Hi. I'm a new player (tad over two weeks) and BattleMaster is awesome. However, having a class other than warrior requires honor and prestige. Which, realistically speaking can only be gained through fighting. (There are other means, but given their speed I'm not sure what the point is as a new person) Fighting is awesome, but not always available. So while I adore the game, I can't do what I want to do (Become a priest and a diplomat) without either becoming a courtier and waiting a very long time, or fighting as a warrior. Except, as a knight, if I fall in a realm without a war, it's not very obvious for me how I'm supposed to go about gaining all these stats. The game doesn't tell you from what I've seen what you need for each class, neither does the wiki.
This is a serious problem for me, and is I believe a serious problem if BattleMaster is to grow in population. I've played the game for two weeks, and I have no clue how I'm going to play the game the way I want. I'm not saying destroy the glass ceiling, but maybe it'd be beneficial for new players to be able to play the game their way sooner. Why can't people become priests without gaining prestige and honor? They certainly can't gain any doing priestly things. I'm sure it's to prevent abuse, which is important. However, after two weeks, the only thing keeping me going is my waning interest and the occasional IG letter I get. I'm a pretty patient guy, I wonder how many people get pushed away because they can't play the game their way.
As for "Start a war, silly!" newcomers have no power. They're the furthest from opportunities to start trouble and the ones who most benefit from the H/P that is gained from trouble.
Well, that's my two cents, and thanks for listening/making a fun game.
The H/P limits are in place to allow new players to learn the basics of the game prior to starting the more advanced classes. Sometimes the realm you start in does not offer the combat experience you need to get honor and prestige you need, quick enough. That's why you have multiple character slots to experience more of the game. If you can't get enough H/P in your first realm, pause your character and start somewhere else. Ask the people on IRC (or the forums) where you can get some heavy combat.
Experience, but experience in an unrelated thing? Bit of a non sequitur. Yeah, but having to pause out every time you go to a place that isn't combat filled you need to pause... just seems like a bad "feature" honestly.
Battlemaster is a game that really opens up and has tons of depth as you play it. However the idea is that things open up slowly and gradually a bit at a time. The priest and the diplomat game are not what battlemaster is about, they are add-ons to increase depth of the main game. It is not something you jump into because the game is different and frankly much more boring. This is why those H/P requirements are in place. Discovering new things and more areas of the game is what keeps me playing.
The real issue here is that realms aren't going to war as much as they used to.
Nor H/P is gained as it used to be.
Question: if the limit is to allow players to learn about the game before trying more advanced classes, why not make it about time of play (of the family)? Those who have Kings, Dukes, Cavaliers or any kind of experienced character and make a new one cannot become Traders, Heroes or even Priests with it. Why is that?
H/P is still gained as it used to be, in fact it is gained quicker than it used to be at lower levels. It is only after you reach most of the thresholds required for classes and positions that the rate of gain starts to slow.
Quote from: Eithad on June 15, 2012, 03:39:43 AM
Battlemaster is a game that really opens up and has tons of depth as you play it. However the idea is that things open up slowly and gradually a bit at a time. The priest and the diplomat game are not what battlemaster is about, they are add-ons to increase depth of the main game. It is not something you jump into because the game is different and frankly much more boring. This is why those H/P requirements are in place. Discovering new things and more areas of the game is what keeps me playing.
The real issue here is that realms aren't going to war as much as they used to.
And there is where I politely have to disagree. They are not "add-ons" but separate and important parts. A large part of the game is RP, of which a huge part is religion. The game would still unfold if people could play the class they wanted without forced experience in other classes. What if I want to RP a pacifist priest? He has to slaughter his way to pacifism because of game mechanics if I want to become a priest any time soon? This does not seem like the way to do things. You can discover new things without being forced through a certain set of "unlocks"
"because the game is different and frankly much more boring"
To you, quite likely. To another person, maybe not, and if the game is difference, what bit of (har) difference does it make if I slave away as a warrior only to learn a brand new game?
@colin: there really is nothing unrelated in the game. It all ties together, and interacts. In order to really understand that, you need to learn how all the foundations work. Even experienced players get tripped up. As a diplomat, how are you going to write a treaty, or negotiate a surrender or border agreement if you don't know what options are available? How can you be an effective priest when you don't know how religion works, and interacts with all the other mechanics.
So, yes, it may be a bit of a slow start, but you need to start that way to make sure you know how stuff works.
