BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: Igelfeld on March 06, 2011, 05:58:13 PM
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In discussion about new player retention the problems with mentors seem to be a central problem that has been identified. This problem seems to stem from the fact that most of the players who would be good mentors would rather have a different subclass. One solution that has some merit is changing the position of mentor to an appointed position selected by the ruler and not limited to a subclass.
Essentially, this would allow anyone that the ruler recognizes as a good player to be a mentor regardless of class. having the ruler appoint the position would limit the number of mentors, so that the new players are not swarmed by everyone looking to gain a few extra mentor points, and it would make the appointed individuals responsible for new player retention.
What do you guys think about this?
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I hadn't seen anything that said that Mentoring was the problem. I think the problem is that people join, click a few buttons, don't see anything happen, and sign out.
Also, our mentoring system is character based, when it's really a player to player issue, yes?
That said, here's how I would improve the mentoring system:
Mentoring is divided into seven categories:
* Recruitment and maintenance of units
* Basic combat tactics and unit settings
* Realm hierarchy, allegiance and oath
* The military chain of command - armies, marshals, and the general
* The inalienable rights
* "Out-of-Character" - separation between each character, separation between characters and players
*Other
Players who have played for less than 1 year would have a link on their family page saying "ask a question" or something similar. On that page, they could read an FAQ--consisting of the most commonly asked questions, of course--as well as a list of answers. The same question could have multiple answers--preferably a short answer, a longer answer, and a link to the relevant wiki pages. Also, the new player would choose a category from the above list and ask their question.
I would present each player (not character) who has played for over 1 year have a section on the family options page called mentoring. They would be able to check a checkbox for each category that they are interested in answering mentoring questions for. When a new player asks a question using the above system, that question would be answerable through the mentoring page. Only questions that they want to answer (using the checkbox system) are answered.
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Another alternative would be to have a big "ask a question" button, that sends the player to the forums. This could be used by all players.
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How about something that would make mentors a useful class (their utility is debatable on other continents anyway but at least they have students there) on BT? Since only adventurers can be made directly on the continent, and no new players can start off there (I think?), this means that mentors on BT are pointless subclasses. I would figure that even if mechanically there is nothing they would teach if someone has already spent at least 14 days on another continent learning the ropes, there is still a lot of different stuff about the Invasions. But I guess that might be a bit too much work to figure out how to do this for one continent.
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I doubt that someone who just learned the ropes on one continent in 14 days would emigrate to another... I bet most who immigrate already know most, if not all, the basic mechanics.
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Quite likely, and I noted that. But that still means we have one completely pointless subclass on a continent. It's no big deal I guess, but it would be nice to make use of what we have. Then again, in general it seems like mentors aren't getting much in terms of mechanics. The last time I tried teaching, my students said nothing. They pretty much just left.
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I believe that the Mentor class should be removed, and that there should be another way to "teach" new nobles the ropes. There are simply too many bad mentors who not only do not help, but decrease players' interest.
I know *two* good mentors out of all the ones I've seen, and I've been to quite a few realms (hehe, I like realm hopping until I find one that actually engages its nobles). By good I mean they do not just OOC copy/paste stuff and they actually answer your questions and, you know.... talk to you.
Good mentors are rare, but they do exist, and I think we should use the resources and time those players provide in a better way than we are currently, but I haven't thought of any excelling ideas on how to do so.
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But then that means I'll always have one fame point I'll never attain! :(
The mentor points fame, not the book fame. I got that one already. :)
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... in general it seems like mentors aren't getting much in terms of mechanics. The last time I tried teaching, my students said nothing. They pretty much just left.
A change would be good. Being a good mentor takes time and effort, which is largely ignored. More importantly, mentors have a unique power over young players and can shape the future of a realm -- and the growth of the game.
Ruler-appointed mentors would be a step forward in securing strong people as mentors. The appointed mentors would then present a clear and congruous idea of how to play within that realm. They would be more likely to be a good surrogate between new players and leadership. For their efforts, mentors would have a real position in the realm, rather than being a thankless scribe.
Along with appointing mentors, the game mechanics allow little in the way of lesson organization. Students seem to get lost in the forums. A color for mentor messages would help. On the mentor side, a workable chart allowing the mentor to track student lessons (like a checklist) would be good.
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I doubt ruler-appointed mentors would be that much different than what we already have. You'd just have the same people applying to the ruler to be appointed.
What I think would make a big difference would be divorcing Mentorship from the class system, allowing anyone to opt to be a mentor. I would probably have at least one of my characters be a mentor, except she already has the hero subclass.
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What I think would make a big difference would be divorcing Mentorship from the class system....
Exactly, mentorship should be divorced from the class system. As rulers would choose one or more mentors, ruler-appointed mentorship must be divorced from the class system. Otherwise, ruler appointments could violate a player's inalienable right. Ruler appointment would also follow the medieval focus of the game. Should anyone of that time get to opt into such a key position?
I simply want some assurance of quality. Ruler appointment might accomplish this. However it is accomplished, allowing advanced players such as Indirik to be mentors would assure strong new players.
