So, I think this is the right place.
I have a problem in my realm, there is a player/char who pauses and unpauses his char every day (last time he pause was 12h ago, and he unpaused just 1h ago), and travel alone.
He doesn´t answer to any messages I send him, he already joined another realm, stayed for a few weeks and then returned to mine just to pause again right after.
Now he just unpaused and tryed to take on a city of another realm.
I have asked my judge to ban him, but my question is, due to this pausing/unpausing thing can I OOC ban him?
Heh, I'm assuming you mean me. OOC bans, so I understand, are for things about cheating.
While I also disagree about the ability to pause and unpause so easily (I am actually surprised I was able to do it in such short time. Before it used to take a lot longer), in the end, what you have listed: ignoring you, pausing/unpausing as per the game allows it, changing realms, trying to take over a city, none of those are against the rules. Possibly not something that is good for the realm (Dude, I freaking hate Nothoi as should be clear anyway), also not anything wrong.
That all said, I do agree that the pausing mechanics should be looked into. But apart from that, try to handle this issue ICly instead of attempting an OOC ban out of possible player frustration. Believe me, I've had situations where I too wanted to OOC ban someone, but in the end, although it wasn't exactly the best of form, it wasn't wrong.
Pausing/unpausing can NEVER EVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be a grounds for banishment, IC or OOC.
Quote from: Artemesia on July 19, 2011, 02:25:05 PM
Heh, I'm assuming you mean me. OOC bans, so I understand, are for things about cheating.
While I also disagree about the ability to pause and unpause so easily (I am actually surprised I was able to do it in such short time. Before it used to take a lot longer), in the end, what you have listed: ignoring you, pausing/unpausing as per the game allows it, changing realms, trying to take over a city, none of those are against the rules. Possibly not something that is good for the realm (Dude, I freaking hate Nothoi as should be clear anyway), also not anything wrong.
That all said, I do agree that the pausing mechanics should be looked into. But apart from that, try to handle this issue ICly instead of attempting an OOC ban out of possible player frustration. Believe me, I've had situations where I too wanted to OOC ban someone, but in the end, although it wasn't exactly the best of form, it wasn't wrong.
I am thinking more of something in the lines of " misbehaving as a player. This is a ban about player behaviour, not character behaviour." This is, at least for me, abuse of the game pause/unpause trait, taking advantage of game mechanics for personal gain.
I agree that pause/unpause are not ground for banishment, but such abuse of the game mechanics enters give grounds for it.
I just wish to clarify if this enters on the lines of " misbehaving as a player" or not.
What I think you failed to mention was how Ramuh had been asking for a ban since last month. Don't even try going into the player misbehavior part, my good friend, as I think you'll open a debate about your own stake as ruler who doesn't want Nothoi to get into war with Fronen due to what my character's doing.
Sure, the pause/unpause thing was a bit unexpected, as I recall that unpausing wasn't possible for at least 2 days. Meh. Even if I didn't pause I still would have done the exact same thing anyway. And what about it? I didn't pause suddenly just to avoid getting caught. In fact you'll notice that the exact opposite is true. At least Fronen now has an entire turn to capture me. Exploiting the system would be if I waited until now to attempt a takeover, then actually got banned, and immediately paused to avoid capture.
Until last month you were in Sint. Not Nothoi. You were their problem not mine.
And this pause, unpause thing goes from months now. Before you moved to Sint, you already pause/unpaused every few days.
Then travelled a little, paused again, unpaused, this comes from months now.
Chance or no, this is abuse of game mechanics.
If it weren´t for the pause/unpause thing a IC ban would be sufficient. But this pause - wait 2 days - unpause - do something harmfull - pause again - wait 12h - unpause again makes me wonder if it is not the time for a ooc ban.
How about you bring this up with some proof about how my actions were intent on abusing game mechanics, especially when the game does in fact allow me to pause and unpause like that, and it is, may I remind you, an Inalienable Right to pause whenever I wish? (Technically: Because I have real life to attend to. In this case it was more like I was simply bored and wanted to cycle to other characters.)
