BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Helpline => Topic started by: Velax on March 09, 2011, 06:26:56 PM
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From what I've seen in most battles not involving fortifications, defenders have infantry on the front row which will move toward the attackers during Round 1. Given that, I can't see a marshal setting on the wiki that would allow the attacker's cavalry and infantry to engage the defenders during the same round. Either the infantry hit first and the cavalry the turn after (Infantry Charge), or the cavalry hit first and the infantry the turn after (Cavalry Charge).
For both to hit in the same turn, assuming the defenders move forward in Round 1, I think attacking infantry would need to be set up on the front row and attacking cavalry on the middle row, but there doesn't seem to be a marshal setting for that. Am I missing something?
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There might not be such a setting. However, I think leadership skill factors into which formations you can access.
Also, there doesn't seem to be any easy way to set your archers/MI/SF according to range.
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For both to hit in the same turn, assuming the defenders move forward in Round 1, I think attacking infantry would need to be set up on the front row and attacking cavalry on the middle row, but there doesn't seem to be a marshal setting for that. Am I missing something?
Sometimes the best options not to use any marshal settings whatsoever it certain situations, but instead rely on experience and use custom battle lines etc, as even while have all the marshal commands myself I still find that works best in many situations.
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It's harder to organize custom lines because sometimes you'll have one or two with the wrong settings. With marshal formations, as long as the marshal is capable and active (which should be qualities for selecting a marshal in the first place) then you have units set up good to go. For most battles one or two units out of formation isn't going to be the end of the war, but in close battles, sometimes that can lead to the loss of good units unnecessarily. So it's more like a matter of convenience. Unfortunately it seems like we can't exactly put all the different combinations of settings that exist.
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One of the other qualities required of a good marshal, and indeed perhaps the most important, is not only being able instill an inherent dicipline in his/her army, meaning more often then not nearly every member follows orders to a tee concerning settings etc, but also the ability build up a true sense of brother and sisterhood amoung it's ranks.
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Sometimes there's just no helping it though. For whatever reason the army's in a mess, the members are as much a mess. Sometimes it's no one's fault, but in those times, there's not much anyone can do. I can point out that in Nothoi on BT right now, the army's probably still going :-\ and Reston Vanimedle' is the current marshal. Um...well, regardless, there are lots of monsters and undead.
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One of the other qualities required of a good marshal, and indeed perhaps the most important, is not only being able instill an inherent dicipline in his/her army, meaning more often then not nearly every member follows orders to a tee concerning settings etc, but also the ability build up a true sense of brother and sisterhood amoung it's ranks.
This is the approach I take to Marshaling. There are several different ways to play a Marshal, but I suspect there are only a few paths to playing an effective Marshal. I play it as a technical position. In my case, it involves a great deal of "pencil and paper" work: managing refit schedules, staying on top of stragglers, and singling out for praise those nobles who are actively contributing. I adopted this style primarily as a response to the way that war efforts are "managed" in realms. I've had to develop a style that is largely independent when it comes to management and tactics. Honestly, if I was Marshaling a duchy-based army composed of nobles from a single duchy I would probably play much differently.
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One of the other qualities required of a good marshal, and indeed perhaps the most important, is not only being able instill an inherent dicipline in his/her army, meaning more often then not nearly every member follows orders to a tee concerning settings etc, but also the ability build up a true sense of brother and sisterhood amoung it's ranks.
I had a good thing going with my Dwilight army like that. Giving them praise after important victories, making sure they get enough gold to maintain units, and making sure every noble feels like an equally important part of the war machine are good ways to ensure discipline and obedience. I think the fact that they were all from the same duchy gave them a sense of bonding as well. I had perfect movement 75% of the time, and my army never lost a battle under my command.
Vellos even sang their praise once all the way from Chesney :P
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I firmly agree with all points in the former two postings, as have adhered to those very dictums myself ever since being first promoted to a command rank.
(hehe that was some while ago now and no mistake, and likewise don't think I've ever been out of one, be it either a marshal or vice-marshal, for more then a couple of week sincefirst joined soliferum)
I also belive it matters not just how many or how few units you command, as while I command my realms largest army I do it no different then if had only a couple units under me.
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From what I've seen in most battles not involving fortifications, defenders have infantry on the front row which will move toward the attackers during Round 1. Given that, I can't see a marshal setting on the wiki that would allow the attacker's cavalry and infantry to engage the defenders during the same round. Either the infantry hit first and the cavalry the turn after (Infantry Charge), or the cavalry hit first and the infantry the turn after (Cavalry Charge).