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While this is a pretty good idea, I'm not so keen on being unable to gain that fame point for having a certain amount of mentor points. And yes, it is important to me even if I am not currently actively seeking to attain fame points. Getting all the fame points in the game is an ultimate goal for me, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
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Why would making it /not/ a class get rid of mentor points?
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It would involve a change of how we assign mentor points, and who can be awarded them. If there is no class, and no other distinguishing feature that would make a character rightfully gain mentor points, then there is nothing stopping just about anyone from getting them. But then what is the point of those mentor points if not to reward those who put in the effort? Of course some rare students are jerks/don't care enough and give low marks for no good reason anyway.
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If the students are being honest in their exit tests, then mentors that don't do anything won't gain mentor points.
I'm not saying we get rid of Mentors, just get rid of requiring it to be a subclass. Put an option in the Actions page that lets you declare yourself a Mentor. I do think, though, that this requires some way for the game to evaluate the performance of Mentors. Get too many bad reviews, and get booted from the Mentor program for X months.
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here is a simple fact, All rulers have a vested interest in retaining new players as it increases their power.
Since people with a vested interest are likely to take care in protecting that interest, Why don't we give the appointment of realm mentors to rulers?
The problem with letting just anyone opt into being a mentor is that every one who plays this game for power would do so, not really caring if they are a good mentor but just for the mentor points.
So here is my proposal, remove mentor form the subclasses, make it a position any class can hold, and allow the ruler to appoint x number of mentors. I honestly cannot see how this could be a bad thing for the game or player retention.
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here is a simple fact, All rulers have a vested interest in retaining new players as it increases their power.
Since people with a vested interest are likely to take care in protecting that interest, Why don't we give the appointment of realm mentors to rulers?
The problem with letting just anyone opt into being a mentor is that every one who plays this game for power would do so, not really caring if they are a good mentor but just for the mentor points.
So here is my proposal, remove mentor form the subclasses, make it a position any class can hold, and allow the ruler to appoint x number of mentors. I honestly cannot see how this could be a bad thing for the game or player retention.
Not necessarily, good and active rulers have a vested interest and act on it, and how many of *those* do we have? Not many that I've seen, especially in Monarchies/Dictatorships that are old and stale. If a new player starts in one of those realms, I doubt they'll continue playing with poor mentors and pretty much no realm interaction/activity.
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Peter, I see your point, you can have the best mentor on the worst kingdom and it would not serve the player or the game.
The underlying role of mentor is to help new players make connections. Connection with the rules, the flavor and the running of the game. And, connection with the realm, its leadership and customs.
The last connections are missing in BM, and it is vital. BM is a complex game, with collaboration at its heart. Mentors must become an integral part of realm to sustain growth and foster collaboration.
Having leadership appoint mentors would be many benefits:
- stronger players (because mentors are hand-picked experts)
- stronger realms (because leadership would/could consider new player needs)
- stronger game (because more players would connect and play)
It is always easier for realms to ignore new players, and recruit skilled/active players from other realms. The game mechanics must encourage and reward mentoring.
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Not necessarily, good and active rulers have a vested interest and act on it, and how many of *those* do we have? Not many that I've seen, especially in Monarchies/Dictatorships that are old and stale. If a new player starts in one of those realms, I doubt they'll continue playing with poor mentors and pretty much no realm interaction/activity.
I see your point, but will a realm that doesn't have a good and active ruler be interesting to a new player anyway?
From my experience we do have a lot of good and active rulers, ones who drive the character and actions of their realm. I don't know about you, but I am not going to stay in a realm that doesn't have one. What I have seen is realms with inactive or bad leaders will slowly shed nobles until they can't support their regions, or a rebellion breaks out. It is the realms with the good leaders that expand and grow larger. So I would contend that there are far more good leaders out there then you are admitting to, and realms without good leaders, will dissipate through natural selection. This may take some time, but strong leaders attract nobles and bad ones drive them away. The fewer nobles a realm has the weaker their army becomes and soon they cannot protect themselves from the good leaders out there.
One of the best examples of this is Jenred he is a great leader and because of that he is becoming an emperor. We will have to see how this turns out, but i doubt any would argue that the reason it is even possible is something other than the leadership.
Simply stated we cannot change the game externally to get rid of bad leaders, that is something we just have to deal with in game. However, we can empower leaders to increase new player retention by giving them the ability to appoint good mentors. And I don't think even a bad leader would want new nobles leaving all the time, so it seems that even the inactive and boring leaders have some motivation to appoint good mentors.
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I see your point, but will a realm that doesn't have a good and active ruler be interesting to a new player anyway?
That depends on what else is happening in the realm, and quite a few other things, too. If the other leaders in the realm are competent, and the realm has A Plan, then the ruler is essentially a figurehead.
One of the best examples of this is Jenred he is a great leader and because of that he is becoming an emperor. We will have to see how this turns out, but i doubt any would argue that the reason it is even possible is something other than the leadership.
Leadership alone is not enough. To do what happened in Arcaea, you have to a lot of good players willing to work together to build something. Matt deserves a lot of credit for it. But so do all the other players in Arcaea. So, yeah, I would argue that leadership alone is not enough. You have to start with a core of good players, then add leadership on top of that.
