Call it nostalgia. Call it me trying to remember why I quit 3+ years ago and why it still doesn't feel the same. Whatever the case, I went back last night and read through a lot of the old posts on the old RP list. And I mean "before you could physically have characters on FEI because right now it's only a map" old. And I was reminded of the incredible community that was built on three simple tiers. A singular jpg image of a map. A collective of creative minds. And a desire to build an incredible story.
Ultimately, mechanics were necessary to resolve conflict and to prove in game terms what had been narratively described. But the heart of FEI was always in building the world together. And now, looking back, I'm confident in saying that's why the island lost its luster and why long ago it lost its "RP Island" description. Once the characters dropped in, the world was populated, the secessions started to happen, and mechanics could replace a good story, it did. All three of the tiers fell down or were replaced. What was once a simple sandbox map became a tactile simulationist playground. Still good, still fun. But not equivalent. Where once we had a community banded together by creativity, we now felt fixated on the mechanics and how to get the game to do what we wanted instead of simply roleplaying it to be so, and then rolling with the punches. And then, our "story-first" mentality went down the drain and was replaced by a more "me-first" gamist attitude. Again, not a horrible thing. Most people like a game they can win. But it's not what the island was built on.
So what did that original worldbuilding, story first community turn to? Again with Tom's help, we attempted to revive SpellMaster. Characters were made and developed through interactive narrative, creative juices flowed about simple mechanics, and again we only had the flat map to unite our vision. Touting a lower playerbase, we had some good fun for a few months until we got bogged down again in the mechanics issue and people started losing interest when story alone seemingly couldn't resolve issues and they felt the mechanics were not coming soon enough. So again, it eventually fell flat.
Dwilight showed up but from day one, that project seemed all about the simulation and not at all about the story, so it never drew the same crowd.
I guess what I'm getting at is that in my opinion (and I don't think I'd be alone- though a number of the original worldbuilding crew has moved on like I did) BattleMaster has never been better than when it truly operates as a group of friends sitting down with just an image and some creativity to build an amazing story. So... who wants to build a world together?
((Tip of the cap to such sources as this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory) and this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Model), where I've learned much, as well as learning and losing a good bit in my own tabletop RPG writing endeavors.))
So.. you want a lot of RPs on FEI? or do you want to gather friends who would do RPs together?
(Sorry.. I might have misunderstood your post.)
Ha. Neither. I miss the community created by working on a project like FEI before it opened. It would be fun to develop another setting, but maybe knowing this time it would eventually be turned over to the gamists/simulationists for them to have some fun too.
So, basically, you want a shared-world play-by-post roleplaying group, where the world is based on a BM or BM-style map?
Sounds to me like that's something that could be done pretty well through the forum, in the RP board. Perhaps with some people "rediscovering" a South Island? That's a map we've got ready-made, and it's got some potential built in.
Or, once the current coding pushes are done, I can bug Tom again about the idea of a human-led Invasion. He seemed at least open to the idea, and that would pretty well fit the idea of coming up with a big, coherent story and then turning it over for gaming uses.
Funny you should mention that, Bedwyr. The last SM revival we had was just as Tom was preparing for another invasion on BT. We tried to convince him to have this one lead by human-controlled SpellCasters. :D
But yes, either of those ideas are right on the mark and have promise.
As one of Those People Morningstar is talking about re: FEI, I wholeheartedly support this idea, and would even support it with a couple of kidneys and a spleen if it were tied to a human-led invasion.
That sounds very interesting :) A human-led invasion. But how will this be different from a GM controlled invasion? Would it be like a bunch of players from other continents invading BT?
I think the idea for a human-led was to have human realms invade the mythical daimon/undead/monster homeworlds. Kind of a reversed roles from the previous invasions.
Yep, I think that's what I had gathered. And the homeworlds need to be generated and have some flesh to them or they'll feel cold and unbelievable.
That is a cool idea. but doesn't that mean Tom has to make like three different maps?
Mm, keeping in mind this was a two minute conversation I had with him a year ago, he seemed at least somewhat interested in the idea of humans Invading the Blighted lands to reclaim them, or, alternatively, another continent Invading Beluaterra to either help or hinder efforts to reclaim the Blight.
As one of those early FEI denizens, I'd love to see something like that again. It was intense, it was engaging, and it was utterly irresistible. It's been too long since I woke up in the middle of the night and got out of bed to post something Zhao just had to say right now before I'd forgotten it.
