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So please take a vote, and if you'd rather not comment there is no need to. However, comments are welcome as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not on Atamara at present, and I don't like it.

Quote from: Anaris on October 22, 2012, 10:10:46 PM
I'm not on Atamara at present, and I don't like it.

Poll adjusted to give that an option.

Would you put Carelians into the allied with CE/Tara group or no? We are allied with Tara but only at peace with CE.

I think things could be a lot more interesting, but at the same time I still have lots that I want to/can do currently within the CE/Tara block.

Quote from: Penchant on October 22, 2012, 10:24:05 PM
Would you put Carelians into the allied with CE/Tara group or no? We are allied with Tara but only at peace with CE.

In that case (where allied with one and not the other) I think its up to you where you place your vote.

Personally, I consider the CE/Tara federated allies to include only those who are allied with both realms. (ie. Allied with the federation) Thus: CE, Tara, Talerium, Coria, Strombran.

I'm not on Atamara, I don't like the situation but I do admire what CE has done. They've all but achieved hegemony on AT and they've done it through years and years of dedication and hard work. It's not an easy thing to pull off and they sure as hell deserve the fruits of their labour in my opinion. And if that means that there's less fruit for others to enjoy, then they probably deserve that too.

Quote from: Lorgan on October 22, 2012, 10:39:22 PM
I'm not on Atamara, I don't like the situation but I do admire what CE has done. They've all but achieved hegemony on AT and they've done it through years and years of dedication and hard work. It's not an easy thing to pull off and they sure as hell deserve the fruits of their labour in my opinion. And if that means that there's less fruit for others to enjoy, then they probably deserve that too.

I don't think anyone would disagree with this. They deserve a lot of credit and applause for their accomplishments.


However, doesn't mean I have to LIKE it.  >:(

Well, the answer depends on if you take it from an OOC or IC viewpoint. OOC, I give CE their props. They've done a hell of a job, and I admire the power bloc they've created. IC, my character thinks they need stopped before they overrun the entire continent.

Edit: I've answered the poll as my character would see it from an IC standpoint.

There is one gameplay/mechanic issue I see in this whole question and that is that the BM worlds are isolated, so once you effectively control an island, there is nowhere challengers could come from except from within.

I honestly never thought that would be possible, the islands are pretty damn huge.

Quote from: Tom on October 22, 2012, 11:02:14 PM
There is one gameplay/mechanic issue I see in this whole question and that is that the BM worlds are isolated, so once you effectively control an island, there is nowhere challengers could come from except from within.

I honestly never thought that would be possible, the islands are pretty damn huge.

Well, while the CE/Tara federation does not exclusively control the entire island, they have enough control of the island such that they themselves are permanently untouchable so long as their internal politics remain true. They are thus able to exert overt influence on the rest of the island because of their military predominance. The rest of the island has already attempted a federation vs non-federation war and lost. Even though they should have likely won based purely upon military statistics they did end up losing and are in an even worse position now. Under the current federation, it is nearly impossible to stop them.

However, much props goes to CE's military leadership and organized military. Even when outnumbered they've managed to win time and again. Yet, that means that now that they have the numbers, it is even more difficult.

Then again, CE and Tara alone once isolated could not hold onto the situation that they currently have. Should their current allies (Talerium, Coria, and Strombran) or even two of those allies turn against the federation, the federation couldn't stand. However, the political situation means that any of those allies that chose to abandon the CE/Tara federation would then be the "odd man out" in any new alliance they joined. This means it is by far safer for these allies to remain with the federation than to go it alone. It is therefore the political reality of the IC interactions that while CE and Tara technically can be defeated, the impetus to do so is left in the hands of those who would be directly harmed by allowing it to occur. Long-term the allies may benefit, or in the short-term they may just be ripped to shreds.

That's the beauty of the CE/Tara federation. Through a combination of military might, political alliances, and simple realities for their buffer states, they've built up the most secure and formidable coalition on Atamara. One that cannot be defeated or divided without some characters making actions which aren't necessarily in their full best interests.

You might as well include Talerium in that as well. I don't think they've ever gone against CE.

That being said, I'm on Atamara and not really liking the situation that much. We tried to do something about it(Darka, Eston, Carelia and the rest), but in the end a multitude of reasons just ended up !@#$ing everything up..most of those reason having zero to do with how "awesome" CE is and more with how utterly unreliable a lot of people(and realms) in the game are.

Quote from: LilWolf on October 22, 2012, 11:44:39 PM
You might as well include Talerium in that as well. I don't think they've ever gone against CE.

That being said, I'm on Atamara and not really liking the situation that much. We tried to do something about it(Darka, Eston, Carelia and the rest), but in the end a multitude of reasons just ended up !@#$ing everything up..most of those reason having zero to do with how "awesome" CE is and more with how utterly unreliable a lot of people(and realms) in the game are.

Talerium is definitely a core member of the federation of allies, however as they aren't in the "Federation" version of alliance I'm keeping them as allies for my consideration here. They have sided with CE every time just as Coria and Strombran have done the same, but I don't consider them the main force behind the alliance. It is the personal size of CE and Tara that are quite formidable in and of themselves.

I have nothing against it, in fact i think is pretty cool.

You only see CE/Tara, but you have no idea how hard is to form an Empire and rule everything.

The Empire circle formed by:
Cagilan (Main)
Tara (Satelite)
Coria (Buffer)
Strombran (Buffer)

Is not easy to achieve on BM, many have tried to form satellite realms but have failed (sorry for Dunnera, DOA and SOA fans*) It wasn't been cheap, all that was for a cost, the Empire main realm used to have 150 +/- nobles, after years of expansion they have now 60s. but their block is solid.

Not only that, the Empire also have Allies who will swing their way:
Tallerium (Brother in Arms)
Suville (New guy in the neighborhood)

All that takes great political skills and a good base of Loyalty, i respect that. i would not like to see them apart. Now the northern alliance have to rebuild and come back with a better plan in hand to start another Great Continent Wide War.

Keep it going!


ps:
*: East Continent

Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 22, 2012, 11:48:27 PM
Talerium is definitely a core member of the federation of allies, however as they aren't in the "Federation" version of alliance I'm keeping them as allies for my consideration here. They have sided with CE every time just as Coria and Strombran have done the same, but I don't consider them the main force behind the alliance. It is the personal size of CE and Tara that are quite formidable in and of themselves.

Meh, if it were only CE and Tara there wouldn't be any problems. They're not that dominant. Just Darka and Eston together come pretty close in the amount of nobles and both realms probably have enough gold to keep fielding good armies that could match up against them. Add in a third realm and you'd have a good fight. In terms of gold on hand Darka's probably as rich as all(well, most of) the other realms combined on Atamara so it could support an pretty massive offensive in terms of gold if there was the opportunity for it. Which there isn't because of the outlying realms.

You can't really ignore Talerium since they effectively mean CE doesn't need to worry about the north in any way. That entire part of CE is perfectly safe because of them. So the problem isn't really so much the federation as it is the corner realms that gravitate towards it due to blind loyalty(or fear).

Would the federation breaking change things? Maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath for Talerium to stop from supporting CE and keeping their north safe.

Quote from: Sonya on October 23, 2012, 12:10:19 AM
Now the northern alliance have to rebuild and come back with a better plan in hand to start another Great Continent Wide War.

Keep it going!

People are bored with the war. It's not going anywhere. The north alone could probably take on CE & Tara, but as you just listed they have all of the south there to support them so it's just not going to happen unless those outlying realms suddenly decide to switch sides(which they probably won't).

And trusting Suville to do anything is like putting your hand in a basket full of pissed off snakes. You will get bitten.

I think people whine too much and act too little.

Quote from: Sonya on October 23, 2012, 12:10:19 AM
You only see CE/Tara, but you have no idea how hard is to form an Empire and rule everything.

For the record: I helped set it up (the current one) and was one of the leading members in maintaining the growth of the Empire until I left to found Coria. My character is still one of the main contributors towards the continuing prosperity of the empire CE has set up due to being one of the leaders of Coria one of its "buffer" realms shall you say.

Just a bit of background to back up the statements I've been making. I am well aware of how CE runs their empire and all of the work that goes into it. It is very impressive.

Quote from: LilWolf on October 23, 2012, 12:22:22 AM
Meh, if it were only CE and Tara there wouldn't be any problems. They're not that dominant. Just Darka and Eston together come pretty close in the amount of nobles and both realms probably have enough gold to keep fielding good armies that could match up against them. Add in a third realm and you'd have a good fight. In terms of gold on hand Darka's probably as rich as all(well, most of) the other realms combined on Atamara so it could support an pretty massive offensive in terms of gold if there was the opportunity for it. Which there isn't because of the outlying realms.

You can't really ignore Talerium since they effectively mean CE doesn't need to worry about the north in any way. That entire part of CE is perfectly safe because of them. So the problem isn't really so much the federation as it is the corner realms that gravitate towards it due to blind loyalty(or fear).

Would the federation breaking change things? Maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath for Talerium to stop from supporting CE and keeping their north safe.

You're right that CE and Tara alone don't exactly mean anything. But, a lot of your statement is also looking explicitly with the intention to go fight and beat CE and/or Tara. I think the primary issue is not "Can we beat them in a war" but, "Is it even feasible to consider anything other than alliance" for the current allies of the federation. So long as CE and Tara stand united, why should any of their other realms even bother contemplating a different path, when it only means destruction, loss of safety, etc...

If the federation is split, then CE can have its own diplomacy and its own wars, and Tara can have its own diplomacy and its own wars. Right now that is impossible. This means that any war that Tara is in, CE is in as well. Then they both bring their whole slew of allies with them.  Any war involving any of the 5 realms automatically becomes a war involving all 5. THAT is what is toxic.

Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 23, 2012, 12:30:47 AM
If the federation is split, then CE can have its own diplomacy and its own wars, and Tara can have its own diplomacy and its own wars. Right now that is impossible. This means that any war that Tara is in, CE is in as well. Then they both bring their whole slew of allies with them.  Any war involving any of the 5 realms automatically becomes a war involving all 5. THAT is what is toxic.

Eh, that isn't going to change very easily. Even if the federation is broken you'd need a real bloody war between the two before they'd pursue their agendas on their own and I honestly just don't see that happening.

Quote from: LilWolf on October 23, 2012, 12:54:02 AM
I honestly just don't see that happening.

^I think this is the primary point worth making though.

So are we trying to find someone to blame for CE-Tara federations?

