BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Helpline => Topic started by: Norrel on September 07, 2011, 01:11:28 AM
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Is it possible to emigrate as an adventurer, or am I simply always in the wrong place / don't have enough money to do it?
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Nope. Advies cannot emigrate.
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Is it possible to emigrate as an adventurer, or am I simply always in the wrong place / don't have enough money to do it?
If it is possible:
Telling us the location of your character would be useful. As in, is it in your Capital City?
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Nope. Advies cannot emigrate.
This.
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Nope. Advies cannot emigrate.
What's the reasoning behind this?
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What's the reasoning behind this?
They are peasants and the sea captain will simply kill them and take their money once the ship leaves port.
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They are peasants and the sea captain will simply kill them and take their money once the ship leaves port.
ouch but it is true. Though it would have been awesome if we could move our advies to another continent.
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They are peasants and the sea captain will simply kill them and take their money once the ship leaves port.
Considering how the average adventurer is super rich compared to the average peasant, crazy trained in swordfighting, and decked out in armour, this doesn't really fly with me
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Considering how the average adventurer is super rich compared to the average peasant, crazy trained in swordfighting, and decked out in armour, this doesn't really fly with me
You wear armour while you sleep in the cabin? Even a highly trained sword fighter isn't going to beat down an entire crew. The whole point is that the advy IS super rich, and a peasant, therefore his disappearance is unlikely to be noticed by anyone important.
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That seems a little bit contrived to me, that's all I'm saying. Couldn't he just pose as a regular peasant / stow away / buy a ship himself with his fast fortunes?
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That seems a little bit contrived to me, that's all I'm saying. Couldn't he just pose as a regular peasant / stow away / buy a ship himself with his fast fortunes?
Buy a ship? Who will crew it, who will sell such an expensive item to a lowly peasant? How do you expect that the nobility wouldn't be quite annoyed by a peasant trying to rise above his station in such a way? He could try stowing away, but really that is quite difficult to do on old sailing vessels, there wasn't that many places to hide really.
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Buy a ship? Who will crew it, who will sell such an expensive item to a lowly peasant? How do you expect that the nobility wouldn't be quite annoyed by a peasant trying to rise above his station in such a way? He could try stowing away, but really that is quite difficult to do on old sailing vessels, there wasn't that many places to hide really.
Nonetheless, those possibilities exist, and I don't really see a good reason why it shouldn't be in the game, being as the code for emigration is already there and it doesn't seem to make anything more fun for it to not be there.
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some idiot volunteering to be press ganged? lovely concept.
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No offense, but all those excuses feel quite ..constructed. The reason advies can't emigrate is for OOC purposes, I assume. It's just one of the drawbacks of choosing the class.
A small, but very important, portion of the commoner aristocrats were the large merchants and bankers. While nobles and senior clergy often got involved in lending money, it was the commoners who did most of it. These pools of money were essential for economic growth. All manner of capital improvements, from ship building to industrial expansion, required a large amount of cash to get started. The nobles tended to spend their capital on building splendid homes and fortifications. The church pured much money into cathedrals and abbeys. But vital items like iron works, cloth factories and merchant ship fleets were largely built by entrepenurial commoners. These items produced more wealth, where castles and cathedrals did not. Eventually, this mass of commoner wealth turned into political power and this was beginning to happen even during the Medieval period.
http://www.hyw.com/books/history/Aristocr.htm (I'd look for a better source, but I have an exam in 4 hours :P
In the same way we assume the Nobles to be the very cream of nobility, with even the most basic knight far above average nobility, we probably need to assume Adventurers are far above peasants and the regular commoner. With sometimes enough money to outrank Lords and armour worth huge amounts of money, many Advies concentrate more wealth than many nobles.
I also think that we are pushing the boundaries of our Medieval apartheid too far. Many nobles will have been very pragmatic towards common people, certainly to those with power and money. I can hardly believe Jakob Fugger or Pieter Bladelin were unable to buy a boat, let alone kept from booking a passage.
It's fine tht Advies cannot travel, for some OOC reason. But please don't make up IG excuses for it?
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Nonetheless, those possibilities exist, and I don't really see a good reason why it shouldn't be in the game, being as the code for emigration is already there and it doesn't seem to make anything more fun for it to not be there.
