Greetings my fellow BM players,
I am looking for anywhere from 4-14 other players to work together with me in trying to see if BM's current player base is capable of putting up a fight and playing the military aspect of the game to its best potential.
The goal would be for us to all send either one or two characters to the same realm on Atamara or East Island, (or any continent really that can take more than one noble per family) and join together into an army with the intent of being the strongest military power that we can. We will not be taking over the realm but instead will be integrating ourselves into the way the realm is run. This could be a realm that some members already have nobles in or it can be completely new. We would try to form our own personal army and seek to have 100% movement rates within our army as well as due to our activity, we could move out from whatever region we are in as late as possible, thus ensure hard predictability of our movements. These things would not be required, but if we are able to do so, we would try as it gives us the best chance of winning militarily.
Any of our members would be free to run in whatever elections they would like, but are not required to support each other in any way there. The main goal would be to simply become a military powerhouse and test our abilities against those who would oppose whatever realm we join.
If you are interested, you can post here or contact me privately.
Edit: Interested players:
1. Silverfire
2. BardicNerd
3. GoldPanda?
4. Indirik?
Hmm, pretty low on noble count. We can still try it out but not many seem interested.
And the purpose of this is what, exactly, aside from making a point?
To troll, Tom.
Don't let him cross the bridge.
Quote from: Tom on April 11, 2012, 11:55:25 PM
And the purpose of this is what, exactly, aside from making a point?
You said I was discussing things in the wrong forum, and after reviewing things, this would be the correct forum.
As it was not expressly discussed, and I feel it is a legitimate issue, the only way to discuss it, is if it is not hypothetical. I perfectly willing to do this, and if it is allowed, I see no reason not to. I think it could be quite fun to have a military powerhouse.
As far as I can tell, from your personal statements across the forums, is that under the terms I've listed, that you don't consider this behavior obstructive to the game or against the Social Contract, so I thought I'd advertise my idea to my fellow players in the forum.
Edit: I even believe that at one point, you said you would challenge an outside clan to even come together and try and compete against BM's legitimate players. How is this any different?
A clan, 50 players.
A forum post, 100 words.
A topic to set up a clan by Dante, priceless.
Honestly? Let him attempt it. I /seriously/ doubt anything will come out of it, though.
Interesting idea. If you run things the way you described, you are *not* a clan, and wouldn't be subject to the Clanning restrictions.
You'll have to be very careful to not run afoul of the IRs, I think. Keep it all IC, follow the IRs/Social Contract, and you could probably have fun. After all, in BattleMaster the Ends do NOT justify the Means. The Means matter.
Military superiority is useless without a political agenda for it to support.
Good luck getting a bunch of skilled active players behind the same political agenda.
Quote from: Chénier on April 12, 2012, 02:49:07 AM
Good luck getting a bunch of skilled active players behind the same political agenda.
Isn't that the whole point of the game, and where all the fun comes from? Trying to get everyone to work together on a political agenda even though they don't always agree?
I always had more fun ruining other people's agendas...
Quote from: ^ban^ on April 12, 2012, 03:15:03 AM
I always had more fun ruining other people's agendas...
Don't get me wrong that's a lot of fun as well. I've had a character dedicated to that for over 2 real life years (hi Luria!).
But, in general things do have a military component. Being able to win militarily can make the rest a lot easier.
So it was YOU Dante!
You could do this in Beluterra and fight Tom/Overlord/Daimons.
I want to fight somewhere we can actually win, AND where it is fun to do so. Fighting NPC's isn't as fun. Even NPC's controlled by GM's.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 12, 2012, 02:55:25 AM
Isn't that the whole point of the game, and where all the fun comes from? Trying to get everyone to work together on a political agenda even though they don't always agree?
The fun comes from imposing your political agenda on others. How are you gonna do that when everyone's out for themselves? One needs allies.
Come join Oriolton, and we can take down Lukon!
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 12, 2012, 02:55:25 AM
Isn't that the whole point of the game, and where all the fun comes from? Trying to get everyone to work together on a political agenda even though they don't always agree?
Yeah, but if your plan is to collect 15 of the most active players you can find, it'll be like herding cats. Active players are *power players*. They are the people most likely to challenge each other for dominance and engage in political confrontation. I guess if they sign up for this they'll probably be coming in with some expectation of working together, but still. Good luck.
Quote from: Geronus on April 12, 2012, 05:04:49 PM
Yeah, but if your plan is to collect 15 of the most active players you can find, it'll be like herding cats. Active players are *power players*. They are the people most likely to challenge each other for dominance and engage in political confrontation. I guess if they sign up for this they'll probably be coming in with some expectation of working together, but still. Good luck.
However, most active players have a dummy character or two; a character they don't invest lots of time in. If every active player put their dummy character in the same place, this clan could have a chance.
Except that I don't think most "highly active" players are active in the same
way as clans are. I log several times a day probably. But it's often at odd times not at all around the turn. An effective clan needs coordinating times.
Quote from: Chénier on April 12, 2012, 04:49:19 AM
The fun comes from imposing your political agenda on others. How are you gonna do that when everyone's out for themselves? One needs allies.
Tell that to Aurvandil.
No politics, no roleplay, drones only, final boring realm.
Just about everyone has a dump character they could toss into a project. Like I said before, it could be interesting.
Okay, you should've said it's For Science... I'm in. I'm ditching if it gets boring though. :P
Join Sirion, become general, ..., profit.
Theres no need to recruit active players to you, just go to where they are and lead them to glory.
Quote from: Solari on April 12, 2012, 07:17:08 PM
Tell that to Aurvandil.
Are you in Aurvandil?
Quote from: Foundation on April 12, 2012, 08:04:27 PM
No politics, no roleplay, drones only, final boring realm.
How about you?
Medicant is a well fleshed-out character. He is very interesting to interact with, as a foreign ruler. Imo, you can't complain about his internal politics unless you are in the realm yourself. You could complain about his foreign politics as a foreigner, but I've yet to see anything to complain about on that level.
