Hey guys. In Fissoa there was a bit of discussion going on today on the current conflict. Many players feel the war doesn't provide any entertainment or inspiration, and some are even frustrated by how things are developing on an OOC level. Claims of unfair advantages in Luria Nova become more frequent, and though they might be unfounded, they express a very real disappointment in what is happening at the moment. I also have to admit the whole conflict has been the most boring I have been in in BM, though that's also because Skyndarbau is old and slow nowadays. And how are things for players in Swordfell, Morek, D'Hara, ...?
Anyways,
I was wondering if players in Luria Nova feel the same way. Are you enjoying this war? Does it provide interesting storylines, fun battles or memorable events? Of course the whole LN vs the World is more interesting than Fissoa's 'let's try for weeks to get a joint strike coordinated and then travel for a week with no result', but still - I am genuinly curious.
Consider this to be an open question to create some new dynamics. Feel free to contact me IG through IC or OOC means if you want to set something up. If nothing changes, I fear half of Fissoa's nobles will leave the realm or worse the game at some point, so if the same is happening in other realms, now seems a good time to take action.
It is always fun to smash enemies who are disorganized. Also, enemies come to Luria's door not the other way around. When your enemies show up to be smashed, things always feel awesome 8)
Quote from: Lapallanch on November 26, 2014, 12:11:16 PM
It is always fun to smash enemies who are disorganized. Also, enemies come to Luria's door not the other way around. When your enemies show up to be smashed, things always feel awesome 8)
With Barca gone at least Luria will be a little close to Fissoa... Still I feel this ordeal would have been a lot more interesting if Barca had managed to gain Shinnen as a bridgehead.
I was just writing a rant in another threat but it'd fit better here. So:
<rant>
...
Which brings me to moving on: the idea that Luria will remain the behemoth it is now without the whole world ganging up on us is doubly stupid. We've got factions in our realm, not in the least factions who want their own realm. All you're doing with your continued invasion is uniting the factions of a historically divisive realm and melting the foreign elements together with real Lurian factions. Luria has about the best geography on the continent, it can't be denied, but it's also very isolated from everyone else if they leave us alone. Imagine Luria fighting aggressive wars, we've got exactly the same issues you're all dealing with.
So, if you want more fun, in stead of trying to get us to just give up stuff for no sane reason, how about you get creative and look for other things to do? Maybe strike a pact with the so-called evil Empire that goes beyond "we want your land for our friends despite having plenty ourselves and not being capable of taking yours as was our first impulse".
Luria's population will thin out given the opportunity to create new realms. Yes, your realm may be the victim of such a colonization but isn't more realms in empty spaces and a weaker Luria exactly what everybody wants?
</rant>
Now to answer your actual question. Yes, the war is fun in Luria. I'm constantly traveling between Poryatown and Shinnen defending my realm from Morek's invaders and defending/pushing back all the rest around Barca's stronghold. Yes, with Aveston lost you've lost that safe entry point and I imagine that without being able to go on the aggressive for constant fear of invasion and just endlessly beating back those invaders, the war will become less interesting for Luria as well.
What I don't get however are the OOC complaints about the war not being fun in combination with the stubborn IC mentality of sticking to your standpoint and refusing to do anything about it. Your characters have now experienced Luria's isolation firsthand, maybe that'd give them reason to be less afraid of the imperialists and get them thinking about signing a favorable peace with the Empire in stead of feverishly sticking to the all vs one pact you got going. Or whatever else you can cook up. Be creative. Do something else.
Good points, though I don't understand where the bile is coming from. I'm not your opponent in this issue. The only thing that worries me would be seeing Luria Nova fragment into smaller pieces, but still being a close-knit Empire on a higher level. We've seen Luria Vesperi and Solaria, and from my point of view the only difference between those and one large realm was that there were suddenly 3 capitals under one ruler. I'm not interested in seeing LN split up in name and form a federation instead with the same goals and interests.
Still, Luria Nova is the elephant in the room. As long as the behemoth stands, none of the other realms can ignore it. The only things that will really change what is happening are
1 Luria fragments itself somehow so the conflict can depolarise. One fragment fights Fissoa, another D'Hara or Morek etc. creating a more dynamic scene for diplomatic development
2 Crazily enough the allied forces somehow forget about Luria Nova in their backyard and persue other goals (say recolonising the West or attacking another ally). But then what? All Luria Nova will do is pile onto D'Hara or Fissoa, or disband into three realms which will then pile onto D'Hara or Fissoa together, as has happened in the past.
I'll see what I can cook up from my end. Is there any possibility of Fissoa and parts of Luria allying against a common enemy like SA? Will the Order of the White Rose offer a viable cooperation between Lurian and Fissoan nobles to go from, without becoming a Lurian puppet itself?
Basically the allies cannot afford to continue the war. But they cannot afford to not continue, either. Either way, I feel Luria has the key to unlock this mess.
I am having fun on the Lurian side. When I joined up I was expecting Luria to lose (I only knew itwas everyone against Luria and that is usualy a losing proposition) and was a bit disappointed at how evenly matched things were. I love playing in a dying realm. I almost switched to Barca a little while ago but could not think if a good IC reason for my character to switch. He is too damn loyal right now. And now Barca is all but dead.