They really don't. Ships were a massive expense and quite prestigious and often supply limited. No dirty peasant is ever going to be able to purchase one. A rich merchant sure, some guy walking out the forest covered in blood with a bag full of gold, unlikely. You also need to remember that the act of a advy leaving his home realm results in a auto ban. Following that logic what do you think would happen to anyone that provided the means for them to leave their realm and continent?
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They really don't. Ships were a massive expense and quite prestigious and often supply limited. No dirty peasant is ever going to be able to purchase one. A rich merchant sure, some guy walking out the forest covered in blood with a bag full of gold, unlikely. You also need to remember that the act of a advy leaving his home realm results in a auto ban. Following that logic what do you think would happen to anyone that provided the means for them to leave their realm and continent?
I think that Shizzle illustrated my point much better than I did.
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They really don't. Ships were a massive expense and quite prestigious and often supply limited. No dirty peasant is ever going to be able to purchase one. A rich merchant sure, some guy walking out the forest covered in blood with a bag full of gold, unlikely. You also need to remember that the act of a advy leaving his home realm results in a auto ban. Following that logic what do you think would happen to anyone that provided the means for them to leave their realm and continent?
With the support of a noble, I wouldn't say it's impossible. Many advies carry around recommendations to be lifted into nobility. The cream of nobility, no less. So I think buying a boat will hardly be a problem, if you have the money.
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With the support of a noble, I wouldn't say it's impossible. Many advies carry around recommendations to be lifted into nobility. The cream of nobility, no less. So I think buying a boat will hardly be a problem, if you have the money.
Fine so lets add ship buying to nobility then. While we are at it Advies should probably be able to buy Paraphernalia and units so long as they have recommendations as well, after all they have the backing of nobility. Hell if they have enough gold they should be able to buy a region and run it as paradise for the lower classes, after all they have recommendations.
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No offense, but all those excuses feel quite ..constructed. The reason advies can't emigrate is for OOC purposes, I assume. It's just one of the drawbacks of choosing the class.
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It's fine tht Advies cannot travel, for some OOC reason. But please don't make up IG excuses for it?
This. +1000.
Contrived arguments like these just lead to long, rambling disagreements and a sense that players in the game aren't really being treated like they have a brain and the ability to reason things through.
If there's a game-play reason, just say "for game play. We don't want advies to have the same abilities as nobles."
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Fine so lets add ship buying to nobility then. While we are at it Advies should probably be able to buy Paraphernalia and units so long as they have recommendations as well, after all they have the backing of nobility. Hell if they have enough gold they should be able to buy a region and run it as paradise for the lower classes, after all they have recommendations.
That doesn't even make any sense. We're not talking about game-breaking stuff that wouldn't add anything to the game, we're talking about adding a feature which would only serve to make the game more enjoyable, and pointing at a variety of ways that would be able to be accomplished in a medieval setting.
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what's wrong with coming up with ic rationale for ooc rules?
irl, there's nothing stopping peasants from forming bandit bands, aside from that militia/army out there waiting to knock them down. does that mean advy should be able to get a unit and beat up nobles?
afaik, it's stated, no migration for advy.
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what's wrong with coming up with ic rationale for ooc rules?
irl, there's nothing stopping peasants from forming bandit bands, aside from that militia/army out there waiting to knock them down. does that mean advy should be able to get a unit and beat up nobles?
afaik, it's stated, no migration for advy.
What's the OOC rationale?
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the game is made so. what more is needed?
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No offense, but all those excuses feel quite ..constructed. The reason advies can't emigrate is for OOC purposes, I assume. It's just one of the drawbacks of choosing the class.
A small, but very important, portion of the commoner aristocrats were the large merchants and bankers. While nobles and senior clergy often got involved in lending money, it was the commoners who did most of it. These pools of money were essential for economic growth. All manner of capital improvements, from ship building to industrial expansion, required a large amount of cash to get started. The nobles tended to spend their capital on building splendid homes and fortifications. The church pured much money into cathedrals and abbeys. But vital items like iron works, cloth factories and merchant ship fleets were largely built by entrepenurial commoners. These items produced more wealth, where castles and cathedrals did not. Eventually, this mass of commoner wealth turned into political power and this was beginning to happen even during the Medieval period.
http://www.hyw.com/books/history/Aristocr.htm (I'd look for a better source, but I have an exam in 4 hours :P
In the same way we assume the Nobles to be the very cream of nobility, with even the most basic knight far above average nobility, we probably need to assume Adventurers are far above peasants and the regular commoner. With sometimes enough money to outrank Lords and armour worth huge amounts of money, many Advies concentrate more wealth than many nobles.