I'm game for anything that might capture that magic again - a freeform forum+map, "rediscovery" of one of the islands, or fighting the daemons of BT or the Blighted Lands using the current game mechanics - all sound very appealing to me. How can I help? :-)
-Greg
Quote from: Bedwyr on August 01, 2011, 11:23:22 PM
Mm, keeping in mind this was a two minute conversation I had with him a year ago, he seemed at least somewhat interested in the idea of humans Invading the Blighted lands to reclaim them, or, alternatively, another continent Invading Beluaterra to either help or hinder efforts to reclaim the Blight.
If BT is lost in the next invasion, a later counter-invasion to free it would be awesome. The Blight could have changed BT's geography too (an excuse to change it for an original map, if desired).
I'd rather we not lose it to begin with, though.
Discovery and detailing of places is one of the great things about Battlemaster, and you don't need a whole new continent created specifically to do that.
Here's something you could do right now: pick a region. Find its population. Then figure how many villages, towns and/or cities would be in it. Then write the names of some of those smaller settlements. Make up a tiny story to go with each one. Put it on the wiki, and/or forum, and go to town in it (ha, no pun intended) in roleplays.
Quote from: Daycryn on August 02, 2011, 05:32:22 AM
Discovery and detailing of places is one of the great things about Battlemaster, and you don't need a whole new continent created specifically to do that.
Here's something you could do right now: pick a region. Find its population. Then figure how many villages, towns and/or cities would be in it. Then write the names of some of those smaller settlements. Make up a tiny story to go with each one. Put it on the wiki, and/or forum, and go to town in it (ha, no pun intended) in roleplays.
See, I think that's what I'd throw under the "simulationist" bus where Dwilight fell. That gets too much into the nitty gritty details. We're not looking to have an encyclopedia full of random places and people. We're wanting to create an epic storyline and watch it take on a life of its own.
Quote from: Morningstar on August 02, 2011, 07:05:53 AM
See, I think that's what I'd throw under the "simulationist" bus where Dwilight fell. That gets too much into the nitty gritty details. We're not looking to have an encyclopedia full of random places and people. We're wanting to create an epic storyline and watch it take on a life of its own.
The idea that a few people can make an epic storyline that everybody else will want to participate in seems a bit odd.
You create storylines by making small details and blowing them up. Pick a small town (say, Nazareth) and declare that something spectacular happened (say, God lived there). Fight and die for it.
Storylines are only epic in retrospect.
"Epic" was probably not the best choice of wording, but I can tell you're going to want to argue semantics, regardless. There were dozens of nuanced story arcs created in the early days of FEI that provided opportunities for lots of people to jump in at different angles and with different perspectives. It's what made the island such an initial draw for people.
Creating something from the ground up on such a large scale quickly makes everything pretty organic in the way it plays itself out, if it's done well. You can create a small story about a simple town and have a limited number of people feebly attempt to participate in something they can't fully dive into. Or you can crack open a brand new drawing pad, throw open a box of crayons, and say "kids, draw a picture"- I guarantee you'll get bigger, better, and more numerous results from the second.
The devil is in the details.
It's all good and well to want to start a large, engrossing, creative project, but it's another thing to create interesting character developments and interactions. As a writer, I find myself doing the former - starting Great New Projects - and it's a form of procrastination to avoid doing the latter.
Creating a new project appeals to people who like to create and work on large new projects. It doesn't necessarily appeal to people who like to create nuanced story arcs. Are you sure it's the latter you really want, and not the former?
Because as I said, you don't need a new island, new projects or new in-game places in order to make nuanced storylines, epic characters etc. The world IS big enough, believe it or not.
It just takes doing: writing, getting people involved. If you find roleplays aren't something people can "fully dive into" and only "feebly attempt to participate in," this is a question of dramatic interest or appeal, and general awareness of the roleplay. If it doesn't directly intrigue players MAKE it do so by affecting their characters. Drag their characters into the action kicking, screaming, and hopefully bleeding. You'll get more action with blood and sweat than with crayons.
Quote from: Daycryn on August 03, 2011, 06:31:44 AM
It's all good and well to want to start a large, engrossing, creative project, but it's another thing to create interesting character developments and interactions. As a writer, I find myself doing the former - starting Great New Projects - and it's a form of procrastination to avoid doing the latter.