While there is nothing said about how soon I can unpause, the game already has some sort of timer that prevents too frequent and too recent unpausing.
Here's my take: You're just really invested in your rulership of Nothoi, don't like how I just threw a weird loop that causes trouble for you and your realm. Wake up, smell the nice flowering plants of summer, friend: That stuff's par for the course.
Noble returns (23 days, 12 hours ago)
Jackson Li has unpaused the character Ramuh and rejoined the game.
Noble paused (23 days, 1 hour ago)
Jackson Li has paused his character Ramuh Artemesia (Priest of Estahsism).
Out-of-Character from ***** ***** (23 days, 1 hour ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (22 recipients)
He has a habit of unpausing, then repausing after a few hours.
R*** ******
Noble returns (6 days, 16 hours ago)
Jackson Li has unpaused the character Ramuh and rejoined the game.
Noble left the realm (6 days, 15 hours ago)
Ramuh has abandoned the realm and joined Sint.
Noble joins realm (3 days, 2 hours ago)
Ramuh Artemesia (Priest of Estahsism) has traveled to your capital and left everything behind, pledging his service to your realm. He is now an unaligned noble in Nothoi.
Noble paused (13 hours, 27 minutes ago)
Jackson Li has paused his character Ramuh Artemesia (Priest of Estahsism).
Noble returns (2 hours, 48 minutes ago)
Jackson Li has unpaused the character Ramuh and rejoined the game.
And this is just a log from last month. this is not the first time you abuse this.
I kept out the OOC message sender, because there is no need to say who it is, it is there just to show that this is a common thing for you. Unpause, then a few hours later pause again.
Now I´ll stop replying and will wait for a GameDev, GM or someone not involved to reply to my question
So he tried to swipe a city from another realm (I assume he failed). Ban him IC for that.
Quote from: Naidraug on July 19, 2011, 02:33:35 PM
this is, at least for me, abuse of the game pause/unpause trait, taking advantage of game mechanics for personal gain.
What is he gaining from it?
Quote from: Sacha on July 19, 2011, 03:23:08 PM
So he tried to swipe a city from another realm (I assume he failed). Ban him IC for that.
A question on the mechanics, but do paused characters show up to be banned? I never made a note of it when my character was a judge.
The ban shows up on their family page instantly, I believe, if that's what you meant.
that's not what he's asking.. he's asking if it's possible for someone to avoid being banned by being paused and thus using pausing/unpausing as a tool for click war between judge and dodgy character.
whilst i know there's an enforced gap between pausing and unpausing (wasn't it days before? haven't really paused stuff before. aside from pausing an advy to make a new noble).. i've no idea if there's one between unpausing and pausing.
Sounds like a case for the Titans/Magistrates to me, tbh. If you feel he's violating the game rules and/or social contract, report him.
That should have been the step taken in the first place.
Anyway to answer the mechanics question, pausing doesn't protect from bans or executions or...I assume deportations. Such things have been established for a while now you know. A recent example could be seen from the time Vistuvis Adriddae paused while in Netherworld prison and still got fed to minor daemons. It's not an NPC realm-only feature. ALL realms can do that now. What it does protect against is capture, and that's about it. The tradeoff is the inability to do anything.
Quote from: Artemesia on July 19, 2011, 02:25:05 PM...what you have listed: ignoring you, <snip> changing realms, trying to take over a city, none of those are against the rules.
You are correct. These are not against any game rules. But you can be IC banned for any of this. Or for anything else that the judge deems worthy of a a ban. So long as it does not violate the IRs.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on July 19, 2011, 03:40:00 PMA question on the mechanics, but do paused characters show up to be banned? I never made a note of it when my character was a judge.
Yes. Paused character appear in the list of nobles that can be banned. (At least they did last time I was judge. I don't reacall anything that would have changed this.)
