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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: JPierreD on July 18, 2011, 06:26:12 AM
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Disclaimer: This is all OoC, intended to be properly roleplayed later, not being a substitute for IC RP.
Well, this started as an interest from a Lurian character to investigate the Lurian anthropology (cultures, languages, ethnics and pre-history), which translated into an extensive OoC investigation of previously written documents in the wiki on that issue. I am opening this thread to ask for help both if you know about stuff I am missing and if you simply want to collaborate with the OoC story creation that always comes before the IC ancient history findings.
The anthropological references I've found so far were these (with their sub pages):
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_History_of_Dwilight
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Legends
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Sallowsitte_Dawn
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/The_Far_West/The_Ancient_History_of_the_Echiur_Dynasty
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Peoples_of_Dwilight
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Everguard/Peoples_of_Everguard#Mariners
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Springdale_%28Realm%29/Pre-founding
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Flow_Peninsula
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight_University/Humanities/Underground_Lords_of_Unterstrom
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Donghaiwei
Directly related to the issue:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Geographic_Features
The long-term plan is to be able to create three somewhat complete wiki pages of different Dwilight historical periods, that can gather most of what was written by the different players on them, making the whole Dwilight lore and history a collective effort, if possible. The historical periods would Dwilight's:
Pre-History: Containing the old lore, the ancient civilizations and uncivilized peoples, this explains the next age's situation in ethnic, linguistic and cultural distribution of peoples around the continent.
Colonization Age: This is what the first settlers found when they started the first colonies. It's the base on which the first realms were founded on, and gives some extra flavors for some kingdoms, with local cultural, religious pagan and linguistic particularities in each region.
Present: The only age which would need somewhat regular updates, for the today's present is yesterday's future, and which won't be able to get its own maps (unless some of you are willing to make and alter maps constantly, or have an easy way for others to do so).
Scribed Lore
Shenron & Nosferatu's Toprak (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_History_of_Dwilight)
I suspect this is the first project of Anthropology in Dwilight, they divided the natives in just two peoples:
Dwili/Gunthor: The northern race, we could say, in contact with the founding realms of Morek and Springdale. They had ruled over both East and West in the past, and there seemed to be some of them even in Toprak Minor, for even Pian en Luries would have had conflicts with them.
Lurians: The southern race, in either only Toprak Minor, or in both there and in southern Toprak, they were peaceful and artistic hill dwellers. They would have blended naturally with the founders of Pian en Luries.
Ironside's Sallowsitte Cape (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Sallowsitte_Dawn)
The very well-written history of the Sallowsite cultures and lore divides them in two main cultures:
Sallowsite Natives: A nomadic people of the badlands, they would have ruled a large part of the Sallowsite Cape, reaching at least the border of the Unterlands, the Divide Mountains, and the Lurian plains, having formed a great empire with a rich and diverse culture.
Western Immigrants: Arrived through the Tomb Islands, these immigrants would suggest pre-historic populations in the Tomb Islands and possibly Occidens too.
Astromancer's Dwili/Gunthor:
Dongese (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Donghaiwei): Apparently based on the Chinese (at least ethnically, for there are no cultural or linguistic references I could find), they inhabit the Dongeselands.
Unterstrom Dwili (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight_University/Humanities/Underground_Lords_of_Unterstrom): Apparently based on German (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Aurora) medieval society, they inhabit the Dongeselands.
Flow Dwili (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Flow_Peninsula): Ethnically alike the Dongese (so could be considered of Asian or Pacific ethnicity), they have what seems a unique culture with elements of the Hawaiian native culture (a surf reference I didn't very much like, personally).
Northern Cultures (from Everguard (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Everguard/Peoples_of_Everguard#Mariners) and Springdale (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Springdale_%28Realm%29/Pre-founding)'s lores):
The first case of overlapping histories, resulting in conflicting claims between the two lores.
Springdale records divide the North-Western land in three ancient nations and culures:
Old Springdale: City-estate of Springdale, allied to Vivorene and in conflict with the Nifel Kingdom.
Nifel Kingdom: Militaristic kingdom located in Nifelheim, Nifelhold and Storms Keep, with the conflicting (with Everguard RPs) claim to have also been located in Valkyrja.
Old Vivorene: Large empire said to have been Astroist even before the easter colonizers arrived, it would have managed to hold Muspelheim, Aegir, Mimer and Freke, and to have temporarily controlled "Libbi island", whose culture is described by Everguard RPs.
Everguard accounts divide the North-Eastern land in three civilizations with seven cultures:
Mariners: Divided in the highly praised Nordic (or Saxon?) Valkyrjans (based in Valkyrja), the uncharismatic light-olive-skinned (Mediterranean?) Dulesians (based in Eidulb) and the exotic (Japanese?) Eddo (located in "Libid island").
Steppemen: Divided in the allied peoples of the Gelen (based in Gelene) and the Aquiteurs (based in Aquitain and Gaston), these peoples draw a French cultural parallel, sometimes in what seems quite an excessive caricaturization: "The ruler of the Aquiteurs is called ze Roy deu lez Gelens" (sic).
Mountaineers: These clansmen inhabit the Shrine of Seeklander (Seeklanders) and the Dark Mountains (Mountainmen) and are renowned for their smithing abilities.
Ironside's Echiur Civilization:
A large civilization whose historical parallel, if any, I could not grasp, nor its ethnic looks. It is somewhat curious it claims to have hold the large area including the cities of Eichur, Koshtlom, Via, Shokalom and even the currently held by the Zuma Grympen Mire. That last possession sounds odd to me, and possibly overlapping with whatever the Zuma GM might have in mind for the Zuma lore.
My plans and my vision:
Well, the idea is that we can collectively build something, so I would rather we had the less possible bad-for-RP contradictions. I explain.
Good RP contradictions: Bowie Ironsides, in his treatise about the Sallowsite culture, claims their civilization reached as far as Ciarin Tut, and actually build the bridge that connects it to Garuk Udor. My character will have pleasure in contradicting him, explaining the claim on either exaggerations from the Sallowsite locals, or from Bowie himself, as his position of Prince of Sallowtown might have corrupted his impartiality, in the seek for making the culture he rules over greater than it actually is. Bowie will be able to present similar claims against my character, as he is a Lurian, and his pride and sense of Lurian superiority might not allow him to accept the supremacy of another culture, in what are now Lurian lands.
Bad RP contradictions: When two lores place two kingdoms and cultures in the same place, we end up with a RP problem. One will claim the local population to have one ethnic and language, and the other a different one. Unless one of the characters is schizophrenic, we have a problem. Such is the case between Everguard and Springdale's lores, though it can be solved with claiming the region to have been home of diverse conflicts, and temporally controlled by different nations.
Another terrible RP is the claim that the Valkyrjans were /the/ best sailors evah, even better than the Madinians (?). I feel it is not in our right to decide how good or bad are the other cultures (at least not as a serious historical claim, it can be the character's opinions, but not the players), and playing who is the best one, even more in historical RP'd accounts, is pretty childish and not very cooperative.
On the account of historical parallels, I feel that the best would be to have subtle historical references, such as languages whose general ambient reminds of a historical culture, perhaps similar to its ethnic looks (such thing as ethnic views will almost always have a historical parallel, unless we start making green men), but not outright explicit culture imports, like the literally Saxons, or the French "ze Roy deu lez Gelens". That is just a copy-paste and not really a work of RP. Well, that is just my vision at least, which I hope will be the guideline of what I make, no need for everyone to have the same preferences as me, anyway.
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I've always thought a project like this would be really cool and I think you are spot on with the RP contradictions; it is something that has always bugged me.
Good luck with the project and I hope it pans out. I don't mind helping out if need be, though I haven't done much with any Dwilight pre-history stuff in the past.
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Well, any help is appreciated. That can come as suggestions, links to stuff I have missed or whatever you can think of.
I was talking with Lurian and Madinian players to learn about how they envisioned the lands they played in, and got some ideas for those place's ethnics and cultures.
The Lurias (Poryatown, Askileon, Giask) are of Mediterranean climate, and their population is accordingly of the Mediterranean "race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race)". The cultures would draw parallels with the Hellenic and Latin, and perhaps even some older Mediterranean cultures, like the Phoenician and the Egyptian.
The present situation would be, with the (mostly noble) immigration from the East, around 80% of native Mediterranean Lurians, and 20% of immigrants, both from other parts of Dwilight as from the East.
Madina is a tropical climate, and draws more parallels with the American Caribbean. Like its RL counterpart, the local population was either decimated or absorbed into the mainstream population. That mainstream population is made of a mix of Eastern cultures, of ethnicity yet to be defined and a common creole language, and the only natives remaining are of American ethnic looks, with shamanic societies, but so rare and isolationist, living deep in the jungle, that their presence is more on the legendary side.
It would be nice to hear from the rest of the realms' players how they envision their own settings, of if the ones I've written are not how they'd prefer.
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Another terrible RP is the claim that the Valkyrjans were /the/ best sailors evah, even better than the Madinians (?). I feel it is not in our right to decide how good or bad are the other cultures (at least not as a serious historical claim, it can be the character's opinions, but not the players), and playing who is the best one, even more in historical RP'd accounts, is pretty childish and not very cooperative.
Out of all the stuff the "Saxons" blatantly ignored so they could rewrite the history of northern Dwilight the way they wanted it to be, the claim that they were the best sailors ever is what bothered you? Besides, maybe they /were/ better than the Madinans. Madinans have no special dispensation that would make them the best sailors the world has ever seen.
