No, it should be delayed. That's why I like a rations-like approach. The basic gameplay idea is to provide an incentive to looting.
So, one idea would be to have a "rations" attribute for units. It would count in days, and would automatically be scaled to unit size. So yes, if soldiers die,. their rations would be lost. Not 100% realistic, but simple and predictable. And it saves us from trouble such as calculating what the effect is when 10 soldiers of an 80 strong unit die (i.e. fractions of days).
Rations would be slowly replenished in certain areas (food supply, barracks, or something), but could also be quickly replenished by looting.
Would that looting replace the current "steal food" option? And would it still reduce an enemy region's food? It would be good to keep that tactical option available.
wouldn't it be better to let forage battlefield to get whatever food you lose from losing your men?
Quote from: Zakilevo on March 12, 2012, 05:47:17 PM
wouldn't it be better to let forage battlefield to get whatever food you lose from losing your men?
I agree, this would seem like a good option.
As looting would be fore when there is nothing left to fight, or was none to start with.
Quote from: Zakilevo on March 12, 2012, 05:47:17 PMwouldn't it be better to let forage battlefield to get whatever food you lose from losing your men?
That would require lots of record-keeping and calculations. More trouble than its worth, really.
Quote from: Indirik on March 12, 2012, 06:58:46 PM
That would require lots of record-keeping and calculations. More trouble than its worth, really.
And if you enabled something like this you'd soon see a feature request to be able to intentionally poison your rations to harm scavengers.
Would it require more record keeping than for foraging the battlefield for armour? I would say use the same code, just adapt it slightly to include food.
Would these rations deplete themselves automatically or only in regions suffering hunger or starvation?
Fleshing out the mechanics:
- Add a value "rations" to the units
- Init at around 5 when you recruit a new unit
- When your unit would suffer from starvation, but has rations, reduce rations by 1 instead
- When you are stationary in a region with food surplus, it slowly replenishes (say, 0.2 per day)
- You can loot for rations, the old "steal food" option
- When you're out of rations, starvation sets in
Quote from: Tom on March 13, 2012, 09:20:40 AM
Fleshing out the mechanics:
- Add a value "rations" to the units
- Init at around 5 when you recruit a new unit
- When your unit would suffer from starvation, but has rations, reduce rations by 1 instead
- When you are stationary in a region with food surplus, it slowly replenishes (say, 0.2 per day)
- You can loot for rations, the old "steal food" option
- When you're out of rations, starvation sets in
Can you store above the starting limit of rations? Such as building up to 10 rations or instead of just 5?
I would want to be able to prepare for long marches by having a larger store of rations. Or is that unreasonable?
But there no reason to store for long marches unless you are marching through many many regions that don't have food.
Quote from: Eithad on March 13, 2012, 09:38:37 AM
But there no reason to store for long marches unless you are marching through many many regions that don't have food.
Dwilight has this problem. (Depending on where you are)
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on March 13, 2012, 09:34:22 AM
Can you store above the starting limit of rations? Such as building up to 10 rations or instead of just 5?
I would want to be able to prepare for long marches by having a larger store of rations. Or is that unreasonable?
I haven't thought that aspect through yet. Maybe. Maybe with a paraphernalia. I'm not really certain. I don't want to completely eliminate starvation for troops, just make it so you don't start to lose men the moment you cross the border.
Are we still going to be able to significantly affect an enemy region's food by stealing it, though, if we can only go up to 5 or 10 rations?
The food would certainly not come out of thin air, it would be removed from the region.
How significant it is depends on how many troops you have in relation to how many peasants are in the region. In a region with 10k peasants, a unit of 20 men can stuff all their pockets, bags and mouths full of food and carry a bag of grain in every hand and in the sum total it wouldn't even be noticed.
Why would it be affected by region population? 100 bushels of food is 100 bushels of food, no matter how many people live in the region.
Quote from: Velax on March 13, 2012, 06:00:13 PM
Why would it be affected by region population? 100 bushels of food is 100 bushels of food, no matter how many people live in the region.
Do you know how big a bushel actually is? It's quite a bit for one person to carry, even if it's divided up into a few different bags and sacks slung about his person.
Sure, but how is that relevent to my question? My 20 men are going to carry away a certain number of bushels to feed themselves, and that amount will be the same no matter whether 200 or 20,000 peasants live in the region.
you find peasant, you rob peasant. you don't find peasant, you don't rob peasant?
you find lots of peasant, you rob lots of peasant?
Could a region that's been looted for rations be subject to accelerated rot for a certain period, the rational being the soldiers would take all the nonperishable food first.