Quote from: Artemesia on July 19, 2011, 02:52:13 PMHow about you bring this up with some proof about how my actions were intent on abusing game mechanics, especially when the game does in fact allow me to pause and unpause like that, and it is, may I remind you, an Inalienable Right to pause whenever I wish? (Technically: Because I have real life to attend to. In this case it was more like I was simply bored and wanted to cycle to other characters.)
There are several things wrong with this message, and this thread in general:
- Simply because the game mechanics allow you to do something does not mean that doing it, either repeatedly or in a certain manner, cannot be considered abusive. The game will allow you to send 500 messages to your ruler per hour, for days on end. But doing so would pretty much be abusive behavior. "The game let me do it" is not an impervious shield to justify any possible action you can take. That's why we have inalienable rights, the social code, titans, magistrates, etc.
- Nor are the Inalienable Rights an impervious shield to justify and excuse any particular behavior that someone thinks they can twist into falling under their umbrella. Players occasionally try to use the IRs as a way to let them do things to advance their personal agenda while avoiding any IC repercussions of their actions.
- Nor would the fact that the character gets no benefit out of a particular behavior be an indication that a particular action is not abusive or inappropriate. Griefing is a popular behavior that people like to do to piss of other players. There is no IC gain from such an action. But it's still not good.
Hey Indirik, I hope you're reading the fact that I am all for having my character ICly banned (A goal in fact). It is the other part about how apparently this is a player issue.
First of all, how has my pausing and unpausing actually had any impact on other players, besides them wondering why I never play for any long period of time? Is it unduly distracting (Like the supposed 500 messages a day?) that leads to other players decreasing their enjoyment of the game to see me keep pausing and unpausing?
Let's be clear: Before this latest attempt to claim Dyomoque, I did nothing but travel around in my active periods. Joined Sint, found them to be a bore, returned. Heard no complaints there, huh? But once I take an IC justifiable action of attempting to bring in Dyomoque to my own control with a religious takeover, now the ruler of Nothoi starts sweating. Huh, funny how that works.
So if we disregard the RTO attempt (Which was made after an unpause with ample time for countermeasures already) then what exactly, was abusive about me traveling to Sint and back to Nothoi but pausing in-between just because I felt like it? Even the RTO I don't think counts as abusing anything, because that same opportunity and same outcome would have presented itself regardless of any pausing.
Man, as of now I think this is just some way to vent frustrations on me for being whimsical about playing.
You forget to mention the other months of equally pause/unpause? It can be annoying.
The fact that you tryed to RTO a city is only a fact that made me think that you want to harm the realm for OOC reasons.
there is no frustration since everything in Nothoi is moving accordinly.
No player issue here...I just see an abuse of the feature with a possible atemptive to harm for OOC reasons and asked a question if this would fit into the OOC ban reasons.
If you want to be banned so much, why not just leave? again...
You can not win BattleMaster. Therefore, playing together is more important to us than playing against each other. We expect you to play the game as you would play a board game with good friends, and to value fair play above any victory or power.
Artemesia, can you honestly say that the way you are playing your character conforms to the social contract guidelines above?
Quote from: Artemesia on July 19, 2011, 06:10:22 PMHey Indirik, I hope you're reading the fact that I am all for having my character ICly banned (A goal in fact). It is the other part about how apparently this is a player issue.
None of that invalidates any of my prior statements. I'm not passing judgment on this instance of supposed abuse/cheating. I know enough about player behavior, selective quoting, and only revealing info that supports your side of the argument, to know that I don't know enough of this particular case to be able to make a reasonably accurate judgment. so I'm only commenting on the portion of the forum post that I quoted, and the associated inaccuracies of it.
QuoteFirst of all, how has my pausing and unpausing actually had any impact on other players, besides them wondering why I never play for any long period of time? Is it unduly distracting (Like the supposed 500 messages a day?) that leads to other players decreasing their enjoyment of the game to see me keep pausing and unpausing?
