| Summary: | Swastika Use |
| Violation: | Preamble |
| World: | Dwilight |
| Complainer: | Lyman Stone (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=10403) |
| About: | Glaumring (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=25986) |
Full Complaint Text:
The relevant violated clause of the Social Contract is:
"People from all over the world are participating in this game and its community. Limited communication and cultural differences require us to agree on a common etiquette and rules of behaviour."
The player of Glaumring has chosen to repeatedly make gratuitous IC and OOC swastika references (and apparently jokes?) despite multiple OOC cautions and requests to stop from other players.
Letter from Glaumring Apasurain (53 minutes ago)
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Oh so now the mad king line is being bandied about by my allies. I appreciate that. I appreciate that my fury is mocked for my love of Terran, for my desire to fight with all my heart for Terran, to send my troops against old friends in Astroism, to fight one of my best friends Lady Allison Kabrinski. I sacrificed it all for Terran, Terran my old home. And this is what us given to Asylon? A snotty plate of spit for being annoyed that Terrans senate so callously turned against us. I consider Magistrate Vellos family. I allied eith D'Hara because of their fear of imminent attack by Kabrinskia. And this is what we get? An insult to your senate and all of everything we have dobe thrown to the dogs... I shall be like the fires of the sun and burn like a ball of terror in the sky, my blade a brandished pillar of pure insanity whirling like a swastika of death in the heavens! Who else wants to see an Asylonian naked and covered in bloodmoon spit flying down a hill at you eyes all rolling in their head with two cats tied by their tails wail ghosts! Waaargh!
Glaumring Apasurain of Asylon
Candidavius of Véinsørmoot and King of Asylon, Duke of Via, Earl of Via
Letter from Glaumring Apasurain (28 minutes ago)
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It is an ancient symbol of good luck for Asylonians. My body is adorned with hundreds of them, it stops arrows, cures cat bites, heals wounds and allows one man to drink huge barrals of wine without rest and each symbol means of how many women I have had and children they birthed. It is a fascinating Asylonian tradition!
Glaumring Apasurain of Asylon
Candidavius of Véinsørmoot and King of Asylon, Duke of Via, Earl of Via
Out-of-Character from Brom Silverfire (26 minutes ago)
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Okay, is that really an acceptable form of discussion for this game? While I understand the historical background behind the symbol in real life, it also has some very bad connotations which I am not sure are acceptable to be brought into the game.
TH
Out-of-Character from Brackern of Burgundy (22 minutes ago)
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If he is making it all up, and it is a once off thing, I reckon it is fine (although liable to get reported for SMA, perhaps). If it is taken further and becomes part of the realm RP, then it deserves definite red card IMO.
Mike H.
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Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain (17 minutes ago)
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Do you have any idea of the ancient history of a swastika? I lived in Asia for 14 years its everywhere there. Its a very very very old symbol. And has very little to do with nazis you can report me if you want because you guys are whiny little babies. Or go educate yourself about it.
William Slyke
Out-of-Character from Shino Uzamaki (16 minutes ago)
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Technically, he is right. But, player of Glaumring, even if it is an ancient symbol, it is now forever tied to the Nazi's and you knew that going in.
Forrest Hughes
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Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain (15 minutes ago)
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
William Slyke
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Out-of-Character from Mathias Ridder (14 minutes ago)
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It is not a matter of what it originally meant, but instead of what it has meant in recent history. It might not be offensive to all, but to those it does offend...
John D.
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Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain (14 minutes ago)
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No its tied to the Navaho and to buddhists. I said its a goodluck symbol, you called it a nazi symbol. You are wrong. And now you are trying to cause ooc problems because you are lazy.
William Slyke
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Out-of-Character from Brackern of Burgundy (13 minutes ago)
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LOL William - I'm not saying that I would report it - just saying that someone might. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go find my dummy...
Mike H.