IMNSHO, claims such as "best X ever" are pretty qualitative, and subject to individual judgment. So long as it's an IC claim, then they can claim whatever they want. It's natural for different people to have different opinions. Now, if the players start OOC arguing "this fictional civilization I just invented were better at something than the fictional civilization you just created", then, yeah, that's lame.
Aside from that, have fun with the project. It's a lot of work, but it should be pretty interesting.
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Out of all the stuff the "Saxons" blatantly ignored so they could rewrite the history of northern Dwilight the way they wanted it to be, the claim that they were the best sailors ever is what bothered you? Besides, maybe they /were/ better than the Madinans. Madinans have no special dispensation that would make them the best sailors the world has ever seen.
IMNSHO, claims such as "best X ever" are pretty qualitative, and subject to individual judgment. So long as it's an IC claim, then they can claim whatever they want. It's natural for different people to have different opinions. Now, if the players start OOC arguing "this fictional civilization I just invented were better at something than the fictional civilization you just created", then, yeah, that's lame.
Aside from that, have fun with the project. It's a lot of work, but it should be pretty interesting.
Everybody knows that D'Harans are the best sailors ever. Madinans stick to the land 99% of the time.
That being said, pre-history is a pretty darn long time. Cultures evolve and replace themselves. Just as the Toltecs came in first and the Aztecs came in after, there's no contradiction in saying that "X were here in the past" while saying "Y was here in the past", as "past" is vague.
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That being said, pre-history is a pretty darn long time. Cultures evolve and replace themselves. Just as the Toltecs came in first and the Aztecs came in after, there's no contradiction in saying that "X were here in the past" while saying "Y was here in the past", as "past" is vague.
yes and pre historic means before written records, but archaeological remains could sometimes be found, which could gives us some clues, that's it actually.
You can RP that you discovered a new ancient ruin or something and then make up your own history, plus research the documents of discovers, colonists and traders that came from the first migration of nobles.
You can research this IC, where you meet characters remembering different kind of sources.
The best and most fun ways to do it i guess.
ow and yeah Madinans are the best sailors :P
we have proof to back us up, the assaults on Paisly where all sublimely navigated sea journeys of 5 days to a week. beat that!
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Aren't the Zuma supposed to be natives or something?
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beat that!
Uh, Terran and D'Haran armies did...
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My research shows irrefutable evidence that Fissoans are a race of subhumans, as shown by their large brow ridges, big noses, low foreheads and ape-like mannerisms.
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Uh, Terran and D'Haran armies did...
I was not talking about the successes of the attack its self... i was rather talking about the success in navigating and coordinating that sea journey by the most greatest attacking sea fleet ever gathered in Dwilight ;)
Off course i don't deny that once we arrived there, we where beaten to utter pulp.
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I was not talking about the successes of the attack its self... i was rather talking about the success in navigating and coordinating that sea journey by the most greatest attacking sea fleet ever gathered in Dwilight ;)
Off course i don't deny that once we arrived there, we where beaten to utter pulp.
Yes, the "success" of navigating and coordinating everyone arriving over the course of 3-4 turns. I guess that was an intended pun for "attacking in waves", since you were coming from the seas? 8)
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The second attack on Paisly was not quite as well co-ordinated.
The first one we landed some 25 of 30 nobles the same turn. And then proceeded up into Terran all the way to the city.
And it was a 78+ hour trip for units with Siege I remember. . . ugh. That was a pain.
After the failed second assault I think we vetoed any assault via the sea route again :P Just takes WAY too much coordination to make work.
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The second attack on Paisly was not quite as well co-ordinated.
The first one we landed some 25 of 30 nobles the same turn. And then proceeded up into Terran all the way to the city.
And it was a 78+ hour trip for units with Siege I remember. . . ugh. That was a pain.
After the failed second assault I think we vetoed any assault via the sea route again :P Just takes WAY too much coordination to make work.
Madinans spend all their time on the land. They even built themselves a silly bridge for the crossing.
In D'Hara, we set sails just every time we change duchies. Or realm. Being on an island doesn't make you any better sailors than the Giaskians. 8)
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Madinians: Are you ok with said idea for Madinian natives?
Fissoans: Are you ok to have similar natives as Madina? Or did you have something else on mind?
D'Harans: I had thought of D'Hara about something like the British isles. The natives would be Celtic, the Shadovar colony would have been like the brief Roman Britain, and D'Hara would be something like the Ango-Saxon Britain. What do you think about it?
Terrans and Caerwynians: What the hell are you?
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JPierreD:
I am glad you are doing this. Join the Dwilight University, you can contribute quite a bit to it.
Read "History of Occidentalism." It explains Maroccidens. Also, the Maroccidens page explains it a great deal of ethnography.
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Maroccidens
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight_University/History/A_Concise_History_of_Occidentalism
Regarding the dispute over sailors: D'Harans, hands down. The Madinana assault that made it inland wasn't an assault; you controlled Paisly at the time. Sure, you sailed safely into a harbor you owned. We then took it from you handily and held it against repeated attacks, where ya'll could barely coordinate your army.
In general, the indigenous peoples of Maroccidens are largely extinct, or fled to the Zuma. The people there now are mostly of colonial origin. Terran's population is largely ethnically Madinan, with some mixing of the indigenous. Both the Melodian and the Caerwynian contingents ultimately stem from Madina.
Whether-wise we see ourselves as something like... the Everglades... or a central American jungle.
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Alright, so there are 3 indigenous reported races in Maroccidens:
A) Marwood: a group with yet unknown culture and ethnicity, and name, unless you count "Woodfolk" as their name.
B) Townflat: indigenous peoples with no description yet, and immigrants from the Zuma lands.
In the Zuma lands we have another group with no description that used to inhabit most of Occidens, perhaps the same as the Eichur?
In the Far West we have the descendants of the Eichurean Empire, whose ethnicity has not yet been defined.
In Mesoccidens there haven't been described any local indigenous populations, as in the northern lands around Darfix.
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Woodfolk is indeed what the "Colonial" populations would call the residents of Marwood, but not their own name.
"Townfolk" could be another stand-in name for the people of the Townflats.
I suggest that "the Zuma" are a race of people, but that "the Zuma Coalition" reflects an emergent multi-ethnic people, remnants of all the indigenous peoples who have fled the colonists, the demise of Echi'ur, etc. "The Zuma" have received some description, but we could maybe say that what was once a race distinct from other indigenous peoples has begun to meld with other indigenous peoples. That'd be neat to me. And we colonials basically refer to all of them as "Zuma" because they're all worthless barbarians to us.
That's basically how I RP it in Terran. Note in the Concise History of Occidentalism, under "Origins":
"The native folk of Occidens are a strange and barbarous people for the most part, only becoming civilized under the influence of nobility arrived from other continents from 0 DY onwards. As they have mingled with waves of colonists, the natural depravity of these brutish people has been so tempered that the original race of people has become almost lost to history, saving only in the shadow of Volcano Nightscree, where the Zuma Coalition resides."
I think of them as somewhat darker skinned. I imagine the Zuma as essentially Aztec, or some other central American civilization. Other indigenous peoples could vary widely given that the Zuma are under supernatural influences, but could also be modeled off of native American peoples.
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I think of them as somewhat darker skinned. I imagine the Zuma as essentially Aztec, or some other central American civilization. Other indigenous peoples could vary widely given that the Zuma are under supernatural influences, but could also be modeled off of native American peoples.
Given the assumption of the weather climate as "jungle-y" and "Caribbean-ish" it's become very easy for me as well to think of the Zuma as Aztec-y.
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Glaumring has always spoken of the pre-Melodian/Shadovarian/D'haran civilization that existed where he was born in Raviel . I always roleplayed Glaumring as a sort of aboriginal Dwilii. His people lived near the ocean and sailed with small row boats for 6 to 10 people. And ate sea food and chewed the Bloodmoon fruit. It wasn't until the outside groups like the Melodians came that his tribe was civilized and became apart of civilization and began to forget their old ways. Could this be added to the study for that region?
The original Ravielian groups are a dark people, heavily tattooed and built for rowing and swimming. etc... I can add more if this idea is accepted.
I just wanted to add, I really like Vello's idea about the lands around here, we are on the same vein.
Regarding Echuir: Currently the people of that region are/were a very poor and ignorant group of dirty peasants, When Echuir was refounded it spoke of previous glory ages and ages ago but when we arrived the city was in complete shambles and near desolate asides from bandits groups and monster infestations. We consider the peasant groups to be related to the old dynasty as they are not of the dark races but would be more fair skinned as if they originally came from farther away and settled in Echuir, perhaps they came from Farrowfield ages ago or even further north, but the people are a more recent addition to the area than being aboriginal like the Marrociddens and tomb island groups. etc. It is possible that the original Echuir peoples sailed from Darfix/Itau and settled in the south for some unknown reason.
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D'Hara is, as far as I am concerned, the continuation of Shadovar.
As for the peasants, I tend to see them as being colonists from all corners of the world. Golden Farrow, Madina, and Giask mostly. Poor people, mostly sailors and craftsmen, artisans of all sorts, having emigrated from the other spots in the hope of a better life, far from the monsters and the wars. America, in some ways, now that I think of it. Kind of anachronistic, but I don't think there were any massive migrations and colonizations during the middle ages anyways.
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D'Hara is, as far as I am concerned, the continuation of Shadovar.
