BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Crescent on November 26, 2011, 07:53:48 AM
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Just wanted to ask, what is the take on OOC Clans? In the Colonies, I have been in a realm whereby there's 2 group of friends, one in the realm I'm PM and another group in a neighbouring enemy realm. Long story short, those in the realm turn things upside down, refuse to obey orders, basically do whatever they can to make the realm die whilst passing information about unit settings etc to the other side.
I was once involved in the discussions but cut connections with them soon after I realized it involved power-gaming. They simply have their friends vote for them and give stupid reasons to protest against someone they don't like etc and its pissing me off since it totally ruins the spirit of gaming. Needless to say, they'll deny having contact in IC or OOC.
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The wiki sates the rules about clans something like this
Don't use your clan to ruin other people fun.
If you suspect people are using a OOC clan to "win" the game the best advice is report it to the titan and let them use their tools to investigate. Its a hard thing though, it is quite legitimate for a group of noble characters to act in the way you describe, I guess the problem is when they do it for OOC reasons and friendships rather then developing a IG dissident group.
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Yes, I don't have any qualms about people who come in and become friends through in-game correspondence. However, it gets a little obvious when they come in and protest once they are able to and seem to know of things that took place way before their arrival. Without even hearing both sides of the story, they seem bent on simply accusing people they don't side and defend whomever they like, irregardless of what the situation is.
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You could also just ban them for being annoying. Unless they've got your judge in their pocket.
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You could also just ban them for being annoying. Unless they've got your judge in their pocket.
Or ban them for joining your realm, if you're really looking for a reason to ban them (and they somehow aren't annoying).
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This sounds like something for the Titans or the Magistrates. We really can't help you. :)
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passing information about unit settings etc to the other side
You know that most traitors can be banned and hanged, just make sure you never say that you ban them because of OOC clanning.
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Just wanted to ask, what is the take on OOC Clans? In the Colonies, I have been in a realm whereby there's 2 group of friends, one in the realm I'm PM and another group in a neighbouring enemy realm....
Just ban them before they attempt a Clan Take Over of your realm.
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If you think they're clanning and ruining the fun for everyone else, tell them. They might not realise they're ruining everyone else's fun.
If they still don't change, then it's a case for the Magistrates/Titans
If you can find an IC way of getting rid of them, even better because then we can all stay within the spirit of the game and it might even make them participate with the rest of the realm.
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Watch out with accusations... There has been wrath from above for less :D. No proof equals no right of accusation.
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The 'old guard' of Lukon and Oriolton, IC aren't used to having people play the game in ways that threaten their power.
Step back a minute--if all this was IC, would you still be complaining?
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Watch out with accusations... There has been wrath from above for less :D. No proof equals no right of accusation.
You can send the accusation to the Titans with nothing more then suscipions or gut feelings. If you want to vent accusations in game against players, then yes you really should have some proof. Of course you can IC accuse anyone you want of being a traitor as well, you don't need proof to try and implicate a characters.
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Just wanted to ask, what is the take on OOC Clans?
A few things. The first is that if you think something is going on in the game in violation of the Social Contract, make a report to the Titans with a full list of those you suspect and all the reasons why. If they don't agree, no harm done, and if they do, then they'll appreciate being notified.
Second, making accusations in-game or via the Forums without significant evidence is the kind of thing that we don't like to see, because there are often very good IC reasons for things that you just might not see, and OOC accusations often end up like witch-hunts, as it's very hard to disprove them, and it can hurt players (as distinct from characters) regardless of the truth of the situation.
Third, anything that can be handled IC should be handled IC, this is true. Actual OOC clanning often can't be, which is why the rule about it exists, and the Titans should be informed if you have suspicions.
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Thanks for all the replies.
Firstly, it isn't the Old Guard of Lukon/Oritolon but its a group of new nobles, whereby the leader came first and suddenly we're hit with 5-6 other nobles within 2 weeks who seemingly already have a fixed opinion about everything in the realm.
Secondly, banning would be great, except for the fact that my realm has 14 people and is in a war. if I ban 7 people we'll be left with 7 people to 8-9 regions or something like that which is madness, and needless to say we'll get killed real bad in the war. They may not care about the realm, but I cannot do something knowing it will have detrimental effects on my realm.
Thirdly, I've simply left the realm already. Stepped down as Ruler and floated across the continents. Thank you for the suggestions, and I do hope I get to put it in place the next time I meet another OOC Clan. What I do know is that they really screwed up my game.
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The real main defense against OOC clans is to have larger realms.
The new estate system is in parts aimed at making it easier to run realms with lots more players in them. If you have 100 people in a realm, only exceptionally large and dedicated clans can make as much as a dent.
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If you only had 7 people in your realm outside of the OOC clan, most likely you were "dead" already. To complain that 7-8 new people joined the realm and then behaved in a way that didn't benefit it confuses me, as they would not have befitted it if they had never joined in the first place, so where is your loss?
If they simply joined to betray the realm, report to the Titans.
The game is about role playing your characters. if the OOC clan was playing in a way that destroyed your role playing fun, report to the Titans. If it was realistic but unfortunate for you, roll with it.
Finally, if you already quit your realm, then what is your point in later coming here to complain? I think you screwed up your own game by walking out in the middle when you still had a chance at recourse.
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Finally, if you already quit your realm, then what is your point in later coming here to complain? I think you screwed up your own game by walking out in the middle when you still had a chance at recourse.
I didn't read the original post as a complaint, more as a question about how to deal with it in the future. Crescent knows the action (s)he took wasn't the best and needed advice on how to deal with it should it arise again.
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Perhaps. but I read,
"They simply have their friends vote for them and give stupid reasons to protest against someone they don't like etc and its pissing me off since it totally ruins the spirit of gaming. Needless to say, they'll deny having contact in IC or OOC."
as complaining, with qualifying words that say he doesn't care and is only asking.
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Yes I've already left on one character and the other character is on his way out. With only 7 people they are already half a realm. However they'll survive because the enemy attacking them are their friends anyway.
Latest news is that one of them won the elections against one of the most dedicated and longest serving member of the realm. A new noble 147 days in the realm won the elections over a old Guard serving faithfully for 2851 days. Its a gone case there. Not complaining, just giving an update for those who are actually interested. I'm halfway out of that hell-hole though.
And I'm a guy. :D
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A new noble 147 days in the realm won the elections over a old Guard serving faithfully for 2851 days.
New? You call playing 6 months in a realm new? I think your realm had a real problem there.
