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BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: Tom on January 26, 2012, 10:20:12 AM

Title: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 26, 2012, 10:20:12 AM
We are currently doing a total overhaul of trade. Feedback from many players summed up as "the old system is way too complicated and bothersome". While we're at it, we will also replace warehouses with granaries. A granary is simply a building you can construct just like any other building (scouts guild, smiths, etc.) so this simplifies things because it's one interface and not two.


The design goals are:

From this comes the following current design:
Every region lord (or his steward) can create Market Offers. These are deals of the "selling/buying X bushels for Y gold" kind. However, to simplify things, they are now all-or-nothing deals. So if someone is selling 500 bushels, but you only need 400 - tough luck. Buy the 500 or look for a different deal.

Region lords, stewards and traders can all access the "new" Marketplace. Actually, this is the old market place, the one you can build in your region and many regions (cities, townslands, etc. - can't be build anywhere) already have one.

When you are at a market place (or in your own region), you can access market offers from the nearby regions. Traders have a further "reach". So if you are a region lord and in desperate need of food - travel around to market places and you can find something. Or make a trader do it.

When you accept an offer, the food is delivered.


And that's it.

Right now, the system is a bit rough, and all trades are instant. We will later replace that with caravans being sent out.

Here's a screenshot of what the new market place screen will look like. This is for a trader characters, non-traders will have a lower trading distance.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9638874/NewTrade.png)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: D`Este on January 26, 2012, 10:36:43 AM
What will be the reach? Same as with the caravan system that we have currently? Also, in order to trade food you need to build a building first?

This also ignores an important part of the current problem and that is that it still requires on a regular basis time from both the region lord that is selling and the lord that is buying. It will still require the banker poking the lords time after time to post up an offer. With other words, besides that no caravan is sent out and a building is required, I see no real changes.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on January 26, 2012, 11:24:09 AM
What will be the reach? Same as with the caravan system that we have currently? Also, in order to trade food you need to build a building first?

This also ignores an important part of the current problem and that is that it still requires on a regular basis time from both the region lord that is selling and the lord that is buying. It will still require the banker poking the lords time after time to post up an offer. With other words, besides that no caravan is sent out and a building is required, I see no real changes.

The Market Place is not required. So long as you are in your region you can access the market features. The Market place will help facilitate trade as it allows any lord ( of the realm? not sure about lords from other realms) to access the trade system in that region. So a good network of market places will enable Lords to have access to the trade system without travelling to their region.

From Toms description I'm not sure if the new system still has travel times for the food. I read it as instant delivery, with the local range of the offers "simulating" logistics. An important thing for those currently sending out carvans to buy food though is, the food won't be gone by time your caravans arrive.

This system also displays the offers in a much clearer manner, which should reduce the need to have the Banker constantly watching sell/buy orders

Hopefully this change will also help people move away from the idea that Bankers need to micromanage food in the realm. In my opinion since the Bankers lost their ability to move food around, we have been stuck with a mindset of still trying to get them to fill that role, when they lack effective abilities to do so.

Bankers should not have to approach Lords. Dukes get a similar food report for their regions. I've always assumed that this is because the Lords owe a oath to the Duke, which if we look at the real world would generally involve food supply. Dukes should be ensuring their Lords are meeting their duties in this regard. As a banker if I noticed something odd in a region, I would approach the Duke, not the lord. I see Bankers having some role in facilitating food movement between Duchies, and more importantly food movement between realms.

Besides, so long as there is the ability to set a automatic offer system, similar to auto caravans we reduce the need for Lords to manage orders very often.



Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: D`Este on January 26, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
Quote
The Market Place is not required. So long as you are in your region you can access the market features. The Market place will help facilitate trade as it allows any lord ( of the realm? not sure about lords from other realms) to access the trade system in that region. So a good network of market places will enable Lords to have access to the trade system without travelling to their region.

I don't see how this would make things simpler. So unless someone takes the time to organise the construction of warehouses all across the realm, lords will be unable to follow the army the entire time as they would need to travel to either their region or to a region with a warehouse. Also, what about armies in enemy realms, how could lords give orders there, or does the entire food movement need to be planned out before the army heads out?

Quote
From Toms description I'm not sure if the new system still has travel times for the food. I read it as instant delivery, with the local range of the offers "simulating" logistics. An important thing for those currently sending out caravans to buy food though is, the food won't be gone by time your caravans arrive.

True.

Quote
This system also displays the offers in a much clearer manner, which should reduce the need to have the Banker constantly watching sell/buy orders

Still someone has to watch the buy and sell orders to make sure lords post their food for sale, this won't change as how it's done at this moment.

Quote
Bankers should not have to approach Lords. Dukes get a similar food report for their regions. I've always assumed that this is because the Lords owe a oath to the Duke, which if we look at the real world would generally involve food supply. Dukes should be ensuring their Lords are meeting their duties in this regard. As a banker if I noticed something odd in a region, I would approach the Duke, not the lord. I see Bankers having some role in facilitating food movement between Duchies, and more importantly food movement between realms.

Alright, either a banker or duke needs to poke the lords, it still requires the attention of one to talk to lords about it.

Quote
Besides, so long as there is the ability to set a automatic offer system, similar to auto caravans we reduce the need for Lords to manage orders very often.

For the moment Tom doesn't want to add any automatic features, just a simple system to start with. At least that he said via mail.


Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: vonGenf on January 26, 2012, 11:55:31 AM
I'm not sure I understand the role of the trader correctly. I can see how a region Lord may want to become a trader to make his region a trade hub, and possibly profit from it. But how exactly will non-Lord traders help? Will they just be able see the offers and report them?

What about caravan paraphernalia?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 26, 2012, 12:01:20 PM
The main purpose of this change is simplification - both for the players and for the coders. The current system is a mess, code-wise, and that's why it is so buggy, intransparent and just horrible.

The new one is a ton easier. Just looking at how simple the new trading page is while offering more functionality, I am quite happy already.


I'm not sure I understand the role of the trader correctly. I can see how a region Lord may want to become a trader to make his region a trade hub, and possibly profit from it. But how exactly will non-Lord traders help? Will they just be able see the offers and report them?

What about caravan paraphernalia?

Lord + Trader will be a powerful combination. But traders do not have to be lords, they can work as "brokers" of deals and make a nice profit without ever having to worry about details such as where to store the food.

The caravan paraphernalia will most likely go away. Otherwise we'll never get people away from the mindset of the trader as a travelling salesman.

Frankly, that's a commoners job. We may be adding infiltrator and trader commoner classes in the future, though.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on January 26, 2012, 12:04:54 PM
I don't see how this would make things simpler. So unless someone takes the time to organise the construction of warehouses all across the realm, lords will be unable to follow the army the entire time as they would need to travel to either their region or to a region with a warehouse. Also, what about armies in enemy realms, how could lords give orders there, or does the entire food movement need to be planned out before the army heads out?

True.

Still someone has to watch the buy and sell orders to make sure lords post their food for sale, this won't change as how it's done at this moment.

Alright, either a banker or duke needs to poke the lords, it still requires the attention of one to talk to lords about it.

For the moment Tom doesn't want to add any automatic features, just a simple system to start with. At least that he said via mail.

I'm not keen on the restrictions to accessing the market system either. However I understand why they are there. My concern is that on the islands that have daily harvest, without some sort of automatic system we will possibly put a lot of pressure on Lords or Stewards to be in a position to update the orders.

 Co-ordinating the building of Market Places would be no different to co-ordinating the various infrastructure we already do.

If you need to constantly poke the Lords to set food, you appointed the wrong nobles to the position. Sure there might not have been anyone better, welcome to the hassles we all face when the wrong person is doing the wrong job.

I'm not sure I understand the role of the trader correctly. I can see how a region Lord may want to become a trader to make his region a trade hub, and possibly profit from it. But how exactly will non-Lord traders help? Will they just be able see the offers and report them?

What about caravan paraphernalia?

Exactly what Traders will do is under discussion now. As I understand it they don't need caravans, so I'm guessing when they purchase food, they can choose where to direct it to.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: vonGenf on January 26, 2012, 12:05:20 PM
But traders do not have to be lords, they can work as "brokers" of deals and make a nice profit without ever having to worry about details such as where to store the food.

Does you mean that if region x has a sell offer and region y has a buy offer, and those regions are too far apart to see each other, then a random trader passing by could trigger the sale and pocket the price difference? That would be nice.

The caravan paraphernalia will most likely go away. Otherwise we'll never get people away from the mindset of the trader as a travelling salesman.

I would request that at least something be kept to allow troop leaders to feed their troops when in famished lands.

Frankly, that's a commoners job. We may be adding infiltrator and trader commoner classes in the future, though.

That would be nice.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on January 26, 2012, 12:07:12 PM
..eh.. if you get rid of caravans.. how do you loot food from somewhere else and bring it home?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: vonGenf on January 26, 2012, 12:08:37 PM
..eh.. if you get rid of caravans.. how do you loot food from somewhere else and bring it home?

Oh, yes, also that!
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 26, 2012, 12:10:11 PM
Does you mean that if region x has a sell offer and region y has a buy offer, and those regions are too far apart to see each other, then a random trader passing by could trigger the sale and pocket the price difference? That would be nice.

That is exactly what it means and what the role of the trader would be.


I would request that at least something be kept to allow troop leaders to feed their troops when in famished lands.

That is something I'm currently thinking about. Might be that carts or something else take that role and it becomes more passive than active (i.e. you don't actually have to buy food).
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 26, 2012, 12:11:26 PM
..eh.. if you get rid of caravans.. how do you loot food from somewhere else and bring it home?

By leaving the "bring it home" part to someone else - you would loot it and it would be added to your region. Later on (when the time delays are added) with a delay.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: D`Este on January 26, 2012, 12:19:01 PM
Quote
Co-ordinating the building of Market Places would be no different to co-ordinating the various infrastructure we already do.

Besides that most infrastructure is non critical, warehouses are..

Quote
If you need to constantly poke the Lords to set food, you appointed the wrong nobles to the position. Sure there might not have been anyone better, welcome to the hassles we all face when the wrong person is doing the wrong job.

Tell me one realm where this isn't required, in all those I have been lords need to be constantly reminded.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on January 26, 2012, 12:21:43 PM
By leaving the "bring it home" part to someone else - you would loot it and it would be added to your region. Later on (when the time delays are added) with a delay.
eh? so your army walks around, loot.. and then it just appear somewhere? region where you have an estate? (what if you have no estate?)

don't mind.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on January 26, 2012, 12:28:01 PM
Besides that most infrastructure is non critical, warehouses are..

Tell me one realm where this isn't required, in all those I have been lords need to be constantly reminded.

Scouts, Healers, Siege Engines RC's are critical? Don't know what game you are playing but those are all pretty important in the game I play.

And of course most realms have issues with Lords and trade, cause what do they do about it? Pretty much nothing but send more messages. If a Lord can't step up and do their duty, find someone that can.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on January 26, 2012, 12:30:00 PM
eh? so your army walks around, loot.. and then it just appear somewhere? region where you have an estate? (what if you have no estate?)

don't mind.

The current idea is to abstract away caravans. It would be assumed that some of the camp followers that every army has could handle shipping the food back.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on January 26, 2012, 01:10:10 PM
sure.. i get that.. it's just the details that usually messes things up
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Peri on January 26, 2012, 01:36:15 PM
Just a comment: Tom I think you did a good thing by warning the continents of the imminent change. I believe this should be done rather regularly to allow people which do not read the forum to a) be aware of what's going on b) provide feedback. Too often in the past as ruler I had been engaged in several ooc exchanges with people that were completely unaware of the changes to explain them what to do and so on, and this means they had no idea what was supposed to work how, and in turn couldn't really help with finding bugs.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on January 26, 2012, 01:56:45 PM
Could the grace period cover a few weeks *after* the change as well, and be executed a bit later? In D'Hara, caravans take weeks to reach their destination, and then weeks to come back. Imports we require. To cancel caravans over a mere few days notice could cost us hundreds or even thousands of gold and good amounts of food.

I have relatively few right now, only 250 gold's worth of goods, but it wasn't rare for me to have 1000 gold or more on active caravans at the same time, as mere lord of Paisly. I have no idea what the other lords are doing.

A few days is not warning enough. Takes forever to get anywhere on Dwilight, and my caravans aren't due back for 3, 9, and 10 days personally.

While I understand that changes always cause such issues, is there any reason to rush this if it's going to cause caravan losses? Or could you make all lordly caravans auto-arrive before getting rid of them all? Because if our current caravans are deleted, it creates a gap in shipments that will be felt only in weeks, and not immediately.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 26, 2012, 03:33:02 PM
I will accelerate caravans just before the change. Those already on their way should be fine, but you shouldn't send out any from now on. No guarantee for those.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Lorgan on January 26, 2012, 03:44:53 PM
What would the trade skill do?

Because I think it might be interesting to make the range of traders dependent on their trading skill. Aside from maybe keeping the exotic goods thingie etc...
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on January 26, 2012, 03:56:37 PM
IMO, that's a good idea. Higher trader skill = higher range for finding deals.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 26, 2012, 09:06:05 PM
IMO, that's a good idea. Higher trader skill = higher range for finding deals.

That is exactly what it does already.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on January 26, 2012, 09:25:41 PM
Yeah, I noticed about 10 minutes after I posted that, but forgot to go back and change my post.  :-[
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on January 27, 2012, 03:53:00 PM
Should we all scrap our caravan builders, to lower building cost for marketplaces? or will our existing buildings be converted over in some fashion?

And, warehouses will just be renamed granaries, right? no need to build anew?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 27, 2012, 05:11:40 PM
Should we all scrap our caravan builders, to lower building cost for marketplaces? or will our existing buildings be converted over in some fashion?

And, warehouses will just be renamed granaries, right? no need to build anew?

I'll be taking care of granaries in a minute. Marketplaces have always been around, so very likely there is nothing you need to do. I've not decided what's going to happen with the caravan builders.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on January 27, 2012, 06:26:00 PM
... i'm very tempted to black market something... smack in ally territory...
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: [email protected] on January 27, 2012, 06:27:35 PM
On that note, what happens if we still have caravans with food in them, and no way to sell off the food so that we can drop the caravans? As long as a caravan has food in it, it can't be dropped, so until a manual change poofs those caravans, they're dead weight.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 27, 2012, 07:01:31 PM
I'll remove them from the game when they no longer do anything.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: D`Este on January 28, 2012, 12:56:16 PM
Will there be anything to prevent traders from buying all food of a realm without having an agreement about it?

For example, a trader with decent trading skill sits in Port Nebel and snipes the moment he sees a buy offer in Luria Nova and thus instantly buying all food that is available there. This will the offer in Luria Nova is only posted to allow transportation of a rural to a city and not to sell to person that comes first.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on January 28, 2012, 01:26:06 PM
Will there be anything to prevent traders from buying all food of a realm without having an agreement about it?

For example, a trader with decent trading skill sits in Port Nebel and snipes the moment he sees a buy offer in Luria Nova and thus instantly buying all food that is available there. This will the offer in Luria Nova is only posted to allow transportation of a rural to a city and not to sell to person that comes first.

This is easily handled, don't use sell orders, use buy orders. He can't buy your food if you never release it to the open market.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 28, 2012, 01:33:01 PM
Will there be anything to prevent traders from buying all food of a realm without having an agreement about it?

If you are stupid enough to put all of your food on the market, then no.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: D`Este on January 28, 2012, 01:50:10 PM
Uhm, so I should manually list countless buy orders for 100 bushels? As the amount I'm buying cant be too large as else the rurals can't fill the order. Alright......... will this be changed later on as I can imagine more fun things then list orders.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 28, 2012, 02:16:02 PM
No, this is where traders come in.

Yes, you can write 20 buy orders for 100 bushels each. But you can also write out 4 orders for 500 bushels each, and wait for a trader to do the work of getting you the batches.

Or you can write one or two big ones for traders and a few small ones for the other region lords to accept immediately.

Plus, of course, your region lords can put up sales orders in the magnitude they can afford and you can buy those.


Really, why is everyone so focussed on the "this will be horrible" part? Right now, it seems that for every change I make, I need to go away for a week afterwards until the complaints have died down and everyone has realized that the world is still turning.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: [email protected] on January 28, 2012, 02:17:29 PM
Complaints come from change. Also, because it requires brainpower to process or something.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on January 28, 2012, 02:52:46 PM
Uhm, so I should manually list countless buy orders for 100 bushels? As the amount I'm buying cant be too large as else the rurals can't fill the order. Alright......... will this be changed later on as I can imagine more fun things then list orders.

Or, make some of the sell orders larger, and you simply will buy from Region A on Monday, Region B on Thursday, Region C on Sunday, etc--let the food build up in the rurals a bit, and rotate your purchases.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: D`Este on January 28, 2012, 02:58:50 PM
No, this is where traders come in.