I also think that we are pushing the boundaries of our Medieval apartheid too far. Many nobles will have been very pragmatic towards common people, certainly to those with power and money. I can hardly believe Jakob Fugger or Pieter Bladelin were unable to buy a boat, let alone kept from booking a passage.
It's fine tht Advies cannot travel, for some OOC reason. But please don't make up IG excuses for it?
Would you expect that Jakob Fugger or Pieter Bladelin could be arrested or beaten on a noble whim as we can with Advies. Advies are not of the merchant class, they are of the true peasant class from all appearances. There is vast social difference between the common people and the peasants, with the peasantry being a sub class of the commoners, though depending on the time and place it was somewhat possible to move between the sub classes.
We had similar discussion to this a few months back, that covered all sorts of things like the possible scarcity of ship travel blah blah blah and a more recent one here http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,700.msg12804.html . It is often brought up as so far as I know the devs have no intention of adding it.
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what's wrong with coming up with ic rationale for ooc rules?
because invariably they are based on bad logic, bad knowledge of history, or bad understanding of the capabilities of human beings.
also, it's not the real reason they can't do it - it's just suggestion on how to role play it in game. It doesn't tell us if it was actually intentional that advies can't emigrate (for example), or if is just that no one ever thought to include it (and we should go make a Feature Request)
It is completely unhelpful and usually doesn't answer the question
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because invariably they are based on bad logic, bad knowledge of history, or bad understanding of the capabilities of human beings.
also, it's not the real reason they can't do it - it's just suggestion on how to role play it in game. It doesn't tell us if it was actually intentional that advies can't emigrate (for example), or if is just that no one ever thought to include it (and we should go make a Feature Request)
It is completely unhelpful and usually doesn't answer the question
It is intentional. Its just one of the restrictions Tom places on Advies to make it clear they are different to nobles.
Also bad logic is generall subjective. To me it is bad logic to allow an advy to purchase a ship, but restrict access to cheaper more accessible purchases because of balance. In this case to me the logical thing would be to allow the balance case to rule, which then results in the purchase of ships being somewhat out of place within the game world.
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Fine so lets add ship buying to nobility then. While we are at it Advies should probably be able to buy Paraphernalia and units so long as they have recommendations as well, after all they have the backing of nobility. Hell if they have enough gold they should be able to buy a region and run it as paradise for the lower classes, after all they have recommendations.
That made me smile :) (not trying to be mean)
I'm not being the commy advy leader here, asking for equality. I'm just asking to stop fabricating arguments, to make things "work" in-game. It's perfectly fine that Advies can't emigrate. Sure it would be cool to be able to do it, in the way it would be cool to lead a killer unit to glory - being a Priest.
And you statement that Advies can be beat up anytime, and PB or Fugger not, is untrue. Both figures could have been beaten up on a noble's order, I am sure. However, with the support of powerful allies, they were sheltered from such attacks. In exactly the same way as we see nobles in BM defending their "lap dogs" and friends.
Also, I am aware we discussed this before. That's what these forums are for, no?:)
Lastly, I can only agree with post #25.
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I also think that we are pushing the boundaries of our Medieval apartheid too far. Many nobles will have been very pragmatic towards common people, certainly to those with power and money. I can hardly believe Jakob Fugger or Pieter Bladelin were unable to buy a boat, let alone kept from booking a passage.
None of our adventurers is even remotely anything like that. They don't own banking houses going back five generations. To a world of heritage, that is worth more than the gold inside.
They may be rich compared to your average knight's active purse. But don't forget all the gold that even the average knight goes through on a regular basis. And I think the "rich" part is grossly overstated. In none of our game worlds do the top 10 adventurers (sorted by gold) own more than 100 gold. In most game worlds, only the top three or so own more than 100 gold. Only on Dwilight do more than two adventurers own more than 200 gold. On all game worlds, the average gold for adventurers is somewhere between 10 and 20 gold, while the average gold for nobles is at least 100 gold, except for the East Island (where it's slightly lower) and for Priests in the Colonies.
