Title:
Message History Dump File
Summary:
An option to save your entire message history to a plain text file on your hard drive.
Details:
A button within the messages menu that allows you to save a text file to your hard drive that contains the complete message history for that character.
What would need to be added would be a button (or link) to activate the download option and the code that would take the message history and turn it into an output text file.
Alternative variations could include an extra option to download the message history of all your characters rather than having to do each one individually. Or a tick box that would send an email at set intervals with the message history for that time period.
Benefits:
Many times messages are lost to the ether simply because we didn't save them somewhere once they were done. With a lot of them that doesn't really matter but sometimes there will be really good RPs or important treaties and then, a month later when you want to refer to those you realise that they've been lost forever because a cut and paste and save wasn't done. This feature would make it a lot easier to ensure all these messages are archived in some form or another.
Possible Exploits:
People could create false message and claim them as real because they're from this archive (but false message can and are made anyway so this would be no different).
People might share the files as a lazy way of spying.
Some malicious code could get added into the download option causing issues on the computer you download to (I know we're really secure, but it is a potential...)
I see one possible "exploit" (maybe we should rename this into "downsides"):
Often times, it is intentional and good for the game that messages have a limited lifetime. This creates conflict through differing memories. Easy facts remove that source of conflict.
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 11:42:57 PM
I see one possible "exploit" (maybe we should rename this into "downsides"):
Often times, it is intentional and good for the game that messages have a limited lifetime. This creates conflict through differing memories. Easy facts remove that source of conflict.
Some people already save messages. Some even have set up scripts to do so easily.
That gives them something of an advantage in this area over people who don't have that kind of expertise or patience.
If everyone had access to a feature that would dump their message history, that would help a lot in leveling that playing field.
That's only some people though. I know I've thought of saving letters but in the end it's too much work and I just can't be bothered. Besides, I think that Tom has a point. Imagine if we could all just look up what was said or done a year ago... there'd be a lot less interpretations of certain agreements or actions. People would be able to twist events of years ago less into their favour and less conflict would ensue.
I honestly like that there's a sort of collective, unwritten memory, but with holes in it. :)
Quote from: Lorgan on August 29, 2012, 12:51:45 AM
That's only some people though. I know I've thought of saving letters but in the end it's too much work and I just can't be bothered. Besides, I think that Tom has a point. Imagine if we could all just look up what was said or done a year ago... there'd be a lot less interpretations of certain agreements or actions. People would be able to twist events of years ago less into their favour and less conflict would ensue.
I honestly like that there's a sort of collective, unwritten memory, but with holes in it. :)
Well, you'd still have to manually go and ask for a dump. It's not like this would make message histories automatically permanent.
Quote from: Anaris on August 29, 2012, 12:58:43 AM
Well, you'd still have to manually go and ask for a dump. It's not like this would make message histories automatically permanent.
I tried to make a script to make a automatic archive once. Since the message pages don't record any form of message ID I gave up trying to make the system quickly and efficiently determine which messages where new and which had already been archived. Settled on a script that just adds a little save button to messages, problem is I never got around to developing a way to disable the button for messages that were already saved. I tend to only use the scripts for RP's, I've always been sad when great RP's just disappear.
Quote from: Lorgan on August 29, 2012, 12:51:45 AM
That's only some people though. I know I've thought of saving letters but in the end it's too much work and I just can't be bothered. Besides, I think that Tom has a point. Imagine if we could all just look up what was said or done a year ago... there'd be a lot less interpretations of certain agreements or actions. People would be able to twist events of years ago less into their favour and less conflict would ensue.
I honestly like that there's a sort of collective, unwritten memory, but with holes in it. :)
That's called written history. The trick is authenticating it - you can just say it's fake.
As long as the messages aren't saved in game then it's no different then someone manually copying and pasting now.
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 11:42:57 PM
Often times, it is intentional and good for the game that messages have a limited lifetime. This creates conflict through differing memories. Easy facts remove that source of conflict.
