I'm working on an idea for an international bank based on a guild. Here's my thinking so far:
Guild Ranks:
Applicant- Aspirant rank from which people can apply for loans. Like in a real bank loans have to be approved by the guild. Interested nobles will need to give a reason they need the gold and show evidence that they'll be able to pay it back with interest. This rank can also be used to apply to become a Branch Manager, in which case they'd need to show they are capable of creating a new guild house.
Debtor- A rank with a high max debt and a monthly fee. Rank is by appointment only.
Creditor- This rank is purchased at a high cost. It then comes with a monthly grant. The grant should be considerably lower then the fees applied to debtors. If a creditor's balance falls into the negatives then they are demoted to debtors.
Branch Manager- Reserved for region lords who open a new guild house in their region. Branch managers receive a grant without needing to buy an expensive rank since they've already built a guild house.
Magistrates- A rank reserved for realm judges who are bank members, Magistrates must swear to enforce the bank's authority within their realm applying punishments to debtors who reach their maximum debt and other people who transgress the bank's rules.
Executive Officer of the Bank- The highest rank reserved for whomever is in charge.
In addition to the bank's treasury the institution can be used for nobles to arrange direct investments with one another. Nobles entering into a contract can have the bank enforce their transaction in exchange for a nominal fee.
So what are your thoughts? Would this work? If so I think it would make for a great way to drive roleplay, create intrigue and otherwise ad excitement to the game. Imagine realms bitterly paying off war debts, or a creditor realm going to war with a realm of debtors so their accounts don't get seized. So many possibilities.
Your post is very detailed for an international bank. We could use someone like you on Colonies island when we need the realm to transfer money to another realm.
I like this idea. Perhaps there could be a role for the realms' bankers too. I'd probably sign up if you're doing this on Dwilight or Atamara.
It is an interesting idea. However, I think that guild taxes and maintenance would kill it. Any region lord could run up huge amounts of credit by depositing gold, then cranking up the regional tax rates to get it back for himself. Guildhouse maintenance would also slowly sap away your reserves, requiring people to continually put in money to maintain guildhouses, and thus generating bigger and bigger balances.
In addition, I think you'd also have a problem with the realms, if your judges start trying to enforce guild punishments at a realm level. What realm would be willing to allow that to happen? No way in hell I'd let you start banning/fining my nobles because they owe your guild money.
I think it's worth trying.
Quote from: Indirik on January 03, 2014, 06:04:05 PM
It is an interesting idea. However, I think that guild taxes and maintenance would kill it. Any region lord could run up huge amounts of credit by depositing gold, then cranking up the regional tax rates to get it back for himself.
That would be rather risky wouldn't it? You can't just increase guild taxes so they'd be hurting their own region. Also Branch managers could be required to swear to a standard tax rate or risk being ejected from the guild.
Quote from: Indirik on January 03, 2014, 06:04:05 PM
Guildhouse maintenance would also slowly sap away your reserves, requiring people to continually put in money to maintain guildhouses, and thus generating bigger and bigger balances.
Can't the grant fee structure be set to compensate for this?
Quote from: Indirik on January 03, 2014, 06:04:05 PM
In addition, I think you'd also have a problem with the realms, if your judges start trying to enforce guild punishments at a realm level. What realm would be willing to allow that to happen? No way in hell I'd let you start banning/fining my nobles because they owe your guild money.
Well that's the fun of it. Suppose half the realm are creditors in the bank. The guild magistrate wants to impose a fine on a delinquent debtor. The ruler doesn't like that and threatens to kick out the judge if he does so. The judge explains this to the Chief banker and the banker threatens to eject every creditor in that realm from the guild and seize their accounts.
Quote from: Buffalkill on January 03, 2014, 04:54:18 PM
I like this idea. Perhaps there could be a role for the realms' bankers too. I'd probably sign up if you're doing this on Dwilight or Atamara.
I think the best role for bankers would be "Auditors" they could provide information to the bank and help investigate possible abuses.
I'm thinking I'll start in Atamara first. I have a character there who has a region but otherwise doesn't do much. I just need to work out some exact numbers for this.
Sounds to me like someone has a system that looks interesting, but has a few glaring flaws that rely on the trust of the members within or the realms supporting it... Perfect. It's always more fun when the system isn't perfect beforehand. Makes yet another way in which someone could start a new war. Some Duke embezzles? See who will help punish him... Those who don't? Boot from the guild or attack them.