Yes, you can write 20 buy orders for 100 bushels each. But you can also write out 4 orders for 500 bushels each, and wait for a trader to do the work of getting you the batches.

Or you can write one or two big ones for traders and a few small ones for the other region lords to accept immediately.

Plus, of course, your region lords can put up sales orders in the magnitude they can afford and you can buy those.

Really, why is everyone so focussed on the "this will be horrible" part? Right now, it seems that for every change I make, I need to go away for a week afterwards until the complaints have died down and everyone has realized that the world is still turning.

This would require region lords to post sale orders, which friendly people in other realms can buy instantly. So that brings back the original problem of not being able to protect your food. And the solution that was offered for that was to put up manual buy orders. But a trader for example still needs a sell order in a region to match large buy orders. All I ask for is a way to prevent other realms from buying food with it not requiring a lot of time of the person buying the food.

Artemesia, thank you for your wonderful comment. Go manage food yourself and then start crying.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on January 28, 2012, 03:05:11 PM
This would require region lords to post sale orders, which friendly people in other realms can buy instantly. So that brings back the original problem of not being able to protect your food. And the solution that was offered for that was to put up manual buy orders. But a trader for example still needs a sell order in a region to match large buy orders. All I ask for is a way to prevent other realms from buying food with it not requiring a lot of time of the person buying the food.

Artemesia, thank you for your wonderful comment. Go manage food yourself and then start crying.

You don't need traders. Duke creates buy offers, region lords fulfill them when their granaries have enough food. Simple. Need more detail?

The Duke can spend one day creating enough trade orders to last a couple of weeks.

The region lords can check whenever they want extra gold and meet the buy orders.

I suggest having a variety of buy orders--some at 50, some at 100, some at 300.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Peri on January 28, 2012, 03:12:04 PM
You don't need traders. Duke creates buy offers, region lords fulfill them when their granaries have enough food. Simple. Need more detail?

The Duke can spend one day creating enough trade orders to last a couple of weeks.

The region lords can check whenever they want extra gold and meet the buy orders.

I suggest having a variety of buy orders--some at 50, some at 100, some at 300.

But wouldn't that need the duke to be every 2 weeks in his city (quite ok in my opinion) but also the lords pretty often back in their regions (and that's annoying) ?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Eithad on January 28, 2012, 04:17:40 PM
But wouldn't that need the duke to be every 2 weeks in his city (quite ok in my opinion) but also the lords pretty often back in their regions (and that's annoying) ?

No, if you read it says as long as they are in a marketplace they can access trade, no need to be in your own region.

also about protecting food from other realms, that's where diplomacy and war comes  in.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on January 28, 2012, 04:49:58 PM
um... doh... i forgot to cancel manual trade offers before the change where i plonked down gold from year ago... XD

damn.. and i was sort of low on gold (not low per se.. just the expenditure is rather high)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on January 29, 2012, 02:06:58 PM
For all those who are afraid their food will be "stolen" (i.e. bought up by another realm), I am currently working on a limit flag for trades.

The default is already that people your realm is at war with can not accept your offers. With the new flag, you can also restrict this even more to only allies (excluding those who are neutral or at peace with your realm) or even to only people from your realm.

It won't take long for this to be added.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on January 29, 2012, 06:31:41 PM
Thank you, Tom.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 01, 2012, 02:44:10 AM
To sum up what I've seen with the new system:

1) Apparently, trade range is now shorter.
2) I have lowered accessibility to my trade options: I am in a region of my realm, not traveling, and unlike before do not have tools to set up trades.
3) Trade offers must now have a "best before" date.
4) I must now chose the price from a drop-down menu, severely limiting one's flexibility.
5) I can't target specific regions with my offers, I can't chose to favor one buyer or seller over another. I therefore cannot send caravans before food is available, hoping they'll arrive just in time to snatch it when it becomes available before others.

What have we gained? I haven't had much chances to fiddle with the new system yet, but all I'm seeing are negatives...
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 01, 2012, 02:56:19 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on February 01, 2012, 03:03:41 AM
1) Trade range is now a factor of your character and their position. Not a factor of distance from your region
And if you're a trader, your trade skill. Higher trade skill = higher range. Also, traders can hook up regions that are vastly farther apart. If their range is 500 miles, they can hook up a region that is 500 miles to the west of their location with a region that is 500 miles to the east, for a total trade distance of 1,000 miles. (No, that's not the max possible distance. The better traders can go farther than that.)

Quote
3) I've got no idea about this one. Do you mean they expire if no one fills them within a certain time?
You have to specify a lifetime for the trade deals. They expire in a max of 14 days, and the gold/food is returned.

It is quite possible that a lord may have reduced flexibility with this system. But if you're smart, and have a couple traders working with you on establishing a trading network, you can cover huge swathes of the islands. But you will probably have to share some of the action with your partners in crime.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 01, 2012, 03:06:42 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 01, 2012, 03:09:26 AM
I see...

I'm used to handling all of my city's food imports and exports. Now I have to relay that to a trader, since I can't become one myself?

Interesting new potential, but not really liking some of its implications.

So if I understand correctly, I can go to any region with a warehouse, and my "range" is my current location, not my home region? So if I go all the way north, I can buy food for Paisly directly? Will the food go directly to Paisly, or will I need caravans?

Also, are markets free of charge? It would make sense to be able to tax people to use your markets, since you *are* providing them with quite a handy service...
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 01, 2012, 03:13:56 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on February 01, 2012, 03:17:26 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 01, 2012, 03:20:34 AM
Priests can't be traders. Besides, as a duke and ambassador I never want to be that far away from home either.

I've always handled the food of my city myself. Partly being because 1) hardly anyone's interested in dealing with food and 2) historically, most others who tried always ended up starving their cities to revolt. Food management was too important to delegate.

I understand there's no tariff right now, but I seriously think there ought to be one. I would hate to see the whole continent come to D'Hara to bum off our markets, and that we gain nothing in return. That is, if our markets ever reach anywhere, which they currently don't. I can't even reach Madina city anymore, when I used to be able to reach their whole realm and most of Caerwyn. Am I going to have to spend all of my time travelling to be able to reach the same markets I used to be able to reach from anywhere in my realm?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 01, 2012, 03:25:12 AM
2 more issues which might be due to my misunderstanding:

Without caravans, does that mean that only lords and stewards can trade, now?

And does that mean that we can only travel to import? Is it still possible to go far away to sell?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 01, 2012, 03:26:18 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 01, 2012, 03:32:01 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 01, 2012, 03:45:12 AM
It's not even just the long sea routes to foreign realms: D'Hara is 1000 miles across. Many others are also of similar dimensions, I believe, even if less linear.

Traders work differently now. They MATCH buy and sell orders within their range. Like was said earlier this means their effective range is twice their "max" trading range. So say there is a 300 bushel buy order in Pasily, and there is a trader up in Golden Farrow. He can potentially match that buy order to sell orders. The trader can match multiple orders, so he can for instance match 2 buy orders with 3 sell orders, so long as the total food bought and sold in the transaction is the same, and he doesn't lose money on the deal. The sell orders could be from far up north, and he can sell south of his location, so long as the destination is within his trading range, and the source is within his trading range, the distance between destination and source can be greater then the traders range.

I believe it is possible, as a Lord, to sell your regions food within the range of your current location.

So one always need to be in range of D'Hara in order to sell to D'Hara? Our traders couldn't go trade with Springdale, for example, with this new system? Unless a million lords are willing to resell the food at the same price for you?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 01, 2012, 03:53:30 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Andrew on February 01, 2012, 04:52:33 AM
I remember in the old system as Lord of Dunnbrook, I could send carvans as far south as Chesney. If that's an "adjustment", that's prolly a bit much in my opinion.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on February 01, 2012, 06:25:26 AM

  • Correct. In testing, I took the lord of Eidulb Outskirts all the way down to Fissoa, and using the market I built there (since the silly Fissoans didn't have one...) I executed trades with several Fissoan regions. And I was able to both broker deals in the area, as well as create trade deals on the stores in Eidulb Outskirts and close the deals with the Fissoan regions.

what do you mean you built a market there?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 01, 2012, 06:29:45 AM
what do you mean you built a market there?

Test server. To be able to test things the Devs sometimes need to set up specific tests cases.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on February 01, 2012, 06:46:27 AM
as in the testing islands everyone is using? or a duplicate somewhere (since i was looking at the market there in fissoa XD)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Bedwyr on February 01, 2012, 06:58:18 AM
as in the testing islands everyone is using? or a duplicate somewhere (since i was looking at the market there in fissoa XD)

Devs have access to a server that is not part of the game, which they use for testing various things.  Very handy, though it obviously doesn't catch everything.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Peri on February 01, 2012, 11:00:39 AM
Isn't there an asymmetry with respect to buy/sell for Lords or stewards?

As Chenier pointed out, a Lord of a region in dire need of food could go around (or send his steward around) to visit local -possibly very distant- marketplaces and find buy offers to replenish his own granaries. On the other hand a Lord of a region with a large surplus can't do something like that (if I understood the system right), and simply has to hope that some other region within the reach of a random trader passing by has an open buy offer that could match his.

Wouldn't it be possible just as a lord/steward can buy food for his region remotely to sell his region's stocks remotely? Perhaps that would be a bit against the idea tom has of the trader as not a traveling salesman, but would give food producers more chances to sell.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 01, 2012, 11:05:15 AM
Isn't there an asymmetry with respect to buy/sell for Lords or stewards?

As Chenier pointed out, a Lord of a region in dire need of food could go around (or send his steward around) to visit local -possibly very distant- marketplaces and find buy offers to replenish his own granaries. On the other hand a Lord of a region with a large surplus can't do something like that (if I understood the system right), and simply has to hope that some other region within the reach of a random trader passing by has an open buy offer that could match his.

Wouldn't it be possible just as a lord/steward can buy food for his region remotely to sell his region's stocks remotely? Perhaps that would be a bit against the idea tom has of the trader as not a traveling salesman, but would give food producers more chances to sell.

Who said they can't sell their food remotely? If there is a buy order posted in the locality, then the Lord can fill it so far as I know.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on February 01, 2012, 11:59:12 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Peri on February 01, 2012, 12:20:31 PM
Who said they can't sell their food remotely? If there is a buy order posted in the locality, then the Lord can fill it so far as I know.

oh ok I didn't get it.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on February 01, 2012, 12:24:20 PM
Your steward can do likewise (Not 100% stewards are implemented in the new system though)

They are


You're a priest, huh? It might be interesting to investigate re-enabling priest/trader.

I might actually give that a thought. There were several reasons why the old system disallowed it, they may no longer be true in the new system.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on February 01, 2012, 07:26:04 PM
Here's what I can do as a region lord:
Buy food from any region in range and sell to Raviel
Sell food from any region in range and sell to Raviel

So I can travel to Storms Keep and purchase food for Raviel, or sell food to Storms Keep from Raviel.

Here's what my trader can do, with his 562 mile range:

From Paisly, I can purchase food as far south as Candiels Fields, and as far north as Vasgew. So I could buy food from Candiels Fields and sell them to Saffalore, or anyplace in between. Or west to Twainwood, or east to Nebel. So I an buy food from Terran, Barca, and Aurvrandil, and supply all 3 major cities of D'Hara, assuming those region lords of buy orders in place.

Or, I could travel to Vasgew, and broker a deal between Lowervia and Paisly. Or do the same to cover most of Madina's regions from Candiels Fields.

Here's what we can do with multiple traders and a cooperative region lord:

Trader A can travel to Vasgew, buy food from Lowervia, and sell to Paisly.
Trader B can travel to Candiels fields, buy food from Paisly, and sell to Bol.

For reference, that's two (good) traders, each with a range of about 560 miles, selling food over a distance of about 2000 miles. Only 2 buy and 2 sell orders are needed.

And of course, since it's unlikely that Paisly will be selling food, you can think of all that as the effective 'buying range' of two traders in range of Paisly--over half of western Dwilight.

And, we can do the same thing from the Desert of Silhouettes, but I'm not sure of the specific regions in range.

Trading over the sea routes would be an excellent addition. With those, we'll be able to travel to Golden Farrow or Mimer and trade within 500 miles of those regions, and send the food back to D'Hara.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on February 01, 2012, 07:34:30 PM
And of course, since it's unlikely that Paisly will be selling food, you can think of all that as the effective 'buying range' of two traders in range of Paisly--over half of western Dwilight.
Now combine that trading range with the ability of a steward/lord, who can always trade with his home region regardless of where they are. You can be *very* effective.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 01, 2012, 11:37:22 PM
You are comparing apples and oranges. You are looking for advantages compared to the way things used to be instead of acknowledging that the new system is entirely different.

Comparing is kinda necessary given the importance of trade for the survival of my Dwi realm. The balance was never secured, and even while things were improving recently massive realm-killing starvation was never that far away. In this regard, I'm not comparing apples and oranges, I'm comparing a fruit with a fruit.

Still haven't had the time to fully grasp the new trading system and evaluate how it, on top of the population and food consumption changes, will affect us.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 01, 2012, 11:41:17 PM
Now combine that trading range with the ability of a steward/lord, who can always trade with his home region regardless of where they are. You can be *very* effective.

"cooperative lords" is the element in the equation I'm disliking. Given how realms with their adjacent unclaimed regions can cover quite large areas, that means that trade can severely be hampered by mere non-cooperation, whereas before it would have taken them active measures to block it.

The ability to have a steward trader go far far away is appealing... if only I had a trader as a knight (heck, a knight at all).
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on February 01, 2012, 11:54:56 PM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Zakilevo on February 02, 2012, 01:44:31 AM
Hope when we do rework some economic aspects of BM, we should have some imbalances. Like realms with mountainous regions producing high amount of metals while producing little food or something like that. Trade was necessary for men because people didn't have everything they needed.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 02, 2012, 01:54:17 AM
Hope when we do rework some economic aspects of BM, we should have some imbalances. Like realms with mountainous regions producing high amount of metals while producing little food or something like that. Trade was necessary for men because people didn't have everything they needed.

Yes this the the information the "Major Industries" used to provide, not that anything was implemented beyond that. The whole point of the proposed economy change was to encourage war and trade by spreading out essential resources. However the change, at least in the form that was proposed has been scrapped.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on February 02, 2012, 11:01:24 AM
Hope when we do rework some economic aspects of BM, we should have some imbalances. Like realms with mountainous regions producing high amount of metals while producing little food or something like that. Trade was necessary for men because people didn't have everything they needed.

Yes, something like that is still under consideration. However, under the old system that would have been an insane amount of crazy and bug-prone code.

Right now, there is nothing specific on the table, but my thoughts go in two directions:

a) something like in the Civ games, where if you control a resource, you can use it, and you need a certain number of resources for some things. So controlling that mountain region may give you x points of metal and some high-end recruitment centers need metal points to produce soldiers.

b) maybe with the new trade system, these resources could be tradeable goods. I'm really not sure about that, though.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Zakilevo on February 02, 2012, 06:28:40 PM
That would be pretty cool. But I can already see this will take at least another year or two for it to actually happen.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Longmane on February 02, 2012, 07:15:49 PM

a) something like in the Civ games, where if you control a resource, you can use it, and you need a certain number of resources for some things. So controlling that mountain region may give you x points of metal and some high-end recruitment centers need metal points to produce soldiers.


Something like that would sooo fit in with a long time feature request I've been working on, and best thing of all is with it not likely happen for a while I might actually have finished by then.  :D

b) maybe with the new trade system, these resources could be tradeable goods. I'm really not sure about that, though.

Perhaps that could be worked in with the ideas of fairs if they ever happen, not so much the regular type of one, insomuch as happens in your own realm every week/month what ever, but something along the lines of the major ones each Provence in france  held once a year in medieval times, but in this case it being each realm.


Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Eithad on February 02, 2012, 07:28:12 PM

a) something like in the Civ games, where if you control a resource, you can use it, and you need a certain number of resources for some things. So controlling that mountain region may give you x points of metal and some high-end recruitment centers need metal points to produce soldiers.

b) maybe with the new trade system, these resources could be tradeable goods. I'm really not sure about that, though.

The major issue I see with a) is that it puts small realms at a huge disadvantage compared with large realms which span across multiple resource types unless the resources had a smaller range of effects, so instead of realm wide, maybe duchy wide or just surrounding regions. The feature is probably still far away so don't really need to balance it now.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on February 02, 2012, 07:35:56 PM
Duchy-wide effects are always an interesting option. But then this leads to possible abuses of "let's cram all of our regions into one big duchy". Or swapping regions between duchies to max the effects. That leads to more artificial constraints to try and limit the size of a duchy. The players then complain of all the artificial restrictions on their freedoms, etc.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Zakilevo on February 02, 2012, 08:04:26 PM
Well we can change things around by making regions duchy centric rather capital centric.