Honestly its everyone's fault on AT. For years everyone has gone along with it. The war with Fasland was a big step, Redspan's destruction, Darka working with CE-Tara for so long, the south breaking apart . It was inevitable that this was gonna happen.

What some of you forget is that Darka has maintained its region untouched since before 2005, ha KK has done a excellent job leading Darka since Mr. Jones and Whiteknight united it. Truly worth mentioning since now CE and company are on their doorstep almost.

I don't think Tara immediately jumped into the war when CE was attacked, did they? I haven't been very much involved with AT to know if that was for purely strategic reasons or if their participation was not accepted as fact yet. If it was for the last reason... maybe the CE-Tara alliance is not THAT stable in non-threatening circumstances and may fall apart when things settle down.

Tara did not fight directly with CE on the same battlefield. But they were definitely fighting on CEs side. They were fighting in the northeast to hold off MI/BoM/Hammarsett/Darka so they could not directly attack CE, and to prop up Coria.

Quote from: Indirik on October 23, 2012, 02:15:59 AM
Tara did not fight directly with CE on the same battlefield. But they were definitely fighting on CEs side. They were fighting in the northeast to hold off MI/BoM/Hammarsett/Darka so they could not directly attack CE, and to prop up Coria.

To be honest in the beginning of the war when Suville was still witht he southern coalition, some moral-wise rather important battles within CE were fought with Tara using their dipmomatic relations to change the allegiances so that the whole southern assault was halted, we ended up with a third of our force on the other side by accident. Obviously we are going with the Suville being untrustworthy scounderels of no honor until the end of days due to these events, but I do believe they were an accident that caused the war go as it went.

Politics, everything is politics.

The same politics that avoided BoM, MI and Eston to make BBQ smacks with Barad Falas.
The Same politics that made Ser'quea seceded into Helmsdale.
The same politic that stopped Caergoth of firefighting the Empire.
The Same politics that made Suville join the Empire and attack Carelia.

That's people is how you win wars, give others what they wish at low risk and they will do what you want.

What? do you think i didn't received offers from the Empire when i was the Duchess of Strombran? of course i did! But sadly i play my main character as a honorable "For The Crown" noble, and wouldn't betray my realm, well one of these days i make a villain character....

But that is how is, you cant expect Tallerium or any other supporter to switch the winning side of you are not offering something better in exchange.

And as far i can tell, by the moment, the Empire have the good cards.

So again, stop complaining, rebuild, load and fire away.

Peace! (http://www.myemoticons.com/emoticons/images/msn/new-emoticons/peace.gif)

This whole thing seems kinda off to me. We're discussing IC things at an OOC level so we can change them at an OOC level? I won't deny that if the majority believes it is stalling the game and killing the fun, something should be done, but that doesn't make sense to have the players do it for OOC reasons. In many cases, it would require some places to totally flip their current IC reputation. If the devs wanted to drop something in to accomplish the same end, that might be fine. (For example, throw in a Daimon invasion. I wonder how many would actively fight the daimons and how many would take advantage of the chaos.)

There has to be a good way to do this instead. I can think of several in-character ways someone might be able to pull it off, but right now, neither of my Atamaran characters can see a logical reason to do those things. Ravendon has the power, but is failing to see the good in splitting the federation for the moment. Despite his thoughts about Tara, he's no longer suffering from them and has no urgent need to fix it. Maduin is so far away that while he'd do anything to bring Vikings battlefield success, he can't reasonably change things.

I think we should treat it as a logic puzzle: How do you attack one ally without provoking the other? Whoever finds out how wins a revolution on Atamara. :D

You're all thinking wrong! I've been involved in CE, Tara, and Talerium since I started playing the game, and well... I can think of a great way to split the federation, but that doesn't benefit my characters so why would I?

Quote from: BarticaBoat on October 23, 2012, 05:23:07 AM
You're all thinking wrong! I've been involved in CE, Tara, and Talerium since I started playing the game, and well... I can think of a great way to split the federation, but that doesn't benefit my characters so why would I?

Precisely. However, if you had a character that say... wanted to rule a realm in Atamara, you could always try to start up within CE or Tara. That would benefit your character for sure, provided your character's goal is to do that. One of the problems with having the power to deal in realm-to-realm politics is that you have likely reached your character's aspirations... All that's left is to expand or keep it going. The best way to keep it going for the CE/Tara bloc is to keep CE/Tara working. They've actually been pretty good about giving regions to those they help as well. Coria's about doubled in size and Tara's asked for essentially nothing in return. While it's true I'd have been pissed if they did considering how they fielded their troops, they technically could have asked for some of Coria's southern regions.

You know who's been sitting pretty for too long? Darka and BoM. "Corner realms" have serious advantages in this game. The more neighbors you have, the more friendships you have to maintain, and the more wolves you have to keep at bay. If you only have two neighbors, just kiss up to the stronger one and slap the weaker one around. Easy. You are now free to spend the rest of your energy to actually influence people, instead of just working toward mere survival.

How long has it been since a region bearing a Darkan and Makarian banner has been attacked? Years?

And that breeds complacency. The last time CE marched on BoM, Sordnaz threw a hissy fit in the rulers' channel. He couldn't imagine that anyone would dare to invade his realm. And it's true. You have to be a special breed of crazy to invade BoM. BoM is like Russia except it's winter all the time.

So excuse me if I tune off every time someone starts going off again about how easy CE and Tara have it on AT.

Quote from: GoldPanda on October 23, 2012, 08:16:30 AM
So excuse me if I tune off every time someone starts going off again about how easy CE and Tara have it on AT.

I don't think anyone is asserting that CE and Tara have it easy on Atamara. They work hard for their position.

I would assert though that CE and Tara have it easy in keeping their nobles entertained. They just play the game normally. If you're a corner realm you have to make up junk like being a "viking" or being a "mercenary" to make your nobles interested in staying in a wasteland of territory for so long.

Well, CE and its colony realms are mostly "Medival-Roman" flavored. Some realms put more effort into the "Roman" part than others. I always imagined that Cagilan Senators wore togas over their armor, at least when they are in Cagil.

... Hey that's it! We have to conquer other realms and form buffer states. We are Roman. You don't tell a Viking to stop looting, do you?

Stop oppressing our culture, man.  >:(

Quote from: GoldPanda on October 23, 2012, 08:35:54 AM
Well, CE and its colony realms are mostly "Medival-Roman" flavored. Some realms put more effort into the "Roman" part than others. I always imagined that Cagilan Senators wore togas over their armor, at least when they are in Cagil.

... Hey that's it! We have to conquer other realms and form buffer states. We are Roman. You don't tell a Viking to stop looting, do you?

Stop oppressing our culture, man.  >:(

You're right I don't tell a viking to stop looting. I just kill him. He usually stops at that point.

I guess the rest of Atamara could do the same thing to CE. Just kill the romans, they'll eventually stop colonizing you after a few millennium pass. But not until every single realm has a Senate and worships Caesar (Enri) as a god.

So, I guess we just wait for CE to fall apart through internal bad governance like Rome did?

Funny how most of the support for the status quo comes from CE-Tara...

Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 23, 2012, 08:54:05 AM
But not until every single realm has a Senate and worships Caesar (Enri) as a god.

Sadly, we both know that the northern barbarians are too uncivilized to ever be able to adopt glorious RomanCagilan culture. :'(

Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on October 23, 2012, 09:00:36 AM
Funny how most of the support for the status quo comes from CE-Tara...

Err, no. Unless you define "Funny" as "It makes sense that". Most people don't.  ;)

Quote from: GoldPanda on October 23, 2012, 08:16:30 AM
And that breeds complacency. The last time CE marched on BoM, Sordnaz threw a hissy fit in the rulers' channel. He couldn't imagine that anyone would dare to invade his realm. And it's true. You have to be a special breed of crazy to invade BoM. BoM is like Russia except it's winter all the time.

Wait, when was that? I don't even remember.

Quote from: GoldPanda on October 23, 2012, 09:08:20 AM
Sadly, we both know that the northern barbarians are too uncivilized to ever be able to adopt glorious RomanCagilan culture. :'(

This is slowly turning into a realistic history session... Set up a colosseum and throw them in as gladiators! They might enjoy that, though.

Quote from: GoldPanda on October 23, 2012, 08:16:30 AM
How long has it been since a region bearing a Darkan and Makarian banner has been attacked? Years?

Three years or so for Darka. Back when we took Massillion from Eston. We've had to make some tough decisions to keep things that way so don't say we've had it easy.

Quote
And that breeds complacency. The last time CE marched on BoM, Sordnaz threw a hissy fit in the rulers' channel. He couldn't imagine that anyone would dare to invade his realm.

Like the ruler of Tara who has complained endlessly about Darka looting his lands and called us dishonorable etc. because of it? Funny he had no problems with it when our army was on his side :)

All you need is a silly person as a ruler to get silly tantrums.

Quote
So excuse me if I tune off every time someone starts going off again about how easy CE and Tara have it on AT.

They've had tough times. Tara could easily have been killed had some choices been made in another way years ago. Sadly, can't change the past.

I cant say that i enjoy the current situation at Atamara, but then again, i really must raise my hat how CE has managed to keep things together.

It will be intresting to see how it will evolve from now. Will CE slap northeners more and continue its war efforts... Now things might get real intresting. How strong is "alliance" between Coria & Eston and Coria & CE... will Estons "gamble" that they protected Coria pay off now and Coria will come to help them. If not, that should open up Estons eyes for true color of Corians.

Will Darka continue help Eston? I think so, we dont want CE/Coria as our neighbour. Mainly i would wish war to end and let things to get stabilized a bit so we could see a bit where everybody stands. I think there are some uneasy relations and relations which need much work to get them back to proper state. Coria / Tara, Darka / Talerium... dont know much of situation at Abbylandia at south.

Back to the topic... yeah, annoying situation but i think and trust that this game balances itself at some point.

Quote from: Tom on October 22, 2012, 11:02:14 PM
I honestly never thought that would be possible, the islands are pretty damn huge.

At first when realms had grow without penalty, all they have to do was move the capital city to the new conquered Duchy, but then it was forbidden, but still, we  had the issue of realm having the ability to nearly take over a continent.

Then it was implemented the Distance-From-Capital penalty. After that, huge realms were at disadvantages, then they find a way to increase expansion with satellite realms, Conquer+Create, it happens in every continent, and until it becomes impossible to create a new realm for Expansion Purpose, it will always happens.

From an outside point of view everyone can see that Game Mechanics have been used well, but separating the Federation, will solve nothing, because the players of all these realm were at the beginning in the same realm, so it will happen again, and again with just a different banner.