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You know, just because they are new to the realm doesn't mean that they have to vote for the same old candidate time after time. (And like vonGenf, I hardly think that 150 days in the realm is "new" anymore.) If you didn't want to continually risk your positions in regular elections, then you should be friggin' republic. (Or democracy, or w/e.)
Having said, that I have no idea if these people are a "clan", or whatever. It's practically impossible to tell. After all, they are allowed to play together. And if they all came from the same place before they joined your realm, why wouldn't they form their own political bloc? That part seems pretty realistic to me. And like others have said, if you only have 7 people in your realm, then pretty much *anyone* who comes into your realm with a couple friends can take over. What else do you expect?
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Indirik you're mistaking. I'm not asking for anything but opinions and stances on how to deal with such, and I do believe I've found what I need, from gentle to hardcore, thank you.
6 months is very new compared to the alternative. And their family background doesn't show them meeting. But it quite clearly shows that they have an agenda when they start to protest in unison once they can, 2 weeks or so into the realm.
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Like I said, I don't know if they are a clan or not. Without having been in the realm, and seeing the situation firsthand, all we have to go by is what you give us. And every time you post, you provide new information. So, unless we had a complete message dump from everyone in the realm, we can't know whether they are a clan or not. Or maybe they are just friends playing in the same realm.
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Indirik you're mistaking. I'm not asking for anything but opinions and stances on how to deal with such, and I do believe I've found what I need, from gentle to hardcore, thank you.
6 months is very new compared to the alternative. And their family background doesn't show them meeting. But it quite clearly shows that they have an agenda when they start to protest in unison once they can, 2 weeks or so into the realm.
Crescent,
Let me share a plan I had a few months ago. I planned to switch allegiance with several of my realm-mates to Oriolton, take over the realm through elections, and declare war on Lukon. All that was planned IC, for IC reasons. So the exact thing would have happened anyway without any clanning needed.
That probably doesn't make you feel better, but that's the risk you take when you have monthly or quarterly voting.
Your declaring war on MT bought you a month or two, that's all.
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Latest news is that one of them won the elections against one of the most dedicated and longest serving member of the realm. A new noble 147 days in the realm won the elections over a old Guard serving faithfully for 2851 days.
Serving faithfully who? Probably not those that voted the other candidate.
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Serving faithfully who? Probably not those that voted the other candidate.
Where's the like button when you need one.... :)
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Oritolon has a history of keeping the same old farts in power, and also of uprisings of clans or friends. As others have stated though, when you only have 7 characters left anyways, it's time to look for new blood or accept that your realm will probably die.
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Well...I must say I am not one to care about a realm being ended. As long as its IC... and I have learned over the years that my only defense against OOC things that come up with other people is to not give into it and fight it IC just as if it were IC.
HOWEVER... I will say this...
A quick google search of Oriolton comes up with this (along with lots of cool old spell master history)
Apocalypse Alliance - View topic - Conquering the game ...
apocalypseiscoming.net/f2/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1664&p...
Oct 30, 2011 – Join the realm Oritolon. (further instructions will be PM'ed ingame) ... Join Realm : Oritolon Battle Master game might appear a bit ...
Now when I tried to open the link, it asked for registration...so I cant say what all sort of discussion has taken place there. We will see if they accept my registration or not and then perhaps I will find out.
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Well...I must say I am not one to care about a realm being ended. As long as its IC... and I have learned over the years that my only defense against OOC things that come up with other people is to not give into it and fight it IC just as if it were IC.
HOWEVER... I will say this...
A quick google search of Oriolton comes up with this (along with lots of cool old spell master history)
Apocalypse Alliance - View topic - Conquering the game ...
apocalypseiscoming.net/f2/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1664&p...
Oct 30, 2011 – Join the realm Oritolon. (further instructions will be PM'ed ingame) ... Join Realm : Oritolon Battle Master game might appear a bit ...
Now when I tried to open the link, it asked for registration...so I cant say what all sort of discussion has taken place there. We will see if they accept my registration or not and then perhaps I will find out.
Excellent info Valast, and I'm sure the titans can check up exactly what instructions are being messaged in game.
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Well...I must say I am not one to care about a realm being ended. As long as its IC... and I have learned over the years that my only defense against OOC things that come up with other people is to not give into it and fight it IC just as if it were IC.
HOWEVER... I will say this...
A quick google search of Oriolton comes up with this (along with lots of cool old spell master history)
Apocalypse Alliance - View topic - Conquering the game ...
apocalypseiscoming.net/f2/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1664&p...
Oct 30, 2011 – Join the realm Oritolon. (further instructions will be PM'ed ingame) ... Join Realm : Oritolon Battle Master game might appear a bit ...
Now when I tried to open the link, it asked for registration...so I cant say what all sort of discussion has taken place there. We will see if they accept my registration or not and then perhaps I will find out.
Omg :o I used to know them along with Crescent last time. They are from some game called Utopia. Apocalypse Alliance Utopia can search as well too. The leader is called Khain, there is no doubt... Hear Tom requested him to change his family name from Dragon, he changed to Dragonborn. As we cannot have Dragon in Battlemaster :P
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Omg :o I used to know them along with Crescent last time. They are from some game called Utopia. Apocalypse Alliance Utopia can search as well too. The leader is called Khain, there is no doubt... Hear Tom requested him to change his family name from Dragon, he changed to Dragonborn. As we cannot have Dragon in Battlemaster :P
Interesting, we have a Dragonborn in Pian En Luries, he hasn't really caused any significant trouble. Utopia was one of the first web based games, there are several other games loosely based on it as well, like Visual Utopia. I played it almost 15 years ago, surprised that it still kicks around.
Turns out it is quite fun to google realm names I've found a defunct Anti Pian En Luries, and a forum group called the ShadowClan Dark Moot whom appear to play BM among other games. They seem to share a far bit of OOC information around that forum, might be interesting for people that like to read that sort of stuff in this forum.
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Actually De-Legro, he and 3 others have formed a very troubling and annoying group who like to OOC accuse me of constant OOC-Bashing and other social contract breakages in the end I got peeved off and told them to take it to the Magistrates or the Titans... wasnt he also one of that particular group who came from another realm, the whole group joined very close together and they even said they were a group?
Think I shall investigate and see if they were all from the same Oriolton, especially since he and his cronies are the ones spouting the same nonsense constantly...
Their character histories make for interesting reading as well.
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Interesting, we have a Dragonborn in Pian En Luries, he hasn't really caused any significant trouble. Utopia was one of the first web based games, there are several other games loosely based on it as well, like Visual Utopia. I played it almost 15 years ago, surprised that it still kicks around.
