Allow the ruler to create customary titles. Although the titles will be have no game mechanics, except perhaps a little gold and prestige boost, they could have large roleplay potential. Nobles who are appointed to these titles should bear them in their messages. So for example:
King's Guardian: The title
This nobleman has been appointed as a loyal and courageous warrior to defend the king: A short description
+10 gold a week: Gold income from the ruler or realm's treasury.
A King's Guardian has been appointed for this role for life: Title's should be customizable. Ruler should be able to appoint them, or a title could be elected by the nobles in a similar manner to lordships. Also it should be possible to set a max amount of this type of title to be handed out.
I think this way battlemaster can create a "catch all" system for other types of positions we might want to customize into our realm. Perhaps there should be a maximum number of titles to create based on the size of the realm's nobles so that a realm doesn't go crazy to give every noble a personal title.
This sounds like CK2 thing. It would be cool to have one though.
Something like 'Prime Knight' - Given to the best and most honourable knight in the realm.
Everyone gets a title!
Some kind of title like that does sound interesting. But I think you'd need some big controls on it to prevent things like everyone in the realm getting a title. Titles should mean something. If everyone has one, they are seriously devalued.
limit it to 3 or 4?
best knight, richest man and holiest man?
Quote from: Zakilevo on February 16, 2012, 07:14:58 PM
limit it to 3 or 4?
best knight, richest man and holiest man?
Oooh! I know!
General, Judge, Banker, and Marshal!
Quote from: Indirik on February 16, 2012, 07:13:39 PM
Everyone gets a title!
Some kind of title like that does sound interesting. But I think you'd need some big controls on it to prevent things like everyone in the realm getting a title. Titles should mean something. If everyone has one, they are seriously devalued.
Considering how all the player characters are supposed to be the creme de la creme, is it really that bad if there's a bit of title dilution?
You can already do this in guilds. While I see the allure of porting that system to realms, I also think that it's nice that the feudal hierarchy is not a free for all.
Quote from: Zakilevo on February 16, 2012, 07:14:58 PM
limit it to 3 or 4?
best knight, richest man and holiest man?
These sound more like game achievements than medieval titles.
Quote from: Perth on February 16, 2012, 08:01:42 PM
These sound more like game achievements than medieval titles.
Just suggestions. but I think we should just only have 'Prime Knight' :D
Quote from: Zakilevo on February 16, 2012, 08:21:55 PM
Just suggestions. but I think we should just only have 'Prime Knight' :D
If he is such a good Knight, why not just make him a Lord or a Marshal, then?
I don't think people are getting what he is saying. This isn't an achievement kind of goal, this is more like an honor bestowed upon the realm. Think more along the lines of "Captain of the Royal Guard" or some such thing.
Quote from: Indirik on February 16, 2012, 07:13:39 PM
Some kind of title like that does sound interesting. But I think you'd need some big controls on it to prevent things like everyone in the realm getting a title. Titles should mean something. If everyone has one, they are seriously devalued.
I think the gold thing would limit it effectively. Make a minimum 25 gold a week stipend with the title (max could be whatever). That way the Ruler can create as many titles as he cares to support.
Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on February 16, 2012, 08:40:07 PM
I don't think people are getting what he is saying. This isn't an achievement kind of goal, this is more like an honor bestowed upon the realm. Think more along the lines of "Captain of the Royal Guard" or some such thing.
Form an army called the Royal Guard, make him Marshal. Just saying.
I am not against the idea, but since titles are already customisable it would be very confusing to figure out what positions actually have power and which are just empty titles.
well any title will give the person a certain degree of power I think. There is power in every title. People will consider the words of someone with even an honourary title more than one without a title.
This will also give more power to the ruler I think. He is literally buying loyalty of people with gold. With the government gold distribution system gone, I think it would be good to have something to replace that.
Now, I like this idea, but not necessarily in its current form.
It should be heavily limited, but there should be some free-form customization with drawbacks.
THe reason that I was thinking something like this would be cool, is because I wanted to send one of my characters to another realm, and have them be able to be given an official title within the new realm such as:
Character X is "Emissary/Honored Representative of Keplerstan" while a member of the realm of Evilstan. The Evilstan ruler could give him this title, while the character would be a game mechanics member of the realm of Evilstan to keep a check on things either for peaceful diplomatic reasons, or because Keplerstan doesn't want Evilstan backstabbing them, so they send an official representative to keep a watch on things.
I'm not wholly against the idea either, however it does need some specificity and a very narrowed down range of things that can be done with it. The whole achievement theme that has been going on so far makes me want to vomit a little.
And frankly, as I sit here briefly trying to think of ways such custom titles could be used in ways that you can't already do via how titles currently work, I am strapped to think of any.