And don't forget that a ship is a major expense. Columbus went to kings and queens in order to get financing for his voyage, as did many others. An ocean-going ship is well beyond the financial capabilities of all but the most powerful and wealthy nobles.
The rise of merchants and bankers as powerful players was towards the end of the middle ages, if not beyond it. The Fuggers were a family of nobodies in the time period that the middle ages span (up to the 15th century, with the Fuggers not appearing on the scene before the 16th century).
I do think, however, that we should look into taxation for adventurers again. I think on tax day they should be taxed by whatever region they happen to be in on that day, in addition to the realm taxes they already pay.
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So, they sign on as a deckhand and then jump ship in a convenient port. Just say (as has been said) it is for game play reasons
I do think, however, that we should look into taxation for adventurers again. I think on tax day they should be taxed by whatever region they happen to be in on that day, in addition to the realm taxes they already pay.
I can think of a million ways I'd rather see the dev team spend their time, personally. A million unfinished features. A million things that would add more fun to the game, instead of just taking 10 gold from advies every month.
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Not just taking. That gold doesn't disappear, it goes to the region lords... I forsee at least five interesting ways for nobles to exploit this. And nobles should exploit commoners.
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Not just taking. That gold doesn't disappear, it goes to the region lords... I forsee at least five interesting ways for nobles to exploit this. And nobles should exploit commoners.
And I can think of 5 ways for advies to get around it.
And I think that with the current situation (meaning - too many advies, TMP issues and the like), ways that nobles can exploit advies is not really very high on the list of things people are thinking much about. Considering there is another popular thread about lords wanting to be able to turn over all the food management to the banker, I think micromanaging their estates is not really a very popular thing right now, and your coding efforts will go for naught.
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So, they sign on as a deckhand and then jump ship in a convenient port. Just say (as has been said) it is for game play reasons
I can think of a million ways I'd rather see the dev team spend their time, personally. A million unfinished features. A million things that would add more fun to the game, instead of just taking 10 gold from advies every month.
Can you really think of any compelling game play reasons to allow advies to change realms, but not allow them to change continents. The reason I suggest the so called "fabrications" is because from previous discussions the only reason advies are restricted from emigration is that it fits with Toms perception of the pseudo-historical position advies fulfill within the pseudo-historical low fantasy setting, ie completely IG RP reasons as imagined by the worlds creator.
Also it is my understanding that sailing vessels very rarely would consent to allowing land lubbers work in an capacity on the ship. Sailing vessels can be somewhat complex and very space limited, men that don't know exactly what to do and when to do it only lower productivity and present risk. Besides they were a superstitious lot.
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http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,700.msg12802.html#msg12802 (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,700.msg12802.html#msg12802)
This has already been discussed.
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Also, we have gone far off-topic. I thank De-Legro and Tom for broadening my view, though.:)
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They may be rich compared to your average knight's active purse. But don't forget all the gold that even the average knight goes through on a regular basis. And I think the "rich" part is grossly overstated. In none of our game worlds do the top 10 adventurers (sorted by gold) own more than 100 gold. In most game worlds, only the top three or so own more than 100 gold. Only on Dwilight do more than two adventurers own more than 200 gold. On all game worlds, the average gold for adventurers is somewhere between 10 and 20 gold, while the average gold for nobles is at least 100 gold, except for the East Island (where it's slightly lower) and for Priests in the Colonies.
I do think, however, that we should look into taxation for adventurers again. I think on tax day they should be taxed by whatever region they happen to be in on that day, in addition to the realm taxes they already pay.
tom... my advy (ec) had i think 500 gold (or at least a few hundreds!) before i changed its class and sent most of that home.. (i think i sent 400 or 500 home.)
because he was getting taxed by the region.. after hitting the wealth tax or whatever limit.
i think the reason for the gold was me having double advy hunting together (and thus finding unique items to sell... let's say 50 gold each)... then again, the uniques didn't stop dropping after i paused the worse one... obviously i also sold all the common items before changing class...(gave away the last few when i can't be bothered to spend hours selling)
which reminds me that it probably should auto sell all common items when you change advy class->noble... for a fee if you can't be bothered to spend the hours.
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tom... my advy (ec) had i think 500 gold (or at least a few hundreds!) before i changed its class and sent most of that home.. (i think i sent 400 or 500 home.)