As for the peasants, I tend to see them as being colonists from all corners of the world. Golden Farrow, Madina, and Giask mostly. Poor people, mostly sailors and craftsmen, artisans of all sorts, having emigrated from the other spots in the hope of a better life, far from the monsters and the wars. America, in some ways, now that I think of it. Kind of anachronistic, but I don't think there were any massive migrations and colonizations during the middle ages anyways.
Are we forgetting the crusades, good sir? They weren't just military campaigns, you know.
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Glaumring has always spoken of the pre-Melodian/Shadovarian/D'haran civilization that existed where he was born in Raviel . I always roleplayed Glaumring as a sort of aboriginal Dwilii. His people lived near the ocean and sailed with small row boats for 6 to 10 people. And ate sea food and chewed the Bloodmoon fruit. It wasn't until the outside groups like the Melodians came that his tribe was civilized and became apart of civilization and began to forget their old ways. Could this be added to the study for that region?
The original Ravielian groups are a dark people, heavily tattooed and built for rowing and swimming. etc... I can add more if this idea is accepted.
Something like a Pacific islander? Or a Celtic one? Dark people you mean skin color?
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I don't think there were any massive migrations and colonizations during the middle ages anyways.
Sure there were. The german tribes all over the place at the beginning, then the Moors colonized Spain, then the Prussians the Baltics. The Normans colonized England, then Norman/English colonized Wales and Ireland, the Vikings Iceland and parts of Scotland and the Danelaw. You had the reconquista which was a re-colonization of Southern Spain and the Norman colonization of Sicily, then the Turkification of much of southeastern Europe. I probably forgot a few.
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Something like a Pacific islander? Or a Celtic one? Dark people you mean skin color?
yeah, like pacific islanders. With dark skin, whether it is tanned or their actual pigment who knows!
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Are we forgetting the crusades, good sir? They weren't just military campaigns, you know.
To what extent did western European peasants travel to the east to settle in these new kingdoms? In numbers? I honestly don't know, but I can't imagine it is anywhere near as many as we see in Dwilight popping up.
Sure there were. The german tribes all over the place at the beginning, then the Moors colonized Spain, then the Prussians the Baltics. The Normans colonized England, then Norman/English colonized Wales and Ireland, the Vikings Iceland and parts of Scotland and the Danelaw. You had the reconquista which was a re-colonization of Southern Spain and the Norman colonization of Sicily, then the Turkification of much of southeastern Europe. I probably forgot a few.
Most of these don't qualify as feudal societies, though, as far as I'm concerned. And for those who are, again I ask, how many *peasants* moved? Nobles moving and then conquering natives and making them subjects doesn't count.
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Most of these don't qualify as feudal societies, though, as far as I'm concerned. And for those who are, again I ask, how many *peasants* moved? Nobles moving and then conquering natives and making them subjects doesn't count.
Norse migrations are the huge example. As vonGenf noted: the Danelaw is a perfect example. The clash between the Anglo-Saxon culture and the Norse culture was quite significant, but also resulted in a very fused culture. Many, many "peasants" moved (though among the Norse the peasant class was somewhat less defined). There is a good reason many English people have Norse-derived last names and live in towns with Old Norse toponyms. Norman conquest is also significant.
But, mass migrations probably were rarer. The movement of the Jews to Poland was a bit late for BM, I believe. Crusades had only limited demographic weight, though the movement of Turks westward was quite huge– but, again, that's really only on the fringe of BM's setting.
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We can't forget that Dwilight's geography differs vastly from Europe's. For that reason alone we can't apply the same population dynamics and expect to have logical results.
Europe is essentially one big peninsula. Spain and Portugal are separated from the northwest African coast by a small strait, thus allowing movement of the Moors into the Iberian peninsula. The English Channel separates the British Isles from the north coast of France. The northern tip of Denmark almost touches Scandinavia, and furthermore, the Vikings, who sailed to Greenland and Iceland, could just about swim across the North Sea to England. Oh yeah, and Turkey is quite close to Greece, something that has always been featured in Mediterranean history with the many conflicts between Greeks and Persians, Greeks and Trojans, Greeks and Turks, and so on.
Anyway, that's all not true on Dwilight. Sure you might get some more pronounced isolation on the main bodies of the east and west, like Echiur, Darfix in the west, and Flowrestown, Donghaiwei, and Springdale in the east. And those places look a lot larger and separated from any bodies of water than Europe as a whole (For them, inland pretty much means Austria, Hungary, and Switzerland. Just about every other European country borders some body of saltwater.)
But when you get closer to the central areas, especially near the connecting islands or Valkyrja, then you'd definitely see a lot of mixing. I wouldn't be surprised if the peoples of Eidulb, Golden Farrow, Libidzedd, Port Nebel, Port Raviel, Sallowtown, and Mimer were indistinguishable. They might differ from the ones who crossed via Valkyrja, and it's plausible that they would differ from the southerners. However, I believe that the movement patterns of humans based only on the current Dwilight map, suggests a much more mixed central population, with pockets of isolated groups in the edge regions.
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Norse migrations are the huge example. As vonGenf noted: the Danelaw is a perfect example. The clash between the Anglo-Saxon culture and the Norse culture was quite significant, but also resulted in a very fused culture. Many, many "peasants" moved (though among the Norse the peasant class was somewhat less defined). There is a good reason many English people have Norse-derived last names and live in towns with Old Norse toponyms. Norman conquest is also significant.
But, mass migrations probably were rarer. The movement of the Jews to Poland was a bit late for BM, I believe. Crusades had only limited demographic weight, though the movement of Turks westward was quite huge– but, again, that's really only on the fringe of BM's setting.
These don't sound like feudal societies.
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But when you get closer to the central areas, especially near the connecting islands or Valkyrja, then you'd definitely see a lot of mixing. I wouldn't be surprised if the peoples of Eidulb, Golden Farrow, Libidzedd, Port Nebel, Port Raviel, Sallowtown, and Mimer were indistinguishable. They might differ from the ones who crossed via Valkyrja, and it's plausible that they would differ from the southerners. However, I believe that the movement patterns of humans based only on the current Dwilight map, suggests a much more mixed central population, with pockets of isolated groups in the edge regions.
I wouldn't go so far. Tunesia and Italy are quite close, but I wouldn't go saying they are indistinguishable.
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If no one objects I'd love to put together a short concise compendium of all the ancient cultures of dwilight. I feel like their would be about ten or so and I think I can take a lot of what's been written on the forum plus the other info jpierre provided at the beginning.
I'll make it brief so that theirs room for others to expand on whichever culture they choose and so that if there's any disagreement it won't be difficult to change. Itd just be a sort of skeleton that would make it easier for anyone who wanted to continue the subject.
Also, I feel like the history of the Maroccidens page written by Vellos is incredibly informative and well made and contributes significantly to rp in Terran and Barca and surrounding areas. I would encourage people from other areas to read it and think of creating something similar for their areas. It would truly deepen dwilights already rich culture.
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Thanks, Raz, that's the spirit!
Are you going to update this link, then?
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Peoples_of_Dwilight
I was planning on gathering a little more info before actually start editing, and solving the previously said controversies, but we can do both at the same time.
Edit: Thought it would be interesting making too an "Ancient Peoples of Dwilight", with the legendary/historical stuff, separated from the more official and pretty much factual "Peoples of Dwilight". The first could be home of major controversies, while the second should be agreed pretty much by everyone, minus the madmen.
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We can't forget that Dwilight's geography differs vastly from Europe's. For that reason alone we can't apply the same population dynamics and expect to have logical results.
Europe is essentially one big peninsula. Spain and Portugal are separated from the northwest African coast by a small strait, thus allowing movement of the Moors into the Iberian peninsula. The English Channel separates the British Isles from the north coast of France. The northern tip of Denmark almost touches Scandinavia, and furthermore, the Vikings, who sailed to Greenland and Iceland, could just about swim across the North Sea to England. Oh yeah, and Turkey is quite close to Greece, something that has always been featured in Mediterranean history with the many conflicts between Greeks and Persians, Greeks and Trojans, Greeks and Turks, and so on.
Anyway, that's all not true on Dwilight. Sure you might get some more pronounced isolation on the main bodies of the east and west, like Echiur, Darfix in the west, and Flowrestown, Donghaiwei, and Springdale in the east. And those places look a lot larger and separated from any bodies of water than Europe as a whole (For them, inland pretty much means Austria, Hungary, and Switzerland. Just about every other European country borders some body of saltwater.)
But when you get closer to the central areas, especially near the connecting islands or Valkyrja, then you'd definitely see a lot of mixing. I wouldn't be surprised if the peoples of Eidulb, Golden Farrow, Libidzedd, Port Nebel, Port Raviel, Sallowtown, and Mimer were indistinguishable. They might differ from the ones who crossed via Valkyrja, and it's plausible that they would differ from the southerners. However, I believe that the movement patterns of humans based only on the current Dwilight map, suggests a much more mixed central population, with pockets of isolated groups in the edge regions.
Agreed, generally. I think the people of Sallowtown might be different, given their being a spur off of the main trade routes with the geography implying a desert. But still not a massive difference. But the major central cities and their outlands should be ethnographically similar.
Major ethnic variations would occur off of the spurs from the central routes (Northnastrond could conceivably have a clear ethnic identity, the Zuma, Forland, Madina/Maroccidens).