Simply stated we cannot change the game externally to get rid of bad leaders, that is something we just have to deal with in game. However, we can empower leaders to increase new player retention by giving them the ability to appoint good mentors. And I don't think even a bad leader would want new nobles leaving all the time, so it seems that even the inactive and boring leaders have some motivation to appoint good mentors.
I wouldn't object to ruler-appointed mentors. But I would say that you also have to remove the Mentor as a sub-class. And if you're going to do ruler-appointed, I wonder if it might be prudent to also get rid of mentor goodies as well.
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I wouldn't object to ruler-appointed mentors. But I would say that you also have to remove the Mentor as a sub-class. And if you're going to do ruler-appointed, I wonder if it might be prudent to also get rid of mentor goodies as well.
If you just remove it as a sub-class you can't keep the goodies. To many people would be mentors just for the goodies. So if you were to remove the goodies and allow it to be something you can choose to do that would work. I think a lot of players would do this for the good of the game. I would.
But I still don't see the harm in allowing for the goodies to remain and changing it to a ruler appointed position(s). This would make it a kind of honor to be a mentor and if the goodies still existed then there would be a strong motivation to get that honor.
the difference is that with ruler appointed mentors, you get a certain level of competition for the position, a political aspect to it, and you can keep the goodies. If you just let anyone opt into the position you can't have the goodies and you don't get the political aspect to the position. It becomes something almost outside the RP of the realm.
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My concern with a ruler-selected office being the only one that has access to mentor goodies is that you are giving a player the ability to select who gets access to bonus gold/hours/fame. Favoritism and "clique-ism" could result in only the ruler's favorites getting a shot at this stuff.
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At the same time, Ambassadors are ruler-selected. For them though, I can get why they would be linked to the ruler. Furthermore their "rewards" are probably less cool than the mentor goodies. That is debatable though.
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My concern with a ruler-selected office being the only one that has access to mentor goodies is that you are giving a player the ability to select who gets access to bonus gold/hours/fame. Favoritism and "clique-ism" could result in only the ruler's favorites getting a shot at this stuff.
True, but the new player would have to agree that the mentor they have is worthy of the points. We can adjust the exit exam language to encourage them to only give points that are truly deserved.
And we can make it so that bad marks quickly prevent a player from mentoring.
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Sometimes you just get some inexplicable bag reviews. I'm sure several of us here have had experiences where we basically write up personalized lesson plans daily, asking the student to ask questions, only to hear nothing, and sometime later the student leaves and gives you the lowest score. Experiences like those kind of made me stop doing custom mentor lessons in Tara after a few months.
Thing is, we could use a more structured system. As it is right now, everything is entirely up to the mentor working with the student. There is nothing to see whether the student is doing anything to learn.
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Thing is, we could use a more structured system. As it is right now, everything is entirely up to the mentor working with the student. There is nothing to see whether the student is doing anything to learn.
Hear, hear! Mentors must become more than thankless scribes. That means making the position more than an afterthought. It needs to be a structured position. As you say, mentors need tools. Possibilities include:
- automatic welcome message from mentor(s)
- color for mentor messages
- workable charts allowing mentors to track progress
- a way to see if student is active
- automatic reports on gaining liege and army placement
Mentor goodies are nice and all -- but not about teaching players to be better players. A structure system in-game and this forum would go a long way toward retaining players and improving game play.
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Hear, hear! Mentors must become more than thankless scribes. That means making the position more than an afterthought. It needs to be a structured position. As you say, mentors need tools. Possibilities include:
- automatic welcome message from mentor(s)
- color for mentor messages
- workable charts allowing mentors to track progress
- a way to see if student is active
- automatic reports on gaining liege and army placement
Mentor goodies are nice and all -- but not about teaching players to be better players. A structure system in-game and this forum would go a long way toward retaining players and improving game play.
I like all of these options. For the Charts, I suggest implementing a structure where mentors can create daily quiz of a few questions for new players, like this:
Day 1:
1. Who is your ruler? (realm member dropdown list)
2. Are commoners equal to nobles? (Choose from "no", "never", and "inconceivable!")
If they miss number one, present some links for them to view on the messaging and realm information to find this information out.
Day 2:
1. Who is your liege?
2. Who is your marshal?
3. If your liege and your marshal issue contradicting orders, which should you follow?
And of course, if they don't have one of the above, then perhaps this could be set for a later date.
I suppose the question is, should this all be done by the individual mentors, or something filled out by mentors, or something that's the same for every player and baked in to the game?
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I would prefer that mentors do this for the game rather than just for their realm. All these are good ideas, but they still ultimately contribute mainly to the realm rather than getting new players interested.
If only there was a way for players to gather together and teach other players, note that I didn't say characters. :)
I think that an effective way to help new players to get over the learning curve will increase the percentage that stay.