At the same time, I have somewhat come to appreciate the seeming balance. So far Dwilight has been seeing a lot of battles. There have been times in which I was confident Luria would hold it's own and there have been times when I was sure Luria was doomed. As long as the balance stays the battles can continue. As soon as one side "wins" then comes the dreaded peace...
I am secretly hoping that all the refugee nobles in Luria will finally realize they'll never be granted an independent realm and start a rebellion/bite a chunk off of Morek/go back to Maroccidens on a glorious Reconquista! >:]
Well, the forum is a public space, and the latest news that reached me from Fissoa was an OOC argument that the war was no fun because you're losing and /Luria/ should do something about it. That kind of thinking got me riled up a little. Especially since throughout these last months Luria has NOT been sending harsh peace terms to anyone. And those that were sent fell on deaf ears. And still somehow it's our fault that you're stuck in a no-fun war that we're actually trying not to keep you stuck in.
So yes, you're all feeling threatened by Luria. However as I've explained, the behemoth you fear is one you are sustaining.
Besides, when is the last time that Luria declared war on Fissoa? The last aggressive intent shown towards you was years back when you got involved in our civil war, were beaten and accepted a few terms, which were later softened, evidenced by Skyndarbau's remaining presence in Fissoa. That was the last sign that we'd wish to militarily force your inclusion in our designs.
What about Morek? They are the behemoth fighting the behemoth preemptively.
Astrum? Just helping their ally because they've got nothing else to do.
The only realm on Dwilight with actual reason to fear for their lives in the face of this behemoth that is Luria is D'Hara. So kudos to them for convincing everyone else to fight for them.
Even Barca was offered ways out, obviously not by remaining in lands that are historical Lurian.
I'm not saying Luria will split up in smaller realms inside our territory. We did it before and it didn't really work very well. A realm like LV had literally no prospect. Turning against Luria was a dead-sentence and everything else was too far away to touch with their resources. It's basically the position Barca would've been in had they succeeded in taking Shinnen. However that's not at all what I meant with being a divisive realm. Thanks to our isolation, there's not many other options than to have conflicts between ourselves. Just not when we're under attack by the entire continent and got actual reasons to unite.
The point is, Luria is not a threat to EVERYONE. Give us space to colonize, and we will. Sign peace with us and we won't colonize your lands. The whole reason Luria is as strong as it is now is because of all the nobles in it, if we were not attacked by the entire continent, we wouldn't want to keep all those nobles in our realm. Maybe more importantly, not all those nobles would want to stay. The threat would be relieved.
Yes, Luria would remain close to an impenetrable fortress as it has always been but our offensive punch would be strongly diminished. Sure, we could still show up with 15-20k every 3 weeks in Fissoa if we really wanted to, but is that going to bring down your realm? I strongly doubt it. And if we did so, it'd leave big gaping holes in that so-called impenetrable fortress.
Of course, if you ally with the whole continent and then don't want to break any alliances forcing you to keep fighting us... then you'll just have to win to get what you want.
Hey! This is an OOC thread so get out of character. :D
I don't believe my colleagues were piling all the blame on Luria. They just have certain concerns and wanted to involve players of the entire continent in solving our common issues. I think it's a decent and constructive move.
I'm not in character. If I was in character I'd be saying something like "BURN EVERYTHING! START WITH SWORDFELL!". I am however giving you a solution from the perspective of Lurian victory while the solutions I've seen offered so far (not only in this thread) are those thought up for scenario's in which Luria's defeated.
That said, I would love to see more balance restored to Dwilight, and the best way to do that would be to take some 20 "Lurian" nobles and colonize a space in the North somewhere. Not by splitting up Luria or sticking an eternal enemy in Lurian lands. Neither would solve anything. Luria would either just work together in the face of the ongoing threat or have an even greater noble density and a weak nemesis. However, for colonization to be possible, the war needs to be (mostly) over.
To OP:
I've had a talk with some Fissoan and League people in general OOC through IM. There has been a discussion internally in Luria also.
That you mention the White Rose for me is a big plume on my hat and know that I strive for global player enjoyment. Perhaps some of that shimmers through with my letters, Rp's and random interactions. Anyhow, I'd like to find solutions and get things moving ahead. I would like to avoid losing players from any realm and retain a high(er) population on Dwilight. How to actually achieve that is very much in the air as many possibilities are workable, although not all preferred or enjoy broad support.
Anyhow, avoiding letting a new spark fuel a heated debate, I support resolution. Keep up the good work Shizzle.
(Aldrakar)
If your war is boring, then do something else. Make peace with Luria, and go attack someone else. Say... get mad at D'Hara for involving you in an endless, unwinnable war. Ally with Luria and go march on D'Hara.
Or split your realm into pieces, and fight among yourselves.
Or turn your back on the whole mess, and go reconquer some of the western lands.
Hold a realm-wide joke contest, and reward the winner with a new duchy. (Or promise to, then renege at the last minute saying the whole thing was a meta-joke!)
Just because you're doing something right now doesn't mean you have to keep doing it. Especially if what you're doing is boring/annoying. You don't have to win a war before you stop fighting it. You don't have to write some brilliant treaty that takes away half your enemy's lands in order to declare peace.
And if you exit the war, and Luria comes marching to you, then you can defend your homelands while Luria is the one that has to suffer the long boring marches to bring the attack to you.
