BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Far East Island => Topic started by: Nathan on October 04, 2011, 11:22:03 PM
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Following the same line as the one for realms, I'd like to find out how we all think religious stack up for power.
I may be slightly biased as an elder of Adgharinism in saying that I think we're the most powerful, followed by The Order of The Elders, The Church of Sartan and then Magna Aenillia Ecclesia.
Adgharinism has Arcachon, most of Ohnar West, a large portion of Toupellon, some of Arcaea, and we even have a temple in Zonasa. We have two rulers, plenty of Lords, a few Dukes, some Ambassadors and a large lot of knights. I'd be interested to know how other religions stack up to this to see if I'm right about my list.
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Following the same line as the one for realms, I'd like to find out how we all think religious stack up for power.
I may be slightly biased as an elder of Adgharinism in saying that I think we're the most powerful, followed by The Order of The Elders, The Church of Sartan and then Magna Aenillia Ecclesia.
Adgharinism has Arcachon, most of Ohnar West, a large portion of Toupellon, some of Arcaea, and we even have a temple in Zonasa. We have two rulers, plenty of Lords, a few Dukes, some Ambassadors and a large lot of knights. I'd be interested to know how other religions stack up to this to see if I'm right about my list.
Cra'ithil has a couple of Dukes, some of the best infilitrators on the islands and backing for glorious plans of expansion, does that count? Magna Aenillia Ecclesia has a lot of temples, and some high ranked members, but what does it actually do, very very little. If the revival goes well then I would consider it a power, otherwise its just a club some people belong to.
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MAE has three rulers (though Cathay counts in name only), a judge and two generals (lol Cathay again), 5 dukes, and several ambassadors along with a goodly handful of barons, counts and other lords.
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Magna Aenillia Ecclesia has a lot of temples, and some high ranked members, but what does it actually do, very very little. If the revival goes well then I would consider it a power, otherwise its just a club some people belong to.
That'll be on our Priest/Ambassadors. Gogo Arella! ;D
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MAE has three rulers (though Cathay counts in name only), a judge and two generals (lol Cathay again), 5 dukes, and several ambassadors along with a goodly handful of barons, counts and other lords.
Again what actual baring does that have though? How many of the rulers would declare war for the religion? Arcachon is the real strength of Adgharinism, they are one of the few realms that are serious about religion. OW also has dedicated faithful that would put the religion before all other considerations.
I consider most of the MAE nobles to be like the majority of Western Christians, they may never have attended church, only have a vague knowledge of the scriptures, which they most likely gained from watching Easter and Christmas TV shows, but still will tick the Christian box on a census.
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/shrug
Wasn't really rating MAE's "power" so much as documenting who belongs. I think Jenred and Guy du are both MAE for political reasons, and Guy at least is loath to involve MAE in conflict (though I think Ryu was worse that way).
Tinwe would welcome a chance to destroy the heretic Cra'ithil, but I don't think that GE is ready for another dance with Arcaea.
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/shrug
Wasn't really rating MAE's "power" so much as documenting who belongs. I think Jenred and Guy du are both MAE for political reasons, and Guy at least is loath to involve MAE in conflict (though I think Ryu was worse that way).
Tinwe would welcome a chance to destroy the heretic Cra'ithil, but I don't think that GE is ready for another dance with Arcaea.
And how is Cra'ithil heretic?
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And how is Cra'ithil heretic?
How can it not be heretical? Cra'ithil adherents are always skulking about in the shadows instead of in the light of the Aenil, and they proclaim the teachings of a false prophet who even claimed to be an Aenil herself!
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How can it not be heretical? Cra'ithil adherents are always skulking about in the shadows instead of in the light of the Aenil, and they proclaim the teachings of a false prophet who even claimed to be an Aenil herself!
Ummm sure okay. The prophet was male, and he never claimed to be an Aenil, but you go with that :) I also seem to recall that the position of our Aenil was ratified by several members of the MAE, we simply chose to follow a single Aenil, much the same as Paladin Jenred chooses to follow his patron Aenil.
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Peasant population wise - Elders are easily the strongest.
We have several dukes, multiple Lords, and various other members on Council positions.
Plus we hold sway everywhere south of GA and Anacan.
What we could DO with it . . .is up for grabs.
We're pretty passive at the moment, though trying to ramp up RP and the like.
Also, does anyone else even HAVE a level 7 Temple on FEI?
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Church of Echad has one, minor Duke! ;D
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Yeah, but you're int he worst possible place for a new faith, smack dab in the middle of the Orders power base.
We'd push 270K followers if we were allowed to out you :D
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The term power here is really loosely defined. If power is pure military might, Adgharianism has the only completely dedicated army it can essentially order around at whim (Hell, they could put whomever they wanted in charge of Arcachon, and if it wasn't an inalienable right I;m sure someone would have figured out ordering Ciann to become a nun would solve a -lot- of problems).
Soft power I gotta go for MAE. It's a longer game for them to get stuff done, but they've got a huge network to leverage.
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Soft power I gotta go for MAE. It's a longer game for them to get stuff done, but they've got a huge network to leverage.
This. That and the fact that slowly, quietly, things are being maneuvered to place MAE in a sort of oversight capacity with umbrella coverage over many of the other religions. MAE embraces all the Aenil, but many of those worshiped by other religions may very well be simply one patron Aenil in the larger pantheon.
And I have yet to really begin. Too many squirrely things going on politically and I'm getting my skill up.
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Ummm sure okay. The prophet was male, and he never claimed to be an Aenil, but you go with that :) I also seem to recall that the position of our Aenil was ratified by several members of the MAE, we simply chose to follow a single Aenil, much the same as Paladin Jenred chooses to follow his patron Aenil.
The Prophet claimed to speak for the false Aenil Linwe, if I'm not mistaken. As far as members of MAE endorsing your idolatry, perhaps the sly words of the Cra'ithil blew mist before their eyes as well!
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The Prophet claimed to speak for the false Aenil Linwe, if I'm not mistaken. As far as members of MAE endorsing your idolatry, perhaps the sly words of the Cra'ithil blew mist before their eyes as well!
I'm sorry, you became the authority on the Aenil when? You have a religion that basically claims that every god know is just a element of the Aenil. Come back when to me when you have some sort of standing with MAE outside of GA. Meanwhile we have the last surviving Paladin to vouch for the position of Linwe :)
Tinwe would welcome a chance to destroy the heretic Cra'ithil, but I don't think that GE is ready for another dance with Arcaea.
Considering the poor effort GA put in with the support of PoZ and the fact that Arcaea also had to defend its northern border, GA never really danced with Arcaea the first time, they kind of just sat around and watched their allies put up a good show.