For both to hit in the same turn, assuming the defenders move forward in Round 1, I think attacking infantry would need to be set up on the front row and attacking cavalry on the middle row, but there doesn't seem to be a marshal setting for that. Am I missing something?
Perhaps we could make a feature request for an attacker formation that has infantry front, cavalry middle, archers and MI middle?
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Not sure if this would really work well in the game, but perhaps the Marshal could have a "Formation Builder" that allows him to specify where various unit types should start, what formation they should use, and how they should conduct themselves. If he is successful in "Commanding the Field" the units in his army will conform to his custom formation. Perhaps the Marshal could also save and name a certain number of these custom formations formations for use within his army. Also, it would be cool if the General could build and tweak formations that could then be used by all Marshals under his command. In the end this could result in three kinds of formations, Game Wide Formations, Realm Formations and Army Formations...
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Not sure if this would really work well in the game, but perhaps the Marshal could have a "Formation Builder" that allows him to specify where various unit types should start, what formation they should use, and how they should conduct themselves. If he is successful in "Commanding the Field" the units in his army will conform to his custom formation. Perhaps the Marshal could also save and name a certain number of these custom formations formations for use within his army. Also, it would be cool if the General could build and tweak formations that could then be used by all Marshals under his command. In the end this could result in three kinds of formations, Game Wide Formations, Realm Formations and Army Formations...
That wouldn't be impossible, of course, but it's not a priority at the moment.
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Not sure if this would really work well in the game, but perhaps the Marshal could have a "Formation Builder" that allows him to specify where various unit types should start, what formation they should use, and how they should conduct themselves. If he is successful in "Commanding the Field" the units in his army will conform to his custom formation. Perhaps the Marshal could also save and name a certain number of these custom formations formations for use within his army. Also, it would be cool if the General could build and tweak formations that could then be used by all Marshals under his command. In the end this could result in three kinds of formations, Game Wide Formations, Realm Formations and Army Formations...
While I agree with Anaris it's not something demanding be made a priority, I definitely see the merit of something along those lines being implemented in the future, albit with the odd tweak here and there, ie the "Formation builder" option only available to a marshal with very high leadership, H/P ect.
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While I agree with Anaris it's not something demanding be made a priority, I definitely see the merit of something along those lines being implemented in the future, albit with the odd tweak here and there, ie the "Formation builder" option only available to a marshal with very high leadership, H/P ect.
I like everything about this idea except for the prospect of attaching it to Honor and Prestige. The last thing the game needs is another cool feature restricted on the basis of functional seniority. High leadership is totally fair.
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It should probably be tied to Leadership. It would be a very great feature.
That said, is there any reasoning why we can't use Formations like Archer Opening when on the Defensive?
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It depends what you consider seniority, as while believing should only be available once a marshals reached a certain H/P threshold, in order represent the respect needed of their troops leaders to bring it about, I certainly don't think needs be overly high.
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It depends what you consider seniority, as while believing should only be available once a marshals reached a certain H/P threshold, in order represent the respect needed of their troops leaders to bring it about, I certainly don't think needs be overly high.
Indeed, H/P thresholds are usually not that high, and if you follow an army around for a few campaigns you'll easily satisfy most requirements.
Though in this case, Marshal Formations are already tied to leadership, and we should probably keep it that way, even if to just remember that the leadership skill has *some* use. ;)
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Indeed, H/P thresholds are usually not that high, and if you follow an army around for a few campaigns you'll easily satisfy most requirements.
Though in this case, Marshal Formations are already tied to leadership, and we should probably keep it that way, even if to just remember that the leadership skill has *some* use. ;)
Amen! I think I'm the only person I know who has access to all formations. Leadership should be taught in schools! Leadership = Management potential. 8)
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If this was irc I'd type "/me also has all the options for one of his chars". ;)
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Amen! I think I'm the only person I know who has access to all formations. Leadership should be taught in schools! Leadership = Management potential. 8)
Really? Both my military characters have access to all the formations, and they aren't even particularly old or dedicated to advancing leadership.
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I wonder if in all the available settings there exists at least one that allows staggering of archer lines to optimize range.
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Formation
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Indeed, H/P thresholds are usually not that high, and if you follow an army around for a few campaigns you'll easily satisfy most requirements.
