The right to attend a tournament is closely guarded. What about the right to not attend? Can you be ordered to attend a tournament?
Interesting question.
My first instinct would be to say yes. Your right to go to any tournament you want is indisputable. Being ordered to go does not violate that right. If people think it should be otherwise, then the IR itself needs to be reworded.
Out of curiosity, what motivation could you possibly have to do this? Are you charging an outrageous entry fee or something?
I remember having this discussion before, but I can't remember where it ended up. :(
Or trying to get loyalists somewhere else, or trying to expose knights to something new, or I think my knight has a good chance and I want to bring honor to my realm, or I want to bring back up with me during political discussions at the tourney, or I want to sponsor them to go in exchange for a portion of the purse should they win.
Many possible reasons :P
Seems to me the right is "deciding to go to tournaments".
Quote from: Foundation on June 01, 2012, 06:56:32 PM
Seems to me the right is "deciding to go to tournaments".
Perhaps, but that's not exactly what is says. The exact line is, "Going to tournaments". Moreover, every single discussion I've ever seen about this IR has always been had in the context of someone feeling as though they were being ordered or requested
not to go. If it is supposed to run both ways, then the IR itself should be reworded to your line: "Deciding to go to tournaments," or even better "Deciding
whether to go to tournaments."
It simply has never come up this way around.
My gut feeling is that ordering people to attend a tournament isn't kosher. Though I wouldn't phrase it as an IR, because inviting them, or even asking them to attend is fine with me. Fining or otherwise punishing them for not doing it, on the other hand, I wouldn't want to see.
Quote from: Tom on June 01, 2012, 08:46:50 PM
It simply has never come up this way around.
My gut feeling is that ordering people to attend a tournament isn't kosher. Though I wouldn't phrase it as an IR, because inviting them, or even asking them to attend is fine with me. Fining or otherwise punishing them for not doing it, on the other hand, I wouldn't want to see.
My feeling about this is that it's either OK or it isn't, and if it isn't then we need to
say it isn't.
I get your point about not wanting to apply the "don't even touch it with a ten-foot pole" IR standard to this particular scenario, but I don't like the idea of creating pseudo-rules that aren't clearly defined anywhere but could nonetheless land someone in trouble. Could we add a small section to the IR page to clarify this particular scenario? We can specify that we won't apply as strict a standard to it as the normal scenario, but I would really feel better if we publish it somewhere if it's something that we might potentially hand out punishments for in the future.
Quote from: Geronus on June 01, 2012, 09:05:49 PM
My feeling about this is that it's either OK or it isn't, and if it isn't then we need to say it isn't.
I get your point about not wanting to apply the "don't even touch it with a ten-foot pole" IR standard to this particular scenario, but I don't like the idea of creating pseudo-rules that aren't clearly defined anywhere but could nonetheless land someone in trouble. Could we add a small section to the IR page to clarify this particular scenario? We can specify that we won't apply as strict a standard to it as the normal scenario, but I would really feel better if we publish it somewhere if it's something that we might potentially hand out punishments for in the future.
I tend to agree. Clear-cut rules are better, advisable and inadvisable behavior policies tend to create frustration for nothing.
Imo, we should consider the reason for the IR right to exist in the first place to determine if it should apply to being ordered to attend. Any OOC arguments that I can think of to justify why going to tournaments is an IR do not warrant the right going both ways.
This seems obvious to me. You have a right to decide if you go to a tournament or not. Done.
Quote from: Vellos on June 01, 2012, 11:50:32 PM
This seems obvious to me. You have a right to decide if you go to a tournament or not. Done.
That wasn't what the IR used to be, however. It was clear that Tom wrote it with only the right to attend in mind, not the right to refuse to go.
I'm of the opinion that we should only have IRs for really important stuff. I see no reason to consider the right to refuse to go to a tournament as important on an OOC level.
/me agrees with Vellos.
This isn't a new right. It is a further definition or interpretation of an existing.
Quote from: Vellos on June 01, 2012, 11:50:32 PM
This seems obvious to me. You have a right to decide if you go to a tournament or not. Done.
But, as Tom obliquely pointed out, if you wrap it into the existing IR, you're binding yourself to applying the IR standards to it: Do not touch it with a ten foot pole. Therefore even a request to attend a tournament would be grounds for punishment.
Either way I don't think the current IR's wording makes it clear that this would be forbidden, which is a problem to me if we were going to start enforcing it this way.
