Quote from: TomI still see many realm-wide requests for rural lords to put up sell offers so the city lords can buy the food.
Maybe you should consider it the other way around. The new trade system is built with a "what I need" mentality in mind. If a city needs food, it is much better off putting up buy offers than waiting for other regions to put up sell offers. First off, the delay is shorter, second there are more options for getting the food, third you can have the traders broker your deals, making everything a lot easier for you.
Theoretically, the entire trade system should work completely without the need of additional messages. If you need food, setting up a buy offer is a much more effective and precise communication than a realm-wide message. If you have food to sell, putting it on the market is a much better way to announce so than posting a letter.
Try it. If you do this for a while, I'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised how smoothly it works without all the micro-management of telling others what to do.
Or, if lords could put automatic buy offers to reduce the burden of trade back closer to historical levels (there has always been a way to automate food dealings for as far as I can remember, save for transition periods), then we'd see truly hassle and micro-management free trade.
Automatic buy offers are not possible. Automatic sell offers are an accepted feature request.
Quote from: egamma on April 11, 2012, 02:37:20 AM
Automatic buy offers are not possible. Automatic sell offers are an accepted feature request.
So, Dukes HAVE to be active, but rural lords don't have to be active?
Don't be ridiculous. If you're "active" enough to avoid autopausing you're active enough to post a set of 7 or 8 trade offers once a week. If you think you won't be around, post twice as many.
It just seems unusual.
Is is a coding thing that makes it not possible or is it a decision that has been made?
If its a coding issue, I am quite understanding. If not, I don't understand why there couldn't simply be an option to: Place a new 500 bushel buy offer every X days for Y gold per 100.
I mean the same argument could be made that automatic sell offers don't need to be present since anyone should be active enough to do it.
The main thing I think is its just a hassle for some people. They don't want to deal with food at all.
The reason its not possible is because the duke has to pay for the food when he sets up the deal, but what happens when for some reason he doesn't have the money but the offer automatically is made which should take money from him but can't. Automatic sell offers are possible since you get gold not lose, so you will never have it where you can't get the gold bonds from selling because that just doesn't make sense but you won't always have money to buy.
Quote from: Penchant on April 11, 2012, 05:25:17 AM
The reason its not possible is because the duke has to pay for the food when he sets up the deal, but what happens when for some reason he doesn't have the money but the offer automatically is made which should take money from him but can't. Automatic sell offers are possible since you get gold not lose, so you will never have it where you can't get the gold bonds from selling because that just doesn't make sense but you won't always have money to buy.
That makes sense.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 11, 2012, 04:18:58 AM
So, Dukes HAVE to be active, but rural lords don't have to be active?
If you are a Duke and you cannot spend time to even post a damn food order then you will either be ousted soon for incompetence or your realm is dead and you are likely one of its causes of defunction.
Quote from: JPierreD on April 11, 2012, 06:38:26 AM
If you are a Duke and you cannot spend time to even post a damn food order then you will either be ousted soon for incompetence or your realm is dead and you are likely one of its causes of defunction.
Cheers!
Quote from: JPierreD on April 11, 2012, 06:38:26 AM
If you are a Duke and you cannot spend time to even post a damn food order then you will either be ousted soon for incompetence or your realm is dead and you are likely one of its causes of defunction.
Or you know, you are in the field traveling in winter and not to expect a market for the coming two weeks..
Quote from: D`Este on April 11, 2012, 09:40:42 AM
Or you know, you are in the field traveling in winter and not to expect a market for the coming two weeks..
And don't have sufficient reserves which you should have planned prior to starting that trip, and refuse to appoint a steward. That's a lot of mistakes to make at once.
Quote from: Indirik on April 11, 2012, 04:27:04 AM
Don't be ridiculous. If you're "active" enough to avoid autopausing you're active enough to post a set of 7 or 8 trade offers once a week.
And why even that? Post one big one and let the traders worry about the details. Right now trader brokering doesn't work well because too few people actually put up bigger offers because they are afraid that trader brokering won't work. It needs a push to get moving, that's all.
Maybe we can actually do both buy and sell offers automatically. But in order to make this also push trading, I would limit it to exactly one per region, so it can't be split up. If you want to do micro-management, you have to do it manually. Buy orders could be done automatically using tax gold. Is there already a feature request on the bug tracker that I could add my thoughts to? (sorry, lazy this morning)
Quote from: D`Este on April 11, 2012, 09:40:42 AM
Or you know, you are in the field traveling in winter and not to expect a market for the coming two weeks..
You do not have to be in your region to trade from or to it. Any region with a marketplace will do.
Quote from: Tom on April 11, 2012, 10:05:10 AM
You do not have to be in your region to trade from or to it. Any region with a marketplace will do.
In Dwilight, it's not impossible to undertake a trip that will keep you away from a marketplace for a long time. Sallowtown-Donghaiwei, for example, or Twainville-Echiur through the Zuma's.