Honestly, it more comes down to the fact that if someone is really that worthy of a title, or if you really want to earn someone's loyalty that badly, just find a way to give them a title. And if you aren't really wanting to hand that person much power, yes, there are existing titles to be given out that will not give them much power.
Personally, I'd like to see something like this added for the simple reason is that our former monarchs in Westmoor are called Princes or Princesses as a nod to their service, no matter what other title they have. Yeah, they have the "Royal" flag (unless they left and came back, as was the case with Evangeline Uceek once before), but that doesn't have enough of a nod to their service, IMO.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on February 16, 2012, 11:04:59 PM
Personally, I'd like to see something like this added for the simple reason is that our former monarchs in Westmoor are called Princes or Princesses as a nod to their service, no matter what other title they have. Yeah, they have the "Royal" flag (unless they left and came back, as was the case with Evangeline Uceek once before), but that doesn't have enough of a nod to their service, IMO.
Ah, this would be a very good use of the idea, I think.
Not just for retired monarchs, either. The ruling Monarch could use it to denote a "chosen" successor. Whether people choose to recognize that blessing when the time comes, however, it up to them.
Suggested rules:
1. Only the current Ruler can create honorary titles.
2. Creating an honorary title costs the Ruler 10 prestige and 50 gold. Revoking the title does not give you the prestige or the money back.
3. The title becomes a property of the recipient. So if the Ruler dies/pauses/leaves, the title remains. However, the title goes away if the title holder dies/pauses/leaves.
4. Honorary titles are non-transferable.
5. Only the current Ruler can revoke honorary titles (not necessarily the same noble who granted them).
It shouldn't cost the ruler prestige. Why would it need to cost anything anyway? It is just a title without any real power.
Maybe some gold for the paperwork, but not prestige...
Could limit the number of titles the ruler can create to his prestige. One title per every 10 or 20 prestige, say.
Then there should be more ways for non-warriors to get prestige.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on February 17, 2012, 02:36:53 AM
Then there should be more ways for non-warriors to get prestige.
Why? It is a game centred around battles. Surely given that fighting battles should be the most effective way to increase prestige.
QuoteBattleMaster is a team-oriented browsergame merging strategy and roleplaying.
From the main page itself. It might be called BattleMaster, but there is far more to it than simply mindlessly riding off into combat. I dislike, intensely dislike, playing as a warrior. I mugh prefer playing a priest. Just as there are others who prefer playing as courtiers, traders, etc. The game is not warrior focused, nor should it be if it's a RPG. There are many types of battles (be it with swords, words, or cash), just as there are many types of strategy.
BattleMaster is not solely a game about armed warfare.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on February 17, 2012, 02:58:43 AM
From the main page itself. It might be called BattleMaster, but there is far more to it than simply mindlessly riding off into combat. I dislike, intensely dislike, playing as a warrior. I mugh prefer playing a priest. Just as there are others who prefer playing as courtiers, traders, etc. The game is not warrior focused, nor should it be if it's a RPG. There are many types of battles (be it with swords, words, or cash), just as there are many types of strategy.
BattleMaster is not solely a game about armed warfare.
No its no, notice I never said it was SOLELY about warfare. I said that is the focus, or main component if you will. Thus my comment that it makes sense for battle to be the MOST effective way to gain prestige, and not some half arsed position that it be the ONLY way to gain prestige.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on February 16, 2012, 11:04:59 PM
Personally, I'd like to see something like this added for the simple reason is that our former monarchs in Westmoor are called Princes or Princesses as a nod to their service, no matter what other title they have. Yeah, they have the "Royal" flag (unless they left and came back, as was the case with Evangeline Uceek once before), but that doesn't have enough of a nod to their service, IMO.
This gave me an idea, but it's so simple that I don't think it deserves its own thread. Perhaps the Royal condition could be a little improved:
1) If character leaves the realm and return, he remains a Royal. Why would have he lost the title?
2) The Royal epithet gets attached to any of his titles when signing letters, making him more prominent (Royal Knight, Royal Lord, Royal Duke).
Quote from: Bedwyr on February 16, 2012, 09:15:44 PM
I think the gold thing would limit it effectively. Make a minimum 25 gold a week stipend with the title (max could be whatever). That way the Ruler can create as many titles as he cares to support.
Isn't the idea of being payed for honorary titles more something Louis XIV-ish? It would tie nobles more strongly to the (absolutist) monarch, instead of promoting the urge for personal power we see in more Medieval times.
I agree that such titles could add some flavour, but it would disrupt the game setting. How cool will it be to become Lord of Rural, compared to Royal High Commander of the Kepler Corps?
