I've noticed theres been a fair amount of talk recently about fleshing out SMA a little as well as BM culture and I just thought of something simple we can outlaw: the use of the word secularism.
So how about it? Death to secularism.
I believe "paganism and local folklore" would be a more logical target for Dwilight's religions. Personally, I find religion tedious, and I resent it being forced on my character.
Simple
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/FAQ/Tom's_Position_on_Atheism
Secularism is not atheism.
I was refering to this
Quote from: Vaylon Kenadell on December 18, 2011, 10:54:28 PM
I believe "paganism and local folklore" would be a more logical target for Dwilight's religions. Personally, I find religion tedious, and I resent it being forced on my character.
I find that if a character does not wish to belong to a established religion, just claim you belong to some obscure minor religion.
Asylon has no state religion, buts frowned upon not to follow a religion, if a noble isnt apart of the three major religions he would be considered a pagan of sorts , we can't really control whether someone is religious or not . Wish there was a way but thats up to the coders, perhaps upon choosing a realm a second choice should be one of the realms religions.
You could force someone to pick a religion. But you can't force them to actively play the religion, or participate.
Also, given that many players have strong feelings about religion, trying to force them to play in a religion in game may turn them off toward the game overall.
Quote from: Glaumring on December 19, 2011, 01:41:14 AM
we can't really control whether someone is religious or not .
Fine or ban those who do not have a religion.
Quote from: egamma on December 19, 2011, 02:14:03 AM
Fine or ban those who do not have a religion.
Refuse to grant lordships to those without a religion.
Don't vote for those without a religion.
Quote from: Vellos on December 19, 2011, 02:29:38 AM
Refuse to grant lordships to those without a religion.
Don't vote for those without a religion.
ask your lords to boot them out of their estates :)
Why stop there? Let's burn them at the stake while we're at it.
Quote from: Geronus on December 19, 2011, 03:37:35 AM
Why stop there? Let's burn them at the stake while we're at it.
I would if I could ever find the button for that.
Quote from: Indirik on December 19, 2011, 02:04:42 AM
Also, given that many players have strong feelings about religion, trying to force them to play in a religion in game may turn them off toward the game overall.
Fine with me. Better that they don't play than that they ignore something that should be a major part of the game.
Religion was a huge part of the middle ages. If you're not comfortable with religion, don't play a RP game in a middle ages setting.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 19, 2011, 03:44:30 AM
I would if I could ever find the button for that.
We should make that a feature request.
Quote from: BardicNerd on December 19, 2011, 05:33:51 AM
Fine with me. Better that they don't play than that they ignore something that should be a major part of the game.
Religion was a huge part of the middle ages. If you're not comfortable with religion, don't play a RP game in a middle ages setting.
We should make that a feature request.
Yes, because less players is exactly what we need right now...
Quote from: BardicNerd on December 19, 2011, 05:33:51 AM
Fine with me. Better that they don't play than that they ignore something that should be a major part of the game.
Religion was a huge part of the middle ages. If you're not comfortable with religion, don't play a RP game in a middle ages setting.
We should make that a feature request.
Or play on an island that isn't Dwilight.
I don't really want to force nobles out of my realm for not following a religion. They will just go where its more lax, if this was an entire Dwilight idea and enforced by every realm then I would consider it.
Problem is that because religions are island-limited, we have serious issues...I've run into several people who follow their family religion, which just happened to be founded on a different continent. That's perfectly reasonable RP, yet makes them not in a religion on a particular continent.
Quote from: Glaumring on December 19, 2011, 06:19:56 AM
I don't really want to force nobles out of my realm for not following a religion. They will just go where its more lax, if this was an entire Dwilight idea and enforced by every realm then I would consider it.
That is the point, it SHOULD be a SMA issue, so all of Dwilight should be pushing it. But you don't need to belong to an actual religion, so far as I understand it you just can't claim to be atheist. I'm not exactly sure about enforcing non Secularism. Obviously there was no such thing during the middle ages, but the SMA pages are silent on the matter.
Quote from: Bedwyr on December 19, 2011, 06:22:08 AM
Problem is that because religions are island-limited, we have serious issues...I've run into several people who follow their family religion, which just happened to be founded on a different continent. That's perfectly reasonable RP, yet makes them not in a religion on a particular continent.