If I would travel to palm sea from a region next to it for instance, that's 6-7 turns for me and 6-7 turns back towards my own lands. So imagine if we go a region deeper into enemy territory, where I have no say over where market places will be. Even if I post up buy orders before I leave, my lords will be unable to sell their food.
I have to admit that if you plan a bit ahead you can store enough bushels, but it's not fun/easy/enjoyable to have to worry about such things. Which should also a part of the game I think.
Quote from: D`Este on April 11, 2012, 10:59:14 AM
If I would travel to palm sea from a region next to it for instance, that's 6-7 turns for me and 6-7 turns back towards my own lands. So imagine if we go a region deeper into enemy territory, where I have no say over where market places will be. Even if I post up buy orders before I leave, my lords will be unable to sell their food.
I have to admit that if you plan a bit ahead you can store enough bushels, but it's not fun/easy/enjoyable to have to worry about such things. Which should also a part of the game I think.
Okay, so 14 turns--7 days. A region deeper--let's give it another 4 days. That's...11 days. Offers stay on the market for up to 14.
Quote from: egamma on April 11, 2012, 04:16:09 PM
Okay, so 14 turns--7 days. A region deeper--let's give it another 4 days. That's...11 days.
For a two-region move. Now imagine if you want to go to the next realm over? Travel times on Dwilight are
long, but you know that.
Quote from: D`Este on April 11, 2012, 10:59:14 AM
If I would travel to palm sea from a region next to it for instance, that's 6-7 turns for me and 6-7 turns back towards my own lands. So imagine if we go a region deeper into enemy territory, where I have no say over where market places will be. Even if I post up buy orders before I leave, my lords will be unable to sell their food.
That's what stewards are for, then.
Quote from: vonGenf on April 11, 2012, 04:32:39 PM
For a two-region move. Now imagine if you want to go to the next realm over? Travel times on Dwilight are long, but you know that.
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Bankers_Map_of_Dwilight (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Bankers_Map_of_Dwilight)
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Marketplaces_of_Dwilight (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Marketplaces_of_Dwilight) (yes, I know it needs a table)
Quote from: Tom on April 11, 2012, 05:20:00 PM
That's what stewards are for, then.
Steward is part of the army, basically everyone is fighting. And the lords don't have knights who could be stewards, so even if a trader/steward in the city would stay behind there would be no sell orders.
Quote from: egamma on April 11, 2012, 04:16:09 PM
Okay, so 14 turns--7 days. A region deeper--let's give it another 4 days. That's...11 days. Offers stay on the market for up to 14.
That's one direction Egamma, if I need to visit a market I need to travel the same route back again so that will be closer to 22 days without market.
...dukes? failure to distinguish between city lords and old dukes.
wait till there's a rural duke.
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why would a steward need to be trader? he could be a courtier, ambassador, priest. and if they are with the army, they could purchase stuff from foreign realms they are not at war with... (assuming they find any open deals) - though i have no idea if you can access marketplace in hostile regions... (i mean the building right there..)
for that matter, why would a lord need to be in an army?
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furthermore, is there any reason not to build up tons of granaries? if you have enough capacity, then you can buy up huge loads of food at your leisure.
You have 5 granaries with a capacity of 2500 bushels.
You have 8511 bushels of food stored.
This store will last you about 43 more days.
It's not like I have a need for food or real problem besides the rotting but it would simply cost too much at this moment to build more granaries.
Fodder, if a lord wants to fight he is part of the army and follows orders of the marshal, in times of war you can't afford half your army wandering at times to post up a sale order. So most food matters will come down to refits. If you have a refit once every 3 weeks then it would require decent build ups of food which might not always be possible and there has to be enough food available to buy it.
And in enemy lands it's the big question if you will find a market place to deal from, so you can't assume you can trade there.
So if the lords could have automated sell orders, then a lord could set up large buy orders before he leaves and then trust on traders. This would make it all easier.
You'll just have to plan ahead. Build up stockpiles. Post long-term buy orders. Appoint stewards. Talk to traders.
And after all that, if you still can't manage to keep your city fed while you go on a three-week jaunt away from any marketplace at all, then maybe you just shouldn't spend all that time away from your city. All that extra gold, power, and prestige doesn't exactly come with no strings attached.
Quote from: D`Este on April 11, 2012, 08:43:40 PM
You have 5 granaries with a capacity of 2500 bushels.
You have 8511 bushels of food stored.
Yeah, that's something that's not yet finished and I might yet change it a little. I'm thinking about doubling the amount of food that a granary can store, before I add rot back in.
Quote from: Tom on April 11, 2012, 09:38:07 PM
Yeah, that's something that's not yet finished and I might yet change it a little. I'm thinking about doubling the amount of food that a granary can store, before I add rot back in.
It'd be nice at least for Dwilight, because of Winter.