In Maroccidens, I have assumed, basically, 3 major ethnic groups:
1. Colonial
2. Pirate
3. Various Indigenes
Colonial I identify as broadly the ethnicity of the central sea trade cities and their affiliated lands. Pirate would be the dominant Madinan ethnicity, and so also be prominent in Forland (especially Fissoa), southern trade cities, and Maroccidens. Indigenes might vary more widely, but I see them as having internal divisions meaningful only to themselves, while outsiders regard them as the "Zuma Coalition." Or just the Zuma.
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Vellos, your division is interesting, but let me clarify some points:
1) Colonial: Are those who came from Springdale, Morek and Pian en Luries, in opposition to those who came from Madina?
2) Pirate: These would be the majority of the peoples from Madina, Fissoa and Aurvandil, with an at least considerable population in D'Hara, Caerwyn and Terran, right?
3) Various Indigenous: Only the Zuma? What about the Toprak Dwili/Gunthor and the Lurian, D'Haran, Northern Occidens, Mesoccidens, Maroccidens, Eichurian, Madinan and Forlandian naives?
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Perhaps we should use South American colonial history as a template for Dwilight, a vast land of varying cultures colonized from the east by a vastly technologically superior and organized group of peoples from far off lands?
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Sounds like a very good idea to me. It would explain the mostly low native Dwili population (except in the Lurian lands and perhaps in the North, but those can go as the Aztecs and Incas), and we can use an American parallel without having to use actual American cultures or ethnicities.
Ethnically I was thinking about the native peoples of the north Toprak as Scandinavian, Germanic and Slavic parallels, with Turkic/Mongol/Asian enclaves in the Dongeselands and Flow Peninsula, Mediterranean peoples around the Lurias and North African/Middle Eastern peoples in southern Forland, Madina and perhaps even Aurvandil. The Sallowsite Cape would go with Persian peoples.
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Perhaps we should use South American colonial history as a template for Dwilight, a vast land of varying cultures colonized from the east by a vastly technologically superior and organized group of peoples from far off lands?
How is that different from Northern American colonial history?
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Err... I did miss the "South" word, and took it as American. In any case, I don't think there should be any substantial differences between the two of them, we have pretty similar parallels in both sides of the Americas.
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I think what is wrong with the Peoples of Dwilight page is that it is primarily northern and also seems to have an Everguard bias that makes it difficult for anyone else to role-play. I'd keep some of those elements while broadening other things to make it more applicable to Dwilight in general.
Here's some ideas I was thinking of the top of my head.
Marromen- Otherwise known as Woodfolk. It is from here that the name Maroccidens derives ( occident being a modern addition that the civilizers brought). These people lived mainly in the dense Marwood where it was easier to hide from the monster hordes. The coast of present day "old Maroccidens" was largely uninhabited due to it's openness and thus vulnerability. The Marromen existed in small tribes that warred occasionally but were also largely cooperative.
Ostro-Marromen- similar in culture and traditions to the Marromen of the forest, their were slight differences the biggest of which being that the Ostro-Marromen lived in the western town flats of present day Maroccidens. Also, while the Marromen lived seasonally in temporary villages, the O-M lived in more permanent settlements.
Ooc: something like the early Germanic tribes of the black forest (but in a jungle)
I'll go into less detail for the rest since I wanna see what people think but:
Messocidens:
Eastern Mesoccidens: the Phantarians, also wood folk something something. Perhaps an archer civilization that lived in tree forts? (stop me if I'm getting a little fantastical haha)
Western Mesoccidens: Eichurian civilization, quite advanced, lawful and scientific in their own right, perhaps something like Babylon
Madina, the Fissoan Peninsula:
I'll let someone from the area offer a potential name but I was thinking a particularly unadvanced culture similar to early Australian aborigines ( no offense). Originated on the madinan isle and colonized the surrounding areas quite slowly. Contrary to Madina's current seafaring history, the culture before them were poor seafarers and mainly kept to the coast. They expanded somewhat into the Fissoan area and even less so onto the Candiels Peninsula.
Modern day Greater Luria
Unlike the Marromen and who hid from monster hordes and the Ostro-Marromen and Phantaraians who built their homes out of harms way, the ancients of the Lurian area consisted of a dozen or so organized tribes that actively faught the monsters in quite bloody affairs. A very warlike and proud people that eventually went extinct after a series of very difficult years of monster surges immidietly prior to colonization ( ie the arrival of pian en lurie) ( similar in my mind to an Iroquois confederacy)
Darfix and surrounding plains:
Steppeners ( the name assigned by the Peoples of Dwilight page): I envision them as a Mongol likes people who were nomadic, tamed and herded horses and were excellent riders.
I won't go into more detail now since I feel like you guys get what I'm aiming for but the remaining tribes in my mind would be one or two on the east side of north occidens, a viking like civilization around Valkrya, a civilization based around donghaiwei (perhaps based somewhat on ancient china ie. Relatively advanced society, organized, scientific) and a mountain people around balances retreat.
Ideas, criticisms, suggestions?
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a civilization based around donghaiwei (perhaps based somewhat on ancient china ie. Relatively advanced society, organized, scientific)
See this:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Morek#The_Manifestation_of_Morek
In the Donghaiwei area, it is pretty established RP that the natives were violent folks and the Easterners brought civilization to the place.
The chinese references are exists (Huanghai has silk description in its page description).
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Indeed, it has a heavy bias, let's try to solve that, and correct some of the contradictions.
On what you've proposed, ideas, counter-ideas and commentaries:
Marromen - Like the Goths, divided in Visigoths and Ostrogoths? How about Wesimarromen and Austromarromen for less obvious reference? Wesigothi and Autrogothi are other forms to address those peoples.
Or... we could go for even less obvious references, and give them an earlier separation from the Goth tribes: Thervingi and Greuthungi. The first conveniently may mean "forest people", while the second may mean "steppe dwellers" or "people of the pebbly coasts", according to the Wikipedia. That would make the Woodsfolk the Marvingi or Therfolk (the first can be used by the colonizers and the second by themselves, like the Dwili/Gunthor). The Townsfolk would be Marthungi or Greutfolk.
Question: Ethnically, how would they look? Perhaps like the Riffian Berbers, who had a fair share of Vandal (East Germanic, as the Goths) mixing. This would suggest a migration from from the Mesoccidens, mixing with a previously Berber-like Maroccidens population.
What about Old Maroccidens and Candiels Peninsula, btw? A Berber-like ethnicity, though with much reduced population, would make sense in the previously given context.
Feel free to discard any/all of the ideas, though, same with the ones that will follow. These are suggestions.
Phantarians: Is there any historical parallel to tree forts? If not, I'd rather keep it more realistic, but that is just a personal opinion.
Ethnically I'd go with something Germanic, source of the "Goths" of Maroccidens.
Eichurians: Sounds good. Any ideas on ethnicity? Middle-Eastern Mesopotamian could work, unless there are better ideas...
Madina-Candiels-Fissoa: Sounds good to me. Perhaps something like Tuareg ethnicity?
Greater Luria: We did have a different idea on the Lurians. For a start, unlike in many other places, the Lurian natives did not dissapear, far from it. They would make up around 80% of the population of the Lurian Kingdoms, with only the other 20% made from immigrants and mixtures.
My ideas on ethnicity were about having 2 major Lurian groups.
* Phrycian: The ancient Luria, based around Poryatu. The peoples are very civilized and amiable, and they are the cradle of the Lurian civilization. The first accounts on the "gentle" Lurians were based on these peoples. They are ethnically Hellenic.
* Euscheans: The classical Luria, based around the Euschean/Lurian Sea, it covers Askileon, Giask and Shinnen. Though more militaristic than the Phrycians, they have a strong cultural heritage from them, with very related and similar languages. Originally from Askileon, they expanded aggressively their culture to all the inner coast of "their" Sea. They are ethnically Latin.
* Southerners: Made from two very different groups, none of them related with the Lurians. One group is the Madinian natives of the forests, and the other is a group of unknown origin (legends say they origin from a now-sunken volcanic island in the south-west) which used inhabit all the southern coast, from Drowentown to Herle and Irvington. Both ethnicities need to be defined.
* Westerners: Around Aveston, west of the Smokey Hills, there is a small part of the land which was colonized by the natives of the Tomb Island, mixing with the now extinct, as a separated ethnicity, local natives.
* Northerners: The Dwili accounted by the early historians in Pian en Luries are composed by the three peoples inhabiting to its north. Those are the Salowsitte, Divide and Flow Dwili.
Steppeners: Good idea expanding the Steppemen concept. Summing it up, they would be divided in 3 groups, which could profit from more original names that the ones here given.
* Aquiteurs: Ethnically Franks, would occupy zones in the regions of Mergrathor, Asurbanipal, Tenith, Jorradith, Gaston/Gaston Farms, Forguthrie, Zeret and Aquitain.
* Gelenes: Ethnically Germanic, would occupy Sabadell and Gelene/Gelene Outskirts.
* Darfixers: Ethnically Nordic, would occupy the lands west of K'dira, Crotona, Eeborngul, Raden, Kargen and Tenith.
Valkyrians: Perhaps it would be interesting expanding the concept already made, on Saxon/Viking civilization, getting a more original name.
Dongeselands: Culturally, something like ancient China sounds good, but ethnically I'd go with something more Turkic or Mongolic, not to bring way too much contrast into the mix.
Balance's Retreat: Perhaps some Scottish-Celtic parallels in here?