Farther your region is from the duchy capital, it becomes hard to maintain the region? Like reduced income and food production etc?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Perth on February 02, 2012, 08:10:24 PM
Well we can change things around by making regions duchy centric rather capital centric.

Farther your region is from the duchy capital, it becomes hard to maintain the region? Like reduced income and food production etc?

I think that would be an example of an artificial constraint that he was talking about.  ;)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Calanar on February 03, 2012, 12:29:16 PM
I haven't got the time this morning to run through all 6 pages of comments, so I guess I'll just ask, and if I missed it, I apologize.

With the new system, on Dwilight, my character's region is starving. However, there's enough food in the granary for another 360 days. (We just took the region, so population is next to nothing.)

How do I get rid of the starving status if there's plenty of food?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 03, 2012, 12:53:59 PM
I haven't got the time this morning to run through all 6 pages of comments, so I guess I'll just ask, and if I missed it, I apologize.

With the new system, on Dwilight, my character's region is starving. However, there's enough food in the granary for another 360 days. (We just took the region, so population is next to nothing.)

How do I get rid of the starving status if there's plenty of food?

I think is should correct itself over the next few days. Each day the region is properly fed it loses some of the accumulated starvation counter. I think.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 05, 2012, 07:18:42 PM
Good! It is high time that economic elements enter more into diplomacy.

I think you overestimate its impacts. It only truly affects the importing realm in a serious manner, as the trade profits from the exporter and much lower than the costs of a war. Meanwhile, very, very few realms in the game are import-heavy and there is usually an abundance of potential trade partners to work with. On Dwilight, D'Hara is the biggest importer (probably of the whole game, too), but it faces no real competition aside from the Zuma. And while it wants to trade with everyone, there's no incentive to take any action against those who deny trade, as every realm that could hamper our trade is part of a bloc that could bring us in a very costly war we have no interest in waging.

And besides, the restraints are becoming passive instead of active: instead of going out of their way to block us from buying from their lords or trading with their neighbor, all they have to do is sit around and do nothing. This reduces interaction, because it requires nothing on their part and there's very little to set the intentional failure to trade apart from the "can't be arsed" failure to trade.

I'm not saying the new system sucks, and I do think that simplification is overall a good thing, as most players really don't want to deal with trade and as such the simpler the system is, the better it is for them. Simpler code = less bugs, which is good too. But I simply can't agree with this conclusion that the new system will make economic elements enter diplomacy more. I'd figure it would make it matter even less, because we lose the ability to decide that we will sell to X for 40 gold, but to Y for 60 gold. Or that we will feed region X for 40 gold, but refuse to feed region Y even if it offers 60 gold. Everything is now up on the free and open market, the new system removes our power to do preferential trading. How can trade figure in diplomacy when everyone has open and free markets?

Economy, in general, always affects diplomacy in one way or another. Gold production always has (quest for rich regions, desire for wealthy allies). Food production helped consolidate alliances. They always had their role, and whether that role was significant or not is really just a matter of opinion. However, they will only significantly increase in importance if they become scarce. Then people would consider them more importantly, as D'Hara decides everything according to food. However, I highly doubt that's the best way to go, because scarcity means winners and losers, and therefore a lot of frustration. D'Hara's unique, and I always enjoyed managing imports and looking forward to the day our trade network would be great enough for us to monopolize trade on Dwilight. A dream more than a project, really. But I'm pretty sure most players would bore themselves to death in D'Hara, and I would never suggest imposing such economic burdens on significant portions of the player base. We colonized the isles knowing we would live and die according to our capacity to import food from abroad, nobody else threw themselves in such a situation of anticipated food deficits. As such, be it with food or new resources, I don't think we should ever make the lack of resources become of greater importance than it is now.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on February 05, 2012, 08:41:36 PM
I would wait with any estimates on how the new system affects diplomacy until the boosts given during the switch run out, which should be in a few days. Then we will, for the first time, get a real picture on how important food is.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on February 06, 2012, 08:28:27 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 07, 2012, 01:57:08 AM
I would wait with any estimates on how the new system affects diplomacy until the boosts given during the switch run out, which should be in a few days. Then we will, for the first time, get a real picture on how important food is.

Crap... Gotta run to a marketplace. There seem to be so few around... None of my characters have had a chance to get to one yet.

You can do this--there are new restrictions on "sell only to your realm" or "sell only to your ally". and, of course, you can simply choose not to use sell orders at all, but instead utilize only buy orders.

This is extremely limiting, compared to what we used to be able to do. We can't use food against individual dukes anymore (a strategy used by many over the years). Also, this assumes that everyone at "peace" is viewed equally, and all "allies" are valued the same, etc. Furthermore, "can trade/can't trade" is far, far away from preferential/discriminating price policies. I also don't see why we are implementing new features based on the old diplomacy system, when "peace/alliance/etc." is supposed to end up scrapped.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 07, 2012, 02:07:38 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 07, 2012, 02:34:40 AM
Because the new system is not going to be implemented any time soon. Treaties aren't on the near horizons, sorry

In terms of preferential price polices, it works the same as always. You had to know when caravans were going to arrive for the old system to work anyway, there was no magic button. So now you have to set up buy/sell orders when the appropriate part is ready to fill them. Pretty simple really

The way people used the old system for preferential/discriminating price policies was never intended at any rate. It was a artefact of people micromanaging the system. Do you really think the design process went along the line of, oh and some super active or motivated people will be able to organise food sales to occur just as caravans are arriving or a trader is ready to do the trade?

Anyway the Luria's have been having good success with just putting up a buy order when we know the other party is ready to purchase the food, allows us to set the price for each buyer.

Micromanagement? What *you* speak of is micromanagement. I never, ever toyed with my purchase prices according to what caravans where on their way.

Rather, I was simply the one sending all of the caravans all of the time. 95% of caravans that delivered food or gold in Paisly were sent by myself. And there was absolutely nothing complicated about this. Set and forget, once per week or so. I got used to which regions usually have food and good prices, and ended up sending them caravans every week, regardless of whether they were showing as trading or not. It was a routine, and a rather simple one that really didn't take much time or require much thinking to pull off. No need to think of when others produce, or when others are ready to buy, or when stocks are arriving. THAT is micromanagement. I couldn't be arsed with such details. All I needed was to check my send caravans page once per week, for about 4 minutes.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 07, 2012, 02:40:26 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 07, 2012, 02:47:14 AM
Then it wasn't really preferential, since anyone could have purchased the food before your caravans arrived. What have you lost? The fact you had to wait days for the food you purchased to actually be in your warehouse and being used? You are really going to need to explain how the system is affecting you in the way you stated earlier.

Well, I'm working a lot with how I understand the system to be, right now. I haven't actually gotten in any darn marketplace yet.

But the new system doesn't allow you to be able to say that "to you, I'll buy/sell at X", while giving another price to someone else. All the offers are up on the table. Port Nebel's low on food and production's [email protected]#$ty? How do I give it food? Put a cheap offer on the market and hope that the duke gets to it first? Put an expensive offer and give him gold to compensate? What if I'm dealing with someone from a neighbor realm (where gold transfers don't work)?

Just feels like the free market was imposed on us. All offers become so transparent, and all of a sudden the government gets a lot more power over their lords over who they can or can't trade with.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on February 07, 2012, 03:12:01 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 07, 2012, 03:23:26 AM
  • Put up a Sell offer and have him buy it.
  • Have him put up a Buy offer, and then you sell him food to fill it.
Really, not much has changed, except that you can't just give food away any more. (Which I agree is a bit annoying. But I can deal with that.)

I'm a bit confused about how the offers work. About who can set buy or sell offers, and when and where. I'm gonna try to get to a marketplace as soon as possible to see things for myself (perhaps I'll understand better), but that'll take a few days.

Putting up a a sell offer from my region, for cheap, ain't a good option for giving food away though as the first trader/lord to check the markets will be able to snatch it before the intended duke.

Umm... what? I get the feeling that your just posting random objections to the system without really thinking things through.

In order for the government to prevent you from trading with someone, they will need to declare war on them. (And you can work around that with the assistance of a neutral third party, anyway.) "The government" has no idea who you are selling food to, or who you are buying food from, or for how much. They cannot control how much food you sell, or for what price. They can see the offers you post, if they happen to look while the offer is open. But they cannot know who fills them. And if you are paranoid about "the government" seeing what offers you have open, then have your foreign contact put up offers, and you fill them. That way your region never has an open offer, and no one will ever know that you bought/sold the food.

Aren't people saying that the government can set that you can only trade with allies, or no one?

My issues aren't with my own government, but with others'. And the way I see it, the only way for us to trade with people from far away is to send traders to them (as it's unreasonable to expect the whole world to come to D'Hara to sell their personal stocks). As such, those lords *need* to set a public sell offer for traders to be able to pick it up. And now the trade offers are posted in a much clearer way (instead of buried within a long list of regions) and available to everyone (instead of only lords). Lords selling us food despite a realm-level policy of "no exports" or "exports to X only" accounted for a significant part of D'Haran imports over the years... If they can now check a box stating "only trade with allies", then that will give governments a lot more power over the lords than they used to have, and deny the lords the capacity to defy their government. Unless I misunderstood and that option to sell to allies only is the lord's, and not the government's?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on February 07, 2012, 03:31:06 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 07, 2012, 03:34:58 AM
I see...

I look forward to actually getting to try this new system to be able to provide informed feedback.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on February 07, 2012, 03:35:53 AM
This is all set by the lord. The banker/duke can see the offers, but not control them in any way. In fact, there is no way for them to even see who the offer is restricted to.

That needed to be bolded, it directly addresses the objection from Chenier.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 07, 2012, 03:38:01 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 07, 2012, 03:52:58 AM
]

The confusion I have is, how did you used to say to you I will buy/sell at X? There was no explicit mechanics for it and the only way I knew that it worked was micromanaging or hoping no one beat your caravans, which is still possible now. If you are talking about sending out buy caravans with more gold per 100 then the regions buying price, I would have to go and look that up again. My understanding was it always favoured the caravans, so you caravans would buy at the lowest possible cost up to the amount you set. I could be wrong about that.

Because I sent a lot more caravans abroad than others sent to me, and because I sent a lot of caravans with, in mind, not the current displayed offers but what would likely be next. I didn't bother to calculate how long was the travel to time the caravans with harvests, I just sent *a lot* of caravans. It was not rare for me to have 20 or so caravans out at the same time.

Others could theoretically beat me, yes, but the difference was in the caravan delays. Those willing to sell to me for cheaper, or those I was willing to sell for cheaper were a lot closer to me than any competitor, as traders needed to be in the region in person and neighboring realms were all exporters, not importers.

Mind you, I think the new system is not as bad for these things as I first thought. As I said in my last post, I'll try to try it out as soon as possible. I did not realize you could set purchase offers, I thought you could only accept sell offers.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on February 07, 2012, 05:21:43 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on February 07, 2012, 10:01:33 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on February 07, 2012, 10:05:27 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on February 07, 2012, 02:37:07 PM
I talked a couple of players through it in-game, and with just a few sentences I could explain the entire system from both a lord and trader perspective.

I have updated the Trade page, hopefully that clears up a lot of things.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on February 08, 2012, 12:13:43 AM
Do consider that my intent is to understand, not to whine.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on February 09, 2012, 09:11:38 PM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on February 10, 2012, 12:56:04 AM
Someone with more skills than myself could maybe put in some sample maps with 'trade ranges' drawn as circles or something.

Actually, we plan to add that to the dynamic map one day.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Charles on February 10, 2012, 01:20:10 AM
While reading a few posts it seems that the Dev team has had to deal with a fair amount of complaining.  I would like to point out that I am liking the new system.  Good job! 
My only issue so far has been that the infrastructure is often not in place for the system; as in, we now need to build marketplaces in a variety of areas in order that our lords do not have to move back to their regions to set up trades.  This could have been very frustrating if we had not been given extra food to deal with the change. 
I assume there will be some things that I will miss in the old system, but there will be alot of things that I do not. 
Anyway just wanted to put in a positive comment incase you had not had one recently. :)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Eithad on February 17, 2012, 11:06:57 PM
Currently the black market says its being reworked.

I think I have a simple suggestion for the black market. Just take out the restrictions on restricted offers if you trade via the black market. That is pretty much how the black market used to work anyways, allowing traders to trade with regions that weren't trading.

It can have the standard risk of capture and being conned and losing some gold.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on February 18, 2012, 02:22:27 AM
I think I have a simple suggestion for the black market. Just take out the restrictions on restricted offers if you trade via the black market. That is pretty much how the black market used to work anyways, allowing traders to trade with regions that weren't trading.

Yes, that is pretty much what I had in mind.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on April 11, 2012, 09:13:24 PM
There are any intention of bring another products rather than only food to trade?

I saw something about this when I joined the game some years ago.

I think it could give the traders a really important role in the game.

Also I didn't understood exactly how the trader broker ability works.
The trader will be able to pay less for something or the Lord hiring him will pay more for him? Who will decide the profit?

In every other game that I played, my class (carrier, profession or whatever was the name) was trader. I really like this and I tried make a trader when I joined the game but there are limited things and close to nothing to profit.

I'm sorry if my questions are stupid or my grammar is bad. It wasn't my intention. Really.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on April 11, 2012, 09:21:37 PM
other goods... not any time soon, i believe.

---
brokering... haven't done it myself, but i believe the basic thing is this...

on a screen, you would see something along the lines of

A of region X is selling H bushels, etc
B of region Y is buying K bushels, etc

if H matches K, you can "broker" the deal.... and pocket any difference in price (if buying price is higher than selling price), or pay out of your own pockets if selling price is higher than buying price.

if H doesn't match K, then you link up a few more deals out there to make sure the amount sold and amount bought is the same.

basically, something is being sold at a certain price and someone is buying it at a certain price. the prices are fixed. how you make a profit depends on which deals you link up.

---
or something like that.

ps... trading only works in bonds... and the zuma has no bonds XD
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Telrunya on April 11, 2012, 09:23:28 PM
Traders have a greater reach to see offers and can broker deals ie. connect Buy and Sell Orders. They can also broker multiple deals as long as the orders match up. So Ii region A has a sell order for 200 Food for 20 gold/100 Bushels, region B has a sell order for 300 food  for 15 gold/100 Bushels and region C has a buy order for 500 Food for 25 gold/100 Bushels, the Trader can broker these deals to buy 200 food from region A, 300 Food from region B and sell that 500 food to region C. The profit for the Trader is the difference in price. Cost to buy food: 85. Income selling food: 125. Profit for the Trader's pockets: 40 gold.

Non-traders have a smaller reach and can only accept a sell order or accept a buy order, not match them up. Though you can easily simulate the matching by accepting the buy offers first, then accepting the sell offers. I guess that's not a real advantage of the Trader. The greater reach means he can see more deals then others though, allowing him to be better at this matching up offers.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on April 11, 2012, 09:28:35 PM
Non-traders have a smaller reach and can only accept a sell order or accept a buy order, not match them up. Though you can easily simulate the matching by accepting the buy offers first, then accepting the sell offers. I guess that's not a real advantage of the Trader.

It is, because the trader doesn't have to be a region lord, i.e. he doesn't have to ever actually store the food anywhere, not even for a short period of time. He also doesn't have to have the bonds on hand to do the buy deals, even with empty pockets he can broker a deal and make a profit.

The first part will become even more important once we add transport delays.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Anaris on April 11, 2012, 09:28:47 PM
There are any intention of bring another products rather than only food to trade?

We would very much like to; however, we need to work out how to do it so that it will not make the game a pain to play for people who aren't that interested in playing EconomyMaster.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Telrunya on April 11, 2012, 09:29:58 PM
Ah, yes, of course, that's very true. I should stop playing rich Stewards/Traders/Lords :)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on April 11, 2012, 10:00:18 PM
Nooo, you said you'd always wait for that day, Telrunya.  Don't you go back on that promise. :P
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on April 11, 2012, 10:03:07 PM
We would very much like to; however, we need to work out how to do it so that it will not make the game a pain to play for people who aren't that interested in playing EconomyMaster.
I see.

It would really bring many complications to the game...
Economic warfare, supply lines blocked during war, war for resources... Ok I get it. Keep food only :D
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on April 12, 2012, 12:05:49 AM
Depending on how it is done, shortage of a resource does not need to cripple the realm, or cause undo hardship. It could be something that was nice to have, and that you'd want to have, but not a killer if you didn't. For example: If you have Metal in your realm/duchy, then recruits from the RCs in that realm/duchy could cost 2 gold less per 10 men. Nice, and you'd want it, but not a gamebreaker if you don't have it. You could probably do something with the others, too. Wood makes archer units a bit cheaper, and level 1 and 2 forts less expensive to build/repair. Stone makes level 3+ forts a bit cheaper to build/repair, and maybe a bonus on road maintenance. Etc. This would give traders a meaningful role, as well as put some strategic value on specific regions, but not overly penalize realms that chose to not do it, or couldn't obtain the resources.

