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I think I want to try the infiltrator class but I'm not sure if it's worth the trade-offs. Also wondering how long does the training take, how much gold does it cost, and can you still do other things, like maintain a unit and go into battle?

Whether it's worth it or not depends on what you want to do with it, and what you expect to get out of this character. It's impossible to answer in general, but I can answer your specific questions.

Quote from: Buffalkill on November 27, 2013, 08:19:45 AM
Also wondering how long does the training take,

A very long time to get proficient enough to do risky things. You're looking at many RL months if you find a situation where you do nothing else full-time; probably closer to a year if you do it on the side. Of course, if you're willing to take risks you can do things before that.

Quote from: Buffalkill on November 27, 2013, 08:19:45 AM
how much gold does it cost,

A lot; then again relatively not so much considering how much gold there is in the game. Training 6 hours a turn will cost you 336 gold a week once you are the expert level; a region Lord can be able to rake in that gold.

Quote from: Buffalkill on November 27, 2013, 08:19:45 AM
and can you still do other things, like maintain a unit and go into battle?

Yes! You get a limitation on unit size, but especially if you're able to maintain your H/P level they are reasonable.

No, it's not really worth it. It takes too much gold and too much time and the returns are too small. My infiltrator has 80+ Infiltration skill yet still gets caught just walking into an enemy region more often than not. Occasionally you'll manage to pull off something good, but generally, unless you're a rich Duke in a realm at peace with lots of spare time, it's just not worth it.

There are some plans to improve the fun of the infiltrator class, mainly by adding more low-risk, low-reward actions that you can train with (so you can actually be out there doing something, rather than spending gold at the academy), and looking carefully at the balance of all the different levels of infiltrator skill.

The is practically a you are a masochist class. Why bother?
Wounding can happen in battle randomly.
Looting can be done by your unit and you do not get captured for it.
Travels times can increase on their own.
Anyone can tell in what region you are with a scout report. It doesn't take a genius to tell who did what.

Quote from: mikm on November 29, 2013, 08:04:20 PM
The is practically a you are a masochist class. Why bother?
Wounding can happen in battle randomly.
Looting can be done by your unit and you do not get captured for it.
Travels times can increase on their own.
Anyone can tell in what region you are with a scout report. It doesn't take a genius to tell who did what.

To your first four statements, timing and who/what is important and is the power of the infiltrator. As to your last, there are many times when infiltrators successfully do things without anyone knowing who did it exactly.

I had an infiltrator with about 60 sword, 60 infil skill. He was alone in a region together with a priest. He got caught by "guards" trying to stab the priest. All those invisible, apparition like dudes that suddenly materialised out the ether the moment I tried to do something suspicious.

Edit: so at the moment, no. Unless you have a lot of time and gold, and don't mind losing honour/prestige, getting deported or eventually executed.

Maybe with the new changes, however.

I started a inexperienced infiltrator some time ago. Played him from 17 to 21 (right now), and have found it neat. I haven't sat and farmed experience at the academy. He's traveled around a few continents, battled enough to gain honor/prestige, and had a few successes. Both swordfighting and infiltration is at around 30-40%, wounded one and was caught on my second attempt at a higher profile target. Might have been caught a few times for stealing and/or various mischief, but no bans that have stuck.

As long as you hold back some gold for training at the academy while you refit your troops, you'll make some progress. Much more of a gambler's class.

Quote from: Dishman on December 01, 2013, 09:23:24 PM
I started a inexperienced infiltrator some time ago. Played him from 17 to 21 (right now), and have found it neat. I haven't sat and farmed experience at the academy. He's traveled around a few continents, battled enough to gain honor/prestige, and had a few successes. Both swordfighting and infiltration is at around 30-40%, wounded one and was caught on my second attempt at a higher profile target. Might have been caught a few times for stealing and/or various mischief, but no bans that have stuck.

As long as you hold back some gold for training at the academy while you refit your troops, you'll make some progress. Much more of a gambler's class.

This, I have played several infiltrators, and all of them I trained in the field. While I never felt I was changing the course of history I was able to assist my realms quite easily, and felt I had more impact then just another troop leader. Several battles went our way due to playing with road signs for example to delay enemy reinforcements at critical times.

I don't recommend playing a infiltrator if you don't want to get caught though, even my top infiltrators would get caught doing things of moderate risk. To me that was just one aspect  of the class, getting to know various judges on a first name basis. I had a long running bet with one Judge on how many times I could escape his prison before he eventually executed me. That is just the mindset I think you need for the infil class. To me it was all about making as big a name for myself as possible before the eventual execution occurred, unless you play against the soft elves cause they just used to deport me. Pain to wait to immigrate but there was always demand for my services in the colonies as well, it was like my summer home.

