BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BattleMaster Expansions => Topic started by: Tom on January 13, 2012, 08:40:15 AM
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The e-book "Beyond the Blight" isn't selling well. To be honest, sales are so far below my expectations, that I'm wondering if something is broken or what's going on.
Please help me find out what's going on by answering this short poll. It takes less than 30 seconds.
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Haven't bought it yet because I'm waiting until I'll actually have time to read it.
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When I saw that there was an e-book, I was honestly disappointed there wasn't an actual physical book I could buy instead--this was actually the first thing I looked for. Call me old-fashioned, but I like reading to be with an actual book. That and it looks cool on the shelf, and then people can wonder what it is, and pick it up and read it, and ask questions, and I can recruit them :D
That and I don't really own an e-reader. I'm sure my cell is large enough with it's 4.3 inch (10.92 cm) screen, and I could read it on my computer but... Still like books to be actual books.
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^exactly what he said :)
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To even get a modest production run of a physical book would likely cost Tom $2-5k, all upfront. This would not be with any distribution mind you, that is just the average cost of what they call vanity publishers. He would then either need to find a distribution group willing to take him on, or would have to do it all himself, have us put the money into paypal, work out postage cost himself and send it all off. It would be nice, but unless there is a service out there that I'm unaware of, its just not practical. Of course there might well be some new services, I haven't looked into publishing since I helped a friend self publish a book on meditation a few years ago.
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personally it doesn't catch my interest too well, but for those claiming they don't have an e-reader, there is software out there that you can use for free for e-books you've purchased.
http://calibre-ebook.com/download_windows is the one I use, but others include Lexcycle Stanza, coolreader, etc. Some will support ebooks with DRM, some will not.
Hope this helps improve things :)
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Oh, I know this. I've gather about all the same information from the various webcomics I read, and their occasional posts about how much it actually costs to run so many. Which is why a lot of those same webcomics do preorders, to find out how many people are actually interested in getting it. Or, they simply ask. Generally, people will say whether or not they are interested or not. True, not everyone who says they'll buy something will buy it, but on the flipside, some will.
And if it's 2-5k up front, well, set the prices accordingly. I once paid $39 for the signed hardcover of a $15 paperback because I really liked the webcomic. And it was 72 pages long. Albeit, full color, but still point stands. I've played BM for a lot longer than it took me to read that webcomic.
Not to mention, with physical books, you can charge extra for random things, like getting so-and-so's signature in the book, or you can number so many of them, or say "I'm only signing the first 50", or whatever creative thing you come up with.
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I have not bought the book (yet) as I do not have an e-reader (and do not plan to buy one in the near to medium future). Reading about the software emulating an e-book reader did decide the issue for me - will download that and buy the e-book later today.
I would suggest adding a link to downloadable e-book reader software on the sale/notification page.
Am looking forward to the book!
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Oh, I know this. I've gather about all the same information from the various webcomics I read, and their occasional posts about how much it actually costs to run so many. Which is why a lot of those same webcomics do preorders, to find out how many people are actually interested in getting it. Or, they simply ask. Generally, people will say whether or not they are interested or not. True, not everyone who says they'll buy something will buy it, but on the flipside, some will.
And if it's 2-5k up front, well, set the prices accordingly. I once paid $39 for the signed hardcover of a $15 paperback because I really liked the webcomic. And it was 72 pages long. Albeit, full color, but still point stands. I've played BM for a lot longer than it took me to read that webcomic.
Not to mention, with physical books, you can charge extra for random things, like getting so-and-so's signature in the book, or you can number so many of them, or say "I'm only signing the first 50", or whatever creative thing you come up with.
The difference is, since it is a web comic you already KNOW you will like it, you already know how you value the content. With Toms offering you are taking a bit of a gamble on just what the value of the content will end up being. So we are left with Tom needing to spend time establishing his story telling credentials just so he can take a shot a publishing a series of short stories? Guys that do web comics tend to dedicate hours upon hours a week to get things up and running, for months or years before publishing a collection is a practical reality.
