Greetings all,
With the recent rebellion Lyonesse I am wondering if this is a bug because it seems like a rather powerful .. almost exploit.
1. Declare rebellion
2. King can not exile rebels
3. Loyalists rally at capital
4. Rebels leave capital
5. Loyalists have to stay at the capital to gain control
6. Rebel changes allegience on region
7. Rebellion ends with rebel keeping region lord position.
thoughts?
Can you clarify a little? I'm not entirely sure what happened there...I'm not on Atamara, so I have no prior knowledge of these events.
Sure,
In Lyonesse, Flint declared a rebellion. Loyalist forces were a few regions away. We made our way to the capital where Flint and Sadat had a couple turns of taking over with no resistence. Loyalists show up, battle wages, Flint and Sadat flee. I try to exile them both, but can't during a rebellion. Flint goes to his region and changes allegiance to a neighboring realm. Next day the rebellion is over and Sadat is removed from his title, but since Flint is now a member of another realm, he keeps his position.
Seems to me this could be abused when the rebels see they are losing, just leave the capital and switch allegience before the rebellion officially ends.
There may be a second bug here but I'll wait until tomorrow to confirm. Flint was the General which is an elected position, him leaving the realm didn't trigger an election, though it shows the position as empty.
Thanks,
Scott
I don't see an issue with the allegiance change.
I don't think keeping titles is so much an issue. The thing that stands out for me is that Flint will have dodged an automatic ban by doing things this way. Perhaps there should also be an automatic ban for a rebel leader if they abandon the realm during the course of a rebellion as well as for defeat in the capital. Either way he has led a failed rebellion.
But what Flint did in hanging on to a lordship? It sounds sensible to me. If you are a rebel losing a rebellion you don't hang around for the executioners axe! Though most times you will have no hope of leaving the realm in time to switch allegiance. I expect it's very rare and only in extraordinary circumstances that any rebel leader can make it outside of their realms borders before their rebellion is crushed.
Hmm... may be any rebel switching allegiance before the rebellion ends gets an auto-ban?
Why not just auto-ban anybody who switches allegiance? We auto-ban secessionists, even when they're on good terms - the Judge can then go in and lift them. How is changing allegiance different?
That's what we used to do.
Quote from: Scarlett on July 25, 2013, 12:25:06 AM
Why not just auto-ban anybody who switches allegiance? We auto-ban secessionists, even when they're on good terms - the Judge can then go in and lift them. How is changing allegiance different?
I... actually thought this already did happen.
If rebels can change allegiance, don't block the Ruler from exiling. All the rebels in Silnaria need to do is when they start losing, change allegiance en mass without repercussion, and probably win the rebellion without having to fight for it. It just seems there's no counter-balance to this.
Can Judges ban rebels (during the rebellion)?
I only remember the Exile option ever used 1 time in my whole Battlemaster playing experience since year 2009.
The Exile can be used before the Rebellion, this much I can confirm. If let say during the Rebellion, I also dont know :(
Can you confirm whether the rebels(do they joined the rebellion or remain neutral status) before the supposed rebels change regions allegiance?
What I want to know is why a rebel General is able to disband troops AFTER a rebellion has begun.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on July 25, 2013, 06:19:16 AM
What I want to know is why a rebel General is able to disband troops AFTER a rebellion has begun.
Actually, yes, I would like to know this as well. I can confirm it works; I didn't think it would, so I tried.
I suppose one could argue that in the confusion, the commoners aren't sure whose orders to follow and are all too glad to accept whatever coin they can and bail. From a game balance perspective, though, it would mean that having the General on your side during a rebellion is pretty essential.
Very much related, I believe the General can also still assign militia.
I dont see here problem anywhere else than dodging banishment.
I can guarantee that in real life too, it is pretty essential which side General is rebels or loyalists :P
Everyone is not equal, not even during rebel times.
-Jaune
Military coups for everyone!!
Also dont forget the duke of the capital can also assign/disband militia during a rebellion, there's lots of people that you should not piss off during a rebellion
Quote from: Azerax on July 25, 2013, 01:21:50 AM
If rebels can change allegiance, don't block the Ruler from exiling. All the rebels in Silnaria need to do is when they start losing, change allegiance en mass without repercussion, and probably win the rebellion without having to fight for it. It just seems there's no counter-balance to this.
Can Judges ban rebels (during the rebellion)?
Rebels can't be exiled or banned because you're not in a position of authority to do anything to them until you have beaten them on the battlefield (and it also stops rulers dodging a probable successful rebellion by having bans go through before they are completely defeated etc.) Still, functionally joining the rebels is not unlike exile in some respects. Rebels cannot, for instance, recruit anything from the capital once they have joined a rebellion.
Rebels can't use the realms government services such as recruit, bank, repair, but they are able to process the paperwork to change allegience.
Perhaps the rebellion should instantly fail if there are 0 rebels in the capital? This gives time for the loyalists to act. If the rebellion had failed when Flint and partner left, I would have exiled him or have asked the judge to ban him. If Flint had returned to his region before either of those actions took place, changing allegience would the penalty for slow action.
PS - there is no automatic ban for the rebels losing, our Judge had to ban the remaining rebel today and the rebellion ended yesterday.
Paperwork? I'd say the only paperwork they need to do when changing allegiance is towards their new realm. To the old realm a simple note saying 'So long, suckers!' is more than enough.
First question: Why the hell would you want to exile them in the first place?? All Exile does is lock them out from government services—which, as rebels, they're excluded from anyway.
Repeat after me: Exile is not a ban. Exile is not a ban.
Regarding Generals: The General is in charge of the army. If the General is rebelling, you've got yourself a problem. This is intentional.
