What I mean by this is if possible match it with a unit to fight that is big enough to take the full hit. I just had a 43 man calvary unit charge into a 3 man unit with this result when there were plenty of other larger units: "Marshal's Guard (66) score 536 hits on Shield Wall (32) (1814 before overkill)." Since units shuffle their target everyone round, it can be modified to make sure a charging unit really charge. Since the main effectiveness of cavalry is too charge, they wouldn't bother to do that just on three men.
They made a Death or Glory roll.
And failed.
It's extremely hard to turn a cavalry unit--they pretty much have to charge whatever is in front of them.
I'm surprised they didn't split their damage up--is that something that doesn't happen on a charge?
Units only split damage up with the opposing units you are matched with. Since both sides had about the same amount of troops it was mostly 1 to 1.
Opposing forces don't match on a "unit to unit" basis. It's based on a man-to-man ratio. 43:3 is almost 15:1, which is way over the limit. Your unit should have spread that damage over more enemy units, if there were any available. Is it possible that there were no other "free" enemy units? If all the other troops on that line are already engaged, there is a chance that there was just no one else free for your men to hit.
Well my charter got wounded by an infiltrator after so I can't look at the battle report. But I think all troops were engaged on both sides. So I am saying charging cavalry should get first pick at engaging a unit to make sure it is large enough. Otherwise there is an annoying luck factor that the reason for your unit may be pointless.
Well, yes, there is a luck factor involved in battles. Sometimes you get a good charge, and hit the right unit, some times you don't. I don't see anything particularly wrong with that.
I have seen charges into weaker units were the full affect of my charge wasn't needed, but having overkill is ridiculous when there are plenty of other targets. I would think cavalry would only charge if it had a valid target to charge into, and not just 3 guys. The less luck in a game the better, and this is the worst kind of luck.
Quote from: MaleMaldives on December 15, 2011, 10:57:05 PM
I have seen charges into weaker units were the full affect of my charge wasn't needed, but having overkill is ridiculous when there are plenty of other targets. I would think cavalry would only charge if it had a valid target to charge into, and not just 3 guys. The less luck in a game the better, and this is the worst kind of luck.
Think upon a battlefield in real life. Would cavalry charge across their own lines to be able to attack a "worthy" unit. Would they spend the time to retire to the back lines, move around their own army to relocate in a charge position, when doing so may well take so long that the tactical situation has changed? Better to charge that little unit, route them and knock them completely out to the battle as soon as possible and then turn you attention to other targets. Otherwise perhaps cavalry can just sit out the entire battle waiting for a decent target to show up within the part of the line they can reasonably target.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 16, 2011, 12:08:23 AM
Think upon a battlefield in real life. Would cavalry charge across their own lines to be able to attack a "worthy" unit. Would they spend the time to retire to the back lines, move around their own army to relocate in a charge position, when doing so may well take so long that the tactical situation has changed? Better to charge that little unit, route them and knock them completely out to the battle as soon as possible and then turn you attention to other targets. Otherwise perhaps cavalry can just sit out the entire battle waiting for a decent target to show up within the part of the line they can reasonably target.
Sure, you can't really move a charge much once it's started, but you should be able to better aim the charge in general than a 3-man unit, even at a distance. 'cause after all, if you won't be moving your cavalry around constantly for a better angle, they won't be redeploying their units all the time either.
Quote from: Chénier on December 16, 2011, 12:28:01 AM
Sure, you can't really move a charge much once it's started, but you should be able to better aim the charge in general than a 3-man unit, even at a distance. 'cause after all, if you won't be moving your cavalry around constantly for a better angle, they won't be redeploying their units all the time either.
The problem here is battle set up. In real life you place your cavalry in the position you NEED them to be. They don't so much target a "unit" as they target part to the line that you want smashed, opening up a gap to be exploited. BM battles simply don't replicate this so well, a 3 man unit is actually kind of ideal for cavalry to targets, since it would be easy to crush that part of the line, opening a gap for infantry to exploit while the cavalry can ride through and regroup for another charge. Since BM doesn't provide a way to select the position in the line of your troops, luck will be the factor.
Remember in RL you don't position Cavalry to produce the "most kills from hits scored" that is a game mechanic. You place them to maximise the strategic gain of the charge. Depending on the situation this might be targeting the strong middle of the line, it might be exploiting a weak flank, most often it was trying to target the part of the line you are trying to weaken, that way when your archers and infantry has whittled away the troops their a heavy cavalry charge can quickly route them.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 16, 2011, 12:42:43 AM
The problem here is battle set up. In real life you place your cavalry in the position you NEED them to be. They don't so much target a "unit" as they target part to the line that you want smashed, opening up a gap to be exploited. BM battles simply don't replicate this so well, a 3 man unit is actually kind of ideal for cavalry to targets, since it would be easy to crush that part of the line, opening a gap for infantry to exploit while the cavalry can ride through and regroup for another charge. Since BM doesn't provide a way to select the position in the line of your troops, luck will be the factor.
