BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Vellos on March 07, 2011, 08:48:37 PM
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I just thought I'd open a thread for the elephant in the room.
How about we redirect all discussions about byzantine Astroist feuds, as well as complaints against Astroism in general, to this thread?
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Woohoo! So what's with Mathurin coming back after being paused all this time?
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Please direct all complaints to consumer affairs,
Thank you.
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How about praise for Sanguis Astroism? Do I have to open a new thread for that? :P
I'll just say that Sanguis Astroism is the only religion in BattleMaster that has ever really piqued my interest. I don't think any other one has managed to come up with as compelling a religion. And it really has nothing to do with the depth of theology, either. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite. The fact that it is not all written down and set in stone probably has a lot to do with it. There's a feeling that people can contribute and make their mark on things. Rather than have everything carved in stone and handed down from on high, individual players can generally feel like they can help shape the evolution of the theology. So, there's no creation mythos? Feel free to write it, and then we can all get together and debate it. Is there an afterlife among the Stars? Who know. Why don't you write your own interpretation of the Prophet's words and present it to the members for debate. I think that provides for a much better player atmosphere than those religions where one person sits down and writes everything and then tells you what you should believe.
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How about praise for Sanguis Astroism? Do I have to open a new thread for that? :P
I'll just say that Sanguis Astroism is the only religion in BattleMaster that has ever really piqued my interest. I don't think any other one has managed to come up with as compelling a religion. And it really has nothing to do with the depth of theology, either. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite. The fact that it is not all written down and set in stone probably has a lot to do with it. There's a feeling that people can contribute and make their mark on things. Rather than have everything carved in stone and handed down from on high, individual players can generally feel like they can help shape the evolution of the theology. So, there's no creation mythos? Feel free to write it, and then we can all get together and debate it. Is there an afterlife among the Stars? Who know. Why don't you write your own interpretation of the Prophet's words and present it to the members for debate. I think that provides for a much better player atmosphere than those religions where one person sits down and writes everything and then tells you what you should believe.
Since this relates more to the religion thread than SA itself, tell me... If they can discuss about creation mythos and the afterlife, *do they*?
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It has briefly been touched on once or twice. No one has really delved into the issue much. My character personally believes that there really was never a time before the Stars existed. They we're always there in the sky, and they always will be in the sky. There never was a "before".
And again touching on the generic religion side of things, does it really matter? We're talking about a game here, not theological dissertations. Does it matter if your in game religion is something that can be studied by cultural anthropologists? First and foremost, it has to be fun for the players. And from what I can see, SA is amazingly successful at that. Even if we don't have a legend that explains how the world was created. (That none cares about, and probably doesn't even know exists anyway.)
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Agreed, lay a framework and then allow the player to build from it.
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Lore is a good read, and can be interesting. However no amount of Lore will make a religion appealing to players on its own. It certainly can be a good tool for making a religion interesting, and great recruitment tool, but unless you've got dedicated players, lively discussion, a way for everyone to feel like they contribute and a long term goal(s), the religion is likely to fail. A successful religion can exist without deep Lore quite easily, and the same goes for realms really.
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Agreed, lay a framework and then allow the player to build from it.
But they won't.
And religions remain fuzzy concepts without even fundamental mythos.
And then we wonder why nobody takes religions seriously?
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Aye, no one takes religion seriously, thats why there is the current tensions between religions that is shaping Dwilight, nations rise and fall according to the whims of the stars and elements of the earth. Perhaps it is you that do not take the religions of Dwilight seriously... I see religion as a serious way to shape the world,whether it be spiritual or the mechanisms of man and their devious ways. Power over man or the power of god.
I have added to Sanguis Astroism in my own way by bringing in a physical aspect to the stars, its not popular and only a few people have talked about it or indulged in roleplay about it, but I invented the 'Bloodmoon' fruit. Which can be read up on the wiki if anyone is interested. The main core of Astroism is stable and static, but there is lots of small things that can be added around its central idea. I am not asking for Bloodmoon to be added to the church, but the idea does infect and change thinking. I noticed that many religions are mostly about ephemeral things. I decided that perhaps the physical world needed something that could bring about the spirit world, just like peyote or other fauna drugs out there in the real world. Anyways, just one example.
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I don't know too much about SA, but I'll say this. It's the first religion I've seen to seriously mobilise such a huge political force. It's so exciting! I play a southern noble in Dwilight and the thought of a huge SA empire in the north is very freaky. I love it. Adds a lot of flavour to BM.
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Agreed, lay a framework and then allow the player to build from it.
What ho everyone!