Creating a new project appeals to people who like to create and work on large new projects. It doesn't necessarily appeal to people who like to create nuanced story arcs. Are you sure it's the latter you really want, and not the former?
The original FEI history and startup intrigue was fascinating specifically
because it was made up of carefully crafted, developed characters who played off of each other and whose players were constantly learning about their own characters as they went along. No worldbuilding could truly be organic and believable if it were all about places and landmarks and ancient history. The characters within are what make the canvas pop with beauty and draw people in.
I'm finding it difficult to debate the matter with people who are saying "you're clearly doing it wrong" when my argument was "we clearly did something right and then went away from it". I don't need anyone to tell me how to build a world or how to draw people to such a project. We did it a few times, as mentioned in the OP. I've written mechanics and settings for a number of tabletop RPGs personally. It's like we're arguing different premises or something.
Maybe my inferences to the gamist/narrativist/simulationist model were overlooked and so much of what I said is not really being understood. Maybe some are trying to "fix"
my problem with the game, which wasn't the point and they're proving mine in doing so. Or maybe I've just been away too long and am simply being reminded that some people just like to argue. Not sure.
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand your position as well as make mine known. Honest.
I guess my confusion is that you seem to be hearkening back to a golden age which you want to have back; whereas my position is that there was no such golden age, it's just that that early FEI was interesting and fun to you.
I admit I wasn't around for the founding of FEI. But I found realms and roleplays interesting there (and elsewhere) specifically because of what you pointed out: carefully crafted, developing characters who play off of each other.
That said, how would you describe we went away from that? I just don't see that there was indeed a 'golden age' which we somehow lost touch of at all. I see interesting (not feeble!) characters and interactions all over the place. And where I don't, I see opportunities to make them happen.
I'm not really seeking to debate or argue for the sake of it, but: creating a new "drawing pad" as it were entails a huge amount of effort by Tom and the development team. I would just like to clarify whether that is really needed, and possible workarounds for the problems it is to solve.
Quote from: Daycryn on August 03, 2011, 07:51:47 AM
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand your position as well as make mine known. Honest.
I guess my confusion is that you seem to be hearkening back to a golden age which you want to have back; whereas my position is that there was no such golden age, it's just that that early FEI was interesting and fun to you.
I admit I wasn't around for the founding of FEI. But I found realms and roleplays interesting there (and elsewhere) specifically because of what you pointed out: carefully crafted, developing characters who play off of each other.
That said, how would you describe we went away from that? I just don't see that there was indeed a 'golden age' which we somehow lost touch of at all. I see interesting (not feeble!) characters and interactions all over the place. And where I don't, I see opportunities to make them happen.
I'm not really seeking to debate or argue for the sake of it, but: creating a new "drawing pad" as it were entails a huge amount of effort by Tom and the development team. I would just like to clarify whether that is really needed, and possible workarounds for the problems it is to solve.
My understanding was that the FEI, when it started was not an in game island. Thus all interaction was through the RPs. The argument is that once the island was created in game, there was a push by some players that were more focused on the game mechanic elements that gradually eroded the strong RP emphasis of the island.
There was something... unique about being able to follow the stories of people in other realms, and because of that, the goings on of other realms. It was the RP list that largely made that happen. I fully recognize that not every player jumped onboard with that, but the ones that did- even if only out of vague interest- seemed to be hooked. It was like being a part of a novel that was being written, but you only had control over your own individual aspect and so the outcome was always unknown and kept you on the edge of your seat.
Greg is absolutely right about sometimes waiting up to see just who might jump in next or waking up in a cold sweat because that speech you wanted to make on the Senate floor finally came to you. And there was an entertainment value to it. You wanted to keep the other players entertained. And so there was thought put into everything that was put out there because you didn't want to disappoint.
You ask how we went away from it? And that's where I point back to the simulationist parts of us taking over. Instead of describing the journey from Ipsosez to Haul and perhaps even having conversations on the way with a traveling companion, eventually we had mechanics to show- without description or narrative- that we were indeed moving from Ipsosez to Haul. And if we weren't in the same region literally in mechanics-terms, interaction with a non-realm member was extremely difficult. To the point of it ceasing altogether. Once the mechanics were in full swing, the roleplaying on the mailing list quickly became (mostly) banter between the rulers that people wanted to make sure remained public. And even that, after awhile, went away. Aside from that, the rare posts were typically done when attempting to describe or initiate something intra-realm and it was the best and only way to make that happen. Narrative was replaced by Simulation.