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Out-of-Character from Terrence (12 minutes ago)
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http://failbook.failblog.org/tag/swastika/
Eoghan Barry
Letter from Glaumring Apasurain (11 minutes ago)
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Well in recent history its vern used for thousands of years on buddhist temples in Taiwan and China. The Naxi's have been gone since 1945 so get over it. Im a Canadian who lived in Asia for a decade. I could care less about its nazi past. I hate nazis.
Glaumring Apasurain of Asylon
Candidavius of Véinsørmoot and King of Asylon, Duke of Via, Earl of Via
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Out-of-Character from Brom Silverfire (9 minutes ago)
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Player of Glaumring,
I explicitly stated that I was aware of the real life history surrounding the symbol. (aka the asian history)
However, regardless of that history, the nazi's immortalized it as a symbol meaning something drastically different then peace. I would ask that you don't involve it in any RP's in the game, because I at least find it offensive and I believe others would as well.
TH
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Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain (7 minutes ago)
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I didnt use it as a nazi swastika though. So why are you offended, my swastika is swirly with dots and its pointing the other way.
William Slyke
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Out-of-Character from Brom Silverfire (just in)
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I'm offended because this is a game that we play for fun, and you've brought into it a symbol which like it or not is representative of some of the worst organizational genocide and destruction of the last 100 years. Anything called a swastika or even described in a similar manner I would believe is unacceptable. Real life religions are barred from the game for obvious reasons, and I believe this should also be barred from the game for similar ones for the same reason that even close takes on real life religions are unacceptable.
I've said all I'll say on the matter. Further OOC can be handled in private.
TH
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Roleplay from Glaumring Apasurain (just in)
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Glaumring stood on the side of a mountain top in Uppervia and drew massive goodluck swastikas with charcoal on the side of the cliff facing his army. The swastikas were massive, swirling into eachother, they could be seen for miles, goodluck flowing from their ancient shapes. Glaumring then did a naked dance in front of the swastikas and a whole bunch of naked women covered in swastikas of blue, red and yellow painted all over their naked bodies danced with him. It was glorious and then Glaumring got drunk on bloodmoon fruit and passed out.
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Out-of-Character from Gregor Dmitros (just in)
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Please remember there are many people who play this game and some are very sensitive. While I have nothing against it's use, some others may, as someone has already pointed out. We all know that it goes beyond the Nazis and we all also know that it is associated with Nazis and their war crimes. It is wonderful that it doesn't offend you and some other people. But, that isn't the issue, it is about how it may offend other individuals playing this game. There is no need to call anyone a name, this is supposed to be a friendly OoC environment.
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Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain (just in)
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It is you guys who brought nazis into it.
William Slyke
I will note my contention here: while the player of Glaumring is correct that the swastika has many benign meanings, and perhaps he intends it that way, numerous players indicated they did not perceive it that way. Given its history as a symbol for the murder of, literally, millions of human beings, that sensitivity is justified (similar with complaints about the Saxon "Freikorps" in Barca). After multiple players indicated they found it offensive, the player of Glaumring made no apology, and indeed heightened his use of the offending symbol, clearly with provocative intent. This is absolutely not playing the game with friends, but rather is, at the mildest, trolling and spam, and, at the worst, anti-Semitism. While I could understand the first use of the symbol, its continuation is unacceptable, and the Magistrates should thus sanction the offender for a clear violation of the social contract and game community.
Further posts:
Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain (7 minutes ago)
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The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. The swastika literally means "to be good".
William Slyke
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Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain (5 minutes ago)
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In Christianity, the swastika is used as a hooked version of the Christian Cross, the symbol of Christ's victory over death. Some Christian churches built in the Romanesque and Gothic eras are decorated with swastikas, carrying over earlier Roman designs
Good luck with your complaint... Really.
William Slyke
Letter from Glaumring Apasurain (just in)
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You cannot beat me in game so resort to OOC whining... So weak.
Glaumring Apasurain of Asylon
Candidavius of Véinsørmoot and King of Asylon, Duke of Via, Earl of Via
In a medieval setting, Glaumring is correct. It was (and still is) used by many cultures as a symbol of good luck. It's been found on ruins in India, Greece, and across the bulk of Europe at the very least.