Its called Wiki Indirik, its the new fad.
@JPierreD: please open a separate thread to discuss the aspect of experienced player.
I've been at it for like eight months, only subclass I've dipped into so far was Hero(ine).
It... ended badly. XD
Red was a Courtier for as long as it took him to change back to Warrior just because I being new thought the realm would get mad if I had to keep asking for gold to refit. What realm, you ask?
Why, the Cagilan Empire. *Puts on dunce cap.*
Quote from: Indirik on June 15, 2012, 04:28:10 AM
@colin: there really is nothing unrelated in the game. It all ties together, and interacts. In order to really understand that, you need to learn how all the foundations work. Even experienced players get tripped up. As a diplomat, how are you going to write a treaty, or negotiate a surrender or border agreement if you don't know what options are available? How can you be an effective priest when you don't know how religion works, and interacts with all the other mechanics.
So, yes, it may be a bit of a slow start, but you need to start that way to make sure you know how stuff works.
You're arguing with a newcomer about what is good and bad for newcomers... Indirik, you lost this argument before it even began. I agree with Colin.
It's not an argument. It's a discussion and explanation.
Rather than Honor and prestige determinant, why not make the switch to priest dependant upon time in realm? Say two weeks. The newbie has had enough time to learn about the basic game, and can switch to the religion game if he or she wants to.
We let people become adventurers right off the bat (granted, for rp reasons, but still), so rather than having Honor and prestige determine worthiness for a class like priest, we could simply run some sort of timer.
And I blame lack of war on removal of TMP. ;D
I agree the restrictions should be more of a timer thing than the H/P experience thing.
As someone who recently introduced a friend to the game who promptly left, I can easily say that these fairly arbitrary ceilings don't do very much. Not just for classes, but for positions and such. It's already hard enough for them to get integrated because of unavoidable social factors, I don't really see why something like this is necessary. Players with any initiative (aka the ones we want) are the ones getting most hurt by these mechanics. If some new player doesn't find themselves satisfied with the war game, maybe they'd like to get into a more in-depth RP/political role as a priest. Who're we to say "no, you have to trudge through an aspect of the game you don't like" or "you have to pause this character in a peaceful but fun realm before you can try anything cool out"?
Quote from: Indirik on June 15, 2012, 05:54:25 AM
It's not an argument. It's a discussion and explanation.
Eh, it's still you explaining why he's wrong. Which makes it more of an argument, really, whether you think of it that way or not. I think he has a point we should consider. After all, he's the actual new player. We've all been here for years and have very likely forgotten what it's really like to be in his shoes. Heck, in some ways we don't even have any basis to know since the game has changed in many ways since we started (for some of us more than others ;))
I really can't see any harm in lifting the restrictions on some classes (or making them time-based if lifting them entirely isn't an option). If someone wants to make a courtier or a priest or a diplomat straight off, what's the harm? To make sure new players know about these classes before they try them out? Well, no offense, but this game teaches you pretty much nothing about the mechanics of classes other than the one you're currently playing (and even then, sometimes not a lot. How many players who've just made their first Hero know they can tell tales or recruit volunteers, given those actions only appear a very small amount of the time?).
I've been playing this game for nearly two years, and another two years the first time round, yet I know pretty much nothing about the mechanics of the diplomat classes or the options available to it, because I've never played one. I knew very little about the options available to priests until recently, until I asked here on the forums. And that's just it. This game teaches you buggar all about stuff like that. You learn from other players. And if someone really, really wants to be a priest, they'll likely ask someone about the details and find out details that way. Having these restrictions just prevents them from doing what they want to do, even after they have some information on the class they want to be.
And, to be honest, telling someone to pause a character in a realm they might really like, but is peaceful, is just not the way to go about increasing player retention.
Quote from: Colin Ealdwine on June 15, 2012, 02:59:16 AM
The game doesn't tell you from what I've seen what you need for each class, neither does the wiki.
I'm not sure if this is still accurate:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Changing_Classes (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Changing_Classes)
Warrior: no requirements, default class
Courtier: Honor needed: 20 Prestige needed: 5
Priest: be a full member of a religion and in a region with a Level 3+ temple of your religion
Advy: no requirements. to become a warrior, 3 recommendations, 5 prestige, ? honor
Cavalier: 50 Honor, 20 Prestige, 61 days in realm.
Mentor: 16 Honour and 6 Prestige required.
Trader: 7 days in realm.