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I'm waiting for the iTunes release. Simply because I have a gift voucher there I'd like to use. :)
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The difference is, since it is a web comic you already KNOW you will like it, you already know how you value the content. With Toms offering you are taking a bit of a gamble on just what the value of the content will end up being. So we are left with Tom needing to spend time establishing his story telling credentials just so he can take a shot a publishing a series of short stories? Guys that do web comics tend to dedicate hours upon hours a week to get things up and running, for months or years before publishing a collection is a practical reality.
How do you know people won't buy it? In the last 30 days people donated € 152. That's not much, but it's something. And no, I'm not saying spend that. I'm saying that at the minimum there are people who probably wouldn't mind buying a book to support the game. I know I've donated before, and rather than a title that lasts for a bit and an extra drone, I'd actually have a physical, tangible object. That'd be awesometastical. Even better if there was a signed copy (yes, I'd prolly splurge and buy that instead of the regular one).
You could always just ask people if they'd like it. There are ~400 active daily players of BM (pulled from BM stats), another ~300 on top of that that consistently log in atleast every few days. That's ~700 people you can ask whether or not they'd like something. You could even ask them how much they'd expect to pay for something.
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How do you know people won't buy it? In the last 30 days people donated € 152. That's not much, but it's something. And no, I'm not saying spend that. I'm saying that at the minimum there are people who probably wouldn't mind buying a book to support the game. I know I've donated before, and rather than a title that lasts for a bit and an extra drone, I'd actually have a physical, tangible object. That'd be awesometastical. Even better if there was a signed copy (yes, I'd prolly splurge and buy that instead of the regular one).
You could always just ask people if they'd like it. There are ~400 active daily players of BM (pulled from BM stats), another ~300 on top of that that consistently log in atleast every few days. That's ~700 people you can ask whether or not they'd like something. You could even ask them how much they'd expect to pay for something.
If people aren't willing to spend less then $10 on the digital version and count it as a donation, the chances that a substantial amount of player base would pay more to get the physical version is unlikely. Sure there will be some, but enough to make it worth Toms time and effort?
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Why not just ask?
I'm not saying it's likely, I'm just saying, there's no harm is asking.
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Why not just ask?
I'm not saying it's likely, I'm just saying, there's no harm is asking.
Because asking would imply that Tom has an interesting in doing it, which he may not.
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The way I see it (Which is totally just a personal opinion that matters nothing, but hey, you asked for me to explain in Other) is that this is paying for information.
I understand that it might not actually provide any real advantage to people who read the book. But, the opposition I have is not the actual contents or the actual consequences, but rather the perception.
As far as I was ever concerned, BM was a game where I could get everything anyone else could get without paying. I just needed to have the smarts, the willpower, and to be in the right place at the right time. Donating would only give another character, but even that was balanced in the limits placed on characters per continent anyway.
But a book, a potential OOC aid that would, in fact, mean that those who pay receive an advantage over those who either do not or cannot pay? Again, don't go on about how this point isn't true. I'm well aware that this might not have been Tom's intent. I am also aware that the stories might not have any material that is actually helpful for this Invasion. But the perception remains that it has weight in the current Invasion. If this was written after the 5th was over, and it was absolutely certain that there would be no further invasions, or at least, that the Blight would not factor into future invasions, then there would be no perception that the book is a potential OOC advantage given to those who want to pay for it.
I joined BM originally because I wanted to play a free online competitive game where your own skills, actions, and words, made the difference, not how much you could pay. And now that there's a book called "Beyond the Blight" when there is Blight all around in-game on BT, then, regardless of what is actually true, there is a compelling gut feeling that doesn't sit well with me.
Yeah, it's unfair. But I'm just explaining a reason I have (other than just "I'm cheap").
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Can we move the discussion to a seperate topic, please?