This, from Glaumring, is exactly what I tried to do with SA. Jesse laid the foundations for the religion and named the three stars, then left it to me to shape as I chose. But I didn't want to be the one to shape it, or at least not on my own. I didn't want to spend a month or two writing a religion, then present it wrapped up in pretty paper as a fait accompli. Besides, Dwilight is young, and the colonists are still fresh to the land. They shouldn't have an age-old religion. SA is supposed to be being worked out, it's a new religion in character as well as out of character.
But perhaps I should start putting down some more building blocks, and announcing a view on such things as an origin myth, life after death and so on. I'd be interested in hearing opinions on that from people.
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But they won't.
They have in SA. We've had several people make rather large contributions to the theology of SA.
And religions remain fuzzy concepts without even fundamental mythos.
What's wrong with a little bit of fuzz? Trying to nail down everything, and carve it in stone is, I feel, one of the biggest mistakes that people make in religion in BattleMaster. If you define /everything/, and write everything about the faith, all their beliefs, their mythos, their history, etc., then what's left for me to contribute to it? Everything that defines the entire faith is handed to me, and I'm told exactly what my character believes.
From an RL religious perspective, that makes sense. But from a game-player perspective, it's hard to get involved and enthusiastic about something that is entirely the product of someone else's imagination. Why do you think all those well-defined, highly detailed religions are flops?
And then we wonder why nobody takes religions seriously?
Nobody takes SA seriously? Meh... if you want to think so, then that's fine. The coalition of realms that have signed anti-SA treaties disagrees with you.
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Aye, no one takes religion seriously, thats why there is the current tensions between religions that is shaping Dwilight, nations rise and fall according to the whims of the stars and elements of the earth. Perhaps it is you that do not take the religions of Dwilight seriously... I see religion as a serious way to shape the world,whether it be spiritual or the mechanisms of man and their devious ways. Power over man or the power of god.
I have added to Sanguis Astroism in my own way by bringing in a physical aspect to the stars, its not popular and only a few people have talked about it or indulged in roleplay about it, but I invented the 'Bloodmoon' fruit. Which can be read up on the wiki if anyone is interested. The main core of Astroism is stable and static, but there is lots of small things that can be added around its central idea. I am not asking for Bloodmoon to be added to the church, but the idea does infect and change thinking. I noticed that many religions are mostly about ephemeral things. I decided that perhaps the physical world needed something that could bring about the spirit world, just like peyote or other fauna drugs out there in the real world. Anyways, just one example.
I derailed the topic, so forgive me for this. I wasn't talking about SA specifically. And no, I don't consider SA as a religion is taken seriously. As an organization, yes, but the religion part of it? Not really.
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Why do you think all those well-defined, highly detailed religions are flops?
Like which ones?
Not disagreeing here, just curious.
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I don't consider SA as a religion is taken seriously.
I'm pretty sure it has been taken seriously by some people.
Take a look at this commentary (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Sanguis_Astroism/Prophecies#Commentary_on.2C_and_Interpretation_of.2C_The_Second_Prophecy) on the Second Prophecy by the character Bengt Algotsson.
I don't know the player (actually I don't even know if he's still playing), and I didn't prompt him, or give him OOC clues or anything like that. He just took the time to read through a lot of the sermons and writings I'd posted to the wiki and he came up with a pretty fine interpretation. Surely he wouldn't have taken the time and trouble to do that if he hadn't taken the religion at least a little bit seriously?
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I'm pretty sure it has been taken seriously by some people.
Take a look at this commentary (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Sanguis_Astroism/Prophecies#Commentary_on.2C_and_Interpretation_of.2C_The_Second_Prophecy) on the Second Prophecy by the character Bengt Algotsson.
I don't know the player (actually I don't even know if he's still playing), and I didn't prompt him, or give him OOC clues or anything like that. He just took the time to read through a lot of the sermons and writings I'd posted to the wiki and he came up with a pretty fine interpretation. Surely he wouldn't have taken the time and trouble to do that if he hadn't taken the religion at least a little bit seriously?
I generalize too much. I didn't mean "not a single person does", I meant generally speaking.
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Interpretations on the prophet's words have been many. What isn't on the wiki, were in-game. But since I became a heretic in 2009 or something, I haven't been too up-to-date with what is going on there. I put in my wiki stuff because I felt like doing it. It sounded fun. Ironically it was also the fuel Anabellium used to get me out. Apparently people were annoyed at me or something. ;D
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Since this relates more to the religion thread than SA itself, tell me... If they can discuss about creation mythos and the afterlife, *do they*?
There was, actually, a RP centered around afterlife mythos just a few days ago. So yes, if infrequently.
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I generalize too much. I didn't mean "not a single person does", I meant generally speaking.