Can't see a problem with this, they are simply following a religion with no established centres of faith on the continent.
I hate it when people say "there was no such thing during the middle ages" about things like this, with such arrogant assurance that they are right. It's making a broad assumption based on popular notions of what the middle ages were like.
Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on December 19, 2011, 06:56:54 AM
I hate it when people say "there was no such thing during the middle ages" about things like this, with such arrogant assurance that they are right. It's making a broad assumption based on popular notions of what the middle ages were like.
And sometimes, it's making a specific statement based upon research.
Now, this isn't something I've done extensive research on, so I'm not going to make any definitive claims, aside from the fact that 'secularism' did not exist as a word until well after the middle ages. However, it is my impression from what little research I have done that:
A. Some of the underlying thoughts and philosophy existed around the time of the middle ages, BUT
Was in each case at least one of the following:
1. Non-European
2. Extremely late period, more getting into the Renaissance, and not accepted until LATE into the Renaissance
3. Pre-medieval and generally either ignored or reinterpreted in the middle ages
4. Universally condemned, and probably all the writings (and possibly the writer) ordered burned (well, I don't know if the writers were actually burned -- but put on trial and their writings burned, in any case)
5. Not at all about freedom of belief
Some of my characters don't presently follow any religion. That doesn't make them secularists or atheists. Rather I wanted to make those characters with their religious side as a blank, so that they can be convinced by other characters to join their religions.
I don't really want to RP them as "following an obscure family religion", as that would imply they already have a religion, and that any priest preaching to them would by necessity be a bit insulting to their family.
Rather I want to RP them as "I don't know how one preaches to the Gods around here. Please show me. If I agree with your stance, I'll join your church."
Maybe the priests should go around converting more nobles instead of just hitting a button and racking up virtual followers' numbers. I think RP in general is in decline in BM, and because religion heavily relies on that, it's in decline as well.
I haven"t met any priest who ever tried to convert one of my characters out of his/her own initiative. The only religions I'm part of, I joined because I saw a temple in some region by chance, and joined it.
How about offering H/P bonuses for performing certain religious actions? E.g. as a Lord, having x% of your region following your faith would get you a bonus. Or constructing a temple. Or ... (one time only, of course. And there rests the problem I guess: tracking)
I just ordered 2 of my knights (2 diff continents) to join my character's religion. We'll see what happens.
Quote from: Shizzle on December 19, 2011, 09:32:51 AMMaybe the priests should go around converting more nobles instead of just hitting a button and racking up virtual followers' numbers.
That is ... hard.
Actually, no it's not "hard". It's "Bloody well impossible".
I've tried traveling around with a priest trying to gain noble converts. Very, very, very few people respond. Those that do respond, are not interested. If they don't already have a religion, then they aren't interested in joining one.
Some are definitely interested and waiting for someone to come along with a religion that they can happily join.
I've had a nice discussion with a priest in Fissoa recently... Still waiting for a religion to join :)
Then you should probably take some initiative on your own, and send out a feeler or two. I think that the complete lack of response that most people get tends to convince them very quickly that it's a pretty pointless endeavor.
Quote from: Indirik on December 19, 2011, 04:39:03 PM
Then you should probably take some initiative on your own, and send out a feeler or two. I think that the complete lack of response that most people get tends to convince them very quickly that it's a pretty pointless endeavor.
So where's the whole 'priests are a heavily RP-based class' thing going then? Is it dead? Or is writing articles on the Wiki some form of singleplayer RP?
Most religions have like 20 guys following them, tops. New religions are just like, meh, doggy go fetch the bone, ya dig?
Then the big ones are like no one talks as if everyone in the room just got involved with each other's siblings in some weird ecchi way. That or everyone yelling at each other saying stuff like "It's not like I did it for you! Baka inu!" and then pumpsmacking the herbivorous guy into the stratosphere.
Quote from: Shizzle on December 19, 2011, 05:09:40 PMSo where's the whole 'priests are a heavily RP-based class' thing going then? Is it dead? Or is writing articles on the Wiki some form of singleplayer RP?
It's the same place it always has been. It is still a heavy-RP class. As opposed to warriors, who go out and fight battles.
What I meant by that last post was that you rarely see random priests wandering around trying to convert random nobles of other realms, or other faiths, to their own. That's because the success rate is
very low. And if you do something for a while and get no results, you stop doing it.