I will repeat myself:

"Until it becomes impossible to create a new realm for Expansion Purpose, it will always happens"

Quote from: Tom on October 22, 2012, 11:02:14 PM
There is one gameplay/mechanic issue I see in this whole question and that is that the BM worlds are isolated, so once you effectively control an island, there is nowhere challengers could come from except from within.

I honestly never thought that would be possible, the islands are pretty damn huge.

If CE effectively controlled the whole island, I think challenge would come from within. Nobody would like playing without any challenge at all.

If a block is truly united, then it is because they see outside forces as effectively threatening. Unity is not a natural direction to go towards without a threat.

Quote from: vonGenf on October 23, 2012, 03:57:16 PM
If CE effectively controlled the whole island, I think challenge would come from within. Nobody would like playing without any challenge at all.

If a block is truly united, then it is because they see outside forces as effectively threatening. Unity is not a natural direction to go towards without a threat.

So how do you explain the Long Peace?

Quote from: Sonya on October 23, 2012, 12:10:19 AM
All that takes great political skills and a good base of Loyalty, i respect that. i would not like to see them apart. Now the northern alliance have to rebuild and come back with a better plan in hand to start another Great Continent Wide War.

Keep it going!


ps:
*: East Continent

Because the last one was so much fun... ? Ahem. !@#$ that. I have absolutely no interest in providing bread and circuses for the players in the federation. I think it's been well established that their federation is untouchable so long as it remains united, so really all we would be doing is continuing to entertain those players, thereby robbing them of any incentive to shake things up or pursue the kind of internal conflicts that might actually have a chance of changing the status quo.

Can we add an option to the poll for "Horrific daimon invasion"?

Quote from: Anaris on October 23, 2012, 04:06:12 PM
So how do you explain the Long Peace?

There is a difference between gridlock and control! Long peace can come about when two secure groups are both strong enough to defend themselves, but not strong enough to attack the other.

If one group truly controlled the whole continent, there wouldn't be anything to defend from.

Quote from: vonGenf on October 23, 2012, 04:29:30 PM
If one group truly controlled the whole continent, there wouldn't be anything to defend from.

There are realms not in the federation, if that's what you mean. As long as the federation stays together though, they are hardly a threat. Control is not the word to use, but you cannot deny that the federation has hegemonic status on Atamara. They are fully capable of enforcing long periods of peace on the island, should it suit them.

Quote from: vonGenf on October 23, 2012, 04:29:30 PM
There is a difference between gridlock and control! Long peace can come about when two secure groups are both strong enough to defend themselves, but not strong enough to attack the other.

If one group truly controlled the whole continent, there wouldn't be anything to defend from.

I think you're still missing two important elements, though.

The first is the tendency for people in positions of power—particularly relatively unimaginative people in positions of power—to do everything they can to maintain that power. This often means maintaining the status quo, even when it might be against the players' best interests—or even the realm's best interests.

The second if the tendency for ordinary players to accept the status quo, and even help to preserve it through minor actions.  In most places in the game, internal strife and a desire to break apart are very hard to instill in any but a very small proportion of the population. This is why even though a lot of people in Old Grehk were frustrated, bored, and angry about it, King Vagabond was able to keep them out of wars for over a year, and still maintain his throne. This is why the Long Peace had to be broken with lightning bolts—not with rebellions or other internal conflicts.

Quote from: Geronus on October 23, 2012, 04:34:38 PM
There are realms not in the federation, if that's what you mean. As long as the federation stays together though, they are hardly a threat. Control is not the word to use, but you cannot deny that the federation has hegemonic status on Atamara. They are fully capable of enforcing long periods of peace on the island, should it suit them.

But, how are they able to enforce periods of peace? By threatening war to those who refuse to remain peaceful.

But if they carry on their threat, then you have a war, so problem solved! You have wars until such a point where they factually control the whole continent (i.e. all rulers are "they", whichever side they ends up being). At this point, the worst thing you could do would be to present them with an external threat. If they fear, then they will remain united and huddle together.

Note that I'm not trying to argue that gridlock is good (I don't think it is), I'm arguing that presenting an external threat in the form of cross-island links would not help the situation.

Quote from: Anaris on October 23, 2012, 04:36:04 PM
The second if the tendency for ordinary players to accept the status quo, and even help to preserve it through minor actions.  In most places in the game, internal strife and a desire to break apart are very hard to instill in any but a very small proportion of the population. This is why even though a lot of people in Old Grehk were frustrated, bored, and angry about it, King Vagabond was able to keep them out of wars for over a year, and still maintain his throne. This is why the Long Peace had to be broken with lightning bolts—not with rebellions or other internal conflicts.

Can you give me an historical primer on that? I though you were talking about the long peace on EC.

Quote from: vonGenf on October 23, 2012, 04:41:21 PM
But, how are they able to enforce periods of peace? By threatening war to those who refuse to remain peaceful.

Yes, a brief, one-sided war, that ends in total destruction for one realm.

That's not particularly fun for most people either.

Quote from: vonGenf on October 23, 2012, 04:43:29 PM
Can you give me an historical primer on that? I though you were talking about the long peace on EC.

Sorry; two separate incidents. The Long Peace was on the EC, but the Year of Peace in OG is another example of why TMP was originally created.

Quote from: vonGenf on October 23, 2012, 04:41:21 PM
But, how are they able to enforce periods of peace? By threatening war to those who refuse to remain peaceful.

But if they carry on their threat, then you have a war, so problem solved! You have wars until such a point where they factually control the whole continent (i.e. all rulers are "they", whichever side they ends up being). At this point, the worst thing you could do would be to present them with an external threat. If they fear, then they will remain united and huddle together.

Note that I'm not trying to argue that gridlock is good (I don't think it is), I'm arguing that presenting an external threat in the form of cross-island links would not help the situation.

[/b]

Is someone arguing for that? I think Tom only raised the point to observe the resulting gameplay issue that arises once one power bloc effectively dominates an island, not to suggest that inter-island travel links are the obvious solution.

The problem with your hypothesis, applied to this situation at least, is that the federation doesn't control everything. Instead they control just enough to ensure that they can no longer be challenged. There are still enough independent realms on the island to provide elements of randomness and intrigue, which in turn provide just enough challenge to keep things interesting without actually threatening the hold that they have. In fact, they are not necessarily interested in creating a long peace; they need wars to keep themselves entertained as much as anyone else does. What they have done instead is create a situation where war is no longer a risk for them. They literally cannot lose, so they are able to enter wars with impunity. Unfortunately, this creates a situation where all wars are by implication conducted with the federation's tacit permission and under terms dictated by the federation. They have have the power to decide who fights who and who wins in the end. Realms that get into wars without the federation's permission end up fighting the entire federation and are either destroyed or reduced. Thus, if you are an independent realm that wants to pursue a conflict, you have two choices: Ensure that the federation either remains neutral or comes down on your side, which involves essentially obtaining their permission to fight, or risk the consequences of having the federation side against you. This is the most brilliant form of control possible in BM, and really the only one that could ever work over the long term.

The main point is that this form of federation control has worked for a long time now. It worked long enough that everyone else got fed up with it, and tried to stop it from then on. This realm wide "revolt" if you will. Failed for a number of reasons but was essentially the last ditch effort by non-federation forces to change the situation. But, now that they've lost its essentially impossible to ever start up such a revolt again so the federation has essentially "Won" Atamara.

Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 23, 2012, 05:11:10 PM
The main point is that this form of federation control has worked for a long time now. It worked long enough that everyone else got fed up with it, and tried to stop it from then on. This realm wide "revolt" if you will. Failed for a number of reasons but was essentially the last ditch effort by non-federation forces to change the situation. But, now that they've lost its essentially impossible to ever start up such a revolt again so the federation has essentially "Won" Atamara.

Agreed. This "Great War" was a last ditch effort by the rest of the island to change the trajectory of history away from domination by the federation. It failed, and the outcome of the war makes it even more difficult to change things.

Quote from: Geronus on October 23, 2012, 05:05:06 PM
Is someone arguing for that? I think Tom only raised the point to observe the resulting gameplay issue that arises once one power bloc effectively dominates an island, not to suggest that inter-island travel links are the obvious solution.

Well, I interpreted Tom's comment as "there should always be an external challenger, I thought I had made the islands big enough". I'm arguing that a finite size is a good thing, and that as complete hegemony is achieved, it will crumble.

Quote from: Geronus on October 23, 2012, 05:05:06 PM
The problem with your hypothesis, applied to this situation at least, is that the federation doesn't control everything. Instead they control just enough to ensure that they can no longer be challenged. There are still enough independent realms on the island to provide elements of randomness and intrigue, which in turn provide just enough challenge to keep things interesting without actually threatening the hold that they have. In fact, they are not necessarily interested in creating a long peace; they need wars to keep themselves entertained as much as anyone else does. What they have done instead is create a situation where war is no longer a risk for them. They literally cannot lose, so they are able to enter wars with impunity. Unfortunately, this creates a situation where all wars are by implication conducted with the federation's tacit permission and under terms dictated by the federation. They have have the power to decide who fights who and who wins in the end. Realms that get into wars without the federation's permission end up fighting the entire federation and are either destroyed or reduced. Thus, if you are an independent realm that wants to pursue a conflict, you have two choices: Ensure that the federation either remains neutral or comes down on your side, which involves essentially obtaining their permission to fight, or risk the consequences of having the federation side against you. This is the most brilliant form of control possible in BM, and really the only one that could ever work over the long term.

I agree with you that it is brilliant. However, I don't see it as much of a problem. I don't think that wars occur in a vacuum, and I dislike calls of "leave us have our little war and stay away, it doesn't concern you". Of course every war does concern other realms, as the results will impact them in the future. Politics should be taken in consideration when declaring war.

There is nothing wrong with calling for the federation's blessing if this is what will ensure your victory. It's the clever thing to do.

If anything, the mindset of not asking the Hegemon's blessing because you value your independence is more damaging to the spirit of the game. That creates gridlock, because it causes small realms to retreat from politics and try to keep a low profile because they see any entering into politics as a loss of identity. Identity is fine and dandy, but sometimes to attain a position of power you have to lose a bit of it. That's the price you pay.

Sure, but where's the fun when all wars have a predetermined outcome? Part of the fun of conflict is the uncertainty as to the outcome. People don't play games where the winner is announced in advance.

Quote from: Geronus on October 23, 2012, 05:20:36 PM
Sure, but where's the fun when all wars have a predetermined outcome? Part of the fun of conflict is the uncertainty as to the outcome. People don't play games where the winner is announced in advance.