Tom's point I beleive it is true they will take the same amount anywhere they go but when you consider it, if 10k peasants eat lets say 10 or 15 bushels a day imagine how little 20 people stealing food is. You can't expect 20 soldiers to be able to steal an amount equal to what 1k peasants eat which is 1 or 2 bushels a day.
Also the bushel numbers were made up and likely not very accurate.
Quote from: Penchant on March 13, 2012, 10:03:08 PM
Also the bushel numbers were made up and likely not very accurate.
It has been clearly explained in the wiki: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/High_Tech_Game
Nice page
Quote from: Anaris on March 13, 2012, 06:05:26 PM
Do you know how big a bushel actually is? It's quite a bit for one person to carry, even if it's divided up into a few different bags and sacks slung about his person.
A bushel is 8 gallons of dry goods, or roughly 32 liters. A bushel of wheat, for example, weighs 27 kilos, or 60 pounds.
We can't expect a single soldier to carry more than a bushel, really, and even that is probably a stretch. Even then, that means a medium sized army could remove 500 bushels from a single region, which is certainly enough to cause problems in most cities.
Quote from: vonGenf on March 14, 2012, 02:24:53 AM
A bushel is 8 gallons of dry goods, or roughly 32 liters. A bushel of wheat, for example, weighs 27 kilos, or 60 pounds.
We can't expect a single soldier to carry more than a bushel, really, and even that is probably a stretch. Even then, that means a medium sized army could remove 500 bushels from a single region, which is certainly enough to cause problems in most cities.
27kg? That's heavy. I do not think a soldier can carry even a bushel if you think about the weight of equipment a single soldier carry around. If they are well armed, they will probably carry at least 15-30 kg.
But if we want to make things simple, I guess we can make them carry 1 bushel. Don't forget. BM is a high tech game. :)
Quote from: Zakilevo on March 14, 2012, 02:28:44 AM
27kg? That's heavy. I do not think a soldier can carry even a bushel if you think about the weight of equipment a single soldier carry around. If they are well armed, they will probably carry at least 15-30 kg.
But if we want to make things simple, I guess we can make them carry 1 bushel. Don't forget. BM is a high tech game. :)
A modern soldier can carry up to twice the weight of a busshel of grain. Battle Master soldiers probably come from lives of heavy manual labor so I don't think a busshel of rations plus equipment is hard to accept. Plus we could just say they have a few pack animals with them.
People were shorter and smaller back in the days. Their equipment were heavier as well. Well armed soldiers probably needed some animals to carry their stuff around.
Battle Master is a fantasy world so exact details like height aren't necessarily true of the world.
A feudal infantry force might have considerably lighter equipment then a modern soldier. Many would have just a repurposed farm tool and the cloths on their back.
A unit equipped with hauberks, bucklers and a sword (which would be amazingly good equipment for peasant infantry) would be carrying about 40-50 pounds. The sword would be 1-5 lbs (A 6 foot long claymore could be as little as 5 lbs), the bukler probably 1lb, and the hauberk between 20 and 40 lbs. Compare that to the modern infantry gear of a kevlar vest, helmet, assault rifle and several magazines of ammo.
In any case flavor texts can simply say (rations are carried in your soldiers packs and on the backs of pack animals). The unit of one busshel per man still seems to be about the right standard.
In Battlemaster they aren't running around with a farm tool. The noble is paying for good equipment for the unit to use, they are used by the soldiers but not owned and we don't maintain the same equipment because after a noble's entire unit got wiped out and he barely made it out alive himself you can't expect him to have carried the equipment for 20 new men.
Quote from: Penchant on March 14, 2012, 03:34:43 AM
In Battlemaster they aren't running around with a farm tool. The noble is paying for good equipment for the unit to use, they are used by the soldiers but not owned and we don't maintain the same equipment because after a noble's entire unit got wiped out and he barely made it out alive himself you can't expect him to have carried the equipment for 20 new men.
For units with decent armour and weapon values sure. For those with lower stats then things like farm tools are appropriate weapons.
I enjoy these logical discussions myself, the historical backing is great as well, but let's keep to the topic at hand. We're trying to find a balanced conversion between rations and bushels in actual gameplay. :)
Why not make it 1 Ration = 1 Bushel?
Yeah I think that is the simplest way. We should keep things simple as much as possible. Now the problem is how much can people carry around.
Quote from: Penchant on March 14, 2012, 03:34:43 AM
In Battlemaster they aren't running around with a farm tool. The noble is paying for good equipment for the unit to use, they are used by the soldiers but not owned and we don't maintain the same equipment because after a noble's entire unit got wiped out and he barely made it out alive himself you can't expect him to have carried the equipment for 20 new men.