As the simulation began to shape the way we narrated the story, we also had a second (or third) influx of characters. Ones that were more eager to get into the number-crunching side of things and to find out how they could best improve their standing/stats/titles/etc. And, while there's nothing wrong with that- we all, to some degree, play games to win them. But even more by this point, Narrative was being replaced by Game. No longer was everyone attempting to describe what happened. And they weren't even just letting the simulation describe the events for them. Now we had those who were looking to specifically make the game mechanics do something for them that is anathema to the "Story First" crowd- win.
And because we had all largely abandoned the thing that had once kept the story going (the unifying mailing list), the ones who wanted to focus on "story" felt detached and cut off. I remember big arguments coming about around this time that the "strategy players are taking over and can't we do something to make them actually roleplay?" The reaction, obviously, was "We are roleplaying. We're playing our roles as if we were the character. This is what I would do!"
The big divide of "RPers" and "Strat players" squared off, like they usually do. "It's pointless to have to try to read through someone's 4 pages of drivel about how their mommies were mean to them and their brother took all the good candy. Just play the damn game!" came from one side, while "They're ruining my story because all they care about is the numbers. That's not what real roleplaying is!" was shouted back.
The problem is, and has always been, that this game at its core is a simulation. It at least used to say that flat out somewhere in the early descriptions, and probably still does. Everything about the mechanics is to simulate actual events and put it in text format for people to read and interpret. And coming at this from two opposite ends of the spectrum are crowds who want to "beat the game and get the highest score" or "I want to develop an incredibly original character idea about a pirate captain who has personality quirks, hates to lose his hat, and can't seem to keep track of his ship- and no it's not been done before!" Both are playing the "roleplaying game". Both are playing it the way they know how. But both don't always see eye to eye on how to go about that.
Gamists had an outlet with the South Islands and now with the War Islands mini game. FEI originated as a haven for the Narrativist, but I just gave you the evolution of the island and hopefully nobody disagrees that it hasn't been that in a long time.
Hopefully I did a better job of explaining myself. I'm not looking for massive overhauls to the game in order to make things "interesting and fun to me". I like the game (always have) for what it is. I'm just pointing out that there was a number of longtime players- many who had been around since 2004 or some even the full duration of BM's existence- who found the startup of FEI to be the single greatest thing to happen to the game. And we'd like a chance to try that again in some capacity.
As for a new drawing pad taking up way too much time for Tom and the devs... well, for one, a number of those interested in such a project are devs. They can decide for themselves what they can handle. And two, did you miss the part about SM and FEI both starting off as nothing but a freeform mailing list? ;)
Quote from: De-Legro on August 03, 2011, 07:58:45 AM
My understanding was that the FEI, when it started was not an in game island. Thus all interaction was through the RPs. The argument is that once the island was created in game, there was a push by some players that were more focused on the game mechanic elements that gradually eroded the strong RP emphasis of the island.
Or this if my last post was tl:dr
Could it come to conclusion that none of described extremes is good, but good balance between "strategy" and "rp"-ing is what can bring quality of gameplay?
I've been working on some changes that should return more narrative to the game for a long time now.
Unfortunately, over the years the BM codebase has become a pretty horrible mess. We're working on cleaning that up now, which is a requirement for some of the more interesting changes to actually ever be finished.
Quote from: Morningstar on August 03, 2011, 08:27:09 AMI'm just pointing out that there was a number of longtime players- many who had been around since 2004 or some even the full duration of BM's existence- who found the startup of FEI to be the single greatest thing to happen to the game. And we'd like a chance to try that again in some capacity.
So you're looking to start a forum-based RP storyline that takes place on an island that does not exist as playable BattleMaster island? It definitely sounds interesting. I've never participated in any kind of forum-based RP myself. Rather than argue with people about what you're trying to do, why not head over to the RP board, and start defining your project? People can join in, or not, as they see fit.
Quote from: Tom on August 03, 2011, 01:48:55 PM
I've been working on some changes that should return more narrative to the game for a long time now.
Unfortunately, over the years the BM codebase has become a pretty horrible mess. We're working on cleaning that up now, which is a requirement for some of the more interesting changes to actually ever be finished.
How is the code clean up progressing btw? I can imagine it beeing quite frustrating.
Also what kind of changes you had in mind for improving narrative? It's something i sincerely aplaud.