I, for one, and quite happy to have Aurvandil as a neighbor. Not sure what to expect of them on the long-term, but interactions with them have never deceived me.
Yes, I am.
I have a character I'm not doing anything with . . . might be fun for a bit. I may end up sending him to BT, but until then, I'll give this a try.
Well, activity and military skills dont cover everything. It is big part of winning battles and wars, but economy is the key for winning wars.
So, what you also need is good number cruncher and pretty wealthy realm. Eventuallly even most active army will be worn out and gold start to burn for recruiting/repairing/upkeep. If war lasts a bit longer economy start to become issue.
Often i see realms stretchign them self too much with orders like "Recruit all you can!!!" Then you go and fight few battles, if you win... your nobles start to shout "Gimme gold gimme gold, i cant pay my men!!!" if you fight even battles or even lose battles they start to shout "Gimme gold gimme gold i need to recruit!"
Too bad, i dont have any spare chars, well... i could dumb one of my BT chars at some point(or both if BT sinks :D), but that simply not possible atm. IC wise to abandon Thalmarkin. And UU is prince of Darka and needed there... and well, maybby it would be time to get riddoff KK at Darka and get some action when some hothead would jump on the throne and throw all diplomacy to trashcan :)
Anyway, few years ago, i could have name dozen players to join my dream team, but these days... good old turn junkies have gotten old and lazy :P(including my self :)
-Jaune
Why you want to do that, its too boring.... :o
Of those who have expressed interest, any idea where a good place to go would be? I'd personally not prefer to go to Atamara but we can do that if necessary. I'll just move one of my characters there off the island. (Already have 2 on Atamara).
The ideal place I see for us to join is someplace that is either about to go to war, (wants to go to war but still preparing), a place that is actively in a war, but not losing too terribly to be able to use nobles, or a realm which can't really go to war due to lack of nobles but with more nobles may be able to do something interesting. That way wherever we join, we're only adding to the fun of hte players already there.
I really don't know much about current events of East Island, but perhaps we could join on the other side of the Fontan v Westmoor war, because it seems Fontan already has a clan working for them? Or find some other place. I'd need someone else who is an expert on East Island though to know for sure.
How about D'hara? we really don't have an army there so it would be the best place to test this.
Hmm. Both of the realms I rule fit the bill, actually . . . now, am I actually devoted enough to this experiment to invite it into a realm I rule? Though my Dwilight character is actually a priest, so couldn't really take part directly . . . but damn, we need better military coordination in Libero.
D'hara is about to go to war? How about westmoor, I hear fontan is beating on them pretty well.
If we join a realm, we join one that's *currently in a major war*. I for one will not waste a char and sit around, waiting for politics to play out.
The war can't be a fake "oh, we've declared war against an enemy across the continent because we don't like them". The enemy can't be too far away or it's pointless.
Quote from: Foundation on April 14, 2012, 12:48:44 AM
If we join a realm, we join one that's *currently in a major war*. I for one will not waste a char and sit around, waiting for politics to play out.
The war can't be a fake "oh, we've declared war against an enemy across the continent because we don't like them". The enemy can't be too far away or it's pointless.
This makes, sense and I agree with it.
Silverfire,
Bring your hooligans to Zonasa on FEI.
Join my religion that is a hollow shell and needs active characters, but is a point of conflict within the realm. (My priest/founder of the religion is currently on trial for treason).
Fight an awesome war against a neighbor. Fairly sure, the Regent is preparing to declare a land grabbing war.
On completely false pretenses, too! Go go go go!
Yes i second the FEI choice, too many alliances, there must be a break up and War!
Toupellon need oponents and Arcaea is just.........that!
Peace!
Okay, I'm in for FEI. I've wanted to try out that island for a while now anyways.
Okay, FEI is what we can do.
Can someone with a character on FEI give an unbiased view of the current state of the island in terms of military conflict? (As unbiased as possible at least)
Toupellon is kicking OW's ass in what can't really be called a "war". There are rumours that GA and PoZ are going to attack Toupellon to try and steal some farmlands.
Seriously? I thought this bull!@#$ was a joke, but you're actually going to inflict this crap on the smallest island that is least able to deal with such an unbalancing force?
Quote from: Velax on April 14, 2012, 07:44:29 AM
Seriously? I thought this bull!@#$ was a joke, but you're actually going to inflict this crap on the smallest island that is least able to deal with such an unbalancing force?
Honestly, what is different from this and when a realm dies and everyone goes "Hey, let's all go to X realm!" ?
Quote from: Perth on April 14, 2012, 07:49:26 AM
Honestly, what is different from this and when a realm dies and everyone goes "Hey, let's all go to X realm!" ?
If I'm understanding your post right, the difference is this group won't be a random assortment of players, it will be a bunch of coordinated players capable of following orders perfectly and as late into the turn as they can, which gives them a pretty big advantage.
I guess you guys can go ahead with it and prove whatever point it is you're trying to prove, but it doesn't sound like it's going to be fun for anyone else.
Quote from: Broose on April 14, 2012, 08:02:07 AM
If I'm understanding your post right, the difference is this group won't be a random assortment of players, it will be a bunch of coordinated players capable of following orders perfectly and as late into the turn as they can, which gives them a pretty big advantage.
I guess you guys can go ahead with it and prove whatever point it is you're trying to prove, but it doesn't sound like it's going to be fun for anyone else.
Lies! Can't expect Foundation to follow orders. He is a member of the inactive clan!
Quote from: Broose on April 14, 2012, 08:02:07 AM
If I'm understanding your post right, the difference is this group won't be a random assortment of players, it will be a bunch of coordinated players capable of following orders perfectly and as late into the turn as they can, which gives them a pretty big advantage.
I am unsure how any realm in BM is in capable of any of things if they want them.