My character wants religion but is not going to go trawling the world I try to find a suitable one. He has only heard of 2 on Dwilight (one only in that someone mentioned they were in it), how could he make enquiries about any others? As I see it the priests of a religion should make the effort to travel around and convert people. Some will listen, some won't. But it would be out of character for my one to be searching for a religion he doesn't even know exists.
That is true, James. I'm just trying to explain why there are so few, or no, priests running around trying to convert nobles.
Quote from: Indirik on December 19, 2011, 04:18:43 PM
That is ... hard.
Actually, no it's not "hard". It's "Bloody well impossible".
I've tried traveling around with a priest trying to gain noble converts. Very, very, very few people respond. Those that do respond, are not interested. If they don't already have a religion, then they aren't interested in joining one.
One very quickly tires of writing lengthy, persuasive letters about the benefits of joining your religion only to be met with mostly silence or, at best, disdain.
There needs to be an ingame benefit to being in a religion that has a point system or percentage or something, because people love points and stuff...
Quote from: Indirik on December 19, 2011, 04:18:43 PM
That is ... hard.
Actually, no it's not "hard". It's "Bloody well impossible".
I've tried traveling around with a priest trying to gain noble converts. Very, very, very few people respond. Those that do respond, are not interested. If they don't already have a religion, then they aren't interested in joining one.
Very much agreed.
I only keep a priest character for the easier movement. :P
Quote from: Vellos on December 20, 2011, 02:28:41 AM
Very much agreed.
I only keep a priest character for the easier movement. :P
I'm giving it a shot right now. I've actually gotten a response from every noble I've written to so far (half a dozen), with a few potential converts. I think having the Priest be a King helps.
Quote from: Bedwyr on December 20, 2011, 06:40:54 AM
I'm giving it a shot right now. I've actually gotten a response from every noble I've written to so far (half a dozen), with a few potential converts. I think having the Priest be a King helps.
Being the prophet might have something to do with it as well.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 20, 2011, 06:50:56 AM
Being the prophet might have something to do with it as well.
Prophet, King, regionally famous, family name opens doors, religion appeals to a fair number, there's a bit of a religious vacuum, and the Ruler of the realm is in favour of it. Lots of factors going toward success. I'll be interested to see how his efforts in Madina, Aurvandil, the the 'Moot realms go.
Quote from: Bedwyr on December 20, 2011, 06:40:54 AM
I think having the Priest be a King helps.
Yes, I'm quite sure it does.
Another noble conversion to tMP :) Either Koli has unique skills in this regard, or people have discounted the possiblity too easily.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 22, 2011, 02:02:49 AM
Another noble conversion to tMP :) Either Koli has unique skills in this regard, or people have discounted the possiblity too easily.
Probably easier on Dwilight.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 22, 2011, 02:02:49 AM
Either Koli has unique skills in this regard
Or he is also the King.
Or, what, he's wandering around the Lurias and Fissoa right now, right? Southeastern Dwilight has no local dominant faith akin to SA, VE, or Triunism. I expect Koli may find success in Barca too, but probably not in Terran or D'Hara.
Quote from: Vellos on December 22, 2011, 03:41:39 AM
Or he is also the King.
Or, what, he's wandering around the Lurias and Fissoa right now, right? Southeastern Dwilight has no local dominant faith akin to SA, VE, or Triunism. I expect Koli may find success in Barca too, but probably not in Terran or D'Hara.
You are all thinking too small. Zuma are the real prize to convert.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 22, 2011, 03:53:23 AM
You are all thinking too small. Zuma are the real prize to convert.
Convert... to tMP?
That seems..... improbable.
Yeah, everyone knows they are already Astroists. :P
Quote from: Vellos on December 22, 2011, 04:22:24 AM
Convert... to tMP?
That seems..... improbable.
Not if we adopt the tried and tested means of mass conversion, change the religion enough to be palatable to the new converts. Just look at all the pagan baggage Christianity took on board.
Quote from: Vellos on December 22, 2011, 04:22:24 AM
Convert... to tMP?
That seems..... improbable.
Oddly enough, I'm not certain that it's impossible (that tMP could be twisted in a fashion to allow that). If you suggested it
now Koli would laugh. But there's a wide pragmatic streak in the religion, and I think an alliance with the lesser evil is possible.
