Everyone's favourite season is coming up again! Any plans for the several weeks of lull? I know I'm going to horde some food in my region. I expect wars will slow, players will bicker furiously in Luria, and several key regions outside of Solaria will starve.
Thoughts?
I don't understand the lull. Isn't this the perfect time to really hurt your enemies?
In Terran we are stockpiling cookies and hot cocoa to make it through.
Quote from: Tom on September 11, 2012, 11:17:52 AM
I don't understand the lull. Isn't this the perfect time to really hurt your enemies?
It might be, if you could actually reach them before your pay ran out ;D
Quote from: Anaris on September 11, 2012, 01:02:43 PM
It might be, if you could actually reach them before your pay ran out ;D
Kill your neighbors, then. :-)
Quote from: Tom on September 11, 2012, 01:36:48 PM
Kill your neighbors, then. :-)
Part of the issue is that the travel time are lenghtened during winter time. Realms that are your neighbors during summer become distant faraway lands during winter. Conversely, any realm that could be considered a neighbor during winter would be uncomfortably close during summer; therefore most likely you have already dealt with it, either by subduing it or by signing a strong alliance.
The winters in BM are long, but not long enough that anyone would change their general foreign policy based on them.
Quote from: Tom on September 11, 2012, 11:17:52 AM
I don't understand the lull. Isn't this the perfect time to really hurt your enemies?
Not if you have food problems of your own. By the time your army gets back, half your realm might be gone... The best way to use winter to hurt your enemies is to burn all their food in the summer/fall, then watch them implode during the winter while you keep your own regions in line.
Quote from: Geronus on September 11, 2012, 05:24:07 PM
Not if you have food problems of your own. By the time your army gets back, half your realm might be gone... The best way to use winter to hurt your enemies is to burn all their food in the summer/fall, then watch them implode during the winter while you keep your own regions in line.
This is exactly correct.
Torch and burn all through the Autumn, while shielding your own supplies.
Quote from: Tom on September 11, 2012, 11:17:52 AM
I don't understand the lull. Isn't this the perfect time to really hurt your enemies?
On one hand, I can see how it might be ideal to march abroad during winter but at the same time, with the new provisions requirement, field stays have shortened considerably. I was used to staying in the field for a month at a time, now I'm lucky to get a week or two.
At the same time, I'll use RL logic regarding winter: who wants to march in snow, or fight in the freezing wind? Winter wars make people absolutely miserable on each side. Invasions of western Russia by any number of militaries springs to mind...
Quote from: Woelfy on September 11, 2012, 07:22:12 PM
On one hand, I can see how it might be ideal to march abroad during winter but at the same time, with the new provisions requirement, field stays have shortened considerably. I was used to staying in the field for a month at a time, now I'm lucky to get a week or two.
My experience is that now you can stay longer . . . you only need provisions in circumstances where you would in the past have simply starved, so provisions can only help, not hurt. Also as part of the same code, starvation sets in gradually now, giving you a bit of a buffer . . . and a way to game things if you move quickly between regions that are starving and aren't, since it seems to just get reset if you spend a single day not starving.
Quote from: Woelfy on September 11, 2012, 07:22:12 PMAt the same time, I'll use RL logic regarding winter: who wants to march in snow, or fight in the freezing wind? Winter wars make people absolutely miserable on each side. Invasions of western Russia by any number of militaries springs to mind...
This is certainly true -- winter has historically caused lulls in fighting, so it's somewhat expected that it would in BM as well.
Send large, cheap units into your enemies lands, so that they eat the food; when provisions start being used, move to another region. Like a swarm of locusts!
In Asylion reclaiming lands is so rediculasly slow. Lands that were lost to starvation keep revolting over and over again. Status is horible. Sympathy takeovers are not keeping the regions under control.
Any damage you can do to food stocks is both easier and more effective in autumn than in winter.
