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BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: Eirikr on February 26, 2013, 08:40:09 AM
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Title: Voluntary Death Option
Summary: Add a checkbox (perhaps in the Politics page beneath the renaming option or in the Actions page beneath the change class option) that, when checked, allows your character to be susceptible to death from serious wounds, including infiltrator actions and battle wounds without having to be a Hero. Death would still be a chance and not a guarantee. An old age limit can also be set either by default or by a player as an RP tool. The status of being mortal or not would only be visible to the player of that character. By popular demand, the choice to be mortal would be permanent once checked.
Details: A segment of the playerbase believes their character should be capable of dying from the various hazards in the world. Currently, the only way to do this is by becoming a hero, in which case you still cannot generally be killed except for a tiny chance in battle. This allows those characters who do wish to have the capacity for death to have a chance to die. Furthermore, this puts the control in the player's hands and is entirely voluntary. This ensures only players who wish to die by these methods will be affected. This checkbox could also be toggled off at any time should a player have second thoughts. (It has been suggested that this would be supported more as a permanent decision.) The chance of death can be reasonably small, if desired.
Old age death timers (again, entirely optional) provide an alternative to simply deleting or retiring the character. These could be implemented with an input box that accepts an integer. Since age in BM is not directly tied to actual time, force the death to trigger only on natural age growth rather than wounds. (That is, if the death timer is set to 60 and a character aged 59 is wounded and his age jumps to 62, the timer would trigger when the character ages to 63 naturally.) Include reminders to give players an opportunity to change the timer or write a roleplay.
Making the choice to be mortal or not private keeps infiltrators from specifically targeting only characters who are willing to die.
I am woefully ignorant of the coding challenges of this, so my apologies if it is too complex.
Benefits:
- Puts the choice of death in the character's hands, not an infiltrator or other entity's hands, the usual reason for preventing character death.
- Allows for roleplay opportunities surrounding death.
- Makes the infiltrator class potentially more relevant without inherently buffing it.
- Adds a mechanic that is strangely absent without forcing it upon players (in violation of the cited concept of the game).
- Allows non-heroes to die, so one is not necessarily forced into the restrictions of the class. To my knowledge, death is not an advantage.
Possible Exploits:
Players toggle it off when they become aware of an impending assassination attempt. This should not be a problem immortality is already considered the norm.Players may intentionally toggle it on when they become aware of an impending assassination to incite more severe action against the infiltrator's realm or person. In my opinion, this would energize the game and it's not like infiltrators are not already severely punished.
The previous exploits centered around the toggle, which has been dropped. The new list assumes it cannot be toggled.
- Players may RP a martyr's death, despite this being one of the features of the Hero class. This may be countered somewhat by not being announced continent-wide. Honestly, it should be the playerbase's choice as to whom is a martyr; currently some heroes die and are not treated as martyrs. Some aren't even worth the fanfare attached to them as they did some distinctly "unherolike" activities while alive.
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Sure.
Though the people who will use will be the ones who would already be willing to kill (pause/delete) their character in an RP anyways. And those who won't use it will be the ones who sit around with 80+ year old characters and do nothing with them already.
So I dunno.
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Precisely the point.
It has been stated in several other threads that characters should not be subject to involuntary death, especially in circumstances where it is the result of a somewhat random event. This is an attempt to work within that paradigm to put the choice in the hands of the individual character while still embracing the communal storytelling of BattleMaster. Perhaps I want to see how much impact my character can have before he dies? Maybe I want to place a check on myself so I don't get into a position of power, become complacent and have few ways to be removed. Personally, I do wish my characters were more likely to die (then again, I haven't had one die yet)... It would make me feel like there is some danger to my actions.
I've always felt like the message for deleting a character kind of breaks the atmosphere for a character's RP'd death. Seeing a beautiful RP and then "So-and-so has deleted his character Such-and-such." is kind of a sloppy way to do it. On top of that, you are not allowed to send messages while seriously wounded, so roleplayed deaths often include some reconciliation of that.