Quote from: Vellos on December 22, 2011, 03:41:39 AM
Or he is also the King.
Or, what, he's wandering around the Lurias and Fissoa right now, right? Southeastern Dwilight has no local dominant faith akin to SA, VE, or Triunism. I expect Koli may find success in Barca too, but probably not in Terran or D'Hara.
He was also invited to Fissoa by one of the converts, who has been helping prepare the way, and this trip has been under discussion for months.
Quote from: Indirik on December 22, 2011, 04:34:33 AM
Yeah, everyone knows they are already Astroists. :P
I didn't bother to look when I was there. In know that Triunism and Astroism both have strong presences in Zuma lands; not sure who's dominant right now.
Quote from: Vellos on December 22, 2011, 08:29:35 PMIn know that Triunism and Astroism both have strong presences in Zuma lands; not sure who's dominant right now.
Triunism. Then Verdis Elementum. Sanguis Astroism is a distant third.
Any and all faiths are welcome to Asylon its our grand experiment.
Quote from: Glaumring on December 23, 2011, 12:22:53 AM
Any and all faiths are welcome to Asylon its our grand experiment.
There is a difference between allowing religious freedom and Secularism though.
I do not understand how Asylon doesnt fit the definition of secular/ism ... Explain?
Pluralism/diversity is not the same as secularism.
Do you have atheists? Does your government have "separation of church and state"? Last I checked your government actively promoted several religions, and ya'll brag about your religious diversity quite a bit.
Bah now your grasping for straws.
Quote from: Glaumring on December 23, 2011, 04:32:19 PM
Bah now your grasping for straws.
No he isn't, he just read the definition
Secularism is the principle of separation between government institutions and the persons mandated to represent the State from religious institutions and religious dignitaries. In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. (See also Separation of church and state and Laïcité.) In another sense, it refers to the view that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be unbiased by religious influence.[1] (See also public reason.) Some scholars are now arguing that the very idea of secularism will change.[2]
You can easily have a country, with a state religion, that also allows minority religions to exist. Such a country would do things like, have a standard prayer for the sitting of parliament, require mandatory lessons on the state religion in government schools. Perhaps the Clergy of the state religion would form the bulk of the public service or have special ministry roles. So long as the other religions are protected from persecution by law, its still religious freedom.
Quote from: Glaumring on December 23, 2011, 04:32:19 PM
Bah now your grasping for straws.
Lol, he's grasping at straws by stating the simple, and quite clear, difference between secularism in government and just having some religious diversity?
Quote from: De-Legro on December 24, 2011, 02:16:51 AM
You can easily have a country, with a state religion, that also allows minority religions to exist. Such a country would do things like, have a standard prayer for the sitting of parliament, require mandatory lessons on the state religion in government schools. Perhaps the Clergy of the state religion would form the bulk of the public service or have special ministry roles. So long as the other religions are protected from persecution by law, its still religious freedom.
Indeed, this especially even applies to Medieval kingdoms. Look at Spain, a Christian Kingdom that had plenty of Muslims and Jews living in it for a long time, and even had special laws surrounding them/their behavior, etc. (I believe).
Quote from: Perth on December 24, 2011, 02:53:23 AM
Indeed, this especially even applies to Medieval kingdoms. Look at Spain, a Christian Kingdom that had plenty of Muslims and Jews living in it for a long time, and even had special laws surrounding them/their behavior, etc. (I believe).
And which eventually booted most of them out in a remarkably good historical example of what religious repression looks like.
I would have said Moorish Spain for an example, or maybe Sicily, or the treatment of Catholics in the Byzantine Empire.
Asylon has no state endorsed religion, it has 3 religions and truinism within its borders. How is that not secular? The Kingdom does not place one above the other, its sounds like how it is in the states or even Canada to me, both secular states. Its even written in our laws that no religion is above another etc, I even recently tried to hold a religious census and was kindly told to go fly a kite. Sounds secular to me.
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 03:16:10 AM
Asylon has no state endorsed religion, it has 3 religions and truinism within its borders. How is that not secular? The Kingdom does not place one above the other, its sounds like how it is in the states or even Canada to me, both secular states. Its even written in our laws that no religion is above another etc, I even recently tried to hold a religious census and was kindly told to go fly a kite. Sounds secular to me.