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This. That and the fact that slowly, quietly, things are being maneuvered to place MAE in a sort of oversight capacity with umbrella coverage over many of the other religions. MAE embraces all the Aenil, but many of those worshiped by other religions may very well be simply one patron Aenil in the larger pantheon.
And I have yet to really begin. Too many squirrely things going on politically and I'm getting my skill up.
We already embrace the Aenil as teaching the Path, thus it gets away being a Variant in Order Lands - hence why we aren't too nit picky about things with the MAE.
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Yeah, but you're int he worst possible place for a new faith, smack dab in the middle of the Orders power base.
We'd push 270K followers if we were allowed to out you :D
Indeed, but it's one of the few places that guarantees us safety via quote, unquote "freedom of religion." Not to mention Zonasa's Regent is now a member.
Also, I feel we're having some moderate success: spreading our peasant base steadily. Two priests (sometimes three, one just paused for a bit, though) and around 9-10 noble members. No Lords thus far, which has been my biggest obstacle.
We'll see.
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Indeed, but it's one of the few places that guarantees us safety via quote, unquote "freedom of religion." Not to mention Zonasa's Regent is now a member.
Also, I feel we're having some moderate success: spreading our peasant base steadily. Two priests (sometimes three, one just paused for a bit, though) and around 9-10 noble members. No Lords thus far, which has been my biggest obstacle.
We'll see.
You could always try to expand into Arcaea, so long as you find a willing Lord there are no laws against religions, unless the religion is found to be promoting treason.
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/shrug
Wasn't really rating MAE's "power" so much as documenting who belongs. I think Jenred and Guy du are both MAE for political reasons, and Guy at least is loath to involve MAE in conflict (though I think Ryu was worse that way).
Tinwe would welcome a chance to destroy the heretic Cra'ithil, but I don't think that GE is ready for another dance with Arcaea.
Jenred actually is a religious fanatic, you know. I think he was the only one to fight Mosesadelphia on theological grounds as much or more than anything else. And he's working on a few other things that I hope will be ready to unveil within the next year, give or take, to show how very deeply he holds his faith.
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You could always try to expand into Arcaea, so long as you find a willing Lord there are no laws against religions, unless the religion is found to be promoting treason.
Indeed, I did have someone up there who was going to try to eventually get a temple built and spread things a little bit. Unfortunately, he left the religion a while ago without ever saying why. :-\
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I'm sorry, you became the authority on the Aenil when? You have a religion that basically claims that every god know is just a element of the Aenil. Come back when to me when you have some sort of standing with MAE outside of GA. Meanwhile we have the last surviving Paladin to vouch for the position of Linwe :)
lol
I don't have standing in MAE in GA or anywhere. I just think that some heretics need to burn. FEI needs more religious fanaticism. ;)
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lol
I don't have standing in MAE in GA or anywhere. I just think that some heretics need to burn. FEI needs more religious fanaticism. ;)
You mean beyond the Sartan/Adghar conflicts, the last religion that got wiped out because it supported the False God Tony (Twilight something?), and the simmering issues in Zonasa? There's a lot of fanaticism on the Far East, but MAE isn't a good place for it, simply because of the way the religion is set up.
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lol
I don't have standing in MAE in GA or anywhere. I just think that some heretics need to burn. FEI needs more religious fanaticism. ;)
Try actually acquainting yourself with the religious politics of the continent before making such claims. It wasn't that long ago that Adghar fanatics went buring temples of Sartan in Arcaea. There was also some religious Turmoil with Thain down south. FEI does a better job with religions then most. Hell we had a bloody crusade against a noble calling himself a god that resulted in at least two destroyed realms, and you always have the ill fated attempts of Sartan to found a new realm.
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You mean beyond the Sartan/Adghar conflicts, the last religion that got wiped out because it supported the False God Tony (Twilight something?), and the simmering issues in Zonasa? There's a lot of fanaticism on the Far East, but MAE isn't a good place for it, simply because of the way the religion is set up.
The Twilight Guardians were well and truly destroyed before Tony ever joined the game.
The Trinity wiped them out when it destroyed The Grand Lodge, way back before Nighthelm lost power. A few Guardians and their Temples were around - but they were pretty much gone. The Order kept one of their temples protected, but it fell down to disrepair a while ago, and that was their end.
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Try actually acquainting yourself with the religious politics of the continent before making such claims. It wasn't that long ago that Adghar fanatics went buring temples of Sartan in Arcaea. There was also some religious Turmoil with Thain down south. FEI does a better job with religions then most. Hell we had a bloody crusade against a noble calling himself a god that resulted in at least two destroyed realms, and you always have the ill fated attempts of Sartan to found a new realm.
Dont remind me. I love Senoske and Thain's religious fanatacism. . .but they always manage to cause the Order trouble >< Nothing like having two religious armies fighting each other. . .and worshipping the same faith :D
"You're the heretics!" "No, YOU are!"
Short version of Thain vs Kindaran Order members :D
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Dont remind me. I love Senoske and Thain's religious fanatacism. . .but they always manage to cause the Order trouble >< Nothing like having two religious armies fighting each other. . .and worshipping the same faith :D
"You're the heretics!" "No, YOU are!"
Short version of Thain vs Kindaran Order members :D
And Thain vs. Zonasa, too . . . then I play the 'I can build a bigger temple than you' card. Because obviously temple size is a measure of religious devotion.
Well, they did consider it to be in the middle ages, so at least I'm being historically correct. . . .
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Try actually acquainting yourself with the religious politics of the continent before making such claims. It wasn't that long ago that Adghar fanatics went buring temples of Sartan in Arcaea. There was also some religious Turmoil with Thain down south. FEI does a better job with religions then most. Hell we had a bloody crusade against a noble calling himself a god that resulted in at least two destroyed realms, and you always have the ill fated attempts of Sartan to found a new realm.
You mean Adgharists and and the church of Sartan arguing about whether they were "burning" temples or merely "closing" them? That's pretty fanatic, but it doesn't quite measure up to Sanguis Astroism or Lady Allison.
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It wasn't that long ago that Adghar fanatics went buring temples of Sartan in Arcaea.
We didn't burn them! We had a party to show you that Sartan is really Tark! But you guys got out of hand, knocked over a few candles, some drapes caught fire and the place burned down. Totally your fault :P
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Well, the last bunch we most certainly burned. C'mon, Ciann's offical title means "Terror/Ghost Queen" so at least the ones she closed were done using a health dose of stabbing and fire.
Heck, she'd probably give up the dutchy of Enlod if she could have Sartanian's banished from the North once and for all.
As a side note, there is a branch of Adgharianism which considers itself a subset of MAE theologically (just that the other entities are unworthy of worship).