I did not say that it was. What I said was that just because game mechanics allow you to perform an action does
not mean that said action cannot be done abusively. "The game let me do it" is not an ironclad defense.
Quote... what exactly, was abusive ...
Where, exactly, did I say that what you did was abusive?
I can, in fact, say that my playstyle is no more unacceptable than already established methods of subverting a realm. Look, we can nitpick about language and details all we want, but in the end, as a player, I believe I've done nothing against the rules or spirit of any rules to warrant an OOC ban.
For one thing, the lack of will to contribute does not equate to actively trying to decrease other players' enjoyment. Did I pause/unpause a lot? Sure, but nowhere near as frequently as some people want to claim. Check my character logs if you wish. In the year 2011, I have paused/unpaused Ramuh probably less than 10 times total (I count a pause/unpause as one instance). Is that a lot? Over a time period of 6 months?
I will continue to assert that had I not tried an RTO no one would have made any noise and left me to my own devices. The fact that this was disruptive meant they said something. But let's not allow the background issue confuse us about the issue at hand. Either:
1. There is a complaint about my pausing/unpausing being highly disruptive.
2. There is a complaint about me doing an IC action.
I did not attempt to bypass any mechanics, and devs who have worked with me in the past would know that, however rough and controversial I may be, in the end I am honest in my play.
Quote from: Naidraug on July 19, 2011, 06:21:52 PM
If you want to be banned so much, why not just leave? again...
Being banned is part of the game. It is something people may want to experience. To do that, you need to make enemies. It seems he has made enemies.
There is no fun in just leaving. He wants to leave a mark.
Quote from: Naidraug on July 19, 2011, 02:14:54 PM
So, I think this is the right place.
I have a problem in my realm, there is a player/char who pauses and unpauses his char every day (last time he pause was 12h ago, and he unpaused just 1h ago), and travel alone.
I didn't think this was possible. I thought there were like at least 3 or 4 turns before one can unpause.
Pausing is meant to compensate for ooc inactivity, and the game clearly states so. It should not be abused.
That being said, as others have pointed out, pausing offers little protection. It does not prevent bans.
That is true. This event seems to be a strange exception, and I wasn't actually expecting to be capable of unpausing. But since I did, I figured, meh, might as well play the guy.
In addition, I am quite unhappy with how Naidraug claims that I am a "player/char who pauses and unpauses his char every day" because truth be told, that has never happened except for this most recent case. In fact, every time in the past I couldn't do that everyday even if I wanted to.
Like I said, check my activity logs if those exist, let the statistics speak. Due to my nature y'all are probably thinking "Ah, Artemesia, evil bastard!" but whatever, really. If worse comes to worst, I'm cool with refraining from any active characters in-game.
I'm not judging your specific case, as I haven't bothered with any of the details. If he wants a judgement, he'll have to go through the official procedure.
This is silly.
If your character doesn't like his character, for perceived harmful actions to the realm or because of his funny hairstyle, just IC ban.
Problem solved. I don't understand why this has become such an issue.
Quote from: Perth on July 20, 2011, 07:01:15 AM
This is silly.
If your character doesn't like his character, for perceived harmful actions to the realm or because of his funny hairstyle, just IC ban.
Problem solved. I don't understand why this has become such an issue.
This has nothing to do with my char not liking his char.
I saw something I considered abuse, and came here to see if would give grounds for OOC ban. The IC issues I solved IC.
He came here asking for advice on an OOC ban. I've done the same before. I don't think it's become a huge issue. <shrugs>
well. if your judge can ic ban him even when paused, then he can't evade ic bans.. so how he pause and unpause doesn't really matter and would in any case be a titan issue.
this question probably arose as judge does ic ban and ruler does ooc ban. one would imagine questioner (ruler?) did not know whether ic ban can be done to a paused char, seeing as he ain't the judge.