Turns out it is quite fun to google realm names I've found a defunct Anti Pian En Luries, and a forum group called the ShadowClan Dark Moot whom appear to play BM among other games. They seem to share a far bit of OOC information around that forum, might be interesting for people that like to read that sort of stuff in this forum.
Their talk about Dwi gave me shivers...
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Their talk about Dwi gave me shivers...
Did you read some of their old threads about having multiple accounts?
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Did you read some of their old threads about having multiple accounts?
Yes, I saw that after.
A few of them are actually still in D'Hara, though I haven't checked to see if any had admitted to multying in the other thread.
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The only ones I found that admitted to multi accounts also said they had been caught at it.
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Thanks to Ramiel for doing the google cache searches
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:m6-PLLXH3uQJ:apocalypseiscoming.net/f2/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D16%26t%3D1664%26p%3D16118+site:apocalypseiscoming.net+apocalypseiscoming.net+battlemaster&cd=19&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3vVdwz5yuL4J:apocalypseiscoming.net/f2/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D188%26t%3D1475%26start%3D0+site:apocalypseiscoming.net+apocalypseiscoming.net+battlemaster&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
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So we called them as Utopia Clan? They bring bad name to Utopia game then ???
I not surprise he caused much controversy in BM islandwide. It seems they learnt their skills when they first started out in Oritolon. Protests government members out of posts, rebellions, planning OOC, pretty much everything. Khain has been warned before regarding his playing conduct, he told me once ::)
Back to the topic on hand. How do we handle OOC Clans? Do we talk to Magistrate? How can we acquire evidence without even involving ourselves, sort of undercover work to reveal their forums, their discussions?
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So we called them as Utopia Clan? They bring bad name to Utopia game then ???
I not surprise he caused much controversy in BM islandwide. It seems they learnt their skills when they first started out in Oritolon. Protests government members out of posts, rebellions, planning OOC, pretty much everything. Khain has been warned before regarding his playing conduct, he told me once ::)
Back to the topic on hand. How do we handle OOC Clans? Do we talk to Magistrate? How can we acquire evidence without even involving ourselves, sort of undercover work to reveal their forums, their discussions?
It's hard to prove (as we've seen earlier on in this thread). If you have a suspicion, it needs to be referred to the Titans/Magistrates. But as said earlier, don't make an accusation unless you have solid proof. In this case, it would have to be something like a message in-game for people to look at some off-site forums such as the AA ones De-Legro linked to. Or the off-site posts themselves.
So I guess the question is now we've seen posts suggesting that members of the AA "come and quell the internal bickering of Oritolon", and the fact that they honestly do not give a damn about what Tom thinks (see De-Legro's second link) - does this constitute enough evidence that the Magistrates can open a case? Or are these cache searches too old to be of any real use now?
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I am sure there are many many groups out there in the game already. There is no way to find them and no need. Look at Oritolon now. It has survived the attempt on it...because not only would they have to take over the realm but they would have to deal with the political issues involved. All it takes is one loyalist to let allied rulers know info on the takeover and the new administration is faced with crumbling relations.
Heck, at one point I was about to bring Lukon against Oritolon to purge it and re-establish its government....
No ooc clan can ever take a realm in BM and keep it... unless after doing so they are able to adapt to the BM environment. The conquer everything mentality of clan gamers does not mesh with ourr Battlemaster. True the realm they attack first may not survive... but we as core players must accept it.
Everything that happens in the game should help to develop your character and its personality.
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In the first link, Dragon merely advertises Battlemaster as being a great game to play--good for him! We need more players! I have recommended BM myself to others, and put it in my Slashdot signature--how else will we get more players?
The second post is troubling, but this matter with Khain Dragonborn was settled almost a year ago--note that the forum thread is dated December 2010.
Can anyone find any information about the current clan invasion?
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I don't think it was ever settle egamma. I'm not too sure what the Titans told him, but he came in with 2 of his friends. One of them broke away and went to another continent, the other stuck with him and they both moved to a neighbouring realm. In their time they managed to get the emails of other contacts and my obvious guess is that they've been keeping in touch out of the game.
The current clan invasion is simply another member finding his OOC friends, and both groups sort of merged together. Hopefully this can be solved IC, but I do believe it may get a little ugly. I do foresee OOC bans coming into place, that is if we're able to knock their clan off the throne first.
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I was ruler of Oritolon for three or four months until I paused for IRL reasons a couple of weeks ago. I think Crescent's jumping at shadows. That Old Guard leader Crescent talks about who failed I guess is Spearhead? The man who who when last on the throne did and said almost nothing for several months. His only role and intention was to keep Lukon sweet. He has been as quiet since he left the throne as he was on it.
Crescent succeeded Spearhead and equally practised a quiet leadership. When he did speak out, it tended to provoke and alienate some of the most powerful people in the realm. When I made it to the throne with Malice, the Old Guard faction had been shown to have no answers and Crescent had only succeeded in alienating more people by making threats to depose sitting Dukes. The way Crescent reacted at the time, it felt like he already felt a OOC clan was working against him and really seemed to despise me. Virtually every noble in the realm had got a personal letter from me though, Alowca had turned against Crescent wholesale and was behind me as a Lord of Alowca and I articulated a compelling policy, even if I never really implemented it!
Alas, although I got power the old guard still held many positions of power and influence, yet without involving themselves at all in the affairs of the realm any more. So I was frustrated in much of what I wanted to do. Meanwhile, Crescent continued to alienate people with his ways even after I dragged him back into government due to our nobility crisis. Before I paused, there was already a growing backlash that was causing me problems. Three or four people had come to me privately asking me to act against Crescent and they weren't just new players. Likewise, we were getting hammered in a war that, although I'd started and evangelised it, Crescent was getting the flak for being the abrasive, uncompromising general.
Basically, Oritolon was already heading down a road towards civil discord with or without a clan and new players and I'd grown tired of the leadership anyway. A few people in Oritolon know that I basically ran for no other reason than there was no-one else to takeover during the last couple of elections. I'd come to the throne with this grand idea that I could refresh and vitalise Oritolon and left it with the idea that actually, Oritolon needed fundamental reform of a drastic kind.
Oritolon has/had a lot of unresolved problems that were always going to cause trouble eventually. Sadly for Crescent, not only did he needlessly antagonise a lot of new players, but his past actions as ruler meant other powerful people had an agenda against him irrespective of anything else. Forget Khain, this is just the usual Oritolon civil disorder.