I am really interested in feedback first and foremost. People might be too intimidated to post their short reasons if they see a huge discussion.
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The way I see it (Which is totally just a personal opinion that matters nothing, but hey, you asked for me to explain in Other) is that this is paying for information.
Thanks, that was very valuable to me.
Be assured that the book contains flavour material and some background information on what's going on inside the Blight, but none of that is relevant towards surviving the 5th invasion. You can - and are welcome to do so - consider all the material IC knowledge if your character can explain how he got those letters, reports, etc. - and that is why I've published it now and not after the invasion. First, it was finished now and I didn't want it gathering dust and two you can if you want incorporate it into the current game. But that only gives you stories and atmosphere, it doesn't give you strategically important clues.(*)
(*) unless "Daimons are evil" is something that for some reason is news to your character.
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I don't have a credit card and at least Amazon doesn't seem to accept Paypal / iDEAL or anything like that. I'm pretty busy IRL right now though, so I haven't properly looked yet at the possibilities. But if I can find some way to buy it without using a credit card, I'll go for it :) I'll just have to look into after next week, as then I'll be done with things.
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lulu.com accepts paypal.
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OK I so I picked I don't have an e-reader before I read the comments that you can download one for a PC. But I have to say I would prefer the idea of a real physical book. Yeah I understand the impracticalities of it, but I just like the physical feel of a book. A signed copy is also an awesome idea. The it could go next to my signed Robert Rankin books.
That being said I think a book is an awesome idea and I might even bite the bullet, download teh e-reader and buy the book.
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lulu.com accepts paypal.
Sweet. I'll look into lulu.com then :)
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Two reasons, the first is that I already maxed out my card for this month buying lab equipment I needed.
The second is that I don't really have a lot to judge the quality of this book on. I know Tom's ability as a game designer, but that doesn't lend much credence to his ability as an author. The main trouble is that there is no clear and obvious way to form an opinion on his writing without buying the book. From skimming the forum announcement I found that there were some free chapters floating around in the wiki? Why not link those? Why not put up a page for the first few stories, hell even one if it's good enough, to give the people an example?
I put up a free E-book a month or so ago. It was a collection of previous pieces and fragments, including a few short stories, that I had earlier posted on my writing blog. They were slightly better edited, and some had drawings of my own making to accompany them.
Now, my blog tracks between 70 to 200 readers every month, depending on how active I am, so I expected at the very least around 30 downloads. At the VERY LEAST. But after leaving the post announcing the book for about two weeks, I only had 15 downloads. I gave up trying to get folks to download it, and just got back to writing as per the usual, letting a few new posts knock the announcement off the front page (keeping a link to the post on the side of the blog). Then an unexpected thing happened: after a few weeks off the front page, downloads had more than tripled for the Ebook.
This was because new readers (and old ones who needed reminding) stumbled upon the blog, were impressed by the writing (English is a third language for me, but in my native tongue, I am truly very talented) and noticed the ever so pitiful tiny link on the side. Now, of course, this is was a free product, but still, interest tripled once people knew what they were in for.
So yeah, free samples. That's my suggestion here. Let us know what we're buying
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So yeah, free samples. That's my suggestion here. Let us know what we're buying
You can read the prologue and the first page of the first story right on amazon, it's part of the "look inside" feature.
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I would love to support in any way (time, effort, abilities, etc.) but cash. :(
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You can read the prologue and the first page of the first story right on amazon, it's part of the "look inside" feature.
Yes, but how many people remember/know of this, or even get to the Amazon page? I still say a link for a sample should be right up there with the main link on the game page, or in the official wiki page. Humans are lazy and lethargic creatures, unless you peak their interest right away.
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I think you left off a choice--I actually purchased it! It helped a lot that I had some Amazon credit already, that I'd gotten for free.
I think you should also make it clear that all you need to read the digital Amazon copy is your web browser, you don't need a Kindle or any special software.
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Payday is next friday. Although I also have no e-reader and most likely will never get one, prefer a good solid book.