I think the perception outside SA is such that it is viewed as a political rather than a religious entity however this is certainly not true within SA itself.
In fact only a few months ago there was a very heated debate regarding the role of the Prophet, the authority of scripture and the true meaning of "harmony", "balance" and "enlightenment". Plus the priests are currently formulating a creed that should be ready soon. Of course this is very much intertwined with politics (just as in RL medieval times different religious views are associated with different political factions) and I'm not going to pretend its anywhere as near as complex as a RL religion.
However overall SA has been the most "religious" religion I've seen on Battlemaster; certainly its true that many people do take it seriously as a religion.
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I think the perception outside SA is such that it is viewed as a political rather than a religious entity however this is certainly not true within SA itself.
You've touched on one of the biggest problems across this game and indeed across society. What an entity appears to be from the outside and what that entity is to those that take part can be too very different things. Part of the advantage of having these OOC areas is that the players may get more information then their characters are privy to and hopefully resolve some of the player misunderstandings that can exist. Course our poor characters are still left with their misunderstandings, but hey a character without issues is kind of boring.
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and the true meaning of "harmony", "balance" and "enlightenment".
Don't forget the argument about whether the stars stand in a line or in a triangle. Who needs an afterlife debate?
The important thing is there is debate. It doesn't have to be about afterlife and creation myths. You can be original about religions.
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Or maybe one can wonder whether they are stars at all. Maybe they are buning planets... ::)
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Maybe they are just giant rubies? 8)
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A trio of geosynchronous satellites.
(Pern, anyone? :P)
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Personally Glaumring is very interested in the scientific nature of the Bloodstars, but in a medieval way. He looks at the stars and has no concept of the vast 3 dimensional space if they are vast at all or even 3 dimensional, for all he knows they could be 3 campfires or lanterns, having no real concept of what a star is, he believes that they are a only a few miles away and it would be possible to construct a balloon or stairway to reach the stars. He also has no concept of their size. For Glaumring the sky is merely a fabric with stones rested upon its surface.
I think many people look at the religious/scientific aspect from their own perspective and they argue and fight against it because they themselves in reality see the truth. Yet very few take into account how a true medieval person would view this religious idea. I know people pounce on the 'heretic' or 'Inquisition' side of SA with vigour, but very few people actually bring much more to the table beyond their desire to use SA as a platform to control people or nations. Come to think of it since being in SA and the prophet sleeping most of the time, people spend more time arguing and charging people with heresy than they do actually bringing new teachings or ideas to the church. I myself being a victim of that mentality to to a degree.
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Then its pretty accurate. Look at most large religions in real life. Once they obtained the size and power to exert influence, the prevalence of new ideas quickly gave way to ensuring the status quo and shoring up the secular power of the faith. There is no inherent reason a religion in the game should be receptive to new ideas.
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No, but this is still a game, and games were meant so that we could explore fantasies and alternate paths that do not exist in the real world.
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No, but this is still a game, and games were meant so that we could explore fantasies and alternate paths that do not exist in the real world.
Common faithful should not question the clergy. Especially not in a SMA continent. Religions which encourage this should be warned.
Religions should be among the most controlled mechanics in the game, imo. There's something seriously wrong that we can for example create a religion to "worship" a god of Trade, without any code of morals/conduct/practise, but that we can't use the "duel" mechanic to simulate a joust.
Religions should reflect realistic religions, and not be abused and used as something more akin to modern frat houses. People are free to create guilds for such groups.
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Come to think of it since being in SA and the prophet sleeping most of the time, people spend more time arguing and charging people with heresy than they do actually bringing new teachings or ideas to the church. I myself being a victim of that mentality to to a degree.
Although as others have said this is very much to do with the nature of religion itself.
Most religions, both past and present, require their teachings to come from the divine and for Constantine and many others in SA the only way we can verifiably say that a teaching has come from the Stars is if it comes through or is approved by the Holy Prophet himself.
It may not be nice for those with new ideas that we keep pouncing on new things and calling them heresy but it makes sense from an SMA POV.
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Most religions, both past and present, require their teachings to come from the divine and for Constantine and many others in SA the only way we can verifiably say that a teaching has come from the Stars is if it comes through or is approved by the Holy Prophet himself.
It may not be nice for those with new ideas that we keep pouncing on new things and calling them heresy but it makes sense from an SMA POV.
My character, Brance Indirik, having been present at the founding of the religion, vehemently disputes this assertion. He has argued constantly against the Holy Prophet's infallibility for IG years.