BM is decaying on this level.
I'd be up for it as well, sounds like fun to me.
Quote from: Morningstar on August 03, 2011, 08:27:09 AM
You ask how we went away from it? And that's where I point back to the simulationist parts of us taking over. Instead of describing the journey from Ipsosez to Haul and perhaps even having conversations on the way with a traveling companion, eventually we had mechanics to show- without description or narrative- that we were indeed moving from Ipsosez to Haul. And if we weren't in the same region literally in mechanics-terms, interaction with a non-realm member was extremely difficult. To the point of it ceasing altogether. Once the mechanics were in full swing, the roleplaying on the mailing list quickly became (mostly) banter between the rulers that people wanted to make sure remained public. And even that, after awhile, went away. Aside from that, the rare posts were typically done when attempting to describe or initiate something intra-realm and it was the best and only way to make that happen. Narrative was replaced by Simulation.
As the simulation began to shape the way we narrated the story, we also had a second (or third) influx of characters. Ones that were more eager to get into the number-crunching side of things and to find out how they could best improve their standing/stats/titles/etc. And, while there's nothing wrong with that- we all, to some degree, play games to win them. But even more by this point, Narrative was being replaced by Game. No longer was everyone attempting to describe what happened. And they weren't even just letting the simulation describe the events for them. Now we had those who were looking to specifically make the game mechanics do something for them that is anathema to the "Story First" crowd- win.
If I understand correctly, you're looking for somewhere to have a group of people write a joint story, about their characters in a Battlemaster-type world. But you don't want to be constrained and/or diverted by the in-game actions.
If so, then is there anything to stop you just creating a new Island name, starting a thread for it in the Roleplay area of this forum, and just letting people add to it? It sounds as if you don't need anything other than pen and paper to write this sort of story, and you have the electronic version of both on this forum.
Meanwhile, the beauty, for me, of Battlemaster is that it _does_ provide some in-game actions to constrain me. I like to be constrained. Coming back to your crayon analogy, if you give me a bunch of crayons and a blank piece of paper, I just sit and look at it with a blank expression, having no idea where to start and the overwhelming number of options of things I could draw make me struggle to choose any of them. Whereas if you give me a piece of paper that already has a load of odd lines all over it, and you give me only three colours, then I have a challenge: to make something interesting and beautiful out of what I have. That is a challenge I will enjoy rising to.
I don't want to have an island that has no defined landmarks, where I can decide to put my character wherever I choose, and do whatever he wants. I want the game to help me by giving me region names and descriptions to elaborate on. I want it to tell me what happened in battles so I can expand on that. I want to know who is in my region and who isn't so I know who I can talk to and who I should write to, and to give me an idea where I might travel to next.
There's nothing in Battlemaster now that stops you from roleplaying your journey from Ipsosez to Haul and having conversations on the way - one of my characters did just that last week between two regions. All it meant was that I had to try to time my roleplays to coincide with when I was actually in the region (which wasn't too hard to do, and even if I missed it by a bit, I could just start the RP with
[yesterday afternoon...] to make it make sense.
Although there are a number of players who get so engrossed in the game mechanics that they just press the buttons and read the automatic outputs, there is nothing to stop people from narrating it. You don't _have_ to post a scout report as a scout report link and nothing else. You could, if you so chose, read the scout report, translate it into a narrative, and send that, and not show anyone the actual scout report at all. Same with pretty much any report you might get. Similarly, although when odd bugs happen, a lot of people just write OOC messages saying "lol, bug there", you can perfectly well roleplay them out.
Perhaps if more people roleplayed that sort of thing (especially realm-wide so that newer players copied a bit) then it might happen more. Would obviously take a few people to do it, and would take time, same as it took time to get to where we are now compared to where we started.
It is within our power to bring more narrative to Battlemaster by writing more, and better, but if you actually want the completely blank starting point, then why not ignore the game, and use the forum?
Ahee. So I'm starting to figure out the part about people trying to "fix" me. "Go start things up and see if you get any interest", right?
Welcome to
this thread. Where the original post ended "So... who wants to build a world together?" It's working already, isn't it? ;D
Quote from: Stue (DC) on August 03, 2011, 10:14:42 AM
Could it come to conclusion that none of described extremes is good, but good balance between "strategy" and "rp"-ing is what can bring quality of gameplay?