Libidizedd Island: Culturally Japanese, as described by the Everguardian Eddons, but ethnically something different. Still not sure which ethnics, but Japanese would make very little sense in the context.
Thoughts, complaints, critics, ideas?
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I think what is wrong with the Peoples of Dwilight page is that it is primarily northern and also seems to have an Everguard bias that makes it difficult for anyone else to role-play. I'd keep some of those elements while broadening other things to make it more applicable to Dwilight in general.
That's probably because one of the founders of Everguard was *very* active in developing that kind of information. As a result, nearly all the information he generated was centered around Everguard and its place on the island. Despite the fact that Everguard as a powerhouse was very short-lived, nearly all of what he wrote was from the viewpoint of "Everguard as an everlasting world power". The player was very talented and creative, and knew a lot about how to make his pages attractive, with substantial content.
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Libidizedd Island: Culturally Japanese, as described by the Everguardian Eddons, but ethnically something different. Still not sure which ethnics, but Japanese would make very little sense in the context.
Well, as Astrum has been the only realm to have ever possessed the island, and my character has been the only duke of the region, I think I can speak with some authority in this one. There has never, ever been any RP associated with Libidizedd (at elast formt hose that have actually lived there) that would indicate that the island has any form of Japanese culture associated with it. The bits of RP that have been done have held mostly to the classical British/European style of culture.
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Furthermore, the only naming theme that matches anything remotely Japanese would be the two regions southwest of Unterstrom (Incidentally the only modern German-themed places).
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another source of could be info is:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/West_Continent/Background_Story_Proposals
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Indirik: Good, we cannot invent everything, so we tend to grab from what has already been written. Since the only culture associated with the Libidizedd Island I had read (check the references) had been the one described by Everguard, I took that. It's very good that those who actually play in those regions are the ones who get to decide in what world their characters are living in.
How would you consider the inhabitants of Libidizedd Island, culturally and ethnically? What historical parallels would you give (something more specific than British/European if possible, for that ranges from pre-Roman Britain to the Victorian Empire)?
For your contact with SA, perhaps you could have a notion of what the Corsanctum nobles think of the Mimer Peninsula, how they envision it?
Ramiel: I saw that, but only one of those proposals seemed to go forward.
This one http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/West_Continent/Background_Story_Proposals#Submitted_by_Devercia_with_help_from_Shenron.2C_and_Nosferatus_banner_contest_winners
As seen here: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_History_of_Dwilight
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Marromen - Like the Goths, divided in Visigoths and Ostrogoths? How about Wesimarromen and Austromarromen for less obvious reference? Wesigothi and Autrogothi are other forms to address those peoples.
Or... we could go for even less obvious references, and give them an earlier separation from the Goth tribes: Thervingi and Greuthungi. The first conveniently may mean "forest people", while the second may mean "steppe dwellers" or "people of the pebbly coasts", according to the Wikipedia. That would make the Woodsfolk the Marvingi or Therfolk (the first can be used by the colonizers and the second by themselves, like the Dwili/Gunthor). The Townsfolk would be Marthungi or Greutfolk.
Question: Ethnically, how would they look? Perhaps like the Riffian Berbers, who had a fair share of Vandal (East Germanic, as the Goths) mixing. This would suggest a migration from from the Mesoccidens, mixing with a previously Berber-like Maroccidens population.
What about Old Maroccidens and Candiels Peninsula, btw? A Berber-like ethnicity, though with much reduced population, would make sense in the previously given context.
Not really sure how I feel about a Germanic theme for Maroccidens. Doesn't seem to fit in at all. The weather, climate, and atmosphere have never screamed anything German themed.
Also, why a Berber-like ethnicity?
Pretty much, in my own mind at least (and that's just me, of course), most of Maroccidens has always taken a strong South American/Caribbean feel for me.
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I came up with the Goth idea from the "Ostro-Marmen", and to adequate it to the climate (keeping it more Europe-centered) I went with those who now a days have Eastern Germanic blood, but live in a more hot weather: the Berbers. Keep in mind that this would be the native population's ethnicity, not its culture nor the immigrants (and probably your noble's) ethnicity or culture.
Here is how it goes:
"The most part of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers. Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia."
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals#The_turbulent_end
"Riffi Berbers are defined as Mediterranean. While only a few tribes have moderate Alpinid and Nordic admixture, these tribes are even closer to Europeans than to Africans. This is supported by a scientific study done on them in the Rif showing that some of the Rif Berbers have blond hair and blue or green eyes, a percentage higher than that found in Italians, Spaniards, or Portuguese."
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riffian_people#Physical_anthropology
In any case, it was just an idea. Feel free to discard it and bring up others. It's you who play in the Marwood anyway, not me.
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In any case, it was just an idea. Feel free to discard it and bring up others. It's you who play in the Marwood anyway, not me.
*shrugs*
Wasn't trying to shoot you down or anything, was just curious mostly.
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Don't worry, I don't feel persecuted or anything like that. :P
I'm just presenting ideas, and working with what I get. The final result should be of your liking (and of those playing in Mar and Mesoccidens), for it's you who'll this affect more.
How do you envision the natives, ethnically?
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How would you consider the inhabitants of Libidizedd Island, culturally and ethnically? What historical parallels would you give (something more specific than British/European if possible, for that ranges from pre-Roman Britain to the Victorian Empire)?
I have no idea. I always hated History as a subject, so that's just a jumble of meaningless names to me.
For your contact with SA, perhaps you could have a notion of what the Corsanctum nobles think of the Mimer Peninsula, how they envision it?
I don't think I've ever seen the subject come up. I think the majority of the players never even consider it.
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Don't worry, I don't feel persecuted or anything like that. :P
I'm just presenting ideas, and working with what I get. The final result should be of your liking (and of those playing in Mar and Mesoccidens), for it's you who'll this affect more.
How do you envision the natives, ethnically?
Its nice to discover things about the game as a player, but it actually ruins alot of fun.
have your character do this IC, its much more mysterious, adventurous and exciting to travel threw out the entire continent asking these questions to our characters.
Some things i'd never tell you as a player, but perhaps i would as my character.
You would also get more acquainted which climates, more recent history, culture of nobles and the roleplays or knowledge of players who are not here answering your questions :P
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Its nice to discover things about the game as a player, but it actually ruins alot of fun.
have your character do this IC, its much more mysterious, adventurous and exciting to travel threw out the entire continent asking these questions to our characters.
Some things i'd never tell you as a player, but perhaps i would as my character.
You would also get more acquainted which climates, more recent history, culture of nobles and the roleplays or knowledge of players who are not here answering your questions :P
He figured that out, and he already knows who he should talk to. ::)
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As stated in the first post, this is supposed to be RP'd later.
In any case, this /is/ all OoC stuff. How can my character ask yours: "Hey, see those peasants over there? How do they look? What is the color of their eyes, what's the tone of their skin, and the appearance of their hairs?".
It would both sound pretty wacky, and it wouldn't allow for a collective construction. How could we have had the discussion we had before on Goths? "Hey, don't you think those people from the woods look olive to light-dark skinned, with a rather large proportion having contrasting light colored eyes, specially blue and green?" "Nope, they look pretty red-skinned, with pitch black hair and no beards. And dark-colored eyes." "Oh, my mistake, it must have been those psychotropic substances of the jungle..."
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JPierreD,
As I've said before, the common vision of most RP-active players in Terran (and I think Barca as well) for the natives is as, well, read this:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Unti_Family/Lina/Explorer
The Zuma, properly speaking, paint their faces and sharpen their teeth. I presume they are somewhat darker skinned. Native peoples of the Marwood would presumably be similar. If the Zuma are the "high culture," or the Aztecs, the Mays, etc, the people of the Marwood are the small tribes of the Amazon basin. The people of the Townflat would be like the Mississipian culture maybe.
Those are the indigenous peoples, as we have RPed them. Originally distinct, now nearly extinct. They are increasingly pushed out of their native lands, westwards, and they join the Zuma, forming the Zuma Coalition.
The people who now inhabit Terran and most of Barca are different. Genetically, they are probably 50% "Pirate", 40% "Colonist", and 10% "Indigenous."
Pirate- I guess we can think Hispanic; tan skin– but that's up to Madinan players. I forget if they RP their people as more Caribbean or Mediterranean. WHichever they choose, it makes little difference to me.
Colonist- White, European. Ethnically very similar to whatever the primary demography of Pian en Luries and Morek is. I understand Pien en Luries and Morek are different, but hopefully some kind of common thread will be present, given they are both "colonial" realms, and it's been less than a generation since Dwilight was settled.
Indigenous- Certainly darker-skinned, central American or Caribbean. They have internal differences, but those differences are less significant as they are squashed together in increasingly smaller lands and forced to mingle to survive. And as their genes are diluted through the dominate Pirate and Colonist populations, they "show up" less. Some small communities of primarily indigenous people remain, especially in regions like Mistight, Thysan, Odona, Shoka, Rettlewood, Celtiberia– borderlands, but, for the most part, they are gone.
Does that help?
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At the risk of sounding like a party-pooper... I was under the impression that apart from the regions of the 4 starting realms, population levels in the rogue lands were extremely low at the opening of Dwilight. And since population only grows through birth and immigration, wouldn't this make all people on Dwilight, save the Zuma and a few tiny minorities, descendants of the 4 colonial realms? Aka, whiteys?
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They'd be like of mixed descent or something.