I had my infiltrator in the colonies for a while and started to wonder if the slowed pace was too much of a drain. He seemed to age like the rest of my characters but wasn't getting as much academy time as he did on other continents.

I've already roamed a bit with this character, so I don't intend on putting down roots anywhere with him. I'm prepared for the eventual deportations and inevitable execution. It is what gives the class fun.

Going to see about trying something new in the Colonies now that all the realms are in the Colonial Empire err I mean Senate.

Working to see band infiltrators have the option to buy back the ban so that we can keep infiltrators around more.  I know it does not change the slower pace of the Colonies...but still keeps infils from risking death as much until they are trained.

Quote from: Valast on December 03, 2013, 07:16:04 AM
Going to see about trying something new in the Colonies now that all the realms are in the Colonial Empire err I mean Senate.

Working to see band infiltrators have the option to buy back the ban so that we can keep infiltrators around more.  I know it does not change the slower pace of the Colonies...but still keeps infils from risking death as much until they are trained.

It seems people are much more likely to execute infiltrators these days. Not so long ago I would have had to actually done something besides being a infiltrator to warrant and execution, like betray a realm or something of that nature.

I'm training for a long time, just to reach 40/40 in Swordfight and Infiltration. It's a hard work and demands a lot of gold. Even so, I continue being arrested even trying to steal rogue regions. And I must say... it's a hard time to reach more than 40% in training, mainly because one day you have 45%, in another training, you have 40% once again... I faced it along the 30/35% many and many times.

I would love to play my first Infiltrator, but it seems now that it's better to play with a Priest than with an Infiltrator. The class need changes, because you will need a LOT of TIME doing nothing more than training... and you can be executed in a blink. In my humble opinion, this is the worst class in the game right now. I saw great Infiltrators in the past, in the last times all I saw are ridiculous attempts from unexperencied Infiltrators just to get caught and then deported/executed.

I doubt there's a lot of players with patience enough to spend a lot of gold - and mainly a lot of time doing nothing - for a little gain. Even an adveturer can give you more fun in a good game than an Infiltrator. Useless class in these days...

Quote from: Eduardo Almighty on December 05, 2013, 01:16:24 AM
And I must say... it's a hard time to reach more than 40% in training, mainly because one day you have 45%, in another training, you have 40% once again... I faced it along the 30/35% many and many times.

The number you see is just an approximation. I've had it vary from 50-65 in a single week. So you're not really going down, you just more than likely haven't hit 45% yet... something like 43% maybe. Also note that even when you fail outright, Tom has confirmed that it does add up to increase your chance of succeeding. There's a lot of randomization for skill increases for a very specific reason.

I will say, however, it does go up faster in actual missions.

Quote from: Eduardo Almighty on December 05, 2013, 01:16:24 AM
I'm training for a long time, just to reach 40/40 in Swordfight and Infiltration. It's a hard work and demands a lot of gold. Even so, I continue being arrested even trying to steal rogue regions. And I must say... it's a hard time to reach more than 40% in training, mainly because one day you have 45%, in another training, you have 40% once again... I faced it along the 30/35% many and many times.

I would love to play my first Infiltrator, but it seems now that it's better to play with a Priest than with an Infiltrator. The class need changes, because you will need a LOT of TIME doing nothing more than training... and you can be executed in a blink. In my humble opinion, this is the worst class in the game right now. I saw great Infiltrators in the past, in the last times all I saw are ridiculous attempts from unexperencied Infiltrators just to get caught and then deported/executed.

I doubt there's a lot of players with patience enough to spend a lot of gold - and mainly a lot of time doing nothing - for a little gain. Even an adveturer can give you more fun in a good game than an Infiltrator. Useless class in these days...

People have field trained their infiltrators before successfully and I am tired of explaining the usefulness of the class, so I won't. They certainly can be quite successful in attacks but there will be plenty of failures as well. (One of my characters was just successfully attacked in fact, unfortunately.)

Quote from: Eduardo Almighty on December 05, 2013, 01:16:24 AM
I saw great Infiltrators in the past, in the last times all I saw are ridiculous attempts from unexperencied Infiltrators just to get caught and then deported/executed.

They must have not been so great if you saw them.