The new trade system actually makes this a lot easier. You don't need to run around the whole island carrying stuff, and having to carry 8 different resources, etc.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on April 12, 2012, 12:27:35 AM
Why have 10000 resources? Just have 3: Food, Materials, Goods.

A region without materials has lowered productivity, while a region with lots regains productivity faster. A region without goods has lowered morale, whereas a region with a lot of goods/population gets a morale bonus.

"Lowered" stats could mean a maximum of 80%. No need for new "have or die" resources.

The presence of resources who give greater bonuses the more you have of them (unlike food, which just prevents starvation) would give traders something to do when food isn't much of an issue, without forcing anyone to really care for the new resources.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on April 12, 2012, 12:37:13 AM
And no one else will say "those three aren't necessary, it's these four that are truly useful"? :)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on April 12, 2012, 01:13:44 AM
I think that this 3 products could be enough.

Also I think that the bonuses need be significant, otherwise there will be no need to Lords look for a kind of resource.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on April 12, 2012, 02:47:59 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Anaris on April 12, 2012, 02:51:23 AM
That's an interesting approach. I was always going to go with Food, Wood, Metal and Goods.

I still believe that this approach works better. It is only one additional resource (or two, if we use Stone as well), and it allows the possibility of being better at one kind of production than another, and thus different strategic options.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on April 12, 2012, 03:33:23 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Duvaille on April 12, 2012, 09:00:38 AM
I still believe that this approach works better. It is only one additional resource (or two, if we use Stone as well), and it allows the possibility of being better at one kind of production than another, and thus different strategic options.

It would help in making distinction between forests and mountains. Each of the region types would then have corresponding resource:

Towns and cities:    goods -> better morale
Plains:                    food -> population growth
Forests:                  wood -> production levels
Mountains:              metal -> cheaper troop recruitment and repairs
Badlands:               sorry, your lands are simply bad

Metal could be tied to warfare mostly and wood for the economy in general. The underlining assumption would be that the blacksmiths, carpenters etc. are always able to get the raw materials they need, but they need to pay more for them if they are scarce. So if you (the lord) supply them yourself, you get better deals.

The idea of having goods available for easier morale control is a splendid one. I can imagine your backward and distant frontier region would be much happier if you frequently supplied them with the high quality goods from the city. But that costs you gold. However, the smaller your population / production / morale the less of the stuff you need to grow and maintain the regional stat.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on April 12, 2012, 09:18:15 AM
Doh, I actually forgot stone in there. But apparently, nobody noticed, so maybe it never was as important as I thought.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on April 12, 2012, 10:11:37 AM
well.. it's not unimportant.. it's just that none of them do anything yet.

i mean.. there is/was flavour text about stone/wood for building, metal for repairs/etc, wasn't there?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Duvaille on April 12, 2012, 12:03:28 PM
Doh, I actually forgot stone in there. But apparently, nobody noticed, so maybe it never was as important as I thought.

Stone could be important for fortifications and road maintenance. Again, you could still build forts without it but it would cost you more, and you would still have roads, but to really have them in a splendid condition, stone is needed.

Though I really would like each resource to be tied to the region type for simplicity's sake. Just by glancing at the map you would get a general idea of what is produced where, or what could be produced. Stone and metal would both naturally go to the mountains. I do not know if this is a problem, perhaps it is not, but it would be nice to have just one resource / region.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Duvaille on April 17, 2012, 08:48:12 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on April 17, 2012, 09:39:28 AM
I kind of like the idea of an "exchange rate".

Basically, the idea would be roughly(!) like this:

The part about this that I don't like is that it makes things fairly complicated. But I wanted to throw it out there.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Velax on April 17, 2012, 09:48:28 AM
When you say you can exchange or buy materials, where are they exchanged or bought from?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Masochist on April 17, 2012, 09:56:09 AM
not really complicated...

You need Wood and Stone.

If you do not have enough wood or stone you can replace that with 2x of another resource or replace it with equal amounts of gold.

I think you just have to many numbers on the screen and that makes it look complicated.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on April 17, 2012, 10:19:00 AM
When you say you can exchange or buy materials, where are they exchanged or bought from?

some random npc. you don't need to buy the stuff personally from the npc before hand. you gather what you have, then the npc fills in the rest and gives you options.

won't even see the npc outside of the building screen no doubt.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Velax on April 17, 2012, 10:46:44 AM
Then why would you ever take the 300 wood option? You end up paying 50% more than you would if you just bought the extra 100 stone. Only reason I could see for it was if you were drowning in wood and had no gold. Seems unlikely for most realms.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Duvaille on April 17, 2012, 11:27:51 AM
I suppose much depends on how much importance you want to give to the resources. The more important they are, the simpler the design ought to be. If the resources are both important and complicated, it forces the game towards TradeMaster, as it is economics at the end that wins wars. If they are, instead, of marginal importance, some players may choose to dive deeper to the nuances of the trading business but it is not absolutely essential to do so.

Personally I don't mind either way. If trading were to grow in importance I know I would enjoy it. But I am not so sure for the majority of the players.

As for the actual uses of each individual resource, I can imagine it would require quite a bit of careful balancing. Should each resource have roughly equal demand in average game environment? How much and what type of resources does temple upgrade take? Roads? Tournament Grounds? Recruitment Centers? Do archers take more wood than cavalry does? All that has to be thought of, balanced, tested and adjusted. Some realms may gain significant advantages over their neighbors due to controlling a key resource.

Now compare that to having a possibility to replace 20% (or 33% or whatever) of the gold cost of any construction etc. with materials, no matter which kind, where more variety is better than less variety. On micro level you would still have materials and food flowing to cities and goods from cities to the provinces, as well as the provinces trading their surplus materials for what they lack. On macro level you would have currents of surplus materials traveling towards areas that lack them, food included.

I just wonder if additional complexity is really worth the effort.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on April 17, 2012, 01:23:45 PM
Then why would you ever take the 300 wood option? You end up paying 50% more than you would if you just bought the extra 100 stone. Only reason I could see for it was if you were drowning in wood and had no gold. Seems unlikely for most realms.

It depends on what you have available. If you have surplus wood, but are poor in gold, then that would be the best option. Likewise, if you have tons of gold, but few resources, then paying everything in gold might be your best option.

Finally trading for the resources is guaranteed to be the cheapest option - but you may or not be able to find the deals you require.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on May 04, 2012, 02:03:59 PM
I understand the benefits that can be provided by having different materials, like wood, metal, stone. Just as you could have, instead of food, cereals, livestock, and fish.

The more resources there are, though, the more difficult it is to balance, and the more effort is demanded from the players to manage all of it.

My proposition was for 1 important resource (food), one useful resource (materials), and one luxury resource (goods). That way people can get away with continuing to manage just 1 resource without crippling consequence, or deal with two to optimize efficiency, or deal with three to maximize everything and make more profits.

If you blow up the resources into wood, stone, and metal, then instead of doubling the number of resources you need to manage to run everything smoothly, you multiply it by four. Lots of people hate the trading game already, and as such I don't really think that quadrupling the amount of time people have to spend on these (and more, since these resources probably won't be as common in all realms as food) is going to make things more fun for people.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on May 04, 2012, 04:57:03 PM
One idea we were floating around was the Civilization model. If your realm has a region that makes wood, then you whole realm is considered to be supplied with wood. This also makes some regions more strategically valuable.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: OFaolain on May 04, 2012, 06:18:15 PM
One idea we were floating around was the Civilization model. If your realm has a region that makes wood, then you whole realm is considered to be supplied with wood. This also makes some regions more strategically valuable.

Ooh, I like the sound of that.  One suggestion I'd like to make is that rather than automatically supplying the realm with wood, the woodlands lord puts his wood on the market for X gold/day for Y days and a King (or equivalent) would purchase access to it wood for the duration (like in Civ 5 where you can sell a resource to the AI for 30 turns and in exchange get either a lump sum, gold/turn or a resource back), which *then* supplies his/her realm with wood.  This would make resource-producing areas (woodlands in this example) more desirable for lordships since it would increase the money they bring in; and, a realm with 4 woodland regions would then be a major exporter of wood and bring in significant revenue that way, while the regions are still desirable since your benefit (access to wood) depends on the good graces of your neighbor who controls all of it.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on May 04, 2012, 06:22:03 PM
Some kind of system to "trade" resources may be possible. But the idea is to simplify the system, and get rid of the extraneous bother and complexity. We want it easy, and without much player overhead.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Charles on May 04, 2012, 06:26:33 PM
I dislike the idea of buying goods from a npc.  This stuff should come from somewhere.  We will already have the system set up to add these other resources, so why not use it?  Once people get used to our trading system, I believe they will start to like it, or atleast be willing to work with it. 
Also, if we can make the trading system affect the regional stats (etc), rather than just gold, I think it would cause some people to be more willing to try it.  I may be wrong though.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Adriddae on May 04, 2012, 06:39:30 PM
One problem I find is that its really hard to make a profit trading. In the old system, caravans, the time to travel, and the soldiers needed to protect against vagabonds, just didn't allow for much profit to be made. The only reason to trade was to help feed your realm's city, or to transport food across to another realm and help them feed their cities. Of course, this was just in my experience with trading.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on May 04, 2012, 11:24:43 PM
One problem I find is that its really hard to make a profit trading. In the old system, caravans, the time to travel, and the soldiers needed to protect against vagabonds, just didn't allow for much profit to be made. The only reason to trade was to help feed your realm's city, or to transport food across to another realm and help them feed their cities. Of course, this was just in my experience with trading.

I think it's much easier to make profits now, mechanics-wise. Market-wise, that's another issue though.

Some kind of system to "trade" resources may be possible. But the idea is to simplify the system, and get rid of the extraneous bother and complexity. We want it easy, and without much player overhead.

Communal resource management is one way to reduce the burden of new resources, while giving the banker something he can actually do for once, but I think that these resources should be produced in nearly every region, albeit in different quantities. If by civ-style, you meant that one tile (region) has all the resource you could possibly need and the rest don't have any, then I wouldn't consider that to be a good idea.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Duvaille on May 05, 2012, 06:36:26 AM
I must say I am with Chenier in this, for the most part anyway. His system is very easy to grasp:

- Peasants hungry -> get them food
- Peasants unhappy -> get them goodies
- Need to build something cheaper -> get materials

A somewhat small step such as this would already improve the trader game a whole lot. With this the food shortage realms would have something to trade back, which would be materials, that they would anyway produce more than they need. Even if this were to be expanded later on, it would be a smaller step that could be taken before more variety is added later. Even without more complexity later on, it would still stand by itself very nicely.

The steps taken could be even smaller. You could start with introducing the goods and see how that works. Tweak it to perfection, let the traders and lords get used to the new resource, get more experience and feedback from the new kind of trade and use all that knowledge for the design and implementation of materials.

"The peasants of your region are happy for all the available goods."

and then perhaps later:

"The availability of materials helps to restore production."
"The abundance of materials boosts production to 107%."
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on May 06, 2012, 09:49:59 PM
Yes, the currently most likely idea is to have all resources be non-essential, but it you have them, it makes things easier/cheaper/whatever.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: ^ban^ on May 07, 2012, 12:59:28 AM
Tom,

This most recent change to production is absurd.

Quote
In summary, your realm appears to be in demand of food, lacking a net total of 18 bushels a day.

This is Solaria -- a region with one city and six rurals. And the realm has a net deficit. This is insane.

Hell, we have three of the top five net food producing regions on the entire island.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Solari on May 07, 2012, 03:37:38 AM
What ^ban^ said.  I can't imagine the horror that other realms are about to encounter.  Solaria was previously producing a 200% surplus, so I'm not really sure how a 15% reduction resulted in a net deficit.  Is something being calculated incorrectly? 
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Duvaille on May 07, 2012, 07:09:19 AM
Well, it does seem a little drastic. If I have understood it correctly, my character's region is one of the most bountiful regions when it comes to harvests. Just in a day my surplus dropped from 15 to 6, which does appear to be more than 15% reduction. Admittedly the weather reports promise bad weather for harvest, so matters might not be as bad as they look.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: vonGenf on May 07, 2012, 07:22:25 AM
In my region which has average weather, the production went down from 15 bushels a day to 13, which seems perfectly in line with the announced cut. If you have bad weather the situation may look bad, but bad weather never lasts.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: dustole on May 07, 2012, 08:10:44 AM
Kabrinskia went from a net producer to needing 140 bushels per day.  That is a fairly drastic change.  Population wise Golden Farrow has been at maximum population for a few weeks now.  The biggest change is that townslands seem to be net importers of food.  In the past townslands were about neutral.  I am curious to see what realms like Luria Nova and D'hara look like. 
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on May 07, 2012, 09:55:16 AM
There's still a thousand bushels stored on average in Dwilight, so there is no need for panic-mode. I will continue to tweak food.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: JPierreD on May 07, 2012, 01:14:59 PM
It would be enlightening to know if players are enjoying the food game currently, because if so it would be quite interesting to make the weather conditions last a little longer, causing more crises in the proto-capitalist (or outright neo-liberal) style our food game simulates.

The premises is that people don't enjoy repetitive tasks for the sake of it, or without much purpose. To have defined and stable seasons with reliable production prognostics, only subject to minor variations, may not be as fun and provide as many conflict opportunities as a less predictable system.

In theory when a region runs temporarily low on food it is likely that each realm will look after themselves, before than after its allies, causing at least some attrition, and making looting temporarily even more effective. In the other side of the island a overproduction could be making food rot and drop its price sharply, unbalancing the rural/city relations, creating political tension (this I have already seen happening). A stable and foreseeing realm will have stocks of food for if/when a drought comes, but warehouses can be looted, or otherwise damaged, and that would not be a total guarantee of safety.

The questions I suppose should be made first are:
1) Do people enjoy the food game?
2) Would they enjoy such harsh food game?
3) Can it be made so it is both harsh but not the sole focus of attention, so that the crisis can be manageable without devoting huge attention to the food game? Or would it not be possible to balance such unpredictability with a simple food system?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on May 07, 2012, 01:24:46 PM
Kabrinskia went from a net producer to needing 140 bushels per day.  That is a fairly drastic change.  Population wise Golden Farrow has been at maximum population for a few weeks now.  The biggest change is that townslands seem to be net importers of food.  In the past townslands were about neutral.  I am curious to see what realms like Luria Nova and D'hara look like.

Our townslands were always clear exporters, though not as great as rurals. Don't know now.

I think we'll be mostly indirectly affected, as our food production wasn't all that high to begin with. And I don't think it'll be that bad. Our allies were sitting on thousands of bushels they didn't know what to do with, and seemingly more than happy to get rid of it at 10 gold per 100 bushels. I think it'll just force us to resume trading with them as we used to.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Duvaille on May 07, 2012, 01:26:48 PM

The questions I suppose should be made first are:
1) Do people enjoy the food game?
2) Would they enjoy such harsh food game?
3) Can it be made so it is both harsh but not the sole focus of attention, so that the crisis can be manageable without devoting huge attention to the food game? Or would it not be possible to balance such unpredictability with a simple food system?

1) It is not very enjoyable at the moment, but I do hope it could be one day. The scarcity measures and tweaks will probably help. Food has to be important enough to cause at least people to notice if there is a hiccup in the system.

2) Yes, definitely I would enjoy a harsher food game. Granted,  my character is but a lord of a rural region at the moment, producing surplus, so my situation would be better. Others might have different experiences.

3) Food could every now and then cause large scale problems. What I would like to see is a system which most of the time ran smoothly, with perhaps a little bit of competition over food, some scarcity and starvation here and there, but overall not a very big concern. But then from time to time there could be some warning signs that would or would not lead to a major food disaster. A volcano could erupt, cooling the climate, causing failed crops etc. So the effect could be predicted in advance, prepared for... and then you either have the food disaster or not.

Now I do not know how the majority of the players would feel about something like this. Perhaps it is a kin to diseases - while fun to simulate, detrimental to the overall fun factor. I do not know.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on May 07, 2012, 01:39:23 PM
2) Yes, definitely I would enjoy a harsher food game. Granted,  my character is but a lord of a rural region at the moment, producing surplus, so my situation would be better. Others might have different experiences.