Also, I have no dog in the "clan" fight. I'm not involved in any of those realms nor have I entered the discussion in any way to argue either side. I was merely making on observation about this group. I just don't see the advantage unless they are using OOC means to coordinate stuff.
Quote from: Perth on April 14, 2012, 08:25:33 AM
I am unsure how any realm in BM is in capable of any of things if they want them.
Also, I have no dog in the "clan" fight. I'm not involved in any of those realms nor have I entered the discussion in any way to argue either side. I was merely making on observation about this group. I just don't see the advantage unless they are using OOC means to coordinate stuff.
I wasn't referring to the clan case either. I don't know enough about it anyways.
They have an advantage because they're gathering up into a group that will be much more active than the average realm. Losing to the other realm because your army isn't logging in as much as them is lame.
Quote from: Broose on April 14, 2012, 08:38:33 AM
They have an advantage because they're gathering up into a group that will be much more active than the average realm. Losing to the other realm because your army isn't logging in as much as them is lame.
I understand; it is just that my point is that they aren't doing anything that any other average realm cannot
choose to do as well. This group of players may
choose to be more active but the players fighting them can equally
choose to be more active as well.
This already happens. By and large, the players in the Cagilan Empire's armies
choose to be more active than a lot of other realm's players on Atamara, resulting in the Cagilans have a very effective army. Does this mean they are also playing "unfairly"? I don't see the difference here really is all.
So, for FEI:
I am ruler of Zonasa. I have also wanted to try something like this with one of our armies for a while, having people who volunteer to be more active and responsive than normal and are given extra funding because of it. So if you came to Zonasa you would be welcomed. The fact that I am ruler of Zonasa (and have another character there) also means that's the only realm I can participate in with something like this on FEI.
A basic overview of things: Arcaea just killed one realm and is now at peace. They are colonizing the area of the realm they destroyed, and may be busy with that, I don't know if they will be taking part in the upcoming war. There are . . . conflicting rumors.
Toupellon is at war with Ohnar West, and massively beating them. Toupellon is about three or four times the size of Ohnar West, so this is not even a contest. Ohnar West has been trying to find allies. They are about to get them.
It's a fairly open secret that other realms, including Zonasa, are preparing to go to war with Toupellon. The assertion earlier in the thread that Zonasa was about to make a thinly veiled land grab against Toupellon is 100% correct. Unless the political situation massively changes in the next few days, we will be at war in about a week (needless to say, don't use this info IC if you don't know IC, but I know the cat was pretty much out of the bag already with most of the major players). We are not the only ones about to go to war, but I either do not want to disclose information that is not already relatively public, or don't know for certain what other realms are going to do. But suffice to say, there is about to be war in a major way on FEI. Finally.
The political and military situation in general is thus:
Arcaea and Toupellon are the biggest and most powerful realms. They are allied, but it is uncertain exactly how strong this alliance is. No one else really likes either realm a ton, though some are friendlier with them than others.
Kindara and Zonasa are the next biggest and powerful realms. They are both allied with each other. Zonasa has historically not had good relations with Arcaea. Zonasa has problems with food supply (guess why we're going to war).
Ohnar West and Greater Aenilia are the smallest and least powerful realms. Ohnar West is getting beaten up by Toupellon. Greater Aenilia is allied to Zonasa, the generally feeling in Zonasa is that they are like an inept sidekick, we've had to bail them out a few times and they've never been very useful. Hopefully this will change.
Well, that's a basic overview. I'm sure other people can fill in a little more.
What are the political systems like? Any Republics on FEI?
If this experiment is done on FEI, I can chip in a diplomat/priest character with 80%+ oratory skill.
The main idea for this test seems good, but it will be greater if you manage to found a new realm, it doesn't matter if you gather 15 active player(called the Templars for educational purpose), you still have to adapt to the Orders and politics of the realm you Join.
I have some doubts on this, since of course, no ruler will step aside to let you do as you wish, even if we have agreement on the forums, in game the Templars will be treated as a group of mercenaries so i have some worries.
Do you have any intention of creating your own army?, playing on your own and disobey orders?. Only playing the 15 selected characters separate of the rest would result on internal conflicts within the realm, if that happens will you protest the current government?. Remember, that will go against what is fun in the game, since is a test to prove the military efficiency of active player vs casual players, not to take over the world.
Is not useful if you just bring 15 more nobles to a realm saying, "HI WE ARE THE TEMPLAR, AT YOU ORDERS!" i am more interested to see, 15 active players starting from scratch, since i have my doubts on the success of this, reasons:
Many active players like power so they will want to rule, and if they act as a soldier they will hate to be pointed out when ordered
The Templars will need to participate on the politic involvement of the continent, active players love this part of the game the most
If the Templars decided that they should take the leadership of the realm, who you determine the leader?, will you have chain of command within the group?
Once a member of the Templar disagrees with the others (which of course will happens). How will you solve things, within the group?, or the ruler of your realm will decide?
Communication is essential, will you use in game mechanism, or outside methods like Mirc, forums or facebook? on this last one you can like some one's commentary ;D.
You all have to understand that once this test create conflicts with those things that makes the game fun, the test will be a failure, as simple as that.
Because just throwing 15 new nobles to a realm not saying anything, just moving around as dummies have the same purpose as those multi-accounters.
Peace!
Quote from: Broose on April 14, 2012, 08:38:33 AMLosing to the other realm because your army isn't logging in as much as them is lame.
So what you're saying is that if you somehow know that the other side of the war doesn't log in as often as your side does, that you should pull your punches, and pretend to be incompetent? You think you should fight down to your enemy's level? Wow... what fun for *both* sides.
Quote from: GoldPanda on April 14, 2012, 11:52:14 AMWhat are the political systems like? Any Republics on FEI?
Ohnar West. Everyone else is a Monarchy.