Exactly, tons of potential for conflicts and corruption, but also a risk of getting caught.
I would do tiered ranks for both creditor and debitor. That way you get more money from creditors and with debitors they can't take 500 when a loan was only agreed to be 100 and you can have different interest rates. With Branch Manager and Creditor you have to be careful otherwise you lose all your funds so I suggest small grants for Creditor, like say 5 a month for 100 gold, 10 for 250, 17 for 500, etc. With Branch Manager I would suggest that they get a grant once every in game year of maybe 25. I would also suggest having two sets of ranks, one for Branch Managers and one for non debtors so you aren't switching their rank just for that grant once a year. As well you could probably set up special deals for high ranking members of realms be willing to submit some authority to the bank.
I think the main problem is that we already have a lot of gold around for everyone, mainly in Dwilight, where everyone is Lord. In some realms, like in Sirion, we have our own way to distribute gold and I can just imagine the tons of gold some old people have with them. I know because I'm used to donate a lot of it, send it to my family or just keep it around. It's usual to keep 1/2k gold in bonds with my rich characters.
However, I can imagine a situation where a Priest of a poor religion try a loan to build a temple or something like this. Or Adventurers... maybe poor Lords that wants to build up in their regions fastest than he wants to wait for a certain number of taxes. In the end, I think the continent you choose will determine much of the success or failure of this idea. Mainly because few people will care to help, in a way or another, an enemy.
Quote"The bank is an institution that lend us money if we present sufficient evidence that we doesn't need money at all..." - Baron of Itararé.
Quote from: Indirik on January 03, 2014, 06:04:05 PM
It is an interesting idea. However, I think that guild taxes and maintenance would kill it. Any region lord could run up huge amounts of credit by depositing gold, then cranking up the regional tax rates to get it back for himself. Guildhouse maintenance would also slowly sap away your reserves, requiring people to continually put in money to maintain guildhouses, and thus generating bigger and bigger balances.
Do not foil my plan!
Quote from: Eduardo Almighty on January 04, 2014, 07:14:33 PM
I think the main problem is that we already have a lot of gold around for everyone, mainly in Dwilight, where everyone is Lord. In some realms, like in Sirion, we have our own way to distribute gold and I can just imagine the tons of gold some old people have with them. I know because I'm used to donate a lot of it, send it to my family or just keep it around. It's usual to keep 1/2k gold in bonds with my rich characters.
However, I can imagine a situation where a Priest of a poor religion try a loan to build a temple or something like this. Or Adventurers... maybe poor Lords that wants to build up in their regions fastest than he wants to wait for a certain number of taxes. In the end, I think the continent you choose will determine much of the success or failure of this idea. Mainly because few people will care to help, in a way or another, an enemy.
A banking system might just solve the problem of excessive wealth by generating massive debts. A few impatient lords borrow money for a new project. Now they owe the guild. They're making payments on that loan and they can't give their knights extra gold for their units, so those knights borrow from the guild. Before you know it gold is a more valuable commodity then it used to be.
Quote from: Eduardo Almighty on January 04, 2014, 07:14:33 PM
I think the main problem is that we already have a lot of gold around for everyone, mainly in Dwilight, where everyone is Lord. In some realms, like in Sirion, we have our own way to distribute gold and I can just imagine the tons of gold some old people have with them. I know because I'm used to donate a lot of it, send it to my family or just keep it around. It's usual to keep 1/2k gold in bonds with my rich characters.
However, I can imagine a situation where a Priest of a poor religion try a loan to build a temple or something like this. Or Adventurers... maybe poor Lords that wants to build up in their regions fastest than he wants to wait for a certain number of taxes. In the end, I think the continent you choose will determine much of the success or failure of this idea. Mainly because few people will care to help, in a way or another, an enemy.
There are plenty of people who could go for more gold. A new realm wanting to quickly boost infrastructure, need more RC's, or looking for a boost to their military while in war. A poor knight who wants to get gold to be able to field a big unit to impress the leadership to get a lordship. New realm or margrave wants to fund a tournament. A losing realm in war is getting strapped for gold for military and/or food. There are plenty of reasons to need a loan.
Alright, I think I'm gonna go for this.