Most people I've heard do not enjoy harsh food conditions. They want to fight other humans, not fight the game. Food deficits often make them feel helpless and unable to do anything.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on May 07, 2012, 01:40:21 PM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Telrunya on May 07, 2012, 01:56:37 PM
It's also a reason for war! Well, I'll admit I'm one of those people that do enjoy the food game and would love to see it expanded :)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Anaris on May 07, 2012, 02:41:15 PM
Part of the problem with food has always been its all-or-nothing nature. Either you have enough to feed your entire population, or you start spiraling down into total self-destruction.

If we could make hunger and starvation more gradual, that would go a long way toward making people stress less about the food system.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on May 07, 2012, 03:56:12 PM
The problem with looting for food to get you through hard times is that there has to be someone who has food, who is not willing to sell you any, who you are willing to loot, and who won't just kick your ass as soon as possible. A realm at peace with its neighbors who loots a few hundred bushels from one of them during a drought is pretty likely to be torn apart by those neighbors. So looting for food is almost never an option. It makes powerful, long-term enemies.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on May 07, 2012, 05:52:04 PM
All, please keep in mind that it's a 15% reduction on overall production, not on your surplus only.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: D`Este on May 07, 2012, 06:25:49 PM
So, we have had a 10% decrease, now a 15% decrease and rotting will also be implemented soon.

How will the continent wide production/consumption look like?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on May 07, 2012, 06:50:16 PM
So, we have had a 10% decrease, now a 15% decrease and rotting will also be implemented soon.

How will the continent wide production/consumption look like?

It turns out that island-wide doesn't really matter all that much. Distribution is also very important. Basically, the more feedback we get on what the food situation is like everywhere, the easier we can tune it.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Charles on May 07, 2012, 08:59:45 PM
It turns out that island-wide doesn't really matter all that much. Distribution is also very important. Basically, the more feedback we get on what the food situation is like everywhere, the easier we can tune it.
I suppose it is also true that we cannot base everything off of a few harvests.  It will be atleast a month before you actually know whether you need to do minor tweaking.  Large adjustments are easier to see the need for.  All the SA realms starving does not mean there is actually a problem with the numbers.  Or the 'moot, or lourians.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: ^ban^ on May 08, 2012, 12:55:11 AM
By the way, Tom, you didn't apply a 15% reduction. You added the existing 10% reduction to the new 15% reduction... except the 10% reduction already had effect. The total reduction so far is, in fact, closer to 34%.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on May 08, 2012, 01:14:46 AM
Not true. The actual SQL commands were a multiplication by 0.9 and one by 0.85.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: GoldPanda on May 08, 2012, 01:29:48 AM
Was the multiplication by 0.85 on the original values or on the values after multiplication by 0.9?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on May 08, 2012, 01:33:59 AM
It's also a reason for war! Well, I'll admit I'm one of those people that do enjoy the food game and would love to see it expanded :)

I also enjoy the food game... in D'Hara. Exclusively.

Food is, imo, as much as a reason for war as TMP is. Fact is, war increases the odds of production in your regions plummeting and your gold reserves available for food purchases dwindling as well. Unless you have a rural neighbor that you know you can shove around, war isn't likely to come up as a great solution to starvation.


It turns out that island-wide doesn't really matter all that much. Distribution is also very important. Basically, the more feedback we get on what the food situation is like everywhere, the easier we can tune it.


Distribution is very important indeed, especially to realms who have a deficit and lack D'Hara's trade network and agents. However, island-wide production does matter to those who overcome regional shortages by developing said networks, because it limits the possibilities for such networks to be created.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, as I can see it causing tensions between D'Hara and other importers, for example. Or, more likely, between the other importers themselves, because I'm pretty sure that the 'moot is self-sufficient and that D'Hara could satisfy itself with Barca's exports. But either way, island-wide production *is* important, it's just that the huge stocks don't make it so apparent for now.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: ^ban^ on May 08, 2012, 04:32:03 AM
Not true. The actual SQL commands were a multiplication by 0.9 and one by 0.85.

Based on what I see in update_food, unless you reverted the previous adjustments that is not at all how that works out.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on May 08, 2012, 07:34:10 AM
did something change when rot was implemented?

today:

nebel, dwi
19 bushels of food had to be burnt because they were found to be rotten.
You have 6 granaries with a capacity of 6000 bushels.
You have 3073 bushels of food stored.
(yesterday: 31 bushels rotted.. when unimplemented)

avengmil, bt
no mention of rot
You have 2 granaries with a capacity of 2000 bushels.
You have 407 bushels of food stored.

(yesterday, 4 rotted... when unimplemented)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on May 08, 2012, 08:46:40 AM
Based on what I see in update_food, unless you reverted the previous adjustments that is not at all how that works out.

update_foodpop.php does a lot more than just that two most recent tweaks. It contains the entire food and population rebalancing.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on May 08, 2012, 08:47:05 AM
did something change when rot was implemented?

yes
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Charles on May 17, 2012, 10:17:05 PM
First off, let me say that I am perfectly fine waiting as long as it takes... but I am really looking forward to when trading different resources is added to the game.  Is there any timeline for when those changes will come out?  Again, I am not trying to rush anyone or sound too impatient.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on May 18, 2012, 12:49:20 AM
No.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 01, 2012, 08:47:26 PM
Well,

I'm playing a trader and I faced a huge problem.
As a trader you need fit two offers and also make a profit to broker a deal. I'm seeing many offers, buy and sell offers, of 10 gold.

This is simply another way to exchange food inside the realm.

The traders must have a way to make their own profit based in his own skills.

We could allow the traders always have the POSSIBILITY to get a discount based in his skills AND the POSSIBILITY of raise the selling price DURING the trade, also based on his skills. They of course could have both the discount and the raise.
Example: I'll broke a trade. I'm friend of the seller and I don't want to hurt his profit, so I decide don't get the discount in this deal. As I have not against, or in favor, to he other part, I raise the price to make my profit.
The trader still have to make a profit to broker a trade, to avoid long range food exchanges, but this way he may have more opportunities to make deals.

The Commerce skill, if it have no other name in the game already, would represent the traders ability to negotiate prices while buying and to overvalue products while selling.

I don't know if it will generate much problems to the developers, but this is the role of the traders... I know that the name of the game is "Battle Master", but I wold like to see some real room to this class too.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on June 02, 2012, 03:27:32 AM
Don't you think that will encourage lords and dukes to despise traders and find ways to punish them?  If other lords/stewards take their offer, they get fair prices.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 02, 2012, 04:25:24 AM
I wouldn't want to see a skill that through normal use defrauds a lord of their gold/food. That's a black market style action. If you want a better price through legitimate means, talk to the lord and ask them.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on June 02, 2012, 08:57:21 PM
The basic idea was that traders are more useful than lords doing trading, due to their wider range and ability to broker deals.

As it stands so far, it doesn't work out. So we will add more incentives to include traders. One idea I have is adding fees for lords who complete (but not publish) deals. So basically, for a lord it should be cheaper to put up a "buying 500 food for 100 gold" deal next to the already existing "selling 500 food for 100 gold" one than it is to simply accept it. In fact, it should be so much cheaper that he's willing to put up a "buying 500 for 105" so traders can make a profit.

Which means the fee should be around 10% or so.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Zakilevo on June 02, 2012, 08:59:38 PM
The basic idea was that traders are more useful than lords doing trading, due to their wider range and ability to broker deals.

As it stands so far, it doesn't work out. So we will add more incentives to include traders. One idea I have is adding fees for lords who complete (but not publish) deals. So basically, for a lord it should be cheaper to put up a "buying 500 food for 100 gold" deal next to the already existing "selling 500 food for 100 gold" one than it is to simply accept it. In fact, it should be so much cheaper that he's willing to put up a "buying 500 for 105" so traders can make a profit.

Which means the fee should be around 10% or so.

So does that mean we will be paying 5% more when we post our buy offers?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on June 02, 2012, 09:05:25 PM
So does that mean we will be paying 5% more when we post our buy offers?

Yes, and in exchange, they will probably get filled quicker, since they will be traded over a wider area.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 02, 2012, 09:33:00 PM
As a lord buying food, 10% wouldn't even make me blink. I'd still do it without hesitation. At the rate food rots, at least a third, if not more, of it will rot before I ever get to use it. I would much rather have the food right now, and know I have it, than post an offer and hope someone will fill it. Like they say: a bushel in the warehouse is worth two in the market.

I don't think this penalty will do anything at all.

IMO, what would help traders the most, is an option to partial fill orders somehow. The need to match orders exactly really stifles things.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on June 02, 2012, 09:41:36 PM
As a lord buying food, 10% wouldn't even make me blink. I'd still do it without hesitation. At the rate food rots, at least a third, if not more, of it will rot before I ever get to use it. I would much rather have the food right now, and know I have it, than post an offer and hope someone will fill it. Like they say: a bushel in the warehouse is worth two in the market.

I don't think this penalty will do anything at all.

IMO, what would help traders the most, is an option to partial fill orders somehow. The need to match orders exactly really stifles things.

My problem with traders right now is that there are no orders to fill.  Not even large, unbalanced orders.  There's just a bunch of buy orders and an occasional realm only sell order.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Vellos on June 02, 2012, 11:56:23 PM
Two problems:
1. As noted, partially filling orders would be nice. My trader has a big pile of profit staring him in the face.... and can't access it, because partial orders don't work.

2. Unprofitable trade needs to be possible. Sometimes I stand to gain from an unprofitable trade; such as if it manages to fuel money into a region in which I have a significant oath. Let's say I make a 200 gold transaction, and lose 20 gold on it. If the income of that region rises 200 gold, and I have an oath for 30%, I just gained considerably. It's not mere altruistic nationalism: trading at a loss is a valuable tool for reaping personal rewards and for making political allies.

With both of those, in my own experience, a significant amount of new trading could open up.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 03, 2012, 12:02:45 AM
Two problems:
1. As noted, partially filling orders would be nice. My trader has a big pile of profit staring him in the face.... and can't access it, because partial orders don't work.

2. Unprofitable trade needs to be possible. Sometimes I stand to gain from an unprofitable trade; such as if it manages to fuel money into a region in which I have a significant oath. Let's say I make a 200 gold transaction, and lose 20 gold on it. If the income of that region rises 200 gold, and I have an oath for 30%, I just gained considerably. It's not mere altruistic nationalism: trading at a loss is a valuable tool for reaping personal rewards and for making political allies.

With both of those, in my own experience, a significant amount of new trading could open up.

1. As a lord, I don't want partially filling orders to be implemented. By NOT having that ability, I can offer different prices for different amounts of food. For instance, right now, I offer 30 gold/100 bushels for food purchases of 500 bushels or 1000 bushels. But, I offer only 20 gold per 100 bushels for trades set up at 100 bushels a pop. I also have 10 gold per 100 bushel trades set up for anyone wanting to do my region a favor and sell me food at a cheaper price/at a loss.

2. I would agree that would be a good implementation.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Eithad on June 03, 2012, 12:26:21 AM
I like Tom's idea, filling an order costs the lord a bit extra (to arrange transport and what not) but posting the orders both buy and sell do not. The gap and overhead encourages allowing traders to match offers instead. Don't listen to Indirik.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on June 03, 2012, 04:24:59 AM
Two problems:
1. As noted, partially filling orders would be nice. My trader has a big pile of profit staring him in the face.... and can't access it, because partial orders don't work.

2. Unprofitable trade needs to be possible. Sometimes I stand to gain from an unprofitable trade; such as if it manages to fuel money into a region in which I have a significant oath. Let's say I make a 200 gold transaction, and lose 20 gold on it. If the income of that region rises 200 gold, and I have an oath for 30%, I just gained considerably. It's not mere altruistic nationalism: trading at a loss is a valuable tool for reaping personal rewards and for making political allies.

With both of those, in my own experience, a significant amount of new trading could open up.

1. Lords who want partial trades can already make small offers easily (refresh).

2. Trade offers are personal offers, so those are bonds that go to the lord or steward, not to the region.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 03, 2012, 04:29:55 AM
2. Trade offers are personal offers, so those are bonds that go to the lord or steward, not to the region.

There are still reasons to allow unprofitable trades. It allows you to make friends with lords, and do it indirectly, where sometimes you wouldn't be officially allowed to do so.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on June 03, 2012, 06:08:28 AM
The basic idea was that traders are more useful than lords doing trading, due to their wider range and ability to broker deals.

As it stands so far, it doesn't work out. So we will add more incentives to include traders. One idea I have is adding fees for lords who complete (but not publish) deals. So basically, for a lord it should be cheaper to put up a "buying 500 food for 100 gold" deal next to the already existing "selling 500 food for 100 gold" one than it is to simply accept it. In fact, it should be so much cheaper that he's willing to put up a "buying 500 for 105" so traders can make a profit.

Which means the fee should be around 10% or so.

When will priest/traders be allowed?

I also think that the system shouldn't be designed to penalize all non-traders... Traders are relatively rare. I understand them deserving a special bonus (range is a nice one), but it shouldn't feel like we are being cheated out if we can't find enough traders. Used to be that all food was free, and automatically moved around, hassle-free. Now, everyone needs to think about it. A price has to be set. people have to move. Build marketplaces. And now extra fees? I'm thinking it's not what most people would consider fun.

It all just seems like we are forcing people to spend a lot more gold into the economy that they used to be able to spend on the military before. Without any noticeable boost in income to compensate for all of these new expenses.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on June 03, 2012, 06:20:30 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 03, 2012, 06:23:44 AM
There were fees before, 1 gold per caravan. This is pretty similar.

Not really. I mean before, you could move food around for free. Now, you HAVE to pay for it. Some lords don't want to charge their dukes/leader of the city for food. Some Dukes can convince their lords to give them food for free.

Now, its required to pay for it at least, and the new system requires more interaction from the lords due to the elimination of automatic transfers, so I would argue it is significantly different.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on June 03, 2012, 06:29:07 AM
Not really. I mean before, you could move food around for free. Now, you HAVE to pay for it. Some lords don't want to charge their dukes/leader of the city for food. Some Dukes can convince their lords to give them food for free.

Now, its required to pay for it at least, and the new system requires more interaction from the lords due to the elimination of automatic transfers, so I would argue it is significantly different.

Indeed.

Plus, the fee, from what I was told, never actually worked. It said there was a fee, but it wasn't applied.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on June 03, 2012, 09:09:52 AM
you sure unprofitable trades are not possible? haven't tried it myself, but i don't see why it shouldn't work , if the amount of food matches up.

ie.. someone is buying for 30 per 100, someone is selling at 40 per 100. don't see why you can't match them up and cough up 10 bonds at the same time.

--
i think the old fee was.. 1 gold per shipment, not 1g/caravan
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on June 03, 2012, 09:51:53 AM
So does that mean we will be paying 5% more when we post our buy offers?

No. I explicitly said that the fee would be for ACCEPTING orders, not for posting them. If I made posting orders expensive, there would be even less orders posted. But we want lots and lots of orders posted. What we don't want is lords doing all the trading amongst themselves.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on June 03, 2012, 09:54:32 AM
you sure unprofitable trades are not possible? haven't tried it myself, but i don't see why it shouldn't work , if the amount of food matches up.

They aren't, the game won't allow them. Abuse control.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Brant on June 03, 2012, 06:49:50 PM
would it still be abuse even if the difference were to come out of the trader's pocket?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Penchant on June 03, 2012, 06:57:45 PM
would it still be abuse even if the difference were to come out of the trader's pocket?
That is the issue though I won't go into detail why, in case Tom decide's to allow unprofitable trades.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on June 03, 2012, 09:22:17 PM
eh... it can be done anyway if the trade is the steward/lord

via direct trade
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: LilWolf on June 04, 2012, 10:06:12 AM
What annoys me the most is that you can't make any sort of offer for 50 bushels, but you can make an offer for 150 bushels which seems pretty common. With no option for 50 bushels you can't broker a 150 bushel deal with smaller ones. It's actually impossible since there's no 25 bushels offer either or even 75. You need that exact offer to be able to fill it, making brokering for traders a pretty useless proposition.

This pretty much applies to anything with a 50 in it, though once you go to 250 you run into the option of filling it with a 100 and 150 bushel offer and so on, but those are much rarer to come by than smaller ones, making the order once more difficult if not impossible to fill.

So I'm stuck looking at sell orders for 20 or 40 or 60 bushels and can't do anything with them. They're completely useless.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Eithad on June 04, 2012, 10:49:09 AM
I agree with lilwolf, having those 20 and 40 bushel offers on the market is a waste of space, I suggest it go from 50 to 100, with no other increments in between.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: DamnTaffer on June 04, 2012, 12:39:27 PM
I agree with lilwolf, having those 20 and 40 bushel offers on the market is a waste of space, I suggest it go from 50 to 100, with no other increments in between.

That makes trying to transfer food from a low production region basically impossible.