Quote from: Geronus on June 02, 2012, 06:10:20 AM
But, as Tom obliquely pointed out, if you wrap it into the existing IR, you're binding yourself to applying the IR standards to it: Do not touch it with a ten foot pole. Therefore even a request to attend a tournament would be grounds for punishment.
Either way I don't think the current IR's wording makes it clear that this would be forbidden, which is a problem to me if we were going to start enforcing it this way.
Should it be an IR to *not* go, then an announcement would definitely need to be made and the wording changed.
I see no point in making this an IR, though, and consider that the current wording does not make it one.
I will not make this an IR nor change the wording to include it.
The matter has never come up before, and is still theoretical from what I read here. Therfore, I simply don't see the need for a rule. The original question was answered, if this comes up and is a problem, we will deal with it.
But I won't make it an IR due to the consequences outlined. I wouldn't mind a bit of incentive for going to tournaments, or even pressure - more potential for roleplaying.
Quote from: Tom on June 02, 2012, 08:53:53 PM
I will not make this an IR nor change the wording to include it.
The matter has never come up before, and is still theoretical from what I read here. Therfore, I simply don't see the need for a rule. The original question was answered, if this comes up and is a problem, we will deal with it.
But I won't make it an IR due to the consequences outlined. I wouldn't mind a bit of incentive for going to tournaments, or even pressure - more potential for roleplaying.
It may be theoretical in the sense of no one has complained yet, but it
has happened that people have been strongly encouraged to attend tournaments. When Jenred and Edara got married at a tournament, for instance, Jenred made it quite clear he expected high attendance from Arcaeans, and while there was no explicit punishment for those who didn't, at least one lordship went to someone else because of tournament attendance.
Quote from: Bedwyr on June 02, 2012, 11:07:08 PM
It may be theoretical in the sense of no one has complained yet, but it has happened that people have been strongly encouraged to attend tournaments. When Jenred and Edara got married at a tournament, for instance, Jenred made it quite clear he expected high attendance from Arcaeans, and while there was no explicit punishment for those who didn't, at least one lordship went to someone else because of tournament attendance.
The way I see it: consider it as legit. If some day someone does this in a way that manages to seriously harm another player's harm, we'll likely be able to summon the social contract to give him a warning, and we'll be given a basis upon which to consider changes to the IR. After all these years, it never was a problem. No need to make one of it if one doesn't occur on its own.
I would suggest it is totally fine, expecially if there are RP reasons behind it, such as that wedding.
But then I also think that a noble leaving the realm when they are needed to go off and play in a Tournament is very irresponsible on the nobles point and should be IC punished. To do so otherwise allows OOC to trump IC which i've always considered as bad roleplaying and the sign of a bad roleplayer
Quote from: DamnTaffer on June 04, 2012, 07:54:42 PM
But then I also think that a noble leaving the realm when they are needed to go off and play in a Tournament is very irresponsible on the nobles point and should be IC punished. To do so otherwise allows OOC to trump IC which i've always considered as bad roleplaying and the sign of a bad roleplayer
Too bad. It's an IR. Punish in any way, and you're looking at losing your position and/or getting your account temporarily locked.
Quote from: DamnTaffer on June 04, 2012, 07:54:42 PM
I would suggest it is totally fine, expecially if there are RP reasons behind it, such as that wedding.
But then I also think that a noble leaving the realm when they are needed to go off and play in a Tournament is very irresponsible on the nobles point and should be IC punished. To do so otherwise allows OOC to trump IC which i've always considered as bad roleplaying and the sign of a bad roleplayer
To elaborate a bit, the purpose of the IRs can be found on the wiki:
"These rights are
OOC fun-preserving tools. They are meant to guarantee you, the player, can participate in the game properly."
Note the emphasis on 'OOC'. They are rules that exist outside of the game to protect the rights of players, not characters, and they are deemed important enough by Tom to warrant trumping IG considerations.
Quote from: DamnTaffer on June 04, 2012, 07:54:42 PM
But then I also think that a noble leaving the realm when they are needed to go off and play in a Tournament is very irresponsible on the nobles point and should be IC punished. To do so otherwise allows OOC to trump IC which i've always considered as bad roleplaying and the sign of a bad roleplayer
IC, yes.
But in this case OOC
does trump IC. Because for many players, tournaments are about the only opportunity they ever get to meet players from other realms on a friendly basis.