Here's what I have so far:
Guild Ranks of "Bank of Atamara"
Nr. Title Joining Fee Monthly Fee/Grant Max. Debt
1 Founder
5 Magistrate 10 gold 100 gold
6 Auditor 20 gold 100 gold
7 Gold Class Creditor 500 gold 75 gold 0 gold
8 Silver Class Creditor 300 gold 50 gold 0 gold
9 Creditor 100 gold 30 gold 0 gold
20 Account Holder 25 gold 0 gold 0 gold
21 Minor Debtor -60 gold 100 gold
22 Moderate Debtor -80 gold 300 gold
23 Major Debtor -100 gold 500 gold
110 Applicant 0 gold 0 gold
Does this grant fee structure look right to you guys?
Your grants/fees are much to high on the grants side. Your giving 500 a month to your biggest grant, but only taking 80 s month from your biggest debtor. That's completely opposite to what you need. Overall, you need a lot more fees in order for the guild to generate revenue.
Quote from: Indirik on January 24, 2014, 12:47:02 PM
Your grants/fees are much to high on the grants side. Your giving 500 a month to your biggest grant, but only taking 80 s month from your biggest debtor. That's completely opposite to what you need. Overall, you need a lot more fees in order for the guild to generate revenue.
Yes, in BM we cant just create gold from nothing like we do in RL :)
"You need money, just a second i will start money machine!"
Guilds can't work as a bank, because as others have stated, any lord can easily game this by dumping a ton of gold before taxes, and withdrawing it all just after. Heck, he can probably hike taxes just for tax days, and I think that as far as guilds are concerned, it'd be as if taxes were high all along.
Quote from: Indirik on January 24, 2014, 12:47:02 PM
Your grants/fees are much to high on the grants side. Your giving 500 a month to your biggest grant, but only taking 80 s month from your biggest debtor. That's completely opposite to what you need. Overall, you need a lot more fees in order for the guild to generate revenue.
Sorry it didn't line up right when I copied and pasted.
500 is the cost to become a gold class creditor, they get an 80 gold grant. The highest debtor has a 100 gold fee.
Quote from: Chénier on January 24, 2014, 01:25:40 PM
Guilds can't work as a bank, because as others have stated, any lord can easily game this by dumping a ton of gold before taxes, and withdrawing it all just after. Heck, he can probably hike taxes just for tax days, and I think that as far as guilds are concerned, it'd be as if taxes were high all along.
I addressed that already. Hiking taxes would harm his region and piss off all his knights and then on top of that I'd kick him out of the guild because I intend to make all branch managers swear to a maximum tax rate. You can't hike taxes on just guilds you'd have to raise the base region tax rate. I'm pretty sure when you hike taxes on just tax day you only get that last day's taxes at a higher rate.
Why would hiking taxes make your knights angry? I can't imagine they would care. Also, i can think of a few ways break your guild financial system, without breaking any rules. Also, swearing to a maximum tax rate? Yeah, that's a bit overreaching.
Quote from: Indirik on January 24, 2014, 11:03:25 PM
Why would hiking taxes make your knights angry? I can't imagine they would care.
Oh never-mind I was thinking "Lord's Share".
Quote from: Indirik on January 24, 2014, 11:03:25 PMAlso, i can think of a few ways break your guild financial system, without breaking any rules.
That's ok real financial institutions can be broken as well. As long as the abuses can be policed enough to let the bank grown I'm fine with it. I'm not doing this to create a secure stable institution for safe investments. I'm doing it to create an unstable, corruptible institution for risky investments that create chaos and drive conflict.
Quote from: Indirik on January 24, 2014, 11:03:25 PM
Also, swearing to a maximum tax rate? Yeah, that's a bit overreaching.
Why? Real banks and corporations do it all the time. Comcast for example gets to operate in Philadelphia nearly free of city taxes. The rational is if the city taxes them they'll move somewhere else and take the jobs with them.
I was thinking no more then 15% tax rates almost no one operates more then that anyway. Or maybe no more then a 3% increase in the rate you had upon joining.
Quote from: Indirik on January 24, 2014, 11:03:25 PM
Why would hiking taxes make your knights angry? I can't imagine they would care. Also, i can think of a few ways break your guild financial system, without breaking any rules. Also, swearing to a maximum tax rate? Yeah, that's a bit overreaching.