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The truth is... these books are not easy to sell at first. You do have a good group of us here who share an interest in your creation (Game, book, story, etc) but it will still take time to get sales going.
I am sure you have information and second hand stories of other people who have done books so I will not write my own second hand tale...but know that its not a big sell right out of the gate.
Will I get the book? Perhaps. The economy blows... Family and Work must come first... Inheritance Cycle book 4 came out just before Christmas... Skyrim is draining our player base energy and time...
Lastly... Until I saw today's message... I thought you had started April fools day early.
One more thing. Remember that books are art. Continue to promote it but do not judge your work based on sales.
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I would love to support in any way (time, effort, abilities, etc.) but cash. :(
It's not a question of support - that's what donations are for. I would've earned more money in less time flipping burgers at McD.
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I am also a bigger fan of a book that I can hold in my hands compared to a e-book. But as I am a fan of the background story I will most likely buy a copy one day.
Why not at this time? That awnser is very simple. It's januari, the month that is always accompanied by a lack of funds on my bank account. (might have something to do with the holidays and stuff like that) Next month, if it is still available by then, I will buy it for sure. Good reason to see if my smart phone works as a e-reader.
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I have too many books first to read.
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I have downloaded the reader and mean to buy the book as soon as I have figured out how to proceed afterwards.
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Haven't bought it yet because I'm waiting until I'll actually have time to read it.
Same for me, actually -- I'm planning to buy the book within the month or so, just haven't bought it yet.
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A page count on the wiki would be nice as it'll let people more easily decide if the item seems like a good value to them.
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A page count on the wiki would be nice as it'll let people more easily decide if the item seems like a good value to them.
You mean like this?
The total content in Beyond the Blight is about 12,000 words, as a paperback book it would be about 50 pages, page count for e-readers differs depending on device and text-size - on the iPad, the iBook version comes to 55 pages in portrait, 99 pages in landscape.
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Hmm. I seem to have missed a spot check ;D
I'd say $6 is a little steep for only 50 pages of content. At 12,000 words it's a novelette.
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I sooo wanted to get the book, but currently i have no way of reading it since i do not have reader.
I would have wanted a real book to have it on my bookshelf.
Will it work on PSP?
PS:
Money is not problem!
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I sooo wanted to get the book, but currently i have no way of reading it since i do not have reader.
I would have wanted a real book to have it on my bookshelf.
Will it work on PSP?
PS:
Money is not problem!
If you have a web browser (and since you're here, you do ;D ), you can read the amazon version. That's how I read mine--and it even synced up my place in the book between the two computers I read it on.
I will say that I wish it was longer. Any chance of additional content, Tom?
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My own reason, and then a few responses that should help people:
1) I've never spent enough time in BT to really know much about the invasions. I always seem to land there right after the invasions finish, and even then, for no great length of time. In a small(ish) niche community like ours, your readership potential goes down dramatically when it's focused exclusively (and I don't see how it couldn't have been) on one of the multiple continents. Simply put, non-BT players will have much less interest. I may still end up getting it for a good read about a world I enjoy, but that's what's stopped me so far.
2) egamma is right. Amazon has Kindle-for-PC as a free download, so anyone can easily have a e-reader.
3) CreateSpace does an admirable job at Print on Demand books. Back when I was producing pen&paper RPGs, this is who we used. For a 50 page perfect bound, you could fairly easily make $1.25-$3, depending on distribution method (and of course list price could drive it up more) without any out of pocket printing expenses.
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https://www.createspace.com/
Looks interesting.
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I plan on purchasing it when I have some time to sit down and read some.
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2) egamma is right. Amazon has Kindle-for-PC as a free download, so anyone can easily have a e-reader.
You are not getting it. It's even easier. No install:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/ev6ukz.png)
Not the most exciting page of the book, this is in the appendix.
