I just noticed this today:
--------
You have reached the medium temple of the order "The Path Of Chivalry". There is a sign next to the entrance reading:
The Path Of Chivalry
The first organization of Oritolon, we are not what you might call a true religion.
The path of chivalry offers protection from enemy religions while supporting the beliefs of power and goodness in Oritolon
-------
This bugs me...seems athiestic, for one. And it says that they exist just to prevent enemy religions from being used against them.
:P
If its not on Dwilight, its unfortunately allowed no? Which does seem a darn shame.
Religion for self-defense is how quite a few religions got formed. It is still very common, if not so blatantly advertised.
Quote from: Indirik on January 13, 2012, 04:34:41 PM
Religion for self-defense is how quite a few religions got formed. It is still very common, if not so blatantly advertised.
Sure, but they should at least
pretend to be a real religion.
Yeah that's not okay in my book.
What bugs me are the "atheist" or agnostic nobles in BM. Completely unrealistic. Everybody believed in something in the Middle ages, whether it was your personal house gods, some great pantheon, or the Judeo-Christian God.
Anyways, I don't think the great Tee-hom will intervene here unless it's on Dwilght.
Hmmmm...anyone here a professor of Medieval Studies and/or European Religious Studies?
I seem to recall rare instances of persecution against atheists in Medieval Europe...
Can't persecute something if it doesn't exist?
I have to agree with Artemesia, it seems to me that people are making sweeping generalizations that they shouldn't be making...
From good old wikipedia
" Philosophical atheist thought appears in Europe and Asia from the sixth or fifth century BCE."
"n medieval Islam, scholars recognized the idea of atheism, and frequently attacked unbelievers, although they were unable to name any atheists.[26] When individuals were accused of atheism, they were usually viewed as heretics rather than proponents of atheism.[27] One notable figure was the ninth century scholar Ibn al-Rawandi who criticized the notion of religious prophecy including that of Muhammad, and maintained that religious dogmas were not acceptable to reason and must be rejected.[28] Other critics of religion in the Islamic world include the physician and philosopher Abu Bakr al-Razi (865–925), and the poet Al-Ma`arri (973–1057).
In the European Middle Ages, no clear expression of atheism is known. The titular character of the Icelandic saga Hrafnkell, written in the late thirteenth century, says that I think it is folly to have faith in gods. After his temple to Freyr is burnt and he is enslaved, he vows never to perform another sacrifice, a position described in the sagas as goðlauss "godless". Jacob Grimm in his Teutonic Mythology observes that
It is remarkable that Old Norse legend occasionally mentions certain men who, turning away in utter disgust and doubt from the heathen faith, placed their reliance on their own strength and virtue. Thus in the Sôlar lioð 17 we read of Vêbogi and Râdey â sik þau trûðu, "in themselves they trusted",[29]
citing several other examples, including two kings.
In Christian Europe, people were persecuted for heresy, especially in countries where the Inquisition was active. However, Thomas Aquinas' five proofs of God's existence and Anselm's ontological argument implicitly acknowledged the validity of the question about god's existence. The charge of atheism was used as way of attacking one's political or religious enemies. Pope Boniface VIII, because he insisted on the political supremacy of the church, was accused by his enemies after his death of holding (unlikely) atheistic positions such as "neither believing in the immortality nor incorruptibility of the soul, nor in a life to come."[30]"
Of course it is wikipedia as a source, I don't have time right now to check the validity of the sources or the interpretations.
Honestly, it's likely that those professing atheism or agnosticism in game should be viewed as touched in the head and not fit to take care of themselves, let alone command troops or rule over regions or kingdoms.
Yes, but it should be taken care of IC. Not some arbitrary OOC ban of it.
Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on January 14, 2012, 06:16:40 AM
Yes, but it should be taken care of IC. Not some arbitrary OOC ban of it.
People are too pragmatic in the way they deal with religion ingame. Most people would simply tolerate it, which is why Tom enforces the rule.
What's more, I don't think I can name a single member of European high nobility that professed to atheism, especially since it was through "divine right" that they ruled in the first place.
The emperors of the Holy Roman Empire were elected (not by the common populace, of course). So don't give me that Divine Right crap. It wasn't completely true.