Quote from: mikm on September 11, 2012, 10:00:05 PM
In Asylion reclaiming lands is so rediculasly slow. Lands that were lost to starvation keep revolting over and over again. Status is horible. Sympathy takeovers are not keeping the regions under control.
If the regions keep revolting repeatedly, then you're not taking enough time to stabilize them. It's not easy, but you should be able to hold onto them after no more than two TOs. Sometimes you'll lose it the first time no matter what because of horrible starvation, but as long as you got food to it before it went, you can then come back and retake it after the starvation goes away and have a much better chance of holding onto it.
Mind you, you still need to have sufficient police units and priest/courtier/diplomats working on the place to bring the stats up, but it can be done.
What, nobody? Seriously, no-one?
Cmon guys... no? Nobody is gonna say it?
Ok then, guess i'll do it myself.
...Winter is co.... *gets taken out by a random lightning bolt*
Quote from: Chénier on September 11, 2012, 10:06:57 PM
Any damage you can do to food stocks is both easier and more effective in autumn than in winter.
Well, to food supply, yes. To existing stocks, it's about as easy any time, and probably most damaging in the winter (since that's when they're most needed).
Quote from: BardicNerd on September 12, 2012, 01:00:21 AM
Well, to food supply, yes. To existing stocks, it's about as easy any time, and probably most damaging in the winter (since that's when they're most needed).
Experience suggests that if you loot for x hours with y men, you will burn more food if the warehouses have 5000 bushels than if they have 200. Therefore, to maximize food burnt ratio by men by hours spent, it is preferable to attack them when the warehouses are the most filled.
Also, if you can loot enough to provoke starvation, then doing so earlier can extend the starvation period as well.
My observations may have been misleading, however.
Quote from: Chénier on September 12, 2012, 01:04:57 AM
Experience suggests that if you loot for x hours with y men, you will burn more food if the warehouses have 5000 bushels than if they have 200. Therefore, to maximize food burnt ratio by men by hours spent, it is preferable to attack them when the warehouses are the most filled.
Also, if you can loot enough to provoke starvation, then doing so earlier can extend the starvation period as well.
My observations may have been misleading, however.
Actually, on average, the warehouses are most filled during winter. For most realms, of course, the absolute most food in the warehouses would (generally) be either the last day of autumn or the first day of winter (depending on how the game calculates things). However, barring changes in food supply other than seasonal changes (obviously never the case), amount of food in the warehouses at the start of autumn is:
S
and at the end is:
S + 2H - C
where S equals initial stores, H equals normal daily harvest, and C equals daily consumption. In winter it is at the beginning:
S + 2H - C
and at the end:
S + 9/4H - 2C
There are more elegant formulas to find the average at any time, but I forget enough statistics that I'll leave that for another time or someone else. But basically, for realms that have more or less equal production and consumption (or higher production than consumption), you end winter with more food than you began autumn.
In short: storehouses are most filled at the end of autumn and beginning of winter with a slight skew towards winter because they don't empty as fast as they fill.
Quote from: BardicNerd on September 12, 2012, 05:17:40 AM
Actually, on average, the warehouses are most filled during winter. For most realms, of course, the absolute most food in the warehouses would (generally) be either the last day of autumn or the first day of winter (depending on how the game calculates things). However, barring changes in food supply other than seasonal changes (obviously never the case), amount of food in the warehouses at the start of autumn is:
S
and at the end is:
S + 2H - C
where S equals initial stores, H equals normal daily harvest, and C equals daily consumption. In winter it is at the beginning:
S + 2H - C
and at the end:
S + 9/4H - 2C
There are more elegant formulas to find the average at any time, but I forget enough statistics that I'll leave that for another time or someone else. But basically, for realms that have more or less equal production and consumption (or higher production than consumption), you end winter with more food than you began autumn.
In short: storehouses are most filled at the end of autumn and beginning of winter with a slight skew towards winter because they don't empty as fast as they fill.
In a world where your fields and warehouses aren't being burnt to a crisp all autumn long, your supposition holds true. In a world where your fields and warehouses
are being burnt to a crisp, your region will already be starving when winter sets in. The resulting math is much less pretty.