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As a side note, there is a branch of Adgharianism which considers itself a subset of MAE theologically (just that the other entities are unworthy of worship).
There's a branch that considers itself a subset of Sartanism too, but we don't talk about them too much :P Our own fault really, "Oh, Sartan is just Tark, and some people worship him" :P
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Try actually acquainting yourself with the religious politics of the continent before making such claims. It wasn't that long ago that Adghar fanatics went buring temples of Sartan in Arcaea. There was also some religious Turmoil with Thain down south. FEI does a better job with religions then most. Hell we had a bloody crusade against a noble calling himself a god that resulted in at least two destroyed realms, and you always have the ill fated attempts of Sartan to found a new realm.
Ill attempts? More like awesome attempts! But no, I would like to hold a Crusade sometime, perhaps when an Empire is formed and there are more Sartanians outside of Sorraine.
lol
I don't have standing in MAE in GA or anywhere. I just think that some heretics need to burn. FEI needs more religious fanaticism. ;)
You're welcome. It'll keep growing as well, considering religious fanaticism is the name of the game in Sorraine. Once everything is set in stone on the inside, that's when the fun begins elsewhere 8).
On a side note, felt like reviving the topic after so much has changed. Adgharhinism is now dead, or so we think. Sartanism is dramatically on the rise like breeding rabbits during mating season, and MAE is just a massive joke. When Queen Arella demonstrated some kind of animosity to my closing of an Aenilian temple, 2 months or more after it happened, I laughed. Even more-so when she forgot about it almost immediately. This new Dragon religion has next to no chance of surviving, considering Ohnar West's time on this continent is drawing to an end. That, and they're surrounded by a bunch of religious fanatics.
My opinions may be biased due to my inherent bias in favor of Sartanism :P.
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When Queen Arella demonstrated some kind of animosity to my closing of an Aenilian temple, 2 months or more after it happened, I laughed. Even more-so when she forgot about it almost immediately.
Arella wasn't ruler when it happened, and only brought it up to prove Sorraine wasn't as free and open as you were trying to convince the southern alliance you would be. And trust me, she never forgot. But that's one of the many things that made it impossible to take Caspius at his word and why his not-very-convincing attempt at an alliance never got off the ground. Caspius speaks too much doublespeak, but it's not like most. It's not truth or lies. It's political or religious. Which is more subtle, but far more dangerous to everyone.
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It's also what makes it more fun.
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I do quite like the fact that Caspius has set up the realm in such a way that at any given moment Selene could depose him single handedly without anyone being able to do a thing to stop it. Yay for theocracies!
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But in terms of power rankings I think the Church of Sartan is probably the most powerful at the moment in terms of the activity within it and the number of committed nobles.
And, if it isn't already the most powerful then it will be as soon as the Dark Isle is colonised :)
Then the only thing we'll need is a crusade against a suitably week foe in order to unite the faithful *cackles*
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And, coincidentally, we need to finish off Ohnar West, too!
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Taylin doesn't have any particular leanings toward the Sartan Church. What's her angle with Sorraine? Just in it for the action?
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I think Taylin is just being fairly pragmatic about things. I don't see her as an especially religious type.
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Arella wasn't ruler when it happened, and only brought it up to prove Sorraine wasn't as free and open as you were trying to convince the southern alliance you would be. And trust me, she never forgot. But that's one of the many things that made it impossible to take Caspius at his word and why his not-very-convincing attempt at an alliance never got off the ground. Caspius speaks too much doublespeak, but it's not like most. It's not truth or lies. It's political or religious. Which is more subtle, but far more dangerous to everyone.
I still fail to see where Caspius gave any hint to a "free" and "open" holy kingdom. I think there is a distinct difference between what the south interpreted as Caspius' intentions, and his actual intentions.
EDIT:
I do quite like the fact that Caspius has set up the realm in such a way that at any given moment Selene could depose him single handedly without anyone being able to do a thing to stop it. Yay for theocracies!
There are definitely ways to counter that, should it happen, but the power is intended to be in the hands of the church. I feel this game lacks dramatically in religious authority and influence, and if I have to sacrifice my own power to assure religion actually has a place, I will gladly do so on all of my characters.
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There are definitely ways to counter that, should it happen, but the power is intended to be in the hands of the church. I feel this game lacks dramatically in religious authority and influence, and if I have to sacrifice my own power to assure religion actually has a place, I will gladly do so on all of my characters.
Unfortunately this is most certainly true. Religion is considered like a tool rather than an true and valid faith in Battlemaster. I really wish the people who used it solely as a tool or specifically went around SAYING it's a tool would be 'bolted. -_-
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Unfortunately this is most certainly true. Religion is considered like a tool rather than an true and valid faith in Battlemaster. I really wish the people who used it solely as a tool or specifically went around SAYING it's a tool would be 'bolted. -_-
Plenty of people do and did use in as a tool in RL. They just rarely say it outright (though some have).
People using religion as a tool, even viewing it primarily or only as such, is perfectly realistic. As I recall, Machiavelli, who is only just barely post-medieval, wrote on the uses of religion as a tool, just to give one example.
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Plenty of people do and did use in as a tool in RL. They just rarely say it outright (though some have).
People using religion as a tool, even viewing it primarily or only as such, is perfectly realistic. As I recall, Machiavelli, who is only just barely post-medieval, wrote on the uses of religion as a tool, just to give one example.
He did. Quite openly, and quite specifically, and at great length.
What I'd really like to see more of (and what I attempted to do with Koli) is use politics as a tool for religious purposes.
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He did. Quite openly, and quite specifically, and at great length.
What I'd really like to see more of (and what I attempted to do with Koli) is use politics as a tool for religious purposes.
Plenty of people do and did use in as a tool in RL. They just rarely say it outright (though some have).
People using religion as a tool, even viewing it primarily or only as such, is perfectly realistic. As I recall, Machiavelli, who is only just barely post-medieval, wrote on the uses of religion as a tool, just to give one example.
Machiavelli was a hardcore sociopath....
You both make it seem like religion was just a tool, which it wasn't. Nobles of the western world grew up their entire lives having Catholicism drilled into them. They lived, ate, and slept religion. Having it be a dramatic influence in their everyday actions is the attribute at which Draco and I feel is missing. Most players in this game shove religion aside as an obstacle, giving it little to no attention as their rise their way through the ranks. Having everybody be Machiavelli is outrageous for a 'medieval atmosphere' game, Dwilight or not.
Which leads to my point. When religion was the major influence in everyone's life, it was then used as a tool at which to use the faithful. That is exactly what I'm trying to build in Sorraine. The tool Bardic has misinterpreted and Draco is speaking of is its in-game function in resisting takeovers - essentially - and the other code functional benefits that go along.
