I've been noticing a recurring problem with cavalry charges. Namely, if the enemy unit is three lines away from a cavalry unit and moves forward one line, that friendly cavalry unit will move forward two lines and hit the enemy without charging. It seems particularly common when fighting monsters/undead for some reason, but happens in normal battles too. From a common sense perspective, it's a bit off. Cavalry don't just wander forward until they walk into an enemy unit; they'll see the enemy from a distance and charge into them.
An example from a recent battle:
(47-P) (22-I) (21-I)
(21-C) (23-I) (5-I)
(16-I) EMPTY (2-I)
(17-I) LINE (15-I)
(60-I) (34-I)
(11-A) (32-I)
(21-I) (11-S)
Personal Bodyguard (6) ride on, closing in on the defenders.
Broken Crowns (1), Peasant Militia (5), Copper Guard (2), Zarius Zurelions (9), Iron Guard (4), Secret Pumas (7) and Front Liners (3) advance towards the enemy.
Knights Of Anhanger (11), Royal Caesarion Greatswordsmen (12), Chosen Meliorist Swordsmen (10), ~~V~~ (16), The Wolves (15), The Cohort of Purification (14) and The Cobalt Guard (13) advance towards the enemy.
Close Combat (Center Line):
Personal Bodyguard (6) score 314 hits on The Cobalt Guard (13). - That's definitely not charge damage from a 420 CS cavalry unit.
Could a change be implemented that makes cavalry move last, so the game can determine if enemy units will be in charge range this battle turn and so allow cavalry to charge, rather than walking into the enemy and doing a normal attack.
Quote from: Velax on May 22, 2011, 04:38:59 PM
Could a change be implemented that makes cavalry move last, so the game can determine if enemy units will be in charge range this battle turn and so allow cavalry to charge, rather than walking into the enemy and doing a normal attack.
That would sadly create another problem, if the cavalry is one line away, then the enemy will move onto them, and the cavalry will then not move and therefore not charge.
This is a problem, though, I've seen it before, and recently had to tell my marshal that we really didn't want those line settings, because it meant our cavalry would not get a charge bonus (and since about a quarter of our CS was cavalry, this is pretty important). If this could somehow be fixed, I would love the devs forever.
Alright then, here's a better fix:
Did cavalry move this turn?
Yes
Charge
No
Did cavalry move last turn?
Yes
Was cavalry involved in close combat last turn?
Yes
No charge
No
Charge
No
No charge
Or:
Did the cavalry unit land a hit yet?
Yes: No charge bonus.
No: Charge bonus.
Simpler?
Quote from: Chénier on May 24, 2011, 07:22:45 AM
Or:
Did the cavalry unit land a hit yet?
Yes: No charge bonus.
No: Charge bonus.
Simpler?
Cavalry can charge multiple times per battle -- basically, they are supposed to charge any time they have moved and engage in combat on the same turn.
Quote from: Velax on May 22, 2011, 04:38:59 PM
(47-P) (22-I) (21-I)
(21-C) (23-I) (5-I)
(16-I) EMPTY (2-I)
(17-I) LINE (15-I)
(60-I) (34-I)
(11-A) (32-I)
(21-I) (11-S)
Personal Bodyguard (6) ride on, closing in on the defenders.
Broken Crowns (1), Peasant Militia (5), Copper Guard (2), Zarius Zurelions (9), Iron Guard (4), Secret Pumas (7) and Front Liners (3) advance towards the enemy.
Knights Of Anhanger (11), Royal Caesarion Greatswordsmen (12), Chosen Meliorist Swordsmen (10), ~~V~~ (16), The Wolves (15), The Cohort of Purification (14) and The Cobalt Guard (13) advance towards the enemy.
Close Combat (Center Line):
Personal Bodyguard (6) score 314 hits on The Cobalt Guard (13).
The problem is that the cavalry advanced two rows, arrived in the center, and then the infantry advanced to meet them. That's not a charge--think of the battle of Helm's deep, when Gandalf arrived--now THAT is a charge!
The problem with the scenario above is that the cavalry were set to aggressive, which forces them to advance two rows. They did so, but they didn't end up in a row occupied by the enemy at the beginning of the turn--thus, no charge into the waiting lances. The infantry advanced to meet the cavalry, in other words.