Nazis typically used a clockwise symbol, most other areas used a counter-clockwise version. The Nazis also used a triskelion version of the swastika at times. Should those be banned as well?
But then again, I'm one who believes that if it isn't cheating, players should grow a thicker skin. It's the internet.
Quote from: Uzamaki on June 30, 2012, 12:57:35 AM
Yes, he implied at worst you were being Anti-Semitic. But he never called you a Nazi.
How was it anti-semetic to use an ancient goodluck symbol? I didnt mention any jewish stuff. You guys did. I didnt even acknowledge the Nazi's I ignored them. I acknowledged the swastikas rich ancient past. You guys turned it into a Nazi debate. You brought it up to cause trouble. You reported me to cause trouble. You fake your offense. You probably play Wolfenstein after this anyways. Or Medal of honor or watch some WWII movie do you cry every time you see a swastika? Do you call the cops when you see one scratched on a bathroom wall?
Quote from: Glaumring on June 30, 2012, 01:02:36 AM
How was it anti-semetic to use an ancient goodluck symbol? I didnt mention any jewish stuff. You guys did. I didnt even acknowledge the Nazi's I ignored them. I acknowledged the swastikas rich ancient past. You guys turned it into a Nazi debate. You brought it up to cause trouble. You reported me to cause trouble. You fake your offense. You probably play Wolfenstein after this anyways. Or Medal of honor or watch some WWII movie do you cry every time you see a swastika? Do you call the cops when you see one scratched on a bathroom wall?
The swastika is anti-semetic because those who have wielded it most recently in the past as their rallying symbol were anti-semetic. I don't know what attitude you think you can have here, but I dare you to walk up to any jew in real life, wave a swastika in their face and tell them you're not anti-semetic. Do you think they will believe you? Do you think they'll believe that you have no bad intentions when you tout a symbol that they are offended by even after they state their offense?
The blatant actions you've taken here in this game would have had you fired from any job that you held within the United States. No warnings involved either. I understand the ancient history of the symbol being one of peace. However, in modern day, that is not the only interpretation of it anymore.
Even disregarding what I would consider obvious knowledge that the symbol is related to hate, I would not be upset if you simply let the issue go once you were informed that some where offended by it. However, you didn't, you threw it my face and the others who agreed that the symbol was not appropriate. You continued with more blatant RP's and disregarded fair requests that you leave offensive issues out of the game. Based upon how this issue would be handled in real life, I would consider yourself lucky if you were not banned from the game for such actions.
The fact of the matter is that you were asked to stop by some people who found it offensive and instead of stopping you made an unnecessary rp and posted to the very channel that was asking you stop. You blatantly disregarded the requests of others and instead sought to insult them.
I am going to be moderating this thread with
extreme prejudice.
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,819.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,819.0.html)
All replies need to follow these rules, or they will be moderated:
- remain strictly on topic. Information relevant to the actual case only. This goes especially for speculations, hypotheticals, variations - discussing of the this could be... if... kind are unwanted. We have a specific case before us and will decide that case, nothing else.
- be positive and friendly. Don't insult or troll.
- add new information. Repeating a point does not increase its truth value.
This means that posting "+1" will get your post deleted. Posting "lol" will get your post deleted. Personal attacks will be deleted.
I wasnt using it as a nazi roleplay though. I was using it in medieval context. Should a jew be offended if he went to Taiwan and saw temples covered in swastikas?
Quote from: Glaumring on June 30, 2012, 12:51:14 AM
Harsh , anti-sematism. You are out of line. I will apologize to the players offended. Sorry, but now you owe me an apology for hinting that I am a Nazi.
If you want to open a case against another player, you are free to do so. Relevant material for that case, should you wish to make it official, is stored here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2705.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2705.0.html)
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on June 30, 2012, 01:34:45 AM
The blatant actions you've taken here in this game would have had you fired from any job that you held within the United States. No warnings involved either. I understand the ancient history of the symbol being one of peace. However, in modern day, that is not the only interpretation of it anymore.