Remember: You as a player are responsible for your own enjoyment of the game. No one else is responsible for making the game fun for you. If it's not fun, then make whatever changes you need to make it fun. That may include exiting a war on unfavorable conditions, leaving the realm you are in, and heading to another. Or pausing your current character, then starting a new one in that realm with a new concept.
As for myself, I just rejoined Dwilight with a new character in Morek, after taking a long break from the island. I don't really have any stake in matters yet. Except to say this: Holy Crap! Morek is a friggn' ghost town!
For such a big realm Luria sure likes to use kick people when they are already down :p
Seriously though, was it really necessary to try and assassinate me? I'm flattered :)
Also I'm really curious, what the heck was that magic spell that was cast before the attack on Aveston? Obviously IC I have no idea, but I am really curious about the use of magic in BM and would love to know more via PM.
QuoteGive us space to colonize, and we will. Sign peace with us and we won't colonize your lands.
There is literally nowhere to colonize unless you invade someone, afaik the west continent is still swarmed with monsters.
I still think that the biggest problem with Dwilight is the map design and lack of realms, although yes Morek and Luria breaking up a bit would help alleviate the second problem. Another issue is there isn't a whole lot to do in peace time unless you are an active RPer, so people will end up getting bored of peace pretty soon and who the heck is a nation like Fissoa going to attack? They basically can choose between Luria, D'Hara and Swordfell I guess. Astrum and Morek are pretty far away.
As for how boring the war is for everyone else, try being in Barca... things really stagnated. I had no idea what two of our Suffetes were doing if they did anything at all and everyone seemed to be waiting for someone else to do something. I'm still not sure why anyone aside from a couple of less than great players voted for one of them. What a bad choice that was.
QuoteHold a realm-wide joke contest, and reward the winner with a new duchy. (Or promise to, then renege at the last minute saying the whole thing was a meta-joke!)
Would that break SMA?
Quote from: Ossan on November 26, 2014, 06:32:09 PM
... have you looked at the map of Dwilight recently? There is literally nowhere to colonize unless you invade someone, afaik the west continent is still swarmed with monsters.
As far as I know Fissoa, D'Hara, Astrum and Morek have not merged into one indivisible entity. North has room for more realms - in the interest of making Dwilight more fun - so North is where I'd preferably start a colony. And yes, that means invading someone up North.
It is as far as I can see the only way to break the stagnation of the North and weaken Luria, unless of course you beat Luria. And even then, the North will still be one mega-blob + the blob's best buddy.
The only issue is that having an invasion to the north would be the same as having the invasion from the western island to the eastern island, the distance and lack of ability to refit would cause the whole thing to crash and burn, especially since there is no quick way north aside from sea lanes which would grow expensive and increase the potential of a disorganized invading force. Unless of course Swordfell opened up their borders to allow people in the south to skip around the giant desert and mountain ranges, but then you still will arrive with high equipment damage only to run into giant stacks of militia.
Quote from: Ossan on November 26, 2014, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: Indirik on November 26, 2014, 06:27:14 PM
Hold a realm-wide joke contest, and reward the winner with a new duchy. (Or promise to, then renege at the last minute saying the whole thing was a meta-joke!)
Would that break SMA?
Honestly, I think it would.
Quote from: vonGenf on November 26, 2014, 10:39:09 PM
Would that break SMA?
Honestly, I think it would.
How? The whims of certain nobles and Kings are well known. There are reasons that some rulers earn the moniker of The Mad.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 26, 2014, 11:23:45 PM
How? The whims of certain nobles and Kings are well known. There are reasons that some rulers earn the moniker of The Mad.
If you're RPed as mad, sure.
Just doing on a whim and then claim it's a meta-joke does not work. I'm pretty sure the whole meta- thing is thoroughly modern.
But, hey, I guess someone could do it right and prove me wrong!
Honestly tired of the Lurians claiming all is fine just because everything after the invasion benefited them. or that the people compaining have no basis in fact (I've been keeping track of how many people still play Dwilight, It went from being one of the most popular continents to possibly the least), despite my thread having proof that the population density issue wasn't solved by the monster invasion.
Just because Luria isn´t giving you toys, they are the bad guys? What do they need to do, lose battles to make it more fun for you? The only reason Luria is the realm it's today is because of the effort of the nobles in it and perhaps the lack of effort of the other realms. Do you want an end to this war? A grand restructure of Dwilight? Talk IC and plan there. Only your imagination is limiting you.
I'm honestly tired of the fact that some people can't get over the reality that what happened, happened. And that constantly whining about it, or pointing out that they knew better all along, isn't adding anything positive or constructive to the discussion.
A problem was identified.
A plan was made.
Action was taken.
Maybe some other plan would have been better. Maybe not.
But what i do know, is that so long as your sole contribution to the discussion consists of "you screwed up, i was right all along", then two things are going to happen:
1: you will continue to be part if the problem, and not the solution
2: people will continue to ignore you
What happened cannot be undone, even if it was decided that what happened was not the right course if action. What remains to be seen is if some additional action can be taken that will have a positive affect.
So, please try to focus on what we can do going forward.
Quote from: Indirik on November 27, 2014, 01:15:13 AM
I'm honestly tired of the fact that some people can't get over the reality that what happened, happened. And that constantly whining about it, or pointing out that they knew better all along, isn't adding anything positive or constructive to the discussion.
A problem was identified.
A plan was made.
Action was taken.
Maybe some other plan would have been better. Maybe not.