I saw them because my Judge was better than them. Nothing like wait for the turn change 3am against someone waiting for the same, just to discover who will be the lucky one to press the button in the first seconds. Or deport more than five times two of the best Infiltrators from Fontan. Or see one of them losing the greatest bounty in the game (ever) because of greedy. And considering that Erik was wounded just one time and only after the old age as a Priest, yes... I saw them because Erik was better than them.

That was the kind of Infiltrator I miss... and I'm discovering how boring is to create an Infiltrator like this.

Quote from: Eduardo Almighty on December 05, 2013, 01:16:24 AM
I'm training for a long time, just to reach 40/40 in Swordfight and Infiltration. It's a hard work and demands a lot of gold.

Partially because you are going about it in a way that was not intended to be the way.

One thing that helps to dramatically shorten these times is to, you know, turn a character who is already good at swordfighting into an infiltrator instead of starting from the ground up. Then it's just infiltration skill you need to train.

And rogue regions are NOT intended as infiltration training areas, which is why stealing them is NOT AT ALL easier than any other regions. And potentially worse, because rogue has no judge to set you free early.

It doesn't matter how you train your skill if you're still virtually useless as an "expert". In recent days I tried twice to enter an enemy region. Not steal from it, not assassinate anyone, just enter the region. Both times I was caught. With 80+% skill. And this has been an ongoing issue the entire Far East war. I've been caught more times entering enemy regions than actually taking Infil actions.

My own character has never been caught by just entering a region. Masbe you're unlucky, but maybe you do very risky things. It is possible to play it safe.

Those border ninjas must be almost as bad-ass as the tax ninjas. I think you'll find that they are mostly bluster, and no action, though. Just keep a bodyguard or two around, and they won't bother you. ;)

QuotePartially because you are going about it in a way that was not intended to be the way.

One thing that helps to dramatically shorten these times is to, you know, turn a character who is already good at swordfighting into an infiltrator instead of starting from the ground up. Then it's just infiltration skill you need to train.

I received a tip from Tom!? That's not something you see everyday  ;D

And I know... I even know that is a good way to start with an Adventurer to have the swordfight. However, for the entire time I used the character as a normal warrior, he won just 10% of swordfight... then, in this case was best to train at the academy. Erik used to have 90% just fighting at the battlefield, but he have years and years and and hundreds of battles.

QuoteAnd rogue regions are NOT intended as infiltration training areas, which is why stealing them is NOT AT ALL easier than any other regions. And potentially worse, because rogue has no judge to set you free early.

Two sides... I have a rogue region, a townsland, at my door. And I prefer to steal gold there to continue training, even being arrested, that try it with low numbers in a region with a Judge... the Judge will not release me... he will ban and deport me. Then, yes, I'm following the hard way...

I just hope to enjoy it a little before being beheaded :)

Quote from: Velax on December 05, 2013, 01:12:21 PM
It doesn't matter how you train your skill if you're still virtually useless as an "expert". In recent days I tried twice to enter an enemy region. Not steal from it, not assassinate anyone, just enter the region. Both times I was caught. With 80+% skill. And this has been an ongoing issue the entire Far East war. I've been caught more times entering enemy regions than actually taking Infil actions.

How many nobles? Where they doing police work? At that skill level I was normally able to enter capitals without too much risk, the biggest risk was always if characters saw me coming and where able to prepare.

Regarding the poll, I plumped for diplomat. Combine it with being a priest and let preaching boost your oratory skill sky high. Then, once you are an expert, enjoy having the power to restore a regions loyalty with jut a few words. Or likewise, to incite rebellion in a region just as easily. It can be a lot of fun :-)

Quote from: De-Legro on December 06, 2013, 12:35:38 AM
How many nobles? Where they doing police work?

Bingo. Inspiring infiltrators seem to forget that their chances are not static. If you steal from the same region all the time, they will start to wise up. If someone ELSE has been stealing (or doing other infiltrator actions) recently, they will be alarmed. And enemy nobles can also work up the police force and make them more alert.

There's a lot of variables in this whole thing, it's not just "roll 2d6".

Quote from: De-Legro on December 06, 2013, 12:35:38 AM
How many nobles? Where they doing police work?

It varies. Sometimes there are nobles. Sometimes there are none.

One of my characters is this world traveler who has served in every crazy scheme and in every weird capacity at some point, and for a time he served as an infiltrator as well.

I think you are looking at this the wrong way; you become an infiltrator not for slight optimization on your character's abilities or because you gain something totally useful, but because it's just really risky and stupid and fun. I think for my character, it really fit him for a time because he is this insane guy who travels everywhere and does every cracked-out scheme he can. The only reason he stopped is because it drew a lot of unwanted attention to him if he ever changed realms, and he wanted to try out other things.