Guild titles do just fine, imho. High officials of powerful guilds will command enough respect with their title, even outside their guild setting. Ceremonial titles without any game mechanics basis seem kind of .. discouraging for those not in the realm's in-crowd, as well. Read newbies.
I dislike the idea of purely honorary titles.
And I don't think there really were all that many around in historic times. The "captain of the guard" still had the guard under his command, it was not an empty title.
And I want people to fight over scarce titles, because it creates conflict within realms.
What about this then: create a new, single government position with no game mechanic behind it. Having this position gives you only two things: access to the realm council as a Ruler's trusted advisor, and a cool signature.
In some realm this will be "Marshal of the Royal Bodyguards", others it will be "Prime Knight", an other one will be "Honored Representative of Keplerstan". It doesn't matter, since the position does not give access to any buttons anyway.
I wrote my previous comment before I saw yours (I was not my intention to simply say the inverse of what you said!)
Quote from: Tom on February 17, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
And I want people to fight over scarce titles, because it creates conflict within realms.
I agree with this. I do not think there is a lack of titles available overall.
Quote from: JPierreD on February 17, 2012, 05:41:32 AM
This gave me an idea, but it's so simple that I don't think it deserves its own thread. Perhaps the Royal condition could be a little improved:
1) If character leaves the realm and return, he remains a Royal. Why would have he lost the title?
2) The Royal epithet gets attached to any of his titles when signing letters, making him more prominent (Royal Knight, Royal Lord, Royal Duke).
Would certainly agree with something like this. Especially when there are many times people accidentally change realms (region turn overs, etc)
Quote from: vonGenf on February 17, 2012, 12:10:02 PM
What about this then: create a new, single government position with no game mechanic behind it. Having this position gives you only two things: access to the realm council as a Ruler's trusted advisor, and a cool signature.
In some realm this will be "Marshal of the Royal Bodyguards", others it will be "Prime Knight", an other one will be "Honored Representative of Keplerstan". It doesn't matter, since the position does not give access to any buttons anyway.
I think it is a great idea as most rulers did have an advisor. It wouldn't be purely honor if you actually advised the ruler and the position should be chosen by the ruler in all government types. Instead of nothing happening you could let them view all the information of the realm council positions but have no control or can have some control but it must be granted by the regular position holder. That way your advisor is informed but not controlling everything.
Quote from: Penchant on February 17, 2012, 09:00:34 PMI think it is a great idea as most rulers did have an advisor.
All rulers have three advisors: General, Judge, and Banker. If you want them to be appointed, then change the government style to Appoint instead of Elect. We don't need to add more convoluted game mechanics to make this happen.
Quote from: Indirik on February 17, 2012, 09:08:54 PM
All rulers have three advisors: General, Judge, and Banker. If you want them to be appointed, then change the government style to Appoint instead of Elect. We don't need to add more convoluted game mechanics to make this happen.
Rulers could also dismiss their advisors, traditionally. :P
Create a message group title Royal Advisors. Add and remove as needed. Sure, you don't get the fancy title, but oh well. I still don't see any particular need to create some messy game mechanics to support it.
Quote from: Bedwyr on February 16, 2012, 09:15:44 PM
I think the gold thing would limit it effectively. Make a minimum 25 gold a week stipend with the title (max could be whatever). That way the Ruler can create as many titles as he cares to support.
Didn't read the whole thread, but this would be a way forward.
Having the ability to automatically transfer funds like that based on loyalty would be a great convenience. If you changed it from a fixed sum to a percentage, it would limit even city-rulers, AND, city-rulers would be disproportionately powerful. Imagine if, as ruler, you could hand out titles equal to 5-10% of your income on a regular, automatic basis, that would also award someone a neat title on their name.
IMHO, if it creates a little bit of rank proliferation, that is GOOD. In gameplay terms, rewards encourage players to invest. "Leveling up" in other games is largely about motivating players. Having some more titles, that don't endanger the realm much if they're mishandled, would be neat. I would see them being used in royal marriages particularly.
In roleplay terms... go look up Medieval courts. Proliferation of titles is good RP. EVERYONE had a bazillion titles. I happen to have a particular fondness for Byzantine nomenclature: they had scores of different ranks and titles that were awarded.
Good roleplay; moderate, useful, not obviously exploitable mechanism; likely to motivate players and enable new low- and mid-level conflicts? Sounds like a good change to me.
Quote from: Tom on February 17, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
And I don't think there really were all that many around in historic times. The "captain of the guard" still had the guard under his command, it was not an empty title.
And I want people to fight over scarce titles, because it creates conflict within realms.
Yeah, yeah, it's wikipedia, but whatever:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_aristocracy_and_bureaucracy
The title of
doorkeeper was an honorific in the Byzantine Empire.