There are still reasons to allow unprofitable trades. It allows you to make friends with lords, and do it indirectly, where sometimes you wouldn't be officially allowed to do so.

Or perhaps to move food throughout a realm or dutchy.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 04, 2012, 08:19:46 PM
Lets use Tom idea, but differently.

The penalty to a lord accepting offers must really HURT the deal. And penalties in gold will not hurt the deal. Lords can simply, as they are doing in one of the realms I play, sell the food for 10 gold and, no matter the penalties, in %, you give, the deal still be worthy.

The penalty could be made in the food itself. It Could make Lords think twice before close deals, but also would hurt too much the food suply of the realm if there are no traders.



Another option could be make any character must pay a standard fee for every purchase of food and another equal amount for each increment of 100 bushels. Traders would receive a huge discount in this fee. Something like 50-80% that could rise with skill level.
Example:
Scene 1 As no trader: I'm a lord and I'll close a deal worthy of 50 bushels of food for 10 gold per 100 bushels (5 gold). To make the trade I would need pay standard fixed fee of 30 gold to close the deal. This way my purchase would be 35 gold.
Scene 1 As a trader: I'm a trader and I'll close a deal worthy of 50 bushels of food for 10 gold per 100 bushels (5 gold). To make the trade I would need pay standard fixed fee of 30 gold to close the deal. As I'm a begginer trader I pay only half this amount, this way my purchase would be only 20 gold.

Scene 2 As no trader: I'm a lord and I'll close a deal worthy 500 bushels of food for 20 gold per 100 bushels. In this cae also aplies the 30 gold standard fee to close the deal, as well as another 30 gold for every increment of 100 bushels. A total of 250 gold to close the deal.
Scene 2 As a trader: I'm a trader and I'll close a deal worthy 500 bushels of food for 20 gold per 100 bushels. In this cae also aplies the 30 gold standard fee to close the deal, as well as another 30 gold for every increment of 100 bushels. As a experienced trader I receive a discount of 80% in the fee. The deal will cost only 130 gold.

This fee may be something tax for the region for every deal made.

In this option the trader would be able to see how much he will pay for the product and them discuss with the interested lord the price of the deal. This way would be easy to have a profit. Also the lords will not be too much hurt if they need bought food.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 04, 2012, 08:58:03 PM
The idea is not to make traders *required*. It is to make using traders more attractive. Fees on the order you propose would make trading completely unprofitable, even for experienced trader, and simply impossible for inexperienced traders.

Again, we are trying to control player behavior with the stick. Players hate this approach. We need to incentivize traders, not penalize lords.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on June 04, 2012, 10:07:32 PM
um.. bring back luxury goods in some form? further away, etc... higher chance of "free" gold.

---
does not solve the problem of lack of offers.

---
stranger way of doing things..

lords/stewards do not get to complete trade.

when trade offers expire (ie.. no trader zip around matching them), the game automatically match up any and all offers that's within range somehow... (sunset turn change script?) - the profit from mismatched prices.... well it just disappears into the thin air? or maybe the banker should get a cut?

all offers to stay up at bog standard length of 7 days?

downside.. if you really need things in a hurry... you can't do it without trader... but then again, since offers expires left right and centre, you might be lucky and get matched up with an expiring one on any given day.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 04, 2012, 10:41:11 PM
You are rigth, Indirik.

How did you made a role to the Adventures?
You simply said that only adventures can repair equipments and talk to wizards and things like that.

The role of the Heros?
They die bravely bringing honor to your family, give bonuses to their units, may get followers wherever they go and may inspire people with their deeds.

The priests?
They speaky about her gods to the people and only them may do this. They also are able to make the population of a region throw out their lord in favor to their gods. They travel in a different way as well.


The classes have their particularities, making them have a game in their own, and we must give something like that to the traders too. Some kind of ability, or abilities that only they may do and make worthy choose the class. I think that people that play traders like to play the commerce warfare.

Products
There could be not-essential products that only traders could buy/sell.
It could come from NPCs and the trader will sell it to PCs or this also may work well with a estate system were people may build their own shops in their estates. (maybe both options together?)

Caravan web
There could be an option to create an caravan web to speed the transfers between regions. The trader will need have a caravan in each region that the transfer in "pass". I don't know exactly which bonuses, but some kind of unkeep will be necessary.

If we go to something more oriented to PCvsNPCs, them we would have many other options to make the class desirable.

I think that this will not harm other players and will make play as a trader more fun.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on June 05, 2012, 12:14:12 AM
The idea is not to make traders *required*. It is to make using traders more attractive. Fees on the order you propose would make trading completely unprofitable, even for experienced trader, and simply impossible for inexperienced traders.

Again, we are trying to control player behavior with the stick. Players hate this approach. We need to incentivize traders, not penalize lords.

I agree in theory, though with the current system lords have all the say.  i.e. there is nothing really for traders to do when lords post few to no sell orders, and the price per bushel for sell orders are much higher than buy.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 05, 2012, 01:02:20 AM
The idea is not to make traders *required*. It is to make using traders more attractive. Fees on the order you propose would make trading completely unprofitable, even for experienced trader, and simply impossible for inexperienced traders.

Again, we are trying to control player behavior with the stick. Players hate this approach. We need to incentivize traders, not penalize lords.

I forgot to question something.
How can't you see how a trader may make profit?

If a lord will spend 35 gold to make a deal by his own, using the scene 1 example, and through a trader he may spend only 25 (including 5 gold for trader profit) why he will not make the deal?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Vellos on June 05, 2012, 01:26:08 AM
1. As a lord, I don't want partially filling orders to be implemented. By NOT having that ability, I can offer different prices for different amounts of food. For instance, right now, I offer 30 gold/100 bushels for food purchases of 500 bushels or 1000 bushels. But, I offer only 20 gold per 100 bushels for trades set up at 100 bushels a pop. I also have 10 gold per 100 bushel trades set up for anyone wanting to do my region a favor and sell me food at a cheaper price/at a loss.

Meh, then make a checkbox: "allow partial completion" or "don't allow partial completion."
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 05, 2012, 02:07:06 AM
@mykavykos: you proposed a system where a trader would have to pay a surcharge of, essentially, 6 or so gold per 100. That means that if a lord was willing to pay 30, the trader would have to find a sell order of under 24.

I really can't see any such system being implemented.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Penchant on June 05, 2012, 02:15:47 AM
Well one thing I was thinking of that could help with trade is lets say lord a is selling 500 bushels for 150 while lord b is buying 400 bushels for 150 and lord b could just get extra bushels. If this was allowed where the buyer gets more then asked it would allow for more trade though likely not a ton since it requires the buyer to be paying a higher unit price to end up making it so the seller gets all the gold that the seller asked for, but if selling 500 bushels for 150 while 450 are being bought for 175 then the extra gold goes to the trader with the the extra food going once again to the buyer. Also if it could be set up where the extra food goes to the trader if the trader is lord that would be a bonus for traders.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 05, 2012, 04:47:43 AM
So, I play two lord characters, both lords of cities. The way I work is to try and make sure I always have Buy orders open. That way people can always sell me food, if they want. And not just the cheesy 10/100 orders, but serious Buy offers. Then whenever I am traveling, or whenever I feel like it, I check the market and buy any orders that look good.

I decided to work out what would have to happen for me to decide to simply post offers, and let traders fill them for me. I can think of three things:

1) being unable to fill orders. I.e. lords can only post and hope a trader does it. I think this is unworkable, but list it for the sake of completeness.

2) Extortionate fees for non-traders. A simple 10-15% increase won't stop me. If you start getting to 50% or more, that might start making me think before I hit the button. But I will still do it if I think it is important.

3) greatly reduced availability of trades for lords. I can think of two things off-hand. First, restrict lords to trading with adjacent regions only. Second, make newly posted orders visible only to traders for the first three days after they are posted. Lords can only see them once they are 4 or more days old. This allows the traders to get an exclusive shot at all new offers before lords can act on them.

In addition, make more orders available to traders. Make it so traders can always see trade offers in their trader bonus range. (100 miles + skill based range). Then when they are actually at a marketplace, give them the extra 400 miles of range.

And finally, let traders partial fill orders. If it is that important to some lords that they not be partial filled, the let that be an option when posting.

But as things stand now, my trader on EC is feeling pretty useless. He's also a steward, and can't even find food to buy, let alone matching sets of orders to broker.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 05, 2012, 04:58:56 AM
Two more things:
1) if you add on extortinate fees for trading, margraves will simply raise taxes on their lords to compensate. This really won't accomplish anything.

2) allow traders to send a message to any lord who has an offer posted on the marketplace. This will allow the trader to negotiate with the lord to get them to post orders that will let them broker a deal. The lord may have a sell posted for 250 when the trader needs a 200. Or the trader my be able to broker if the lord is willing to pay a little more, or accept a little less. Etc. As it stands now, traders are essentially silent little robots wandering around from market to market, never talking to anyone, because you may be a 4 day journey away from being able to contact some who can probably help you broker a deal. So you never talk to them, and the deal goes unfinished.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Penchant on June 05, 2012, 05:08:48 AM
Two more things:
1) if you add on extortinate fees for trading, margraves will simply raise taxes on their lords to compensate. This really won't accomplish anything.
Only possible for the margrave/duke combos which is still very popular we shouldn't base it off this if we are trying to get rid of it always happening. And if the fee went both ways margraves would be smart and make the buy orders so the rural lords have to pay the fee instead of them, and if they don't want pay they just post the offers and let the traders do their job. Just pointing out that in my opinion the idea will actually work and I do like all your ideas.  :)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 05, 2012, 05:52:53 AM
Interaction is a good thing, but I'm experiencing the lack of answer very common in the game, that also one of the rights of the players.

As steward, I'm trying buy food in EC and I sent many letters, receiving no answers. So, I think that a system that allow you to message the lord will be nice, but only will get result with those who care in answer.

I don't have the same time playing this game as others here, mas in my time playing this game I saw that things not mechanically supported or militaristic, will fall in the mists.
So, for this to work, in my opinion, there must be an option of "Bargain" or something like that where the trader make an offer, as when you change your share, and a message appear to the seller, or buyer, informing that he have a deal to look at. After sending the offer, the trader would have the possibility to send a letter.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Velax on June 05, 2012, 05:57:14 AM
2) allow traders to send a message to any lord who has an offer posted on the marketplace. This will allow the trader to negotiate with the lord to get them to post orders that will let them broker a deal. The lord may have a sell posted for 250 when the trader needs a 200. Or the trader my be able to broker if the lord is willing to pay a little more, or accept a little less. Etc. As it stands now, traders are essentially silent little robots wandering around from market to market, never talking to anyone, because you may be a 4 day journey away from being able to contact some who can probably help you broker a deal. So you never talk to them, and the deal goes unfinished.

I like this idea.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on June 05, 2012, 02:05:20 PM
I had put some cheesy 10 gold buy offers before everyone was made to be deficitary. To my surprise, they were accepted. I put them up again and they were accepted again.

Sure, it was from a friendly realm, but still. :P

Can't wait for the excess food to be eaten or rotten... Trading is really bad lately. I don't like the idea of people forgetting they should trade, or getting used to not bothering with it.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 05, 2012, 03:23:40 PM
@mykavykos: yes, people may choose to not answer. But at least they will have a choice, and the traders will have an option.

@penchant: true, only duke/margrave will have the option of taxing tthe lords. But margraves also make a lot of gold under the new system.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 05, 2012, 03:59:35 PM
@indirik: I only said that this option have to be backed by a mechanical system. I don't disagree with you.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 05, 2012, 05:30:53 PM
Yes, a mechanics-based offers system may be nice. We had discussed adding one under the old caravan system. It may be something that is a bit too complex right now, and could be added later.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on June 05, 2012, 10:12:08 PM
3) greatly reduced availability of trades for lords. I can think of two things off-hand. First, restrict lords to trading with adjacent regions only. Second, make newly posted orders visible only to traders for the first three days after they are posted. Lords can only see them once they are 4 or more days old. This allows the traders to get an exclusive shot at all new offers before lords can act on them.

I like this. It makes traders especially important when food is scarce, and needs to come in quickly.


The other option I am thinking about is related to food rot. Right now, food on the market doesn't rot, but it should. I would have the rot reduced considerably for deals brokers (not completed!) by traders - that way pure traders doing the trading game profit from this, but region lords who become traders to game the system don't.


And finally, yes a posting fee for non-traders. The logic being that only traders can access the market, and region lords can it, too, but have to pay some NPC trader to act as a go-between. Those fees would be flat per-deal ones, and much less for posting than for completing. Say 5 gold to post an offer, 10 gold to complete a deal. It's not huge game-changing unfair, but it's enough that over time it matters. A rural region constantly selling its surplus will feel it if every deal costs 10 gold.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on June 05, 2012, 10:45:04 PM
what does that mean really? the bit about rotting deals.

say you've chucked 1k food on a sell deal and have 1k food in the warehouse.
does the warehouse gets hit on rot worth 2k food?

or does the buyer of the 1k food find out his 1k food isn't 1k but what's left that isn't rotted away? (and still pay the money for 1k)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 05, 2012, 11:37:42 PM
If you restrict lords to being able to only trade with adjacent regions you essentially require a trader if a realm is to survive. This will destroy small realms. Not everyone wants to play a trader, so requiring them is a bad idea.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 06, 2012, 12:00:35 AM
You just have to have the food make two hops. Or hope a trade helps you out? Or hope someone becomes a trader?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 06, 2012, 12:07:39 AM
A Lord must have an option to post his offer without pay a fee.

Maybe there could be an option to post an offer only in his own region. Traders treveling in the region and in an market place, would be able to see the offer, but no one else.
If the lord want to post an offer in the market, so then he will must pay the fee.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 06, 2012, 12:08:21 AM
You just have to have the food make two hops. Or hope a trade helps you out? Or hope someone becomes a trader?

Two hops? What if I am trying to get food from 6 regions away? That's impossible with that change.

"Hope someone becomes a trader?" Seriously?

If you implement this, you might as well allow us to change the IR so we can order someone to be a trader or else a realm can easily be doomed with this change.

I thought the point of parts of the game was to increase the fun not increase the time input while not adding any fun? By trying to add too much to the trading game you're killing the ability to operate without a trader. This is like saying a region that has more than X%  pagan peasants in it will start spontaneously losing stats and revolting just because you haven't had a priest make non-pagan followers.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on June 06, 2012, 12:22:13 AM
If you restrict lords to being able to only trade with adjacent regions you essentially require a trader if a realm is to survive. This will destroy small realms. Not everyone wants to play a trader, so requiring them is a bad idea.

I agree. Allowing traders to see the deal a bit earlier... sure, the idea might have merit, though I doubt it'd give them a significant edge and would probably just needlessly complicate lords' lives. But restricting trade in such a way? That would be utterly awful.

And any change that makes traders really important should at least be preceded by allowing priests to be traders.

Traders' range is already a significant boost, though. I don't see why they need anything more than this. Just boost the range if you deem it unsatisfying.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 06, 2012, 12:33:59 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Eithad on June 06, 2012, 12:43:56 AM
I believe the current range for lords is 400miles, this is actually a significant distance. Instead of restricting it to adjacent regions only, the range can be cut down a bit. To give an example from Riverholm to Suville is 272miles and is 4 regions away. Something along the lines of 300miles should be fine.

Also the restricting offers for 3 days sounds nice, but the time could also probably be cut down a bit too to not hamper food movement too much when regions are starving.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 06, 2012, 12:55:40 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Penchant on June 06, 2012, 01:00:40 AM
Also the restricting offers for 3 days sounds nice, but the time could also probably be cut down a bit too to not hamper food movement too much when regions are starving.
I disagree with cutting it down to help starving regions as thats the opposite of what we want because the way I see it with the 3 day limit if lords don't want their region to be starving they need to post offers for traders to do. I also disagree with the neccesity of s realm saying they need one of their nobles to be a trader because no matter the system I don't see it being true since I being a trader will surely hang around your realm as long as you want though if I am not making a profit I might start forcing the realm to pay me for coming which is doable.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 06, 2012, 01:11:41 AM
I don't know how its working in Atamara, but in EC, where I have a steward/trader and a Lord, the system is not working.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Velax on June 06, 2012, 06:59:06 AM
You just have to have the food make two hops. Or hope a trade helps you out? Or hope someone becomes a trader?

Doesn't reducing lord range to one region do exactly what you said they shouldn't? Penalise lords rather than reward traders.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on June 06, 2012, 12:30:03 PM
Here's my take on everything that was discussed:


I want to make brokering more competitive, so these are the changes I am considering. Some of them may seem like a stick, but they are really just things I wanted to add anyways:
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on June 06, 2012, 03:02:50 PM
I don't know how its working in Atamara, but in EC, where I have a steward/trader and a Lord, the system is not working.