Then again, it's not unthinkable that pockets of survivors remained somehow that the eastern immigrants couldn't find. That, or if we really get strict about mechanics, the lowest any region can get is 1. So...the one person in a region gets lonely, finds the only person of opposite gender in a neighboring region...And apparently BM is a hitech game where gestation period is a few hours, and babies grow at highly accelerated rates.
There, you have your natives.
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Vellos: That does help, and a lot. I guess we can make in the Mesoccidens and Maroccidens a parallel of the Americas. We'll have to work around to conciliate that with the northern "Saxon" RPs, though. The good part is that the same ethnic can be traced from the Zuma Coalition and Terran down to Madina and Fissoa.
The story is very interesting, and provides a very nice ambient for both the Zuma Coalition culture and the Daimons, though it never makes ethnic statements (eye, skin, hair, facial appearance).
Sacha: How low were the populations? In any case, such minor game-mechanic-wise issues would be a minor concern, at least to me.
Caerwynians/Itaulondians/Asylonians: Your local cultures are at the borders of the Everguard's "Saxons", the yet undefined Darfixians and the American Zuma. How do you envision your natives?
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Hey JPierreD, we actually don't have to work around anything. Remember, Dwilight is NOT by any means Earth. As far as Dwilight is concerned, people who look Chinese can border people who look Norse (Which at least in terms of region theme naming, they kinda do...Donghaiwei duchy and Nifelhold duchy)
So as far as I see it, we shouldn't be too hung up on Earth parallels when we set our cultures and appearances. So what if the Zuma are Mesoamerican analogues? Don't let that stop you from saying the inhabitants of the midwestern forests look like European natives of the Black Forest. Hey, maybe you could say the people of Echiur and Kosht look Indian (The southwest Asian Indians).
It's all good, because Dwilight doesn't have to conform to the same standards of human "evolution" and cultural dispersion as Earth for a whole ton of reasons that would, under different circumstances (like if Mars was a terraformed and habitable planet that evolved its native human life by some infinitesimal coincidence), work its way into a 700-page book.
Let's just say more simply: Embrace the fantasy aspect. That means a lot more liberty regarding just what groups of peoples can be in close proximity. And that, I believe, is unaffected by SMA. Nothing about SMA says you can't have people who look like Egyptians living in regions bordering people who look like Australian aborigines. Nor is it impossible that two similar cultures by Earth's standards appear on opposite sides of Dwilight.
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At the risk of sounding like a party-pooper... I was under the impression that apart from the regions of the 4 starting realms, population levels in the rogue lands were extremely low at the opening of Dwilight. And since population only grows through birth and immigration, wouldn't this make all people on Dwilight, save the Zuma and a few tiny minorities, descendants of the 4 colonial realms? Aka, whiteys?
Not so. Consider epidemics. The first colonists arrived when we had no data concerning Occidens; it was a dark spot on the map. The first colonists brought rats, and flees, and germs. Disease could have swept through these continents, drastically reducing the native populations.
Also, yes, population levels were low, a few hundred per region, tops a thousand or two in cities... but that's still a total of several thousand people over a geographic area. Yes, much less densely populated in the present, but certainly not completely empty.
Finally, there is well-established RP of pre-colonization realms, such as the Echi'urean Dynasty. In Maroccidens at least, we have the legacy of Echi'ur on one front and the Zuma beside us. We in Terran are pretty darn well convinced that the present realms are not the first "high civilization" to exist in these lands. We're just the most recent and the best, and the one favored by the gods.
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Pirate- I guess we can think Hispanic; tan skin– but that's up to Madinan players. I forget if they RP their people as more Caribbean or Mediterranean. WHichever they choose, it makes little difference to me.
Never really described a general racial feature of 'pirates' consider them as a mixed group of indigenous people, your colonist group .
Offcourse these people would be more tanned and even immigrants from outside dwilight wouldn't feel attracted to the hot searing sun if there not used to it.
The creation of Madina and it's culture that I mainly established are indeed inspired on Caribean (dutch) colonies as well as indonesian, the mediterranean culture and Keralan culture (a province of India).
I personally see Dwilight as heavily intermixed races from the entire BM world.
But if you'd like a dsicription of the pirate kind of commoners:
1. more tanned then 'usual'
2. a weird combination of very ambitious trade folks and very lazy people(fluctuating per season), what ever profession they have they will always be merchants. Making up new ways to make 'mo' money'.
3. at-least in Madina they wear a lungi like cloth as pants, like these gentlemen here: http://www.google.nl/imgres?q=keralan+lungi&um=1&hl=nl&tbm=isch&tbnid=C4E_Nx9iJYwPWM:&imgrefurl=http://rummuser.com/%253Fp%253D3727&docid=0zb0yCEOxYDCcM&w=300&h=400&ei=5HMqTr-lKcrO-Qb4wPDdBg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=378&page=3&tbnh=149&tbnw=112&start=16&ndsp=9&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:16&tx=67&ty=42&biw=888&bih=457
4. They drink heavily and are considered 'rough' in there behavior.
5. fish and fishing plays a central role in there lifes as well as the coconut tree as it supplies them with food, housing and luxury products (coconut treas can provide great fibre, great wood for building sea fishing boats, there leaves are great roofs, baskets chairs or whatever when you weave two of them in each other. it also provides with food, juice, a great oil a sweetener and an easy way to make some natural liquor.)
6. they talk loud and use there body to express there selves allot as is common among many merchants, as they often only have these gestures to communicate as not every costumer speaks the same tongue.
I also wrote an article on the madinan commoners here: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Madina/Library/book12
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Not really sure how I feel about a Germanic theme for Maroccidens. Doesn't seem to fit in at all. The weather, climate, and atmosphere have never screamed anything German themed.
Also, why a Berber-like ethnicity?
Pretty much, in my own mind at least (and that's just me, of course), most of Maroccidens has always taken a strong South American/Caribbean feel for me.
I didn't mean for them to be German themed at all although I can see how that wasn't clear. I only meant German tribe-like in the way that their are multiple tribes of a similar culture who sometimes war but sometimes act semi cooperatively (like they did against the Romans somewhat)
I realize their are probably better examples of such communities that's simply the first that came to mind. Obviously the best example is the small Amazonian tribes as Vellos suggested since it's more directly applicable to the marwood's climate and what not. Also, what would a missipi culture look like?
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Regarding Lurians:
Given the fact that over the course of Lurian history, an estimated 300,000 to 500,000 peasants have perished from war, rogue invasion and famine, I'd say it's an acceptable theory that most, if not all of the native population has long been wiped out in the greater Lurian area, and replaced with the offspring of the colonials. Perhaps a few isolated pockets of natives remain, but the vast majority of people living in Pian en Luries and Luria Nova would be of Caucasian descent (for lack of a better term).
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Regarding Lurians:
Given the fact that over the course of Lurian history, an estimated 300,000 to 500,000 peasants have perished from war, rogue invasion and famine, I'd say it's an acceptable theory that most, if not all of the native population has long been wiped out in the greater Lurian area, and replaced with the offspring of the colonials. Perhaps a few isolated pockets of natives remain, but the vast majority of people living in Pian en Luries and Luria Nova would be of Caucasian descent (for lack of a better term).
Same in D'Hara, except with starvation instead of wars.
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Well, the vast majority of casualties in Luria were from starvation as well. Giask alone saw at least 200,000 deaths over the years.
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Ok, updated the page: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Peoples_of_Dwilight
Made the Zuma based on the Aztecs, the Ugykke (Madinean natives) on the Caribbean and the Lurian natives on mediterranean peoples.
If you want to change names and stuff, feel free to do it, but if you can, let us know. There is still a lot to do.
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Itaulondians are pirates. Nothing more to say :P
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There are no pirate realms on Dwilight.
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Maybe he doesn't mean *that* type of pirate, Rob >_>
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There are no pirate realms on Dwilight.
As founder of Madina, just to clarify: i fully agree.
Madina is NOT a pirate realm.
Its city is build by sailors of a mutnied ship as a new home and a free trading port.
This atracted many merchants and eventually nobles, who founded a Republic on the island in order to civilize and colonize it.
The Republic was mainly designed by the former captain of these sailors, Abbot, my character, but it is still founded by nobles.
Its peasants look and might act like what you know of pirates and the term is used in relation to Madina to explain this culture but in no way should you see the realm as a bunch of commoners, even though it's nobles are in fact, lets say, a little different... :D
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As founder of Madina, just to clarify: i fully agree.
Madina is NOT a pirate realm.
Its city is build by sailors of a mutnied ship as a new home and a free trading port.
This atracted many merchants and eventually nobles, who founded a Republic on the island in order to civilize and colonize it.
The Republic was mainly designed by the former captain of these sailors, Abbot, my character, but it is still founded by nobles.
Its peasants look and might act like what you know of pirates and the term is used in relation to Madina to explain this culture but in no way should you see the realm as a bunch of commoners, even though it's nobles are in fact, lets say, a little different... :D
And then all the smart sailors and artisans set sail for D'Hara as soon as they could, realizing that there was little sailing to be done by this insular realm.
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And then all the smart sailors and artisans set sail for D'Hara as soon as they could, realizing that there was little sailing to be done by this insular realm.
lolz...non non my brother... All of the smart ones sailed to Melodia, then to Shadovar and then when D'Hara was taken over they went to Terran and then Virovene , founded Thulsoma and then back across the ocean joined Asylon, waged a coup took over the kingdom and then .... hehe
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There are no pirate realms on Dwilight.