One other thing I like about it is that you can act arrogant when someone fails to kill you. I used to do this until I realized it was impossible to die via infiltrator actions... It lost its fun. Now, I just politely ask the judge to ban him, try to make another realm accountable (or disown the noble) and execute him on the second pass. Without the danger, my responses are just so... mechanical and political. I know it wouldn't have mattered much if he succeeded, but it's the right thing to do to make his life hard since he bothered trying.
Oh, I also forgot to add that only the player is privy to whether or not he is killable. This further guarantees the player's total control over their mortality. I have updated the request.
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This has been often proposed, and I've always supported, and I still do.
Though the people who will use will be the ones who would already be willing to kill (pause/delete) their character in an RP anyways.
The problem with killing your character in an RP is that you get to decide after the fact. I don't want to decide my character may be get killed, there is no tension in there. I want an infiltrator to have killed him, fair and square.
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Ah, one more thing I just thought of... It is common for a noble to say "I would die for my realm!", but not necessarily be a hero. As a result, this is impossible. I think it would add to the game to be able to cause real casualties in war, allowing the devout nobles to make good on their promise and the aggressor force to potentially do real damage to a nation's nobles. It's always bothered me that a realm's nobility usually just changes realms when their original realm is destroyed. There should be a more elegant option to "go down with the ship".
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I love this idea. I would prefer the option to be selected at character creation and a semi-random death age to be assigned when the character is created but would take mortality in other forms as well. This would be cool. Super cool with plus seven to coolness besides!
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I would prefer the option to be selected at character creation
Why? Characters are often little defined at creation time; it's later that you can flesh them out and, depending on history in your realm/island, you may decide to check that box.
I know I would check it for some of my characters, but not all, and I could not have taken that decision at character creation time.
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Like I mentioned, it really is not terribly important. I would like mortality in most any form. I simply prefer to have the selection be permanent cor that character - if the selection is made during or after the creation process is less important. I guess I simply can not imagine why I would want to get to know a character before deciding to make him mortal or not. If my mortal character ends up being my favorite, that is fine by me! I stress that it terribly important though. The only benefit of choosing mortality at character creation and making said choice permanent is that it may mitigate the potential abuses listed some. I stress that the implementation details do not terribly concerning to me. Even if implemented in the way originally suggested I would simply check the box on all characters then forget the box exists. All too simple.
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If I could, I would do all my characters mortal!
I hope they could die in battles, duels, killed by infiltrators, of old age, and even of illness (or maybe poisoned?) or accidents (natural or provoked)... This don't mean to make a carnage of noblemen, but to give some temporary nature and risk to the noble life. As hey are now, they are almost demigods!
And yes, I could RP this, as I could do with ALL things (battles and duels and taxes and everything), but I don't want to chose 'Hey, I'm going to die in this battle.' I want the battle to KILL me! ;D
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Last time this was proposed, it wasn't something you could switch on and off, but rather a decision you made once for your character. If, at any time, you check the "I am mortal" box, that's it, no going back.
I liked that version better. Less game-y.
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Last time this was proposed, it wasn't something you could switch on and off, but rather a decision you made once for your character. If, at any time, you check the "I am mortal" box, that's it, no going back.
I liked that version better. Less game-y.
I like this idea better as well. Shouldn't be able to toggle it.
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If this is done, then what is the point of the hero class?
Wouldn't a better way to do this same thing just be to make the hero class not prevent you from also choosing another class?
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If this is done, then what is the point of the hero class?
Wouldn't a better way to do this same thing just be to make the hero class not prevent you from also choosing another class?
The hero class is much more than just the chance to die in battle.
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I like this idea better as well. Shouldn't be able to toggle it.
I would prefer the toggle. I don't know whether or not I would do this with my characters, but I do know that more people will try it out if they don't have to be stuck with it.