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You weren't a part of the OOC Clan, Malice and I respect you for that. However the bulk of your backing basically were all from the same group. If you recall the sudden surge in the increase of our nobles a few months back and the one-mindedness of them you would have been able to tell something was amiss already. It started way before you came to Oritolon, back when Antonine and Hvrek were still around. It only grew from there, albeit quietly, and you just stumbled across it. Put simply any candidate who ran against me at that point of time would have their vote, so long as its not me.
And its hard to get things done when nobody listened and followed. Punishments like fines garnered protests, and without punishments they simply kept to one side. We can't do bans because of our lack of nobles anyway. But I agree with your point that Oritolon needs a change in the fundamentals, but I still stand by my reasoning that this current crisis is led by a group of OOC friends.
To everyone else, I'm sorry that this post went a little off-track to a debate on the current issue in Oritolon. Lets keep it back to the topic about OOC Clans. Besides banishment and OOC bans and having many members etc would there be any other plausible solution to counter this? If anyone wishes to talk about politics and such of Oritolon please feel free to PM me.
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I don't care about OOC clans, as long as they don't ban everyone who isn't in their clan from the realm. If people who know each other from elsewhere want to play together, let them.
From the information I have--that posted here, as well as from playing Gellin in the Colonies since 2007--Oriolton is long overdue for a shakeup. They're the most boring realm in the Colonies--always the ally of Lukon, sheltered by Lukon from any attack from elsewhere--definitely not good for player retention.
Your IC clan is the one proposing using OOC ban against an "OOC clan", out of fear that the OOC clan would do the same thing to you if given the chance. How are you any better than they are? Why is the "IC" clan of "Old Guard" any better than the "OOC" clan of newcomers? Why should we side with you, just simply because you've been here longer?
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Because IC is allowed, some would say encourage, whereas OOC ones are forbidden and some would say cheating as they are explicitly against the rules.
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Because IC is allowed, some would say encourage, whereas OOC ones are forbidden and some would say cheating as they are explicitly against the rules.
It's not in the Social Contract: http://battlemaster.org/socialcontract.php (http://battlemaster.org/socialcontract.php)
As for the Rules and Policies, (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies) I would say that the Old Guard should consider these:
Always give newcomers the benefit of the doubt.
Do not publicly accuse anyone of cheating, abuses or violations of this contract without proof or evidence.
Try to resolve issues with other players before reporting them to the Titans.
While the clan should be made aware of this one:
Don't use your clan to ruin other peoples' fun.
Basically, I see 3 rules that Crescent could possibly be in violation of, and only 1 rule that this clan could possibly be in violation of.
I'm not a Magistrate, and I'm not saying that 3 outweighs 1, but it's definitely something we should keep in mind.
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You weren't a part of the OOC Clan, Malice and I respect you for that. However the bulk of your backing basically were all from the same group. If you recall the sudden surge in the increase of our nobles a few months back and the one-mindedness of them you would have been able to tell something was amiss already. It started way before you came to Oritolon, back when Antonine and Hvrek were still around. It only grew from there, albeit quietly, and you just stumbled across it. Put simply any candidate who ran against me at that point of time would have their vote, so long as its not me.
And its hard to get things done when nobody listened and followed. Punishments like fines garnered protests, and without punishments they simply kept to one side. We can't do bans because of our lack of nobles anyway. But I agree with your point that Oritolon needs a change in the fundamentals, but I still stand by my reasoning that this current crisis is led by a group of OOC friends.
I don't think you realise what a vicious, cold bastard Crescent appears to most people. Take Alexander, for example. Within a few weeks of arrival he was elected a lord unopposed because, frankly, Oritolon is an inactive realm. That was about the same time I kicked a hornets nest about a potential secession of Alowca. You made a number of heinous threats towards Pyran, Me and especially Alexander simply for his being a young noble you didn't trust. Meanwhile, I was leaning hard on him to stand firm with his fellow Alowcans and against his better judgement, he did. He's your enemy because you're so abrasive and hostile to new players/characters.
You can say the same about Orlen, who appears to be a returning player and who you essentially halted from being elected to lordship in Alowca by kicking up a fuss about this youngster getting elected. Later a member of the Simmons family turns up, an older player who has hitherto not been involved in the Colonies and you were laying into him for the actions of his family in other continents. Meanwhile as General you were being particularly controlling and stand-offish and managed to further alienate Alexander who stepped down as Marshal in protest.
Let me be clear, in my last weeks in power I was the one thing standing between you and protests and mass unrest. My vouching for Crescent halted the putative efforts to have you ejected as General and I was lobbied hard on changing that stance. It was only the younger nobles trust in me that was maintaining the fragile balance in Oritolon and when I unexpectedly paused, of course it was going to blow up.
The clan argument doesn't stand up. I mean sure, Alexander admitted he was playing with a friend but he came out with that publicly very early on and stated why they weren't both getting involved in things, to the extent that the other player actually left so as not to be abusive. You don't often find friends who play together publicly enquiring as to the best way they can play together without breaking any rules. As to my backing, you'd be surprised. I couldn't have gained election with just the support of Alowca or the newer players. I simply hit a nerve and had the support of long established members of the realm. Some of your very own council members, actually, and I largely maintained that broad coalition of support all the way til my pausing.
As for people knowing things about ancient history in Oritolon, that realm has so many skeletons in its closet it's ridiculous. From several different sources I've been regaled with accounts of the Colonial Brethren and their role in Oritolon, their history, present day activities. Meanwhile one of your enemies, I can assure you, has been quite loquacious in disseminating past history - particularly to do with Hvrek, Antonine and your role in that period - to your enemies in Oritolon. A man who was there. I know about all of that and the last time I had played seriously in the south of the Colonies pre-dated the introduction of religion to BattleMaster!
I don't know exactly what has happened since I have paused, but Crescent was already in a rocky position inside Oritolon and our young nobles had already been alienated. What's more, the old guard in Oritolon are silent and disengaged. They're automatons. The newer nobles have actually brought new life to Oritolon, spoken up and taken part. There's nothing wrong with that. But I really think everything you describe can be easily explained without reference to cliques and clans.
The old guard abdicated responsibility and influence with their silence. As Oritolon began to lose older nobles, like Ash etc. to inactivity, not to mention three lords being deleted for multi-ing, new blood was always going to come into power and influence and upset the status quo. As you say, Oritolon is reduced now to 14 nobles is it? That's her barest bones. As the foremost arrogant, abrasive defender of the old order, of course Crescent was going to be in a tight spot no matter what.