Quote from: Chénier on September 12, 2012, 01:04:57 AM
Experience suggests that if you loot for x hours with y men, you will burn more food if the warehouses have 5000 bushels than if they have 200. Therefore, to maximize food burnt ratio by men by hours spent, it is preferable to attack them when the warehouses are the most filled.
Beginning of winter, then. ;-)
Quote from: Geronus on September 12, 2012, 06:19:55 AM
In a world where your fields and warehouses aren't being burnt to a crisp all autumn long, your supposition holds true. In a world where your fields and warehouses are being burnt to a crisp, your region will already be starving when winter sets in. The resulting math is much less pretty.
Well, yes. But the point was when a single looting attack would find the most food in stores.
To actually do the most damage, drive their rurals into the ground for all of autumn, and they will suffer.
Quote from: Tom on September 12, 2012, 07:40:32 AM
Beginning of winter, then. ;-)
I'd say right before winter, because in winter travel is longer, therefore giving you less hours to loot. ;)
Travel delays are a greater impairment to the attacker than the defender, as the latter doesn't have as far to travel to intercept. Winter is not invasion-friendly.
Quote from: Woelfy on September 11, 2012, 07:22:12 PM
At the same time, I'll use RL logic regarding winter: who wants to march in snow, or fight in the freezing wind? Winter wars make people absolutely miserable on each side. Invasions of western Russia by any number of militaries springs to mind...
A quote comes to mind:
"Rule 1, on page 1 of the book of war, is: 'Do not march on Moscow' " - Viscount Montgomery Of Alamein
Quote from: Galvez on October 05, 2012, 11:18:13 AM
"Rule 1, on page 1 of the book of war, is: 'Do not march on Moscow' " - Viscount Montgomery Of Alamein
What other choice do you have once you got yourself embroiled in a land war in Asia?!? :o
Quote from: vonGenf on October 05, 2012, 12:08:27 PM
What other choice do you have once you got yourself embroiled in a land war in Asia?!? :o
That's rule 2:
"(Rule 2) is: 'Do not go fighting with your land armies in China." Just stay away from Moscow and China and surrounding Asian nations. Just go conquer the Levant, like literally everyone in history has done.
Quote from: Galvez on October 05, 2012, 04:29:17 PM
That's rule 2:
"(Rule 2) is: 'Do not go fighting with your land armies in China."
Just stay away from Moscow and China and surrounding Asian nations. Just go conquer the Levant, like literally everyone in history has done.
Nono, it's the most well-known of the classic blunders. Only slightly less well-known is "never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line."
Hahahahahahahah! Hahahahahahaha! Hahahahaha—*
Quote from: Galvez on October 05, 2012, 11:18:13 AM
A quote comes to mind:
"Rule 1, on page 1 of the book of war, is: 'Do not march on Moscow' " - Viscount Montgomery Of Alamein
Quote from: Galvez on October 05, 2012, 04:29:17 PM
That's rule 2:
"(Rule 2) is: 'Do not go fighting with your land armies in China."
Just stay away from Moscow and China and surrounding Asian nations. Just go conquer the Levant, like literally everyone in history has done.
The mongols would disagree.
Quote from: JPierreD on October 06, 2012, 12:26:07 AM
The mongols would disagree.
The mongols didn't march--they rode.
The mongols are always the exception. See john green's video series on youtube about world history. (funniest history lesson ever!)
Quote from: Galvez on October 05, 2012, 04:29:17 PM
Just go conquer the Levant, like literally everyone in history has done.
Pretty good accounting of that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY
One thing about wars in Winter, for the time being anyway, is that you can only be in starving regions for 5 days. At that point, you have to head to a region that will not starve. And remain there until winter is over.
When will the "Buy Provisions" be set up?
Quote from: Charles on October 12, 2012, 05:29:32 PM
One thing about wars in Winter, for the time being anyway, is that you can only be in starving regions for 5 days. At that point, you have to head to a region that will not starve. And remain there until winter is over.