People don't play games when the winner is announced in advance and is not them.

Quote from: vonGenf on October 23, 2012, 05:21:58 PM
People don't play games when the winner is announced in advance and is not them.

And that is a meaningful distinction because... ? It takes two to tango.

Just for Educational purpose, i will post a picture of the Side Division of of Atamara continent:

(http://imageshack.us/a/img856/3100/atamarasides.th.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/atamarasides.png/)

Was about to put the full image, but didn't wanted to take the space.


Peace!


PS:Go away MS Pain haters!

Quote from: vonGenf on October 23, 2012, 05:17:39 PM
Well, I interpreted Tom's comment as "there should always be an external challenger, I thought I had made the islands big enough". I'm arguing that a finite size is a good thing, and that as complete hegemony is achieved, it will crumble.

I also disagree with your last premise there. I would argue that the federation does enjoy complete hegemony, and has for a long time now, yet shows no signs of crumbling.

I think people see things too dark... CE has once again won a war. But it is not end of the Atamara, has not been before and wont be this time either. If we are able to sign peace, yeap, propably long lasting peace will come... but like after previous huge wars... people grow impatient. People quit, new players come... eventually wars will start to brew again. Time will tell if CE has the skill and patience to keep things together. At some point, one of their puppets wants moar, talk with other puppets(or outside the federation). Maybby CE did what i have always dreamed to do... Win battlemaster :)

-Jaune

Quote from: Geronus on October 23, 2012, 05:29:05 PM
I also disagree with your last premise there. I would argue that the federation does enjoy complete hegemony, and has for a long time now, yet shows no signs of crumbling.

Quote from: Geronus on October 23, 2012, 05:29:05 PM
I also disagree with your last premise there. I would argue that the federation does enjoy complete hegemony, and has for a long time now, yet shows no signs of crumbling.

I think it comes down to this:

You are not paranoid if they're really out to get you.

I think the federation does have an external threat: all other realms are known to be willing to league against them! Of course I wouldn't trust them and I would try to rule by division in their shoes.

You argue that gridlock is caused by an unbeatable federation. I argue that if there is gridlock, then it means the federation is not strong enough to let go.

Quote from: Anaris on October 23, 2012, 04:06:12 PM
So how do you explain the Long Peace?

It was my understanding that the Long Peace on EC was due to OOC considerations. The people in charge were using OOC friendships and relations to maintain their control of the situation. They controlled 4 or so of the 6 federated realms, right? That's why lightning bolts were needed to break it up. The OOC collusion was too strong for IC pressure to break it apart.

(Disclaimer: That was a long time ago, before I was a dev, and I wasn't privy to all the details. I could be wrong.)

Quote from: Indirik on October 23, 2012, 07:14:34 PM
It was my understanding that the Long Peace on EC was due to OOC considerations. The people in charge were using OOC friendships and relations to maintain their control of the situation. They controlled 4 or so of the 6 federated realms, right? That's why lightning bolts were needed to break it up. The OOC collusion was too strong for IC pressure to break it apart.

(Disclaimer: That was a long time ago, before I was a dev, and I wasn't privy to all the details. I could be wrong.)

However, my interpretation of what I was replying to was that the people in the realms would get fed up with the peace and make war happen.

In this case, it was the leaders of the realms who had OOC friendships.

To some extent, the reasons for the leaders to maintain the peace almost doesn't matter. We know there are motivations for the powerful to maintain peace. The question is how they prevent the rabble from overthrowing them to create war.

Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 23, 2012, 05:11:10 PM
The main point is that this form of federation control has worked for a long time now. It worked long enough that everyone else got fed up with it, and tried to stop it from then on. This realm wide "revolt" if you will. Failed for a number of reasons but was essentially the last ditch effort by non-federation forces to change the situation. But, now that they've lost its essentially impossible to ever start up such a revolt again so the federation has essentially "Won" Atamara.

This.

What is even more terrifying is that at this point CE and friends don't even seem interested in any kind of peace that would at least preserve any semblence of the two sides of this conflict. Both Darka and Eston have contacted CE on numerous occasion since the fall of Hammarsett asking for terms only to be completely ignored or blown off. This can only mean that they are seeking the destruction of yet one more of the Northern Realms, which can be assumed to be either Eston or Darka, meaning whenever the war finally does end it the entire island will literally be under Cagilan domination. Crazy.

Quote from: Sonya on October 23, 2012, 05:28:04 PM
(http://imageshack.us/a/img856/3100/atamarasides.th.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/atamarasides.png/)

Thank you for this. It really pushes home the reality of the situation.

Now, given what I have said above, just imagine the Empire side also having destroyed Darka or Eston and a Cagil colony in their place.

Oh come on... Quit whining OOC and play the game. Every island is different and unique. My char has been trying hard to be in the CE "block", but its not a plain block. Every realm inside has its own opinion and voice. Things are damn interesting.

What  I agree, is that indeed, it would be great if threats can come from other islands too. But otherwise it really does not deserve an OOC poll.

Lets PLAY the game IC!

I think the CE-Tara federation speaks more about the quality of the northern alliance then it does of CE's ability to control the island, it's just the result.

And I'm fine with it, even though it landed me in CE's prison for a short vacation.  Hopefully something will energize the north (perhaps CE expanding into Eston?) and the Northern Alliance will become the Mongol Horde and destroy CE.

Quote from: Azerax on October 23, 2012, 09:29:18 PM
I think the CE-Tara federation speaks more about the quality of the northern alliance then it does of CE's ability to control the island, it's just the result.

And I'm fine with it, even though it landed me in CE's prison for a short vacation.  Hopefully something will energize the north (perhaps CE expanding into Eston?) and the Northern Alliance will become the Mongol Horde and destroy CE.

I've been saying for years that Darka's refusal to ever take on Talerium would come back to bite them.

Quote from: Perth on October 23, 2012, 08:11:36 PM
This.

What is even more terrifying is that at this point CE and friends don't even seem interested in any kind of peace that would at least preserve any semblence of the two sides of this conflict. Both Darka and Eston have contacted CE on numerous occasion since the fall of Hammarsett asking for terms only to be completely ignored or blown off. This can only mean that they are seeking the destruction of yet one more of the Northern Realms, which can be assumed to be either Eston or Darka, meaning whenever the war finally does end it the entire island will literally be under Cagilan domination. Crazy.


Thank you for this. It really pushes home the reality of the situation.

Now, given what I have said above, just imagine the Empire side also having destroyed Darka or Eston and a Cagil colony in their place.

If they call pull this off, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be impressed.  Aside from managing an island wide realm, it wouldn't be too long before some duke got the itch to form their own realm.

So by all these comments CE-Tara & company justifies that they are on the right track?




:) ;D

Quote from: Azerax on October 23, 2012, 09:36:29 PM

If they call pull this off, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be impressed.  Aside from managing an island wide realm, it wouldn't be too long before some duke got the itch to form their own realm.

And said duke would be targeted by all allied realms to CE or Tara.

Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on October 23, 2012, 11:47:01 PM
And said duke would be targeted by all allied realms to CE or Tara.

If the allied realms stick together when there is no one to fight except themselves.

Quote from: Perth on October 23, 2012, 08:11:36 PM
What is even more terrifying is that at this point CE and friends don't even seem interested in any kind of peace that would at least preserve any semblence of the two sides of this conflict. Both Darka and Eston have contacted CE on numerous occasion since the fall of Hammarsett asking for terms only to be completely ignored or blown off. This can only mean that they are seeking the destruction of yet one more of the Northern Realms, which can be assumed to be either Eston or Darka, meaning whenever the war finally does end it the entire island will literally be under Cagilan domination. Crazy.

CE made plenty of peace overtures to both Darka and Eston when the war was stalemated. It seems to me that Kerwin and Kostaja are only interested in peace when they are losing, and that they will be back at CE's throat as soon as CE's advantage is gone. Please tell me exactly why CE's leadership should agree to a peace now. Just how stupid do you think they are?

And many nobles in CE still remember Kerwin's gloating and boasts when the war first started (when the map did not look at all like what Sonya posted.) A little humility, and a bit of decency toward one's enemies on Kerwin's part, would have been remembered, and would have gone a long way toward helping him now.

As the Strombranians say, "Ut sementem feceris ita metes."

I agree with Gold Panda on this, CE dont have much of a reason to end war with us now... Only thing would be if they would be busy somewhere else or find it too expensive or frustrating to advance on our lands.

I guess this pretty much leaves us to defencive fight. I have feeling that to get peace, they want something from us... land, gold... or new satellite/buffer. I assume this war will last for a while unless north collapse totally.

CE and Coria was the only ones who replied my offer to end war, Coria replied negative and CE said they will talk about it at their senate. Tara & Stormbran were totally silent, so i guess they are not much of intrested about ending it either.

NA's biggest problem propably were that we had common goal, but very diffrent opinions and "minigoals" to achieve it. Everybody were focusing their personal intrests too... including Darka who refused to open war against Talerium and Eston who signe peace with Coria as soon as possible to secure their border. Carelia fought hard, but lost support of rest of the southeners and got beaten badly.

I could imagine things would have been diffrent if Darka had pushed to Talerium or Eston signed peace with Tallies and refused Corias offers and honey words... and most of all, if south would have really been determined to wage war against CE. So, we blew it up, cause of good politics from enemy or lack of our own planning... prolly both.

But, lets get back to the business :) Seems like this war is far from over and Eston & Darka will have rough road ahead. Now we both must hope there was atleast some sense to keep Coria and Talerium treaties. If those will join/open up borders to CE & Co. Things turn bad pretty fast.

Two can play at this game, Sonya. Purely for educational purposes of course. ;)

Here was the state of AT at the beginning of the war, when the NA + Carelian coalition made their opening moves.

(http://wiki.battlemaster.org/images/thumb/Atamara-war-start.jpg/115px-Atamara-war-start.jpg) (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/images/Atamara-war-start.jpg)

Huh. Suddenly CE and Tara doesn't seem like the big mean bullies anymore? If anything, they are the victims? How can this be? I thought Cagilans ate puppies and sacrificed babies to the volcano! No wait, the volcano is in Darka. Hmm.... ::)

And don't worry jaune, we wouldn't pull a Solaria on you. :D

Quote from: jaune on October 24, 2012, 09:48:18 AM
NA's biggest problem propably were that we had common goal, but very diffrent opinions and "minigoals" to achieve it. Everybody were focusing their personal intrests too... including Darka who refused to open war against Talerium and Eston who signe peace with Coria as soon as possible to secure their border. Carelia fought hard, but lost support of rest of the southeners and got beaten badly.