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As to OOC cliques generally, to be fair I came to this game as part of an OOC clique. The subtext to the political machinations in Giblot 2005/6 is that in mid 2004 players from a game called Sorren came into Giblot and took it over as their personal stomping ground. Thanatos was elected without making a campaign. Gotchaz was appointed Duke of Giblot three days after emmigrating there (back when in a Republic, a Dukedom was worth 20 votes in PM elections). This is stuff I found out after I arrived in BattleMaster later on myself, as these guys ratcheted up recruiting in their quest to destroy Outer Tilog, essentially.
I was essentially part of that takeover for a while, but the problem with coming to a game like BattleMaster as part of a clique is that only one person can sit in a shiny Ducal seat or comfy throne. I wasn't part of the elite group who'd first come from Sorren either. Just a middling Sorren player who'd stumbled in later. Maybe if I'd been more closely attached I'd have acted differently, but in the end I was the one who ended up making common cause with those who'd been displaced by the clique and overcame them in rebellion, gloriously scotching Giblot/Lukon plans to TO Outer Tilog for about a whole RL year as well. It was beautiful, albeit enabled by recruiting an RL friend or two of my own after finding several months in a row that I'd always be a vote or two off unseating Thanatos and disrupting the clique. Though I still think that was a necessary evil for a greater good.
Of course, because of being such a duplicitous double-dealing fella in Giblot back then, the Duchy of Giblot had been promised to a member of my little clique but I handed it to a neutral after the rebellion so I became everyone's enemy and was hounded out of Giblot not too long after. The whole thing had been played out IC, at any rate. My character was evil in an OT-lite vein and a power-hungry fella and I was doing all sorts of ridiculous things in RP back then. Makes me squeamish to think of some of the things on the Giblot wiki from those days! Giblot was actually amazing for RP and such before the rebellion. The point, anyway, is that even though I came into the game as an awful rule breaker, the game won out in the end and I like to believe that happens to everybody.
When Khain and his clique were discovered and outed in Oritolon last year, I could sympathise because they came in with the ethos of their old game and were trying to impose things from the outside in an arbitrary manner. What they needed was a kicking, and they got it, and now afaik those people play alongside alot of ex-Alowcans in Minas Thalion and the rest of the Colonies folk who oppose Lukon/Oritolon generally. They seem to have learned something and they seem to be playing more in the spirit of the game as it's meant to be played now and that's fine, surely, even if they still all play together?
We've all been victims of cliques of course and it can be annoying. I remember the awkward moment in Bara'Khur when Vanimedle's lot started a rebellion against me that I only just scraped through. By the looks of a rogue OOC comment or two, they were all school kids playing together. They got a kicking but eventually returned to Bara'Khur, played more in the spirit of things and achieved their ends in a fair manner.
Yes, OOC cliques are annoying and yes, when they abuse power they should rightly be tackled one way or another but if they start playing in the spirit of the game and not impeding others fun/progress, what can you do? I do think what egamma is getting at is pertinent because then they just become an IC clique along the same lines as any other. Just like, say, in Carelia there is a strong Ashlantean community still even though the Ash Sea Islands has been dead for years because of a combination of surviving older characters and players who continue to enjoy each others company.
I think the cliques BattleMaster probably has more to worry about these days, especially given the reduced number of players, is an old boys network of older players who give out positions for no better reason than good past experiences with a player and what have you. I've had quite a few offers of this position or that position simply on joining a realm just on that basis, and I haven't always turned those offers down. OOC clans might stand out more, but it works both ways.
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As to OOC cliques generally, to be fair I came to this game as part of an OOC clique. The subtext to the political machinations in Giblot 2005/6 is that in mid 2004 players from a game called Sorren came into Giblot and took it over as their personal stomping ground. Thanatos was elected without making a campaign. Gotchaz was appointed Duke of Giblot three days after emmigrating there (back when in a Republic, a Dukedom was worth 20 votes in PM elections). This is stuff I found out after I arrived in BattleMaster later on myself, as these guys ratcheted up recruiting in their quest to destroy Outer Tilog, essentially.
I was essentially part of that takeover for a while, but the problem with coming to a game like BattleMaster as part of a clique is that only one person can sit in a shiny Ducal seat or comfy throne. I wasn't part of the elite group who'd first come from Sorren either. Just a middling Sorren player who'd stumbled in later. Maybe if I'd been more closely attached I'd have acted differently, but in the end I was the one who ended up making common cause with those who'd been displaced by the clique and overcame them in rebellion, gloriously scotching Giblot/Lukon plans to TO Outer Tilog for about a whole RL year as well. It was beautiful, albeit enabled by recruiting an RL friend or two of my own after finding several months in a row that I'd always be a vote or two off unseating Thanatos and disrupting the clique. Though I still think that was a necessary evil for a greater good.
Of course, because of being such a duplicitous double-dealing fella in Giblot back then, the Duchy of Giblot had been promised to a member of my little clique but I handed it to a neutral after the rebellion so I became everyone's enemy and was hounded out of Giblot not too long after. The whole thing had been played out IC, at any rate. My character was evil in an OT-lite vein and a power-hungry fella and I was doing all sorts of ridiculous things in RP back then. Makes me squeamish to think of some of the things on the Giblot wiki from those days! Giblot was actually amazing for RP and such before the rebellion. The point, anyway, is that even though I came into the game as an awful rule breaker, the game won out in the end and I like to believe that happens to everybody.
When Khain and his clique were discovered and outed in Oritolon last year, I could sympathise because they came in with the ethos of their old game and were trying to impose things from the outside in an arbitrary manner. What they needed was a kicking, and they got it, and now afaik those people play alongside alot of ex-Alowcans in Minas Thalion and the rest of the Colonies folk who oppose Lukon/Oritolon generally. They seem to have learned something and they seem to be playing more in the spirit of the game as it's meant to be played now and that's fine, surely, even if they still all play together?
We've all been victims of cliques of course and it can be annoying. I remember the awkward moment in Bara'Khur when Vanimedle's lot started a rebellion against me that I only just scraped through. By the looks of a rogue OOC comment or two, they were all school kids playing together. They got a kicking but eventually returned to Bara'Khur, played more in the spirit of things and achieved their ends in a fair manner.
Yes, OOC cliques are annoying and yes, when they abuse power they should rightly be tackled one way or another but if they start playing in the spirit of the game and not impeding others fun/progress, what can you do? I do think what egamma is getting at is pertinent because then they just become an IC clique along the same lines as any other. Just like, say, in Carelia there is a strong Ashlantean community still even though the Ash Sea Islands has been dead for years because of a combination of surviving older characters and players who continue to enjoy each others company.