When will the "Buy Provisions" be set up?
I'm sorry, am I missing something here?
You want to solve the absence of food by having the ability to ... buy food? Which isn't there? Otherwise there wouldn't be starvation?
You can't gain provisions right now. The only time you can gain provisions is when regions provide a surplus. In winter there is no harvest. You can buy food, but you can't buy provisions.
Quote from: Charles on October 12, 2012, 07:47:41 PM
You can't gain provisions right now. The only time you can gain provisions is when regions provide a surplus. In winter there is no harvest. You can buy food, but you can't buy provisions.
There most certainly is harvest in winter. It's just smaller.
Are there any regions with a surplus?
Quote from: Charles on October 12, 2012, 10:21:00 PM
Are there any regions with a surplus?
There should be many rural regions that produce more than 4 times what their own population needs to survive (which is what you need for a surplus in winter).
Ok, I guess there are just none near me. In winter we produce 25%?
Quote from: Charles on October 13, 2012, 01:21:36 AM
Ok, I guess there are just none near me. In winter we produce 25%?
That's what he just said, and seems to fit with what I recall.
Also keep in mind that the massive negative production that drove a dozen regions rogue last winter is no longer in place.
I'm pretty sure that winter is 50%, spring is 75%, summer is 100%, and fall is 125%...
Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on October 13, 2012, 02:07:43 PM
I'm pretty sure that winter is 50%, spring is 75%, summer is 100%, and fall is 125%...
And you think you know better than the guy who
wrote the season-based production adjustment code why?
Winter is 25%, spring is 75%, summer is 100%, autumn is 200%.
Hey, easy there. I just said what I thought it was, not that I knew for a fact.
I knew it had to average off to 100% across all seasons.
Quote from: Anaris on October 13, 2012, 04:28:57 PM
And you think you know better than the guy who wrote the season-based production adjustment code why?
Winter is 25%, spring is 75%, summer is 100%, autumn is 200%.
wiki updated.
No Asylion regions starving since the begging of winter. Quite good.
I stockpiled something like 900 bushels in Mech Derris during Autumn. Most of it went to Golden Farrow, but I still ended up with a decent store.
I think one of the consequences of the Long Winter is that now I'm much more paranoid at keeping a fat, fat reserve of food. :D
Quote from: Feylonis on October 15, 2012, 09:18:25 PM
I stockpiled something like 900 bushels in Mech Derris during Autumn. Most of it went to Golden Farrow, but I still ended up with a decent store.
I think one of the consequences of the Long Winter is that now I'm much more paranoid at keeping a fat, fat reserve of food. :D
You think *you* are paranoid? How do you think D'Haran dukes are when it comes to food? :P
at the beginning of winter I had over 2000 bushels. Still have enough to last about 70 days. Yeah, we are paranoid.
Quote from: Forbes Family on October 16, 2012, 01:54:14 AM
at the beginning of winter I had over 2000 bushels. Still have enough to last about 70 days. Yeah, we are paranoid.
I remember back when we could start to build more warehouses... we were all like "MUST... BUILD... MOAR... WAREHOUSES..."
Quote from: Chénier on October 16, 2012, 02:27:49 AM
I remember back when we could start to build more warehouses... we were all like "MUST... BUILD... MOAR... WAREHOUSES..."
Those were good times, when we had 70+ days of food stored, about 20,000 bushels.
Quote from: egamma on October 16, 2012, 02:57:39 AM
Those were good times, when we had 70+ days of food stored, about 20,000 bushels.
Glorious. :D
I shudder to think of how much we lost in rot...
Quote from: Indirik on October 16, 2012, 04:18:52 AM
I shudder to think of how much we lost in rot...
That was before rot, mostly.
Quote from: egamma on October 16, 2012, 03:56:11 PM
That was before rot, mostly.
And we had the infrastructure in place to maintain most of it.