I am firmly against this proposal for this simple reason above.
I support the idea as a way to level the playing field between those who already do save the info, and those who don't.
Also, this may even help generate more conflict by helping people th remember stuff they would otherwise have forgotten.
Quote from: Indirik on August 29, 2012, 02:48:36 AM
I support the idea as a way to level the playing field between those who already do save the info, and those who don't.
Also, this may even help generate more conflict by helping people th remember stuff they would otherwise have forgotten.
Its true that there is some conflict done because of the letters being lost, but I agree with Indirik that there is also conflict that would have been done but the messages were lost to create them. In a trial that was recently done but postponed so long that the messages were lost there was little evidence to be able to convict the person.
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 11:42:57 PM
I see one possible "exploit" (maybe we should rename this into "downsides"):
Often times, it is intentional and good for the game that messages have a limited lifetime. This creates conflict through differing memories. Easy facts remove that source of conflict.
Conflict has been generated by forging the message. I seem to recall seeing Zuma conflict happened through message forging by an adventurer. There is no easy facts to prove that incident as far as I remember 8)
This message history dump files is helpful to those who do not frequently save the messages. It can help those who already save the messages. Sometime I would like to look back for my RolePlay messages sent out to the realm, and this will come in handy :D
Quote from: Ketchum on August 29, 2012, 02:59:36 AM
I seem to recall seeing Zuma conflict happened through message forging by an adventurer.
What sort of evil bastard would commit such a heinous act?!
Anyway, I support this idea. I save messages myself when I remember, but I often don't.
So one thing we can already add is that it needs to be in a form that allows easy forgery, i.e. no message IDs, etc.
What format? Text? HTML? XML?
Note that this does. Not mean a general yes or no. Just checking if there are more issues if we think about it in more detail.
My initial idea had been for either plain text or HTML. Ideally in a user friendly output appearance that does include a date/time stamp so they can be searches quite easily.
Export in the same format (HTML) that you view the messages in now, just with the button line (reply, etc) stripped off.
Personal messages can be easily forged still regardless of what format we export. It's public messages that become difficult to forge, once everyone has their own "reliable" copy of their message logs. :)
So we must make it into a feature that isn't free - it should take hours and/or gold or something else to get the message log, just so not everyone exports everything all the time.
I dunno about imposing IC penalties for what is, in most respects, an OOC feature.
How about just making it slow? Not only would that make people think twice before trying to do it all the time, if we do it right, it could reduce the load on the server that it creates.
Hello!
In history only important event, or comments with great relevance were keep into books. Like battles, memorable speech, conquest and destruction which only the victor should only write.
There were cases where the other side, had their own version, but were mostly a rejected source. If you take history into account the books only had important things, but not all cultures decided to save things on books.
So with my TL;DR i am trying to say is, that we should leave those who want to save the messages they want, by themselves or in the books (WIKI (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Main_Page))
Books didn't saved whatever people said, but just important event, so if we are to having the save (something) feature, it should be for important things, because it how always is.
The Wiki is the place to save important things of each realm's history, because if your realm is destroyed, it doesn't matter how many years of messages you have stored, it will be USELESS. Unless you want to discuss at some point who was the lord of X region of X realm on X time.
peace!
If you make the "official" feature too onerous to use, then people will do what they always done in the past: view all message from the past 30 days, then File > Save. And all you've done is spend a lot of time to implement a feature no one uses.
Quote from: Indirik on August 29, 2012, 05:08:08 PM
view all message from the past 30 days, then File > Save.
Son of a bitch...I've been copy/pasting everything. Do you know how long it takes even a decent computer to paste 150,000 words? A long frigging time. And I could have just been doing File > Save Page As the whole damn time.
It takes a few seconds of File > Save. 8)
Quote from: Sonya on August 29, 2012, 04:52:10 PM
Hello!
In history only important event, or comments with great relevance were keep into books. Like battles, memorable speech, conquest and destruction which only the victor should only write.