I think the cliques BattleMaster probably has more to worry about these days, especially given the reduced number of players, is an old boys network of older players who give out positions for no better reason than good past experiences with a player and what have you. I've had quite a few offers of this position or that position simply on joining a realm just on that basis, and I haven't always turned those offers down. OOC clans might stand out more, but it works both ways.
The main difference between a IC clan, or even an acceptable OOC clan is the nature of the characters. When people rail against OOC clans they are generally referring to the ones that might as well be multies. The characters in these groups are never going to disagree, or at least will only pretend to disagree in order to hide their actions. The chances of anyone breaking away from the group is almost 0. They exist to achieve a goal, and there will be no dissension between them in achieving it, like I said for all practical purposes they might as well be a single player with his multies.
A group that happen to know each other in RL who enjoy playing together in the same realm are non necessarily a true OOC. Even if they support each other on some matters, potentially important matters they are not a OOC clan. That is why it is so hard to really detect them.
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@Revan/Malice.
You made good points there. I am Ash by the way.
Maybe Crescent plays his character like how Crescent character is meant to be played.
Think UT, Unreal Tournament. It is meant to be played.
He plays Crescent as a vicious bastard character to a lot of players characters.
I do not think some of us here understand how Republic system really work.
We have get ourselves used to other Government Systems where we do not tolerate dissenting views from other
characters.
When Crescent as Prime Minister asked me(Ash as Judge) to ban Duke Pyran of Alowca city for being straight forward
and Lord Malice of Irdalni, I am thinking no way on earth this is happening. When Spearhead agreed to this insane
proposal, I am thunder shocked looking at my Battlemaster screen.
I am a Judge and a Neutral one at that. Lord Malice proposal in the council about Alowca duchy seceding
somehow spark the dead and buried council under Prime Minister Crescent into life.
When most of the council members rejected the proposal, Crescent being a hard person he was, he kept pestering
in the form of "if you dont like it, leave the realm."
Oritolon is already a small realm with such big size of lands to maintain.
To be honest, Crescent lost the Prime Minister election to Malice because most of us here voted for Malice.
And you want Ash to ban Pyran because of his loud mouth and straight forward opinion in council?
He sparked the council to life, man.
Just because Crescent as PM gave so many bad marks to Duke Pyran but Pyran does not stepped down as you like,
this does not mean you need take your anger thus far.
Malice won the PM election because he had vision to move us forward.
Which impressed many of the people in the realm.
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@Crescent
Do not be a sore poor loser by blaming OOC clan as an excuse.
Khain and his OOC Utopia Clan already long gone from Oritolon.
They are now controlling Minas Thalion realm, so just let them play in the game as they should be and as the
Battlemaster is meant to be played.
Sure they got advantage of talking offline, outside the game.
But do they have good plan?
How can Khain got overthrown when he was Oritolon Prime Minister?
Because all of us united although we not in any clan outside the game.
It is simple really, no need to scratch your head and reply something you
dont understand with "Oh, he must be OOC Clan".
I can even show your OOC message where you send to everyone
after you see Spearhead, the old noble lost the Prime Minister election to Rhiannon, the new noble.
So who being emotional here after your favorite candidate lost the election?
Or when your character Crescent lost the election to Malice?
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@Crescent
Things pretty much changed after Malice paused. Spearhead, the old noble lost the Prime Minister election
to Rhiannon, a new upcoming noble. Now here, why does you think we have OOC clan that push this new noble
to power? Let me tell you something, though I know you wont be able to differentiate this forum OOC obtained
information against IC obtained information.
Even your new noble Crimson Strika know something information that only Crescent should know. Even Crescent know something information that Cadelius Strika only should know.
Not even a RolePlay or introduction letter how your characters know all these although they are supposed to be different characters. Until some of us pointed out IG, only does you reply in angry tone.
Because most of us voted against Spearhead. We do not like the old way anymore, simply put.
When old noble Spearhead come to power as Prime Minister the previous time, he only acted as sweet to Lukon.
So that Lukon not attack Oritolon because of Khain the Mad Prime Minister and his clannie issue.
Should I continue more?
Spearhead is not really active, his quiet actions and did not move the realm forward.
We are being stuck in this circle of internal instability if we keep to the old way.
Sometime I really think Republic system does not suit Oritolon anymore.
Even Ash does not truly have support of everyone in the realm.
When Ash was Prime Minister, and he stepped down, changing the Republic Government System of Oritolon to
Monarchy, most of the characters do not agree with his action.
So there you have it, Oritolon refused to change itself.
Unless you being a sore loser after losing the Prime Minister election or does not have your favorite
candidate, the old noble Spearhead won the election, I suggest you keep this IG rather than OOC.
I have message that show you grumble OOC in the realm, which is not nice of me to show everyone here.
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The main difference between a IC clan, or even an acceptable OOC clan is the nature of the characters. When people rail against OOC clans they are generally referring to the ones that might as well be multies. The characters in these groups are never going to disagree, or at least will only pretend to disagree in order to hide their actions. The chances of anyone breaking away from the group is almost 0. They exist to achieve a goal, and there will be no dissension between them in achieving it, like I said for all practical purposes they might as well be a single player with his multies.
A group that happen to know each other in RL who enjoy playing together in the same realm are non necessarily a true OOC. Even if they support each other on some matters, potentially important matters they are not a OOC clan. That is why it is so hard to really detect them.
Crescent worry too much about that last time Khain OOC Utopia clannie shadow. He thought there are many clannie people left behind in Oritolon. We understand his good intention. He sees them everywhere, even when he sleeps...
As a matter of fact, I have Ash keeping an eye on someone in the realm. He or she could be clannie. But anyway most likely is spy. Now we do have somebody acting behind enemy lines in enemy realm in Battlemaster, do we not?
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You think nobles would just accept a Duke talking about leaving a realm? Even for a republic this could be construed as treason. The arguments about things like such a big realm with no few nobles are sort of valid, they can certainly be IC considerations, but to be frank most the time I see this brought up they are nothing but OOC concerns of the player, not the character.
Now the bit about things only certain of his characters should "know" You characters are family, not some isolated entity. I prefer not to have my characters share too much info, but if you have a "close" family or other reasons, it makes total sense for characters to share info. Especially true if the characters are playing on the same island or realm. It would make sense that one of my characters might warn his cousin and provide political background about a realm he is joining for instance.