How is the system not working? Please be specific.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on June 06, 2012, 03:03:36 PM
Doesn't reducing lord range to one region do exactly what you said they shouldn't? Penalise lords rather than reward traders.

It gives the Lords what they had with ox carts. It's a step backwards, but not unheard of.

And still better than oxcarts since the trades are instant.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 06, 2012, 03:46:17 PM
There are nowhere near enough offers available on EC for a trader to function. In addition, the offers posted are always for odd quantities, or at ridiculous prices.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 06, 2012, 07:39:02 PM
There are nowhere near enough offers available on EC for a trader to function. In addition, the offers posted are always for odd quantities, or at ridiculous prices.

Exactly.

   1. Implement rot for food on the market - this should be done anyways because otherwise putting food on the market on a deal you don't expect anyone to accept is a way to save food from rotting. The amount of rot would depend on a "virtual time", representing travel time for food, which will NOT be added, i.e. trading remains instant, but we simulate the travel time of the food through rot. In other words: The further away your trade partner, the more food will be lost in transit.
Brokered deals will have dramatically reduced rot. Either half or even none at all. Since only traders can broker...

Food rot is good. Hurting the food is the better option to make Lords think twice before trade.

   2. 48 hours delay for offers to become available for trading, but they are available for brokering immediately. This represents the time delay of moving food around first to the market place and then to the recipient vs. sending it from the one to the other directly via a broker.

I still think that 3 days is better. A Lord may follow her food supplies and act much time before this 3 days. And it will give the trader players more time since maybe you will need talk with the lords and answers takes some time.

   3. I'm thinking about some advantage for unrestricted offers, but haven't yet come up with something good. But I want to encourage people on that. The only idea I have this far is to make the black market simply a copy of the regular market with all restrictions lifted. If restricted traders aren't 100% safe, I believe more people wouldn't bother to restrict them.

Ok, but what is advantage for those who post unrestricted offers? The chance to arrest a enemy trader? And to me the black market must be something really criminal. Like broker a trade getting part of the payment for himself or something like that.

   4. We need automatic offers, on the old system of "if stockpile > x then put y bushels on the market for z gold" resp. "if stockpile < x then post an offer for y bushels for z gold". It needs a bit of work to integrate it with the new tax system and all, but it can work (bonds required could be taken from the tax collection, bonds gained would be added to the tax income).

A good addiction, but there must be something that allow multiple orders. I really don't see orders of 500 bushels, or 1000 bushels, helping. I don't know any region that reach this amount of food easily.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on June 06, 2012, 08:21:43 PM
We need automatic offers, on the old system of "if stockpile > x then put y bushels on the market for z gold" resp. "if stockpile < x then post an offer for y bushels for z gold". It needs a bit of work to integrate it with the new tax system and all, but it can work (bonds required could be taken from the tax collection, bonds gained would be added to the tax income).


i don't know... if you are going to tie it back into the tax system again, maybe it'll make more sense for the whole thing (manual offers for lords/stewards) to be tied into the tax system.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 06, 2012, 10:07:54 PM
i don't know... if you are going to tie it back into the tax system again, maybe it'll make more sense for the whole thing (manual offers for lords/stewards) to be tied into the tax system.

I agree.
When I made trades with my steward I finished the deal with my own bonds. In true I needed create bonds to make the deal and then I will need to request compensation from my liege.
If the whole system was based in tax, then the steward, or lord, will not need to have the gold, or bonds, to make the deal.
Only traders would have to have bonds to broker a trade.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 06, 2012, 10:31:56 PM
  • Implement rot for food on the market - this should be done anyways because otherwise putting food on the market on a deal you don't expect anyone to accept is a way to save food from rotting. The amount of rot would depend on a "virtual time", representing travel time for food, which will NOT be added, i.e. trading remains instant, but we simulate the travel time of the food through rot. In other words: The further away your trade partner, the more food will be lost in transit.
    Brokered deals will have dramatically reduced rot. Either half or even none at all. Since only traders can broker...
  • 48 hours delay for offers to become available for trading, but they are available for brokering immediately. This represents the time delay of moving food around first to the market place and then to the recipient vs. sending it from the one to the other directly via a broker.
  • I'm thinking about some advantage for unrestricted offers, but haven't yet come up with something good. But I want to encourage people on that. The only idea I have this far is to make the black market simply a copy of the regular market with all restrictions lifted. If restricted traders aren't 100% safe, I believe more people wouldn't bother to restrict them.
  • We need automatic offers, on the old system of "if stockpile > x then put y bushels on the market for z gold" resp. "if stockpile < x then post an offer for y bushels for z gold". It needs a bit of work to integrate it with the new tax system and all, but it can work (bonds required could be taken from the tax collection, bonds gained would be added to the tax income).
I like #1. Trades brokered by traders not being subject to rot at all. (Note: Once food offered for trade is subject to rot, don't forget to rot food if the deal is canceled by the lord, or if the trade time expires, as well as if the deal is accepted by a lord.)

I like #2. 48 hours seems like a decent time. Enough time for traders who are on the ball to see it and act, if they can. Not so much as to be deadly to a lord who really needs food *now*.

I like #4. I would suggest that the food be added to the market in small increments, perhaps in 50 or 100 bushel lots. These massive orders of 500+ bushels are just way too hard to fill. Also, perhaps all auto-orders could be Open orders?

#3... I don't think this will do anything. If I want the trade with only my realm, the fact that some dishonest trader *could* use the order anyway will not convince me to use open orders. After all, *any* trader can use the open offers, but only the bad guys will use the black market, and they stand a chance of getting caught if they do. *Some* chance to catch the thief is better than *no* chance to catch the thief.

Some additional ideas:
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 06, 2012, 10:35:14 PM
Doesn't reducing lord range to one region do exactly what you said they shouldn't? Penalise lords rather than reward traders.
Yes, it does. But in order to add advantages for traders, we do have to restrict some options for lords. The alternative is to just keep dumping advantages on traders, and pretty soon they will be able to just see all trade offers on the whole island. There is only so much we can add to one side before we have to start taking away from the other side. I would be happy to advocate more bonuses for traders if we can think of some.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Vellos on June 07, 2012, 01:23:46 AM
  • We were talking about fees for accepting offers. How about we turn this around, and put up fees for posting offers? Make Open offers free to post, but implement fees for restricted offers. Allies Only could be a fee of a couple gold, say 2-5 gold per offer. Realm Only to be twice that, or 4-10 gold per offer. (Not sure what a good fee would be to give incentive for rural lords to post Open offers, but not make it extortionate if they don't. I think even a small fee would convince may rural lords to start posting less restrictive orders.) Rationale is that it takes time/money for the Marketplace to screen traders to meet the desired restrictions. For Open offers they just let anyone buy it. But for restricted offers they have to verify the identity of the trader.

This. Have fees for restricted offers. That's the easiest way to get unrestricted offers. Not huge fees, but fees. I would think 40-100 gold in revenue is a reasonable take for a small rural in a harvest period. Which makes me think that a fee of 4-10 gold for restricted offers is probably fine.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 07, 2012, 01:41:56 AM
I like #1. Trades brokered by traders not being subject to rot at all. (Note: Once food offered for trade is subject to rot, don't forget to rot food if the deal is canceled by the lord, or if the trade time expires, as well as if the deal is accepted by a lord.)

I like #2. 48 hours seems like a decent time. Enough time for traders who are on the ball to see it and act, if they can. Not so much as to be deadly to a lord who really needs food *now*.

I like #4. I would suggest that the food be added to the market in small increments, perhaps in 50 or 100 bushel lots. These massive orders of 500+ bushels are just way too hard to fill. Also, perhaps all auto-orders could be Open orders?

#3... I don't think this will do anything. If I want the trade with only my realm, the fact that some dishonest trader *could* use the order anyway will not convince me to use open orders. After all, *any* trader can use the open offers, but only the bad guys will use the black market, and they stand a chance of getting caught if they do. *Some* chance to catch the thief is better than *no* chance to catch the thief.

Some additional ideas:
  • Restrict the length of time for which a restricted order can be posted. Max length of 4 days for Realm Only, 7 days for Allies Only, and the full 14 days only for Open offers? This may conflict with the auto-orders, though: if the auto-order is restricted and gets canceled, the auto-system would just repost it next turn. So maybe if an auto-order expires, then it won't be reposted for another 4 or 7 days?
  • We were talking about fees for accepting offers. How about we turn this around, and put up fees for posting offers? Make Open offers free to post, but implement fees for restricted offers. Allies Only could be a fee of a couple gold, say 2-5 gold per offer. Realm Only to be twice that, or 4-10 gold per offer. (Not sure what a good fee would be to give incentive for rural lords to post Open offers, but not make it extortionate if they don't. I think even a small fee would convince may rural lords to start posting less restrictive orders.) Rationale is that it takes time/money for the Marketplace to screen traders to meet the desired restrictions. For Open offers they just let anyone buy it. But for restricted offers they have to verify the identity of the trader.

Personally I don't think we need more advantages to traders or disadvantages to lords beyond what Tom has suggested.

Sure, EC may have less trade offers than intended (or non-existant) but that just means that the political and military situation on EC is perhaps a lot more food stable than other continents. Maybe each realm is quite balance in the purchases that they need to make and can provide for themselves with only a few small exceptions.

All I know is that we can't make broad code changes that effect every island for problems that are only occuring on a single island, when those changes may create obvious other issues on the ones that are working. If it is a balance issue, then that can be addressed without code changes which may mess up the trading system. What I can see is that the food trading system on Atamara is working quite well. I have had multiple traders from multiple realms not only work with my realm, but seek to organize large trade brokerings across areas. One trader recently completed a buy offer a lord of my realm had posted for 700 bushels. (Not 7-100 bushels offers, but a single 700 bushel offer). Then a trader in my realm used this new amount of food to broker a trade to complete the 1000 bushel offer that I had on to purchase food for the past few days to a week.

This seems to be working to me, since my region alone has completed nearly 2000 bushels worth of offers in the past week to 10 days. I operate with the stigma of making very large bushel sets with a high(er) price so that traders who work hard to get food for my region, can be rewarded with a price increase for profitability. But if they simply are seeking small profits or a breakeven trade then I have less profitable 100 bushel offers. All of my offers are unrestricted, and personally I'd be quite happy if there was an option to buy/sell food to an enemy realm, as long as this was visible by the banker of both realms or something.

To me, this seems like a trading system that is working well. Perhaps the Dukes and lords of EC haven't gotten fully into it yet, or are brokering only deals in their realm. I don't know. But, I know that Atamara has a lot of trades going on, and it makes it interesting for me to watch as well getting all the purchase notifications from different people.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 07, 2012, 01:57:11 AM
I agree that we can't make sweeping changes based on one island. But we also can't let things stagnate everywhere because trade may be working right for one city on one island.

Unfortunately we don't have a good baseline. Dwilight got overloaded with food for so long that there were literally hundreds of thousands of bushels available and all reals were producing surpluses, EC has a lot of burned regions, FEI has broken trade distances, and AT has two very large allied blocks. No island is "typical" or has a varied enough state to really be called average.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 07, 2012, 02:01:52 AM
I agree that we can't make sweeping changes based on one island. But we also can't let things stagnate everywhere because trade may be working right for one city on one island.

Unfortunately we don't have a good baseline. Dwilight got overloaded with food for so long that there were literally hundreds of thousands of bushels available and all reals were producing surpluses, EC has a lot of burned regions, FEI has broken trade distances, and AT has two very large allied blocks. No island is "typical" or has a varied enough state to really be called average.

You're right of course. I understand as well that my city is no sure indicator, and I'm a bit biased because my city is now fed, when it used to be starving, solely due to the new trading system allowing me to purchase food easier from across the continent through less traders.

Any change, we'll adjust to, but I also just dislike using the "stick" to change things. Any situation where traders are "necessary" to play the game, I won't support. If you make a system where warriors are "necessary" that makes a lot more sense in a "Battle"-master, than traders. While it is a class that some really enjoy, forcing at least one trader per realm I don't feel is productive with our current player base. If we had double the players, then sure, but not now.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 07, 2012, 02:27:34 AM
Yes, we don't want to make traders required. I'm just tossing lots of ideas against the wall, and seeing which ones stick. Sometimes that means that I propose things that don't necessarily work. But I trust Tom to not take those and put them in the game. :)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on June 07, 2012, 07:25:55 AM
I agree.
When I made trades with my steward I finished the deal with my own bonds. In true I needed create bonds to make the deal and then I will need to request compensation from my liege.
If the whole system was based in tax, then the steward, or lord, will not need to have the gold, or bonds, to make the deal.
Only traders would have to have bonds to broker a trade.
i don't think steward paying out of own pocket is that big an issue. i mean.. stewards could also be making a bit on the side if they are doing the selling. they should ask for a bigger estate (higher income) to cover trades if they are in buying regions. only thing is possibly a steward cut or something off the lord's cut if their estate is maxed and still not enough (unlikely)

and.. no.. traders don't need bonds, since they are not allowed to make a loss anyway. so they can't use up bonds when brokering.

the problem with going tax was that you could end up with negative income for the region.. for poor regions.... and kill off a load of buildings, etc... in return for "free" food. (and no income)

so i think if you are going back to the tax route, some sort of region coffers that gets filled from the lord's tax and / or manually paid in by the lord would be needed. no funds in the coffer, no trade.
----
it might also be useful to allow a lord/steward to put up offers anywhere. but obviously still cannot fulfil an offer unless at a market.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on June 07, 2012, 02:43:41 PM
FEI has broken trade distances

And the Colonies. We had a character switch class (voluntarily) because the distance of 108 miles was too far to trade.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on June 07, 2012, 03:06:52 PM
Clarification: By "from tax" I don't mean that a debt is possible. What I do mean is that money in the tax coffers could be spent. It's a bit tricky to explain, but really easy to grasp once you see it.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Darksun on June 07, 2012, 03:51:43 PM
Yes, we don't want to make traders required.

Then give the "banker" the abilities of a trader by default? The abilities would stack if the banker was also a trader? This way every realm is assured the basic abilities of at least one trader.

Maybe this is unbalanced with the current level of knowledge/reports that the banker has, but provides a potential solution that would relieve the trader problem. Also makes the banker a prime target for assassins or enemy realms in general.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 07, 2012, 05:16:55 PM
That's an interesting idea.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on June 07, 2012, 09:22:46 PM
So... essentially the Banker has one extra subclass - Trader?  :-/
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 07, 2012, 09:38:59 PM
At least partially, I suppose. They don't need all trader abilities, just allow them to broker trade deals. Solves the "Our realm doesn't have a trader" complaint. Makes bankers very useful, and gives them a true purpose in every realm.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on June 07, 2012, 09:46:58 PM
At least partially, I suppose. They don't need all trader abilities, just allow them to broker trade deals. Solves the "Our realm doesn't have a trader" complaint. Makes bankers very useful, and gives them a true purpose in every realm.

Seems to me it's saying "we don't really have anything high level for you to do, just go be a common trader".  All the other council members have very specific privileges that only they can do well. :-\
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Darksun on June 07, 2012, 10:14:28 PM
The banker is the only person with a realm wide view of food at his disposal in real time. That would make him a pretty important trader - not just a "common" one. Traders make trades to make themselves rich. A banker makes trades because he has a sworn duty to the council to do so.

Just my thought.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 07, 2012, 11:32:06 PM
Well what is being stated is that the banker currently doesn't really have anything that they really are needed in order to get done.

Generals, Judges, and Rulers all have very specific things they are useful for, while Bankers don't at this time. I know its been stated over and over again that new ideas are being thought up.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on June 07, 2012, 11:54:05 PM
Then give the "banker" the abilities of a trader by default?

No.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Vellos on June 08, 2012, 01:01:13 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on June 08, 2012, 03:35:10 PM
There's nothing stopping a banker from becoming a trader--except for being a priest or hero. But if that's the case, then he's probably not interested in food, right?

Bankers are the head of the Trader caste, just as Generals are the head of the courtier/hero/warriors, Ruler in charge of diplomats, Judge for courtiers.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on June 08, 2012, 07:22:05 PM
There's nothing stopping a banker from becoming a trader--except for being a priest or hero.

Exactly. If the banker wants to be a trader, he can. No need to give it to him for free or force it.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 11, 2012, 11:22:30 PM
Only to prove what I'm saying about the system nor working for traders.

"Message sent to everyone in message group "Lords " (24 recipients)
Why would the difference be essential? When our lords can either put their offers in the cities or accept buy offers from the dukes? That would benefit our traders, but there isn't any incentive on both rural lords and dukes. If dukes are too busy, their stewards can act as traders and travel around as well."

In other words "we will not give any space to traders here"

This was the Prime Minister afters saying that all offers must be created at its lowest price to keep the gold to "bigger projects".