Which if you recall was the initial complaint. Secularism doesn't really fit well in a SMA environment.
Yeah, well in order to survive we needed to become what we are now. If we played by true SMA we'd be dead long ago. We adapted and used our culture and environment to make our kingdom survive. Our kingdom is made of Thulsomans, Caerwynians and natural born Asylonians. There are very few kingdoms in Dwilight with such a mishmash of peoples and cultures from completely different places. Plus, Asylon was a small poor and isolated kingdom for much of its existence, we had to be more tolerant to keep our nobles and keep cohesion. So basically take the rigid-SMA and toss it out the window, this is Dwilight...
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 03:25:39 AM
Yeah, well in order to survive we needed to become what we are now. If we played by true SMA we'd be dead long ago. We adapted and used our culture and environment to make our kingdom survive. Our kingdom is made of Thulsomans, Caerwynians and natural born Asylonians. There are very few kingdoms in Dwilight with such a mishmash of peoples and cultures from completely different places. Plus, Asylon was a small poor and isolated kingdom for much of its existence, we had to be more tolerant to keep our nobles and keep cohesion. So basically take the rigid-SMA and toss it out the window, this is Dwilight...
Since the whole CONCEPT of SMA was create for and exist only for Dwilight, it would be rather hard to throw it out the window for the only continent it has relevance to. SMA is not something we borrowed from another source.
Secular though did exist in the medieval age, though the word was created later. I'm not sure it was ever embraced in a meaningful way in Western Europe during the age though.
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 03:25:39 AM
Yeah, well in order to survive we needed to become what we are now. If we played by true SMA we'd be dead long ago. We adapted and used our culture and environment to make our kingdom survive. Our kingdom is made of Thulsomans, Caerwynians and natural born Asylonians. There are very few kingdoms in Dwilight with such a mishmash of peoples and cultures from completely different places. Plus, Asylon was a small poor and isolated kingdom for much of its existence, we had to be more tolerant to keep our nobles and keep cohesion. So basically take the rigid-SMA and toss it out the window, this is Dwilight...
How can you so frequently go around boasting about being the "best role player ever" but not give a rat's ass about SMA?
Boasting? More like joking... You dont honestly take it seriously do you? This is bm and this is dwilight not medieval europe, different histories take different methods of survival in a brutal environment.
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 03:51:53 AM
Boasting? More like joking... You dont honestly take it seriously do you? This is bm and this is dwilight not medieval europe, different histories take different methods of survival in a brutal environment.
Yes, of course I realize its somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But I genuinely thought you were someone who really enjoyed role playing, etc. I don't know, I've never played in a realm with you.
I just figured that someone who loves RP would care a little more about SMA, is all. *shrugs*
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 03:51:53 AM
Boasting? More like joking... You dont honestly take it seriously do you? This is bm and this is dwilight not medieval europe, different histories take different methods of survival in a brutal environment.
You are assuming that survival of a realm takes precedence over SMA. That might be your view, but I seriously doubt it is the view of those that are tasked to maintain the SMA. Given that the only real question is, is secularism allowable within SMA? It certainly isn't something that is covered by the wiki page, and as is true of many of these cases what some believe are obvious SMA violations others believe are not. Without a Titan ruling who can really say.
I do care about SMA, thats why I play on a continent with Daimons and Saxons, star worshippers, bloodmoon fruit eaters (tongue in cheek again)
I think of Asylon like ancient crusade era Isreal, a kind of melting pot of religions and things going on. I know we are not exactly like that era, thats impossible to replicate, but thats basically my idea for Asylon an Isreal type of area, where large amounts of religion and culture are in a nexus point bewteen east and west, north and south. Anyways, thats just my opinion of how I see Asylon a place that is between worlds.
I also lived in Taiwan for 14 years and experienced a lot of what I talking about in regards to a nation torn between so many different cultures and histories and religions existing on one small insignificant island.
These ideas are how I basically shape my RP and SMA on Dwilight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_states
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan
Quote from: De-Legro on December 24, 2011, 04:14:46 AM
You are assuming that survival of a realm takes precedence over SMA. That might be your view, but I seriously doubt it is the view of those that are tasked to maintain the SMA. Given that the only real question is, is secularism allowable within SMA? It certainly isn't something that is covered by the wiki page, and as is true of many of these cases what some believe are obvious SMA violations others believe are not. Without a Titan ruling who can really say.