I think setting the cavalry to normal may have corrected this--not sure.
Assuming that a fix is possible, it would be the following logic:
If the enemy is on your line, attack
If the enemy is 1 space away, charge
If the enemy is 2 spaces away, charge
If the enemy is 3 spaces away, advance 1 row
Otherwise, advance 2 rows
Quote from: egamma on May 25, 2011, 08:11:24 PM
The problem is that the cavalry advanced two rows, arrived in the center, and then the infantry advanced to meet them. That's not a charge--think of the battle of Helm's deep, when Gandalf arrived--now THAT is a charge!
You need to remember that in reality, units don't move in turns. Cavalry don't advance 10 metres, stop and then wait for the enemy infantry to walk into them. It would be a continual walk/trot/gallop/whatever that would be increased to a charge as soon as the enemy were in range.
I don't see what the problem is with using the logic, "If cavalry moved this turn, give charge bonus. If cavalry moved last turn but did not attack, give charge bonus." It's pretty simple.
On a side note: if an infantry unit is moving when charged upon, wouldn't it logically suffer more damage? No matter how well organised, just marching will cause the formation to be less effective (perhaps this is just Total War bias though :) )
this looks as reinventing wheel to me.
game about how cavalry will charge and will it charge at all i remember from two years time.
there is a way how you can try to make your cavalry charge, but there is the way enemy marshal can attempt to prevent it, and that is battle of marshals wills and skills, not something that devs should resolve implementing automatism. that was actually one of the most thrilling parts of battle preparations. marshals and generals have to assume what other side will do and adjust their settings accordingly, but battle will show what was actually implemented, and nonone can guarantee that things will go way how you imagined them
i will recall some important remark from previous days of d-list: "cavalry charge" is only name of marshals formation which provides specific position of different troops, it does not guarantee the charge, not a single charge in battle, all depends on circumstances.
i am willing to offer one advice only, all the rest comes on you to discover it: to attempt some very specific results you plan for some battle, sometimes there is no formation that will achieve that, you need to go with troop settings but without formation.
You're missing the point entirely. It makes no sense for cavalry to stand still and wait for enemy infantry to walk into them. Why would that ever happen? Please, give me an example of any battle in history where a unit of cavalry saw the enemy, then deliberately stopped and let that enemy just walk into them without even trying to charge first, without there being some sort of greater motive or trap behind it.
Messing around with marshal settings to try to fix this is just a work around for a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.
i think that you are missing the point of charge a bit.
you clearly described that cavalry moved two rows, so why you are saying now that they stand still?
they moved two rows, but did not reach the enemy, so they were unable to charge, therefore everything works completely as intended and known.
you have to understand that charge has to happen within that two-row movement, if there is nobody on their way, poor cavalrymen can only enter normal melee. you cannot have additional one row movement within the same turn, as that would be three-row charge.
But during a battle they don't move in turns. It's not like everyone stands still and then goes 'Archers shoot now please', 'ok they all fired their bows, now you can move'. It all happens continuously. In one turn Cavalry can move two rows yes, but that doesn't mean they then stop moving and wait till everyone else is done and the turn is over. The turns are merely a way for the game to represent what happens in battles as they progress. In one turn, Cavalry can move at a speed of two rows. In reality, Cavalry would never stop moving. They simply can't go faster then two rows / turn. If they travel three rows then that takes them two turns, but during that movement they never come to an halt, even if an Infantry unit moves up. That Infantry unit would still meet the Cavalry while it's charging across the battlefield. That's what is trying to be said.
Quote from: Telrunya on May 28, 2011, 10:45:33 PM
But during a battle they don't move in turns. It's not like everyone stands still and then goes 'Archers shoot now please', 'ok they all fired their bows, now you can move'. It all happens continuously. In one turn Cavalry can move two rows yes, but that doesn't mean they then stop moving and wait till everyone else is done and the turn is over. The turns are merely a way for the game to represent what happens in battles as they progress. In one turn, Cavalry can move at a speed of two rows. In reality, Cavalry would never stop moving. They simply can't go faster then two rows / turn. If they travel three rows then that takes them two turns, but during that movement they never come to an halt, even if an Infantry unit moves up. That Infantry unit would still meet the Cavalry while it's charging across the battlefield. That's what is trying to be said.