But what i do know, is that so long as your sole contribution to the discussion consists of "you screwed up, i was right all along", then two things are going to happen:
1: you will continue to be part if the problem, and not the solution
2: people will continue to ignore you
What happened cannot be undone, even if it was decided that what happened was not the right course if action. What remains to be seen is if some additional action can be taken that will have a positive affect.
So, please try to focus on what we can do going forward.
Fully agree. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, except that it does not necessarily allow you to fix past mistakes, just inform future actions. There were perhaps better solutions, but such things are frankly Theory craft, since the only way to prove a better outcome would entail altering the past. What we should be focusing on is not the failures of the invasions, but what can be done to correct existing problems that still persist as well as problems introduced by the changes.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 27, 2014, 01:49:46 AM
Fully agree. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, except that it does not necessarily allow you to fix past mistakes, just inform future actions. There were perhaps better solutions, but such things are frankly Theory craft, since the only way to prove a better outcome would entail altering the past. What we should be focusing on is not the failures of the invasions, but what can be done to correct existing problems that still persist as well as problems introduced by the changes.
The problem is that it wasn't hindsight. We had the information available at the time, and several of us WARNED the devs that doing this on Dwilight was HORRIBLE idea. They didn't listen to us, and !@#$ hit the !@#$ing fan. We tried informing future actions, but people refused to !@#$ing listen. So don't give me this tired, thought-terminating bull!@#$.
Jesus Christ, man. Do you realize that you basically are constantly repeating the same thing in every thread?
We've got your point, what are you trying to achieve by rubbing it in? (I'm genuinely curious to hear the answer, btw)
Quote from: Constantine on November 27, 2014, 02:29:39 AM
Jesus Christ, man. Do you realize that you basically are constantly repeating the same thing in every thread?
We've got your point, what are you trying to achieve by rubbing it in? (I'm genuinely curious to hear the answer, btw)
No, just replying to the people claiming it's conjecture rather than based on fact.
Well people were disagreeing with all the plans. It was between Closing down an entire island - could have been Dwilight since Tom hates it, or closing a part of every island. The latter was chosen as less people were arguing against it.
The execution could have been better though.
Anyway, like many said, there are way more productive ways to discuss this. What problems are still there and what are the new problems that came with the changes?
Quote from: GundamMerc on November 27, 2014, 03:47:24 AM
No, just replying to the people claiming it's conjecture rather than based on fact.
It was conjecture, informed conjecture sure, but none of us are prophet. There were good arguments supporting both and as was inevitable one analysis proved correct.
Statements about conjecture however refer more to alternatives. We know the results of what we did, we can guess at the results of alternatives. There were alternatives that perhaps would have left Dwilight better off, at costs to other continents, just as the system that was implemented was going to in the end affect some realms more then others. No plan was going to satisfy everyone, because lets face it the end goal was not exactly someone anyone WANTED to happen.
But again, so what. No one has a magic wand. Even if the changes where repelled and someone edited the DB to return the lost realms you aren't getting those players back. What we can do is improve the current situation to a)Keep the players that have stuck around and b)attract new/old players to the game
Quote from: GundamMerc on November 27, 2014, 02:15:06 AM
The problem is that it wasn't hindsight. We had the information available at the time, and several of us WARNED the devs that doing this on Dwilight was HORRIBLE idea.
No one *knew* what would happen. It's quite possible that had we shut down the east, that we'd be in the same situation as we ended up in. It's possible that everyone who played in the east would quit/leave. And then the west could have easily flopped. Or could have failed to defend themselves against an eastern invasion, which would alter whatever atmosphere you thought you had there, and everyone could have quit anyway. Or the geography could have been wrong to sustain active warfare.
So no,you didn't *know* what would have happened. You had a theory about what might happen, just like everyone else. You may have been right.
But that's all irrelevant. That's the past.
What matters is how we/you handle it going forward. And, honestly, almost all you've done is bitch about how horrible a decision it was, and crow about how you were right. 7 of the last 10 posts you've made on the Dwilight board have been nothing more than "I was right", "your idea was horrible", "You're methods sucked", "I made this thread to prove that you suck", "sink Dwilight". I stopped at 10, because the rest was more of the same. I really don't understand how you think your recent posts to this thread have been anything other than outright trolling.
Just stop. Stop bitching about what decisions were made. Stop bitching about how how no one listened to you. Stop bitching about how your personal situation was made so much worse.
Start providing positive, helpful solutions moving forward. Start making suggestions on where to go from here. Start giving ideas.
Quote from: Indirik on November 27, 2014, 05:04:08 AM
No one *knew* what would happen. It's quite possible that had we shut down the east, that we'd be in the same situation as we ended up in. It's possible that everyone who played in the east would quit/leave. And then the west could have easily flopped. Or could have failed to defend themselves against an eastern invasion, which would alter whatever atmosphere you thought you had there, and everyone could have quit anyway. Or the geography could have been wrong to sustain active warfare.
So no,you didn't *know* what would have happened. You had a theory about what might happen, just like everyone else. You may have been right.
But that's all irrelevant. That's the past.
What matters is how we/you handle it going forward. And, honestly, almost all you've done is bitch about how horrible a decision it was, and crow about how you were right. 7 of the last 10 posts you've made on the Dwilight board have been nothing more than "I was right", "your idea was horrible", "You're methods sucked", "I made this thread to prove that you suck", "sink Dwilight". I stopped at 10, because the rest was more of the same. I really don't understand how you think your recent posts to this thread have been anything other than outright trolling.