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I have seen several games that a had a forum board specifically for new players to ask questions. Not the "helpline" one that we have now that is a generic help board, but a dedicated "Newbie Corner" kind of thing. Perhaps we could do that, including giving new players a link to that board in their IG welcome message. That would hopefully give newer players a way to ask questions about things, and maybe get a quicker response, due to the wider player-base they could access on the forums rather than their realm.
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The forum idea sounds pretty good. It'd be a nice use of this new resource. However, I think there's still room for an in-game type of mentor. For example, the wiki specifically says that things in the manual are left out for the players to figure out on their own. I know that I was one of the players who wanted to know more and wanted it fast, so I asked a lot of stuff. It would have helped a lot if there was someone I could turn to in my realm so that not only do I learn some neat secrets to this game, but my characters also gain them.
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... a dedicated "Newbie Corner" kind of thing. Perhaps we could do that, including giving new players a link to that board in their IG welcome message.
Excellent. As Artemesia said, a devoted forum section for is a good use of this new resource. It would also answer Foundations concerns about player versus character mentoring. Including the forum link in an ingame realm mentor message would offer players a solid options to getting questions answered (and solve/fix key confusions newb players have).
However, I think there's still room for an in-game type of mentor.
Indeed, the forum section must not supersede our talks on improving the mentor position. Mentors are key greeters, hand-holders and teachers within a realm.
I suppose the question is, should this all be done by the individual mentors, or something filled out by mentors, or something that's the same for every player and baked in to the game?
This is also my question.
Asking mentors to recreate the wheel to explain game functions seems a waste. Yet, there are realm specific information mentors must impart.
The structure should support mentors time/effort and player understanding. Mentor templates (creating solid information a mentor can build on), interactive quizzes and/or reports (enabling the mentor to know/support the student actions), and mentor links with visuals would be the good.
Changes must always build the connection between character and realm -- and player and game.
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I have seen several games that a had a forum board specifically for new players to ask questions. Not the "helpline" one that we have now that is a generic help board, but a dedicated "Newbie Corner" kind of thing. Perhaps we could do that, including giving new players a link to that board in their IG welcome message. That would hopefully give newer players a way to ask questions about things, and maybe get a quicker response, due to the wider player-base they could access on the forums rather than their realm.
I think we had this discussion once on irc. I remember that several advocated that the whole mentoring process should be more ooc, to give newcomers more informations and allow them to stay.
Personally, I still believe in the other way around. Mentors IC are a great idea Tom had, and having the whole tutorial done by players in a player to player way greatly gives to newcomers the feeling of battlemaster. Certainly ooc aspects are touched as well but one thing is putting an ooc note to an ic mentor message, another one is sending newcomers to the forum.
Clearly the biggest downside of my argument is that having a bad mentor is more or less equivalent to having a very bad game start. This certainly does not help increasing the number of players.
cheers,
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Having someone right in your realm, that is easily accessible in-game, who is dedicated to helping *you*, is a very good idea.
While I'm tossing out these various ideas, I'm not excluding the other ideas as well. It almost sounds like some people are getting the impression that if I state one idea, that I don't like the others. That's not the case. I think there are several things that could/should be done to improve mentorship and the new player experience. These can all be done together, some individually by themselves.
- Remove the Mentor subclass.
- Make mentoring an option selectable by any character in the realm that has been playing the game for more than 6 months. (Too long? Maybe 3 months? Anyway, more than 30 days.)
- Allow rulers to appoint official mentors for the realm.
- Create a Newbie Corner (probably with a different name...) on the forum dedicated to basic game play questions, geared specifically at new players. All new players should get an IG message to go there and ask questions.
- Mentors who receive too many bad reviews from the students should be removed from the Mentor program.
- Some way to encourage more mentor/student communications. Maybe put the Mentor/Student channel options at the top of the Messages screen, possibly highlighted in a separate colored box, with some explanatory text directing the to ask questions of their mentors? Also, put a link to the forum Newbie Corner there, too.
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- Remove the Mentor subclass.
- Make mentoring an option selectable by any character in the realm that has been playing the game for more than 6 months. (Too long? Maybe 3 months? Anyway, more than 30 days.)
- Allow rulers to appoint official mentors for the realm.
- Create a Newbie Corner (probably with a different name...) on the forum dedicated to basic game play questions, geared specifically at new players. All new players should get an IG message to go there and ask questions.
- Mentors who receive too many bad reviews from the students should be removed from the Mentor program.
- Some way to encourage more mentor/student communications. Maybe put the Mentor/Student channel options at the top of the Messages screen, possibly highlighted in a separate colored box, with some explanatory text directing the to ask questions of their mentors? Also, put a link to the forum Newbie Corner there, too.
Sweetness! You are right. It is not a complete list, but it is brilliant start.
Now, let us talk about mentor lessons. A complete mentor session now includes over six letters, even without student questions.
Would we still need the structured list of lessons? And, if so, how to support mentors in that task?
If this format is still deemed necessary, mentor lesson resources/tools would be a positive change. I see three options:
- Post resources in a mentor-only part of the forum -- which opens the forum to other private group sections. A private forum section provide a place for mentors to post/share solid information, without undermining the mentor/student experience. Such a mentor forum would also allow realms easy consistent/approved mentor lessons.