Elected by people who believed they had Divine Right themselves... Which would make the Emperor most obviously backed by God.
Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on January 14, 2012, 06:35:04 AM
The emperors of the Holy Roman Empire were elected (not by the common populace, of course). So don't give me that Divine Right crap. It wasn't completely true.
And backed by the Pope ( depending on the age) If that enough to claim divine right I don't know what is. However that said, the concept of divine right was developed about midway through the medieval era. Before that good old might is right was enough.
Quote from: egamma on January 13, 2012, 03:24:36 PM
The first organization of Oritolon, we are not what you might call a true religion.
The path of chivalry offers protection from enemy religions while supporting the beliefs of power and goodness in Oritolon
It seems so easy to replace this by "The Path of chivalry professes worship of the state and its Divine Ruler."
the difference of doing the same thing with and without spin
Quote from: fodder on January 14, 2012, 01:27:46 PM
the difference of doing the same thing with and without spin
Or, y'know, instead of "spin" you could call it "Roleplay".
But that's just crazy-talk.
Yeah, making it state worship would be pretty legitimate. Kind of like the Papal States or the Roman cult of the imperator.
As long as it can be roleplayed legitimately and not solely used as a tool of the players to powergame, It's ok in my book.
Quote from: vonGenf on January 14, 2012, 12:30:24 PM
It seems so easy to replace this by "The Path of chivalry professes worship of the state and its Divine Ruler."
And I would be fine with that. But the bulletin has it currently reads is a mixture of IC and OOC. I guess I'll write the elders.
Hmm, let me reply as my character May Ketchum, 1 of the elder member and a priestess of Path of Chivalry religion, as in OOC.
Nope, I think you do not get the complete picture of Path of Chivalry. Have you known the true history of how Path of Chivalry was founded, you wont say such thing here. Yes, maybe there are part of the Member Rank need to be changed, but I choose to leave that for later.
Allow me to give you a short brief history of Path of Chivalry and why its description was there.
Do you know Erisha Da Hadez? The founder of Path of Chivalry religion in Oritolon. The religion was formed to combat and mitigate the effects from former priests of 2 fallen realms of Alebad realm and Alowca realm.
Quote from: Ketchum on January 15, 2012, 04:32:08 AM
The religion was formed to combat and mitigate the effects from former priests of 2 fallen realms of Alebad realm and Alowca realm.
That's fine, just don't
state it that way in the game.
just change a few words and everyones happy? i think i'll start a religion called facadism dedicated to applying veneers in order to sate the try-hard die-hards.
Quote from: Kai on January 15, 2012, 02:02:17 PM
just change a few words and everyones happy? i think i'll start a religion called facadism dedicated to applying veneers in order to sate the try-hard die-hards.
I sure hope no one actually believes any of the in-game religions. They're all made up. However, when you make one up, it is worth it to make it up well.
Quote from: vonGenf on January 15, 2012, 02:23:16 PM
I sure hope no one actually believes any of the in-game religions. They're all made up. However, when you make one up, it is worth it to make it up well.
Yes, or at least make it fully IC.
Quote from: Indirik on January 13, 2012, 04:34:41 PM
Religion for self-defense is how quite a few religions got formed. It is still very common, if not so blatantly advertised.
They are just openly admitting what everyone is doing. If you want to punish them, then punish the others' extremely thinly veiled non-religion religion.
I'd rather action be taken against all hollow religions, instead of those that lack the hypocrisy to claim they aren't one.
Not only is the Path of Chivalry a rubbish religion, it's even a rubbish state religion. There's a joining fee of 25 gold for any new members. It has the same feeling as the Valentic Order on it's last legs - it's the personal fiefdom of one or two players who just sit back and use it as a gold farm. I agree that the Colonies is not exactly bursting at the seams with dynamic, intra-realm faiths, but at least faiths like 'Shadowism' have a bit of character and a little RP behind them. The potential to succeed beyond the borders of the realm where it was born.
The Path of Chivalry (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Path_of_Chivalry)
This description is still not great, but on the wiki Da Hadez did make at least some effort to dress it up a little more nicely. But yeah, I find it sad that in response to the developed religions of Alowca and Alebad - which had been RPed even before religions were introduced as a mechanic - this was all Oritolon could come up with :-\