Which is the way it should be. :D
Quote from: Indirik on April 14, 2012, 06:24:07 PM
So what you're saying is that if you somehow know that the other side of the war doesn't log in as often as your side does, that you should pull your punches, and pretend to be incompetent? You think you should fight down to your enemy's level? Wow... what fun for *both* sides.
Are you saying my inactive clan won't be able to win wars?
Here's a way I would see this being executed
First you need a region lord to found the organization. The lord should have very high leadership and swordfighting scores or else they have no credibility.
Second create a guild tied to the army, membership in this guild is for members of the army only. Have the lower ranks designed for newbies and higher ranks for founders. The newbies should have to pay a fee while the founders receive a grant. It should be strongly recommended that these grants be used to train in sword fighting and leadership.
Third Establish a tradition in the guild by which people can ascend to higher ranks through besting higher ranking nobles in single combat. In order to not kill everyone off i suggest training matches or duels to surrender. It could be graduated so early levels require only beating another in a training match, then a duel to surrender, then a duel to the death for people who want to become leader of the guild and marshal of the army. Promotions might also be gained through impressive feats at tournament. Defeated players don't lose their ranking but whoever beats them is now at least their equal. However if they suffer a set number of defeats they may be demoted. New ranks can also be gained at the guild leader/marshal's discretion based on distinguished service in battle. It might be in the marshal's best intrest to keep a vice marshal who has high leadership but not necessarily high swordsmanship thus filling a sort of beta male position.
This should create a strong tradition of combat prowess and military leadership skills which should perpetuate itself through the intrest of newer players wishing to gain the benefits of long term guild membership.
Quote from: pcw27 on April 15, 2012, 06:18:12 AM
Here's a way I would see this being executed
First you need a region lord to found the organization. The lord should have very high leadership and swordfighting scores or else they have no credibility.
Second create a guild tied to the army, membership in this guild is for members of the army only. Have the lower ranks designed for newbies and higher ranks for founders. The newbies should have to pay a fee while the founders receive a grant. It should be strongly recommended that these grants be used to train in sword fighting and leadership.
Third Establish a tradition in the guild by which people can ascend to higher ranks through besting higher ranking nobles in single combat. In order to not kill everyone off i suggest training matches or duels to surrender. It could be graduated so early levels require only beating another in a training match, then a duel to surrender, then a duel to the death for people who want to become leader of the guild and marshal of the army. Promotions might also be gained through impressive feats at tournament. Defeated players don't lose their ranking but whoever beats them is now at least their equal. However if they suffer a set number of defeats they may be demoted. New ranks can also be gained at the guild leader/marshal's discretion based on distinguished service in battle. It might be in the marshal's best intrest to keep a vice marshal who has high leadership but not necessarily high swordsmanship thus filling a sort of beta male position.
This should create a strong tradition of combat prowess and military leadership skills which should perpetuate itself through the intrest of newer players wishing to gain the benefits of long term guild membership.
Honestly I don't see the need for ranking by dueling, and just base it purely on military if you were to make the guild which even then I don't see as neccassary for this to work as they pretty much want to make an army in a realm that is really good.
So for those who stated interest:
How does joining Zonosa sound? If a war is begun within a week as expected, I'd believe that would fit the bill of what was requested. That gives enough time for us to get organized in realm, etc...
Toupellon may no longer exist in another week.
Why's that?
As I've been teeling the people in Toupelllon for months (pretty much since the las two Cathayan duchies joined) the realm geography is insupportable. The extents to which the realm is stretched is absurd. Combine that with a lack of knights, a war drawing off troops needed for maintenance, a couple lords kicked out of office due to war events, and half the realm is going to hell. We will have regions revolting tomorrow. The day after at the latest. Claude doesn't seem to be taking any definitive action to remedy things, either.
Quote from: Foundation on April 12, 2012, 08:04:27 PM
No politics, no roleplay, drones only, final boring realm.
With a little effort, this could have been a haiku.
Hehe, haikuify!
I would recommend only joining *after* the war starts. From experience, predictions of war by either side are never accurate. :)
If Toupellon disintegrates, that would mess with our plans. Let's hope it doesn't, I was looking forward to this.
Quote from: Foundation on April 15, 2012, 05:21:46 PM
Hehe, haikuify!
I would recommend only joining *after* the war starts. From experience, predictions of war by either side are never accurate. :)
Okay, I'm fine with that.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 15, 2012, 10:16:07 AM
So for those who stated interest:
How does joining Zonosa sound? If a war is begun within a week as expected, I'd believe that would fit the bill of what was requested. That gives enough time for us to get organized in realm, etc...
Come be Galen's zealots......!!
Just a thought, but it'd probably be more challenging and fun to join the losing side. Dante, could you keep an updated list of players in the first post of those who said they'd have a spare char to have fun with on FEI?
Note that my characters on FEI are already committed, but one is ruler and this is something he has wanted to try with his sponsored army for quite some time, so. . . .
Also, yes, you should totally be Galen's zealots.
Join a dying religion (that's a very, very thinly veiled BM version of Judaism, if I read right), whose sole claim to fame is that its last remaining priest was dumb enough to auto-da-fe the Judge?
Yeah, that sounds like loads of fun :P
I'm with Velax on this one. While one side gets giddy about the idea of an influx of active characters and the potential to run through the island, all of that seems to be greatly magnified (and possible) on a place like FEI that has low playerbase and only 5 realms. Honestly, 10-15 characters appearing in Zonasa all at once is nearly a 10% island-wide population boom. If you count only active, mobile soldier-types, I'd venture a guess to say that number is much closer to a 20% increase.
You do your clan-not-clan on another island and it can test military might, influence, or whatever else you want. You do it on FEI (or the Colonies, probably) and you change the face of the entire island.
On top of the fact that yeah, not sure that war is actually happening. Ceasefire is in the works already.
Toupellon has called Kindara's bluff, and offered Ohnar West a cease-fire. I wonder what PoZ/Kindara will do if OW refuses to accept.