Yes, in terms of "the perfect game", this is absolutely true. But when it plays out, the games that try to cater to all styles end up muddling around in mediocrity with all of them. As I mentioned before, the game
has to be a simulation. The various player styles pulling it gamist or narrativist is to be expected, but knowing it's virtually impossible to completely please them all is fairly important.
And look, I know the value of "winning" (no Charlie Sheen joke intended... until just now). With my old account, I would sometimes, just for fun, direct some of my more "narrative" action just so I could hit another more elusive point of fame. I certainly love(d) me some tactical battles, as should be clear in my recent suggestions for combat features. But take the "game" out of the "story" and I would still survive. For others, taking the "story" out of the game would be just fine. That's just the way people are wired.
Quote from: Tom on August 03, 2011, 01:48:55 PM
I've been working on some changes that should return more narrative to the game for a long time now.
Unfortunately, over the years the BM codebase has become a pretty horrible mess. We're working on cleaning that up now, which is a requirement for some of the more interesting changes to actually ever be finished.
Awesome. I still don't know how you've managed to balance everything all these years, but I salute you. I tracked down my old Titan resignation email because I felt like I shared something similar then. It still seems to hold true now: "Never lose sight of what originally made it so appealing. It wasn't the features or the functionality. It was the feeling of a close-knit community. Continue to make that an integral part of the game and it can only get better."
I'm not the biggest codemonkey, but if there's anything I might be able to do to help, just yell.
i was not thinking about some ideal mix of two ingredients, but of any mix - whenever one of component misses, that is what stalls game.
if so-called strategists (which often became ugly name for everyone who put emphasis on team work and cooperation) mercilessly push their button with no care for developing their character storyline and flavor, that is bad.
you stated opinion that mixture should be on interplayer level, so good mix of strict strategist and strict rp-ers would make fun, while i never saw it in reality - on contrary that would more likely be double-stall. every player has to use at least on minimal level of style which he does not prefer.
also, if so-called rp-ers ignore in game events and just send their overly long lyrical impression, that is also bad.
it's pity when rp-ing potential is measured by length of green letters - i feel people should develop their characters as actors in play, where stylish verbosity should not be major criteria, not to mention those whose english skills are limited (as myself, for instance).
it is also pretty apparent that without in-game events rp-ing attempts are doomed, lyrical escapades without any dramatical moment simply cannot hold for long.
if you force "button-pressers" to send long letters, or deprive them of their basic buttons, that could be only scenario worse than overall silence in my opinion.
though there are examples where too much buttons kill rp, like too adjustable realm elections options. major political changes in way of changing government system through rebellion would always have great potential for rp, while we have pretty sterile rulers buttons instead.
i could present some more examples where in my opinion game mech issues directly affect rp-ing, but i fear it will go away from main subject.
I completely agree with pretty much everything you said. I'm definitely not one of the purists out there. I'm just looking for some balance. And I definitely agree you can't force people to be something that they're not. Subtle (or not so subtle) nudging is sometimes appropriate to get them to think outside their own bubbles though. After all, the premise of this whole thing is to be a group of friends playing a game together, right? You can't play to the exclusion of someone just because their style of play isn't like yours or it's not very "together".
I think a major change in the game is that the playerbase has aged. The oldest are now 10 years older than when they started--even those like me from 2007, are 4 years older. We've married, had kids, graduated highschool and/or college, gotten a job, etc. So we don't have a lot of time to write or even read long narratives--but we still love battlemaster, and so we become buttonpushers.
Could very well be. Or the same situation happened and so those people moved on from the game entirely. I know that was my deal.
Tell me, Morningstar, do you plan to start a free-form RP of an entirely new world, or a project in an existing one?
I think I'd participate in the first, and if it was in Dwilight in the second too.
I must confess that the simulationist/narrativist separation does seem a little artificial to me, though. I can be considered a heavy simulationist (see the Dwilight Anthropology Project in Dwilight Sub-Forum), but no simulation I plan has itself for objective. It's supposed to be a tool, a not-completely-blank page for narratives to happen. A setting.
And that's just what I'm trying to get at (I think). Nobody's a purist in any of the 3 categories. Or if they really are, they find they have nobody else to play with.
I'm open to all sorts of ideas. New map (we do, after all, have a few new map projects going on), old unused map (someone mentioned rediscovering the South Island), or a tweaking of the current map (FEI is a modified EI, for example).