Just stop. Stop bitching about what decisions were made. Stop bitching about how how no one listened to you. Stop bitching about how your personal situation was made so much worse.
Start providing positive, helpful solutions moving forward. Start making suggestions on where to go from here. Start giving ideas.
Just give me a few minutes, I was already writing just such a post in the population density thread. Jeesh. Also, I don't believe I said that we should sink Dwilight in any context other than supporting your own contention that we should start over if we were going to go through the effort of merging the islands. So specifically in that scenario. I also never said I made the thread to prove that you suck, or insinuated such. I made the thread in question to show the devs that they were killing off a very dynamic part of the island that was seeing growth where everywhere else was seeing stagnation.
Now if you will give me some time, I am busy actually getting some information so I can make my suggestions in at least some kind of informed manner.
Quote from: GundamMerc on November 27, 2014, 05:23:34 AM
Just give me a few minutes, I was already writing just such a post in the population density thread. Jeesh. Also, I don't believe I said that we should sink Dwilight in any context other than supporting your own contention that we should start over if we were going to go through the effort of merging the islands. So specifically in that scenario. I also never said I made the thread to prove that you suck, or insinuated such. I made the thread in question to show the devs that they were killing off a very dynamic part of the island that was seeing growth where everywhere else was seeing stagnation.
Now if you will give me some time, I am busy actually getting some information so I can make my suggestions in at least some kind of informed manner.
You misunderstand. BM 2.0 would not be a restart, it would be a complete recode of the game from scratch. The amount of work in integrate the islands approaches a reasonable fraction of what would be required to do this, with far fewer benefits.
Quote from: GundamMerc on November 27, 2014, 05:23:34 AM
I am busy actually getting some information so I can make my suggestions in at least some kind of informed manner.
Thank you.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 27, 2014, 10:55:29 AM
You misunderstand. BM 2.0 would not be a restart, it would be a complete recode of the game from scratch. The amount of work in integrate the islands approaches a reasonable fraction of what would be required to do this, with far fewer benefits.
Am I missing something? Is there an actual intent to recode the game from scratch?
No. I think he's just saying that the effort required, and the amount of recoding that would have to be done to support it, would effectively make it that. I don't have the knowledge or experience to comment on that.
Quote from: Chénier on November 27, 2014, 02:20:07 PM
Am I missing something? Is there an actual intent to recode the game from scratch?
No. In some ways M&F is what Tom's ideas for BM 2.0 turned into. I am trying to highlight the amount of work integrating continents would be. This is something I am actually highly experienced in, I am a Controls Engineer and some of the work we do is referred to as systems integrations, that is taking disparate control systems within a process and integrating them into a single interconnected system. From experience I well know that the concept for such things always seem quite simple and clear cut, I can't count the amount of times clients have told me "its just a matter of". It is the details that always come unstuck, the little undocumented functions and features, you can spend weeks trying to make two small pieces of relatively unimportant code work well together, while ensuring they still work well with the systems they were originally part of.
And this is when you are working with a system following best practise Software Engineering principles, with all those fancy things like unit testing and well structured code designed to be modified. With a code base like BM it result in either a live game that was so riddled with bugs as to be almost unplayable for a significant period while everything is sorted, or a game that received even less updates then it does now as Tim would need to spend untold hours re factoring the code on a test server and writing test code to attempt to release the thing in some sort of playable state.
Neither merging the continents nor rewriting the game is feasible when Tim is pretty much the only coder that is spending any time on the BM code base.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 27, 2014, 09:56:35 PM
In some ways M&F is what Tom's ideas for BM 2.0 turned into.
Not just "in some ways". It actually is. When Tom started work on BM 2.0, he came up with the map idea, and even put together a "tech demo" he showed the dev team. It quickly turned into a completely separate project.
Quote from: Indirik on November 27, 2014, 10:08:08 PM
Not just "in some ways". It actually is. When Tom started work on BM 2.0, he came up with the map idea, and even put together a "tech demo" he showed the dev team. It quickly turned into a completely separate project.
Sure, but it has diverged enough from some of the core design elements of BM that it could be considered a spiritual successor rather then version 2. I quite like M&F and it currently takes up a considerable part of my free time, but it in no way currently scratches the itch that BM does, and due to design decisions realm politics and interaction is incredibly weak.
Quote from: De-Legro on November 27, 2014, 10:50:05 PMdue to design decisions realm politics and interaction is incredibly weak.
This is why I don't play Might and Fealty. I tried it out but, ultimately, too often it became "village/town management" without having much of a realm. Maybe if it had customisable message groups things would be better because then you could try and foster a realm spirit but, as it is, it's too individualist for me.
Quote from: Antonine on November 29, 2014, 01:48:08 PM
This is why I don't play Might and Fealty. I tried it out but, ultimately, too often it became "village/town management" without having much of a realm. Maybe if it had customisable message groups things would be better because then you could try and foster a realm spirit but, as it is, it's too individualist for me.
It does.
Okay so this thread has kind of derailed in different directions, but still I appreciate the provided input. To those who think I wrote my first post just to complain and blame Luria, please redo reading 101.