Remember in RL you don't position Cavalry to produce the "most kills from hits scored" that is a game mechanic. You place them to maximise the strategic gain of the charge. Depending on the situation this might be targeting the strong middle of the line, it might be exploiting a weak flank, most often it was trying to target the part of the line you are trying to weaken, that way when your archers and infantry has whittled away the troops their a heavy cavalry charge can quickly route them.
So since BM doesn't replicate real battle that well charging a 3 man unit is pointless where as real life may be good. To compensate for that, cavalry charge where they need to be should be shown by given priority to make sure they do a real charge when possible.
Quote from: MaleMaldives on December 16, 2011, 12:55:16 AM
So since BM doesn't replicate real battle that well charging a 3 man unit is pointless where as real life may be good. To compensate for that, cavalry charge where they need to be should be shown by given priority to make sure they do a real charge when possible.
The same could be said of many instances. A 100 man archer unit targeting a small unit may not maximise efficiency, same with large infantry units. The charge would have targeted adjacent units if they were available, the fact it didn't suggest that your side had more then adequate forces already engaged. Why should the game ensure that cavalry maximise their charge efficiency?
Quote from: De-Legro on December 16, 2011, 12:59:57 AM
The same could be said of many instances. A 100 man archer unit targeting a small unit may not maximise efficiency, same with large infantry units. The charge would have targeted adjacent units if they were available, the fact it didn't suggest that your side had more then adequate forces already engaged. Why should the game ensure that cavalry maximise their charge efficiency?
I can't look at the battle report but the units engaged in I think were matched up mostly 1 to 1 so the reason why there weren't adjacent units available was by the randomness in which it assigns people to fight which is annoying. it doesn't need to maximal a cavalry charge but ensure that it is a real one without overkill when there is no overkill going on any where else in the battle line. The reason why this should be allowed is because cavalry have the unique ability where their first attack is extra strong(maybe besides SF). If an archer units first volley was extra strong, then yeah it would be frustrating it they were dumb enough to aim at the smallest group of units. If the cavalry couldn't do a real charge it would be better to wait then to waste it because then they get chewed up in the normal melee.
Quote from: MaleMaldives on December 16, 2011, 01:34:39 AM
I can't look at the battle report but the units engaged in I think were matched up mostly 1 to 1 so the reason why there weren't adjacent units available was by the randomness in which it assigns people to fight which is annoying. it doesn't need to maximal a cavalry charge but ensure that it is a real one without overkill when there is no overkill going on any where else in the battle line. The reason why this should be allowed is because cavalry have the unique ability where their first attack is extra strong(maybe besides SF). If an archer units first volley was extra strong, then yeah it would be frustrating it they were dumb enough to aim at the smallest group of units. If the cavalry couldn't do a real charge it would be better to wait then to waste it because then they get chewed up in the normal melee.
Yes, it would be, if the intent of the battle code was to attempt to maximise the cavalry charge in all cases by reducing the chance of overkill. I'm not sure that is the intent, nor am I sure that with the current state of the battle code that this change wouldn't break 100 other things. If you want a cavalry charge to not suffer from overkill, position them so they charge before the infantry engage the enemy.
Battles are chaotic. You don't get the chance to study everything and maximize the efficiency of your forces in the middle of combat.
I think the existing behaviour does a good job of representing that.
Though it's not that hard to tell when there's a single guy left in a unit and when there's a huge one. Why? Well, let's say that different nobles do in fact carry different banners in addition to the ones that they have for their armies. Because, you know, nobles are vain. And, you know...This is a game. Let's not be so nitpicky about ultrarealism when it makes for a better game experience otherwise. Otherwise you might want to go outside and join some Medieval re-enacting company or something...Or move to some tourist town that has a Medieval theme, because you'd sure as all heck be taking the whole low fantasy Medieval analogue *game* a bit too seriously, lol.
Ok, anyway, so the point is you CAN in fact tell whose unit is whose (No freaking duh, why else do you have the reports saying so? Ok, I bet someone like Indirik and/or Anaris and/or the big names will definitely have something to say about how it's a bunch of scribes observing from afar, or something else, whatever, I don't care.)
And then, unless your guys are colorblind, or blind, or really nearsighted (All of which are separate problems in themselves) then your cavalry can see who has the big ass unit and who is the Spartan fighting as the last man, and direct their charge accordingly. Yeah, sure, they can't steer too precisely, but they can aim at a general area.
Also, 5 or so guys standing in the path of charging horses that are really targetting the big ass unit behind them aren't going to stop the horses. Not sure if we recall that these warhorses are really powerful and can just stomp over silly footmen. Apparently not the case in BM lol. Infantry are fitted with armor made of superdense polyalloys that would put Master Chief's armor to shame.