A farming tool is a lot more likely then full plate armor.
Quote from: Velax on March 13, 2012, 06:00:13 PM
Why would it be affected by region population? 100 bushels of food is 100 bushels of food, no matter how many people live in the region.
It is the same in absolute values, but not the same in relative values.
For a small region, a large unit could carry away a considerable amount of their supply.
For a large region, a small unit could not carry enough that anyone would notice.
Maybe we can also have choices between calling for requisition and buying food? Eventually influencing the new Honour/Prestige system?
Quote from: Zakilevo on March 14, 2012, 06:18:44 PM
Maybe we can also have choices between calling for requisition and buying food? Eventually influencing the new Honour/Prestige system?
Please do not complicate this idea.
Really. My patience on adding crap to simple feature requests is worn out. I'm an inch short of closing the entire feature requests board because it more and more becomes the place where good ideas go to die.
Quote from: Tom on March 14, 2012, 10:45:15 PM
Please do not complicate this idea.
Really. My patience on adding crap to simple feature requests is worn out. I'm an inch short of closing the entire feature requests board because it more and more becomes the place where good ideas go to die.
This is a big part of the reason for Rule 3 in the new feature request rules (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2131.0.html).
Based on that, people can bring up dozens of different stupid modifications to a good feature request, and as long as none of them get edited into the original post, we can safely ignore them entirely.
Quote from: Anaris on March 14, 2012, 10:49:16 PM
Based on that, people can bring up dozens of different stupid modifications to a good feature request, and as long as none of them get edited into the original post, we can safely ignore them entirely.
I hadn't seen it that way, but that's a great way of handling this. Sometimes I have an idea and I just want to throw it out there. I fully expect most of them won't get taken up, but this is still a discussion board, and I figure discussion should be encouraged.
It's a discussion board, but not a free-for-all board.
Rule #3 or not, I do not want to see feature request discussions going off on wild tangents. I really, really think we need to get a moderator in here who will mercilessly delete every single post that doesn't relate directly to the feature request.
Then you may need to debug per-board mods.
Perhaps direct those posts to "Development" instead of to "Feature Requests"?
Quote from: Tom on March 13, 2012, 12:33:54 PM
I haven't thought that aspect through yet. Maybe. Maybe with a paraphernalia. I'm not really certain. I don't want to completely eliminate starvation for troops, just make it so you don't start to lose men the moment you cross the border.
I know this thread is wandering, but I wanted to suggest that the unit's ration limit could be raised by keeping carts around. Caravans are on the way out (see: Dwilight/BT), but carts are still kicking about. A unit has a suggested base (max) of 5 rations. Each cart you're pulling about adds 5 more rations to the maximium (this 5 could be lower or higher for game balance). When you buy them they start out empty, if you lose them any food goes with them.
Don't worry about cart "use" like wounded taking up space, etc. Just give the ration max as (5 + 5 * carts) and run with it.
There's always been the requests for nobles to keep their units fed in famine regions kicking about. A ration system is how armies operate anyway.
Regarding looting from battles: I suggest you just give every unit that survives the battle (winners and losers) +1 rations and be done with it. Just assume soldiers are personally opportunistic and win or lose manage to rustle up some food one way or another. That way you get a bonus for fighting and the devs don't have to work out another stats system for residual battlefields.
Regarding looting from regions: Looting granaries would reduce the regions' food stored 1 bushel per 1 ration looted. Keep it simple and see how it goes for a while.
Tom, don't you think that carrying rations should make the unit slower? Could be a good reason for even a rich noble not to carry them around.
No, I don't think so.
I do like the idea of carts enlarging the amount of rations one can carry, and carts do slow down already, so you get it for free there.
That is actually a nice idea. What does a cart do anyway? Reduce time for wounded units?
Quote from: Zakilevo on March 16, 2012, 12:54:15 AM
That is actually a nice idea. What does a cart do anyway? Reduce time for wounded units?
Reduce the speed penalty for wounded men.
So doesn't that kinda make them useless if they give you a speed penalty by having them? Honest question.
Quote from: Penchant on March 16, 2012, 01:23:32 AM
So doesn't that kinda make them useless if they give you a speed penalty by having them? Honest question.
They possibly also reduce the death rate for wounded men when travelling, can't remember. The speed penalty for carts is much less then the penalty for large amounts of wounded men though.
So its a if I have to have a speed penalty let it be minor and the death rate thing.