Got a better name for them? In the thread they have been referred as "the pirates", in opposition to "the colonists", so I went for it. I'll probably try to expand it later, but for now I'm working with the feedback I get.
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They can be mariners. Or seafarers. Or explorers. Or whatever other nautical term you want to use for people that spend a lot of time on ships. But there are no "pirate" realms on Dwilight.
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They might not be pirates.
But we in Maroccidens damn well view them as pirates. They used to hire out droves of assassins and send'em against us. They rampantly loot lands. They sail in ships with red sails (or so the RPs went). They are ruthlessly individualistic and greedy for gold. Whether it's a pirate-themed realm or not, we in Terran will continue calling them Pirates until they clean up their act, get a reasonable, civilized government, learn to play nice with the neighbors, and apologize for all that nastiness from earlier in their time.
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Ethnically-speaking, Terran is mostly Pirate, with lesser Colonist influence. :P
Will try to find another term as Pirate, though not that crass. If anyone gets an idea, it would be quite appreciated.
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Mariners sounds good to me.
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Funny that Mariners was also used by a sub-culture in the Everguardian lore. Oh well..
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Ethnically-speaking, Terran is mostly Pirate, with lesser Colonist influence. :P
Will try to find another term as Pirate, though not that crass. If anyone gets an idea, it would be quite appreciated.
Privateer :) Or maybe Corsair.
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Wouldn't those names have the exact same problem as Pirate?
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Privateers are officially chartered by the crown. They are not pirates. There's a world of difference. Privateers were often funded by businessmen looking to turn a profit. That's really the point of privateers, to get someone other than the crown to pay for it.
Now to the people on the other side of the conflict, there's really not much difference between privateers and pirates. Except that privateers are probably better funded and better equipped, so more dangerous. But still, they do the same thing.
I think that Corsair is just the French version of privateers. But it may be a more accurate term. According to my quick check of Wikipedia privateer is a more modern term, started somewhere around the 1600s, while corsair is much older. Or maybe I'm just reading something into it that isn't there.
Anyway, "pirate" is the completely wrong term. Pirates are outlaws, subject to being hung by whoever catches them. If you're a realm, and your realm engages in a certain practice, it's not illegal in your realm. So you can't be a pirate, because piracy is an illegal act. From your own point of view, it's commerce raiding, privateering, or legitimate warfare. It may be semantics, but it an important distinction.
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For nobles whose familys started in Dwilight (IE first toon is there) would they be considered natives or?...
My family RP up to now has been ship wreck generations ago basically... Long enough to be considered a native by natives in Ciarin Tut but with obvious colonial connections. So Mr Sacha, would I be a Colonists or would I be a Native? :D
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I don't think there are any true natives that are player characters. When Dwilight first opened, it was populated, at least by the players, through emigration (I think, and I believe only a select few were at first invited to move there). Afterwards, the families that started on Dwilight may be either a new family of colonists that formed, or the most recent branch of an old noble family that came elsewhere.
Think of it like this: You are living in the 17th century. You and your ancestors who bear your name have always lived in America. But you are of British descent. You are not from any Native American group. Get the picture? (Not nobles here, but whatever it works as an example of how a family established on a new continent can both claim its origins at the location but not be ethnically native to the region.)
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Indirik, I am not saying they are Pirates or anything else. I am asking for a way these peoples are called. In the same way the Easterners are the people from the East, the Dwili are the people from Dwilight, and the Lurians are the people from the Lurias.
Seamen perhaps? If not, Privateers, though it sounds like an odd name for an ethnicity/culture. Any Madineans or Fissoans to bring forward a name they'd like to bear?
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S-s-seamen?!
Good gosh, are you looking for a reason to have vulgarity reports and SMA complaints sprout from misunderstandings and/or immature players/characters using such a name in adolescent ways?
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Glaumring is native born Dwilli, he was born in Raviel. The rest of my characters were made after him. So that makes him a non-immigrant!
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Why can't Seamen get deep into your territory to fertilize it, so you can grow the future of your nation? :P
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You can call'em whatever you want for your project... but you better include, "AKA 'Pirates' ". Because, in Terran, we call'em pirates. And will continue to do so until proper reparations are made for their many villainies.
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I bet 99% of them have not sailed longer than the gap between Tower Fatmilak and Candiels for the last few years. I refuse they be called anything in relation to the seas. They just live on their island and never leave it anymore. They should just be called the insulars. Or insulari, or the like. Fits 'em well.
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Buccaneers would likely suit you, it cover their alleged villainy and their landlubberliness.
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Will take a note on that. It would be interesting to know their own preferred denomination, though.
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Buccaneers would likely suit you, it cover their alleged villainy and their landlubberliness.
"Insular" also has a pejorative connotation.
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i wrote a lot of the everguard stuff... some of it was placeholders but yeah LOL
valkyrjans were a viking ish sort of idea but saxony is okay. as for the unresolved nifel thing, perhaps the king/duke of valkyrja laid claim to the nifel throne?
eddons were supposed to be a mediterranean/north african idea.
i'll expand on my original intentions later
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Oh, great to have you here. Please let me know about what were your ideas, and together with those of Astrum and Summerdale we should be able to reach a consensus. :)
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okay
i can still taste gin but let's do this
steppeners is an okay idea, but i would hate for them to be mongol. yes, they come from big plains. guess what else is big plains? france, germany, into poland and central europe. plains don't have to be mongol. i believe there was a mongol homage in that they abandoned a horse based way of life centuries ago, but they were always french/germanic/celtic in my mind.
the valkyrjans were supposed to be nordic ish, an extension of the toren culture we brought with. to reconcile this with the nifel kingdom, perhaps the duchy of valkyrja was greatly powerful and claimed the title of king of nifel and they had wars? some nonsense like that. it's not too far off a saxon culture anyways, but i feel this is a rare case where everguard was actually there (for once!) first, so our rp supercedes the saxon rp in valkyrja. ic my character (one of the original everguard colonists) always had verbal spars with the saxons over how they just magically appeared. perhaps the saxons were an oppressed minority, but not necessarily one who had had a massive kingdom. that's just their own beliefs (the doctrine).
dulbese were supposed to be italian-ish, but i classified them as mariners because that's what they were. kyrjan and dulbese were never supposed to be vastly different and the fact that they were actually very related sub-groups was supposed to come through. which is why they were so goddamn shy of the everguardians marching in, trumpeting the kyrjan culture. and the whole story of how we laid claim to eidulb was precisely that, a story. perhaps. it was definitely within our massive propaganda bubble. and it gave us good claim to the land so we could kick caerwyn out.
eddons were the strange ones. libbid island was always supposed to be safe and a nice place to live, and the people there soft and very distinct. a lot of the ideas were my own kinda randomly mishmashed together, but they were supposed to be the local ethnics LOL where kyrjans were light skinned and resembled the colonizers, eddons were supposed to be "oh dear, who are they?" they were frequently kidnapped as slaves, but were fierce warriors and hated those who came over the oceans. i always liked the cultural fear of corners and edges that they had, i based it on fear of sharp pointy weapons brought from over seas.
the mountain people were supposed to be highly insular and divided. for instance, in the short time my character was baron of mountain of woe, he wrote an rp that the village, with all 200 people, was divided into 3 guilds and if you weren't a guildman you were likely to have your house burned down and be murdered in the street. so, numerous arbitrary divisions based on little more than personal preference are enforced with murder and rape and such. which made them so fun!
another idea of mine is displaced peoples. i was thinking with dwilight being the land of opportunity, that people from far distant realms came here to make new lives, and are now displaced? the only rp i've done of this is people from the south-east island, toren especially. after living in everguard, which was a toren colony, and having it destroyed, they scattered across dwilight to escape the inquisition and now live as mercenaries or farmers or smiths and stuff. i said that they frequently worship the blood stars in a highly heterodox merging with their traditional faith. do displaced people count in this whole dwilight anthropology project?
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Displaced people certainly count in.
There is a problem of making such vast and different kinds of people in such a small region, that contrasts and creates a micro-world isolated from the rest. It's not very collective/collaborative.
So far we have Mesoccidens+Maroccidens on a Native Central American culture and Candiels Peninsula+Madina+South Fordland in a Native Caribbean culture. That is a huge landmass with quite related culture, with minor differences between ones and the others, allowing for a much more integrated RP.
In contrast, in Everguard you had Nordics, Celtics, Slavics and Mediterraneans, all in one place. You've covered the whole of Europe in a single realm, while six realms (Terran, D'Hara, Barca, Aurvandil, Madina, Fissoa) have two major indigenous cultures, with some minor ones laying around.
My idea is to have a somewhat integrated folklore between the realms, and no realm to be inside its own bubble. But it's up to you what you decide to RP, of course.
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The original Thulsoma would be the only area in the north with a remedial residue of Marrocidden culture in it, because of what little of the culture Glaumring Apasurain would have introduced over his reign. Which would probably have to do with sea culture and foods and different ways of preparing things and possibly even certain cultural events that tie them with Marrociddens. I would also think that the old Thulsoman area may have a bit of Marrocidden immigrants there brought up to work after hearing about a new opportunities in the prosperous eastern continent. Though the population now would be few and most of them probably expelled or exterminated by the xenophobic Saxons that came later.
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Well, how about:
Eddons are related to the whatever is the current islands idea is, or they're part of the maroccidens thing. Event though libidizedd island is really distant from all the other islands. Or they're a small isolate group? $:
Kyrjans are related to saxons and whatever was in the nifel peninsula.