Though in this case, Marshal Formations are already tied to leadership, and we should probably keep it that way, even if to just remember that the leadership skill has *some* use. ;)
I agree it on all counts, as not only is it relatively easy for your char to reach any required H/P thresholds by campaigning etc, but doing so also allows "yourself" gain the RL experience of how best to deploy armies in battle etc.
The most simple and practical solution, and one that could only be argued against by those who wave the equality for all banner, (in other words want every feature available to their chars right from the off) would be to have the custom settings option added as the one a marshal gains after attaining the last of the others.
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I think that it would not necessarily have to be an on/off thing. Perhaps how much can be specified in a custom formation could gradually increase as the required traits increase. For example, it may be possible for an inexperienced Marshal to set starting position in general based on unit type but nothing else. If might be possible for an experienced Marshal to set all possible settings including detailed starting positions (unit type, range, or even specific units).
Also, even if inexperienced Marshals had access to all possible settings in the "Formation Builder," an inexperienced player's formations would likely prove less effective than those designed by an experienced player. Besides, I am sure that history is full of inexperienced military leaders that proved to be prodigies in their field.
Just food for thought!
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Although an inexperienced Marshal has only a very limited amount of "designated" command settings at his/her disposal to start with, just as even the most experienced Marshal did to begin with, they also have the option as Marshal of their army to have it use any custom settings he/she wants simply by ordering it, as that's a big part of what being in commands all about.
On the point of simply giving "official" custom command settings to a marshal early on, even using a sliding scale, I'm dead against it, as not only would it risk unbalancing things, ie a relatively very inexperienced Marshal could have options that almost mimic the advanced commands settings available to time served Marshals, thereby negating the advantage they offer to their army and realm etc, (and likewise sticking in the craw) but being such a potentially powerful option, as overrides a troops leaders own commands, you could end up with the most ludicrous battles ensuing due to their inexperience.
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The only thing that an "experienced" marshal has over a newbie marshal is the Leadership skill. If you train Leadership at the academy, you could easily have full access to all marshal settings for the instant you are appointed as marshal. Which is really the whole point of academy training. So there's no reason to toss the whole idea out the window.
What you can do is tie the implementation of these formations into the leadership skill rating.
* Higher leadership: + chance of success
* Very high leadership: ++ chance of success
* Specifying more options = - chance of success
* Specifying "overrides" for noble units settings (formation, encounter reactions, etc.) = -- chance of failure
Put all this together and calculate a chance to successfully implement a formation. If you fail, the consequences could range from nobles just lining up according to their personal settings, to being +/1 a line, depending on how badly you failed.
For an Epic Fail, when a newbie marshal tries to use a super-complex setting with lots of overrides, you could even assign completely random lines to each individual noble on that side. :o
And you can even tie in the number of available custom formations to the leadership skill. One custom formation stored per 20% skill?
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...but being such a potentially powerful option, as overrides a troops leaders own commands, you could end up with the most ludicrous battles ensuing due to their inexperience.
Also, we don't protect people from their own incompetence. It's the sponsor's job to make sure they appoint marshals who know what they're doing.
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Also, we don't protect people from their own incompetence. It's the sponsor's job to make sure they appoint marshals who know what they're doing.
Quoted for Truth
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The only thing that an "experienced" marshal has over a newbie marshal is the Leadership skill. If you train Leadership at the academy, you could easily have full access to all marshal settings for the instant you are appointed as marshal. Which is really the whole point of academy training. So there's no reason to toss the whole idea out the window.
Surly adding "game mechanics wise" betwixt "newbie marshal" and "is the leadership skill, would have been more accurate, as while you can train "Leadership" par-say at an academy you can only ever really "learn" by experience ;D
Everything else sounds rather interesting to bounce about though, as could end up with some very dire or indeed amusing things happening on an epic fail.
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I do agree with Rob that leadership should stay, but I believe that implementing chance will only make most marshals forgo the Marshal Settings and rely on personal settings, since it'll be more reliable, thus we get back to the current system.
I think that having *more* control is the desired separator, but what constitutes more control is difficult to say, as on one end we have no marshal settings and on the other we have full customization of every type of unit and their settings.
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I think that having *more* control is the desired separator, but what constitutes more control is difficult to say, as on one end we have no marshal settings and on the other we have full customization of every type of unit and their settings.
And somewhere in all of this care has to be taken to avoid turning nobles into travelbots, with no real input or purpose in battle.