- Provide a clear mentor section on wiki. Some realms already attempted to use wiki to standardize realm mentor lessons.
- Bake standard lessons into the game as templates.
How big of change in mentoring do we want?
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Sweetness! You are right. It is not a complete list, but it is brilliant start.
Now, let us talk about mentor lessons. A complete mentor session now includes over six letters, even without student questions.
Would we still need the structured list of lessons? And, if so, how to support mentors in that task?
If this format is still deemed necessary, mentor lesson resources/tools would be a positive change. I see three options:
- Post resources in a mentor-only part of the forum -- which opens the forum to other private group sections. A private forum section provide a place for mentors to post/share solid information, without undermining the mentor/student experience. Such a mentor forum would also allow realms easy consistent/approved mentor lessons.
- Provide a clear mentor section on wiki. Some realms already attempted to use wiki to standardize realm mentor lessons.
- Bake standard lessons into the game as templates.
How big of change in mentoring do we want?
There are already hidden forums--for example, look below my name on the left. So the functionality is already available.
I think a mentors forum would be nice, and an "ask a question" section where it's understood that people can ask a "stupid" question and not get made fun of--make sure it's policed harshly for sarcastic replies.
There are already many excellent mentor areas on the wiki. =Iit would be nice to gather all of them, update them (some may not have up to date tax/estate information), and store them in either or both of the forums suggested.
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I'm not seeing anything below your name on the left. ???
If we are going to set up a special place for mentor-student interaction, what would we do about who gets to post there and view?
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The forum should not take the place of the wiki. The forum is for discussions. The wiki is for storing information. If for no other reason than information on the forums cannot easily be changed. So the best thing to do with community created mentor lessons is create/store them on the wiki, and link them from the forums.
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Also, I don't think we would be able to create any kind of forum or board where only mentors could post. That would require tom to continually be changing forum permissions. Also, it would restrict non-mentors from contributing. And new students from asking questions. :)
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@Artemesia: then look at Indirik, it should say "Dev Team" below his name. I see "Testers" below mine.
@Indirik: Then I propose that we gather links to all wiki mentor sources in one forum, and work to update/merge/improve those documents on the wiki.
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The forum is for discussions. The wiki is for storing information.
You are right. Can we do a both?
As egamma said, the links on wiki need gathered and updated. It is a huge thankless task. Let's use the forum for discussion and wiki for information.
As part of our discussions, rulers shall elect official mentors. From this group, form a Mentor Commission to collaborate/write mentor lessons based on the set topics. The commission would be temporary organization and would use a private forum section for discussions and collaboration. The result would posted on wiki.
This proposal allows strong players to update/write mentor lessons, rewards these players by being on a commission, encourages more forum use, keeps wiki as information, and provides all new players with updated quality information.
Mentors would refer students to wiki for general information, the forum for discussions, and support players with realm/individual help. Game knowledge would come from a balanced combination of fellow players (mentors), wiki, and the forum.
In turn, the new wiki page would cite the contributing mentors and encourage new players to become a student to learn more. When updates are needed a new team of mentors from the 'official realm' list can be called upon to work in the forum.
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Results of quick search, we can use this to start the forum/wiki process:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Mossy_Family/Abraham/Mentor_Lessons (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Mossy_Family/Abraham/Mentor_Lessons)
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Mentor_Uma_Zeppos:_The_experiance_shared (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Mentor_Uma_Zeppos:_The_experiance_shared)
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Lasanar/Mentor_Lessons (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Lasanar/Mentor_Lessons)
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Arylon_Family/Mentor_Handbook (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Arylon_Family/Mentor_Handbook)
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Anthaigos_Family/Mentor_Lessons/Have_Fun (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Anthaigos_Family/Mentor_Lessons/Have_Fun)
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Ordenstaat/Mentor (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Ordenstaat/Mentor)
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Aquilegia/Dynamic_Mentor (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Aquilegia/Dynamic_Mentor)
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Anthaigos_Family/Mentor_Lessons (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Anthaigos_Family/Mentor_Lessons)
Some have more information than others.
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Awesome work, Egamma, and thus we shall begin the update/redesign of tutorials and other stuff on the wiki. Some of it is hopelessly out of date, but there are LOTs of great articles written on the wiki as well.
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Back when I first came back to the game I had a job where I sat at a computer for endless hours of time, made me a damn good mentor and gave me lots of time to work on materials. Here is the general link to everything I did:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Igelfeld_Family/Von_Igelfeld_family_Memoirs
One thing unique to the way I taught my students was the inclusion of social reputation, I think this is perhaps the most important aspect of teaching new players and is not necessarily addressed in the way we currently do things, this is basically what I said:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Igelfeld_Family/Von_Igelfeld_family_Memoirs/The_Wisdom_of_Moritz/Reputation
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Igelfeld_Family/Von_Igelfeld_family_Memoirs/The_Wisdom_of_Moritz/Socialization_and_Etiquette
This was fun to write and a very amoral look at how battlemaster works. Moritz is really the only noble I have who lived this out fully, and he is King so I guess it works.