Quote from: Morningstar on April 16, 2012, 04:11:12 PM
I'm with Velax on this one. While one side gets giddy about the idea of an influx of active characters and the potential to run through the island, all of that seems to be greatly magnified (and possible) on a place like FEI that has low playerbase and only 5 realms. Honestly, 10-15 characters appearing in Zonasa all at once is nearly a 10% island-wide population boom. If you count only active, mobile soldier-types, I'd venture a guess to say that number is much closer to a 20% increase.
You do your clan-not-clan on another island and it can test military might, influence, or whatever else you want. You do it on FEI (or the Colonies, probably) and you change the face of the entire island.
On top of the fact that yeah, not sure that war is actually happening. Ceasefire is in the works already.
To add some more statistics to the pile:
Adding 15 characters to the Principality of Zonasa would cause them to make up over a third of the realm just by themselves, and, as Morningstar points out, nearly 10% of the entire population of the continent. For comparison, the next-smallest continent by noble population is Beluaterra, where the clan would make up only a little over 5% of the continent's population, and on Atamara, they'd only be 3%.
This sort of thing would, indeed, be deeply unbalancing to the entire Far East, which really seems to me to miss the whole point of the clan discussion in the first place—that is, the real problem with clans is not so much that the people in them break the rules by their clan activities, but that clans are bad for the game
because they unbalance it.
If you want to do this, then do it on the East Continent or Atamara. There are wars aplenty on those continents—the moreso because they have nine and fourteen realms respectively, compared to the Far East Island's six—and plenty of realms that it would be possible to add an elite fighting force to without completely hijacking the entire realm for the clan (which is one of the things Tom explicitly states is not kosher in the FAQ about clans).
Quote from: Anaris on April 16, 2012, 01:07:31 PM
Join a dying religion (that's a very, very thinly veiled BM version of Judaism, if I read right), whose sole claim to fame is that its last remaining priest was dumb enough to auto-da-fe the Judge?
Yeah, that sounds like loads of fun :P
In point of fact, Galen is not the last remaining priest. There are two priests besides him, and I'd hardly qualify it as dying.
Many of us already have committed chars on EC and AT.
Quote"FEI is so BORING!"
Well, we have 15 active players who have suddenly developed an interest in FEI...
Quote"No no no don't come here you'll screw everything up!"
Stay boring then...
Quote from: GoldPanda on April 16, 2012, 08:13:24 PM
Quote"FEI is so BORING!"
Well, we have 15 active players who have suddenly developed an interest in FEI...
I never said the FEI was boring. I've been having a grand old time, and I suspect Morningstar has, too.
As with much of BattleMaster, what you get out of it is proportional to what you put in—not just in terms of time, but thought and caring.
Quote from: Anaris on April 16, 2012, 05:05:04 PM
This sort of thing would, indeed, be deeply unbalancing to the entire Far East, which really seems to me to miss the whole point of the clan discussion in the first place—that is, the real problem with clans is not so much that the people in them break the rules by their clan activities, but that clans are bad for the game because they unbalance it.
Okay, I agree with you in principle. However, I disagree with the way you're perceiving this case.
I believe clans are bad if they unbalance the game by their clan activities in and of themselves. But I don't think what I am proposing is a problem if it unbalances the game, purely because we added more nobles to an island. This statement seems completely counter active to everything I've heard about BM lacking players to put nobles on islands.
There are players with a spare character who could put that character on FEI. Am I hearing it is a bad thing to add characters to an island that needs them?
What if through massive personal marketing I managed to get 100 new characters made on FEI within the next month. (Some new players, some old players making new chars). Would this unbalance the island? Absolutely. Is that a bad thing for the game? Absolutely not. I would even argue its a great thing for the game.
One of the biggest problems with retention is that things grow stale over time and power blocs become immovable. Nothing changes, no one moves, there becomes no mobility in the hierachial structure. Well it sounds to me like the main reason against us adding new characters to FEI, is that it may cause more mobility to occur on the island. And God forbid new wars break out, or new realms are made. That would just be completely terrible to the game atmosphere.
Short version: Game balance = important, individual realm balance = less important. (Some will be stronger than others, and shaking things up every once in a while adds mobility and fun to the game. )
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 16, 2012, 08:45:24 PM
Short version: Game balance = important, individual realm balance = less important. (Some will be stronger than others, and shaking things up every once in a while adds mobility and fun to the game. )
And this, I completely disagree with.
No, it would be just fine if 15 active players had spare character slots they wanted to dedicate to characters on the FEI. It would be fine if they wanted to continue to chat about their experiences there, swap stories, tell about the pluses and minuses of the various realms they were in, and engage in a little friendly smack-talk before and after important (or unimportant! ;D ) battles. Not only do I think that would be no problem, I think it would be bloody fantastic. It would go a long way towards dispelling the feeling that so many people get that the players' of their characters' enemies should also be
their enemies.
What would not be fine is dropping 15 characters into one realm and using them to completely change the military situation on the continent for purely OOC reasons. Especially not if the reason is just to prove a point.
Think about how that feels for the people who are actually dedicated to characters on the continent: they either have a bunch of people show up in their enemy's realm, proceed to utterly destroy them in the war, and then vastly expand the reach of a realm that was, until then, relatively weak and unimportant—or, worse, have their own realm co-opted by these people, who are a voting bloc strong enough to swing any election to whatever candidate they favor, lose much of their realm identity, have any ongoing role-plays disrupted, their realm culture diluted or destroyed, and all their plans scattered to merry hell.
And then, when the people have proved their point, they lose interest and leave, and the realm that got taken over simply implodes, with its leadership gone (they controlled the voting, after all), a good chunk of its lords gone, and the artificial backbone ripped out of its military.
Quote from: Anaris on April 16, 2012, 08:55:16 PM
It would go a long way towards dispelling the feeling that so many people get that the players' of their characters' enemies should also be their enemies.
