Quote from: Solari on May 22, 2012, 05:48:45 PM
Are you assuming that there are no appointments to the regions in the duchy? If so, does anyone have experience with the resulting penalties? Because we're going to be stretched thin.
Which reminds me... SOLARIA: NOW HIRING.
No, I see that some of the regions have appointments. But you could make them temporary, for the purposes of stabilizing the regions and aligning them to a new duchy.
And there are no penalties, other than 50% tax and inability to perform food functions.
Quote from: egamma on May 22, 2012, 07:57:51 PMNo, I see that some of the regions have appointments. But you could make them temporary, for the purposes of stabilizing the regions and aligning them to a new duchy.
Except that "temporary" or "placeholder" positions are pretty much against the rules...
Quote from: Indirik on May 22, 2012, 07:58:51 PM
Except that "temporary" or "placeholder" positions are pretty much against the rules...
The lords do not
have to step down. But if they decide that they can get twice as much income as a knight of Poratown, than as lord of South Divide, then you can hardly blame them for deciding that the lordship isn't worth a 50% pay cut.
Yeah, and when *every* lord you appoint sticks around for a week, realigns the region to the right duchy, and steps down, don't you think that's a bit suspicious?
Instead of trying to find loopholes all the time, you could try playing inside the rules.
Quote from: Indirik on May 22, 2012, 08:02:41 PM
Yeah, and when *every* lord you appoint sticks around for a week, realigns the region to the right duchy, and steps down, don't you think that's a bit suspicious?
I would. But I wouldn't find it suspicious if over several months a natural attrition and desire for gold pulls most of them back to the heartland regions.
That only works if you don't come to the forum first and tell everyone you're going to have temporary place holder lordships for all those regions.
Quote from: Indirik on May 22, 2012, 08:56:55 PM
That only works if you don't come to the forum first and tell everyone you're going to have temporary place holder lordships for all those regions.
Maybe Tom is against this but in my mind I don't see this as against the rules because they aren't place holders really, they are expected to do their job as a lord and get the region running well not just sit there and ignore the job like a placeholder. Them stepping down is unenforcable by the realm so it will likely take awhile.
A lordship isn't a "job". There is a clear rule, as stated on the wiki, about temporary positions. It simply is not allowed. You appoint the person you want to have the position, period.
If you wouldn't be happy with that person having the position for the next sixth months, don't appoint them. If you wouldn't be happy having that position for the next six months, don't take it. Yes, people can change their minds. But if you go into it thinking "I will only have it for a week, then I'm going back where I was", that's not changing ykour mind, is it?
With all the talk in other threads about enforcing the hierarchy, and making it mean something, it's really sad to see stuff like this. This is the exact opposite of the spirit of the game.
It's also OT for this thread...
Quote from: Indirik on May 22, 2012, 08:56:55 PM
That only works if you don't come to the forum first and tell everyone you're going to have temporary place holder lordships for all those regions.
True.
Although: why would they
force someone to give up a lordship? Presumably it would be acceptable for them to appoint people, then just not frown on stepping down from lordships in borderlands. Probably some people would take the lower income just for the sake of the title, while others would do a stint there for some name recognition and prestige, then return.
From a Magistrate's perspective, it'd be hard to distinguish between a "temporary position" and a person who got frustrated with extremely low incomes on an individual basis; if lots of lords did it, we might be able to tell: but if maybe 2 did it? I don't know how we'd know besides hoping the people confessed.
Let's create a new topic for the temporary lordship question, please. :)
Quote from: Indirik on May 22, 2012, 08:56:55 PM
That only works if you don't come to the forum first and tell everyone you're going to have temporary place holder lordships for all those regions.
I don't even have a character in Solaria. I'm just thinking aloud about how to work around a game deficiency--namely, that regions cannot be re-sized.
Quote from: Indirik on May 22, 2012, 11:49:58 PM
You appoint the person you want to have the position, period. If you wouldn't be happy with that person having the position for the next sixth months, don't appoint them.
I am not suggesting that Solaria should force, or expect, the lords to step down.
Quote from: Indirik on May 22, 2012, 11:49:58 PM
If you wouldn't be happy having that position for the next six months, don't take it.
And what if someone appoints you
against your will? If you forget to check the check-box refusing lordship, then you could very well end up with one, especially if your liege is also the duke in control of the lordless region--kick out of estate, then appoint to Lordship. Maybe they want your tax gold; maybe they want the estate for someone they like better; maybe you're a pain in the rear and they want to get rid of you in a way that seems to others like a promotion.
Just in case you missed it, I'll say it again:
I do not have a character in Solaria. I'm just speaking possibilities.
Those are all possible scenarios. But none of them are what you described in your original post. Which makes them all irrelevant.
I'm not looking for legitimate ways in which someone could hold a lordship for a short period of time. Of course it can happen, under the right circumstances. What I'm saying, and what is clearly defined, is that temporary or placeholder positions are not allowed.