Indeed: higher taxes means more gold for them. Guild taxes are based on region taxes, not lord's share.
I had started a Dwilight Banking Guild, though I don't recall the name, but I quickly came to realize that it could be so easily gamed that I never put any effort into developping it and let it die.
Quote from: Chénier on January 24, 2014, 11:50:51 PM
Indeed: higher taxes means more gold for them. Guild taxes are based on region taxes, not lord's share.
I had started a Dwilight Banking Guild, though I don't recall the name, but I quickly came to realize that it could be so easily gamed that I never put any effort into developping it and let it die.
Well now I know what to look for. I imagine it will take a while before a branch manager even thinks to commit this kind of embezzlement.
Even if they don't, you still face two funamental problems:
1) people never really pay their dues for any guild or religion.
2) even normal taxes that don't intentionally drain your guildhouses will drain them, and will stack up on upkeep, meaning your scheme would have to generate a lot of revenues just to compensate for that.
There's also a lot of other lesser problems, like the fact that building a guildhouse doesn't influence one's balance, and such nobody is really likely to want to build them for you unless you pay for them yourself.
You need an array of enforcement tools. If you involve the right people with enough power and influence, then I think you can find ways to effectively deal with any of the problems being mentioned. For example, you can hire infiltrators to go after delinquent account holders, set bounties, use judges, bankers, rulers, priests, etc. In extreme cases, you might resort to military force. Lords that try to exact unfair taxes may get their guild house closed down, or they may wake to find an assassin in their bed chamber, or they might have their lordship taken away by the duke. Perhaps guild members could be asked/told not to sell food or provide any assistance to lords that have been blacklisted by the bank. The key is to have a multitude of tools at your disposal and get the right people on your side.
This could breath new life into the game in so many different ways.
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 01:51:08 PM
Even if they don't, you still face two funamental problems:
1) people never really pay their dues for any guild or religion.
Because no one bothers to make them pay. In SA I actually try to pay my dues most of the time because I've known people to get denied promotions for high debts.
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 01:51:08 PM
2) even normal taxes that don't intentionally drain your guildhouses will drain them, and will stack up on upkeep, meaning your scheme would have to generate a lot of revenues just to compensate for that.
Yeah to the tune of like five gold a weak. A single low level debtor should take care of that.
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 01:51:08 PM
There's also a lot of other lesser problems, like the fact that building a guildhouse doesn't influence one's balance, and such nobody is really likely to want to build them for you unless you pay for them yourself.
The "Branch manager" rank will have a grant equal to what a creditor would be getting.
Quote from: Buffalkill on January 25, 2014, 06:15:03 PM
You need an array of enforcement tools. If you involve the right people with enough power and influence, then I think you can find ways to effectively deal with any of the problems being mentioned. For example, you can hire infiltrators to go after delinquent account holders, set bounties, use judges, bankers, rulers, priests, etc. In extreme cases, you might resort to military force. Lords that try to exact unfair taxes may get their guild house closed down, or they may wake to find an assassin in their bed chamber, or they might have their lordship taken away by the duke. Perhaps guild members could be asked/told not to sell food or provide any assistance to lords that have been blacklisted by the bank. The key is to have a multitude of tools at your disposal and get the right people on your side.
My thoughts exactly. If the nay-sayers don't want to join I'm not gonna put a gun to their head.
Quote from: Buffalkill on January 25, 2014, 06:15:03 PM
You need an array of enforcement tools. If you involve the right people with enough power and influence, then I think you can find ways to effectively deal with any of the problems being mentioned. For example, you can hire infiltrators to go after delinquent account holders, set bounties, use judges, bankers, rulers, priests, etc. In extreme cases, you might resort to military force. Lords that try to exact unfair taxes may get their guild house closed down, or they may wake to find an assassin in their bed chamber, or they might have their lordship taken away by the duke. Perhaps guild members could be asked/told not to sell food or provide any assistance to lords that have been blacklisted by the bank. The key is to have a multitude of tools at your disposal and get the right people on your side.
