BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: pcw27 on March 08, 2012, 11:42:31 PM
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A while back there was talk of changing academies to a source of paraphernalia. From an academy you buy trainers. These trainers allow nobles to use extra hours to improve skills in sword fighting, jousting or leadership.
In this way players would no longer have to be bound to a city to improve their skills.
The idea got a lot of support as the current system makes it difficult for players to improve their combat skills and participate in military actions.
Several players endorsed the idea but I don't recall any answer from the developers. I'd like to know if any developers see this as a viable change that may eventually be made in the academy system.
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Please give your reasoning for why it should be easy to participate in military actions and gain personal skills at the same time.
Note that participating in battles already has a chance of improving your related personal skills (i.e. swordfighting if using infantry).
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It's my understanding that a Feudal lord wouldn't need to travel all the way to a city in order to train in swordplay and jousting. They'd have an entourage which featured sparring partners and instructors. The idea of traveling to a city to find a swordsmaster to train with is more in keeping with renaissance and baroque fencing then it is with medieval tournament and battlefield combat.
The very idea is contrary to the cultural set up of Battle master. Why should some commoner be in such high demand that Nobles, Lords and even Kings need to travel to him for instruction? Any feudal lord of any significance should be able to hire their own private trainer.
Also I'll add that archer units don't gain you sword fighting experience. Therefore if you command an archer unit and participate actively in your realm's military then all of your skills will completely atrophy if given enough time.
The whole topic is covered in greater detail in the thread "nerf the academy" which features many concerns about game balance issues and loss of role-play potential.
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It's my understanding that a Feudal lord wouldn't need to travel all the way to a city in order to train in swordplay and jousting. They'd have an entourage which featured sparring partners and instructors. The idea of traveling to a city to find a swordsmaster to train with is more in keeping with renaissance and baroque fencing then it is with medieval tournament and battlefield combat.
The very idea is contrary to the cultural set up of Battle master. Why should some commoner be in such high demand that Nobles, Lords and even Kings need to travel to him for instruction? Any feudal lord of any significance should be able to hire their own private trainer.
Also I'll add that archer units don't gain you sword fighting experience. Therefore if you command an archer unit and participate actively in your realm's military then all of your skills will completely atrophy if given enough time.
The whole topic is covered in greater detail in the thread "nerf the academy" which features many concerns about game balance issues and loss of role-play potential.
Who ever said the trainers were commoners? In fact any trainer that was training nobles would almost CERTAINLY be at least of minor nobility.
The academy as is exists for game balance reasons. Tom has stated many times that he doesn't want "academy" training to be too easy, nor does he want it to be the primary way to increase skills.
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The academy as is exists for game balance reasons. Tom has stated many times that he doesn't want "academy" training to be too easy, nor does he want it to be the primary way to increase skills.
As it stands, however, it is the primary way.
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As it stands, however, it is the primary way.
No, its the way for impatient people that have agenda's that require skills NOW. If personal skills are more important to your character then the other actions available to you, that is your call. If MAXIMISING the speed at which your skills are increased is your priority, then spend you gold and sit in the city.
Alternatively ask yourself this, if the stated goal of academies is NOT to be the primary way to train skills, and you are correct that they are. Don't you think the result would NOT to be to provide a simpler way to access trainers?
I've got characters with very high sword fighting, that are neither ex advies nor have spent time training in the academy. They have simply spent their lives fighting and attending tournaments.
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And honestly, unless your skills are very low and you somehow have a lot of excess gold, the Academy is one of the less efficient means of increasing your skills.
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And what if your realm has been at peace for a while or you command an archer unit? I've only ever gotten a character to maximum skill level by training at the academy.
And logically, training with your troops should be an opportunity to improve swordfighting or jousting skills, as far as I know you can only improve leadership skills by training your troops.
An archery skill would be nice as well.
And honestly, unless your skills are very low and you somehow have a lot of excess gold, the Academy is one of the less efficient means of increasing your skills.
Are you factoring in how high casualties are for a typical infantry or cavalry unit and how expensive it is to replace them? And repair their equipment.
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I know you did not get maximum skill from Academy since academy only goes up to 80% not 100% so you could not have maxed out a skill through academy. The archery skill might sound good but what would you use it for? If there is no benefit there is no need to have it.
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And what if your realm has been at peace for a while or you command an archer unit? I've only ever gotten a character to maximum skill level by training at the academy.