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I like these very much. :) It was fun to play with your chars, though we only had limited interaction. ;)
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I like these very much. :) It was fun to play with your chars, though we only had limited interaction. ;)
Thanks, I do try and sometimes I have more time on my hands than others, and if you want to get more interaction with my characters I will here shamelessly plug Asylon. As King I do a lot of RPing and letter writing as it is a very small realm and I want to keep it interesting, we have a solid player base in the realm as well of good active players.
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Yep, Gladia Olivaw was actually in Asylon the same time as you. Though I chose to leave and you stayed. ;)
But, good job with the realm, hope things go well with it. :D
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Are we in agreement to brainstorm changes needed to the mentor aspect of the game? Once all of the ideas are gathered, perhaps a master plan should be created.
Please look at Indirik's summary list and add/change anything you wish.
Having someone right in your realm, that is easily accessible in-game, who is dedicated to helping *you*, is a very good idea.
- Remove the Mentor subclass.
- Make mentoring an option selectable by any character in the realm that has been playing the game for more than 6 months. (Too long? Maybe 3 months? Anyway, more than 30 days.)
- Allow rulers to appoint official mentors for the realm.
- Create a Newbie Corner (probably with a different name...) on the forum dedicated to basic game play questions, geared specifically at new players. All new players should get an IG message to go there and ask questions.
- Mentors who receive too many bad reviews from the students should be removed from the Mentor program.
- Some way to encourage more mentor/student communications. Maybe put the Mentor/Student channel options at the top of the Messages screen, possibly highlighted in a separate colored box, with some explanatory text directing the to ask questions of their mentors? Also, put a link to the forum Newbie Corner there, too.
I agree with Indirik's list and am adding:
- updating wiki using a team of realm-appointed mentors (since the group is keen on this idea :))
- use a private forum for the mentor group to collaborate final product.
- ingame sortable chart to track student progress and timing of lessons.
If wiki is used, the format should follow the topics of the mentor lessons so that mentors can 'assign' wiki reading sections. This would also be a sweet way to set up the threads in the forum. I would love to get more people using the forums. What better way than encouraging our mentors and students ?
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I'd like to support keeping mentor points and the relevant rewards.
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I doubt that someone who just learned the ropes on one continent in 14 days would emigrate to another... I bet most who immigrate already know most, if not all, the basic mechanics.
I don't agree, as this assumes that most people just stumble onto the game.
I left AT and EC for BT as soon as I could. 14 days for AT, and a bit longer for EC as finding the gold was a bit harder. Why? Because the guy that invited me to the game played there, and recommended that I join him.
Then, all of the people I've invited to the game did the same. Sometimes just 1 character, and the third always necessarily stayed behind, but they too migrated to BT after 14 days.
I think invitations play a huge role in recruitment, and that these players are much more likely to stick around than everyone else. In fact, I think it's a question that should be asked when one joins the game, for statistical reasons.
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I don't agree, as this assumes that most people just stumble onto the game.
I left AT and EC for BT as soon as I could. 14 days for AT, and a bit longer for EC as finding the gold was a bit harder. Why? Because the guy that invited me to the game played there, and recommended that I join him.
Then, all of the people I've invited to the game did the same. Sometimes just 1 character, and the third always necessarily stayed behind, but they too migrated to BT after 14 days.
I think invitations play a huge role in recruitment, and that these players are much more likely to stick around than everyone else. In fact, I think it's a question that should be asked when one joins the game, for statistical reasons.
That's only for BT, where you can only immigrate to. I was referring to "real" immigration, where you immigrate because you feel that your realm is not fun or you want to experience other realms. ;)
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Chenier, are you suggesting that the student option should be open to immigrants?
Or, that the option should be open X days, regardless of realm movements?
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I can't speak for Chenier, but I say heck yeah for having mentoring options open for immigrations as well. BT mentors need some love too!
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- updating wiki using a team of realm-appointed mentors (since the group is keen on this idea :))
- use a private forum for the mentor group to collaborate final product.
Anyone can update the wiki. You think something needs fixed/changed/updated? Go for it! If you need some kind of special help, post in the wiki section of this forum. I don't think you will get, or need, any kind of specific support because you're an IG-appointed Mentor. The wiki is not intended to be that way, nor should it be that way. You don't need some official blessing from the game to go ahead with your project.
In the same vein, I can almost guarantee that you won't get any kind of private forum for in-game appointed mentors to collaborate. But again, you shouldn't need it. Just start a thread on mentor collaboration, and go for it.
Trying to exclude people from the community project is counter-productive. This is a community-driven game. Why should we exclude community members from helping? You would probably get some help from people in the community that can't be, or don't want to be, mentors for whatever reason. I don't see any reason to prevent the players from contributing just because their characters can't participate in the IG mentor program. Also, you may or may not get support from the IG-appointed mentors. There's a good chance that some of the people that get appointed won't care about the wiki, or know anything about contributing to it.