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Machiavelli was a hardcore sociopath....
You both make it seem like religion was just a tool, which it wasn't. Nobles of the western world grew up their entire lives having Catholicism drilled into them. They lived, ate, and slept religion. Having it be a dramatic influence in their everyday actions is the attribute at which Draco and I feel is missing. Most players in this game shove religion aside as an obstacle, giving it little to no attention as their rise their way through the ranks. Having everybody be Machiavelli is outrageous for a 'medieval atmosphere' game, Dwilight or not.
Which leads to my point. When religion was the major influence in everyone's life, it was then used as a tool at which to use the faithful. That is exactly what I'm trying to build in Sorraine. The tool Bardic has misinterpreted and Draco is speaking of is its in-game function in resisting takeovers - essentially - and the other code functional benefits that go along.
There are a hundred non-mechanical ways to apply religion to politics. On Dwilight, for example, my characters have historically been able to wield enormous power through their religion, and virtually none of that power came from the gross mechanical effects of what a priest can do in the game, nor did they seek to use it for exclusively religious ends. Neither have they been particularly zealous, though obviously they're not stupid enough to appear openly faithless (not that they are).
I see nothing wrong with treating medieval religion cynically. Many prominent historical figures of the medieval ruling class did exactly that in real life. Think Henry II, Henry VIII, and Philip IV of France. Think the Avignon Papacy, which came about for purely political reasons. Think of what happened to Joan of Arc. Think, for that matter, of virtually every French and English King ever. 'True faith' was for the peasantry. Nobles were too savvy and too cynical to care that much, and if they were true believers they generally weren't very good rulers. Being a successful monarch required more than a little ruthlessness and pragmatism.
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'True faith' was for the peasantry. Nobles were too savvy and too cynical to care that much, and if they were true believers they generally weren't very good rulers. Being a successful monarch required more than a little ruthlessness and pragmatism.
Bull!@#$. King Alfred the Great, much? The nobility and the peasantry were similarly pious. Saying that the vast majority of European nobility were even in the slightest bit intellectual is a bit of a longshot, much less a bunch of cynics and free-thinkers. Especially when you consider the fact that "scholarly" men were most often those the most involved with the church.
Edit: since we're modelling all of EU nobility here, not just royalty, how about the knights hospitaller or other such holy order that was largely composed of the highborn?
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Bull!@#$. King Alfred the Great, much? The nobility and the peasantry were similarly pious. Saying that the vast majority of European nobility were even in the slightest bit intellectual is a bit of a longshot, much less a bunch of cynics and free-thinkers. Especially when you consider the fact that "scholarly" men were most often those the most involved with the church.
Edit: since we're modelling all of EU nobility here, not just royalty, how about the knights hospitaller or other such holy order that was largely composed of the highborn?
Fair enough, I made my statement too sweeping. The point is, religion and politics were never that far apart. Cynical manipulation of religion for political purposes is not a modern phenomenon, and is historically quite common. Look at the history of another knightly order: The Knights Templar. Or the Fourth Crusade that destroyed Constantinople. I'm not saying that true faith didn't exist, but to say that BM players treat religion too cynically? Well, I'm not sure I agree.
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Fair enough, I made my statement too sweeping. The point is, religion and politics were never that far apart. Cynical manipulation of religion for political purposes is not a modern phenomenon, and is historically quite common. Look at the history of another knightly order: The Knights Templar. Or the Fourth Crusade that destroyed Constantinople. I'm not saying that true faith didn't exist, but to say that BM players treat religion too cynically? Well, I'm not sure I agree.
People exploited religion, sure. But that was only possible because people actually believed it. And exactly, religion and politics weren't too far apart; I would go as far as to say that they're indistinct. When everyone doesn't give two !@#$s about their faith, they're totally separated (as you can see ingame whenever some pseudo-atheist tells everyone to separate their religious and political beliefs). It's far too easy to be machiavellian and distant about your faith when it's a video game. What's more, nobody would ever openly say that they didn't believe in a faith and that they were only in it to exploit their compatriots. Machiavelli doesn't count because he's not medieval and The Prince was a satire.
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What we have to bear in mind is that things were and are never clear cut. Lots of medieval nobles genuinely believed that if they didn't cancel out their sins they would burn for all eternity. Of course, since sinning was so popular the church created a loophole whereby nobles could buy salvation through donations to the church as long as they at least kept their sinning private. But even most of those who did commit adultery and murder people still believed in the religious doctrine and generally went out of their way to appear pious - not to mention condemning anyone who publicly flouted religious customs.
However, that didn't me that nobles didn't see the power of religion and didn't use it. After all, many of the great events in european history were motivated by a combination of piety and pragmatism. Such as the crusades, for example. Go on one this and you have the opportunity to get rich by taking other people's lands - but at the same time it's the pious thing to do and it will redeem your soul.
And, to be honest, I think that's how most medieval nobles would have behaved. They would have been believers but they'd also have balanced the pragmatic considerations of any situation as well.
So I don't really see anything wrong with characters using religion for political ends - but just bluntly using it as a tool without any figleafs or having a meaningless religion (like the Path of Chivalry in Oritolon) is the kind of thing which I do think should be seriously frowned upon.
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Machiavelli doesn't count because he's not medieval and The Prince was a satire.
It never ceases to disappoint me how many people just don't seem to get this.
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You both make it seem like religion was just a tool, which it wasn't.
Where did I ever say that? My post specifically said that I wanted more people to use politics as a tool to support religion, not the other way around.
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It never ceases to disappoint me how many people just don't seem to get this.
Machiavelli was not medieval. Machiavelli wrote about many medieval Rulers, however, as well as various general principals applicable from the earliest days of the Romans to the current day in addition to early modern Rulers and the like.
There is also no conclusive evidence that the Prince was a satire. I think it's more instructive to look at when in life he wrote the Prince as opposed to, say, the Discourses on Livy. He wrote the former later in life, and he was always a partisan of a united Italy. It's not terribly hard to envision a man who felt that a united Italian Republic was not practical after decades of experience in politics, and thought that a united Italy was more important than his republican principles.
Besides, even if it were a satire, it's very, very good advice for would be and current Rulers, as various Holy Roman Emperors and the Founding Fathers of the United States found (though, of course, the latter were more interested in the Discourses on Livy).
And I would like to finish with this: Just because you believe in something, doesn't mean you can't use it as a tool for other ends.
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And I would like to finish with this: Just because you believe in something, doesn't mean you can't use it as a tool for other ends.
And to use it as a tool, others have to believe in it too. We have finished the loop :P.
Forgive me for assuming that you said such; I tied your argument in support to Bardic's, and went from there. Sorry.