"Spearhead is not really active, his quiet actions and did not move the realm forward."
Please be careful with statements like this, it would appear you are mixing activity and results. Punishing or affecting a character for lack of results is on thing, when you start talking about "activity" you start entering the region of Inalienable Rights.
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You think nobles would just accept a Duke talking about leaving a realm? Even for a republic this could be construed as treason. The arguments about things like such a big realm with no few nobles are sort of valid, they can certainly be IC considerations, but to be frank most the time I see this brought up they are nothing but OOC concerns of the player, not the character.
Now the bit about things only certain of his characters should "know" You characters are family, not some isolated entity. I prefer not to have my characters share too much info, but if you have a "close" family or other reasons, it makes total sense for characters to share info. Especially true if the characters are playing on the same island or realm. It would make sense that one of my characters might warn his cousin and provide political background about a realm he is joining for instance.
"Spearhead is not really active, his quiet actions and did not move the realm forward."
Please be careful with statements like this, it would appear you are mixing activity and results. Punishing or affecting a character for lack of results is on thing, when you start talking about "activity" you start entering the region of Inalienable Rights.
No, it is not Duke talking about seceding. It is Lord Malice of Irdalni region. He stated in council if council not agree, he would tone down. But then Crescent being a hard ass Prime Minister that he was, keeping pushing him and many other lords.
Yes, understand. Will be careful. Many will agree he does not say anything in the realm, in other better word put, he does not have vision to move us forward as a realm. Which is why we do not vote for him, visionless leader.
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No, it is not Duke talking about seceding. It is Lord Malice of Irdalni region. He stated in council if council not agree, he would tone down. But then Crescent being a hard ass Prime Minister that he was, keeping pushing him and many other lords.
Yes, understand. Will be careful. Many will agree he does not say anything in the realm, in other better word put, he does not have vision to move us forward as a realm. Which is why we do not vote for him, visionless leader.
Much better way of phrasing it. That is a failure as a ruler, not a failure as a player:)
So Malice was going to have his region swap allegiance to another realm, unless the council voted him down? Really that is still suspect sort of behaviour, his allegiance should be to his Duke at any rate. But many many realms would start to think the guy can't be trusted and maybe he should be removed.
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Maybe Crescent plays his character like how Crescent character is meant to be played.
Think UT, Unreal Tournament. It is meant to be played.
He plays Crescent as a vicious bastard character to a lot of players characters.
I actually quite enjoyed the relationship between Malice and Crescent. Reminded me a bit of the love/hate relationship Malice Elder enjoyed with Moses in ASI. I think Crescent's a well played character, it's just he'd backed himself into a corner by the end.
You think nobles would just accept a Duke talking about leaving a realm? Even for a republic this could be construed as treason. The arguments about things like such a big realm with no few nobles are sort of valid, they can certainly be IC considerations, but to be frank most the time I see this brought up they are nothing but OOC concerns of the player, not the character.
Heh, we almost lost the city of Alowca due to lack of maintenance. Which seemed silly to me because we'd been at peace for months and months and had nothing going on. Plus I was trying to inject a bit of life into Oritolon by fostering Alowca's duchy identity a bit, so as a thoughtful Lord in Alowca I mooted a partition of the realm that would make both duchies stronger, seems as no-one in Oritolon Duchy seemed to care and the Duke and I had been left alone to sort things out.
Probably if Crescent had played it better, he could've had me thrown out. But his immediate reaction was over-reaction, which spurred my Duke to come out on my side and then turned into a thoroughly enjoyable and raucous argument. The reason I ended up running for Prime Minister is that I'd essentially committed the cardinal sin that had done for Khain and so many others before me, which was to essentially say our precious Republic was broken somehow.
Not going for Prime Minister would probably have meant being cast aside or hounded out as some sort of rebel alongside my Duke, so I went for broke and recast my sedition as a means of attempting to revive and awaken Oritolon from her dangerous slumber. Somehow, it worked :-P
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HAHA Revan! I always wondered if you were Revan from Sorren. Ahhh how I loath that game.
I found this game back in um... 2003... Started playing and loved it! So I started spreading the word over in Sorren to see if any of my friends there wanted to play. Well...only a couple did. But eventually we pressured a few more into trying it out... Although by then I was King of Lukon. Some would come in and play with me in Lukon, some would come in and stand against me...like good ole Revan here or Spencer.
About half of the people who came over ended up enjoying the game to have played it for years now. So the question then is...Am I the founder of a OOC BM clan? Well...I suppose so. We would meet in Yahoo chat and talk it up (before BM IRC) but we always ALWAYS invited everyone in the realm to come and hang out with us in those chats...and those chats became just a lot of fun without any game aspects at all.
We never tried to steal any realms via treachery... at least not unless it was IC deserved... but if we are tossing labels about, toss one this way too.
Oh and Revan... Your welcome for me making Thanatos, Spencer, and Gotchaz spread the word. ;D
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As long as OOC clans play along with people I don't see any problem. I mean it is only nature to invite friends to play a good game. Just shunning others in the realm because they are not sharing your group's view causes problems.
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As long as OOC clans play along with people I don't see any problem. I mean it is only nature to invite friends to play a good game. Just shunning others in the realm because they are not sharing your group's view causes problems.
Exactly. We need a word other then OOC clan to describe the exclusive power gamming clans that we are referring to.
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HAHA Revan! I always wondered if you were Revan from Sorren. Ahhh how I loath that game.
I found this game back in um... 2003... Started playing and loved it! So I started spreading the word over in Sorren to see if any of my friends there wanted to play. Well...only a couple did. But eventually we pressured a few more into trying it out... Although by then I was King of Lukon. Some would come in and play with me in Lukon, some would come in and stand against me...like good ole Revan here or Spencer.
About half of the people who came over ended up enjoying the game to have played it for years now. So the question then is...Am I the founder of a OOC BM clan? Well...I suppose so. We would meet in Yahoo chat and talk it up (before BM IRC) but we always ALWAYS invited everyone in the realm to come and hang out with us in those chats...and those chats became just a lot of fun without any game aspects at all.
We never tried to steal any realms via treachery... at least not unless it was IC deserved... but if we are tossing labels about, toss one this way too.