The same story you get throughout BM and real history. The Mighty Empire (whether it's Evil or not is likely to depend on your point of view) invades the Land of Several Smaller Nations, which then quarrel about how best to fight back against the Empire rather than simply coming together against the common foe. Then they get taken down one by one because they don't fully support each other, and in the end the Empire rules everything.

Quote from: Anaris on October 24, 2012, 01:56:59 PM
The same story you get throughout BM and real history. The Mighty Empire (whether it's Evil or not is likely to depend on your point of view) invades the Land of Several Smaller Nations, which then quarrel about how best to fight back against the Empire rather than simply coming together against the common foe. Then they get taken down one by one because they don't fully support each other, and in the end the Empire rules everything.

This is so true, and as the Cylons says: This has all happened before and this will all happen again.

We really made big effort to gain support to jump on CE. It was really long negotiations, and even Darka was not sure if we should get on this mess. But finally everybody agreed that we should do this. For Darka last drop was when CE threatened that they will attack us if we continue defend Eston.

At beginning, things looked pretty good. We knew that it would not be easy to push on CE, especially if we try to keep Talerium out from this. I had hopes that Eston would eventually sign peace with Talerium and could join our front against Coria/Tara/CE, but they signed peace with wrong realm :P Things went real messy for Darka. It was reallyl close that i didnt pull out from war and sitout and watch... But Coria was pissing off me so much that i thought we should try to atleast beat em down. News from south were getting desperate, those Abbies down there simply cant be trusted.

Coria was again doing all kind of BS proposals and since i trust them as much i trust Abbies at south, i was not willing to sign their weird treaties, which were after all BS like i suspected. They were just buying more time. I'm still finding hard to believe how Eston finds them worth of ally... but i bet they do same towards us, how we can be "allies" with Talerium.

But like said earlier, now there will be evaluation time for how strong our friendships are, will Talerium keep treaty and will Coria keep their treaty.

Also, important factor is will BoM come to aid on that front, or do they keep helping MI.

Quote from: jaune on October 24, 2012, 03:01:55 PM
But like said earlier, now there will be evaluation time for how strong our friendships are, will Talerium keep treaty and will Coria keep their treaty.

Also, important factor is will BoM come to aid on that front, or do they keep helping MI.

As long as the NA has allies that are enemies to it's own alliance members, CE+Tara will win.  Until that situation changes, nothing else will change and the holy roman empire will slowly expand northward.

Quote from: GoldPanda on October 24, 2012, 09:19:38 AM
CE made plenty of peace overtures to both Darka and Eston when the war was stalemated. It seems to me that Kerwin and Kostaja are only interested in peace when they are losing, and that they will be back at CE's throat as soon as CE's advantage is gone. Please tell me exactly why CE's leadership should agree to a peace now. Just how stupid do you think they are?

And many nobles in CE still remember Kerwin's gloating and boasts when the war first started (when the map did not look at all like what Sonya posted.) A little humility, and a bit of decency toward one's enemies on Kerwin's part, would have been remembered, and would have gone a long way toward helping him now.

As the Strombranians say, "Ut sementem feceris ita metes."

No where did I say the Cagilans should make peace. I said it was terrifying to realize they are obviously not interested in it at this point and are not even willing to respond to messages.

What is insulting though is that we've asked for their TERMS. They won't even give us surrender terms.

Also, I have no idea what "gloating" you are talking about on Kerwin's part. Kerwin wasn't even in power when the war first started.

Quote from: Azerax on October 24, 2012, 04:02:57 PM
As long as the NA has allies that are enemies to it's own alliance members, CE+Tara will win.  Until that situation changes, nothing else will change and the holy roman empire will slowly expand northward.

Heh, if i would say "Suck my socks!" to Talerium and Eston would do the same for Coria, i bet expansion wouldnt be slow then :)

Quote from: jaune on October 24, 2012, 05:31:44 PM
Heh, if i would say "Suck my socks!" to Talerium and Eston would do the same for Coria, i bet expansion wouldnt be slow then :)

There's only one way to find out  :D

Quote from: jaune on October 24, 2012, 05:31:44 PM
Heh, if i would say "Suck my socks!" to Talerium and Eston would do the same for Coria, i bet expansion wouldnt be slow then :)

If you did that at the beginning of the war, the NA + SA destroy the Central Alliance.

If you do it now, the Northern Alliance will be quickly devastated.

This looks like fun for Darka. Bottomless reserves, good recruits, good military overall but a considerably shorter distance to the front. :)

Quote from: Perth on October 24, 2012, 05:15:23 PM
What is insulting though is that we've asked for their TERMS. They won't even give us surrender terms.

Also, I have no idea what "gloating" you are talking about on Kerwin's part. Kerwin wasn't even in power when the war first started.

Kerwin was most definitely King by the time the Carelians took Skalk. That was when the gloating began and the boasts were made. You might not remember but I certainly do. I'll give you a hint: As I recall, it contained the phrases "Eaglin" and "three months".

What was insulting was how Kerwin demanded CE's unconditional surrender. What was insulting was how, even after the war was stalemated, Kerwin still refused to walk away without the Duchy of Eaglin. Eaglin.

Kerwin had plenty of chances to walk away from this war. I can assure you that Kerwin would only be further insulted by the terms that CE would offer now. And unlike Kerwin, CE's leadership avoids insulting their enemies as much as possible. We're polite like that.

Quote from: GoldPanda on October 24, 2012, 08:51:39 PM
CE's leadership avoids insulting their enemies as much as possible.

This is true, oddly enough.  They frequently insult second or third tier allies, but I honestly can't actually remember insults from CE (not counting those quickly quashed by the Marshal or General or what not) when fighting them.

Quote from: LilWolf on October 23, 2012, 12:07:43 PM


Like the ruler of Tara who has complained endlessly about Darka looting his lands and called us dishonorable etc. because of it? Funny he had no problems with it when our army was on his side :)

All you need is a silly person as a ruler to get silly tantrums.

They've had tough times. Tara could easily have been killed had some choices been made in another way years ago. Sadly, can't change the past.
[/quote
I'm sure that Tara did not whine much about lootings. They actually whined about rapings. They don't like  much when their blood would be weakened by the Northern Horde.. well  ,main reason was that Darka didn't declare war first. Cowardly actions shouldn't be praised.
And I remember time when we saved Darka from GB. Main reason for that was to keep some balance on Atamara same goes to my previous actions towards Eston, quite Long time ago. Now  thefuture will tell what will happen and I don't mind if Eston would be burned.

Mayby the same reason Taran's "smoked out" all those who had Darkan relatives out from Tara, including few of those who were there when Tara was born, one of them used to be Tyrant of Tara. Except ofcourse Dela Cruz family who was spying Darka for Tara.

It was annoying, as IC and OOCly aswell. Both Hangman and I kept our characters out from army and only participated internal issues, but still we were all the time questioned. Urpo had it enough when he saw Jose "knowing" all Darkan movements and he informed his brother about the Juan who were leaking information and left from Tara.

But Tara still have something what KK respects, much of it has faded... but there is still something.

Quote from: GoldPanda on October 24, 2012, 08:51:39 PM
Kerwin was most definitely King by the time the Carelians took Skalk. That was when the gloating began and the boasts were made. You might not remember but I certainly do. I'll give you a hint: As I recall, it contained the phrases "Eaglin" and "three months".

What was insulting was how Kerwin demanded CE's unconditional surrender. What was insulting was how, even after the war was stalemated, Kerwin still refused to walk away without the Duchy of Eaglin. Eaglin.

Kerwin had plenty of chances to walk away from this war. I can assure you that Kerwin would only be further insulted by the terms that CE would offer now. And unlike Kerwin, CE's leadership avoids insulting their enemies as much as possible. We're polite like that.

.... who are you IC?

I definitely do not remember ever demanding the "unconditional surrender" of CE. Hell, I don't even remember hardly ever even talking to CE. Most of my time and letters were spent trying to pull the alliance together.

And what is so absurd about Eaglin? It is the closest Cagilan city to us, of course that would be our target. I don't understand your emphasis there.

I am honestly bewildered by this perception you have of Kerwin.

Quote from: Perth on October 24, 2012, 11:10:24 PM
.... who are you IC?

I'm pretty sure that's the Kinsey family.

Quote from: Eirikr on October 25, 2012, 12:12:50 AM
I'm pretty sure that's the Kinsey family.

... I don't even know who that is.

Quote from: Perth on October 25, 2012, 12:37:27 AM
... I don't even know who that is.

Enri Kinsey, General of the CE and Jean Luc Kinsey, Marshal of Coria's only army.

Quote from: Eirikr on October 25, 2012, 02:12:33 AM
Enri Kinsey, General of the CE and Jean Luc Kinsey, Marshal of Coria's only army.

In other words, the person who has personal control of over half of the military which has been arrayed against the northern alliance during this war. If you take into account he's the most respected allied general in the federation, he essentially determines federation military policy on his own.

In other words, he is the one that has cause CE to "win" Atamara. (With help of course)

Quote from: Perth on October 24, 2012, 11:10:24 PM
.... who are you IC?

I definitely do not remember ever demanding the "unconditional surrender" of CE. Hell, I don't even remember hardly ever even talking to CE. Most of my time and letters were spent trying to pull the alliance together.

And what is so absurd about Eaglin? It is the closest Cagilan city to us, of course that would be our target. I don't understand your emphasis there.

I am honestly bewildered by this perception you have of Kerwin.

I would be very surprised if Kerwin was rude to anyone, I don't think he knows how.  He's the essence of political correctness.

From what I remember, war broke up, King Jean tried diplomacy for a couple months then stepped down and Kerwin spent his time rallying allies while we fought Coira.  When we attacked Coira's capital, he may have asked them to surrender, CE was so far south fighting other realms our only focus was Coira.

Anyway, I really can't picture it (Kerwin being rude).

Quote from: Azerax on October 25, 2012, 02:53:59 AM
I would be very surprised if Kerwin was rude to anyone, I don't think he knows how.  He's the essence of political correctness.

From what I remember, war broke up, King Jean tried diplomacy for a couple months then stepped down and Kerwin spent his time rallying allies while we fought Coira.  When we attacked Coira's capital, he may have asked them to surrender, CE was so far south fighting other realms our only focus was Coira.

Anyway, I really can't picture it (Kerwin being rude).