Which would potentially open said job up to a discrimination lawsuit, be it for race/culture/religion. Unless it's a government job, then it could open them up to that AND a violation of the First Amendment lawsuit.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on June 30, 2012, 01:34:45 AMEven disregarding what I would consider obvious knowledge that the symbol is related to hate, I would not be upset if you simply let the issue go once you were informed that some where offended by it. However, you didn't, you threw it my face and the others who agreed that the symbol was not appropriate. You continued with more blatant RP's and disregarded fair requests that you leave offensive issues out of the game. Based upon how this issue would be handled in real life, I would consider yourself lucky if you were not banned from the game for such actions.
In "real life"? In real life, nothing would happen here in the States. People have a right to say whatever they damned well please so long as it doesn't incite violence, crime, etc. Talking about the historical, and CURRENT, use of a symbol wouldn't result in... Well... Anything.
Quote from: Glaumring on June 30, 2012, 01:28:52 AM
So its about favours and not facts? The judges must be neutral if to be truly just and not be clouded by emotion. They must be aware of the law and not merely pander to whoever favours them the most. My attitude has nothing to do with judgement.
Favor, not favor
s. And yes. Personal prejudices tend to color a person's judgement. That does not mean they would not try otherwise, but sometimes human nature leaks in.
More on the subject at hand: Should we have a Palestinian player that takes offense at the Star of David, this entire situation would be like throwing anything that is a star into that category. Would you ban SA from Dwilight because they have "offensive" symbols?
No. They are not the same type of star, even if there was a ban on the Star of David. Just as the swastikas used by Glaumring are NOT the same type of swastika used by the Nazis (that being a right facing rotated swastika).
Personally, I'm more offended by people trying to ban items of long standing historical and cultural value under the false pretense of "being offended".
I don't believe anyone said your role play was a "nazi" one. I believe the main complaint or at least my complaint was that you made the rp out of disrespect for the thoughts and feelings of your fellow players. You were polity asked to stop with the swastikas, and instead of stopping you argued its historical meanings vs recent meanings, but on top of all that you then made a rp with the express purpose of insulting and offending those who asked you stop. These actions just show me that you don't respect the requests of your fellow players.
I apologize to My fellow players but will not apologize for swastikas.
I see where this is going though, because the complaint didnt hold water you will try to nail me for disrespecting players wishes.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on June 30, 2012, 01:59:43 AM
Personally, I'm more offended by people trying to ban items of long standing historical and cultural value under the false pretense of "being offended".
I don't appreciate being called a liar, saying that I'm simply making up my offense as a false pretense.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on June 30, 2012, 01:59:43 AM
Which would potentially open said job up to a discrimination lawsuit, be it for race/culture/religion. Unless it's a government job, then it could open them up to that AND a violation of the First Amendment lawsuit.
In "real life"? In real life, nothing would happen here in the States. People have a right to say whatever they damned well please so long as it doesn't incite violence, crime, etc. Talking about the historical, and CURRENT, use of a symbol wouldn't result in... Well... Anything.
Actually it would not. Hate language is barred from being used and not protected under the first amendment when it is used in a manner that as you said promotes violence or hatred against a specific group. "Hate crimes" are one of the most severely prosecuted things in the states. If you harass a coworker or fellow people in whatever environment you are in, then you are not protected under any "rights" to do so.
When someone is offended by something such as this, which has a reasonable support for being offended, (such as the mass killings of millions of jews and others in which people may have family members who were killed in it, or perhaps survived it, or perhaps they even lived through it) then yes I would say it is reasonable to be offended in this case.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on June 30, 2012, 01:59:43 AM
More on the subject at hand: Should we have a Palestinian player that takes offense at the Star of David, this entire situation would be like throwing anything that is a star into that category. Would you ban SA from Dwilight because they have "offensive" symbols?