We'd have to look long and hard at a project in an existing world, because it would all be contingent on what's already been established (which there's no guarantee we could know) and would change based on what happens parallel to the project in the game itself. It's not an impossible endeavor, but it would be tricky. Personally, I think I'd rather start fresh, but I could be convinced otherwise.
Quote from: Morningstar on August 03, 2011, 10:19:21 PM
And that's just what I'm trying to get at (I think). Nobody's a purist in any of the 3 categories. Or if they really are, they find they have nobody else to play with.
I'm open to all sorts of ideas. New map (we do, after all, have a few new map projects going on), old unused map (someone mentioned rediscovering the South Island), or a tweaking of the current map (FEI is a modified EI, for example).
I would deeply love to have a BM map—even if not one that were going to be used
for the game in the foreseeable future—that was designed sensibly, with cities centering areas that the city can hold and protect, and strongholds blocking chokepoints. I would be willing to join in on such an endeavour for that alone.
Quote from: Anaris on August 03, 2011, 10:29:39 PM
I would deeply love to have a BM map—even if not one that were going to be used for the game in the foreseeable future—that was designed sensibly, with cities centering areas that the city can hold and protect, and strongholds blocking chokepoints. I would be willing to join in on such an endeavour for that alone.
Mmmmm, strongholds at actual choke points...
I've played several forum-based freeform games with nothing but a map and a group of like-minded players. It works quite well with the right group of players.
Count me in. :-)
Quote from: egamma on August 03, 2011, 08:05:18 PM
I think a major change in the game is that the playerbase has aged. The oldest are now 10 years older than when they started--even those like me from 2007, are 4 years older. We've married, had kids, graduated highschool and/or college, gotten a job, etc. So we don't have a lot of time to write or even read long narratives--but we still love battlemaster, and so we become buttonpushers.
While I wouldn't go quite that far - I'm more than just a button-pusher - I did definitely scale back my participation. I simply didn't have time to give the game the attention it deserved. I paused all but one of my characters so I could spend what little time I had all on one. Besides, anyone who's played in Outer Tilog knows that it's an addictively-unique sort of place, even on BM terms. I couldn't possibly give that up. :-)
So many of us have too little time to do the game and its characters justice. I love the game, I love the community. I think my BM account is older than just about any account I have on any service anywhere (except maybe my original Gmail account). The fact that it's held my interest for close to 8 years is stunning given how little time I have to play online any more.
This idea of a freeform RP based in the BM/SM universe has definitely sparked my interest. Enough so that I might even find reasons to make more time to play.
-Greg
Quote from: Tom on August 03, 2011, 01:48:55 PM
I've been working on some changes that should return more narrative to the game for a long time now.
Unfortunately, over the years the BM codebase has become a pretty horrible mess. We're working on cleaning that up now, which is a requirement for some of the more interesting changes to actually ever be finished.
I keep seeing good news in random threads. Estate reform possibly by christmas. Other mysterious changes in the works. How will I ever free myself of this game if there's always something juicy and new coming along on the horizon? >.<
Quote from: egamma on August 03, 2011, 08:05:18 PM
I think a major change in the game is that the playerbase has aged. The oldest are now 10 years older than when they started--even those like me from 2007, are 4 years older. We've married, had kids, graduated highschool and/or college, gotten a job, etc. So we don't have a lot of time to write or even read long narratives--but we still love battlemaster, and so we become buttonpushers.
I went through quite a long button-pushing phase myself but now I'm trying to do better. Anyone who feels the same, I implore you to peruse the Making Stuff Happen - A Rant (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,810.0.html) thread. It's inspired me to get my arse in gear once more. If all us button-pushing veterans got our mojo back and started interacting again, showing the young'uns how it's done, maybe we can restore those better days we all remember.
Quote from: Anaris on August 03, 2011, 10:29:39 PM
I would deeply love to have a BM map—even if not one that were going to be used for the game in the foreseeable future—that was designed sensibly, with cities centering areas that the city can hold and protect, and strongholds blocking chokepoints. I would be willing to join in on such an endeavour for that alone.
Both me and Aarth, I believe, posted sample maps on the wiki, (I used the AoW editor, he used copy/paste, similar results). You could use one of these if you don't want an existing world.
Uhhhh, anyone can tell me what happened?