Thank you.

Hell, I'm pretty sure most of Eston's power elite pretty much think Kerwin is a weak, limp-wristed wussy who can't stand up to anyone or make any right decisions regarding the direction of our foreign policy. ever. lol.

Quote from: Eirikr on October 25, 2012, 02:12:33 AM
Enri Kinsey, General of the CE and Jean Luc Kinsey, Marshal of Coria's only army.

Gotcha. Never corresponded with either of those characters, obviously.

Of course I do know the Kinsey in D'Hara though.

Main reason why CE and Tara stick together is trust between them.  Respect must be earned. You need to make long term plans and keep your promises even it would hurt your own realm.

Now,there are only couple of realms who have old " rulers ". Darka,BoM,Talerium and Tara. They have basic line how to work with every situation.Those realms can be trusted as they are not ready to sell their principles. CE isn't that stable at all. Their Senate is the main key cause once they got new PM they all will try to achieve something new, and that might cause troubles. Realms with stable leadership will have better possibilities to gain something. Example BoM could easily be a major force, if they just wanted it but that would mean end of their current playstyle.

- Federation was once very near to explode due PM samuel and his General and their very bad policy.

-Northern invasion was almost a success when they declared war against CE but there were 2 Nobles left who actually kept Old Lady alive when      those who were in the  lead faded away.

You can beat this federation quite easily but you need time and hard work. You won't beat them just for fun !

Case Hangman was the most difficult decision I have ever made and I'm not proud of it but due his absence I had to do that .Normally I wouldn't been waiting for a month . And in that day something really died.

Quote from: Perth on October 25, 2012, 04:49:53 AM
Thank you.
Hell, I'm pretty sure most of Eston's power elite pretty much think Kerwin is a weak, limp-wristed wussy who can't stand up to anyone or make any right decisions regarding the direction of our foreign policy. ever. lol.

Now I remember where I know that name from! Hearing your discription of the spineless maggot seems to have helped my memory somewhat :)

Quote from: DamnTaffer on October 25, 2012, 02:32:22 PM
Now I remember where I know that name from! Hearing your discription of the spineless maggot seems to have helped my memory somewhat :)

This right here.  Our own allies insulting each other. (I'm assuming from your other posts that you are in the NA since you don't have your family page linked in your profile).

Quote from: Azerax on October 25, 2012, 03:00:35 PM
This right here.  Our own allies insulting each other. (I'm assuming from your other posts that you are in the NA since you don't have your family page linked in your profile).

I think he's in BoM.

Quote from: Azerax on October 25, 2012, 03:00:35 PM
This right here.  Our own allies insulting each other. (I'm assuming from your other posts that you are in the NA since you don't have your family page linked in your profile).

If it makes you feel any better the Central Alliance insults each other all of the time Never.

***
Sorry time to interupt this broadcast for some important information.
***

The Central Alliance is unified, and we gather strength from pure cooperation and support at all junctures. Our leaders have no disagreement on how to proceed with this war and we never come into conflict over our plans and use of allied lands and armies. In addition, our generals are the best on Atamara, our nobles the most honorable, and our cookies taste the best.

This message paid for and broadcast by gold taken from dead Northern Alliance members.

Quote from: Zadar on October 25, 2012, 05:31:59 AM
once they got new PM they all will try to achieve something new

Once this war is over, we are going to invade the aliens in space. I know my Senate will approve it and will grant funds. hehe...

Do you think that it is possible? FYI, CE is one of the most stable governments.

1. You don't know what will happen if KK, Ottar etc die. You don't know whether the promises will be kept by new Kings and Dictators. But, CE will behave in the same manner irrespective of how many PMs change.

2. Senate will never allow bad PMs to exist more than a month. Whereas bad Kings may rule for ages in other realms eventually leading to realm's death/decreased influence.

Indeed, if those old ones will die who knows what will happen. But a month is really long time to make some troubles to diplomacy. It has been done in the past. It can happen again.

Senate don't have real power ,they do basically know only what others will tell to them .

When this war of all mothers started. whole Ce was really messed up. Current PM who started it left and only couple of senators really know what was going on. Ce's history has shown that time to time PM's will try to do something different. But I will not reveal those names exept Samuel who was real disaster   ;)

Characters can't just keel over and die of old age, though. There is some aging worked in, yes, but it doesn't kill you yet.

I'm pretty sure Darkan & Talerium alliance iwould be on fragile status if their rulers changed. Atleast here in Darka there is many people who would be cheering to see us attack Talerium... well atleast they had that opinion year ago, now i doubt many of Darkans see that an option :)

Talerium had diffrent ruler for a while, luckily he was a good man and no troubles rised.

About Kerwin, indeed he dont have a much of "warrior value" at eyes of KK.... but i must say he is not giving up some things very easily. KK would be rich... hmm... he is rich, but even richer if he would have gotten 1 gold coin for every message where Kerwin asked us to attack Talerium :)

I'm in CE & Tara and I'm very proud with the situation  :)

Quote from: Azerax on October 25, 2012, 02:53:59 AM
I would be very surprised if Kerwin was rude to anyone, I don't think he knows how.  He's the essence of political correctness.

From what I remember, war broke up, King Jean tried diplomacy for a couple months then stepped down and Kerwin spent his time rallying allies while we fought Coira.  When we attacked Coira's capital, he may have asked them to surrender, CE was so far south fighting other realms our only focus was Coira.

Anyway, I really can't picture it (Kerwin being rude).

Of course, the gloating, the boasts, the demands, all were phrased in the most polite terms possible. It just makes it ten times worse. Imagine someone insinuating horrible things about your mother, while referring to her as "the lady" the entire time.

Well if Kerwin thinks he deserves Eaglin for fighting CE to a stalemate, I wonder how many duchies CE should demand when Eston is finally defeated.

Quote from: Perth on October 25, 2012, 04:49:53 AM
What is Panda?  ???

The link to my family page is on my profile...  :'(

Maybe you'll remember me after I remove a few of your duchies.  >:(

23 dislike the current situation. 21 are fine with it. Current count. Majority of those who are fine with it are part of CE-Tara Federation, which doesn't come as much of a surprise to me.

Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on October 26, 2012, 10:20:14 AM
23 dislike the current situation. 21 are fine with it. Current count. Majority of those who are fine with it are part of CE-Tara Federation, which doesn't come as much of a surprise to me.

17 of people who actually play on Atamara are fine with the situation, vs. 15 who aren't. I don't see why there's so many non-AT people who whine about the situation...

Quote from: Chénier on October 26, 2012, 11:00:38 AM
17 of people who actually play on Atamara are fine with the situation, vs. 15 who aren't. I don't see why there's so many non-AT people who whine about the situation...

Mayby they are ex Atamara players?

Quote from: jaune on October 26, 2012, 11:54:15 AM
Mayby they are ex Atamara players?

Still, they don't play there, won't do them no good if the situation changes, nor any bad if it doesn't.

Quote from: Chénier on October 26, 2012, 12:53:12 PM
Still, they don't play there, won't do them no good if the situation changes, nor any bad if it doesn't.

Except that they might play there if the continent's diplomacy wasn't deadlocked the way it is.

There is many realms which have been destroyed/taken over by federation which propably have driven off many characters/players from Atamara who dislike the situation. Who could consider coming back if things change. There was boost of characters on Atamara when war started(atleast Darka). But now more and more inactivity & emmigrations happens, prolly cause of boredom.

-Jaune

Quote from: jaune on October 26, 2012, 11:54:15 AM
Mayby they are ex Atamara players?

Jep, we destroyed their homes and they can't sleep. This is their revenge..  ;)

Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on October 26, 2012, 10:20:14 AM
23 dislike the current situation. 21 are fine with it. Current count. Majority of those who are fine with it are part of CE-Tara Federation, which doesn't come as much of a surprise to me.

I'm in Eston and I'm fine with it.  It is, afterall, a game.

Heh, I'm in Darka and i dont like the situation, but i'm still fine with it... I dont see this much of a problem after all. Time will show how things will turn.

KK have dreamed to retire for a while, but then decided to continue when this war started... i'm very tempted to step down and sit back and watch how things go... but i fear some hothead would jump on the throne and mess things even more :D (if possible).

I was the one who pushed Darka on this mess, i will be the one who try to pull us out from it... would be sad to be remembered  as ruler who destroyed Darka :)

Quote from: jaune on October 26, 2012, 02:31:22 PM
Heh, I'm in Darka and i dont like the situation, but i'm still fine with it... I dont see this much of a problem after all. Time will show how things will turn.

KK have dreamed to retire for a while, but then decided to continue when this war started... i'm very tempted to step down and sit back and watch how things go... but i fear some hothead would jump on the throne and mess things even more :D (if possible).

I was the one who pushed Darka on this mess, i will be the one who try to pull us out from it... would be sad to be remembered  as ruler who destroyed Darka :)

Not if you do it with style!  Become a Tyrant and start raging against anyone who looks at your sideways and make sure it's all documented on the wiki!

A major part of why I am not on Atamara is the CE federation. I was there a year or so ago, and from what I saw, the place was a mess. You were either in CE, or you were getting roflstomped.

Quote from: Chénier on October 26, 2012, 11:00:38 AM
17 of people who actually play on Atamara are fine with the situation, vs. 15 who aren't. I don't see why there's so many non-AT people who whine about the situation...

Because we used to play there, but left because of the situation.

Quote from: GoldPanda on October 26, 2012, 08:24:42 AM
Maybe you'll remember me after I remove a few of your duchies.  >:(

I would say that would do the trick...

But let's avoid that, can't we be friends?  ;D

Quote from: Zadar on October 25, 2012, 07:49:03 PM
Senate don't have real power ,they do basically know only what others will tell to them

I know that you don't like PMs who can have different opinion (although much more better than that of yours  :P). But, now you have started defaming and complaining about CE's Imperial Senate in public forums too? If you are not happy, then take it IC and face me in the Senate. We will see then the true power of Lords and Ladies.

Otherwise, stick to the topic and lets enjoy how awesome are CE-Tara union and our victories. Let others envy us. Don't show the differences in public forums  :)

Quote from: Elegant on October 26, 2012, 07:24:28 PM
I know that you don't like PMs who can have different opinion (although much more better than that of yours  :P). But, now you have started defaming and complaining about CE's Imperial Senate in public forums too? If you are not happy, then take it IC and face me in the Senate. We will see then the true power of Lords and Ladies.