No. They are not the same type of star, even if there was a ban on the Star of David. Just as the swastikas used by Glaumring are NOT the same type of swastika used by the Nazis (that being a right facing rotated swastika).
Your argument concerning the Star of David is irrelevant for two reasons: 1. We already bar the use of real life religions in the game, because it provokes discord and conflict. 2. The Star of David does not provoke nearly the same image to Palestinian players as the swastika would for jewish players. Palestine and Israel while having been at war for essentially ever, are in almost constant peace talks. Jews however would not seek peace with Nazis after what they did.
Overall though, the ban on real life religions is important because it separates what is felt in real life and what can be RP'ed in the game. I believe this same rule should be applied for an image which has very very recent hatred connotations such as the swastika. Beyond that even, provoking your fellow players and taunting them with offensive images after being asked to stop is just wrong. At the very least, try and discuss it with them in private first, before simply being aggressive with such brutish action.
That is something I do not think this game should tolerate, and it should not be dealt with lightly.
The swastika is not an offensive image though in the context I used. You made it offensive by changing the context.
Is the Beatles song 'Helter Skelter' evil because Manson used it in a murder?
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Help:Religion (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Help:Religion)
Quote
A word on real-life religions: Please do keep real-life religions out of this game. Religion is a sensitive topic for many people and the best way to deal with this in games is to steer clear of it. Use ideas and concepts from real-life religions, but do change the names so they are neither identical to nor closely resemble names of religions, gods or prophets of any real-life religion.
I realize this is on a help page, not the social contract, but I think it's applicable, and should perhaps be put somewhere more prominent.
Quote from: Glaumring on June 30, 2012, 02:15:33 AM
The swastika is not an offensive image though in the context I used. You made it offensive by changing the context.
It is my belief that the swastika is an offensive image regardless of the context and that I am not alone in this thought.
When used on temples in their native lands that is the sole exception where it is traditional. However, this is a game of multi-cultural players. The symbol retains its better connotation ONLY in limited parts of the world, while a vast majority of the world views it with negative connotation. Any such symbol with such vast hate surrounding it should not be used in the game, and especially not when you've been asked to not involve it within the game by your fellow players.
There is no real OOC reason I can think of to include it within the game except to make your fellow players upset. There are plenty of other symbols available to you that mean peace without the hate connotation. Thus, I can see zero reason to include it in any RP, and believe it is 100% unacceptable to continue to RP as such simply out of spite after asked to refrain from it.
I must step in here.
Please abstain from using symbols used by the Nazis within the game. There's a simple reason for that: I and the game servers are located in Germany. Use of these symbols is illegal here unless it is for historical or educational purposes. I don't really think anyone would sue an online game, but I have more important things to do with my life than worry about that.
So aside from all the other arguments, not endangering the game itself would be pretty nice.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on June 30, 2012, 02:21:42 AM
There is no real OOC reason I can think of to include it within the game except to make your fellow players upset.
Based on the player of Glaumring's response, and his RP where he revelled in the swastika usage, I believe that was precisely his goal.
I will respect Tom. But, I want to say that you other guys are in my parting comments. You disrespect thousands of years of culture from the Chinese to Navaho. You disrespect the word swastika an ancient Indian word meaning The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.
Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.
Im done arguing this here. I will respect Toms view but I know the rest of you are wrong wrong wrong.
Egamma edit: removed profanity. Ad hominem attacks do not help your case.
The point is that the player of Glaumring wrote the RP after being informed that several players were finding it offensive. He wrote the RP clearly out of spite towards them. There was literally no other goal or point to that RP, and the audience it was sent to, than to rub "as many swastikas" as possible into the faces of those people who had objected to its use and found it offensive.
In over 4 years of playing Battlemaster I have never seen such a blatant display of malice from one player to another. It was disgusting.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on June 30, 2012, 12:53:23 AMIn a medieval setting, Glaumring is correct.
We're we all medieval nobles, that may be significant. The thing is, we're not.
We are modern-day people. Our characters are not offended. But this isn't about the characters, is it? Because if the characters were offended/threatened by the use of a symbol, we wouldn't care one bit. In fact, I'd say that's good RP.