Quote from: Artemesia on December 16, 2011, 05:24:11 PM
Though it's not that hard to tell when there's a single guy left in a unit and when there's a huge one. Why? Well, let's say that different nobles do in fact carry different banners in addition to the ones that they have for their armies. Because, you know, nobles are vain. And, you know...This is a game. Let's not be so nitpicky about ultrarealism when it makes for a better game experience otherwise. Otherwise you might want to go outside and join some Medieval re-enacting company or something...Or move to some tourist town that has a Medieval theme, because you'd sure as all heck be taking the whole low fantasy Medieval analogue *game* a bit too seriously, lol.
Ok, anyway, so the point is you CAN in fact tell whose unit is whose (No freaking duh, why else do you have the reports saying so? Ok, I bet someone like Indirik and/or Anaris and/or the big names will definitely have something to say about how it's a bunch of scribes observing from afar, or something else, whatever, I don't care.)
And then, unless your guys are colorblind, or blind, or really nearsighted (All of which are separate problems in themselves) then your cavalry can see who has the big ass unit and who is the Spartan fighting as the last man, and direct their charge accordingly. Yeah, sure, they can't steer too precisely, but they can aim at a general area.
Also, 5 or so guys standing in the path of charging horses that are really targetting the big ass unit behind them aren't going to stop the horses. Not sure if we recall that these warhorses are really powerful and can just stomp over silly footmen. Apparently not the case in BM lol. Infantry are fitted with armor made of superdense polyalloys that would put Master Chief's armor to shame.
You're forgetting (or conveniently ignoring the facts) that if your horses are on the
left and the big enemy unit is on the
right:
- that your diagonal charge will present a larger target to archers
- that your diagnonal charge may require you to trample your own friendly soldiers
- require your unit to turn in a cohesive formation like computerized fighter jets
Would a battlefield with left, right, and center be great? Absolutely. But as long as we have this 2D (or really, 1D, left and right) battlefield, we're going to see this sort of thing occasionally.
lol, look man, in every strategy game there is some balance between realism/features and ability to play the game. Thankfully BM is not a game where people need to play 18/7 to be minimally competent with mechanics and strategies.
Now, how hard would it be to include a separate parameter for target affinity? Not that hard is the answer. Does that mean I can do it myself? Well, give me a month where I don't have to study 8 hours of the day and I'll do it for y'all to prove a layperson could even achieve it.
Quote from: Artemesia on December 16, 2011, 09:10:08 PM
Now, how hard would it be to include a separate parameter for target affinity? Not that hard is the answer.
Bah. Code me one into the battle code, then tell me it's not that hard.
I can barely follow the new combat system's target-finding stuff, and it was my code from design to production.
Quote from: Artemesia on December 16, 2011, 09:10:08 PM
lol, look man, in every strategy game there is some balance between realism/features and ability to play the game. Thankfully BM is not a game where people need to play 18/7 to be minimally competent with mechanics and strategies.
Now, how hard would it be to include a separate parameter for target affinity? Not that hard is the answer. Does that mean I can do it myself? Well, give me a month where I don't have to study 8 hours of the day and I'll do it for y'all to prove a layperson could even achieve it.
I would prefer to see this take a different form. I would like the cavalry to destroy the 3 man unit, and on the next turn, be able to charge again into the archers on the next row back. As long as they defeat their target one turn, they should be able to charge the next turn. This would be realistic and even more useful.
Also, need to get the cavalry to turn around and charge back into the melee when they don't have any targets in front of them.
Quote from: Anaris on December 16, 2011, 09:28:29 PM
Bah. Code me one into the battle code, then tell me it's not that hard.
I can barely follow the new combat system's target-finding stuff, and it was my code from design to production.
Well that would require that I had access to the current code. Otherwise I'd just write a standalone that would work in isolation but might not make sense in the actual context. Meh, not my problem. I pride myself in being one of the guys, completely uninvolved with the veiled developer faction.
Quote from: egamma on December 16, 2011, 09:28:55 PM
I would prefer to see this take a different form. I would like the cavalry to destroy the 3 man unit, and on the next turn, be able to charge again into the archers on the next row back. As long as they defeat their target one turn, they should be able to charge the next turn. This would be realistic and even more useful.
This seems reasonable. If a cavalry
charge destroys or forces a unit to flee it gets to charge on the next turn, no matter whether it moved or not, to represent the cavalry overrunning the first unit and crashing into a second.
I think it is good at it is. I remember when we lost a battle because both our cavalry units charged into one group of angry peasants each. This is as it should be. Spotting where you want to go isn't that easy as this proposal suggests. Historically on occasion screening units were used (an unit deployed thinly along the entire frontline to make it harder to spot how the enemy had deployed their troops).
At least one game I played in the 90's had them so its definitly historically ;)