Infiltrator: 50 Honour and 10 Prestige required.
Hero: 15 Honour and 6 Prestige required.
Quote from: egamma on June 15, 2012, 03:33:39 PM
I'm not sure if this is still accurate
It's the "I'm not sure if this is accurate part" that worries me. You have to dig into the old class system to find it, when you're redirected to "Class" instead, for the new system.
Quote from: Colin Ealdwine on June 15, 2012, 09:31:43 PM
It's the "I'm not sure if this is accurate part" that worries me. You have to dig into the old class system to find it, when you're redirected to "Class" instead, for the new system.
Battlemaster has always had maddeningly vague (or non-existent) documentation concerning most of the major mechanics of the game, which I believe is intentional. Information on the wiki is not always up to date, either.
The Helpline board (including the Newbie sub-board) is an excellent place to get answers to your questions should you have any (which I assume you do).
Surprisingly I ask all my questions and get them answered. I know of all the boards, I've seen all the pages people refer to. Problem is, most people probably won't be as resourceful.
Quote from: egamma on June 15, 2012, 03:33:39 PM
Priest: be a full member of a religion and in a region with a Level 3+ temple of your religion
I'm pretty sure there is also an H/P requirement as well.
Quote from: egamma on June 15, 2012, 03:33:39 PM
Cavalier: 50 Honor, 20 Prestige, 61 days in realm.
Felicie has 65 Honor, 26 Prestige (with a +6 prestige unique) and 228 days in the realm.
However it says that "
Cavalier - your low rank would be unbefitting of this class."
Quote from: egamma on June 15, 2012, 03:33:39 PM
Trader: 7 days in realm.
This also has an H/P requirement.
Quote from: JPierreD on June 16, 2012, 07:31:02 AM
I'm pretty sure there is also an H/P requirement as well.
Quote
Well, Colin can tell us for sure, when he finds it out.
Quote from: JPierreD on June 16, 2012, 07:31:02 AM
Felicie has 65 Honor, 26 Prestige (with a +6 prestige unique) and 228 days in the realm.
However it says that "Cavalier - your low rank would be unbefitting of this class."
Perhaps your unique is causing a calculation problem?
Gundelle has 65/28/607 and I just switched her to Cavalier.
Gaston has 52/26/362 also has the ability to switch.
Quote from: JPierreD on June 16, 2012, 07:31:02 AM
This also has an H/P requirement.
Since when? I really don't think so. Colin can verify this one for us as well, although he'll have to check before the priest class switch.
Quote from: JPierreD on June 16, 2012, 07:31:02 AM
I'm pretty sure there is also an H/P requirement as well.
20 honour.
Quote
Felicie has 65 Honor, 26 Prestige (with a +6 prestige unique) and 228 days in the realm.
However it says that "Cavalier - your low rank would be unbefitting of this class."
Yes, and the way this is worded is quite deliberate.
QuoteCavalier - your low rank would be unbefitting of this class.
Quote
This also has an H/P requirement.
This actually has
only an H/P requirement: 5 prestige, 25 honour.
funny thing about rank... it's bugged.
felicie is ranked as noble.. when she's been a knight for ages
Quote from: Anaris on June 16, 2012, 06:04:25 PM
Yes, and the way this is worded is quite deliberate.
Sounds like another thing that isn't properly explained and the player has to try figure out on their own.
Quote from: Bael on June 16, 2012, 10:36:33 PM
Sounds like another thing that isn't properly explained and the player has to try figure out on their own.
It's explained pretty clearly in the message. You just have to be paying attention, and not making unfounded assumptions.
Here, clearly, egamma looked at the message, saw "your <something> is too low", saw that JPierreD's honour and prestige were probably high enough, and jumped to the conclusion that it was a bug, rather than rereading the message and noticing that it refers to something that our characters actually have, that can be high or low.
So...yes, you have to figure it out on your own, but
the information is all there for you. You just have to be willing to read carefully and think before jumping to conclusions.
(Granted, there is still a bug in rank, due to mismatch between the old and new systems. However, the rank displayed is the rank used for calculation, so despite the fact that it's wrong, it still gives you enough information to figure out why he can't change.)
I tend to agree as well. In the case of the Priest, newbies cannot really do that much wrong without influence/background info so why not let them burn their fingers?