The fact of the matter is, this case isn't about the conduct of medieval nobles. It's about the conduct of modern-day game players. And we don't judge the conduct of
players by medieval standards. Which is why the medieval context of this particular symbol is completely irrelevant. It is a potent symbol of hatred and genocide to every modern human. And we judge players by modern standards.
It is a symbol of hatred for you. Not all people. Some of us have moved past that and respect irs history without a Nazi context. Can you not understand that? Is it too complex a concept?
Quote from: Glaumring on June 30, 2012, 03:00:46 AM
What roleplaying drawing an ancient symbol on rocks and dancing naked was so hard for you? How old are you?
You could have chosen other symbols. Why pick a sensitive one?
I think its beautiful.
Quote from: Glaumring on June 30, 2012, 03:00:46 AM
What roleplaying drawing an ancient symbol on rocks and dancing naked was so hard for you? How old are you?
Are you seriously trying to say you didn't write that RP merely to spite the people who were asking you to stop?
You're such a nimrod. I know people who had family members executed in concentration camps.
Egamma edit: removed profanity. Come on, stay above his level.
Quote from: Tom on June 30, 2012, 02:28:36 AM
I must step in here.
Please abstain from using symbols used by the Nazis within the game. There's a simple reason for that: I and the game servers are located in Germany. Use of these symbols is illegal here unless it is for historical or educational purposes. I don't really think anyone would sue an online game, but I have more important things to do with my life than worry about that.
So aside from all the other arguments, not endangering the game itself would be pretty nice.
Tom, as a question on legality, is the fylfot legal in Germany?
Quote from: Glaumring on June 30, 2012, 03:07:11 AM
I think its beautiful.
And other people do not. You are playing with other people, you do not get to do whatever you like.
I will try to put warnings on RP around sensitive topics so people can choose to read or not read as they wish.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on June 30, 2012, 03:33:26 AM
Tom, as a question on legality, is the fylfot legal in Germany?
The law in question illegalised symbols that look like Swastika, which likely includes an ancient saxon symbol that its unlikely people would try to legalise as was done with the Falun symbol.
Quote from: Indirik on June 30, 2012, 03:24:28 AM
You're such a nimrod. I know people who had family members executed in concentration camps.
Egamma edit: removed profanity. Come on, stay above his level.
I also have freinds whom had family members killed in camps, I have freinsd whom have had family members killed in the german occupation of austria. I even have a freind whom lost family in the Nanking massacre. Yet I don't balk everytime I see a swatstika used or see the japanese flag.
Let's be adults here, the swastika may be much older than the Nazi party, but since then it has been irreparably corrupted by them. 90% of the world will immediately associate swastikas with Nazi Germany. It's the same reason hardly anyone would call their child Adolf anymore. Glaumring, your incessant attempts to defend yourself only make me more certain you're just doing it to get a reaction out of people. Nobody in their right mind would parade such sensitive symbols in front of an unknown crowd. I'm more than a little embarrased in your place, to be honest.
Do guns kill people? Or do people kill people?
A symbols meaning only has as much meaning as you choose to give it.
Well then, head to a predominantly black neighborhood dressed in a white sheet with eye holes and a pointy hat, light a big wooden cross on fire and see if the paramedics are still able to save you. A raised middle finger isn't an insult everywhere, but you don't go off flipping people off randomly in the streets, I should hope. Even though you said you'd respect Tom, you STILL aren't able or willing to drop this issue and accept that freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to get a rise out of people, which is clearly your main intent.
People choose to give the swastika a powerful meaning. Most of the civilized world has accepted that it's a hateful symbol and shouldn't be used lightly. But you, you don't care, you have to have it your way and to hell with what everyone thinks.
Quote from: Glaumring on June 30, 2012, 04:05:34 AM
Do guns kill people? Or do people kill people?
A symbols meaning only has as much meaning as you choose to give it.