Or think of how the title of "Mayor of the Palace" metamorphed from 500 AD to 1000 AD.
Also, fighting over scarce titles only usually happens among people who have
other titles. That is, to fight, you need power. While an honorifc doesn't grant button-power, again, it can motivate players, and seeing a title on a message can lead people to listen more.
Indeed, I personally would think that some honorifics would be more contested than, say, lordships. They might have cooler names, less duties, and could still pay if we attached an automatic gold transfer. I know that I am an avid cool-title hunter. With new honorifics floating around, trying to have my characters acquire different honorifics would be awesome.
A problem would be message sig length; somebody who was lord, duke, and had an honorific... sending a message in a guild... it'd be crazy. Maybe there should be a check-box for sigs?
Quote from: Zakilevo on February 17, 2012, 01:15:00 AM
It shouldn't cost the ruler prestige. Why would it need to cost anything anyway? It is just a title without any real power.
To make them scarce. Gold is a plentiful resource in this game by design. If you make the titles cost less than 100 gold, in a few months, half of the nobles in your realm would be walking around with honorary titles. And when most nobles have an honorary title, nobody does. If you make them have an absurdly high gold cost, people would just start pulling resources away from fighting wars (you know, the fun part?) to fund titles.
There should never be more than two or three honorary titles in a medium-sized realm. Otherwise you're just handing them out like candy at Halloween, not some special honor.
Actually, forget it. I'm opposing this idea, because the motivation behind this seems not to be "let's reward this awesome noble in our realm" and more about "waaah why are there only four council positions, everyone deserves to be a special snowflake".
I recently gave titles to a bunch of people as reward for good recruiting. (on the eve of war)
It would have been cool if I could actually give them those titles (or have my king give them) but on the other hand, the insignia would probably get very lengthy. I just listed them in the general bulletin. I don't know if anyone cares about them but oh well. :)
Quote from: vonGenf on February 17, 2012, 12:10:02 PM
What about this then: create a new, single government position with no game mechanic behind it. Having this position gives you only two things: access to the realm council as a Ruler's trusted advisor, and a cool signature.
In some realm this will be "Marshal of the Royal Bodyguards", others it will be "Prime Knight", an other one will be "Honored Representative of Keplerstan". It doesn't matter, since the position does not give access to any buttons anyway.
Pretty much like an honest Banker, huh?
I want to be able to appoint someone Groom of the Stool...
http://jimsmuse.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/groom-of-the-stool/ (http://jimsmuse.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/groom-of-the-stool/)
Quote from: GoldPanda on February 17, 2012, 10:58:14 PM
To make them scarce. Gold is a plentiful resource in this game by design. If you make the titles cost less than 100 gold, in a few months, half of the nobles in your realm would be walking around with honorary titles. And when most nobles have an honorary title, nobody does. If you make them have an absurdly high gold cost, people would just start pulling resources away from fighting wars (you know, the fun part?) to fund titles.
That's why you have a continuing cost. And if you have too many, then the realms with lots of titles lose to realms without lots of titles, unless the titles make nobles more engaged...Either way it's a win-win to me.
Quote from: Bedwyr on February 18, 2012, 08:32:10 PM
That's why you have a continuing cost. And if you have too many, then the realms with lots of titles lose to realms without lots of titles, unless the titles make nobles more engaged...Either way it's a win-win to me.
Do you mean a continuous
cost or a continuous
transfer? As in, gold destroyed, or gold simply transferred to the holder?
I would favor something like an automatic transfer of X% of ruler's tax income (thus fixing the max positions awardable), with Y% of that transfer lost to corruption. So maybe an honorific would come with 10% of the ruler's tax income, and have a 20% loss to corruption. If the ruler earns 200 gold; that's 16 extra gold to the honoree each week, and 4 gold lost. Not a huge sum, but, with a richer ruler or a large honorific share, it could be substantive.
Any title already used in-game shouldn't be used for this Honorary/Ceremonial Titles suggestion. And nothing breeds conflict like being bestowed with the title: King's Fool. ;D
I don't know why the discussion is continuing. I said it's not going to happen.
someone's been playing ck2 too much.
Quote from: Vellos on February 19, 2012, 08:16:03 AM
Do you mean a continuous cost or a continuous transfer? As in, gold destroyed, or gold simply transferred to the holder?
I was imagining a continuous cost, though I now see the original suggestion was a continuous transfer. Though, alas, as Tom's made his position clear, it won't be happening any time soon.
You misunderstand me.
It's not only not happening anytime soon, it's not going to happen ever.
Adding more actual titles to the game - functions that actually have a purpose, that is a thought I could entertain.