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I've always thought there were three jobs I wanted to see done (though this doesn't need to be done by Mentors per se):
1. Help new players understand the game OOC.
2. Help new players learn how IC interactions work.
3. Help new characters to the realm understand how the realm works.
Mentors currently are supposed to do 1 and 2, and I think several of the changes proposed here (updating the wikis, thank god, as well as making it selectable by any character) will help a lot with them.
I think the "ruler/realm appointed mentors" bit should probably be limited to point 3, though. Hell, you could make Chief Mentor a council position charged with maintaining and promoting realm culture, which by necessity includes inducting new characters into the realm's customs and practices. And response from that would help a great deal with the rankings of realms suggested in a variety of places. Chief Mentor doesn't contact you or respond to your questions about the realm? That's a bad, bad thing.
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I've always thought there were three jobs I wanted to see done (though this doesn't need to be done by Mentors per se):
1. Help new players understand the game OOC.
2. Help new players learn how IC interactions work.
3. Help new characters to the realm understand how the realm works.
Mentors currently are supposed to do 1 and 2, and I think several of the changes proposed here (updating the wikis, thank god, as well as making it selectable by any character) will help a lot with them.
I think the "ruler/realm appointed mentors" bit should probably be limited to point 3, though. Hell, you could make Chief Mentor a council position charged with maintaining and promoting realm culture, which by necessity includes inducting new characters into the realm's customs and practices. And response from that would help a great deal with the rankings of realms suggested in a variety of places. Chief Mentor doesn't contact you or respond to your questions about the realm? That's a bad, bad thing.
I think that 1 and 2 should be done for all new players, and 3 should be delegated to Mentors, who have specific understandings of their own realm. After all, there are quite a few ground rules and customs that I think all realms and players abide by... or are supposed to abide by. ;)
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So number 3 on that list would apply to all new characters, regardless of how long the player's been around? I think that would be a good idea, since the mentor isn't just an OOC job to teach new players. While veteran players might know exactly what to do, there are always things that aren't known. Furthermore, the character certainly shouldn't know everything. But to avoid boredom on the player's part, it'll be up to the mentor to make sure the IC interactions are still interesting. Well, that's one of the things that'll separate great mentors from good mentors and so on.
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Well, as someone who played a mentor for a really long time with Gregor (I think I had 10+ students, most/half of whom are still around years later) I have to say that the new students seem only interested in people with titles (Evidence Serko who is now also a mentor, but out of the four students in Astrum not a single one has replied to his letters).
I originally wrote Gregor's "book" as a supplement to what I was already writing to students. But it does need to be interactive, and more importantly it needs to give new players a sense of what's going on politically, and militarily. Giving a brief overview of history helps new people out a ton, and makes them feel like they can join in.
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So far only one replied to my letter :( Well I've been sending lessons to 2 students in Astrum. Hope it helps them. I think the problem is that mentors are not there when new players just joined. If they have 0 days after resister, they should automatically become students and get a letter for tutorial.
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I think this got lost somewhere along the way, but an automatic message sent from the mentors to the students would be a good way to establish contact right away.
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To keep us all on-track ... here is a summary:
- Remove the Mentor subclass.
- Make mentoring an option selectable by any character in the realm that has been playing the game for more than 6 months. (Too long? Maybe 3 months? Anyway, more than 30 days.)
- Allow rulers to appoint official mentor(s) -- or Chief Mentor -- for the realm.
- Create a Newbie Corner (probably with a different name...) on the forum dedicated to basic game play questions, geared specifically at new players. All new players should get an IG message to go there and ask questions.
- Mentors who receive too many bad reviews from the students should be removed from the Mentor program.
- Some way to encourage more mentor/student communications. Maybe put the Mentor/Student channel options at the top of the Messages screen, possibly highlighted in a separate colored box, with some explanatory text directing the to ask questions of their mentors? Also, put a link to the forum Newbie Corner there, too.
- Update wiki (in a community-based and inclusive manner) to include non-realm specific mentor/student page.
- Ingame sortable chart to track student progress and timing of lessons.
- Maintain mentor points and relevant rewards.
- Open mentor option to immigrants -- or perhaps any new character (without family in realm) as Bedwyr suggests that a mentor's main task is realm customs and practices.
- Make an automatic IG mentor message to guide new players to resources (forum, wiki, student subclass).
I have to say that the new students seem only interested in people with titles.
This is so true, and another good reason why rulers should appoint -- and the realm leadership team should interact -- with mentors. It sends a clear message to new players to listen ... because mentors are important and BM is a team game.
I originally wrote Gregor's "book" as a supplement to what I was already writing to students. But it does need to be interactive, and more importantly it needs to give new players a sense of what's going on politically, and militarily. Giving a brief overview of history helps new people out a ton, and makes them feel like they can join in.
Loren's idea of a 'book' to supplement what mentors focus on in-game is what I was attempting to convey earlier with my request for a wiki project. Changes in all three areas would be brilliant: more interactive/timely/realm specific in-game mentoring, clearer non-realm wiki information, and responsive/supportive forum 'corner' for newbs.
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So, I know that this has already been mentioned, but one of my characters is currently an ambassador but wants to become a Mentor to try and help out his realm in retaining new nobles and also because I think I'd make a great mentor and it fits the character. However, he doesn't really want to lose his ambassador status if he doesn't have to.