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Actually, for those who don't know, Barnes and Noble has a free nook app for PC, Macs, ipad, iphone, and android.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/u/free-nook-apps/379002321/
And you can get the epub version it supports from Lulu. The only thing holding me back is that I don't have a Lulu account and would rather get it through B&N if possible, but that's a rather thin wall holding me back. If it's going to be a while, I'll probably get the Lulu version in the next day or so.
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https://www.createspace.com/
Looks interesting.
You realize Lulu(which Tom used for the ebook) offers pretty much the same service? On-demand prints of books.
Both of these still have a bit of cost involved since you need to order a test copy of the book for approval etc. Also time issues since you need to rework the layout from the ebook version a bit and other stuff like that.
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I mostly play BM to make my own stories more than hear those of other people, and until recently I'd never played on Beluaterra. These two things combine to make the price more than I'm currently interested in paying, particularly since I still have a huge body of free (or very, very cheap) literature to work through on my Kindle.
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I do not like E books until it comes out in paper format I will not get it.
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You realize Lulu(which Tom used for the ebook) offers pretty much the same service? On-demand prints of books.
Both of these still have a bit of cost involved since you need to order a test copy of the book for approval etc. Also time issues since you need to rework the layout from the ebook version a bit and other stuff like that.
Still, I think this would sell a few more copies, and since it's on Lulu already...
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I haven't bought this just because I think it would have been such a fantastic Idea to allow people to write short stories about their characters during this exact period, and send them for submission and inclusion into the book.
I love to read, I love history, this would be a top notch sell, but I think a lot more people would be interested in buying stuff that not only has this history, but also has short stories of different characters that live on beluaterra. Either stories of things that are happening now, or stories of things that happened in other invasions.
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I haven't bought this just because I think it would have been such a fantastic Idea to allow people to write short stories about their characters during this exact period, and send them for submission and inclusion into the book.
I love to read, I love history, this would be a top notch sell, but I think a lot more people would be interested in buying stuff that not only has this history, but also has short stories of different characters that live on beluaterra. Either stories of things that are happening now, or stories of things that happened in other invasions.
Um, that is what it is. Many of its parts are RP's that Tom wrote for the current invasion.
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(Maybe people are buying books because Tom is not popular enough 8))
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not interested in blight not interested in beluterra not interested in dwilight
i dont play there
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not interested in blight not interested in beluterra not interested in dwilight
i dont play there
What does the book have to do with Dwilight?
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For me it is a simple matter of interest. Since I havent played on BT since maybe the first invasion I have barely any idea what the blight is or what is even going on on the continent right now. I honestly thought the most recent invasion was already over.
If I were in the thick of it, it might be a different story, but since I'm not it kind of falls off my radar.
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I haven't had any characters on Beluaterra except a three-week old Adventurer, so the Blight and the daimons, etc don't have much significance for me.
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What does the book have to do with Dwilight?
thought someone mentioned it, so what just remove that from my sentence doesn't change anything
how about not interested in daimons not interested in invasions
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Not interested in an e-books and I hate reading books or something in more then 2-3 page format from monitor.
To me e-books are a thing that will start killing books. I dreamed of having a great library, or at least a shelf or two full of books i read and liked.
So not really a product for me.
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I haven't bought this just because I think it would have been such a fantastic Idea to allow people to write short stories about their characters during this exact period, and send them for submission and inclusion into the book.
That is actually a thought of mine as a follow-up project. But it would need to move enough copies to make the effort worth it. Putting it all together into an e-book is still work and will take hours of my time.
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I'm not a fan of reading large blocks of text on a screen, really hurts my eyes (inevitable question answer: I take breaks when reading large roleplays). As for e-readers, they do help my eyes but I don't like them - there's just something about them that I don't like, much prefer having a book with me instead of an e-reader. I accept that because of this I'll probably never get to read Tom's stories because of the cost of producing paper versions.
Same reasons why I haven't read LilWolf's book, even though I'd love to :(
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I prefer books as well, that is why I printed the e-book.