Is that how things work on FEI? People can't tell the difference between IC and OOC? Whatever happened to FEI being the "serious roleplaying" island?
I have not seen much OOC hatred between players from enemy realms, on AT, EC, or Dwilight. Some players in Fontan had gotten warnings for OOC attacks, but that's really a case of players who hate each other and still trying to play in the same realm.
Quote from: GoldPanda on April 16, 2012, 09:04:34 PM
Is that how things work on FEI? People can't tell the difference between IC and OOC?
I was speaking in general terms, because that's what tends to happen throughout BattleMaster, on all islands. It's just part of human nature.
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Whatever happened to FEI being the "serious roleplaying" island?
That designation was officially removed years ago. The only continent with any kind of special designation as far as conduct is Dwilight with SMA.
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I have not seen much OOC hatred between players from enemy realms, on AT, EC, or Dwilight. Some players in Fontan had gotten warnings for OOC attacks, but that's really a case of players who hate each other and still trying to play in the same realm.
You haven't seen the ranting and insults in the clan threads? You haven't seen what people in realms CE has destroyed say about CE—or what CE, in turn, says about them?
People have tribe mentalities. Choosing to join separate realms, but maintain friendly, active contact via the forums can break the natural "us vs them" impulses we all have and push BattleMaster back towards playing like friends around the table.
Quote from: Anaris on April 16, 2012, 08:55:16 PM
What would not be fine is dropping 15 characters into one realm and using them to completely change the military situation on the continent for purely OOC reasons. Especially not if the reason is just to prove a point.
Think about how that feels for the people who are actually dedicated to characters on the continent:
Seriously?
The most active players in this game, are usually the ones who are the ones most dedicated to their characters as well. I am certain that if I make a character with this, that I will be 100% dedicated to that character and still RP'ing him just like any other. Is it a problem then if I choose to RP this character as a string military brat, unlike many of my others who are political maniacs?
Also, this is NOT to simply prove a point. If it was to prove a point, I would have stopped encouraging discussion of this as soon as Tom had read the post. This is and was from the beginning a legitimate idea.
Again, we'll have plenty of IC reasons for things once it is actually begun, but the only OOC connection is knowing that other players are interested in joining the same realm from the beginning.
I don't know how many times I've been told that it doesn't matter if my IC plans are ruined by other characters. That's part of the game, that's part of the fun of adapting to what others do and engaging in a mutual gaming experience. Will everyone be happy with the way things turn out? Probably not, but they'll also have a lot more interesting things happening in FEI while this goes on. There is also no reason that it needs to stop at any point.
Let's say we add 15 new characters to realm X on FEI. Realm X is now much stronger militarily. However, realm X could quickly be destroyed if it starts winning wars right away, because all the other realms immediately team up on it. Or, realm X could take over some more land, and then grow stronger. Then some greedy duke decides to secede and make a new realm. Perhaps 3 new realms are spawned, and FEI actually starts looking like a more engaging island again.
I even have IC reasons to go to FEI, multiple in fact, family contacts among some of these other players whom I could send a young noble to, to help out their cause if I wanted to. I'm sure nearly every other interested candidate has an IC reason they could use as well. Does that change anything? I say it shouldn't, which means that it doesn't matter from the beginning.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 16, 2012, 10:02:59 PM
Seriously?
The most active players in this game, are usually the ones who are the ones most dedicated to their characters as well. I am certain that if I make a character with this, that I will be 100% dedicated to that character and still RP'ing him just like any other. Is it a problem then if I choose to RP this character as a string military brat, unlike many of my others who are political maniacs?
Made me lol because of
Quote from: Anaris on April 16, 2012, 08:55:16 PM
What would not be fine is dropping 15 characters into one realm and using them to completely change the military situation on the continent for purely OOC reasons. Especially not if the reason is just to prove a point.
"why cant I RP a military brat?"
has nothing to do with
"putting 15 characters (OOCly) into a realm to change things with an OOC goal/purpose"
as for the military brat thing?
By all means! I know my character I am playing I am RPing out as an expansionist/militaristic mindset type.
He wants a Sparta style society
Quote from: Masochist on April 16, 2012, 10:07:48 PM
Made me lol because of
"why cant I RP a military brat?"
has nothing to do with
"putting 15 characters (OOCly) into a realm to change things with an OOC goal/purpose"
Did you read the rest of my message where I explained that there are IC reasons for moving characters there?
I sure did...but how does that change the OOC premise of such a thing?
Giving it an RP coating doesn't change that at its core its still the OOC issue/action of bolstering a single place in a clan like nature to create a powerhouse military.
That said...if you can pull it off RPly...this thread shouldn't really exist...you should be in game RPing it out and coordinating things in game and in a legitimate manner.
Quote from: Masochist on April 16, 2012, 10:13:30 PM
I sure did...but how does that change the OOC premise of such a thing?
Giving it an RP coating doesn't change that at its core its still the OOC issue/action of bolstering a single place in a clan like nature to create a powerhouse military.
That said...if you can pull it off RPly...this thread shouldn't really exist...you should be in game RPing it out and coordinating things in game and in a legitimate manner.
Well, seeing as what I've proposed has been given the OK as within the rules of the game, giving it an RP coating is exactly the way to go about this. I mean, when an IC friend asks for religious zealots, I must help him...
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 16, 2012, 10:02:59 PM
The most active players in this game, are usually the ones who are the ones most dedicated to their characters as well. I am certain that if I make a character with this, that I will be 100% dedicated to that character and still RP'ing him just like any other. Is it a problem then if I choose to RP this character as a string military brat, unlike many of my others who are political maniacs?
No, that is not a problem at all. As has been said, so many times that I feel like I ought to be hitting you over the head with a stack of papers with the posts written on them, none of the problem here is about individual actions. It's about the aggregate.
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Also, this is NOT to simply prove a point. If it was to prove a point, I would have stopped encouraging discussion of this as soon as Tom had read the post. This is and was from the beginning a legitimate idea.