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And somewhere in all of this care has to be taken to avoid turning nobles into travelbots, with no real input or purpose in battle.
I'll second that as one of the most important, and indeed enjoyable, roles of a Marshal is actually communicating with this/her troop leaders on a personal basis, be it either while campaigning and attempting keep them becoming a bunch of merry tourists abroad, a rousing speech and explanation of your chosen settings etc before a battle, or else simply keeping them sharp during those damn times when nothing to do but sit around camps all day.
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And somewhere in all of this care has to be taken to avoid turning nobles into travelbots, with no real input or purpose in battle.
I agree %100. I would honestly hate knowing that all the battle fun was being controlled by someone else. I have always liked the whole idea of: The Kings can ask the Duke, the Duke can ask the Region Lord, the Region Lord can ask the Knight but there is no guarantee that any of them will do what was asked. It should, in my opinion be the same with the military chain. In many ways I dislike the idea of Marshal override formations all together. If he wants the troops deployed in a certain way, then he must ask and they must comply. In that sense we already have a powerful formation builder. The marshal tells everyone how to deploy and depends on them to do what is needed.
At the same time I understand the frustration of having a third of the troops under your command using last battles defensive line settings while the rest updated there line settings for the coming attack. It can really suck and there is no way to ensure that even a majority will log in and make the needed adjustments before battles. The Marshal formations help to solve this though it does limit how ones men can be deployed. I figured that if there was going to be a Marshal override, like there is, it should allow flexible creation of creative, new and fun formations.
In the end though, making sure my troops were in order before a coming battle has always been one of the things that kept me logging in and caring. Take that away and how much and the new player really control? At the least, I would love to see an option in the line settings that would let the troop leader decide if he will deploy per the Marshal formation and fall back on his own settings or instead simply deploy per his own settings.
I am not really sure if I would at all mind if all Marshal override formations made a departure from the game...
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There is a careful balance between giving the individual players control, and allowing the marshal to do what they're supposed to do, which includes making sure that the army is prepared and ready for battle. Personally, I think that the system that we have works pretty well.
The majority of the time, the only thing a marshal formation affects is the row in which your troops line up. You have to get to the much more advanced settings before you start affecting things like formation, retreat settings, etc. (From what I've seen, those are rarely used.) And I personally appreciate that there are marshal settings to catch me if I forget to update my settings. I know that I've forgotten to change something, and wound up as the only infantry on Front. And not just once.
So yes, while I agree that characters should not be turned into travel bots, we should also make playing the game easy and friendly for casual players. (How often do you really want to not line up where the marshal wants you to line up? I would think that most of the time people are out of formation, it's an accident and not intentional.) This means a balance between automation of certain things like formations and line settings, while also allowing personal choice with nobles be able to choose their own.
While we may not be tactical military geniuses, and legendary leaders of men, we play characters who are. We shouldn't have to do *everything* ourselves.
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There is a careful balance between giving the individual players control, and allowing the marshal to do what they're supposed to do, which includes making sure that the army is prepared and ready for battle. Personally, I think that the system that we have works pretty well. While we may not be tactical military geniuses, and legendary leaders of men, we play characters who are. We shouldn't have to do *everything* ourselves.
Agreed. I've often thought that moving the unit settings to a more prominent place within the game would go a long way toward ensuring people are regularly checking and updating their settings. When I give (gave) marshal orders, I made sure to include the unit setting key in all orders (ex: 1DL, 3AW). That way, you only need to glance down at the status bar. But to change them should probably only require one click-through, either down in the status bar as a direct link or as dropdown boxes on the Order page itself. Far too many critical items are buried two or three links deep. Thoughts?
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Speaking for myself as a player rather then from the point of view of my marshal/general, and likewise one who not only gets a great deal of enjoyment and satisfaction out of BM personally but also wants others to do similar, I believe the current system concerning orders and command setting etc is already near enough perfect, as while the very limited amount of command settings, and likewise their unsuitability for many situations, can be highly frustrating for a new marshal, and indeed rather much so all the way until reach they've reached their max complement, I nevertheless myself found it not so much as something to hate and bang my head against the wall over, but rather a system that not only encouraged me to use a "more hands on" attitude when setting my armies out before battle, inasmuch as began formulating and using custom setting very early on, but also to build up a personal rapport with, and between, my troop leaders.