Oh and Revan... Your welcome for me making Thanatos, Spencer, and Gotchaz spread the word. ;D
Hah, never knew you were part of the Sorren crew! Can't remember if I was using this moniker or another one back then tbh with you. I think I'd stopped playing Sorren really by the time I came to BM? Don't know. Detinu's the one who rolled with you Valhallan folk anyway and he told me about it. I used to know him IRL when he lived in England. What I remember from the Sorren forum thread I saw was that BattleMaster had no resets so some folk had been building up in Giblot for a while, unlike in Sorren where the game was rapidly going down the tube, heh.
Kudos, kudos for spreading the word like. It's not every day you stumble across a game that'll keep you occupied for a good seven years! :-D
And yeah, I had to laugh when I ended up becoming Ruler in Oritolon and essentially friends with a few of my old nemeses of years gone by inside Lukon. It still feels odd to be working with, rather than against Lukonite interests even now ;-)
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should call them WTP world takeover party!
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I myself came in with my brother and a few friends. My brother has since quit and I have 0 idea where all my friends went. I only know that there's one of them still in Darka or Caligus last I checked. We came into the same realm, we hung out for a bit, learnt the game mechanics, then split. Having your friends come in and play, I have no qualms against. If they join the realm, find out more about the game and the realm and then when the situation arises where they have to choose a side, say in a rebellion, its up to them which side to choose. If they all choose the same side, so be it.
What I cannot agree with is when they come in with the sole purpose of controlling a realm through one way or another. When they come in with an agenda. Then it would pretty much screw up the game for most of the other players who genuinely wish to play the game since they won't have a say any longer.
Personally, I enjoyed the relationship between Crescent and Malice. Malice had his views, as did Crescent, but Crescent is the most hardened character of my 3. Crescent is meant to be a blunt but objective man. I wouldn't call him a bastard though. If you want soft-spoken, go to CE in the Atamara. I'm sure many people can vouch for Cadelius as being a soft-spoken man. I actually intended Crescent to be played somewhat like Herumor. And I believe it would have turned out great, if only he was in a Monarchy with a bigger noble base. I think Crescent may be scheduled for deletion soon, though it would be a waste. He did win the biggest tournament prize money in BM history after all, a SF tourney in CE worth 3k odd gold.
And to Ketchum, well I have nothing to say. I've always thought you were a friendly guy and that you would let me know if you felt anything. But you were quiet all this while so I thought you were fine with it. Didn't know you were hiding so much hate underneath. And I'm not bringing up pointless accusations of OOC Clans my friend. You were in that convo too at one point of time, I'm sure you'd remember. As to whether or not it persisted after we left, that is something we won't know, but I wouldn't discount that possibility. Also, I do hope you don't hate me as a person, but rather hate Crescent, since its how Crescent should have been played, so you can stop with the personal attacks here. :P
Oh and I do believe Spearhead is many times better than Rhiannon. His reputation precedes him so I wouldn't be so quick to denounce him. This is just my personal opinion of course.
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Exactly. We need a word other then OOC clan to describe the exclusive power gamming clans that we are referring to.
Most USA gaming clans call them cliques (I find the yanks to be particularily paranoid when it comes to Clans and their fear of Cliques)
I joined a USA based one after my UK based one died (and is still dying) the one I joined DID break apart because of the cliques in the Rift Division and the High Command, I supported my friend who spoke out against the cliques and high command basically trashed him. Ended up with the WoW Division, the STO Division, the WoT Division and a few of the rifters and some of our friends just broke off and formed a new guild because of the clique basically taking over and ruining it for everyone else.
Whats weird is that in the world of the Gaming Clans its very much more like BM with its realms that it can be funny!
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Exactly. We need a word other then OOC clan to describe the exclusive power gamming clans that we are referring to.
Yes, indeed we need a word other than OOC clan. We need a clear definition on what is OOC and what is not.
@Crescent
Just speaking about your character Crescent. Nothing against you, just your OOC outburst is something uncalled for, as you did not give any evidence to back it up, other than random shooting people using Crescent character, then follow by Crimson. Sometime I am wondering if you play Crescent as hard character, why is Crimson also same personality like Crescent? If indeed like what you say, different playing style, characteristic for different characters you played ??? Well, this are all your characters, I cant comment much. I just provide feedback to you whether you like it or not.
IG, my character Ash will remain pretty much Neutral with your characters no matter what happen OOC. Better let you know here before you get the wrong idea ;)
It is not much hate but you are ruining everyone play with your everyday outburst, man. You should get the hint when Ash as neutral Judge refused to address your outburst. I rather have Ash focus on moving forward than bend backward everyday just to hear you keep complain, as either Crescent or Crimson. With Crescent no longer around in realm, now is Crimson takeover the complainer role in the realm :(
We all want the best for the realm, just we disagree on the method involved in improving the realm. You have your own idea, I have my own idea. Do you realize sometime your Crescent personality has been transferred to Crimson, your newly family member in the realm? I am not questioning your playing style, but there is a point when enough is enough. Why everyday complaining rather than sitting down and finding solution?
Spearhead lost the election, you say OOC. Why use OOC as the excuse not to help the realm? Do you realize you sound like sore loser to some of us when you say OOC after lost the election? Unless you prefer to play your character this way, then I have no comment.
Why Malice able to bounce back from his disaster secede Alowca duchy proposal in council to become our Prime Minister later on? In fact, you are basically saying about most of us in the realm: Malice, Pyran, Alexander, Orlen, Actrial to name a few. You are focusing too much on the difference, than what we have in common: We want the best for the realm :)
I give you a good example. I am sure you remember Alstar, the Lord of Grentzen region well. The moment he arrived at Oritolon, you are pretty much unhappy with him due to his family member conflict with your other character on other island. You even have Crescent run against Alstar during Grentzen lord election although you lost the election. Not sure if you do research and find out why Crescent lost in the first place or not. When Ash as Grentzen knight ask Alstar who has become Grentzen Lord to join the religion to stabilize the region, Alstar refused to join. Simply put, whatever Crescent was part of, Alstar refused to be part of. Rather than my character Ash focus on the difference, we focus on what we have in common. This is what I meant by focus :D
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should call them WTP world takeover party!
This is beginning to sound "Pinky and The Brain". Every night they plot to takeover the world. Failed as usual :P
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What ever you call it (WTP LOL - reminds me...in Lukon we are a department of TtKDCA.... things the king doesent care about...or something like that, cant remember because I dont care)...
Point is you can not stop people joining the game and bringing friends from other games...and they are going to work together some times. But they will never get far if they cheat. So send info to the Titans so investigations can begin, and then just fight against it IC. That is all we can do.
To be honest, I would love for another group or two to join up... boost the player base for a bit then the ones who remain always end up loving the game and playing it well. :)