You are right in that the meaning of a symbol is subjective, which means if people find it offensive, then it IS offensive to them, you can not tell them otherwise.
We all know the historical meaning behind it, no one is challenging that, this is not the issue I see here.
Quote from: Glaumring on June 30, 2012, 04:18:23 AM
So Asia isnt the civilized world? Because when I lived in Taiwan for 14 years the Swastika was everywhere. Are Asians not civilized? Or are they savages. Answer the question. Are native American indians not civilized?
Because your view is extremely euro-centric, white euro-centric. Do you tend not to take in other civilizations when you hate things? Do you tend to ignore people of colour when you consider world history and things? Because if you do it means you are a bit racist.
Because honestly I dont give two !@#$s about the nazis... You do.
Of course I do. They shot my great-grandfather and a whole bunch of his friends, leveled most of my country and did a number of horrific things to their enemies and even their own people. Nobody is arguing with you that the swastika has other meanings. But either you're just deliberately being a prick, or you have absolutely no clue just what it is you're doing here.
Egamma edit: although I agree, I'm removing personal attacks.
Im done, im sorry I offended people with a symbol if so much controversy. I wont argue this anymore. Sorry.
This is a European medieval SMA setting continent. As I said in-game, I do not believe that RL symbols have a place in BM (hence the rule about avoiding to mimic RL religions), much less on a SMA setting and much less an Asian RL symbol.
I don't think any images were uploaded, so I don't think you have to concern yourself with text descriptions Tom, but unless someone wants to bring in this symbol on other continents, I don't think we even need to judge if the symbol itself is acceptable in BM or not, because this happened on Dwilight and I believes it goes against the SMA rules.
@DamnTaffer: for my part, it's not the use of the symbol that bothers me. I can see how some could use something like this once without fully understanding the impact it could have. But when multiple tell you that they don't appreciate it and asked you to not do it anymore, a good player doesn't tell them to grow up, "get over it", and then proceed to shove it in their faces multiple times.
For me, it's the complete lack of respect for other players, the deliberately derogatory comments, flippant disrespectful remarks, and completely anti-social assholish behavior.
I honestly forgot how controversial the symbol is. Can we drop this now?
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on June 30, 2012, 02:21:42 AM
The symbol retains its better connotation ONLY in limited parts of the world, while a vast majority of the world views it with negative connotation. Any such symbol with such vast hate surrounding it should not be used in the game, and especially not when you've been asked to not involve it within the game by your fellow players.
Eh? In my country, you can find it on nearly every doorstep, commercial institution, school... You get the picture. And the countries nearby as well. Last I checked, we weren't a limited part of the world.
At any rate, I respect the fact that Tom has laws to follow, and I agree Glaumring shouldn't have used it again and again after people took offence.
However, I do find such laws rather obsolete. One doesn't end hate by banning its perceived symbols.
Quote from: Lefanis on June 30, 2012, 05:17:02 AM
Eh? In my country, you can find it on nearly every doorstep, commercial institution, school... You get the picture. And the countries nearby as well. Last I checked, we weren't a limited part of the world.
At any rate, I respect the fact that Tom has laws to follow, and I agree Glaumring shouldn't have used it again and again after people took offence.
However, I do find such laws rather obsolete. One doesn't end hate by banning its perceived symbols.
Exactly, I just spent 14 years in Asia in a country where swastikas are everywhere. I forgot that people elsewhere perceive it differently. I am more into cultural liberation of the symbol than hiding from it. But anyways.
Quote from: Lefanis on June 30, 2012, 05:17:02 AM
Eh? In my country, you can find it on nearly every doorstep, commercial institution, school... You get the picture. And the countries nearby as well. Last I checked, we weren't a limited part of the world.
I don't mean to be ethnocentric, but yea, I believe most of us would call it a limited part of the world. Despite how populous said countries are.
Quote from: Chénier on June 30, 2012, 05:36:58 AM
I don't mean to be ethnocentric, but yea, I believe most of us would call it a limited part of the world. Despite how populous said countries are.