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There are a hundred non-mechanical ways to apply religion to politics. On Dwilight, for example, my characters have historically been able to wield enormous power through their religion, and virtually none of that power came from the gross mechanical effects of what a priest can do in the game, nor did they seek to use it for exclusively religious ends. Neither have they been particularly zealous, though obviously they're not stupid enough to appear openly faithless (not that they are).
I stated the game was lacking in religious authority and influence, not that it was absent. You've played in Astrum and Kabrinskia on Dwilight, leading me to believe you're part of Sanguis Astroism. Evidently, I wasn't making reference to Sanguis Astroism - the religion you historically wielded enormous power through - considering its the prime example of what I want to see more of - or close to it - in this game. Its an ensemble of theocracies that enforce the law of their religion. Aetheris Pyrism is beginning to make some steps in the right direction, but so far, it keeps itself out of politics, which I disagree with.
But since this is an FEI thread, I'm speaking about religions like MAE, or the countless prominent nobles who've stated that everyone should toss religion aside. MAE because it exerts NO religious authority and its followers are essentially atheists. If anything, its a forgotten lifestyle. Then there are the preachers of atheism, who believe that anything relating to a god should be tossed aside for the good of the realm or its stability. The amount of pragmatism these people have doubles that of Machiavelli, and considering there are a lot of them, its simply ridiculous.
Edited some grammar :P
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But since this is an FEI thread, I'm speaking about religions like MAE, or the countless prominent nobles who've stated that everyone should toss religion aside. MAE because it exerts NO religious authority and its followers are essentially atheists. If anything, its a forgotten lifestyle. Then there are the preachers of atheism, who believe that anything relating to a god should be tossed aside for the good of the realm or its stability. The amount of pragmatism these people have doubles that of Machiavelli, and considering there are a lot of them, its simply ridiculous.
I've attempted a few times to change that trend in MAE, and Arella and Jenred were actually working on another big attempt which I hope to take up again. Jenred would happily help you burn atheists as well.
Also, anyone who openly professes that they are using religion solely as a tool didn't read their Machiavelli very carefully.
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Unfortunately, Bedwyr, there are plenty who do outright. Or try to claim IC that religion has no place/influence on politics. It's just not a very medieval mindset which drives a few of us absolutely batty.
People have long claimed the same about the CoH from EC that Arundel has indicated, but I've been slowly trying to turn that around since I took the reins of it two or so years ago, including slowly tweaking it from purely philosophy to a monotheistic faith. When we spread to FEI as planned, it'll continue that course. There are people, of course, who try to claim religion is meant to be a tool (the Margrave of Bescanon's character on EC springs to mind) or that politics trump faith (which from an IC standpoint where people still think God would smite them makes little sense!), so that kind of establishes itself as a roadblock.
I understand, EC/BT aren't SMA or official RP continents, but there should still be some sense enforced.
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When we spread to FEI as planned
Not if my missionaries spread the Church of Sartan to the EC first :p
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When we spread to FEI as planned, it'll continue that course.
Please don't.
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But since this is an FEI thread, I'm speaking about religions like MAE, or the countless prominent nobles who've stated that everyone should toss religion aside. MAE because it exerts NO religious authority and its followers are essentially atheists. If anything, its a forgotten lifestyle. Then there are the preachers of atheism, who believe that anything relating to a god should be tossed aside for the good of the realm or its stability. The amount of pragmatism these people have doubles that of Machiavelli, and considering there are a lot of them, its simply ridiculous.
Edited some grammar :P
Pragmatism (or cynicism) and secularism are not the same thing, and what you're talking about sounds more like secularism. It sounds like players are carrying their personal beliefs and inclinations over into their characters. I agree that secularism as a principle has no place in a medieval simulation.
I've heard these complaints before, in fact I think there are some threads in the General Discussion forum along these lines. Nothing will change though without people going out of their way to create the social pressures that existed during medieval times IC. If someone talks smack about religion, religious characters in the realm should shun or even openly persecute him. If an entire realm embraces atheism as a guiding principle, one or more religions should stir up a crusade to crush the apostate kingdom before their blasphemous principles can spread and seduce others of the faithful away from the Truth.
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Not if my missionaries spread the Church of Sartan to the EC first :p
Before or after it's seen as an attempt to revive the CoI and is wiped out? Seriously, it has little chance for that very reason. Where are they going to find refuge? The two break-away Ibby Kingdoms? Would they truly risk Perdan and Caligus marching against them?
Please don't.
Tough? Only a matter of time until we spread to Dwilight and Colonies as well. Though Colonies is a little more difficult as we can't seem to find people willing to actually play on that continent OOC yet alone deal with it IC... The one turn a day thing is a turnoff for many people, it seems!
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Isn't this thread about Religious power rankings of FEI?
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Yes it is. So, here's my ranking:
Church of Sartan
MAE
Order of the Elders
Church of Echad
Craiithil
Way of the Dragons
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Cra'ithil died a while ago, I suspect after Melehan executed one of their priests. Now there is something called the trinity.
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Cra'ithil died a while ago.
And they're still stronger than the Way of the Dragon.
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The Trinity was around on FEI once before actually. It was an offshoot of the Trinity in the colonies.
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Velax asked Me'hoe on the ruler's channel if he knew anything about the Way of the Dragon and if it was a recreation of Adgharinism. Me'hoe said he knew nothing about the Dragon and that he'd never heard of Adgharinism before. Velax decided not to talk to Me'hoe anymore.
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Me'hoe said he knew nothing about the Dragon and that he'd never heard of Adgharinism before.
This guy can't even lie convincingly. ::)
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Velax asked Me'hoe on the ruler's channel if he knew anything about the Way of the Dragon and if it was a recreation of Adgharinism. Me'hoe said he knew nothing about the Dragon and that he'd never heard of Adgharinism before. Velax decided not to talk to Me'hoe anymore.
Oh, it gets better: Mehoe then asked Morgan and Arella if we had heard about this prophet, which slightly implied that he wasn't sure he had.
Morgan is now wondering if Me'hoe is just really dumb, or . . . well, he's not sure what other explanations there could be. Maybe compulsive lying or insanity.
Pity it's winter and it takes so long to get to Ohnar West from Zonasa now.
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Morgan is now wondering if Me'hoe is just really dumb, or . . . well, he's not sure what other explanations there could be. Maybe compulsive lying or insanity.
Maybe... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ObfuscatingStupidity)
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Pragmatism (or cynicism) and secularism are not the same thing, and what you're talking about sounds more like secularism. It sounds like players are carrying their personal beliefs and inclinations over into their characters. I agree that secularism as a principle has no place in a medieval simulation.