Since this is a feature request and it has a lot of support, (which I support as well), how likely do you think that this may be implemented in the short term, so as to just wait until the changes, or should I go ahead and become mentor because this won't happen for a long time anyway? (On a stable island)
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Let me put it this way: Don't hold your breath.
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Hmm... I didn't mean to be so abrupt and kill the thread. I think these are all great ideas, and they should really help the mentor program.
But we have to face the reality of the fact that there is very limited programming support available. There are only 3 active coders for this stuff: Anaris (who has been doing most of the new features, bug fixes, etc. for the past... year?), Tom (who's really about 1/2 active and working on more major underlying codebase changes), and Foundation (who is also 1/2 active, but has done cool stuff like training matches and flagged messages). Even if Tom agrees with a class change to Mentors, I wouldn't expect it to happen in the next 3 or 4 months. Maybe not even the next 6 months, unless some specific coder decides to take it on as a pet project.
And having said all that, I don't see any reason why this can't continue as a community project. Start a new forum thread on the Helpline board discussing which direction the mentor documentation will take. Start a new Mentor documentation project on the wiki. (Bedwyr and I are both wiki admins, and can give any required wiki support, if needed. Though I don't think any is required.) And get to work on doing the community portion of the project. Get active and get this thing going. Show community support and dedication, and you may attract coder notice to do some of the IG changes. Maybe we won't get Mentors changed from a subclass to an opt-in checkbox for all characters, or an official ruler appointed Royal Mentor, but maybe some of the other minor code-related stuff can be done, like auto links to a forum newbie corner, moving mentor/student links on the messages page, etc.
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Mentoring
Let's get to work!
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Some time ago I attempted to modify the Battlemaster Basics page that, even if very nice, was lacking clarity in my opinion.
While at first I was lost to look for the draft the good Indirik has one solution for everything and put the link in the discussion page. This is it:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/BattleMaster_Basics/draft
The whole idea was more to give a feeling to newcomers how the game looks like when you are playing it since a while, rather than just giving basic informations such as "that button does that". If they understand how the game looks like for those who play since a while or are in a position of power, they can may be more interested in tolerating the "few" option knights have at their disposal, while teaching them what is going on on larger scales.
Maybe I'll return to work on it again in the future.
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Some time ago I attempted to modify the Battlemaster Basics page that, even if very nice, was lacking clarity in my opinion.
While at first I was lost to look for the draft the good Indirik has one solution for everything and put the link in the discussion page. This is it:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/BattleMaster_Basics/draft
The whole idea was more to give a feeling to newcomers how the game looks like when you are playing it since a while, rather than just giving basic informations such as "that button does that". If they understand how the game looks like for those who play since a while or are in a position of power, they can may be more interested in tolerating the "few" option knights have at their disposal, while teaching them what is going on on larger scales.
Maybe I'll return to work on it again in the future.
That looks good, but we need some of that information put into the signup process, and the rest in the new player messages.
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That looks good, but we need some of that information put into the signup process, and the rest in the new player messages.
Well if that page is somehow integrated with the student/mentor portal on the wiki, I'm sure a link to it can be added somewhere by the devs so that newcomers would see it and go there.
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Just coming in out of nowhere, talking about mentoring on the discord.
I say, take mentoring out of a character class and give it to the PLAYER. You give this role to players who are active, enjoy the game and have time and opportunity to post.
Give mentors the "task" of engaging new players and checking up on them at regular intervals, say, as close as possible to day 1, week1, month 1, etc. The responsibilities could rotate or be shared among the mentors. Give them their own mechanic to see which players are due for their catch up, so mentors can drop in, check the list, write a mail, ect. They can make that engagement general, "how are you liking things, are you getting enough things to do?" or very specific, "how did you go with that task I gave you last time? now I want you to x"... Players could opt out of the mentoring system like office refusal, "I don't want to be bothered by mentors"
Additionally, the council - and the ruler - who are responsible for fun - should be able to see certain metrics,
When is the last time we had a roleplay? a tournament? held a festival, had a string of roleplays that lasted x number of days? Visibility drives these things.
make it visible for every player so they can share the responsibility of driving interaction - or opting out of it if they don't want that responsibility (which is fine - not everyone has time and opportunity).
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All good ideas, but sadly the Mentoring class was removed from the game quite some time ago.
I too would like to see the Mentoring Option re-added to the game. Not as a class, but like Gordyy says, as a player option.
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I think it is a bit unnecessary, and creates an obligation that will fizzle out for players.
What we need is to encourage interaction and roleplaying. That is what keeps players interested and staying in the game. We have OOC messages for "How do I recruit troops" and stuff like that, and I have never seen a question like that ignored. Players generally want to help each other on an OOC level.
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Like any position, why not let the players decide what their obligation would be, and disown it if it becomes a burden? We have players right now complaining of failed interactions and poor communication between knights and elected positions. Having a mentor role wouldn't be onerous if split between 2-3 people. If they want a reward, give them a discord tag.