I would also have to agree with this. If something was focused purely in the United States or purely in North America then I would also say its a limited part of the world.
Quote from: Chénier on June 30, 2012, 05:36:58 AM
I don't mean to be ethnocentric, but yea, I believe most of us would call it a limited part of the world. Despite how populous said countries are.
I spent 21-35 in Asia. That limited part of the world is where I grew up. Im a white Canadian.
Limited part of the world is regarding the geographical and cultural aspects. Just because one part of the world doesn't find something offensive doesn't mean that another won't. So in a way, it is you who is being close-minded, only seeing things from your perspective without giving a thought to others.
Rolls both ways. Are you guys trying to make a crucificion of me? I mentioned Swastikas a few times get over it. Really its boring. Super boring.
I apologized, what else do you want me to do? I have been playing here for years. Do we need to keep attacking me because of a mention of swastikas. You act like im a neo-Nazi. Like really grow up, get over it. I am sorry.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on June 30, 2012, 03:33:26 AM
Tom, as a question on legality, is the fylfot legal in Germany?
Here's a (german) webpage detailing the legal situation:
http://www.ida-nrw.de/rechtsextremismus/hintergrundwissen/symbolik/verbotene-kennzeichen-/
it's not trivial. Some symbols are illegal, some are illegal in specific contexts. Basically, I don't want to bother and don't want to be in a situation where I have to retain a lawyer to advise me.
This is supposed to be a friendly game. (Ha.) There is a time and a place to get angry. I do not believe BattleMaster is one of them.
Having said that, really?! You guys are offended that someone used the word "swastika" in a RP? Really?! Am I missing something here? Help me understand.
Quote from: GoldPanda on June 30, 2012, 09:26:44 AM
This is supposed to be a friendly game. (Ha.) There is a time and a place to get angry. I do not believe BattleMaster is one of them.
Having said that, really?! You guys are offended that someone used the word "swastika" in a RP? Really?! Am I missing something here? Help me understand.
Its because I pissed people off in game.. Its so boring.
Quote from: Tom on June 30, 2012, 09:14:39 AM
Here's a (german) webpage detailing the legal situation:
http://www.ida-nrw.de/rechtsextremismus/hintergrundwissen/symbolik/verbotene-kennzeichen-/
it's not trivial. Some symbols are illegal, some are illegal in specific contexts. Basically, I don't want to bother and don't want to be in a situation where I have to retain a lawyer to advise me.
Legally, are you only in trouble for the symbol itself appearing or... As in this case... Someone saying the
word?
And yes, GoldPanda. People are upset over someone using the word swastika in a RP.
Hilarious.. There isnt any law regarding saying Swastika. Germany is a free country not a dictatorship.
Tom , please stop me. Please. I'm out of control now.
Egamma edit: Removed ad hominem attacks and made second sentence more hilarious (and accurate)
Thread locked for now until a verdict is reached. Should there be anything new and not inflammatory to add, PM any Magistrate to reopen.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on June 30, 2012, 09:42:06 AM
Legally, are you only in trouble for the symbol itself appearing or... As in this case... Someone saying the word?
I don't feel like paying a lawyer to find out.
Quote from: Glaumring on June 30, 2012, 10:17:53 AM
Hilarious.. There isnt any law regarding saying Swastika. Germany is a free country not a dictatorship.
§ 86a StGB - StGB is the "Strafgesetzbuch", the criminal code of Germany.
A Guilty Verdict with a 3-day account lock has been reached. We find the player of Glaumring in violation of the Social Contract, specifically, breach of common etiquette and rules of behavior. We agree that the player in question had chosen to repeatedly cause distress to other players even after it was pointed out that some of his actions were offensive to other players and after being asked to stop, he not only continued, but intensified said activities. That is not how one would play a game with friends.
We have taken his contrite apology into consideration and hope that in future, players will remember that people from all over the world are participating in this game and its community and adherence to the Social Contract will make a pleasant game for everyone.
Please take questions to Q/A. Topic locked.