The only thing that looks like a problem to me is the lack of auto-ban when the rebel leader changed realms. Everything else appears to be working as intended.
I've never used Exile and my understanding of the description that any under your command will not deal with them, I thought it may remove his Lordship.
The General isn't an issue, he only logged on to keep the position and only rebelled when I changed it to an elected position.
Flint may be banned, I'm not sure if I would see that message when he changed allegience. I'm not sure he would tell me if he was.
Thanks,
Scott
Quote from: Azerax on July 25, 2013, 04:13:28 PM
I've never used Exile and my understanding of the description that any under your command will not deal with them, I thought it may remove his Lordship.
*bangs head repeatedly against wall*
I do not know
where people get the absurd variety of ideas I've seen about what it is that Exile does.
The Exile page describes exactly what effects the option has on the exiled. I do not know why people read it and then think, "Oh, so it must ____ <insert completely random negative effect on the exiled here>! That's exactly what I want to do to him!"
Quote from: Anaris on July 25, 2013, 04:27:36 PM
I do not know where people get the absurd variety of ideas I've seen about what it is that Exile does.
Many probably confuse it with the strip nobility option.
So an auto-ban should or shouldn't be in place when a rebelling noble leaves the realm?
Quote from: Lefanis on July 25, 2013, 04:56:24 PM
Many probably confuse it with the strip nobility option.
Eh? Either I'm completely spacing out right now or I have no idea what you are talking about. What is the strip nobility option?
Quote from: Geronus on July 25, 2013, 05:27:13 PM
Eh? Either I'm completely spacing out right now or I have no idea what you are talking about. What is the strip nobility option?
It is no longer in-game, and for many good reasons.
watches Anaris bang his head again the wall with his bowl of popcorn
auto-ban should be placed on the heads of the rebellion people if they lose. That would make sense.
mm Just in case anyone reads this thread
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Exile (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Exile)
Quote from: Blue Star on July 25, 2013, 05:58:39 PM
auto-ban should be placed on the heads of the rebellion people if they lose. That would make sense.
If the loyalists win, the judge gets a "ban all rebels" link, doesn't he?
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on July 25, 2013, 05:28:32 PM
It is no longer in-game, and for many good reasons.
There was never a "strip nobility" option. It was "Question Nobility". The difference is important, and not just semantic.
It was probably one of the least understood and most abused options we've ever had. (At least in part owing to the conflicting name, description, and effects.) We're all better off without it.
Quote from: Indirik on July 25, 2013, 06:06:50 PM
If the loyalists win, the judge gets a "ban all rebels" link, doesn't he?
Yes, but if the rebels leave the realm before the end of the rebellion they don't get auto-banned.
Which they should.
Quote from: Indirik on July 25, 2013, 06:10:10 PM
There was never a "strip nobility" option. It was "Question Nobility". The difference is important, and not just semantic.
I vaguely remember that now. I'm not sure if I was around when it was an option, but at the very least I recall it being discussed, probably on the D-list.
QuotePS - there is no automatic ban for the rebels losing, our Judge had to ban the remaining rebel today and the rebellion ended yesterday.
That's intended, so long as your judge had the option to ban them all at once. Not all realms want the rebels banned, or at least not all of them.
Not even the rebel leader? This seems very one sided, the Ruler stands to lose everything, the rebels can avoid all penalties
As far as I know, the losing leader(rebel or the ruler whoever lost) will be automatic banned. Their family history will be recorded having this ban stated as "Leader of failed rebellion". Not all rebels will be banned, often the winning side will be gracious enough to give them sometime to go away from the lands ;)
Having a General and the Duke of the capital in your side, will be very important for the rebels. General or Duke can disband the capital militia so that you can win or lose the palace battle easily. So make sure you do not go around appoint wrong persons for these positions ::)
As Anaris says, never use Exile, it only hurts yourself your Honor, and hard earned Prestige. Exile is to see who can last longer in the realm, especially when you cannot ban outright those Royal status folk. This Exile button will be use frequently in future due to a lot of confusion, hehehe 8)
Another thing is having 2 characters from same family in the same realm do not hold any advantage in rebellion. Only 1 character can participate while another 1 has to remain neutral. I should know this better, as one of my character attack my another character. If possible, choose the best character from the 2 characters to participate. The neutral character best get out of harm way by going far away from capital.
Quote from: Ketchum on July 26, 2013, 02:19:07 AM
I should know this better, as one of my character attack my another character. If possible, choose the best character from the 2 characters to participate. The neutral character best get out of harm way by going far away from capital.
Assuming both characters has reason for that :)
Intresting thing is, when judge is one of the rebels... how to get him ban rebels... or more so, how to organize protest fest to get him down from judges seat, without causing protest fest on ruler...
I believe if the Rebellion fails, the Judge if a Rebel will automatically lose his seat. But don't quote me on that as it might very well be misinformation.
Rebel leaders appear to avoid the ban by joining another realm. (Flint, if you read this, did you get banned and we just didn't get notified?)
Quote from: Azerax on July 26, 2013, 02:42:38 PM
Rebel leaders appear to avoid the ban by joining another realm. (Flint, if you read this, did you get banned and we just didn't get notified?)
He left during a rebellion, so its probably intended there was no ban. If you really want to know he was or not, either ask your judge or check his family page.
Quote from: Penchant on July 27, 2013, 03:24:07 AM
He left during a rebellion, so its probably intended there was no ban.
Like I already said, it's not.
Quote from: Anaris on July 27, 2013, 03:51:48 AM
Like I already said, it's not.
My bad, so sorry on that one. I will see if I can find his family page to check. There was no ban if you weren't already aware, so there is a bug with it.
Has this been fixed yet?
It's happened in the Barony of Makar.
Then it stands to reason that it has, in fact, not been fixed.