And logically, training with your troops should be an opportunity to improve swordfighting or jousting skills, as far as I know you can only improve leadership skills by training your troops.
An archery skill would be nice as well.
Are you factoring in how high casualties are for a typical infantry or cavalry unit and how expensive it is to replace them? And repair their equipment.
If you realm as been at peace for YEARS, that is a problem with your realm. I can't see us adding something to help realms at peace work on "war" skills.
Training you men, well nothing says YOU actually get into the thick of things with that training. Its possible you do, its just as possible you stand on the side lines and order them around. Regardless if you could train skills in this matter, again you would be making it too easy to train up skills
As someone else has said, you have NEVER reached max skills at a academy. Its not possible.
Finally. Consider the goal of skills. Think carefully about weather the design intent is for 80% of the nobles to have "high" skills, or if the idea is for a small elite to have such high jousting and sword fighting.
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I know you did not get maximum skill from Academy since academy only goes up to 80% not 100% so you could not have maxed out a skill through academy.
Let me clarify, I've never gotten to max skill level by combat alone. I recommend reading some of the thread I mentioned to get an idea of the various issues people had with the academy. I'm not doing the best job representing them all.
The archery skill might sound good but what would you use it for? If there is no benefit there is no need to have it.
The archery contest is a classic part medieval tournament tradition. Therefore it would be another event option at tournaments. Robin Hood anyone? That could be cool, in the unlikely event that two players get a perfect roll the message could read "sir suchandsuch's arrow strikes the precise spot where lord soandso's arrow struck, cleaving it in two!"
Did people ever used to have duels by archery? That would be cool too.
I'm not sure if hero characters add more cs when they have a high sword fighting skill, but if so it could be the same for a high archer skill.
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The issue with heroes boosting cs of archer units with high archer skill is how heroic is it to be in the back shooting at your enemy instead of gloriously fighting in close combat.
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Let me clarify, I've never gotten to max skill level by combat alone. I recommend reading some of the thread I mentioned to get an idea of the various issues people had with the academy. I'm not doing the best job representing them all.
You are preoccupied with Max skills. Max skills is not supposed to be a common event, its not supposed to be easy to achieve either. If anything getting max skills in things like Bureaucracy and Oratory is too easy.
Think about it as a real life thing. I could practice fencing everyday of my life for years, either in a training format or by dueling, the manner isn't relevant. Chances are, I will NEVER reach the highest level of ability here. This is not a standard CRPG were max skills is a given. So to my mind we have two methods available to achieve a spectrum of skills. The first is to make skill gain reasonably difficult so it takes not just time, but singular focus to maximise skills, which is arguably what we have done with sword fighting. The second would be to randomly generate a series of limits on character creation which represent your characters skills in such things like reactions times, observational skills etc, and use those to limit the maximum level for each skill category for your character.
So to reiterate. IF you want maximum skills in some area's then you need to dedicate time, effort and resources to achieve this at the expense of participating in other area's of the game. That is by design, so to change this you would need to offer a compelling reason.
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Well if that were an issue heros wouldn't be allowed to be archers at all would they?
I would assume a hero archer would stand in the front rank and fire a bow rather then the rear echelons, thus being subject to enemy archer fire and charges from infantry and cavalry.
Do heroes get a better skill boost from combat then regular knights? They kind of should.
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Do heroes get a better skill boost from combat then regular knights? They kind of should.
Why?
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You are preoccupied with Max skills. Max skills is not supposed to be a common event, its not supposed to be easy to achieve either. If anything getting max skills in things like Bureaucracy and Oratory is too easy.
Think about it as a real life thing. I could practice fencing everyday of my life for years, either in a training format or by dueling, the manner isn't relevant. Chances are, I will NEVER reach the highest level of ability here. This is not a standard CRPG were max skills is a given. So to my mind we have two methods available to achieve a spectrum of skills. The first is to make skill gain reasonably difficult so it takes not just time, but singular focus to maximise skills, which is arguably what we have done with sword fighting. The second would be to randomly generate a series of limits on character creation which represent your characters skills in such things like reactions times, observational skills etc, and use those to limit the maximum level for each skill category for your character.
So to reiterate. IF you want maximum skills in some area's then you need to dedicate time, effort and resources to achieve this at the expense of participating in other area's of the game. That is by design, so to change this you would need to offer a compelling reason.