For the purposes of discussing it here, it also makes no difference whether you have a character in the realm or not.
But what we're saying, Indirik, is that the Magistrates might be hard pressed to determine if they are "temporary lordships" or just legitimately short tenures. Not impossible, but certainly not an easy, clear-cut thing, short of somebody confessing.
Yes, I agree that it would be difficult to tell, in many cases. Unless there was a paper trail discussing it. And if it is truly a temporary appointment, there most likely will be one.
Nevertheless, the difficulty of proving it in a Magistrates case does not mean that it is something that should be advocated on the forums.
Okay, the word temporary is bad. I'll avoid it. Can we please discuss this without accusing me of "trying to find loopholes all the time"? Or at least send me a PM where I've done that. I haven't been the subject of any Titan investigations or Magistrate cases, at least to my knowledge.
Back on topic:
What if the lord of the Alley of Swords steps down in order to be appointed duke/margrave of Balance Retreat? It's a step up in prestige, and certainly a move that almost any real noble would make. How else do you handle fact that the Alley of Swords needed to be taken in order to TO Balance Retreat?
Quote from: egamma on May 23, 2012, 06:03:48 PM
What if the lord of the Alley of Swords steps down in order to be appointed duke/margrave of Balance Retreat? It's a step up in prestige, and certainly a move that almost any real noble would make. How else do you handle fact that the Alley of Swords needed to be taken in order to TO Balance Retreat?
But if you knew you were planning on taking BR almost immediately,
and you knew you would be appointing Noble X as its Margrave,
why would you appoint him as Lord of the Alley of Swords?
Quote from: Anaris on May 23, 2012, 06:13:20 PM
But if you knew you were planning on taking BR almost immediately, and you knew you would be appointing Noble X as its Margrave, why would you appoint him as Lord of the Alley of Swords?
Lordship through election?
Quote from: egamma on May 23, 2012, 06:17:31 PM
Lordship through election?
...is a completely different issue, for various reasons. The two most prominent, in my mind, are that an election is not a certainty, and that you don't "step down" to become the Lord of the new region—it automatically removes you from Lordship if you win.
Being elected to Region A, then Region B shortly thereafter is not a problem, and has never been seen as a "temporary lordship"—
unless there is positive evidence that this was planned, rather than just how things turned out.
Quote from: egamma on May 23, 2012, 06:03:48 PMOkay, the word temporary is bad. I'll avoid it. Can we please discuss this without accusing me of "trying to find loopholes all the time"? Or at least send me a PM where I've done that. I haven't been the subject of any Titan investigations or Magistrate cases, at least to my knowledge.
Sorry, I didn't mean "you" as in "egamma", it was more of a general "you" as in "the playerbase". We *just* had a discussion about duchy recruitment thread where people are talking about tightening up the hierarchy, and making it more meaningful. Then we get this thread talking about temporary lordships, which is exactly the opposite. It just ruffled my feathers.
QuoteWhat if the lord of the Alley of Swords steps down in order to be appointed duke/margrave of Balance Retreat? It's a step up in prestige, and certainly a move that almost any real noble would make. How else do you handle fact that the Alley of Swords needed to be taken in order to TO Balance Retreat?
Again, you're just making rationalizations to support the the idea that there must be *some* way in which we can legitimize a temporary lordship. Well, it's not going to work.
Yes, there are situations in which a lordship may only last a short while. That's fine, so long as the appointer/appointee did not go into it knowing that it would only last a few days. That's fine. You'll still pay a penalty in H/P for stepping down too soon. But it's not an abuse, nor a placeholder/temporary lordship. It's only a problem when you appoint/accept a lordship knowing that it will only be for a few days.
To put things in perspective, I think there was a case last year some time in Sirion where the lord of a region emigrated to another island. When he left, he named someone else that would be the lord until he got back. Six RL months later, the guy came back and asked for his lordship back because he was "the rightful lord", or something like that. He got it back, a report was filed, and the Titans ruled it was a "placeholder" appointment. If you give up the position, then *it is no longer yours*, period. If you are given it, then *you are the rightful holder*, period.
There is no "lord for a day" program, or a regency/steward system.
The best thing to do, assuming that nobody wants the lordships long-term, would be to not appoint anyone in the first place.
Two problems with that:
1. If you did have automatic elections, then they will automatically kick off, every 3 days, for eternity. We get enough message spam already, don't we?
2. There's no way to align the regions to a duchy without appointing a lord.
Quote from: egamma on May 23, 2012, 07:54:17 PM
The best thing to do, assuming that nobody wants the lordships long-term, would be to not appoint anyone in the first place.
Bingo.
Quote1. If you did have automatic elections, then they will automatically kick off, every 3 days, for eternity. We get enough message spam already, don't we?
As soon as your temp lord resigns, you'll get another election. So what's your point?
Quote2. There's no way to align the regions to a duchy without appointing a lord.
Newly captured regions are automatically assigned to a duchy. There are no more "imperial" regions.