Infiltrators: they tend to charge a lot for their deeds, so bunch of gold down the drain right there. Plus: I've been the target of many infil attacks, never really bothered me all that much. Wounded for a few days? Oh well, I'll just focus on my other characters a little more in the coming days. Usually, though, the attacks just fail, I begin patrolling the streets and the infil is caught soon after. It is no secret that I think very poorly of the infiltrator subclass. Even if you had infils continuously stab me, which I doubt you could, I'd just scoff it off: sooner than later they'll get caught, maybe tortured, banned, and next time their head will roll.
Bounties: Same principle as above, a new huge money dump. Plus, bounties rarely really attract infiltrator actions that wouldn't have occured anyways. I've seen a bunch of people, myself included, with high bounties for very large periods of time. When my characters eventually get attacked, it's usually by a realm I'm at war with by someone who would have tried it anyways.
Government members, priests, armies? Really? What do they care for your guild? Even if you had powerful friends in on it, they'd probably never get away with using the realm's resources for your guild's aims.
Closing guild houses: This also actually costs gold too. It'd also mean lowering the maximum full member count and reducing places where people can join the guild and interact with it.
All of your solutions to making people pay is to spend a ton of money, basically, a ton more than what they owe you. By all means, try if you wish, and if you'll have fun trying to make it work, but you could basically do your whole scheme even more easily by keeping track of everything you want to do on a spreadsheet on your computer (and/or on the wiki), instead of using an IG guild. Suddenly: no upkeep, no taxes.
Setting up a bank that isn't meant to just fund realm efforts is a complicated task unlikely to work by itself, but if it is to work, guilds are most definately not a good way to go about.
Guilds' primary use is for coordinating multi-realm military activities. Their secondary use is RP. Guilds with other activities rarely succeed in their aims.
You raise valid points. They're all things to consider when setting this thing up. Nothing so far convinces me that the idea is sure to fail. A lot of the difficulties you raise would've applied to the first real-life banking systems and yet they found ways to make it work.
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 09:40:54 PM
Infiltrators: they tend to charge a lot for their deeds, so bunch of gold down the drain right there. Plus: I've been the target of many infil attacks, never really bothered me all that much. Wounded for a few days? Oh well, I'll just focus on my other characters a little more in the coming days. Usually, though, the attacks just fail, I begin patrolling the streets and the infil is caught soon after. It is no secret that I think very poorly of the infiltrator subclass. Even if you had infils continuously stab me, which I doubt you could, I'd just scoff it off: sooner than later they'll get caught, maybe tortured, banned, and next time their head will roll.
It's a managerial decision how far you're willing to go to collect. You have to weigh the cost of enforcement against the cost of doing nothing. Some small debts might just get written off, but the assumption is that you'd only give loans when there's a reasonable expectation that you'll be able to collect. Even if you don't get back every penny, the use of retaliation would at least be a deterrent.
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 09:40:54 PM
Government members, priests, armies? Really? What do they care for your guild? Even if you had powerful friends in on it, they'd probably never get away with using the realm's resources for your guild's aims.
They'd have to have some sort of stake in the system. They might also be borrowers. You can imagine a situation where a realm needs to build up its military very quickly so they may want to borrow a large amount of gold, and as a banker you could attach certain conditions to the loan.
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 09:40:54 PM
Closing guild houses: This also actually costs gold too. It'd also mean lowering the maximum full member count and reducing places where people can join the guild and interact with it.
There may be a one-time cost associated with closing a guild house, but it would be worth the expenditure if that guild house is causing your bank to lose money.
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 09:40:54 PM
All of your solutions to making people pay is to spend a ton of money, basically, a ton more than what they owe you. By all means, try if you wish, and if you'll have fun trying to make it work, but you could basically do your whole scheme even more easily by keeping track of everything you want to do on a spreadsheet on your computer (and/or on the wiki), instead of using an IG guild. Suddenly: no upkeep, no taxes.
Good suggestion.
One of the noteworthy issues is that the BM context is not analogous to the real world. In real life, banks can get quite powerful because a lot of people NEED/want to use its services. It's safer to deposit your gold at the bank than in your house. This allows the banks to accumulate quite a lot of capital, with which they can grant loans or finance projects. This is not the case in BM. The game already provides banks. At any of the realm's cities, a noble can exchange his gold for bonds, and nothing can touch those bonds. Wealth isn't even taxed anymore as it used to be. And with but minor adjustments and costs, nobles can walk around with tens of thousands of gold on hand, and not seriously risk losing it. As trading is now done in bonds, the banking has already become international. Furthermore, depositing in a bank is safe. Giving anything to anyone in BM is risky. What if the guy goes on vacation for a few weeks and puts his character in cold storage? What if he loses interestest in BM? Or something happens to him IRL? If the player dies, you can't expect his successors to go log into his BM so that they may continue to safeguard the funds to entrusted in his character. In RL banking, something happening to someone at the bank doesn't jeopordize your savings.