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I would prefer the toggle. I don't know whether or not I would do this with my characters, but I do know that more people will try it out if they don't have to be stuck with it.
But are you really trying it out if you don't actually, ya know, die?
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But are you really trying it out if you don't actually, ya know, die?
That sounds like a life slogan.
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I love this idea. I would prefer the option to be selected at character creation and a semi-random death age to be assigned when the character is created but would take mortality in other forms as well. This would be cool. Super cool with plus seven to coolness besides!
Just check the box the day you create the character.
If this is done, then what is the point of the hero class?
Wouldn't a better way to do this same thing just be to make the hero class not prevent you from also choosing another class?
I'd thought about that, but the Hero class does have other significant differences. For one, a Hero contributes a small amount of CS to your unit. He is also able to tell tales and gather small numbers of recruits for free. Am I missing anything?
Last time this was proposed, it wasn't something you could switch on and off, but rather a decision you made once for your character. If, at any time, you check the "I am mortal" box, that's it, no going back.
I liked that version better. Less game-y.
I do like that option better, but ever time I see character death mentioned, Tom is always super resistant to making it permanent or out of the player's control. I figured the option to switch it whenever doesn't ultimately change how the game currently works and, as Perth noted, most of the people who would be interested in checking the box in the first place are the kind of people who aren't likely to abuse it. I know there will be an exception (where someone decides to toggle it every other letter they receive that is a threat and then resolved), but if it doesn't effectively change how the game works already, I don't see that really mattering much.
By the way, any chance you can point me toward the previous requests? I had assumed it was proposed before, but I didn't see it in the list of frequently rejected ideas.
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But are you really trying it out if you don't actually, ya know, die?
That's like saying did you really chance yourself with disease if you put yourself in an environment that puts you at increased risk but later leave. You still did the risk. If did that for a year and never died, then decided this character was too valuable too lose so easily, I did try it out as I could have been killed during that year but didn't happen.
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This is interesting to me on a beer induced level. I would toggle it on a character, and I like not being able to turn it off. That character now has a greater chance of dying, so I would play them a bit more dramatically. You would have a finite amount of time to make your mark, and you would know it. This is a great idea.
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I like this option and would probably use it for all my characters. If the option wasn't a permanent choice, maybe have a cool down like with class changes? so if you make your character mortal then you couldn't change it for a week or two at least.
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If this feature is accepted, mortality will not be toggled. It will be a permanent choice. I do not believe toggle mortality is being considered.
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I would not support a toggle. It should be a permanent, irrevocable choice.
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The people have spoken. I would accept a change to the feature request to have it be permanent. I'll edit it later today.
Should old age be permanent as well? I feel like it shouldn't be linked directly in that you shouldn't be forced to choose it if you don't want to, since it is a 100% chance of death at that age. I'm not sure if I care whether it can be changed down the road. Maybe shortened, but not increased?
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I would not support a toggle. It should be a permanent, irrevocable choice.
That already exists, it's called the Hero Subclass.
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That already exists, it's called the Hero Subclass.
This has been discussed many times before. The point is to play a killable trader or diplomat or infiltrator. Some characters are just not heroic at all.
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This has been discussed many times before. The point is to play a killable trader or diplomat or infiltrator. Some characters are just not heroic at all.
Not just that, but to enable mortality in all situations, not just in battle.
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Not just that, but to enable mortality in all situations, not just in battle.
This, to me, is the vital (aha, pun) point.
The defense has been raised that it's a small fraction of players who think like I do; this provides for that and doesn't force anyone to do it. There's already the vocal bunch on the forums that would get the benefit and I can see others who don't use the forums wanting to jump on.
I do admit that I'm fairly sure it'd be a complex addition; I'm willing to concede it may be more trouble than benefit, but that's something to let the coders decide, no?