Quote from: Shizzle on November 30, 2014, 05:57:01 PM
Okay so this thread has kind of derailed in different directions, but still I appreciate the provided input. To those who think I wrote my first post just to complain and blame Luria, please redo reading 101.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying Luria is to blame, just that they've gotten a lot more out of this than any other realm.
Well, did you ever wonder why Asylon and Niselur ended up in Luria Nova? Why nobles from those realms joined Luria rather than some other place? There was no intention to go south in the beginning, but the actions of the leaders north of luria made us go there. Increasing the player density there, while making the continent less dynamic.
Creating smaller realms of 10-14 nobles though is not the solution to fix the density on the continent, the realms depend too much on a few players being active to keep it interesting and I doubt we have those.
Quote from: D`Este on December 01, 2014, 10:42:21 AM
Well, did you ever wonder why Asylon and Niselur ended up in Luria Nova? Why nobles from those realms joined Luria rather than some other place? There was no intention to go south in the beginning, but the actions of the leaders north of luria made us go there. Increasing the player density there, while making the continent less dynamic.
Creating smaller realms of 10-14 nobles though is not the solution to fix the density on the continent, the realms depend too much on a few players being active to keep it interesting and I doubt we have those.
I personally have no qualms with Luria having gotten more out of this than other realms. I do have qualms with people who claim that Luria is populous solely because they are more active than other realms, rather than having the original thought of "hey, we got a ton of active players from those realms that migrated from the west, that's why we have such a large population and are so active". *sigh* Then they come on here and claim that their realm's player culture is what is allowing them to succeed against the coalition realms, rather than realizing that the coalition realms have either:
A) lost key regions, or in the case of Barca, their entire realm to the monster invasion
B) have collapsed in player population to the point where they have more regions than players
C) have had to recover from a previous war with Asylon and Niselur, while taking over Corsanctum's regions, in the case of Astrum
D) two or all three of the above
Not exactly an easy thing to deal with normally, and made even harder to do while you're at war with a realm that gained a ton of nobles from Asylon and Niselur.
Quote from: D`Este on December 01, 2014, 10:42:21 AM
Well, did you ever wonder why Asylon and Niselur ended up in Luria Nova? Why nobles from those realms joined Luria rather than some other place? There was no intention to go south in the beginning, but the actions of the leaders north of luria made us go there. Increasing the player density there, while making the continent less dynamic.
Creating smaller realms of 10-14 nobles though is not the solution to fix the density on the continent, the realms depend too much on a few players being active to keep it interesting and I doubt we have those.
Because every other realm of the continent was hostile to them...?
Quote from: Chénier on December 01, 2014, 12:50:07 PM
Because every other realm of the continent was hostile to them...?
Welcome to Luria, the least hostile realm of Dwilight! ;)
Quote from: GundamMerc on December 01, 2014, 11:26:16 AM
B) have collapsed in player population to the point where they have more regions than players
Regardless of the other claims, of which I really don't have much to comment, this isn't true.
Only two realms on Dwilight have more regions than nobles: Astrum and Morek. Fissoa has 1.4 nobles per region, and D'Hara is among the highest in the game at 2.6. Even Swordfell has 1.44.
Both Fissoa and D'Hara have lost regions, but so has Luria.
One thing I always wondered, is why those displaced nobles from Barca/Asylon, etc. haven't teamed up with Morek to colonize Poryatown. Morek took the city without even breaking a sweat. A quick duchy appoint appointment ans secession, and Luria has a big problem right in their own backyard. And it's not like Morek can't afford to equip a few dozen nobles to the teeth with a few hundred soldiers each, and then hand them each a couple thousand bonds to buy militia.
When did Morek take Poryatown? They seem to always just take and get defeated in Poryatu.
Quote from: Chénier on December 01, 2014, 02:50:31 PM
When did Morek take Poryatown? They seem to always just take and get defeated in Poryatu.
Yesterday only, it was bought.
Quote from: vonGenf on December 01, 2014, 03:36:40 PM
Yesterday only, it was bought.
Really? I don't remember the last time an enemy city was bought, I didn't think it was still possible...
Apparently it still is.
A wasted opportunity. :'(
Quote from: Indirik on December 01, 2014, 02:41:23 PM
Regardless of the other claims, of which I really don't have much to comment, this isn't true.
Only two realms on Dwilight have more regions than nobles: Astrum and Morek. Fissoa has 1.4 nobles per region, and D'Hara is among the highest in the game at 2.6. Even Swordfell has 1.44.
Both Fissoa and D'Hara have lost regions, but so has Luria.
One thing I always wondered, is why those displaced nobles from Barca/Asylon, etc. haven't teamed up with Morek to colonize Poryatown. Morek took the city without even breaking a sweat. A quick duchy appoint appointment ans secession, and Luria has a big problem right in their own backyard. And it's not like Morek can't afford to equip a few dozen nobles to the teeth with a few hundred soldiers each, and then hand them each a couple thousand bonds to buy militia.
I wasn't saying that every realm was suffering that specific problem. Please, reread my comment. I clearly prefaced the list of issues with "either", meaning that the the realms in question applied to one of the points. There was also one point that applied to realms that had multiple issues.
Barca was busy with all of Luria between us and Poraytown and then being beaten up by Luria. If we'd known you could still buy duchies maybe we should have bought Sun Hall. Barca also had closesr ties to D'Hara and Fissoa than it did Morek. I doubt moving to Poraytown would have changed much, although that would have been neat.