No, it's to prove a point. It's to prove that you can make a legitimate "forum clan" that has all the benefits of a regular clan militarily, without the danger of getting mass-deported or otherwise punished. It may
also be because you think being part of a clan like that would be fun, but the primary reason was, and still is, to prove the point.
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Again, we'll have plenty of IC reasons for things once it is actually begun, but the only OOC connection is knowing that other players are interested in joining the same realm from the beginning.
It's really hard to take seriously any talk of "IC reasons" when it's plainly obvious—and, indeed, the entire
point—that this endeavor was organized OOC, for OOC reasons.
Any "IC reasons" you and the others come up with will be nothing more than a thin excuse for why you want to take over a realm and destroy its structure and culture for your own ends.
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I don't know how many times I've been told that it doesn't matter if my IC plans are ruined by other characters. That's part of the game, that's part of the fun of adapting to what others do and engaging in a mutual gaming experience. Will everyone be happy with the way things turn out? Probably not, but they'll also have a lot more interesting things happening in FEI while this goes on. There is also no reason that it needs to stop at any point.
I don't mind too much if my IC plans are ruined by other characters, either. What I do mind is if they're ruined by a completely OOC plan that just happens to land in my realm—or gets urged to come to my realm by the people on the other side of the IC table.
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Let's say we add 15 new characters to realm X on FEI. Realm X is now much stronger militarily. However, realm X could quickly be destroyed if it starts winning wars right away, because all the other realms immediately team up on it. Or, realm X could take over some more land, and then grow stronger. Then some greedy duke decides to secede and make a new realm. Perhaps 3 new realms are spawned, and FEI actually starts looking like a more engaging island again.
Or, as more usually happens, the continent is caught off guard, the realm's enemies lose half their regions in the first surprising onslaught, and the other realms on the continent, seeing that the realm that was joined is powerful, decide to join the winning side lest they end up getting hurt, too. Then
either the "forum clan", having done what it came to do, gets bored and leaves, as I said earlier, or they decide to stick around and hang onto the power they've gained. The 3-way secession that was talked about earlier gets put off and put off, because really, you need more people to support that, and there are threatening noises coming from the south...
...and before you know it, a year has passed, and the FEI is in complete stagnation because everyone's afraid to declare war first. Because they know that whoever does will get the clan realm jumping on them and slaughtering them.
Which of those sounds like the situation that would be more likely to
actually happen in the BM you and I both play in? Rather than the Ideal World BM we'd love to have?
Quote
I even have IC reasons to go to FEI, multiple in fact, family contacts among some of these other players whom I could send a young noble to, to help out their cause if I wanted to. I'm sure nearly every other interested candidate has an IC reason they could use as well. Does that change anything? I say it shouldn't, which means that it doesn't matter from the beginning.
Again, my objection has nothing to do with what your character does. Come to the FEI, do whatever you want, for whatever reasons you want,
by yourself. It's only when you get 15 people all doing the same things for OOC reasons that it becomes a problem.
Where's the Like button for Anaris's post?
I've had characters go to FEI, not to gain power in realms or smash other kingdoms, but rather as missionaries to spread their Faith. And has nothing to do with this concept.
Sucks they couldn't remain priests when immigrating, but I'll make do.
Well, my free noble slot is now gone. I'll be playing alongside Zak in Perdan, sorry. :-/
One thing I would like to say that Anaris has ignored is by talking like they plan on taking over the realm is that its not true. You say they will cheat in elections so they all get lord spots but it was already said that they will roleplay seperately and not take over the realm but just try to make a really good army in the realm they have chosen. Also I do understand Anaris's point of adding 15 characters to one realm in the Far East would be a bad idea due to the fact you are unbalancing the entire continent unless you join seperate realms. One way to make the Far East more interesting could be to have a couple of the military dominance players to join each realm and start making big wars happen.
Quote from: Penchant on April 16, 2012, 10:57:10 PM
One thing I would like to say that Anaris has ignored is by talking like they plan on taking over the realm is that its not true. You say they will cheat in elections so they all get lord spots but it was already said that they will roleplay seperately and not take over the realm but just try to make a really good army in the realm they have chosen.
I am skeptical about this. Not so much about intentions, but about practicalities and realities. As I've mentioned, humans tend to think tribally, and the "forum clan" would feel more like "us" than the rest of the realm, and thus there would be a natural tendency to prefer them over others for any kind of choice where one has to take sides.
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Also I do understand Anaris's point of adding 15 characters to one realm in the Far East would be a bad idea due to the fact you are unbalancing the entire continent unless you join seperate realms. One way to make the Far East more interesting could be to have a couple of the military dominance players to join each realm and start making big wars happen.
I think that this would be a
much more interesting and fascinating experiment.
We know more or less what happens when you drop a dozen or so active, ambitious, militarily-inclined nobles into a realm at war. Wouldn't it be much more fun to see what would happen if you tried something
no one has ever tried before?
(I mean, obviously it's less fun if what you want to do is prove a point to Tom, or guarantee that you'll be on the winning side of any given war, or even guarantee yourself a voting bloc. But since none of those are
supposed to be what the point is...)
Quote from: Anaris on April 16, 2012, 09:08:15 PM
You haven't seen what people in realms CE has destroyed say about CE—or what CE, in turn, says about them? People have tribe mentalities.
We assume of others what we know to be true of ourselves. ;) Are you sure you're not just projecting?
I have not seen any CE players OOCly trash-talking about players from the northern realms or Carelia. I did rant about the anti-CE propaganda that was smeared all over the forums, and was assured by people that they bore no actual OOC hatred for an entity that, err, only exists in a game, that they were just teasing. Which makes sense. I feel rather silly about ranting now. (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1945.0.html)
I'm not exactly drowning in hate mail either.
I would like to think that the vast majority of players still think of this game as "board game night at Tom's place."