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If this is going to be a permanent choice, the bare minimum that can be done is to allow them to toggle it for X amount of time, where I prefer a week. It has to be able to be toggled for a certain amount of time, otherwise its people getting screwed over because of a mis-click.
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If this is going to be a permanent choice, the bare minimum that can be done is to allow them to toggle it for X amount of time, where I prefer a week. It has to be able to be toggled for a certain amount of time, otherwise its people getting screwed over because of a mis-click.
I can't see this ever being implemented as a single unguarded click from any common page. Most likely it would either be a checkbox under Paperwork, or a page under Actions describing the choice that then has a second link to click to actually do it.
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I like the proposed permanent mortality option. I can understand that the Hero class was a kind of segway into mortal characters, but it's too limiting IMO. Old age, infiltrators, torture, and battles should all be potentially deadly. The Hero class would still be just as viable if they weren't the only martyrs. Plus, disconnecting mortality and the Hero class would help with people who want to change profession.
I wouldn't put this in high priority, but I would say it's something worth thinking about.
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I agree. The Hero class gives mortality but it is too limited for my taste. I would like a timer on my character once XX years are reached, he dies. I want to be vulnerable to death by any wound that is or gets bad enough regardless of source. I want to have mortal characters of whatever class. This would be very awesome and the hero subclass just does not meet these requirements!
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Old age, infiltrators, torture, and battles should all be potentially deadly.
To my knowledge, you cannot be wounded through torture. While it may be something to do down the road, I think the cases where you already get injured are a good starting point. That way, another check can be placed into the existing wound code.
I will say, however, that I feel like a Hero should always remain a Hero. It's not a profession, it's a lifestyle. They can still be martyrs; other deaths wouldn't likely be announced to the entire continent like a Hero. On top of that, not always is a death used as a rallying call.
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Maybe the 'torture' option should be divided as well for this.
1) Torture for information
2) Torture until death
Second one to kill characters with mortality option on ;)
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Maybe the 'torture' option should be divided as well for this.
1) Torture for information
2) Torture until death
Second one to kill characters with mortality option on ;)
With that second option, there should be a large chance to fail. Otherwise being imprisoned is a death sentence for mortal characters. I know I'd take a chance to kill anyone who wound up in my dungeon.
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With that second option, there should be a large chance to fail. Otherwise being imprisoned is a death sentence for mortal characters. I know I'd take a chance to kill anyone who wound up in my dungeon.
I think this kind of 'behaviour' would cost to the Judge a lot of H/P! To torture and/or kill a nobleman in a dungeon would be something very serious... not everyday occurrence.
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Maybe the 'torture' option should be divided as well for this.
1) Torture for information
2) Torture until death
Second one to kill characters with mortality option on ;)
I think it's interesting for sure, but should be a second feature request if this passes at all.
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As long as torture adds to age, it's effect on mortal characters would be felt as it pushes them to that magic death number more rapidly...
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I would prefer that whether or not a character has mortality enabled is hidden from everyone else. I.e. you can't tell if someone has mortality enabled for their character. That way no one gets special treatment. If someone dies when the infil stabs them... well, that's the point of stabbing them, isn't it?
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I would like to see a Honor and Prestige bonus for selecting permanent mortality. Even with cautious play, a mortal character probably isn't going to get too high up there. Something like 7 Honor and 3 Prestige to help get them close to being able to take lord positions and courtier/trader class. Basically the equivalent of 1 good battle. There should be some kind of rewarding feature to entice people to try it.
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No bonus for it. It's a completely OOC game mechanic. There should not be any IC bonuses for doing it.
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No bonus for it. It's a completely OOC game mechanic. There should not be any IC bonuses for doing it.
I'm not sure how you see character death as OOC. I'm suggesting a nearly insignificant bump so a mortal character can experience a few classes and maybe even a nice position before ingloriously dying against a monster horde before seeing anything outside of vanilla knight.