I tried asking Ambassador Seoras that if he really was so upset about us being in Sun Hall we'd take Poraytown instead and happily make peace, but he had no useful reply to that.
Quote from: Ossan on December 01, 2014, 10:34:31 PM
If we'd known you could still buy duchies maybe we should have bought Sun Hall.
You don't buy duchies, only cities.
Shinnen then.
I still fondly remember the realm of "I Can't Believe its Not Butter!" in Atamara.
Quote from: Ossan on December 01, 2014, 10:34:31 PM
I tried asking Ambassador Seoras that if he really was so upset about us being in Sun Hall we'd take Poraytown instead and happily make peace, but he had no useful reply to that.
I'm confused... outside of Luria there's nowhere else you can go and found a realm? There's no huge swathes of empty lands say 2,000 miles to the North?
Nope. It's all full. ;)
Quote from: Lorgan on December 01, 2014, 11:47:02 PM
I'm confused... outside of Luria there's nowhere else you can go and found a realm? There's no huge swathes of empty lands say 2,000 miles to the North?
Right, because it would have been so easy for Barca to fund a large enough army to march north through Luria and Swordfell into Morek when Luria could easily send a larger army to stop us or just invade Aveston while we are gone (of course I am sure if we asked nicely Luria would agree to help, because they have proven to be the friendliest and most trustful nation ever). Not too mention how easy it would be to find an IC reason for Barca to break its alliance with Morek and march far away from its two closest allies. Great plan, can't believe it never occurred to anyone before now.
Quote from: Ossan on December 03, 2014, 11:10:51 PM
Right, because it would have been so easy for Barca to fund a large enough army to march north through Luria and Swordfell into Morek when Luria could easily send a larger army to stop us or just invade Aveston while we are gone (of course I am sure if we asked nicely Luria would agree to help, because they have proven to be the friendliest and most trustful nation ever). Not too mention how easy it would be to find an IC reason for Barca to break its alliance with Morek and march far away from its two closest allies. Great plan, can't believe it never occurred to anyone before now.
You can travel by sea. Best to colonize Morek now before you are competing with the multiple other colonies trying to get up there.
Quote from: Graeth on December 04, 2014, 02:05:27 AM
You can travel by sea. Best to colonize Morek now before you are competing with the multiple other colonies trying to get up there.
Did you ignore the allies bit?
And apparently missed the "Barca was destroyed by Luria" part too :p
So... since your realm was destroyed, go join Morek, your alies, and use their gold to help you chop off a part of another part of Luria. And do it right this time.
Quote from: Indirik on December 04, 2014, 02:10:41 PM
So... since your realm was destroyed, go join Morek, your alies, and use their gold to help you chop off a part of another part of Luria. And do it right this time.
I'm sure their total of six nobles will make an amazing dent in Luria...
Nor do I think it'd be able to make a viable realm once more.
With all of the talk about how Barca was hollowed out, I really see no point in creating the realm anew.
All the same, should some Barcan nobles wish to see Barca recreated, negotiating something with Morek could be a good start. Maybe just join them, with the joint intent of gaining positions of power then splintering off as their own realm - with or without permission. None of the options are easy and the original plan of taking the land from Luria may have failed thus far but as long as at least one player's character desires Barca's return, said return remains a possibility!
Quote from: GundamMerc on December 04, 2014, 02:58:10 PM
I'm sure their total of six nobles will make an amazing dent in Luria...
Of course six nobles would make a dent. You'd damn near double the size of Morek's expeditionary force. And not only that, just think of all the interesting possibilities you have when you give a realm with Morek's resources, six disposable nobles!!!
Think big! Use your imagination! Stop being all "Woe is me, Barca died, I have nothing to live for".
How much damage do you think would have been done to Luria if, instead of dismantling Poryatown's infrastructure and walking away for Luria to quickly retake the city, Morek had turned Poryatown into a duchy, and then spun off a new realm? Morek has insane amounts of gold and more recruiting centers than I have ever seen. Picture 14 nobles, each leading 1,500 CS of troops, popping up in Poryatown. They take the city. Drop off 21,000 CS of militia. (It will actually be more CS, and more effective, if you split the huge units into several smaller units each.) The rich Morekian nobles send metric craptons of gold to one select person in Poryatown. (And not those wimpy Imperial craptons. We're talking the metric system, here.) That person withdraws all that as gold. Helm appoints them as lord of Poryatown. Eviera appoints him as duke of Poryatown. Duke secedes to create Barca v2.1! Time it right, and it could be done within a few minutes of Morek taking the city.
Suddenly, Poryatown isn't just an isolated Morekian region 1,500 miles from the capital, screwing up the stats of every *other* Morekian region. It's now a separate realm smack dab in the middle of Lurian lands, with nice walls, some nice RCs, and with 21,000 CS (or more) of militia. Those six nobles from Barca form the core of the realm, and can recruit more troops from the local RCs. One of them can become an ambassador, and turn the sympathy against Luria for free, and very effectively, since he's in his own realm as an ambassador. Morek can continue to supply gold and food to keep it running.
It doesn't have to be a "viable" realm. If it lasts for two weeks, it's a smashing success. It doesn't even have to be just Barcan nobles. Maybe you can attract some former Asylonians. Maybe a D'Haran or a Fissoan. And maybe a few Morekians who want to be closer to the front, or want more action. (And yes, they do exist.) Think you could get six? Maybe eight? How about if you could get 10?