As a player, my biggest disappointment with SA has been with the strong Catholic influence in Sanguis Astroism. There was a trend within SA at some to for all the priests and elders to call other people "son" or "daughter", and to refer to priests as "father". We had positions named "cardinal" and "bishop". And once someone started doing it, others quickly fell in line and started doing it, too. I am fairly certain that the infallibility trend started along the same lines as Papal Infallibility.
I found it extremely irritating. In fact, one of my biggest personal goals during the time I was regent was to revamp the rank structure to get rid of stuff like that.
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My character, Brance Indirik, having been present at the founding of the religion, vehemently disputes this assertion. He has argued constantly against the Holy Prophet's infallibility for IG years.
As a player, my biggest disappointment with SA has been with the strong Catholic influence in Sanguis Astroism. There was a trend within SA at some to for all the priests and elders to call other people "son" or "daughter", and to refer to priests as "father". We had positions named "cardinal" and "bishop". And once someone started doing it, others quickly fell in line and started doing it, too. I am fairly certain that the infallibility trend started along the same lines as Papal Infallibility.
I found it extremely irritating. In fact, one of my biggest personal goals during the time I was regent was to revamp the rank structure to get rid of stuff like that.
Indeed, I remember the old infallibility debate with Brance and Allison; finished inconclusively but Constantine is still a firm believer.
Although I agree there has been some Catholic/SA crossovers in places I'm don't think infallibility is one of them. Essentially the Pope's infallibility in Catholicism is very much based on whether the doctrine declared was already accepted (he can't make new stuff up only reaffirm old stuff that is not yet dogma) and he can use his infallibility only when teaching "ex cathedra".
The Prophetic infallibility held by some in SA (including Constantine) is much more powerful; essentially comparable to the status of the OT Prophets in Christianity and Judaism and the Prophet Mohammed in Islam; a "words coming directly from the divine" kind of thing that the Papacy never enjoyed.
Of course I can't speak for the other players but I can say for certain that Constantine's views on Infallibility weren't drawn on any perceived relations with Catholicism but rather from his understanding of the nature of Prophet-hood as well as his personal encounters with Mathurin.
In any case I think Mathurin has done a great job of ensuring that there isn't a schism on the matter :)
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In any case I think Mathurin has done a great job of ensuring that there isn't a schism on the matter :)
Really? I can't agree with that one. He's avoided the entire topic. The only time I ever heard him address it was when he said something like: "I don't know if I'm infallible." When the elders of the church are threatening excommunication toward anyone who denies the Prophet's infallibility, you'd think the Prophet would speak up.
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Really? I can't agree with that one. He's avoided the entire topic. The only time I ever heard him address it was when he said something like: "I don't know if I'm infallible." When the elders of the church are threatening excommunication toward anyone who denies the Prophet's infallibility, you'd think the Prophet would speak up.
I think its this avoidance that actually stops the schism. We Elders weren't able to excommunicate Allison for the simple reason that there was no concrete Church document contradicting her words (the Magestratum refused to condemn her for this very reason); thats why we helped form the Creed so that in the future there could be a definitive document. As it stands there is a sort of stalemate regarding the infallibility issue; a majority of Elders support it and are aware that some prominent nobles do not but we are restricted as to what actions we can take without a decree from Mathurin.
IMO clarity is a double edged sword- on one hand it would stop this kind of limbo with regards to infallibility that we currently have but on the other hand it would allow one side form being able to excommunicate the other. Of course Constantine wishes the Prophet would just declare infallibility but as a player I think the silence is what prevents a schism.
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No, but this is still a game, and games were meant so that we could explore fantasies and alternate paths that do not exist in the real world.
Some games, others are a much simpler form of entertainment. That said ALL games have structures and restrictions, that are either design choices or limitations of the technology. BM is low fantasy for example so my characters isn't a rocking inter dimensional mage. I'm not saying that religions can't be formed that ARE open to new ideas. But at the same time there is no reason a religion in game HAS to.
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Well, yeah. My point was more to imply that a game that tried to be too realistic usually is a boring game, unless the point is to be realistic like a sim. I have a feeling that BM isn't quite so strict on realism.
And, I am not saying that we walk around blasting fireballs out of our eyeballs (though I have certainly asked for something...similar but not that ridiculous). I do mean, though, that, obviously, within reason, there is no need for too much enforcement. I think that if we were to apply something like a bunch of checkboxes for religions, for example, pretty soon we'll see players complaining about how restrictive the options are, like "These checkboxes don't let us worship sparkly vampire dragons" or "There's no checkbox that describes which animals are included in our sacrifices", etc.