It seems to me to be very case-by-case.
I find the idea of Asylon as secular to be funny. They actively market themselves based on their religion; their previous queen included, in her reasons for signing a treaty with Terran, our positive outlook on Sanguis Astroism.
A secular state stays out of religious affairs. Asylon does not. It's last two rulers have been active members of the same religion, and at least its previous one was not shy about it at all, at least not with foreigners.
Asylon might be tolerant and pluralist... but secular it is not.
Terran, however, is not pluralist, not particularly tolerant, and not particularly secular. We allow two religions. Both have formal state support. Anything else we reserve the right to very, very tightly restrict. And the income of those religions from Terran each week is a statistically significant share of our tax revenues.
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 04:18:59 AM
I do care about SMA, thats why I play on a continent with Daimons and Saxons, star worshippers, bloodmoon fruit eaters (tongue in cheek again)
I think of Asylon like ancient crusade era Isreal, a kind of melting pot of religions and things going on. I know we are not exactly like that era, thats impossible to replicate, but thats basically my idea for Asylon an Isreal type of area, where large amounts of religion and culture are in a nexus point bewteen east and west, north and south. Anyways, thats just my opinion of how I see Asylon a place that is between worlds.
I also lived in Taiwan for 14 years and experienced a lot of what I talking about in regards to a nation torn between so many different cultures and histories and religions existing on one small insignificant island.
These ideas are how I basically shape my RP and SMA on Dwilight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_states
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan
Thus I refer you to the SMA definition
Quote
Non-European Realm/Religion Concepts
While these are acceptable on other islands, we are very, very sceptical about them on any island where we are looking for a serious medieval atmosphere. Some will be ok, a little bit of orient can spice things up, but the vast majority would only dilute and disturb the atmosphere. That goes especially for any asian or american concepts. Basically anything that the middle ages did not have much contact with. Again, there are other islands in BattleMaster where these ideas can be explored.
There is still an incredibly broad and deep variety of themes and cultures in Medieval Europe that you can draw inspiration from (Spaniards, Greeks, Baltics, Eastern European Cultures). There is quite enough variety without having to blend cultures that realistically never would've had much to do with one another. A little bit of research will turn up a lot of results.
This also extends to political concepts - if you insist on being the Socialist Knight you will probably be stripped of your title. Likewise, the Government System Wiki Page points out that Democracies are not like modern Democracies - they are more akin to the Parliaments of Medieval England than anything you would see today. So when you talk about "Democratic" ideals - be sure that you understand just what sort of Democracy you're touting.
You might find your ideas of basing a realm on crusade Isreal fall prey to the non-european clause, much like Chenier's rather detailed and excellent plans for a mesoamerica based realm did. The crusader states are obviously in a different league to that, being Medieval Europe certainty had contact with them. Whether that means they qualify as European Concept I don't know.
However you did miss an important fact. Crusader states were religion TOLERANT, not generally secular. They were controlled by Christian Lords and this greatly influenced the government.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 24, 2011, 04:14:46 AM
You are assuming that survival of a realm takes precedence over SMA.
This is good point. Wouldn't it be equivalent to saying, "Well, my Noble needs to run around spouting about the glory of the Holy Squirrel's Doughnut Stache, because even if it isn't quite SMA, people think its funny thus it creates a good realm atmosphere which is essential to ensuring my small realm doesn't dwindle out of existence."
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 04:18:59 AM
I do care about SMA, thats why I play on a continent with Daimons and Saxons, star worshippers, bloodmoon fruit eaters (tongue in cheek again)
I think of Asylon like ancient crusade era Isreal, a kind of melting pot of religions and things going on. I know we are not exactly like that era, thats impossible to replicate, but thats basically my idea for Asylon an Isreal type of area, where large amounts of religion and culture are in a nexus point bewteen east and west, north and south. Anyways, thats just my opinion of how I see Asylon a place that is between worlds.
I also lived in Taiwan for 14 years and experienced a lot of what I talking about in regards to a nation torn between so many different cultures and histories and religions existing on one small insignificant island.