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I'm not sure how you see character death as OOC. I'm suggesting a nearly insignificant bump so a mortal character can experience a few classes and maybe even a nice position before ingloriously dying against a monster horde before seeing anything outside of vanilla knight.
That's why it is only voluntary. To experience that, you should not click the button too early. You should wait until your character is established and you are sure his death would have meaning, then you click the button.
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If you want benefits, become a Hero.
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If you want benefits, become a Hero.
Indeed, that class is designed that way.
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I'm not sure how you see character death as OOC. I'm suggesting a nearly insignificant bump so a mortal character can experience a few classes and maybe even a nice position before ingloriously dying against a monster horde before seeing anything outside of vanilla knight.
A character dying is, indeed, an IC event. However, the choice of being mortal or immortal is an OOC choice the player makes.
Also, I don't feel your reasoning provides any real justification for the bonus you're wanting. Get into two battles, and you'll almost certainly have enough honor and prestige to hold any office or government position. If you want to try different classes, then you'll have to survive long enough to earn them. No free passes.
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If you want benefits, become a Hero.
Exactly. This request is a response to those who have asked for the capability for their characters to die, not to create another risk/reward system. I guarantee this change would be instantly rejected if it were a fundamental change to the way the game is played. As it is written, if no players participate in it, the game does not change at all. The incentive to do it comes from the player and the player only.
Also, Indirik, I think I included that it would be private information. Sharing it would also fundamentally alter the game, especially for infils. As has been stated numerous times, infils were not created for the purpose of killing nobles. A kill, even with this option, should come as a surprise. Potentially a horrific one (RP: "I... I didn't mean to kill him... Oh god, what have I done?"), though players are free to RP as they wish.
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Also, Indirik, I think I included that it would be private information. Sharing it would also fundamentally alter the game, especially for infils. As has been stated numerous times, infils were not created for the purpose of killing nobles. A kill, even with this option, should come as a surprise. Potentially a horrific one (RP: "I... I didn't mean to kill him... Oh god, what have I done?"), though players are free to RP as they wish.
I completely agree with this. I was responding primarily to someone else who posted that you could get different options when dealing with someone who had this option enabled. i.e. you could select "Torture" or "Torture to death", or something like that. There should be no way for someone else to know about the player's choice in this.
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I completely agree with this. I was responding primarily to someone else who posted that you could get different options when dealing with someone who had this option enabled. i.e. you could select "Torture" or "Torture to death", or something like that. There should be no way for someone else to know about the player's choice in this.
Oh, very good call. I hadn't even thought about that. I definitely agree it shouldn't be discoverable unless the player makes it known; even then, it should be more tasteful than "Hey guys, I can die, so go ahead and give it a shot!" Since it's only a chance and it could happen at any time, there should be little reason to mention it unless you're nearing the old age marker.
On an unrelated note, does a Hero's death give the family a fame point? I'm thinking of expressly noting that a death in this manner does not give you fame or anything.
Also, the feature request has been updated.
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On an unrelated note, does a Hero's death give the family a fame point? I'm thinking of expressly noting that a death in this manner does not give you fame or anything.
There are three different types of fame points for death: death of a regular hero (1 point), death of a legendary hero (3 points), and death of any other noble (1 point).
This would trigger the third type, but not the others, because they're specifically for heroes.
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Oh, right, forgot about executions. I still think this addition should not trigger the third fame point; it's possible it could trigger it through less effort. Then again, if that's not a big enough concern, I guess it could trigger it.
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and death of any other noble (1 point).
Are you certain it's noble and not just character? I'm quite sure I got the fame point when my advy died....
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Based on what I have read, I think it is character. Despite some effort to test this I became impatient waiting for someone to execute my character and killed him off. Can anyone confirm having gained a fame point via advy death?
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At present, the "death" fame point can only be triggered by execution and duel death.
I cannot say for certain that the execution of an advy would not trigger this; however, their death in battle against monsters would not.