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How about praise for Sanguis Astroism? Do I have to open a new thread for that? :P
I'll just say that Sanguis Astroism is the only religion in BattleMaster that has ever really piqued my interest. I don't think any other one has managed to come up with as compelling a religion. And it really has nothing to do with the depth of theology, either. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite. The fact that it is not all written down and set in stone probably has a lot to do with it. There's a feeling that people can contribute and make their mark on things. Rather than have everything carved in stone and handed down from on high, individual players can generally feel like they can help shape the evolution of the theology. So, there's no creation mythos? Feel free to write it, and then we can all get together and debate it. Is there an afterlife among the Stars? Who know. Why don't you write your own interpretation of the Prophet's words and present it to the members for debate. I think that provides for a much better player atmosphere than those religions where one person sits down and writes everything and then tells you what you should believe.
Must not have been involved with Magna Serpaensism at all. All priests were encouraged to add to the mythos and ritual. I remember specifically creating a story about why all the Falasan cities were named Barad X to convince some of the nobles of that realm to join. The pantheon was also setup specifically so that personality types, not character classes, could find a niche. Vulpes was especially popular with one character.
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I find the theological and political debates within SA to be some of the best and most rewarding exchanges I've had in BM. Some of the issues we have debated (the infallibility of the Prophet, whether to revert to a rigid dogma or allow individual interpretations of the teachings) are issues that I'm fairly certain were debated upon in one form or another in the earliest beginnings of true monotheistic religions in the real world. It's actually been fairly fascinating to debate these issues in the context of a young religion that is, contrary to some assertions, taken seriously by quite a large number of characters.
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Personally, I just wish i had more time to properly dig into SA and really get my teeth into it.
My char on Dwilight, Varchilde, considers herself moderate in the Church but, having been converted by Mathurin 'Himself', she is a VERY vocal supporter of Him and tends to lean toward a certain opinion of 'divinity' where he is concerned.
It's safe to say she thinks he walks on water and needs no proof to continue to believe it.
As far as religion in BM goes, I really love the whole idea of SA, let alone the actual enormity of its existence.
It is SUCH a fun tool to play with and delve into.
And yeah, only those who aren't a part of it see it as purely political.
For the Faithful within the Church (for the most part), the Faith is a very real thing and well worthy of lively debate and the occasional duel.
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Common faithful should not question the clergy. Especially not in a SMA continent. Religions which encourage this should be warned.
Religions should be among the most controlled mechanics in the game, imo. There's something seriously wrong that we can for example create a religion to "worship" a god of Trade, without any code of morals/conduct/practise, but that we can't use the "duel" mechanic to simulate a joust.
Religions should reflect realistic religions, and not be abused and used as something more akin to modern frat houses. People are free to create guilds for such groups.
Rubbish. Not all religions have installed a clergy that is an "absolute" authority over their flock. Even some medieval Christian sects had the concept of the Clergy as a guide who is also following the journey rather then "absolute" and the reality for parish preachers was certainly much different the respect and obedience a bishop could command.
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Why do you think BM religions should reflect the Real life religions?
I think we should try to make religions in BM differently than the RL religions. I am a bit disappointed by many regions in BM copying from the real ones actually.
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Soooo what happns when a noble appears in Astrum who comes from strong Magna Serpaensism roots?
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Umm... Nothing? Contrary to popular belief, SA is not a ruthless, intolerant religion. It is perfectly willing to coexist with other religions that are content to coexist with it.
Just don't expect to get a position of authority in a theocracy without being a member of the official religion.
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Soooo what happns when a noble appears in Astrum who comes from strong Magna Serpaensism roots?
If I remember correctly we had a similar case in Astrum's early days with a noble who claimed to follow "Thor".... generally as long as you keep your religion to yourself and don't try to convert people or build any temples then I doubt anything drastic will occur :)
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Lol well that's no fun!
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Lol well that's no fun!
If you want "fun" then you can always go around trying to convert people and denounce SA.... just don't expect any leniency :P
Another way of finding "fun" would be to join SA and try to syncretise Magna Serpaensism with Sanguis Astroism however that could end up with you being investigated for heresy, depending on to what extend you are altering the fundamental teachings. If you are found guilty the consequences may be just as bad as if you tried converting people.
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You never know where the game's path leads you. Just stick with it, and your characters will have breakthroughs someday.
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Lol well that's no fun!
Well, you did select a theocratic realm... There are plenty of monarchies, tyrannies and other government styles on the island. I hear Libero is particularly engaging :)
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So am I allowed to shamelessly campaign on the Forums for the upcoming Consul election in SA?
;)
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So am I allowed to shamelessly campaign on the Forums for the upcoming Consul election in SA?
;)
I would bet you're already doing it in game so probably it won't bring you any advantage doing it on the forums too :p