Quote from: Indirik on May 23, 2012, 08:02:35 PM
As soon as your temp lord resigns, you'll get another election. So what's your point?
No, I mean if there is no temp lord, a newly TO'ed region. Election starts automatically. Nobody runs, nobody wins. Election starts automatically. Nobody runs, nobody wins. Will this continue forever?
Quote from: Indirik on May 23, 2012, 08:02:35 PM
Newly captured regions are automatically assigned to a duchy. There are no more "imperial" regions.
I know. How is the duchy chosen?
I guess what I'm asking for is for when a duke has a lordless, knightless region in his duchy, to give that duke the ability to give the region to another duchy. Rulers can do this already, why not dukes?
And yes, I know this is an edge case, and therefore not a programming priority.
Quote from: egamma on May 23, 2012, 08:46:41 PM
No, I mean if there is no temp lord, a newly TO'ed region. Election starts automatically. Nobody runs, nobody wins. Election starts automatically. Nobody runs, nobody wins. Will this continue forever?
Yes.
If you want to run with deliberately lordless regions for any significant amount of time, you can bloody well deal with a little bit of message spam.
Quote
I know. How is the duchy chosen?
By the game, when the TO finishes, based on adjacent duchies.
Quote
I guess what I'm asking for is for when a duke has a lordless, knightless region in his duchy, to give that duke the ability to give the region to another duchy. Rulers can do this already, why not dukes?
And yes, I know this is an edge case, and therefore not a programming priority.
You're darn right it's not. Again, we are deliberately
not making it easy to run with loads of lordless regions.
If you want to do that, you do so at your own risk, accepting the consequences, and not trying to get around them by breaking rules like "no temporary lordships."
I just think it's silly to have regions with a max population of 350.
If you choose to appoint a temp lord, as soon as he resigns, you start getting election notices again. So appointing a temp lord gets you nothing.
So far as I know, there are no plans to allow dukes to give regions to another duchy. If you want that ability, file a feature request.
As for low max population, what does that have to do with temporary lords? It certainly doesn't justify it.
dukes dumping regions to another duke... sort of mooted in...
http://bugs.battlemaster.org/view.php?id=6576
think that was eh.. dismissed or something.
but what does that have to do with temp lords? i mean.. if a duke wants to give a lordless region to another duke.. who will presumably appoint a lord (otherwise.. why bother?) then all he has to do.. is to find out who the other duke will appoint, and appoint him himself
Quote from: Indirik on May 23, 2012, 09:03:51 PM
If you choose to appoint a temp lord, as soon as he resigns, you start getting election notices again. So appointing a temp lord gets you nothing.
So far as I know, there are no plans to allow dukes to give regions to another duchy. If you want that ability, file a feature request.
As for low max population, what does that have to do with temporary lords? It certainly doesn't justify it.
Consider the dead horse thoroughly flogged. What I really want is not to justify temporary lords, but a way for a duke to scrape together several regions worth of income and make a decent income for himself.
This could encourage Terran, for example, to attack the Zuma, and take over their lands.
I will file the feature request shortly.
why can't it be done with existing mechanics?
you just need... a bunch of priests, courtiers and the judge (and presumably an army doing civil work/police work) and hope the region doesn't either go tits up or get pinched.
obviously you'll have no access to the food bits.
Quote from: fodder on May 23, 2012, 09:25:52 PM
why can't it be done with existing mechanics?
Nowhere have we said that you
can't run with lots of lordless regions. Just that it's never going to be encouraged.
precisely. so why is there a need to find some new way of doing it?
Quote from: egamma on May 23, 2012, 09:18:33 PM
This could encourage Terran, for example, to attack the Zuma, and take over their lands.
You know, I actually hadn't thought of that. If regional incomes could be effectively combined, taking those badlands could actually be worthwhile. And I can just imagine how fun it would be to be duke of the badlands and have no knights or lords: you wander around unruly, depopulated lands, holding court in empty estates, collecting inefficient taxes... it'd be fun from an RP perspective.
(which does not justify temporary lordships, just fleshing out egamma's suggestion that there should be some mechanism for doing this)
I've been thinking about this ever since you (or was it Hireshmont?) said, in another thread, that there was no benefit to going to war with the Zuma because the regions are crap. But if one or two people collected the income of all the Zuma lands...then you're talking a tidy sum.
Quote from: Vellos on May 24, 2012, 02:25:30 AM
You know, I actually hadn't thought of that. If regional incomes could be effectively combined, taking those badlands could actually be worthwhile. And I can just imagine how fun it would be to be duke of the badlands and have no knights or lords: you wander around unruly, depopulated lands, holding court in empty estates, collecting inefficient taxes... it'd be fun from an RP perspective.
(which does not justify temporary lordships, just fleshing out egamma's suggestion that there should be some mechanism for doing this)
And with the new ability to give specific names to duchies it could end up being a pretty cool RP thing, for sure.