Now you force Luria to make one hell of a decision. Allow that realm to stay there, growing stronger and raiding their back, or devote a huge army to trying to root them out. And even if they manage to siege the city, they now have to TO an enemy capital that despises them. They have to BTO Poryatown, basically destroying it in the process. And while they are dedicating that huge army to retaking Poryatown, Fissoa and D'Hara have a free reign to screw up the rest of Luria.
And even if you fail, you've had one hell of a ride. *And* you've shoved a big middle finger in Luria's face. What could be better?
That sounds abusive to me.
What's abusive? Capturing a city and attempting to make a realm out of it? How is that any more abusive than taking the city, stepping down from your lordship, appointing yourself to the lordship of the new city, tearing down all the buildings, and then appointing yourself back to your original lordship after the city is retaken?
If you take the city and try to make a realm out of it, even if you don't think it will work, then what's so abusive about it?
I know I'm late to this conversation.
Quote from: Constantine on November 26, 2014, 01:58:21 PM
I am secretly hoping that all the refugee nobles in Luria will finally realize they'll never be granted an independent realm and start a rebellion/bite a chunk off of Morek/go back to Maroccidens on a glorious Reconquista! >:]
I'm one of those nobles (ex-Asylon). I'm not interested in a rebellion against Luria. They've treated us well and fairly. What I do want is about 3 nano-seconds of peace so I can put together an invasion of Morek and wrest the bottom 40% of that centre of wealth and doldrums away from them.
There's also a line of thought about bile towards some comments or ideas presented here from non-Lurians. I think it's more exasperation. The diplomatic notes from the revolving door of leaders representing some of the other nations, from our point of view, are a combination of unchanging demands made in the face of unchanging defeats and OOC suggestions for resolution that meet none of the needs of players/people in Luria.
None of these suggestions for peace from non-Lurians ever reflect a solution likely to be attractive to Luria nor to the exiles within Luria who would, under the right conditions, be happy to start a new nation. It's an OOC suggestion, but maybe you should start talking to us in-game about what we want too.
Quote from: Indirik on December 04, 2014, 06:38:49 PM
What's abusive? Capturing a city and attempting to make a realm out of it? How is that any more abusive than taking the city, stepping down from your lordship, appointing yourself to the lordship of the new city, tearing down all the buildings, and then appointing yourself back to your original lordship after the city is retaken?
If you take the city and try to make a realm out of it, even if you don't think it will work, then what's so abusive about it?
Seceding to bring recruitment capacities on the border?
That doesn't really count when the city being seceded would be totally non-viable as a region of the parent realm, but could be viable as a realm on its own.
Seems like a perfectly legit plan to me.
I don't think Sholan is interested in peace, especially if this war is what is holding the realm together. He only has ever had the one noble character on that account too.
Quote from: Indirik on December 04, 2014, 02:10:41 PM
So... since your realm was destroyed, go join Morek, your alies, and use their gold to help you chop off a part of another part of Luria. And do it right this time.
I'm not sure I can do it right, can you join with us and help please?
Quote from: GundamMerc on December 04, 2014, 02:58:10 PM
I'm sure their total of six nobles will make an amazing dent in Luria...
More like four, one that was listed was autopaused and one is a ghost.
QuoteThink big! Use your imagination! Stop being all "Woe is me, Barca died, I have nothing to live for".
Nah that's just you. RIP Barca but at least now I can go and try something new, it was pretty much dead one or or another for a long time.
Quote
And even if you fail, you've had one hell of a ride. *And* you've shoved a big middle finger in Luria's face. What could be better?
Not having the entire plan laid out for them on the forums? :p
Quote from: Ossan on December 04, 2014, 08:38:33 PM
I'm not sure I can do it right, can you join with us and help please?
I already have a character in Morek. Started last week. Come on up and join him. Maybe he'll be willing to help you out . :)
QuoteNah that's just you.
Mrh? Methinks you got your quoting messed up. I'm not all sad about Barca. I wasn't ever part of it.
QuoteNot having the entire plan laid out for them on the forums? :p
Well, you know, sometimes in order to combat all this negativity about nothing will help, there's no way to do anything, etc., etc., you just have to give some specific examples of things that *can* be done. And in no way was that plan unrealistic or impossible. And in no way is it the *only* possible plan, or the only possible thing that can be done. There are other things that can happen. Other paths to take. You just have to use your imagination, and stop thinking that there's nothing to do, or that there's no possible way that anyone will would be interested in helping you.
Talk to people. Ask for help. Propose ideas. See what they respond. Ask for alternative plans, or other things that people might be willing to do to help. Maybe you're right, and they'll just tell you to piss off. Or maybe they'll say "No we won't help you, but you're welcome to come join us and be good little sheeple in our armies." But if you're lucky, maybe they'll help. Or provide something close enough to what you want that you can accept it along with whatever they ask in return.
Or, maybe you can even talk Morek or Astrum out of a duchy. Morek's got enough cities and townslands that every noble could be a duke. See if you can get together a few nobles and propose something to them.
The key thing is, there *are* options.
When the short term fails, the long term comes into play. I remember spending a RL year working on getting colony plans up and running on Dwilight before.
Indirik isn't the only one in Morek! Come join us in Morek and RP every day \o/
As soon as Sky kicks the bucket I'll send someone to Morek, I think :D