Otherwise, stick to the topic and lets enjoy how awesome are CE-Tara union and our victories. Let others envy us. Don't show the differences in public forums  :)

: I don't care opinions from others as long as they don't directly harm CE or it's relations.. And who says that I'm not happy? We are going almost there where I have wanted us to be. And  I don't have any differencies with anyone or anything. 

Quote from: Lorgan on October 26, 2012, 12:59:31 PM
Except that they might play there if the continent's diplomacy wasn't deadlocked the way it is.

There are other continents to play on. Having your way on any given continent isn't a right.

Eh, but if someone asks their opinion at forums about the situation, they dont have right to answer?

That argument can be used on anycase... "There are other realms to play if you dont like to recruit infantry!" ".... if you dont want to play courtier!" "... if you dont like that friendly split" etc.

Quote from: jaune on October 27, 2012, 08:44:14 AM
Eh, but if someone asks their opinion at forums about the situation, they dont have right to answer?

That argument can be used on anycase... "There are other realms to play if you dont like to recruit infantry!" ".... if you dont want to play courtier!" "... if you dont like that friendly split" etc.

Those cases are covered by Inalienable Rights. Sadly, "realms that I hate must be killed so that I can have fun" is not one of them. I would make liberal use of it if that was in the IR. ;)

It seems to me that CE is doing the other islands a service, by pushing players onto those islands despite their obviously inferior gameplay.  ;D

Quote from: Chénier on October 27, 2012, 05:28:00 AM
There are other continents to play on. Having your way on any given continent isn't a right.

I don't mind. I enjoy other continents, but like jaune said, the question was asked.
I also didn't vote since the option I'd pick would be to merge two opposing answers. "I'm not on Atamara and I dislike the situation but I'm fine with it."

Indeed, like I said I play on Atamara, there is nothing WRONG with the CE-Tara alliance, but for obvious reasons I don't LIKE it!

I can't deny that the CE players deserve to be where they are, because they have achieved the closest possible thing to "Winning" the game, from a strategy standpoint.

However.  I HATE the idea.  If you're on the outs, it is incredibly hard to get anything done.  I'm not so upset about this latest conflict, because at least it was a fair fight, the NA lost that war because the CE alliance simply communicated better, and used their army better.  They outstrategized us.  That's totally fair

Bloc realms infuriate me when it becomes simply ganging up on one realm.  That's not fun for the attackers, because the war isn't fun it's just a roflstomp.  It's not fun for the defenders because their realm gets destroyed with no chance to defend themselves.

What's the point of playing the game if it's not fun?  Seriously why try to fight CE.  If anyone tries to fight them they will literally go to war with half the continent.  You better hope the rest of the realms join you or your realm is destroyed.  How is that fun at all?  For anyone?

It's really frustrating as a player.  And really boring.  I'd like to find some way to break up bloc realms, but there's only so much a small realm like mine can do.  Maybe I'm just jaded, but I'm definitely not having much fun on Atamara anymore.  Thank god Raoul shook things up for Ithilia.  Or It'd be more of the same for us like it has been for years.

That's been part of my Atamara experience certainly, though some realms appear from the outside to potentially be more interesting internally than others. If I start playing again at some point, I may consider creating a character in CE to see what it's like, and to see if their Republican system allows for better opportunities for shaking things up than I have encountered elsewhere. I also enjoyed my brief stint in Coria before life intervened and took me away from the game for a while.

There's a lot of autocracies on AT, and those that I have been in have generally proven to operate on a small council system where comparatively few characters are given the opportunity to participate in strategy and policy-making. This centralization of power in a handful of individuals in many realms makes overturning the status quo even more difficult. I have been on both the inside (Hammarsett) and the outside (Darka, BoM, Norland, Suville) of such power structures.

Quote from: Geronus on October 31, 2012, 09:39:20 PM
There's a lot of autocracies on AT, and those that I have been in have generally proven to operate on a small council system where comparatively few characters are given the opportunity to participate in strategy and policy-making. This centralization of power in a handful of individuals in many realms makes overturning the status quo even more difficult. I have been on both the inside (Hammarsett) and the outside (Darka, BoM, Norland, Suville) of such power structures.

Thats exactly why I like Carelia, because its not that way despite being a monarchy. We have 15 people in the "Queen's Court" and 7 in the war council. It's not that difficult to get in the queen's court, which enables you to hear about and voice your opinion's on what is going on. War council is a bit harded to get into for obvious reasons but overall it isn't that hard to get to one of the councils, which allows you to partake in strategy and policy-making.

Quote from: Penchant on October 31, 2012, 10:20:55 PM
Thats exactly why I like Carelia, because its not that way despite being a monarchy. We have 15 people in the "Queen's Court" and 7 in the war council. It's not that difficult to get in the queen's court, which enables you to hear about and voice your opinion's on what is going on.

Un hu!

Specially when i'm the only one talking..... Surely will bring a Whip to the next court session!

You guys are mean.... monologues are not fun!

Most realms that have councils are fairly open with who they let in. That's the one thing I liked about Fontan. Each family was allowed to have one member in the Council. Anyone who asked got added.

Quote from: Sonya on November 01, 2012, 12:36:59 AM
Un hu!

Specially when i'm the only one talking..... Surely will bring a Whip to the next court session!

You guys are mean.... monologues are not fun!

You do a fine monologue and a lot of the recent stuff I have already seen plus I don't always have time to write a letter to comment on stuff though I might throw in some comments pretty quickly so it's not a monologue. Also, just because there isn't much participation in the council doesn't mean they can't talk, it's just that most don't.

Quote from: Penchant on November 01, 2012, 02:50:51 AM
You do a fine monologue and a lot of the recent stuff I have already seen plus I don't always have time to write a letter to comment on stuff though I might throw in some comments pretty quickly so it's not a monologue. Also, just because there isn't much participation in the council doesn't mean they can't talk, it's just that most don't.

As long as all the nicely dressed Queen's court bureaucrats remember that in war time it is the General who has the final word. Well, except for the Queen. The oh so old queen who would do very ill to challenge the heroes of Carelia fighting for her domain.

Edit: to stay on topic. I do dislike the CE/Tara federation, for it has reached a critical strength where all further politics on Atamara will revolve around who has CE or Tara or company's support. The gang staying out from other wars is unrealistic simply for it'd be boring to their own nobles, and so we are looking at a couple gangbangs in the future. However, though I dislike the situation, I don't think OOC methods should be used to change it. Those who do not want to RP a world where a central empire runs things can move to a different continent. If we really were SO out of options all players on Atamara could remove their chars, and create new ones in the Empire, eventually creating a demand for internal conflict. They won't, because playing the underdog is so so much fun.

I do play in the CE-Tara federation and I have no problems with things.

People seem to think that war is the only way to fight a realm??? What would be more interesting for outsiders is to try and get spies within the block (just please don't pick OOC methods like having a friend start a account in CE or something) or try to stir trouble within the federation. If you only look at the Suville situation there is already disagreements between/within CE and Tara. Those are things you can and should use to fight the block as well.

Situations like this are always delicate, true. But it is the fun thing for the CE-Tara side to stay strong and fun for the other side to try and ruin the oh so mighty federation. (Be honest, if you'd succeed, wouldn't you brag about it a year later still???)

Personally I believe it was Carelia's decision to turn on Abbington (and Redspan), back when Tara was down to about 4 regions around Foda, that cemented CE's dominance.  From there the three of them (with Talerium protecting the entire North West for years and the Mountains protected the North Central) had the numbers to slowly but surely eliminate Redspan, break up Abbington, destroy Falasan, ASI, to dominate the South.  Then they just had to establish the bumper state of Coria (pushing back errrrr MI or Eston can't recall) to protect the NorthEast.

I wonder if this poll would be done now, would it has same results? Few realms have disappeared from the map after that and few has born.

Balance has turn way more on CE side. Basicly there is only Darka and BoM left against CE/Tara/Suville/Strombran/Caergoth/Coria (Not sure about Realston, Minas Leon, Carelia and not even sure about Eston... and Talerium is a bit question mark too, i guess they wont attack Darka, but no clue if BoM will be on their attack list).

I just wonder what kind of numbers would show now that about 80% of island is under CE coalition.

A few things:

1] Why would you guess they will not attack Darka?
2] The biggest threat to CE's dominance is most likely Tara

Quote from: Quintus Ennius on January 21, 2013, 04:05:57 PM
A few things:

1] Why would you guess they will not attack Darka?
2] The biggest threat to CE's dominance is most likely Tara

The day that Tara directly attacks CE is the day I eat my hat. Sure, they might have some disagreements about the situation in the southeast, but both realms are far too savvy to let something like that get out of hand. At worst, they'd fight each other in someone else's territory while maintaining neutral relations, and to be honest I have a hard time seeing them do even that much. They both have too much to lose to risk attacking each other directly, especially Tara, and Ottar is possibly the most conservative ruler on the entire island. When was the last time you saw Tara do something that broke the mold? So long as Ottar is in charge, Tara will never threaten CE's dominance.

Yeah, I don't see it happening either. The only way I can imagine it is as the result of something the Great Peace on EC that ended with Fontan breaking the Federation with OR and Sirion. Possible, I suppose, if AT gets as boring as it looks like it might.

Well we could always get some religious conflict going ;)

Quote from: Indirik on January 21, 2013, 04:53:11 PM
Yeah, I don't see it happening either. The only way I can imagine it is as the result of something the Great Peace on EC that ended with Fontan breaking the Federation with OR and Sirion. Possible, I suppose, if AT gets as boring as it looks like it might.

I still have doubts. If Ottar believes to have support of say Suville, ML and Darka/BoM in the future they might attempt to claim the hegemony rather than to have to listen to the slow (as they perceive it) imperial Senate.

Quote from: Quintus Ennius on January 21, 2013, 04:05:57 PM
A few things:

1] Why would you guess they will not attack Darka?
2] The biggest threat to CE's dominance is most likely Tara

I would assume Talerium will hold its treaty and not to attack Darka. Carelia also had very good relations and are prolly not feel very fond to attack Darka.  I have no doubts that rest of them could and would attack.

South has also grown strong, very strong. If they can pull their things together, i'm sure they would give helluwa fight for CE & Tara. This time CE & Tara would be without Darkan support, but would have Coria instead... I have my doubts that most of the realms whom they recently spanked are feeling very comfortable to run aid them if south would seek revenge for the old times.

But time will show, I'm surprised to see that i'm happy to see Abbington back, it is pretty much AT's only hope.

Quote from: jaune on January 21, 2013, 06:50:20 PM
But time will show, I'm surprised to see that i'm happy to see Abbington back, it is pretty much AT's only hope.