Dulbese are kyjans. kinda. an rp would illustrate their connection.
The plains people are also part of the saxon/nifel peninsula.
So even though my character drew local distinctions in culture as different ethnicities, overall from nifel onwards they're one people. except libidizedd. down to walefishire, not quite grazne, around to aquitain, gaston and darfix and through to that little river bulge under chrysalantis, but not past the river.
so my character was playing the colonizer and saying "oh, they speak a different dialect, they must be a different people!"
Everything works, yes?
and, being of arawak descent myself, the whole caribbean native vs central american native thing is a little iffy. by central american do you mean the related mayan/aztec cultures of mesoamerica? because after that all those other tribes are pretty much the same, down to south america and through the caribbean. you get some weird ones like the yaghan of tierra del fuego, but otherwise it's pretty similar i think.
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I agree, the differences are mostly cultural, rather than physical, but now again, to the early conquerors and their descriptions there seemed to have been more differences. Kinda like your character. It's those stereotypes what I'm using in their descriptions.
Some questions, since I'm fairly new to the game myself:
1) Was the Libbidized Island colonized by anyone before Astrum? I think it was Indirik who said it hadn't been. If such is true, it should come from someone from Astrum their natives' description.
2) Same question about the Mimer Peninsula.
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1. it was claimed and explored by everguard (my character toured the regions a loooong time ago), but colonized by astrum way before we were even close to getting there. we claimed a lot of land but monsters said no.
2. claimed by morek, colonized by morek, nothing to see here folks. i think.
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2) Same question about the Mimer Peninsula.
Claimed by Morek in principle, Astrum wanted to expand over it as a consequence of their need of food and the presence of Everguard on the western shores, political crisis that led Morek to halt food sales putting Astrum to their knees, final compromise agreed by both parties to let Astrum take it but in the end yield it to the church as an independent entity led by the prophet himself. Hence, corsanctum.
Dustole and Indirik certainly can tell you things in more details.
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Alright, nice to know. Then I guess it would be the people from Astrum or from Corsanctum the ones who should have the final say in who did (and does) the local population look like.
Any idea of such, Peri?
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Alright, nice to know. Then I guess it would be the people from Astrum or from Corsanctum the ones who should have the final say in who did (and does) the local population look like.
Any idea of such, Peri?
The local populace is extremely fat, with neckbeards, the women even have neckbeards as do the small children.
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???
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Alright, nice to know. Then I guess it would be the people from Astrum or from Corsanctum the ones who should have the final say in who did (and does) the local population look like.
Any idea of such, Peri?
The penetration of Astrum in the Mimer area was limited, and Corsanctum is more or less the one that grew the peninsula into a well populated region. I'd say it's up to the seconds, perhaps rick (player of hossenfeffer family) may have something to say on this. it was his realm first
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Seems like nobody has been representing Fissoa (and I just skimmed through the thread for the first time) so I'll offer my opinion on that:
I've always thought of the Madinians as of Illyrian pirates, and I guess that influenced my ideas of Fissoa as well.
Fissoa has somewhat of a similar background to Madina, but is at the same time very different. Yes, our main force is called the Fissoa Privateers, but the resemblance practically stops there. Also, the Grand Duchy is generally not roleplayed as a warm, humid climate like Madina is. The rural regions imply produce wheat, and lush forests border the Palm Sea.
Looking at it, it kinda conflicts with our location and everything. An idea might be to treat the mini-peninsula similar to Spain. Dry land in the centre (the Sea), orange trees in the south. However, the Fissoan people seem to be white, in general, as opposed to the mediterranean olive. My character there is even barbarian-like, though he started his carreer in Myern.
Hell, I'll just ask the realm and see what the others think. Just don't make us copies of Madina. A good mix between Luria and Madina might suffice.
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Fair enough. Ask your realm mates, and we'll do what we can about it. But don't forget we are talking about two kinds of people here:
Native Fissoans - Those that were /before/ you came. They could be red, and you could still be Caucasian, as you came from the Mimer Peninsula.
Fissoan Colonists - That would be the group you describe as white, it would be nice to have a loose description of it.
I personally made the Fissoan Natives thinking of a group of Madinean Natives that colonized Southern Forland and both adapted to the local environment and mixed with the Forland Natives.
Here they are: Roi-Poru (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Peoples_of_Dwilight#Poru) and Imanaghan (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Peoples_of_Dwilight#Unclassified)
Of course, this is all subject to the approval and eventual modification or discard from you players of Fissoa.
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I don't want to be rude, or unthankful for your work, but the -Poru names sound kind of ... unfitting. I think I'd survive using Imanaghan though.
Honestly, Fissoa is quite ... British in some of it's ways.
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Don't worry, I'm suggesting and checking if you like it or not. If not, we'll change it.
I think you might have not got it, but the Poru are the native inhabitants of Fissoa, from before the colonization. Like the Iroquois in North America. Poru actually comes from the Guarani (I think... it was a native South American language). Surely you don't want the native Indians to have a British name right? It would like placing Scots where the Apaches should be.
If you do, it's not a problem, will be done, it just sounds a little bit odd.
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Don't worry, I'm suggesting and checking if you like it or not. If not, we'll change it.
I think you might have not got it, but the Poru are the native inhabitants of Fissoa, from before the colonization. Like the Iroquois in North America. Poru actually comes from the Guarani (I think... it was a native South American language). Surely you don't want the native Indians to have a British name right? It would like placing Scots where the Apaches should be.
If you do, it's not a problem, will be done, it just sounds a little bit odd.
Ah like that. My mistake. A simple name-change would do, in that case :)
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How about this?
General name for the 3 groups of natives - Peyak
Madina Natives - Michisiw
Fissoa Natives - Nakatew
Candiels Natives - Nîpîy
It's Cree language.
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How about this?
General name for the 3 groups of natives - Peyak
Madina Natives - Michisiw
Fissoa Natives - Nakatew
Candiels Natives - Nîpîy
It's Cree language.
how about something we can actually pronounce and remember?
perhaps the Fissoan colonists invented a name for the indigenous people ...?
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My idea was for their names to be actually alien and strange, so it helps in the immersion, but that can work as well.
What do you suggest?
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Named the Madinean-based culture as "Seafarers" for now, until someone from their culture gets a better idea, though I kind of like the name.
On their native populations, they remain as I had originally named, since their possible names disapproval did not come with an alternative. If anyone has alternative names to propose, they would be quite welcome.
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I'm just going to throw in my two cents here, I read your original post JP, but not the entire thread yet, so forgive me if this has been addressed: Why is the region's climate referred to as Mediterranean? It's a reference that we understand, of course, but it's a climate archetype labeled by a region that doesn't exist in our characters' world and therefore describes nothing about the region to our characters: it's meaningless to them.
It's an easy fix as well: semi-arid, sub-tropical. This description also makes sense if we are to compare Dwilight to Australia. In fact, there are a few things Dwilight has in common with Australia: the same hemisphere, a desert in the center of the continent, and semi-arid and sub-tropical coastlines.
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That might be a suggestion for the 'development' or 'feature request' threads, since it is defined in IG mechanics the region climates. Perhaps a dev could comment on that.
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Mediterranean in Latin refers to the middle of earth so the term is still useful in describing climate even without the presence of an actual Mediterranean sea in the BM world
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Indeed vanKaya, but if the map is also an accurate geographical layout (latitude and longitude) then Dwilight is not really in the middle of the planet, it's more like Australia.
You are right though that it is acceptable if the languages are borrowed from real life (I'm still new here so I wasn't aware of that) and I suppose it doesn't have to be changed.
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It's an easy fix as well: semi-arid, sub-tropical. This description also makes sense if we are to compare Dwilight to Australia. In fact, there are a few things Dwilight has in common with Australia: the same hemisphere, a desert in the center of the continent, and semi-arid and sub-tropical coastlines.
How do you figure that Dwilight is in the same hemisphere as Australia?
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Was wondering that myself. Didn't think an official planet map was released.
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Was wondering that myself. Didn't think an official planet map was released.
Not really... there are those on the BM cups and mousepads but thats just more of a image than official planet map imo...?
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Anaris, I figured it was only if the map was geographically accurate, in reference to my former post. I'm still new here and didn't know enough to make that claim outright.
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The weather areas listed in the game are more of a nod to player convenience than anything else. I think that just about anyone can see the term "Mediterranean" and know what it means. "Sem-arid, sub-tropical", while scientifically accurate (I guess, I'm taking your word for it because I have no idea) is not all that descriptive to the layman. Just like we assume that everyone in the BattleMaster world speaks the same language. It's a bit of handwaving for player convenience.
As to the world maps, no official world map exists, and I believe Tom has stated that he has no intentions of ever making one. The exact relationship of the continents to each other is indeterminate, and will stay that way.
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Indeed vanKaya, but if the map is also an accurate geographical layout (latitude and longitude) then Dwilight is not really in the middle of the planet, it's more like Australia.
Where can you see latitude and longitude? I have never seen that anywhere.
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Thanks for clearing that up, Indirik, and I apologize for using this topic for my inquiry.
VonGenf, there aren't any, I was defining what I meant by 'geographic.'
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A bit late but: this is an extremely localised ethnography of mine on small tribal groups in the east of the Zuma territories
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight_University/Project_Submissions/Oolong_Political_System
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/me claps