@Colin: sorry Fissoa didn't offer the combat you're looking for :) Perhaps it would have been a better option to change realms with Colin instead of creating a new character, though. You could have joined Solaria when we passed through. I was looking forward to having a travel compagnion again, this time with the roles reversed (Skyndarbau once travelled to D'Hara with his mentor when I just started out). I might be in touch with your new character later.
Perhaps, but the amount of time it would take to reach it was long enough I did not feel the desire to do so. It's less combat, and more anything interesting.
Quote from: Bael on June 16, 2012, 10:36:33 PM
Sounds like another thing that isn't properly explained and the player has to try figure out on their own.
I know this one as a player rather than a dev, so feel comfortable explaining that a number of things require you to be an oathed knight, rather than an unaligned noble, before they can happen.
I'm not sure I would have connected the dots between that error message and not holding an oath.
Quote from: Geronus on June 17, 2012, 03:44:19 PM
I'm not sure I would have connected the dots between that error message and not holding an oath.
If you don't have an oath, you are a Noble. If you do have an oath, you are a Knight. The game is quite literally telling you that your rank (Noble) is insufficient for what you are trying to do.
... of course.. there's no such thing as oath (though it's somewhat implied) nowadays.. which makes it a bit more tricky to explain things.
royal = ruler (ex-ruler/relative of some type)
duke = duke (ex-duke)
lord = lord (ex-lord)
knight = has estate and not any of above
noble = not any of above
gov members... eh... no separate ranks for that.. one of above.
rogue = eh......
peasants.. who cares
Quote from: fodder on June 17, 2012, 07:46:52 PM
gov members... eh... no separate ranks for that.. one of above.
Indeed, Felicie is a Noble (due to the ranks not having been updated), even while being Banker.
Quote from: Colin Ealdwine on June 17, 2012, 02:16:24 AM
Perhaps, but the amount of time it would take to reach it was long enough I did not feel the desire to do so. It's less combat, and more anything interesting.
Fair enough :)
Many of the restrictions in the game are the way they are because we have limited resources and while there are vast areas of the game that we would like to improve and rework, we simply can't do it all at once.
Prestige, honour and related subjects have been on the list for a long time.
Quote from: Bedwyr on June 17, 2012, 07:41:51 PM
If you don't have an oath, you are a Noble. If you do have an oath, you are a Knight. The game is quite literally telling you that your rank (Noble) is insufficient for what you are trying to do.
Yes, I understand now that it has been pointed out to me. I'm just saying, I'm not sure that I would have connected those dots by myself (though to be fair, I also didn't have all the information, i.e. I did not know that the character in question was a noble, not a knight). After Anaris' last post I did spend a moment trying to figure out what he was talking about and ended up shrugging it off and walking away. If I'd been the one who originally made the observation/asked the question, his post would have frustrated the hell out of me if I still hadn't been able to figure it out.
Sometimes the obsession with secrecy in this game is a bit off-putting. If a message is supposed to make it plain what a problem is, then make it plain, and for the love of pete just explain what the problem is when someone asks on the forum rather than dancing around it and forcing them to try to figure it out themselves. If it were obvious to them, they wouldn't have had to ask, would they?
I know there are some things the Devs would not be allowed to reveal. But was this really one of them? I mean it's relatively trivial, but yet here Anaris does everything he can to try to explain it without actually explaining anything. Would he really have gotten in trouble if he'd just answered the question in a straight forward way?
Quote from: Geronus on June 18, 2012, 02:45:37 PM
Sometimes the obsession with secrecy in this game is a bit off-putting. If a message is supposed to make it plain what a problem is, then make it plain, and for the love of pete just explain what the problem is when someone asks on the forum rather than dancing around it and forcing them to try to figure it out themselves. If it were obvious to them, they wouldn't have had to ask, would they?
This time it's not about secrecy one bit. It's about keeping the explanation IC. It's about not holding your hand and explaining every little thing to you in minute detail. It's about assuming that the people playing this game have functioning brains, and can tell "your rank is too low" from "you are not reputable enough."
Quote
I know there are some things the Devs would not be allowed to reveal. But was this really one of them? I mean it's relatively trivial, but yet here Anaris does everything he can to try to explain it without actually explaining anything. Would he really have gotten in trouble if he'd just answered the question in a straight forward way?
No, we're certainly allowed to reveal this. Like I said, it's not about secrecy. It's about the devs getting frustrated that the players appear to glance at the message briefly, assume it means something that it doesn't, and then jump to the conclusion that there must be a bug.