Give up now if that's true. Suville may have the same geography and fields roughly 25k CS but they are not even close to Abington IMO. That and Suville is a puppet of CE IMO.

Quote from: Geronus on January 21, 2013, 04:50:12 PM
So long as Ottar is in charge, Tara will never threaten CE's dominance.

And there you have the beginnings of a solution ;)

Tara is not the greatest threat to CE's dominance.

But, Ottar is the greatest threat to Tara's dominance.

Quote from: Geronus on January 21, 2013, 04:50:12 PM
The day that Tara directly attacks CE is the day I eat my hat.

This time, I doubt either Merlin or I will tell you to make that hat out of bacon. :(

There is no way that Tara attacks CE.

If Carelia+Caergoth+Suville couldn't beat CE+Tara (who were also being attacked by the North) together, there's much less chance of them doing so successfully (considering Strombran has more or less taken over Carelia, and Eston's surrender).

Quote from: Feylonis on January 21, 2013, 10:43:11 PM
If Carelia+Caergoth+Suville couldn't beat CE+Tara (who were also being attacked by the North) together, there's much less chance of them doing so successfully (considering Strombran has more or less taken over Carelia, and Eston's surrender).

Not exactly true.

Carelia + Caergoth + Suville very probably could have beaten CE + Tara while CE was distracted in the north. The problem wasn't that their armies weren't strong enough to do so. The problem was that the alliance shattered early on in the war effort. If the Southern Alliance had remained united for long enough it is very likely that they would have succeeded in winning.

Quote from: Dante Silverfire on January 21, 2013, 10:48:50 PM
Not exactly true.

Carelia + Caergoth + Suville very probably could have beaten CE + Tara while CE was distracted in the north. The problem wasn't that their armies weren't strong enough to do so. The problem was that the alliance shattered early on in the war effort. If the Southern Alliance had remained united for long enough it is very likely that they would have succeeded in winning.

See! This is all Suville's fault! Caergoth got ko'ed so they couldn't help and Suville looted the eastern border while CE took over the western border. It was a big !@#$-up-Carelia fest.

Quote from: Penchant on January 22, 2013, 01:41:32 AM
See! This is all Suville's fault! Caergoth got ko'ed so they couldn't help and Suville looted the eastern border while CE took over the western border. It was a big !@#$-up-Carelia fest.

So, Suville made a decision that benefited themselves, and then benefited from it.

Nothing to see here folks.

Quote from: Dante Silverfire on January 21, 2013, 10:48:50 PM
Not exactly true.

Carelia + Caergoth + Suville very probably could have beaten CE + Tara while CE was distracted in the north. The problem wasn't that their armies weren't strong enough to do so. The problem was that the alliance shattered early on in the war effort. If the Southern Alliance had remained united for long enough it is very likely that they would have succeeded in winning.

Quote from: Penchant on January 22, 2013, 01:41:32 AM
See! This is all Suville's fault! Caergoth got ko'ed so they couldn't help and Suville looted the eastern border while CE took over the western border. It was a big !@#$-up-Carelia fest.

Everything that happened to Carelia was Carelia's fault. The treaty she signed with Caergoth and Suville was basically a suicide note. We shouldn't have let Leta/Malcolm get away with their outlandish plans in the first place, but there were a few too many folk around with eyes bigger than their bellies.

If anything, it's amazing the Carelia/Caergoth/Suville alliance lasted as long as it did. If Dielo hadn't ghosted in and bought Skalk, the double-cross would have happened sooner. As it was, Caergoth merely blackmailed Carelia for an early handover of Ser'quea. When Suville tried the same with Wayburg, we inexplicably decided we'd fight over it - even though Cagil was already rolling us back on the western front. That's the moment Carelia should have sued for terms and changed sides but sadly Nathan ignored everybody and soldiered on anyway.

Quote from: Revan on January 22, 2013, 02:40:20 AM
Everything that happened to Carelia was Carelia's fault. The treaty she signed with Caergoth and Suville was basically a suicide note. We shouldn't have let Leta/Malcolm get away with their outlandish plans in the first place, but there were a few too many folk around with eyes bigger than their bellies.

If anything, it's amazing the Carelia/Caergoth/Suville alliance lasted as long as it did. If Dielo hadn't ghosted in and bought Skalk, the double-cross would have happened sooner. As it was, Caergoth merely blackmailed Carelia for an early handover of Ser'quea. When Suville tried the same with Wayburg, we inexplicably decided we'd fight over it - even though Cagil was already rolling us back on the western front. That's the moment Carelia should have sued for terms and changed sides but sadly Nathan ignored everybody and soldiered on anyway.

Well allies wanting to get paid early is not exactly our fault and I only remember Suville declaring war for Wayburg, not them ever asking but I was a knight with no political power/not privy to these discussions-I wasn't even playing BM when Serquea was demanded so Caergoth has always looked like the loyal ally in my eyes. If Suville did demand it, I am guessing the higher ups were hoping Suville was bluffing and Nathan went inactive so he was probably not that active to convince otherwise with the Suville issue. But based on what you said Caergoth and Suville basically acted like mercenaries which aren't exactly the most trustworthy when they are worried you might not want to ever pay because you lost so I see your point also.

Suville came up with the original plans to attack CE before Carelia I believe. The deal was that Suville would get Wayburg once Carelia had Skalk and Nida for an X amount of time if I recall correctly. Then sunddenly before any real gains were made they demanded Wayburg and CE supported them in that claim.

Biggest fault was to work with Suville in Carelia's case, but that's hindsight. If Suville had kept fighting we'd be talking differently now...

Actually, Suville demanded Wayburg after Carelia got Skalk and gave away Ser'qea to Caergoth. The fault was at 1) Caergoth for demanding Ser'qea before all the terms of the agreement were fulfilled, 2) Carelia for quickly capitulating to Caergoth's demands, and 3) Suville for not being patient.

Quote from: Feylonis on January 22, 2013, 08:41:19 PM
Actually, Suville demanded Wayburg after Carelia got Skalk and gave away Ser'qea to Caergoth. The fault was at 1) Caergoth for demanding Ser'qea before all the terms of the agreement were fulfilled, 2) Carelia for quickly capitulating to Caergoth's demands, and 3) Suville for not being patient.

This all makes me sad panda. But then again, Suville i guess were not so intrested to send anything to frontlines from the beginning.

Quote from: jaune on January 22, 2013, 09:11:35 PM
This all makes me sad panda. But then again, Suville i guess were not so intrested to send anything to frontlines from the beginning.

I don't ever remember Suville putting a substantial amount to the front though I joined halfway through the war.

Suville's military forces right now are only second to CE. It kind of scares me a bit

Quote from: Radigand on January 23, 2013, 06:40:44 AM
Suville's military forces right now are only second to CE. It kind of scares me a bit

Suville's long term plan, from the very beginning, was to see Abington reborn.  They've been very good at setting up the geographic conditions for that.  We'll see how well they've done setting up the political conditions.

Quote from: Bedwyr on January 23, 2013, 06:43:30 AM
We'll see how well they've done setting up the political conditions.

And what conditions would those be? They pissed off Carelia and Caergoth, and I don't think Tara looks fondly on them either.

Quote from: Radigand on January 23, 2013, 06:50:39 AM
And what conditions would those be? They pissed off Carelia and Caergoth, and I don't think Tara looks fondly on them either.

Impossible to say.  The number of moving pieces in politics at that scale would be difficult for me to judge if I'd been immersed in them for the last couple of years.  As all I know about it is what I've seen on the forums and what a few kind souls have answered for me privately, I can't tell.  Maybe they've made a deal with Tara to split Carelia and Caergoth between them and new colonies.  Maybe the bad blood between them and Caergoth could be set aside for the right price.  Maybe Suville is about to dissolve into a civil war.

Quote from: Bedwyr on January 23, 2013, 07:05:51 AM
Impossible to say.  The number of moving pieces in politics at that scale would be difficult for me to judge if I'd been immersed in them for the last couple of years.  As all I know about it is what I've seen on the forums and what a few kind souls have answered for me privately, I can't tell.  Maybe they've made a deal with Tara to split Carelia and Caergoth between them and new colonies.  Maybe the bad blood between them and Caergoth could be set aside for the right price.  Maybe Suville is about to dissolve into a civil war.

I highly doubt all of those but I am biased as a Carelian.

Situations is what it is but we have to remember that CE did need help from Darka and Eston at the start. without their support in the beginning of " Tara  and Carelia" this wouldn't been possible. If Ce,Darka,Eston,Tara,Carelia would have  couple of different Rulers we might have now a Strong Abington and Co instead.


As long as CE and Tara honours their agreements  I don't see any reasons why they should end their federation. Why they should? They can't rule over entire continent and we all have seen that every Empire will fall.


Realms might be reduced but the game is never lost. It will just get a bit more complicated.

Quote from: Zadar on January 23, 2013, 10:40:18 AM
Situations is what it is but we have to remember that CE did need help from Darka and Eston at the start. without their support in the beginning of " Tara  and Carelia" this wouldn't been possible. If Ce,Darka,Eston,Tara,Carelia would have  couple of different Rulers we might have now a Strong Abington and Co instead.


As long as CE and Tara honours their agreements  I don't see any reasons why they should end their federation. Why they should? They can't rule over entire continent and we all have seen that every Empire will fall.


Realms might be reduced but the game is never lost. It will just get a bit more complicated.

Really? I strongly suspect it's about to get more boring.

Well, CE & realms which they are allied control now 122/197 regions at Atamara.

I disagree that things would become more complicated, i would say they will be less complicated and pretty bored.
But similar situation has happened to Atamara before, when Abington fell. Back then Darka and Eston were counted as allies of CE & Co.

But there was a long, very boring peace time. And now it is kind of even more limiting diplomatic movements. Cause there is always one who is allied with the "Empire" and nobody dares to resist them. If you are small empire friend, you can go to war and big boyz will back you up. If you attack one of the allies of the Empire, you are dead in few weeks after Empire mobilizes its armies. And because everybody is bored, they will jump on gangbangs simply to get some action. So everybody will be uber carefull with their doings.

This will be definately end of "War era" at Atamara for long time. But it is not ended yet. Still not a single word from Coalition about opening discussion with Darka. So there might be few decent battles ahead.. hopefully we wont collapse on first rampage :)

Quote from: jaune on January 23, 2013, 02:43:11 PM
Well, CE & realms which they are allied control now 122/197 regions at Atamara.

Wow. Thanks for that stat, interesting.