I've heard these complaints before, in fact I think there are some threads in the General Discussion forum along these lines. Nothing will change though without people going out of their way to create the social pressures that existed during medieval times IC. If someone talks smack about religion, religious characters in the realm should shun or even openly persecute him. If an entire realm embraces atheism as a guiding principle, one or more religions should stir up a crusade to crush the apostate kingdom before their blasphemous principles can spread and seduce others of the faithful away from the Truth.
Pragmatism (being practical moreover than cynical in my opinion) is done through a means of secularism. From what I've seen, its a way to run your realm with less conflict and to keep the game at a very basic level. This is done either to create a more effective and united land or to limit the amount of work needed to organize/maintain/regulate/punish religion, religious authority, or religious people. I'm not a religious person outside of this game, so either its not done for the reason you gave, or its an indication of how bad people are at assuming a role and playing a character. Either way, such behavior ruins the game.
Its difficult for a religion to stir up a Crusade when every other realm is also atheist, i.e FEI. Arella and Edmund have already expressed concern - not for their religions, but more or less for the integrity of their friendly nations (Ohnar West) - which is lame considering that reflects on their own zealotry. Its also difficult to openly shun someone in your realm when barely anyone cares about religion in the first place. BUT, I rectified the whole religion thing in my realm because I had the power to do so, making it possible for others to do the same.
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Its difficult for a religion to stir up a Crusade when every other realm is also atheist, i.e FEI.
NeoSartania never needed other realms to be religious in order to start crusades against them . . . why do you think Morgan is somewhat wary of Sorriane being a theocracy of Sartania?
There are very good reasons Zonasa has a strong tradition of keeping religion as non-public as possible. There are a number of different religions in Zonasa, and we don't want them to fight, so any and all religion is tolerated, and religions that say other religions are bad in public are looked upon with great suspicion.
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NeoSartania never needed other realms to be religious in order to start crusades against them . . . why do you think Morgan is somewhat wary of Sorriane being a theocracy of Sartania?
There are very good reasons Zonasa has a strong tradition of keeping religion as non-public as possible. There are a number of different religions in Zonasa, and we don't want them to fight, so any and all religion is tolerated, and religions that say other religions are bad in public are looked upon with great suspicion.
NeoSartania doesn't exist anymore, now does it? If everyone is secular, their counter-crusade can be much more deadly. That's why its difficult.
And that's terribly sad and unfortunate. You have done what I described in my last post, making me weep for the nobles in Zonasa and their limited gameplay opportunities by demoting religion. Once OW is out of the picture, I'll make PoZ next on the chopping block. Already outnumber them in noble count 8).
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Once OW is out of the picture, I'll make PoZ next on the chopping block. Already outnumber them in noble count 8).
/me supports this.
We need more action, not more wibbling and waffling.
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NeoSartania never needed other realms to be religious in order to start crusades against them . . . why do you think Morgan is somewhat wary of Sorriane being a theocracy of Sartania?
There are very good reasons Zonasa has a strong tradition of keeping religion as non-public as possible. There are a number of different religions in Zonasa, and we don't want them to fight, so any and all religion is tolerated, and religions that say other religions are bad in public are looked upon with great suspicion.
This mindset starts with the presumption that conflict is bad, when in fact conflict is what makes the game interesting. The adherents of different religions in your realm ought to be competing for power, influence, and fresh converts. They don't even have to be killing each other to do that. I wish more people used religion as a way to set goals for their characters and tried to promote the growth and prosperity of their religion the same way they try to promote the growth and prosperity of their realm.
When I finally get my fracking priest to FEI (now I can't emigrate him because I have to be in Eponllyn for two weeks before I can emigrate... If it's not one thing it's another damnit), I hope to try to encourage this sort of mindset, not just in Sorraine but elsewhere...
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Once OW is out of the picture, I'll make PoZ next on the chopping block. Already outnumber them in noble count 8).
Why doncha take em both at the same time! Surely a god favored realm like Sorraine doesn't need to worry about feeble stats like noble count, when deciding to take on realms!
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This mindset starts with the presumption that conflict is bad, when in fact conflict is what makes the game interesting. The adherents of different religions in your realm ought to be competing for power, influence, and fresh converts. They don't even have to be killing each other to do that. I wish more people used religion as a way to set goals for their characters and tried to promote the growth and prosperity of their religion the same way they try to promote the growth and prosperity of their realm.
This. This this this this this this this this this this this. Are you reading this? Because this. Simply and passionately, this. In fact, a redaction of this is going to be Sorraine's new member's notice.
Why doncha take em both at the same time! Surely a god favored realm like Sorraine doesn't need to worry about feeble stats like noble count, when deciding to take on realms!
With OW, it'll probably be 'taking.' With PoZ, its more or less destroying and allowing say... Cathay to take it. I don't want anything further south other than Isular and Topenah, the latter being a near impossibility. :(. This is the other reason why PoZ can wait.
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NeoSartania never needed other realms to be religious in order to start crusades against them . . . why do you think Morgan is somewhat wary of Sorriane being a theocracy of Sartania?
NeoSartania started exactly one war - and that was only with the very, very heavy prompting and pushing of Thain and C'thonia. Unfortunately it sort of backfired when C'thonia decided that a better prospect than allying with NS as promised would be to stab them in the back and steal their lands instead.
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And then Cathay took some of C'thonia's lands. And Kindara took Cathay's. Round and round we go...
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The Trinity was around on FEI once before actually. It was an offshoot of the Trinity in the colonies.
Indeed, I founded it as an offshoot in Soliferum with the intention of founding a new theocracy. That never happened and we reached our fullest potential at the height of Soliferum's power despite it not being the official religion of Soliferum.
There are still a few active enough nobles in it, but Cid was the only one outwardly active enough to try and push his militant idea of religion wherever he could get away with it. When Soliferum died and Cid along with it most of the activity is gone. If the Trinity was on a rankings list I'd say we'd be toward the bottom, though I dont know how dead some of those other religions are since I havent heard of a good chunk of them outside the big ones.
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Well these are the current religions of the Far East.
The Church of Sartan
The Order of the Elders
Magna Aenilia Ecclesia
The Trinity
Church of Echad
The Way of the Dragon
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And an update.
The Church of Sartan
The Order of the Elders
Magna Aenilia Ecclesia
The Way of the Dragon
The Church of Humanity
Am I the only amused that the topic started by someone saying Adgharism was the strongest faith? I'd rate the faiths as follows;
1. The Order of the Elders
2. The Church of Sartan
3. MAE
4. TWotD
5. CoH
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The leader of the Order rates the Order as the most powerful. Shocking. :P
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That doesn't mean he's wrong.
Although I'd rate most religions on FEI as pretty much powerless.