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Agreed. I've often thought that moving the unit settings to a more prominent place within the game would go a long way toward ensuring people are regularly checking and updating their settings. When I give (gave) marshal orders, I made sure to include the unit setting key in all orders (ex: 1DL, 3AW). That way, you only need to glance down at the status bar. But to change them should probably only require one click-through, either down in the status bar as a direct link or as dropdown boxes on the Order page itself.
That's a good point. We now have them displayed all the time, it would be interesting if we could get it so you could actually change them from there. Change the "1AL" from just a text field to a set of three drop-downs where you could just change it. I like it.
Far too many critical items are buried two or three links deep. Thoughts?
I tend to agree with this. If you have any more suggestions on how to rearrange things, I'd say start a new thread with some suggestions.
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So yes, while I agree that characters should not be turned into travel bots, we should also make playing the game easy and friendly for casual players. (How often do you really want to not line up where the marshal wants you to line up?
99 times out of 100, you want to be in the Marshal's formation. I personally think that there should be a tick box to say "ignore Marshal formation orders" to handle those very few times when it's otherwise. However, there's a lot of stuff I want to see done before that, tee hee.
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The only thing that an "experienced" marshal has over a newbie marshal is the Leadership skill. If you train Leadership at the academy, you could easily have full access to all marshal settings for the instant you are appointed as marshal. Which is really the whole point of academy training. So there's no reason to toss the whole idea out the window.
What you can do is tie the implementation of these formations into the leadership skill rating.
* Higher leadership: + chance of success
* Very high leadership: ++ chance of success
* Specifying more options = - chance of success
* Specifying "overrides" for noble units settings (formation, encounter reactions, etc.) = -- chance of failure
Put all this together and calculate a chance to successfully implement a formation. If you fail, the consequences could range from nobles just lining up according to their personal settings, to being +/1 a line, depending on how badly you failed.
For an Epic Fail, when a newbie marshal tries to use a super-complex setting with lots of overrides, you could even assign completely random lines to each individual noble on that side. :o
And you can even tie in the number of available custom formations to the leadership skill. One custom formation stored per 20% skill?
I think you're going about this the wrong way. I think that the options within the Formation Builder should have the Leadership requirements. The way you had it sounds reliant on D&D style dice rolls. Here is what I propose:
Leadership and/or H/P unlocks the Formation Builder. Because the Marshal does not always have experience in telling nobles how to precisely deploy their unit (outside of formations), an additional Leadership value will be required (to formulate a new strategy) for each level of sophistication.
Basic formation options such as Infantry, Cav, and Archers being deployed in the Front, Middle, Back, and Rearguard be made available immediately in the Formation Builder, but only in baby steps. Defaulting to what is possible with Infantry Charge, Archer Opening, Fortification Deploy, and Infantry Wall. As leadership improves, or maybe even use of custom formations increases by the Marshal, more options such as having the infantry deploy in Rearguard, and Cav deploy in the front, become available.
Eventually, when the Marshal is able to use some of the very advanced stuff, such as Weakening Skirmish, they will still not be able to change Withdraw settings in the Formation Builder. They will still need to increase their Leadership (or use more custom formations).
Perhaps also limit to how many formations they are able to have or use through the Formation Builder? If someone had 10 custom formations, then ya, units would become travel bots. But if they could only have say, one attack formation and one defence formation, then not really.
What I would like to see though, is be able to have maybe ten custom formations available, but only have one or two "active" to use within a given time frame. Example:
I have Formations named: Slay Those Monsters, Skeleton Explosion, Eat His Horses, and Bite the Dust. I choose to have Slay Those Monsters and Eat His Horses active. I decide that since the other guy doesn't tend to have a lot of cavalry, that I want to be able to use Bite the Dust instead. Well, now I have to wait a week, two weeks, or something in order to actually be able to use it. In the mean time, I still have to issue new line settings to nobles in my army so that I can hopefully mimic that formation.
And since people WILL forget what each setting does, a way to review what is in each formation the marshal has created.
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Better yet--one offensive, one defensive formation. Marshal picks one "starting" formation as a template, and can only change one setting per day (infantry/starting row).
So they can reach a unique formation, but it takes a while to create.
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Perhaps a melding of both ideas would prove a good base to work this up from, as not only be user friendly enough (AKA buffoon proof) if people simply take the time to plan things out, ie at least have an idea what situations/forces might face in the coming days, but also offers a sliding reward for the more experienced a marshal becomes.