There were cases where the other side, had their own version, but were mostly a rejected source. If you take history into account the books only had important things, but not all cultures decided to save things on books.
So with my TL;DR i am trying to say is, that we should leave those who want to save the messages they want, by themselves or in the books (WIKI (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Main_Page))
Books didn't saved whatever people said, but just important event, so if we are to having the save (something) feature, it should be for important things, because it how always is.
The Wiki is the place to save important things of each realm's history, because if your realm is destroyed, it doesn't matter how many years of messages you have stored, it will be USELESS. Unless you want to discuss at some point who was the lord of X region of X realm on X time.
peace!
Published books maybe. This feature is more of a correspondence journal. That is why Historians LOVE finding such sources of information, since they contain the day to day stuff that helps better understand the realities of a time period.
Quote from: Tom on August 29, 2012, 08:23:45 AM
So one thing we can already add is that it needs to be in a form that allows easy forgery, i.e. no message IDs, etc.
What format? Text? HTML? XML?
Note that this does. Not mean a general yes or no. Just checking if there are more issues if we think about it in more detail.
Tom, you are the most flexible person I ever known. Thank you for your change-in-opinion :)
I think text format will do fine. As long as the format can bring convenience to everyone who all are using the same thing~~
Quote from: Ketchum on August 30, 2012, 02:06:35 AM
Tom, you are the most flexible person I ever known. Thank you for your change-in-opinion :)
I think text format will do fine. As long as the format can bring convenience to everyone who all are using the same thing~~
You need to read this bit
Quote from: Tom on August 29, 2012, 08:23:45 AM
Note that this does. Not mean a general yes or no. Just checking if there are more issues if we think about it in more detail.
Don't go assuming that the feature is accepted.
How many people here currently save messages?
Title: Export messages to CSV format
Summary: I would like there to be ability to export received and sent letters to CSV format for preservation and processing.
Details: The CSV should have fields: id, type, Title, Timestamp (time when sent), sender, audience ( for example: groupname(number of people in that group), if hand selected few nobles, then names should be mentioned), message body, signature.
Benefits: For example: I am running a competition where nobles who support the TO of a region the most turns will get awarded lordship of said region. Would be easier to calculate the points. (nobles send reports to realm if they want to compete). ALSO its easier and more correct way to archive and sort messages for the means of history.
Possible Exploits: Nobles would have extremely good memory if the players would save history... I assume it would be coded so that it would be impossible to get other peoples messages by manipulation.
CSV, for messages? :o
Yeah, CSV might be a bit awkward.
However, a plain text dump option would be very nice.
Quote from: Indirik on November 10, 2012, 08:56:09 PM
Yeah, CSV might be a bit awkward.
However, a plain text dump option would be very nice.
Why awkward? It could be seperated by ' and all ' in the text changed to ". Ofcourse fields would be seperated by ; too.
I think that CSV will make it easier to manipulate the data... I would actually prefer SQL, but thats probably not good for other people... But wait, what about xml? Should be the best? Only thing is that not good to process in excel. But I would prefer xml over text...
If we ever do implement a message export feature (which we may; we've talked about it a number of times), a database-like format will almost certainly not be the first thing we go for. A much higher percentage of our players will likely want human-readable output rather than machine-processable.
That's not to say that this will never happen, but it's definitely a lower priority than an HTML or rich-text message export.
Quote from: Anaris on November 10, 2012, 09:46:57 PM
If we ever do implement a message export feature (which we may; we've talked about it a number of times), a database-like format will almost certainly not be the first thing we go for. A much higher percentage of our players will likely want human-readable output rather than machine-processable.
That's not to say that this will never happen, but it's definitely a lower priority than an HTML or rich-text message export.
HTML with properly tagged classes are fine too! So its easier to use JS to get content... It would be really great if there is timestamp not current "days ago".
I would be against real timestamps. That is information that is not available in-game. Putting it in the data dump would therefore make it available only to people capable of parsing/using the data dump.
(merged with previous thread on same topic)