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I may be a bit biased, but looking at the facts:
The FEI has 632216 peasants, according to the region list. The Order has 240000+ followers as of my last religion spread. 22 nobles, two of whom are monarchs, and a huge recruitment drive right now, and several nobles I know will be joining the religion shortly. Not to mention the South is almost solely the territory of the Order.
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Who's the second monarch? Edmund?
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I may be a bit biased, but looking at the facts:
The FEI has 632216 peasants, according to the region list. The Order has 240000+ followers as of my last religion spread. 22 nobles, two of whom are monarchs, and a huge recruitment drive right now, and several nobles I know will be joining the religion shortly. Not to mention the South is almost solely the territory of the Order.
Pfft... numbers. They mean nothing.
Well, not *nothing*, but mostly nothing. If you don't, or can't, do anything with them, then what good are they? Specifically, the peasant count. Who cares? Use it, or it means nothing. You've declared a holy war against Church of Sartan and what's happened as a result? I think one region lord sacked one temple. Woohoo! Victory for the Order, eh?
Meh. When I see entire realms declaring war on Sartanian theocracies specifically because the Order told them to do so, and marching armies to burn down Sartanian temples, then I'll consider the possibility that the Order may be something other than the bog-standard, crap-placeholder religion that comprises most of the Battlemaster religious experience.
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Give a man some time. Pulling realms out of a war both sides are convinced they can win isn't easy after all.
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If you really had any power, it wouldn't be that hard. ;)
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Anyone who's played a noble in SA knows that a religion isn't truly powerful until they can make half a continent stop what they are doing and attack one city/stronghold.
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Who's the second monarch? Edmund?
Yes.
Anyone who's played a noble in SA knows that a religion isn't truly powerful until they can make half a continent stop what they are doing and attack one city/stronghold.
Ah . . . fun times.
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Who's the second monarch? Edmund?
Edmund felt lost and abandoned by his gods when the Trinity up and died and then Alpha invited him to take a look at the Elders so I had him join to see where it could take him.
He's still in the process of being truly convinced, but he likes what he sees so far. Mostly because he's convinced himself that it was divine will that he was introduced to the Elders anyway.
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I'm in doubt of the strength of the Order at this point. It is true that the order controls most of Kindara and Zonasa. However beyond that the control is very limited. Arcaea will accept no dominant religion (due to Velax' influence) and as a result Sartan, Elders and MA have some foot in Arcaea (fun times).
Cathay is no longer fond of the Elders really also due to the last war (which the Order power house (kindara zonasa) lost.) So I wonder how much strength the Order truly holds beyond the south.
The same however goes for the Church of Sartan. It controls all of Sorraine, has some foot in Arcaea and the Dark Isles now and also some in Cathay. But it will not be able to steer Arcaea or Cathay into war.
The key factor in all of this is still Arcaea I think as Velax seems to stop most religious warfare and actions.
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I wouldn't be so sure about your feelings regarding Sorraine and Arcaea...
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Cathay is no longer fond of the Elders really also due to the last war (which the Order power house (kindara zonasa) lost.) So I wonder how much strength the Order truly holds beyond the south.
Is that honestly an issue or just religious supporters drumming up conspiracies where they don't exist? The war had nothing to do with religion so I dont see why Cathay would have sour grapes over the Elders.
The same however goes for the Church of Sartan. It controls all of Sorraine, has some foot in Arcaea and the Dark Isles now and also some in Cathay.
I havent seen hard numbers, but I've been hearing that while the Church controls their realm politically, they don't have much in the way of actual peasant followers in any of their regions. Is there any truth to that?
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It would seems so from the region reports I get.
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Cathay is no longer fond of the Elders really also due to the last war (which the Order power house (kindara zonasa) lost.) So I wonder how much strength the Order truly holds beyond the south.
I'm not aware that Cathay has any opposition to the Elders outside of having some Sartanian nobles who obviously don't want the Elders to spread in Cathay. But the war didn't impact them - none of the regions we took had temples to the Elders. Haul had peasants who worshiped them but no temples.
The Church of Humanity 'lost' in that they lost three regions with temples, but the temples are staying, so it's more of a draw.
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I'm in doubt of the strength of the Order at this point. It is true that the order controls most of Kindara and Zonasa. However beyond that the control is very limited. Arcaea will accept no dominant religion (due to Velax' influence) and as a result Sartan, Elders and MA have some foot in Arcaea (fun times).
Cathay is no longer fond of the Elders really also due to the last war (which the Order power house (kindara zonasa) lost.) So I wonder how much strength the Order truly holds beyond the south.
The same however goes for the Church of Sartan. It controls all of Sorraine, has some foot in Arcaea and the Dark Isles now and also some in Cathay. But it will not be able to steer Arcaea or Cathay into war.
The key factor in all of this is still Arcaea I think as Velax seems to stop most religious warfare and actions.
I'm amused by Zonasa being called an 'Order power house.' It's kind of the opposite of Sorraine in that regard -- tons of followers, both peasants and nobility, but the Order has very little political influence -- a lot of politically important people in Zonasa are members of the Order, but how much this carries over into policy is debatable.
Morgan also has a strong tradition of trying to stop religious warfare (at least, if it seems like it will affect Zonasa), though his preferred method is to wipe out religions that start trouble. That was one reason he was quite willing to let an old friend and one of his dukes be executed by Zonasa's judge -- they had started a religious revolt in Zonasa.
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I'm not aware that Cathay has any opposition to the Elders outside of having some Sartanian nobles who obviously don't want the Elders to spread in Cathay. But the war didn't impact them - none of the regions we took had temples to the Elders. Haul had peasants who worshiped them but no temples.
Well, it did at the start of the war -- but Sorraine burned it down (along with one in Razrpot). Which is a large part of why Morgan wants Sorraine destroyed.
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I'm amused by Zonasa being called an 'Order power house.' It's kind of the opposite of Sorraine in that regard -- tons of followers, both peasants and nobility, but the Order has very little political influence
I disagree. :)
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I disagree. :)
That was more because you did it in the name of Sartan than that you did it against Thain.
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That was more because you did it in the name of Sartan than that you did it against Thain.
Well, I'd imagine murder and "bloodletting" is how one worships the God of War.
Though there's a LOT of people in the CoS who disagree with me... :P
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Well, I'd imagine murder and "bloodletting" is how one worships the God of War.
This is why Morgan has never exactly trusted the religion, regardless of what their followers say.
Also, the fact that their theocracies have a habit of going to war with Zonasa.
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The Church of Humanity 'lost' in that they lost three regions with temples, but the temples are staying, so it's more of a draw.
The Church of Sartan is aware that the Church of Humanity followers burned a Sartanian temple during the conflict with the Order. They won't forget that.