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The best writing I've ever seen on BM was during a period from around 2006 to 2007 in the Far East when, for whatever reason, there were a lot of medieval roleplayers around. Lasanar, Ethiala, Nighthelm, SoC, and early Cathay. They dug the feudal system and intrigue and politics in a way that a lot of players today seem to find boring or secondary. I would've spent a few bucks to see that arranged in an ebook. This was when we wrote things like the RP Primer and the wiki entry on Oaths os Fealty. Not everybody agreed with this stuff but those who didn't had alternatives and it was discussed a lot because there was a lot of RP going on.
For better or worse, most of those players moved on. I spoke with about a half-dozen of them during and afterwards and their consensus was that BM itself was forcing them into playing a certain way through vehicles like peasants kicking out lords or Too Much Peace (though TMP wasn't a big problem then). I first heard the term 'PeasantMaster' around this time.
I bring this up not to re-make their point, because I think they already made it with their departure, but to identify one thing that I witnessed that is responsible for the reduction in RP (particularly in good RP). The retention rate isn't very good. Not every realm on every continent has always had much RP, but usually half the realms I played in back then did. Today, none of them do. Some of them have interesting stuff going on and are still fun (for me) but none of them have stories like they used to.
I'd pick up Beyond the Blight and read through it if I saw it in a store (since I haven't played much on BT to know what things are like there) but I wouldn't pay to read what passes for the RP scene today.
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I prefer books as well, that is why I printed the e-book.
How?
I tried to print it, and got only black pages. What viewer are you using?
...Sorry blank (white) pages...
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I prefer books as well, that is why I printed the e-book.
I'm actually fairly concerned as to why I failed to realise that things I see on my monitor can be printed and made into lovely paper form...
Perhaps once life settles down, I'll get round to reading this then.
The best writing I've ever seen on BM was during a period from around 2006 to 2007 in the Far East when, for whatever reason, there were a lot of medieval roleplayers around. [...] I would've spent a few bucks to see that arranged in an ebook.
Agreed. I'd gladly contribute to a book like that, perhaps diary excerpts of my character (Poison ShadowStalker / Veleno Stalker [name change]) from around the time of important FEI events. Whilst I wouldn't put her as an important person, she brought Adgharinism to the mainlands and was part of Lasanar's Council during the period mentioned until Nighthelm fell. Perhaps the players of Conan, Galiard, Gul'Dan, Jenred, Milan, Vulpes and various other people from the time could also do something similar? If not to make it into an ebook, then at least into something to share as part of a "History of the Far East" piece.
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Perhaps the players of Conan, Galiard, Gul'Dan, Jenred, Milan, Vulpes and various other people from the time could also do something similar? If not to make it into an ebook, then at least into something to share as part of a "History of the Far East" piece.
But... But... That was so long ago! :'( That was actually when I started playing... No collection of stories would be complete without some about Valius. I think the player still has a Far East character. It's been forever since I've spoken with him though. Or maybe he's in the thread here, and I'm twice the idiot. :P Gul'Dan's player quit, I believe, but I could probably get in touch with him and Thraymn's player if I had to.
Such a collection would probably have to run up through the fall of Batesaor. Does that sound about right?
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Haven't bought it yet because I'm waiting until I'll actually have time to read it.
That pretty much sums it up. Also no time to buy, I only came here because the message said it would only take 30 seconds to fill out.
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You realize Lulu(which Tom used for the ebook) offers pretty much the same service? On-demand prints of books.
Both of these still have a bit of cost involved since you need to order a test copy of the book for approval etc. Also time issues since you need to rework the layout from the ebook version a bit and other stuff like that.
I'm aware. At least as of the time that we were doing our print runs, CreateSpace was leaps and bounds more profitable for us. It seems they've upped their own base cost per book, so maybe they're more even now. CS does offer automatic Amazon listing. Not sure about lulu.
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Just don't have the cash to spend on it at the moment. Maybe in a couple of weeks.