Not really needed anywhere else, though. Granaries ARE cheaper than ever, after all.
FEI has winter, too.
I'd love to see double-sized granaries. There's plenty of food I *could* buy, but don't because I can't fit it in my granaries.
Quote from: D`Este on April 11, 2012, 08:43:40 PM
You have 5 granaries with a capacity of 2500 bushels.
You have 8511 bushels of food stored.
This store will last you about 43 more days.
It's not like I have a need for food or real problem besides the rotting but it would simply cost too much at this moment to build more granaries.
Fodder, if a lord wants to fight he is part of the army and follows orders of the marshal, in times of war you can't afford half your army wandering at times to post up a sale order. So most food matters will come down to refits. If you have a refit once every 3 weeks then it would require decent build ups of food which might not always be possible and there has to be enough food available to buy it.
And in enemy lands it's the big question if you will find a market place to deal from, so you can't assume you can trade there.
So if the lords could have automated sell orders, then a lord could set up large buy orders before he leaves and then trust on traders. This would make it all easier.
1) why are you fighting so far away from home
2) so you leave no nobles at home to fight off monsters or undeads
Quote from: Eithad on April 14, 2012, 12:19:36 AM
1) why are you fighting so far away from home
He is, most probably, not fighting. Dwilight is a big place, and a lot of people like to travel around. Priests, ambassadors, traders, etc.
And if he is fighting, that's possibly where the closest realm is!
Quote from: Eithad on April 14, 2012, 12:19:36 AM
1) why are you fighting so far away from home
2) so you leave no nobles at home to fight off monsters or undeads
1) I'm talking about the region of the enemy that borders my realm borders... Not even taking into account the travel time to my region, but that's not really relevant for the discussion as I could force a region lord into building a market near the border.
2) No, why would I? Lands are populated, gold plenty, we have some advies so the random rogue spawn we will just defeat on our way back to refit. And with the long travel times it's important you have everyone you can together with you as it's almost impossible to reinforce yourself on short notice. The idea is to win and not lose coz a few nobles stay behind to wait.
as previously stated.. doesn't stop you from stockpiling a ton of food before you go off to war. long enough to cover a few weeks for each to and fro from battlefield.
each buy (or sell for that matter) offer stands for 2 weeks exactly, so it's entirely possible to have it fulfilled by someone else whilst you are off to war.
i think no one has mentioned for certain whether it's possible to use enemy's marketplace as yet. though that's more of an occasional bonus if it happens.
You can use enemy marketplaces. You can not trade with regions you are at war with, so those enemy marketplaces are likely to be of limited use, though.
Quote from: D`Este on April 14, 2012, 12:25:40 PM2) No, why would I?
Umm... to handle food for your city? Srsly... There's plenty of ways to handle it. If all the ways suggested are things you don't want to do, then that's really just too bad for you. Sorry for being so harsh, but really, that's what it comes down to.
Quote from: Tom on April 14, 2012, 01:51:53 PMYou can use enemy marketplaces.
Are you sure? I thought that while testing we determined that War status means you can't sue the marketplace at all.
Quote from: Indirik on April 14, 2012, 07:15:00 PM
Are you sure? I thought that while testing we determined that War status means you can't sue the marketplace at all.
I just looked into the code and don't see a test for it. Unless there's a big "if at war" catch-all that I missed?
ah.. the point of using enemy marketplace is mostly for you to stick up new offers for others to fulfil.
Indirik,
There are open buy orders for thousands of bushels, the trick is though that lords sell to the city and if they are with the army, what can I do about it? Force them to stay home so that when harvest comes in they sell to the city?
Ask some, or one of their stewards to do it. Or make sure you have enough stockpiles. Or don't march with the army. Or don't leave anyone home to mind the store, and suffer. You have multiple options. Pick one and use it.
Quote from: Indirik on April 15, 2012, 01:21:37 AM
Ask some, or one of their stewards to do it. Or make sure you have enough stockpiles. Or don't march with the army. Or don't leave anyone home to mind the store, and suffer. You have multiple options. Pick one and use it.
You forgot buy from other realms who don't have all their lords millions of miles away at war.
Or just add an auto sell feature that will allow traders to do business in the realm eventhough the rural lord is gone? Yea sure, i can stay back, if there is no food to be sold i's pointless though.
Convince someone else to stay back, by offering higher prices.
Or just stock up before you go.
I think I will just let it go as clearly continuing this discussion is pointless and only wasting people's time. I will say one, you will say other and we will both keep repeating our points over and over again to nobody's pleasure.
Did you miss this part?
Quote from: Tom on April 11, 2012, 10:04:09 AMMaybe we can actually do both buy and sell offers automatically. But in order to make this also push trading, I would limit it to exactly one per region, so it can't be split up. If you want to do micro-management, you have to do it manually. Buy orders could be done automatically using tax gold.
yes
Double granaries and auto-offers would both be very useful.