These ideas are how I basically shape my RP and SMA on Dwilight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_states
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan
This is awesome and that is great. It's definitely a cool way to think of Asylon and an awesome IG cultural goal to strive for. I love it, keep going with it. I definitely have a positive outlook on Asylon (as a player) and am glad for what they do there for Dwilight.
However, we were discussing differences between just wanting to be religiously diverse and being secular. I don't think anyone would describe the Crusade Era Holy Land as "secular." It has more religious issues and conflicts tied to it than any almost any other place on earth. You could describe it as whole lot of things, I personally don't think secular would be one of them.
We have had 2 VE kings in our time. Also in international affairs we will play up certain aspects of our traditions, if we lean too far VE or SA we could have been dead crushed in the past.
I do not see Asylons acceptance of varied religions in its kingdoms as being anti-SMA, I see it as being MEDIEVAL with a DWILIGHT flavour added in. Its impossible to be full on SMA in Dwilight and I wouldn't want it to be that way anyways, this is a low-FANTASY- game with Daimons and monsters attacks and stuff like that , use your imagination, lets not copy the history books, lets use them as a guide and create our own unique and interesting world.
The Romans were in the middle-east for a long long time, I would say that the Israel area was probably very used to Europeans being there.
Anyways, I understand what you guys are saying now about secular etc, Asylon is not secular, it is merely a tolerant monarchy that because of historical reasons and a mixed population has not put as much weight on state religion. Even though it may lean ever which way depending on who is in power at the time, kind of like Scotland and England.
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 04:32:35 AM
We have had 2 VE kings in our time. Also in international affairs we will play up certain aspects of our traditions, if we lean too far VE or SA we could have been dead crushed in the past.
I do not see Asylons acceptance of varied religions in its kingdoms as being anti-SMA, I see it as being MEDIEVAL with a DWILIGHT flavour added in. Its impossible to be full on SMA in Dwilight and I wouldn't want it to be that way anyways, this is a low-FANTASY- game with Daimons and monsters attacks and stuff like that , use your imagination, lets not copy the history books, lets use them as a guide and create our own unique and interesting world.
Again, you completely miss the difference between religious tolerance, which is by no means unique to Ayslon on Dwilight, and secularism. PeL also allows multiple (though not all) religions. However the King is also the prophet of one religion, and Government actions and polices will reflect this. To be secular the King would have to "remove" himself from religion when making Realm Policy, so as to ensure his religious beliefs and responsibilities due not influence his government ones.
Also how is it impossible to be FULLY SMA on Dwilight. The whole definition of SMA revolves around Dwilight and its low fantasy setting. It is impossible for Dwilight to be a medieval simulation or recreation, but that is not what SMA is. SMA by it's defintion is Medevial with Dwilight flavor. Otherwise we obviously would have Christianity dominating the island.
Quote from: De-Legro on December 24, 2011, 04:40:18 AM
Again, you completely miss the difference between religious tolerance, which is by no means unique to Ayslon on Dwilight, and secularism. PeL also allows multiple (though not all) religions. However the King is also the prophet of one religion, and Government actions and polices will reflect this. To be secular the King would have to "remove" himself from religion when making Realm Policy, so as to ensure his religious beliefs and responsibilities due not influence his government ones.
Also how is it impossible to be FULLY SMA on Dwilight. The whole definition of SMA revolves around Dwilight and its low fantasy setting. It is impossible for Dwilight to be a medieval simulation or recreation, but that is not what SMA is. SMA by it's defintion is Medevial with Dwilight flavor. Otherwise we obviously would have Christianity dominating the island.
Understood. Am I still the best roleplayer and most awesome on Dwilight? 8)
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 04:41:36 AM
Understood. Am I still the best roleplayer and most awesome on Dwilight? 8)
Just get someone to update the Ducal Accords so it doesn't claim Asylon is a secular nation :)
Whats the ducal accords?!??!?
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 04:47:27 AM
Whats the ducal accords?!??!?
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Asylon/Ducal_Accords
Oh those ducal accords. I knew that. 8)
Those are new we can change wording if it hurts peoples feelers lol
Quote from: Glaumring on December 24, 2011, 05:10:32 AM
Oh those ducal accords. I knew that. 8)
Those are new we can change wording if it hurts peoples feelers lol
Bah, I fixed it.