True, but what he is saying is that it is not counting for a charge in the first place, so it seems like the cavalry just waited for the infantry to engage with them.
No, Telrunya is saying the same thing as me. Cavalry don't actually stop between turns; they're still moving. But the game treats them as having stopped, so they lose their charge when another unit walks into them.
Quote from: Telrunya on May 28, 2011, 10:45:33 PM
But during a battle they don't move in turns. It's not like everyone stands still and then goes 'Archers shoot now please', 'ok they all fired their bows, now you can move'. It all happens continuously. In one turn Cavalry can move two rows yes, but that doesn't mean they then stop moving and wait till everyone else is done and the turn is over. The turns are merely a way for the game to represent what happens in battles as they progress. In one turn, Cavalry can move at a speed of two rows. In reality, Cavalry would never stop moving. They simply can't go faster then two rows / turn. If they travel three rows then that takes them two turns, but during that movement they never come to an halt, even if an Infantry unit moves up. That Infantry unit would still meet the Cavalry while it's charging across the battlefield. That's what is trying to be said.
?! Every troop stops moving at every turn, that is what turns are, and each turn is resolved by itself, beginning where previous turn stopped what you describe as continuous movement would be some animated real-time battle that has nothing to do with bm.
But in actuality a battle would be continuous. You wouldn't have the battlefield neatly divided by lines and troops only moving one line at a time and then waiting till the Archers took their turn. The turn system is just a way for BM to show the battle as it progresses, a representation of it.
It's like you take a photo or pause the battle every minute (one turn) and then describe what happens. Then you wait another minute and take another photo / pause the battle (another turn), and you describe the effects again. The Cavalry will only have moved two rows of distance between two photos, but they will still show to be moving on the photo.
Stue, if you're still not getting it, I don't think anyone can explain it any better to you. How about we say some of us believe the cavalry charge system is faulty and leave it at that.
Again this is an instance where either massive changes, not only to cavalry, are needed to account for continuous battles, or we keep the current system out of simplicity and gameplay.
Quote from: Foundation on May 29, 2011, 05:15:44 PM
Again this is an instance where either massive changes, not only to cavalry, are needed to account for continuous battles, or we keep the current system out of simplicity and gameplay.
Is that really true? I could see a simple charging/not charging field applying to cavalry. It seems this would do the trick.
Why should Cavalry be special? Why can't infantry spill damage from one round to the other if they fight small units? Why can't archers shoot the enemy as they approach? Why can't MI make decisions better as a continuum rather than per turn?
Because "spilling damage" from one turn to the next is not the sole reason people get infantry. It's not even a blip on the radar. The charge bonus <I>is</I> the sole reason people get cavalry, aside from perhaps RP reasons.
Secondly, spilling damage is an ability that infantry have never had. Charging is an ability cavalry have always had, but it does not work correctly. There's a difference.
oh, I always assumed it was a feature that Cavalry weren't guaranteed to charge. Much like DC said I always assumed that the positioning of them to get an effective charge was part of the challenge for the marshal/troop leader.
And the movement bonus, and the jousting experience, and the inability to dig in, and the inability to do anything against walls unless they have infantry siege support.
But seriously, cavalry as they are now have a nasty charge that can be devastating if done correctly. They are basically the knockout punch, so if you didn't knock the guy out then you hopefully have some contingency plan. To allow cavalry to have more than one charge might skew open field battles a bit too far towards cavalry. That might mean open fields use cavalry going against cavalry, in which case typical metagame evolution means people will try to counter with long range archers and special forces behind box formation infantry. Then that means a counter for that, possibly heavy infantry line. Then we go back to heavy cavalry charge, and so on.
It's ok for a cycle, but it just might lead to some unforeseen balance alterations. Cavalry as they are now seem to be pretty good and are clear in their purpose. If used correctly they can be the big power finisher. They could also serve as a strong opening to breach a hole for the infantry to mop up. But that is their purpose, and they serve it well.
Cavalry can already charge more than once, I'm 99% sure. They just need enough room to build up speed.
Two spaces seems to be the number. That would mean they could charge into the frontlines, then possibly charge the ranged units behind them.