I, for one, have seen many players come and go. Often in untimely manners. I would therefore be quite reluctant to give any significant funds to anyone unless I really didn't care to see them back. I also can't say that I've never had so much excess gold that I didn't know what to do with it... The family gold cap is quite high, and that allows you to invest in (your) region, so it's really like a bank too.
Also some valid points though I don't 100% agree with you. Banks don't just provide a safe place to stash your savings. They provide many services like investing and raising capital, and insurance. Like in my earlier example, it can help you build up your army or establish a guild. In the BM context they might be able to provide some kind of food/insurance services too. Maybe not every character will have use for it, but some will.
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 09:40:54 PM
Government members, priests, armies? Really? What do they care for your guild? Even if you had powerful friends in on it, they'd probably never get away with using the realm's resources for your guild's aims.
In your own realm it's just a matter of asking the judge to enforce the oaths of your fellow nobles. If you get cheated through the bank by someone out of realm, well that's where the fun comes in. The more gold we tie up in the bank the more governments will have to bow to our wishes. Suppose we get really well entrenched and a realm judge isn't cooperating, we could expel their entire realm and seize all their assets in the guild. Is it really worth it just cause you're too proud to fine a delinquent debtor?
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 09:40:54 PM
Closing guild houses: This also actually costs gold too. It'd also mean lowering the maximum full member count and reducing places where people can join the guild and interact with it.
No need to close them, just kick out the embezzling region lord. He can then spend his own gold to tear down the guild hall if he's that spiteful.
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 09:40:54 PM
All of your solutions to making people pay is to spend a ton of money, basically, a ton more than what they owe you. By all means, try if you wish, and if you'll have fun trying to make it work, but you could basically do your whole scheme even more easily by keeping track of everything you want to do on a spreadsheet on your computer (and/or on the wiki), instead of using an IG guild. Suddenly: no upkeep, no taxes.
The problem with that is it's impossible to delegate responsibilities because I have no way to keep tabs on my subordinates. If I was just handing out loans myself it would be even easier to cheat me and I have nothing concrete to prove what happened. With a guild every single elder can see the same evidence I do that a branch manager is embezzling.
Quote from: Chénier on January 25, 2014, 09:40:54 PM
Guilds' primary use is for coordinating multi-realm military activities. Their secondary use is RP. Guilds with other activities rarely succeed in their aims.
I'm planning to spread the guild by offering accounts as a way to move money to the front lines. As for role play, people can now role play corrupt bankers.
I'm currently playing with the idea of something similar to this with food. If you could redistribute the food vast distances efficiently, it might be worth the effort.
Quote from: Dishman on January 26, 2014, 02:46:36 AM
I'm currently playing with the idea of something similar to this with food. If you could redistribute the food vast distances efficiently, it might be worth the effort.
It doesn't take a lot of nobles to be able to redistribute food over vast distances. Works great with a few priests, actually, with one priest from realm Y operating in realm Z, and one priest from realm Z operating in realm Y, given both are either lords, stewards, or bankers.
I've approached more rural lords than priests, but I might be fishing the wrong hole. Thanks for the advice.
Quote from: Buffalkill on January 26, 2014, 01:11:57 AM
Also some valid points though I don't 100% agree with you. Banks don't just provide a safe place to stash your savings. They provide many services like investing and raising capital, and insurance. Like in my earlier example, it can help you build up your army or establish a guild. In the BM context they might be able to provide some kind of food/insurance services too. Maybe not every character will have use for it, but some will.
Investing and raising capital make no sense in BM as there are no businesses to invest or raise capital for. Insurance could maybe be done with rural lords, but doesn't make much sense as the only time rurals will really have an issue is during war, meaning they know when to get insurance and it would not be very profitable. If you need a loan, the smart thing to do is just to talk to a duke and not have to worry about upkeep and infrastructure. I liked the idea initially and he can feel free to do it, but I simply don't see a way for it to be successful at all.