A single exception does not invalidate the rule. As of when I checked a couple hours ago, in the entire game, there was exactly one adventurer with more than 500 gold on his person. I posted what the average values are. That there are a couple adventurers (about half a dozen per game world) that have as much gold as most simple knights doesn't mean that adventurers in general are rich. On the contrary, in general they are considerably poorer than nobles in general.
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of course.. but i can only imagine those who would be interested in migrating would be the ones who regularly find uniques to sell and thus can get lots of gold to do the migrating. otherwise they might as well just pause and create a new advy.
they would be the ones who's already got 100% in both sets of equipment too. i don't know why.. but one of my advies kept finding uniques in the same few regions. 16 in total between oct 2010 to aug 2011.. the other advy not equipment maxed out found 2.
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quote author=Tom link=topic=1222.msg24077#msg24077 date=1315423623]
As of when I checked a couple hours ago, in the entire game, there was exactly one adventurer with more than 500 gold on his person. I posted what the average values are.[/quote]
Not to argue with you Tom, but did you factor in gold in the Adventurer's name in guild/temple treasuries? I don't know about other Adventurer's, but that's what I did/do to avoid paying the 1 silver "tax" per turn. It's only 'paper' gold, (i.e. guild might fold, embezelment) but may tip the scales in the Adventurers favor a little more. As an Adventurer in Giblot's Liberty Party guild, I've got about 50 gold, (at last check though... which was a while ago. Plus the whole 'Giblot losing' thing might have emptied out the treasury) but could have stocked away much more if I had been consistent at it.
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quote author=Tom link=topic=1222.msg24077#msg24077 date=1315423623]
As of when I checked a couple hours ago, in the entire game, there was exactly one adventurer with more than 500 gold on his person. I posted what the average values are.
Not to argue with you Tom, but did you factor in gold in the Adventurer's name in guild/temple treasuries? I don't know about other Adventurer's, but that's what I did/do to avoid paying the 1 silver "tax" per turn. It's only 'paper' gold, (i.e. guild might fold, embezelment) but may tip the scales in the Adventurers favor a little more. As an Adventurer in Giblot's Liberty Party guild, I've got about 50 gold, (at last check though... which was a while ago. Plus the whole 'Giblot losing' thing might have emptied out the treasury) but could have stocked away much more if I had been consistent at it.
I've never thought that 1 silver per day was so steep that I had to try and avoid it :) Guilds aren't banks so I wouldn't think the gold is counted, it is perfectly possible for a guild to owe more credit to its members then it actually has in the treasury to provide.
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Not to argue with you Tom, but did you factor in gold in the Adventurer's name in guild/temple treasuries?
No, I haven't. Neither for adventurers nor for nobles. It would've been a bit more complicated to check for that as well.
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As an advy I wouldn't dare to put all my cash in a guild, in fear of some stuckup noble running away with it
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They may be rich compared to your average knight's active purse. But don't forget all the gold that even the average knight goes through on a regular basis. And I think the "rich" part is grossly overstated. In none of our game worlds do the top 10 adventurers (sorted by gold) own more than 100 gold. In most game worlds, only the top three or so own more than 100 gold. Only on Dwilight do more than two adventurers own more than 200 gold. On all game worlds, the average gold for adventurers is somewhere between 10 and 20 gold, while the average gold for nobles is at least 100 gold, except for the East Island (where it's slightly lower) and for Priests in the Colonies.
Yay, i'm in the top 3 8)
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Out of curiosity, how many adventurers on Dwilight have more than 200 gold?
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Whenever my adventurer has over 300 gold I walk to a few guildhouses and refill the treasuries. Thats happened a few times and once when i was in jail the judge stole 400 gold from me, which is why I started depositing it of course. Tom is correct that this is the exception and not the role. Though I still believe it is absurd to not allow adventurers to immigrate. However, its Tom's game and if he doesn't want it thats the end of the story. So why is this still being discussed?
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Though I still believe it is absurd to not allow adventurers to immigrate. However, its Tom's game and if he doesn't want it thats the end of the story. So why is this still being discussed?
Perhaps because he is not an omnipotent being, and maybe his opinions could, in theory, be swayed through rational discussion?
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Perhaps, though with the fact that it has been brought up multiple times and shot down multiple times I doubt that he'll change his mind.
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You mean like the creation of a forum was shot down multiple times?