If I remember correctly, and I may not, the time I saw it was when cavalry had hit the infantry rank, and while they were fighting some infantry broke through to the archers, which then fell back to try to run away from the infantry, so when the cav finished up the front line they charged into the fleeing archers.
I don't understand where, anywhere, I was asking for cavalry to be able to charge more than once a battle, particularly seeing as they already can. They don't need to be two lines away to do it - they can charge if the enemy is only one line away.
The major issue here is that if cavalry is three lines away from infantry/archers and both units move forward, they will engage in close combat and the cavalry does not get a charge bonus. That makes no sense. Both units were moving, both units hit each other but no charge bonus.
Critical distance exceeded, horses too tired to charge.
They can charge the next turn if circumstances permit, or the turn after that or the turn after that, or the 15th turn after having fought in melee combat for 10 rounds. Try another argument.
I've always thought about it like this, a turn is the shortest period of time within which it is practical for orders for a unit to be given. Now if we assume cav does not move around at charging speed at all times, then in this case, since the unit is out of charging range we advance. However those damn red coats also advance, quick issue orders to charge, I'm sorry my Lord the distance is now to close to build up to charging speed, etc.
That's actually a reasonable explanation, but it's not one I personally agree with. I still think this is an error that should be fixed.
I'm not sure why some people are so against this. How fast would people complain if your infantry sometimes decided not to use their siege engines because they started in the middle line rather than the front line? Or if archers just randomly moved forward into melee instead of firing? Oh, wait, what? That does happen? And it's being fixed? (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,604.msg9937.html#msg9937)
Quote from: Velax on May 30, 2011, 07:51:13 AM
That's actually a reasonable explanation, but it's not one I personally agree with. I still think this is an error that should be fixed.
I'm not sure why some people are so against this. How fast would people complain if your infantry sometimes decided not to use their siege engines because they started in the middle line rather than the front line? Or if archers just randomly moved forward into melee instead of firing? Oh, wait, what? That does happen? And it's being fixed? (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,604.msg9937.html#msg9937)
Because at the moment, the system allows us to counter cavalry if we plan carefully and have some luck. Otherwise the game risks breaking down into specialised forces. Mass Cavalry for any open field battles, and mass infantry for defence/siege work. That in turn only encourages people to violate the IA and try to order people to recruit the unit types they need in order to be effective.
Quote from: Velax on May 30, 2011, 07:24:12 AM
They can charge the next turn if circumstances permit, or the turn after that or the turn after that, or the 15th turn after having fought in melee combat for 10 rounds. Try another argument.
You never played those games where bullets have their own black holes they summon on the ground underneath them, forming a region of infinite gravitational force once their maximum range has been reached, have you? So when you aim for the head and the target is one centimeter out of range, it hits nothing (Presumably the ground, or it gets sucked into that black hole it created). Moving forward by a centimeter and firing at the same spot hits the target precisely where you aimed. It's actually pretty common in some early 21st century FPS games.
I decided to add it into this part as a gag. Obviously it makes less logical sense, but sometimes game mechanics skew the laws of the universe to entertaining results. And I do find it entertaining to imagine a bunch of horses going strong for those two spaces, however long that is in our real world units of position. Then once they reach the border of their charge range the horses suddenly brake to a stop and give a disgruntled neigh, the message being "Heck no, we carried you this far. Our union doesn't pay us to go any further than two spaces for a charge attack. Go fight in close combat you lazy human."
Cavalry can charge multiple times, 100% true, Matt. 8)
Quote from: Foundation on May 30, 2011, 09:29:53 PMCavalry can charge multiple times, 100% true, Matt. 8)
And they can charge forward a single row, too. They don't *need* two lines to charge, but they *can* charge two lines. I'm pretty sure they can turn around, and charge back, as well, if they destroy the enemy's back ranks before the front rank all dies.
We all know the combat system is imperfect. I accept that the positioning of cavalry to avoid the situation described by the OP is a vital part of good tactical planning for a marshal. The combat system is a huge abstraction from anything approaching a real medieval battle. That means that things aren't going to always make sense, but if you accept it for what it is, it has its own tactical ins and outs that are inherent to the rules it operates under. One of those rules is that cavalry will only charge on their turn, and then only if an enemy is in range. Smart marshals plan extensively around that fact.