If this is the way even players as intelligent and well-versed in the game read invasion clues, then it's no bleeding wonder we've lost most of Beluaterra.
Because seriously,
it says rank, right there in the message. Why would anyone looking at that message and
actually reading what it says think it meant the problem was anything other than
rank??
Well obviously someone did, Anaris. So get off your damn high horse and for one second remember that this thread is for newcomers. If people who have been in the game for a while are having trouble with it, then just imagine how those new are doing. Not to mention that you just called everyone who is having trouble with it stupid, which is just insulting.
Quote from: Geronus on June 18, 2012, 02:45:37 PM
(though to be fair, I also didn't have all the information, i.e. I did not know that the character in question was a noble, not a knight)
To be honest nor did I. Felicie has been signing as Great Chamberlain for some time, then as Dame of Avengmil for a little while and now as High Treasurer. I had no idea she was still considered an unaligned noble.
Quote from: Anaris on June 18, 2012, 03:24:48 PM
Because seriously, it says rank, right there in the message. Why would anyone looking at that message and actually reading what it says think it meant the problem was anything other than rank??
Because of the above mentioned. Also because of the top-down process of expecting the message to refer to H/P, and thus filling in the blanks automatically. It also helps that the message could be interpreted as about not being reputable, if not used to such BM-specific lexicon. I suppose I'll have to get used (in the way Region means something specific, and not a general area).
Quote from: Anaris on June 18, 2012, 03:24:48 PM
This time it's not about secrecy one bit. It's about keeping the explanation IC. It's about not holding your hand and explaining every little thing to you in minute detail. It's about assuming that the people playing this game have functioning brains, and can tell "your rank is too low" from "you are not reputable enough."
No, we're certainly allowed to reveal this. Like I said, it's not about secrecy. It's about the devs getting frustrated that the players appear to glance at the message briefly, assume it means something that it doesn't, and then jump to the conclusion that there must be a bug.
If this is the way even players as intelligent and well-versed in the game read invasion clues, then it's no bleeding wonder we've lost most of Beluaterra.
Because seriously, it says rank, right there in the message. Why would anyone looking at that message and actually reading what it says think it meant the problem was anything other than rank??
Well Tim, I could be as insulting as you're being and say that the problem isn't so much stupid players as it is poor game design, but I have some tact. Also, I am understanding of the fact that there's lots of things you all probably want to do to make the game better and not enough time in which to do them. In fact, I am far more understanding of that fact than most people would be because I work for a software company and we are very much in the same boat. We have about a thousand things we want to do, but we have a lot of problems and only so many programmers to fix them. And we actually pay those guys - you all work on BM for free.
As to the topic at hand, It's obviously not as simple as you think it is, otherwise people wouldn't be asking the question. Evidently not everyone can be as smart as you are, but I don't recall having to get a minimum score on an IQ test when I joined the game. Either way, I'm not sure I enjoy the way you almost, but not quite, called me stupid just now. I'm sorry that you get frustrated. I've seen the kind of 'feedback' you get more often than not. I can understand why you would over time start to get a little jaded. However, I still find that to be a poor excuse for being insulting, and I don't think it's a good rationale for refusing to answer straight-forward questions either. If you don't feel like answering, then don't. Don't instead dance around the answer and make people feel stupid for asking in the first place.
To calm everyone down:
If you have an actual suggestion for better wording for in-game messages, please post it on the bugtracker. Those text changes are fairly easy to do, and if the dev team agrees that the wording is better, will usually be done somewhere inbetween when someone touches the relevant script anyways instead of being pushed to the end of the list.
Quote from: Tom on June 18, 2012, 06:47:49 PM
To calm everyone down:
If you have an actual suggestion for better wording for in-game messages, please post it on the bugtracker. Those text changes are fairly easy to do, and if the dev team agrees that the wording is better, will usually be done somewhere inbetween when someone touches the relevant script anyways instead of being pushed to the end of the list.
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Class (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Class)
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Changing_Classes (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Changing_Classes)
I think everyone would like for the class requirements to be updated on the wiki, with a link from the changing class page to the wiki.
Quote from: egamma on June 18, 2012, 07:56:41 PM
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Class (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Class)
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Changing_Classes (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Changing_Classes)
I think everyone would like for the class requirements to be updated on the wiki, with a link from the changing class page to the wiki.
Not a bad idea.
I will see if I can find some time to get the actual requirements posted on the wiki. Hopefully soon.