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The Church of Sartan is aware that the Church of Humanity followers burned a Sartanian temple during the conflict with the Order. They won't forget that.
Where did that happen? Not to say it didnt happen ( I know the CoH isnt at all fond of Sartan or your Ibladeshi newcomers in general), I just cant remember it.
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The Church of Humanity 'lost' in that they lost three regions with temples, but the temples are staying, so it's more of a draw.
...what three regions? If you mean Azros's duchy, only Azros itself had a CoH temple. The other is an Order of the Elders temple.
Where did that happen? Not to say it didnt happen ( I know the CoH isnt at all fond of Sartan or your Ibladeshi newcomers in general), I just cant remember it.
My Zonosan character burned a few shrines and torched a temple. Cathay should thank him for weakening the Sartanist control even by a little bit! Sadly, they just reappoint Sartanist lords. Well, when they're absorbed and turned into a theocracy, I guess they'll learn.
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Cathay has two or three Sartanist lords. They have a good amount of influence but the rest of Cathay was sort of by definition the "non-Sartanian" element of Toupellon. Galiard is probably on the same page as Morgan when it comes to uppity churches.
I wasn't aware that the CoH had burned a Sartanist temple though.
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CoH does not. Individuals do.
Well, CoH does not unless a crusade is called. Which has only happened twice. Both times on EC, but only because the other faiths were actively persecuting the Faithful.
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I like when we have long discussions in the FEI forum. Seems to happen so rarely.
Velax's stance, which is probably well known by now, is that he won't tolerate any religious warfare inside Arcaean borders. You want to crusade, you take it elsewhere. He also frowns on other realms using secular war as an excuse to advance their religious cause.
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CoH does not. Individuals do.
Well, CoH does not unless a crusade is called. Which has only happened twice. Both times on EC, but only because the other faiths were actively persecuting the Faithful.
Wasn't it the prophet of CoH who burned down the temple?
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1. We don't have prophets. If you mean the founder (as in the founder of the CoH on FEI), then no. We never actually got around to promoting him to anything above Initiate.
Malos is the Grand Cleric Ecclesiarch of the Far East.
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Edmund's opinion of religion is pretty similar to Velax's. He has a religious side, but he never allows it to take precedence over realm affairs and he really, really distrusts theocracies for a good variety of reasons.
Well, when they're absorbed and turned into a theocracy, I guess they'll learn.
I hope that never happens. That'd pretty much make a Toupellon-sized Sartanist pain in the butt for everyone. It'd take an awful lot for that to happen to Cathay though, I think.
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That would be awesome. Wake up FEI from the stale rut it's in.
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I like when we have long discussions in the FEI forum. Seems to happen so rarely.
Velax's stance, which is probably well known by now, is that he won't tolerate any religious warfare inside Arcaean borders. You want to crusade, you take it elsewhere. He also frowns on other realms using secular war as an excuse to advance their religious cause.
I do believe Velax actually threatened Henzo if he went on campaign into the rurals for this very reason, though it was a mistaken one. Henzo had no plans whatsoever for burning down temples, and could care less.
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Well, when they're absorbed and turned into a theocracy, I guess they'll learn.
Sartania still goes through its twice-annual implosions, no matter what it is called. Galiard gets along with them well enough and legitimately likes them, but he's been around too long not to have a contingency plan - I'm not one to blow a lot of hot air on the forums but I can't see the Church of Sartan ever making a successful power play in Cathay, at least not without a Sartanian coming to power as King. Very little would make Galiard, Edmund, and Morgan best buddies in a shorter time than the Church over-playing its hand in Cathay, and I don't think any of the current Church elders would try it. At least, if I were them, I'd have Galiard killed first, but as we've seen, that can be problematic for other reasons...
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I do believe Velax actually threatened Henzo if he went on campaign into the rurals for this very reason, though it was a mistaken one. Henzo had no plans whatsoever for burning down temples, and could care less.
Velax wasn't the only ruler to assume that Sorraine's adventures into Zonasan rurals were for the purposes of temple burning. Either way, Sorraine was needed in Haul.
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The current crop of Sartanian elders are too pacifist. Which really sucks for a religion centered around a war god.
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The current crop of Sartanian elders are too pacifist. Which really sucks for a religion centered around a war god.
Part of the problem there is that only three people are playing the five elders. More activity and conflicting opinions among them would be nice, but Mathilda is plenty interested in war to make up for them.
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I've suggested one, but there were no takers.
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I've suggested one, but there were no takers.
Suggested a war? I think I know what you're talking about -- it's not guaranteed to happen yet, but we're planning it in the new war council.
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The current crop of Sartanian elders are too pacifist. Which really sucks for a religion centered around a war god.
It wasn't too bad but then the only warlike one got excommunicated and murdered.
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And used for CoH propaganda. >.>
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And used for CoH propaganda. >.>
Elaborate?
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Church_of_Humanity/Reliquary
In particular:
Caspius of Poryatu the Martyr, Murdered by agents of the corrupt Church of Sartan in Ozrat 17 Aug 1012. Recanted the corruption of Sartan, was slain when it was discovered he had accepted the Divine's Light.
The player found it amusing. :P
We frequently do such with those who oppose us in some way. After all, who is to say otherwise? The dead? They cannot refute it. Their murderers? They have motive to lie, assuming they can even speak! Did similar with Balkeese Indirik as well.
We even have:
Saint Saerden, First Martyr of Perdan. Patron of Battle, Paladins, and Victory.
Some of that sound familiar? Yes, we claim the Ibladeshi corrupted one of our holy Saints into their Sartan.
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The player found it amusing. :P
I was quite impressed, whilst being satisfied, as I reveled in my fake accomplishments.
Praise be to Caspius of Poryatu the Martyr!
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It wasn't too bad but then the only warlike one got excommunicated and murdered.
You all assume too much I believe. Lately there has been some dynamic shifting within the Church also due to the influences of the CoI. Maybe I''m kinda responsible for that, who knows?... However Aeneas in this case has seen the CoI crumble (and he blames many things for that) and would be careful to see that happen on FEI. Doesn't mean the Church does not go to war. However due to the delicate context of Arcaea and Cathay (their only possible friends really) not accepting religious powerplay, it is suicide for the Church to just war every "evil" religion as you saw in the Last huge war with Kindara and PoZ.
We'll see how long the church lasts this time. The last time I managed to destroy it by going to war with Arcachon and Arcaea, backed up by Lasanar. When Lasanar fell, so did Sartania and the church, almost then. Hope my chars do better this time for their sake haha.
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Last time you picked Lasanar after the brain drain of most of Lasanar's experienced players leaving for Cathay. Lasanar under Vulpes was a disaster every time he became PM but they kept electing him.