Quote from: Anaris on April 16, 2012, 01:07:31 PM
Join a dying religion (that's a very, very thinly veiled BM version of Judaism, if I read right), whose sole claim to fame is that its last remaining priest was dumb enough to auto-da-fe the Judge?
Yeah, that sounds like loads of fun :P
*Ahem* We have
THREE Priests total thank you very much. I don't think we are "dying" by any means. Small? Sure, but far from dead. "Dumb enough," I don't know, it's been almost a month and he's gotten off scotch-free so far and has minority support in the realm. Just cause your character doesn't like him doesn't mean everything he does it stupid or won't work out.
Quote from: Perth on April 17, 2012, 12:34:32 AM
*Ahem* We have THREE Priests total thank you very much. I don't think we are "dying" by any means. Small? Sure, but far from dead.
Sorry, I thought I had heard that Echad only had the one priest ;D
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"Dumb enough," I don't know, it's been almost a month and he's gotten off scotch-free so far and has minority support in the realm. Just cause your character doesn't like him doesn't mean everything he does it stupid or won't work out.
Um...one doesn't usually refer to someone on trial for treason as having gotten off scot-free.
Quote from: Anaris on April 17, 2012, 03:04:26 AM
Um...one doesn't usually refer to someone on trial for treason as having gotten off scot-free.
Sure they do. Case 1: Brom.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 17, 2012, 03:26:49 AM
Sure they do. Case 1: Brom.
Is Brom now, at this very second, on trial for treason?
Quote from: Anaris on April 17, 2012, 04:18:58 AM
Is Brom now, at this very second, on trial for treason?
Nope, but he has been in the past, and I claimed at that very point that I got off scot-free. Still do for the most part.
Man, I sure throw things off topic.
btw, for whoever asked, I'll make a list on the first post tomorrow.
Quote from: Anaris on April 17, 2012, 04:18:58 AM
Is Brom now, at this very second, on trial for treason?
No, he just got banned for it :)
Quote from: De-Legro on April 17, 2012, 04:24:51 AM
No, he just got banned for it :)
That's just the public reason.
Brom doesn't get banned for things he does wrong. Only things he does right.
Banning is like an honorary degree, realms give it to those recognized by all for their epicness.
Quote from: Foundation on April 17, 2012, 04:39:42 AM
Banning is like an honorary degree, realms give it to those recognized by all for their epicness.
I like this guy...we seriously need to play in a realm together.
You have. I think he was around when we smashed Giask ;)
Quote from: Sacha on April 17, 2012, 11:58:19 AM
You have. I think he was around when we smashed Giask ;)
That doesn't really count. I wasn't even around during that time. The whole reason that happened was because I didn't have enough time to play the game, so my region revolted.
1. Send Brom to Kabrinskia.
2. ? ? ?
3. Kabrinskia goes down in flames.
4. PROFIT (for D'Hara!)
Quote from: GoldPanda on April 17, 2012, 11:36:06 PM
1. Send Brom to Kabrinskia.
2. ? ? ?
3. Kabrinskia goes down in flames.
4. PROFIT (for D'Hara!)
1. Allison and Brom become friends/co-conspirators.
2. ????
3. Profit....Profit....oooh, sooo much Profit.
Quote from: Anaris on April 17, 2012, 03:04:26 AM
Um...one doesn't usually refer to someone on trial for treason as having gotten off scot-free.
One doesn't usually refer to what is happening in Zonasa as a trial.
But honestly, though I don't know if Galen will ultimately get away with it, he's really handled the situation quite well, all things being considered. And the prosecution has really not argued their case very well. Left far too many loopholes.
Quote from: GoldPanda on April 16, 2012, 11:16:39 PM
We assume of others what we know to be true of ourselves. ;) Are you sure you're not just projecting?
I have not seen any CE players OOCly trash-talking about players from the northern realms or Carelia. I did rant about the anti-CE propaganda that was smeared all over the forums, and was assured by people that they bore no actual OOC hatred for an entity that, err, only exists in a game, that they were just teasing. Which makes sense. I feel rather silly about ranting now. (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1945.0.html)
I'm not exactly drowning in hate mail either.
I would like to think that the vast majority of players still think of this game as "board game night at Tom's place."
Don't know what CE threads you've been on...
Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on April 18, 2012, 07:05:17 PM
Don't know what CE threads you've been on...
Let's see some links then. :D
Edited first post with updated list.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 17, 2012, 05:53:02 PM
That doesn't really count. I wasn't even around during that time. The whole reason that happened was because I didn't have enough time to play the game, so my region revolted.
That, and nobody was sending you food anymore 8)
Quote from: Sacha on April 18, 2012, 11:01:34 PM
That, and nobody was sending you food anymore 8)
Well yes obviously. If I was active, I would have noticed almost immediately and rectified the issue. OR brought up the time frame of the planned secession.
Well, believe it or not, that was the initial angle of the food depravation. Lure Brom out on stage, and open the trap door :p
Dante, please edit me out as I no longer intend to participate. :)
If this were going to actually happen wouldn't it work better on a bigger continent say Dwlight. The RP atmosphere I hear is growing quite large with it's new group of players. Soon I think war will erupt or may already have erupted.
I for one think it would bring a interesting rp into the realm that a group settles in.
I know nothing of FEI just that it far off somewhere in the east...
You know where this could of been good... The old War islands before they disappeared under the sea
I think Brom is running out of places to go around Dwilight :p
Come to Aurvandil!
Quote from: Sacha on April 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I think Brom is running out of places to go around Dwilight :p
Don't worry, I still have SA to go to. I'll be the true harbringer of the end of their dominance.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 21, 2012, 12:16:52 AM
Don't worry, I still have SA to go to. I'll be the true harbringer of the end of their dominance.
They only dominate in the North.
Allison seemed to believed she could pull them down south to do her bidding. So far, we proved her wrong. The South-West is no longer a collection of ravaged wildlands with palisaded encampments as capitals.