Quote from: Dishman on January 26, 2014, 02:53:41 AM
I've approached more rural lords than priests, but I might be fishing the wrong hole. Thanks for the advice.
Priests can travel quicker and do not need to pay for troops to avoid risking bandits (which isn't as big as an advantage as before, but can still be useful). Which means they can stay out of their realm and purchase food indefinately, because being out of one's realm means gold comes in as bonds, which is the new and only currency for food nowadays.
Quote from: Penchant on January 26, 2014, 07:47:04 AM
Investing and raising capital make no sense in BM as there are no businesses to invest or raise capital for. Insurance could maybe be done with rural lords, but doesn't make much sense as the only time rurals will really have an issue is during war, meaning they know when to get insurance and it would not be very profitable. If you need a loan, the smart thing to do is just to talk to a duke and not have to worry about upkeep and infrastructure. I liked the idea initially and he can feel free to do it, but I simply don't see a way for it to be successful at all.
There may not be businesses but there certainly are things worth taking out a loan on, workshops, granaries, fortifications, recruitment centers, region investments, new religions. They all cost money and sometimes you need to pay for them ASAP.
You're correct that right now its easy to get someone to just cough up some dough for you but part of my motivation to make this bank is I want to change the way people in BM treat money. We need more greedy people BM we need more frugal people in BM. I want dukes to stop handing out 100 gold to whomever asks because they need that money to pay off that loan they took out in order to upgrade their fortifications during the last war.
Quote from: pcw27 on January 27, 2014, 12:27:23 AM
There may not be businesses but there certainly are things worth taking out a loan on, workshops, granaries, fortifications, recruitment centers, region investments, new religions. They all cost money and sometimes you need to pay for them ASAP.
You're correct that right now its easy to get someone to just cough up some dough for you but part of my motivation to make this bank is I want to change the way people in BM treat money. We need more greedy people BM we need more frugal people in BM. I want dukes to stop handing out 100 gold to whomever asks because they need that money to pay off that loan they took out in order to upgrade their fortifications during the last war.
I believe there's a lengthy entry about this time of behavior in the background section. Handing out gifts to people is a display of prestige that fully fits the era. It's also politically rewarding.
It's hard to incite people to be greedy when the players (and even the characters) enjoy the same quality of life regardless of how much gold the characters have. Nobody ever has to chose between the comforts of a luxurious life and charity, because in BM, the comforts of a luxurious life are only charged to adventurers.
Quote from: Chénier on January 27, 2014, 12:32:36 AM
I believe there's a lengthy entry about this time of behavior in the background section. Handing out gifts to people is a display of prestige that fully fits the era. It's also politically rewarding.
But that by no means meant no noble ever needed money and couldn't get it. Feudalism was not a gift economy which is what Battle Master often turns into.
Quote from: Chénier on January 27, 2014, 12:32:36 AM
It's hard to incite people to be greedy when the players (and even the characters) enjoy the same quality of life regardless of how much gold the characters have. Nobody ever has to chose between the comforts of a luxurious life and charity, because in BM, the comforts of a luxurious life are only charged to adventurers.
Are you kidding? That's the purest greed there is. Do you think billionaires make billions to pay for their personal luxuries? By the time they reached a hundred million dollars they could already afford more luxuries then they could ever possibly enjoy. The rest of it's all about the pride of accumulating wealth, the thrill of seeing what you can create. That's the kind of greed I want to see in Battle Master, senseless, proud uncharitable greed.
There is infinitely less things to spend wealth on in BM than in the real world. You can probably count it on your hands.
It doesn't mean that there are never cases where nobles don't have as much gold as they'd want, but it does mean that overall, characters have drastically lower needs for loans than RL ones might have, because they are both wealthier and have less things to spend that wealth on.
Quote from: Chénier on January 27, 2014, 01:20:41 AM
There is infinitely less things to spend wealth on in BM than in the real world. You can probably count it on your hands.
It doesn't mean that there are never cases where nobles don't have as much gold as they'd want, but it does mean that overall, characters have drastically lower needs for loans than RL ones might have, because they are both wealthier and have less things to spend that wealth on.
That's where salesmenship comes in. What ever those few things are it's my creditor and branch manager's jobs to make them believe they NEED to buy whatever it is we want to give them a loan for.