I say you just go for it for a while and see how much you like it. I think you should think 'is this fun' instead of 'does this really make sense statistically'.

Quote from: anoobowner on December 07, 2013, 02:50:35 PM
One of my characters is this world traveler who has served in every crazy scheme and in every weird capacity at some point, and for a time he served as an infiltrator as well.

I think you are looking at this the wrong way; you become an infiltrator not for slight optimization on your character's abilities or because you gain something totally useful, but because it's just really risky and stupid and fun. I think for my character, it really fit him for a time because he is this insane guy who travels everywhere and does every cracked-out scheme he can. The only reason he stopped is because it drew a lot of unwanted attention to him if he ever changed realms, and he wanted to try out other things.

I say you just go for it for a while and see how much you like it. I think you should think 'is this fun' instead of 'does this really make sense statistically'.

That's pretty much the right idea... I had an infil that became infamous within a few months of moving to Beluaterra and got a freakin' sweet nickname in the end. He got executed and is now a permanent part of the history of Melhed.

Quote from: Tom on December 06, 2013, 11:18:36 AM

There's a lot of variables in this whole thing, it's not just "roll 2d6".

Tom,

It might be beneficial to have some of these vagaries of the game mechanics explained a little better somewhere. I get totally that not knowing exactly how the system works is part of the fun, and I agree with that, but I think for a lot of newer players it can be daunting. It can look like there isn't much going on in the game. There actually is, but you just can't see it. Which is cool.

I feel like this may have something to do with the shrinking player base.

I personally have no problem with the more mysterious aspects of Battlemaster- I feel it reinforces more roleplaying. But I think a lot of gamers, particularly younger people, might relate to their characters better through concrete information about the game mechanics. The kids who are bored with WoW and seek a real interaction in BM, but find themselves puzzled right out of the game when they don't know anything about their characters. Just a bit of more explicit information might help newer players to stay engaged.

This is not to criticize. Its just simply a hypothesis and potential solution. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

I agree that the line between the known and unknown could be adjusted a bit in some cases. For example, I think that it should be common knowledge that noble count, police activity, whatever, whatever affect ones chance of successfully pulling off an infiltrator action while details like the formulas used should remain hidden. As I see it, if a trained infiltrator would know it, then the information should be available to the player base. Same thing for other classes. I have never been a big fan of depending on players to know what their characters know. When RPing, it is easy for there to be a disconnect in such matters...

Quote from: Unwin on December 13, 2013, 07:06:27 PM
I agree that the line between the known and unknown could be adjusted a bit in some cases. For example, I think that it should be common knowledge that noble count, police activity, whatever, whatever affect ones chance of successfully pulling off an infiltrator action while details like the formulas used should remain hidden. As I see it, if a trained infiltrator would know it, then the information should be available to the player base. Same thing for other classes. I have never been a big fan of depending on players to know what their characters know. When RPing, it is easy for there to be a disconnect in such matters...

Noble count and police activity aren't common knowledge? I believe police activity is stated right on the infil actions page (albeit somewhat hidden in the leading paragraph before you choose options) and noble count is pretty easy to check. Both of those would be pretty logical to assume as well. Maybe other factors like strength/number of militia and such are a little more uncertain as to whether they affect anything...

Provided we assume that these pieces of information aren't clearly communicated as risks, I think it'd be just perfect to mention them as "because of XYZ, there is a higher risk"... the formula itself should never come out.

So people haven't figured out the infiltrator trick, yet?

Never go hunting for someone, more likely to fail than not now. Best practice well as Tom said get good sward(on purpose) fight then switch to Infiltrator. Since we can have units, use it to your advantage, carry lots of scouts, pretend you a regularly solider and then...

As the night falls he leaves his men at the camp and heads into the hills quietly going about with his hood raised around his head, he spots the enemy camp and moves swiftly just outside the lights of the fire and he waits as it gets deeper into the night and the fire dims softly. He makes his way into camp going unnoticed blending in with the shadows, he enters a tent of a sleeping noble, the count of Monte Cristo, sliding between the tent flaps he makes his way over the count and leans above him hand in his sleeve he pulls... a dagger from within and aims at the man intending to do mortal harm....

He strikes leaving the count in pain as the pointed tipped dagger breaks the skin and does it's job, all the count hears as the tents flap open slightly is a jingle from a bell and the fire light vanishing as darkness falls upon the tent.