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/User:Ch%C3%A9nier/Submission
Edit: Damn! I used external hosting! My hard drive died out since, I lost the map. :(
Quote from: Revan on August 04, 2011, 01:53:58 AM
I keep seeing good news in random threads. Estate reform possibly by christmas. Other mysterious changes in the works. How will I ever free myself of this game if there's always something juicy and new coming along on the horizon? >.<
Uh-oh! He's figuring out our master plan!
Funnily enough, my page on the wiki was deleted too.. Luckily i found a link from my mail, for I had forgotten flickr username ad password ::)
http://flic.kr/p/5GjSYi
Quote from: Morningstar on August 03, 2011, 08:27:09 AM
There was something... unique about being able to follow the stories of people in other realms, and because of that, the goings on of other realms. It was the RP list that largely made that happen. I fully recognize that not every player jumped onboard with that, but the ones that did- even if only out of vague interest- seemed to be hooked. It was like being a part of a novel that was being written, but you only had control over your own individual aspect and so the outcome was always unknown and kept you on the edge of your seat.
Greg is absolutely right about sometimes waiting up to see just who might jump in next or waking up in a cold sweat because that speech you wanted to make on the Senate floor finally came to you. And there was an entertainment value to it. You wanted to keep the other players entertained. And so there was thought put into everything that was put out there because you didn't want to disappoint.
You ask how we went away from it? And that's where I point back to the simulationist parts of us taking over. Instead of describing the journey from Ipsosez to Haul and perhaps even having conversations on the way with a traveling companion, eventually we had mechanics to show- without description or narrative- that we were indeed moving from Ipsosez to Haul. And if we weren't in the same region literally in mechanics-terms, interaction with a non-realm member was extremely difficult. To the point of it ceasing altogether. Once the mechanics were in full swing, the roleplaying on the mailing list quickly became (mostly) banter between the rulers that people wanted to make sure remained public. And even that, after awhile, went away. Aside from that, the rare posts were typically done when attempting to describe or initiate something intra-realm and it was the best and only way to make that happen. Narrative was replaced by Simulation.
As the simulation began to shape the way we narrated the story, we also had a second (or third) influx of characters. Ones that were more eager to get into the number-crunching side of things and to find out how they could best improve their standing/stats/titles/etc. And, while there's nothing wrong with that- we all, to some degree, play games to win them. But even more by this point, Narrative was being replaced by Game. No longer was everyone attempting to describe what happened. And they weren't even just letting the simulation describe the events for them. Now we had those who were looking to specifically make the game mechanics do something for them that is anathema to the "Story First" crowd- win.
And because we had all largely abandoned the thing that had once kept the story going (the unifying mailing list), the ones who wanted to focus on "story" felt detached and cut off. I remember big arguments coming about around this time that the "strategy players are taking over and can't we do something to make them actually roleplay?" The reaction, obviously, was "We are roleplaying. We're playing our roles as if we were the character. This is what I would do!"
The big divide of "RPers" and "Strat players" squared off, like they usually do. "It's pointless to have to try to read through someone's 4 pages of drivel about how their mommies were mean to them and their brother took all the good candy. Just play the damn game!" came from one side, while "They're ruining my story because all they care about is the numbers. That's not what real roleplaying is!" was shouted back.
The problem is, and has always been, that this game at its core is a simulation. It at least used to say that flat out somewhere in the early descriptions, and probably still does. Everything about the mechanics is to simulate actual events and put it in text format for people to read and interpret. And coming at this from two opposite ends of the spectrum are crowds who want to "beat the game and get the highest score" or "I want to develop an incredibly original character idea about a pirate captain who has personality quirks, hates to lose his hat, and can't seem to keep track of his ship- and no it's not been done before!" Both are playing the "roleplaying game". Both are playing it the way they know how. But both don't always see eye to eye on how to go about that.
Gamists had an outlet with the South Islands and now with the War Islands mini game. FEI originated as a haven for the Narrativist, but I just gave you the evolution of the island and hopefully nobody disagrees that it hasn't been that in a long time.
Hopefully I did a better job of explaining myself.
Aye, you did. Thanks. :)
Personally, I count myself as a 'narrativist' (I guess) and am always up for any opportunity to make good RP in this game. It does get easy, especially in the context of having a real life to attend to (pesky things) to let teh simulation take over and simply "play the game" without any more investment of time/energy than that. I alternate between doing that - the minimalist, beer-and-pretzels mode - and the narrative, roleplaying mode. Count me in for whatever epic project comes of this.
See the new SM board for details, Daycryn.