Yes but the point is why should that time and gold have to be spent in some city? You would still have to sacrifice time, heck it could be made so you still have to sacrifice gold, but you wouldn't also have to sacrifice participating in actual combat by being tied down to some city.
It's unrealistic and it's bad for balance.
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Why?
Because according to the game they're leading from the front getting into the thick of combat whereas normal knights sit in the rear echelons and fight only when they have to. The hero description claims the hero increases the CS of his unit because he/she is personally fighting in that battle.
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Yes but the point is why should that time and gold have to be spent in some city? You would still have to sacrifice time, heck it could be made so you still have to sacrifice gold, but you wouldn't also have to sacrifice participating in actual combat by being tied down to some city.
It's unrealistic and it's bad for balance.
How is it bad for balance? It is GOOD for balance because it is another restriction to high skills. So we provide paraphernalia for training, what is the result. MORE high level sword fighters. You have yet to prove that this is a desirable thing.The requirement to go to a city to train is what provides part of the singular focus on the activity.
Because according to the game they're leading from the front getting into the thick of combat whereas normal knights sit in the rear echelons and fight only when they have to. The hero description claims the hero increases the CS of his unit because he/she is personally fighting in that battle.
Yet both Hero's and non-heros get wounded in battles, and by watching battles it should be evident that non-hero's can be wounded when very little damage is done to their unit, suggesting that the idea they sit back and do little is not quite accurate.
Its no so much that other knights DON'T participate, as Hero's throw themselves into the absolute worse situations, the riskiest parts of the combat. While this increases the risk to themselves (which is resolved as a chance to die) it doesn't necessarily mean it would impart a chance at greater skill.
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Because according to the game they're leading from the front getting into the thick of combat whereas normal knights sit in the rear echelons and fight only when they have to. The hero description claims the hero increases the CS of his unit because he/she is personally fighting in that battle.
I think they only increase CS (or number of hits, which is what actually counts in battle) for close combat.
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I think they only increase CS (or number of hits, which is what actually counts in battle) for close combat.
Can anyone confirm where the description on the wiki came from? Since it is so hard to actually test I know of no hard numbers to either confirm or deny that Hero's have any effect on the CS of their units.
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How is it bad for balance? It is GOOD for balance because it is another restriction to high skills. So we provide paraphernalia for training, what is the result. MORE high level sword fighters. You have yet to prove that this is a desirable thing.The requirement to go to a city to train is what provides part of the singular focus on the activity.
That will only be the result if the paraphernalia aren't adjusted properly. They'd need to be expensive, time consuming and limited in effectiveness.
The cities only system creates a situation where a hardened veteran who's been on campaign for months will almost always be worse at sword fighting then someone who's sat in a city training. One of the big complaints on the other thread was that combat doesn't give a high enough skill boost in comparison with the academy.
The real issue I see is that the Academy as it functions now separates two elements of gameplay and medieval society that should be intrinsically linked: military service and prowess in combat.
Frankly I don't care how the issue is addressed but the paraphernalia idea was instantly popular.
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you train anyway (without doing anything)... just to maintain your skills (or make sure it doesn't deteriorate too badly) you just go to academies for specialist stuff..
them stuffy masters are not going to wander around the countryside instead of staying in court teaching heirs to the throne, etc..
... or they can remove academy....
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you train anyway (without doing anything)... just to maintain your skills (or make sure it doesn't deteriorate too badly) you just go to academies for specialist stuff..
them stuffy masters are not going to wander around the countryside instead of staying in court teaching heirs to the throne, etc..
... or they can remove academy....
As it stands now theres no way to train your own combat skills in any way without an academy. Heck I think it would be reasonable to have a way to train which only keeps your skills from deteriorating, but right now your options are fight in battles or sit in a city, with is completely unrealistic, not fun, and with the current system gives the person sitting in the city an advantage over the one fighting battles.
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eh... the point is.. you don't have to click links to do it. just imagine it's done already. some bloke wandering around with some crap tutor or wave a piece of metal around just isn't going to be doing much good.
... basically.. go fight.
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A while back there was talk of changing academies to a source of paraphernalia. From an academy you buy trainers.
There was talk, yes.
It was rejected. I will not change the way academies work. I don't see a reason to repeat the discussion.
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Thank you for your input, everyone. A decision has been reached, let us move on to more productive topics.