The difference mentioned would create a "waste" of 120 gold in the total amount produced in the entire realm. But still they think that is too much.

For this reason I think that the trader must have a way to have profit regardless of the prices set by the lords.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 11, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
Only to prove what I'm saying about the system nor working for traders.

"Message sent to everyone in message group "Lords " (24 recipients)
Why would the difference be essential? When our lords can either put their offers in the cities or accept buy offers from the dukes? That would benefit our traders, but there isn't any incentive on both rural lords and dukes. If dukes are too busy, their stewards can act as traders and travel around as well."

In other words "we will not give any space to traders here"

This was the Prime Minister afters saying that all offers must be created at its lowest price to keep the gold to "bigger projects".

The difference mentioned would create a "waste" of 120 gold in the total amount produced in the entire realm. But still they think that is too much.

For this reason I think that the trader must have a way to have profit regardless of the prices set by the lords.

That has nothing to do with the system not working for traders. That has to do with your characters being power played by the other characters in your realm. That's a play by the Dukes to force food prices down. Start an outcry against the government, start a revolt, call for a rebellion. Any of these things are legitimate responses to a legitimate action by a realm government.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 12, 2012, 12:03:00 AM
No.

The system don't work.

If a trader can't make a profit he can't trade. If he can't trade he do nothing more than any other carreers do.
I really don't care for the prices, but If the game developers will allow traders in the game, so they must do something that allow the players to use the class.
Any class must be playable regardless of the will of the other players.

If a realm say that is forbiden to preach, and I as a priest start to spread the word of my gods, I will probably be arrested and banned, but I CAN preach.

As a trader I CAN'T trade anything if the lords don't agree. The class is useless.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 12, 2012, 12:07:57 AM
No.

The system don't work.

If a trader can't make a profit he can't trade. If he can't trade he do nothing more than any other carreers do.
I really don't care for the prices, but If the game developers will allow traders in the game, so they must do something that allow the players to use the class.
Any class must be playable regardless of the will of the other players.

If a realm say that is forbiden to preach, and I as a priest start to spread the word of my gods, I will probably be arrested and banned, but I CAN preach.

As a trader I CAN'T trade anything if the lords don't agree. The class is useless.

You can still trade as well if you only trade between someone selling 10 gold/100 and buying at 10gold/100. That is STILL trading.

If you don't like it, you can rebel, or go to another realm. Nothing is stopping you. Just because your realm is making a ducal power play doesn't mean it happens everywhere.

Anything that uses only a single realm as an example cannot be proof that a system isn't working.

Edit: Here's an example of why this argument doesn't work: This could have happened just as easily under the old system. If every region set their regions to only sell food at 99 gold per 100 bushels and to only buy food at 1 gold/100 bushels, then trading isn't possible either. At least not in any way a trader wants to trade. Thus, the system hasn't change at all in terms of a coordinated government stopping traders from gaining profit. There is nothing wrong with that from an OOC perspective, as it is a legitimate IC powerplay.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 12, 2012, 12:19:15 AM
No
It seems that you don't know the new system.

To broker a deal a trader MUST make profit. The system will not allow you to do otherwise.
So if there are buy and sell offers of 10 gold, only lords will be able to close the deal. A trader will need a buy offer of at least 15 gold to broker the deal.

The system may work for Lords, it don't work for traders. And is this I'm talking about.
In the actual system traders are a useless class unless people chose to make it useful.

The class must be useful even if none of the players want it. It may be not available, as priests in a realm without religion, but, once they are available, the player must be able to use it.

Many Ideas here were based in the good will of the players and I sincerely don't think that we may count with this.


About the old System
I, as a trader, could buy food from whenever I want and sell tho whoever I want using my caravans. Now I cant do such a thing.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 12, 2012, 12:29:01 AM
No
It seems that you don't know the new system.

To broker a deal a trader MUST make profit. The system will not allow you to do otherwise.
So if there are buy and sell offers of 10 gold, only lords will be able to close the deal. A trader will need a buy offer of at least 15 gold to broker the deal.

The system may work for Lords, it don't work for traders. And is this I'm talking about.
In the actual system traders are a useless class unless people chose to make it useful.

The class must be useful even if none of the players want it. It may be not available, as priests in a realm without religion, but, once they are available, the player must be able to use it.

Many Ideas here were based in the good will of the players and I sincerely don't think that we may count with this.


About the old System
I, as a trader, could buy food from whenever I want and sell tho whoever I want using my caravans. Now I cant do such a thing.

Well I doubt it must be at least 15 gold. If they are selling for 10 gold and buying for 11 gold, you make a profit and would likely be allowed to trade.

And if you must make a profit (and can't just trade for even) then the system is definitely not broken, because I've seen plenty of trades accomplished by traders over the past weeks. While this does not prove that the system is working perfectly, it does show that it isn't completely broken.

You however stated that a trader must make a profit in order to have any reason to trade. Therefore, my statement still stands that you could be prevented from doing such under the old system. If no one bought food for more than X gold, and no one sold food for less than Y gold and Y was greater than X, you'd always lose on trades, and by your logic trading would be impossible.

Traders may not be the most useful class, but we also have a useless government position (Banker), it doesn't mean they aren't trying to make improvements when they can. What is good about this system is that it allows traders to truly broker deals across large distances without having to travel for 2 weeks just to make a single trade. Now you can make 10 trades in a week if you make the right contacts and ask those lords to post the right prices.

It sounds as if you're only trading within your realm.

Also, can you state what realm and on what continent your on? Without context its hard to get an idea for what your arguing for.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 12, 2012, 12:44:14 AM
I'm in Sirion, EC.

In the old system I could, with a looooong journey search for another realms to trade the food I bought. I could buy food for 100 gold and give it to a starving region of my realm for almost nothing. Now I can't. The only thing I can do is sit and wait until a noble with love in his heart decide that I can play my class.

And I admit that I was wrong. A difference of 1 gold is possible.
The banker is not useless. Is their job organize and distribute the food.
As well as is the job of the general coordinate the armies.
Council position are, for default, dependent from players decision. Players have the right to do whatever they want, as stated in the IR.

A class is not the same thing. Think about you as a warrior unable to fight ANYTHING, including monsters. Nothing. Zero. Unless other players agree that they will fight. Where is the fun?

For this reason I'm saying that the system is broken for traders. To the lords I think that it is good. Could be better, but its good. For trader it simply don't work because depend completely upon people, that in the majority, don't care for traders.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 12, 2012, 01:01:15 AM
I'm in Sirion, EC.

In the old system I could, with a looooong journey search for another realms to trade the food I bought. I could buy food for 100 gold and give it to a starving region of my realm for almost nothing. Now I can't. The only thing I can do is sit and wait until a noble with love in his heart decide that I can play my class.

And I admit that I was wrong. A difference of 1 gold is possible.
The banker is not useless. Is their job organize and distribute the food.
As well as is the job of the general coordinate the armies.
Council position are, for default, dependent from players decision. Players have the right to do whatever they want, as stated in the IR.

A class is not the same thing. Think about you as a warrior unable to fight ANYTHING, including monsters. Nothing. Zero. Unless other players agree that they will fight. Where is the fun?

For this reason I'm saying that the system is broken for traders. To the lords I think that it is good. Could be better, but its good. For trader it simply don't work because depend completely upon people, that in the majority, don't care for traders.

From what I can tell this is just a problem of EC not needing as much trade, not a function of the system itself. The system as far as anyone I've talked to on Atamara is working great for both traders and lords. Traders are consistently cashing in 5-10 gold per 100 bushels.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 12, 2012, 01:07:46 AM
Because people want this...

Well. I give up. ^_^

My point is that you mus be able to play your class without the need of cooperate, or beg, to other players.
The cooperation must be something that IMPROVE the experience. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 12, 2012, 01:36:42 AM
As far as I can see, if traders are brokering trades, it's because lords/stewards are lazy. I have yet to see a trade brokered in any of the regions I have a character in. This includes my lord characters on Dwilight and FEI, my steward on EC, and my knights on AT and BT. (All of these are city regions.) I have seen lords sell me food. I have bought food from other regions. But I don't think that any trader has ever brokered any of my trade deals.

It would be great if AT were working as designed. The question then would be why is it working on AT, and not the other islands? Is the food balance right on AT, and really wacky on other islands? Or is your character in Coria in just the right place to take advantage of it?

Personally, I think we really need more feedback from other people on AT. I have heard from at least one duke on AT that they are almost out of food, no one is selling them food, and there are no Sell offers available.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 12, 2012, 02:02:36 AM
As far as I can see, if traders are brokering trades, it's because lords/stewards are lazy. I have yet to see a trade brokered in any of the regions I have a character in. This includes my lord characters on Dwilight and FEI, my steward on EC, and my knights on AT and BT. (All of these are city regions.) I have seen lords sell me food. I have bought food from other regions. But I don't think that any trader has ever brokered any of my trade deals.

It would be great if AT were working as designed. The question then would be why is it working on AT, and not the other islands? Is the food balance right on AT, and really wacky on other islands? Or is your character in Coria in just the right place to take advantage of it?

Personally, I think we really need more feedback from other people on AT. I have heard from at least one duke on AT that they are almost out of food, no one is selling them food, and there are no Sell offers available.

1. I believe a lot of lords are inherently lazy in this game. At least when it comes to food related things.
2. Perhaps Coria is uniquely positioned to take advantage of it since we're right in the middle of the continent, but Atamara is has a very broad spectrum of food realms. We have realms that heavily import food such as Coria, as well as realms that heavily export food such as Strombran and Eston.
3. Coria has two traders (although one just paused) and they are required to get food because all of the food offers which I'm buying food from are from over 500-1000 miles away. In other words, they are on the far end of the continent. Some of them are closer, but still outside of the range of my city.

What I think the problem is that the food is TOO balanced on EC perhaps. If realms are neither heavily importing or heavily exporting then they have no need to put a lot of time into trade. They can trade once every week or so outside of the realm to even things out and be fine, while having lords trade amongst themselves in realm.

However, if someone has to heavily export/import on the range of over 500 bushels or more every week then they have a lot of encouragement to make contacts in foreign realms and use traders to gather food from very far away.

It wasn't long ago that Coria was importing up to 750 bushels every week just to feed its city, and that was up to 1000 if possible before the size of city changes and before the city went into starvation.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 12, 2012, 02:05:15 AM
Anyone can tell me how this was possible?

"Deal brokered successfully, you have made a profit of 0 gold."

I just brokered a deal with 0 profit. Some days ago I tried the same thing and It was not possible.
Tom declared many time that this will not be allowed to control possible exploits.
What changed?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 12, 2012, 02:08:09 AM
Anyone can tell me how this was possible?

"Deal brokered successfully, you have made a profit of 0 gold."

I just brokered a deal with 0 profit. Some days ago I tried the same thing and It was not possible.
Tom declared many time that this will not be allowed to control possible exploits.
What changed?

I think the point was that you can't trade for a loss. But that even was possible. Don't quote me on that though. But it was my actual thought behind it.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 12, 2012, 02:11:29 AM
No Dante,

Tom expressly said that the trader will MUST make a profit.
Or something changed or there is a bug. ^_^
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 12, 2012, 02:13:41 AM
No Dante,

Tom expressly said that the trader will MUST make a profit.
Or something changed or there is a bug. ^_^

That's fine, I'm wrong. I'm just saying what I THOUGHT.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Penchant on June 12, 2012, 02:28:50 AM
That's fine, I'm wrong. I'm just saying what I THOUGHT.
Tom may have said you must make a profit before but what he really meant was that you can not trade at a loss so Dante is right. I have been a trader for monthes on Dwilight and have always been able to broker trades for a profit of 0.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on June 12, 2012, 08:20:47 AM
As a trader I CAN'T trade anything if the lords don't agree. The class is useless.

That is why we are working on it. Don't forget that the whole trade system just got exchanged. Stuff like the black market, etc. is still unfinished.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 12, 2012, 11:11:37 PM
That is why we are working on it. Don't forget that the whole trade system just got exchanged. Stuff like the black market, etc. is still unfinished.
I know tom.
I was only showing with a real text what I was talking about.
It was only a statement I was not reopening the discussion. ^_^
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on June 13, 2012, 09:49:23 PM
Trading with 0 profit has always been allowed.  Trading with a negative profit is disallowed.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: mykavykos on June 13, 2012, 11:19:26 PM

Well...
So I'm wrong. Probably there was some difference and I didn't saw when closing the deal.

The dev team could change the wording of the messages, in this case.
Profit means that you earn something. And "0" is not a profit.

The message could be something like
"You can't close the deal with a loss" For when the sell prices is higher than the buy offer.
"You are able to close the deal, but without profit" to equal offers
And
"You are able to close the deal and will receive X gold as profit" in the case that the buy offer excide the sell price.

It could be other prhases, but that is the idea.
I don't think that this will bring much trouble to the dev team and will keep things clear.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on June 17, 2012, 07:21:34 AM
1 thing about realm only/ally only trade offers

... should they not be available to foreign brokers (not steward/lords)?

that is, if both the buyer and seller regions fulfil the realm only/ally only criteria..

---
ref:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2627.msg60060.html#msg60060

eh.. that sort of goes against what i thought realm only/allies offers mean...
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 17, 2012, 06:33:07 PM
What would *really* help trade on EC, and probably other islands, as well, would be fixing the trade distance bug. According to the travel advisor, my character is 402 miles from Perdan city, and the marketplace tells me I have a range of 546 miles. Yet I can't see the trade offer the Duke tells me he has posted. I *can* see Aix, at 272 miles.

http://bugs.battlemaster.org/view.php?id=6932
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on June 17, 2012, 11:09:50 PM
What would *really* help trade on EC, and probably other islands, as well, would be fixing the trade distance bug. According to the travel advisor, my character is 402 miles from Perdan city, and the marketplace tells me I have a range of 546 miles. Yet I can't see the trade offer the Duke tells me he has posted. I *can* see Aix, at 272 miles.

http://bugs.battlemaster.org/view.php?id=6932

If only we knew someone who could see and modify the code...hmmm...
Looks at Indirik
  8)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Anaris on June 17, 2012, 11:54:16 PM
This is likely related to the distance multiplier bug that Foundation recently discovered...
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on June 18, 2012, 01:02:54 AM
While I can *look* at code, and technically I *can* commit code changes, there's no way I could fix this. Foundation found the cause, but the change is actually very complicated because of the way it is handled on different islands. No way I'm touching this one.

On the other hand, if you find a spelling or grammatical error, let me know! :P
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Chenier on June 18, 2012, 02:42:38 AM
That is why we are working on it. Don't forget that the whole trade system just got exchanged. Stuff like the black market, etc. is still unfinished.

Food should not be balanced around the purpose of giving traders something to do, and to hell with the effect it has on realms.

Trading for the sake of trading should be kept for a separate resource (the "luxury" or "goods" resource), unless starvation is removed altogether and that regions without food automatically go to sustenance farming or something to that effect.

Balancing food around trade makes as much sense (and fun) as making region production plummet after a week without bureau work or region morale plummet after a week without preaching. Traders, like priests, are specialty classes that no realms should require to remain competitive, despite their presence being potentially quite beneficial.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on June 18, 2012, 05:06:01 AM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on June 18, 2012, 04:01:26 PM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on July 01, 2012, 09:46:56 PM
Food seems to be getting scarcer on Dwilight. Are the production numbers going to be changed soon?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on July 01, 2012, 10:07:45 PM
Food seems to be getting scarcer on Dwilight. Are the production numbers going to be changed soon?

Working on it. Right now, there are still several hundred bushels stored per region on average, so I'm not afraid of world-wide starvation.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 02, 2012, 12:54:03 AM
May want to take out the outlier regions in Morek, since I know from word from my real-life cousin that some of them are storing obscene amounts of food.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 02, 2012, 11:07:33 PM
If you are reworking Trade I think you should allow lords to sell at a higher price then the max 50 gold. I don't really like the fact that their is a cap on what you can charge for food. I believe price can be determined by supply and demand so if supply is very low because of a drought lets say then I think if a Lord has extra food to sell then they should be able to charge a huge amount for it. If I want to charge a 100 gold for  a 100 units of food then I don't see anything wrong with this.  I know I personally would be willing to sell more of my food if I was able to just type in what I wish to sell it for instead of having a cap on what I can sell it for.

If the price is to high then people just wont buy.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 02, 2012, 11:29:07 PM
A cap is necessary to prevent various trade system abuses.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 12:04:53 AM
I don't see any abuses that could be made but I am sure someone can think of one but price should be determined on supply and demand not some dumb cap. Tom wants use to trade food but at the cap it is really not worth my while to trade any food. Everyone always talks about they have plenty of gold to buy food with but no one to sell to them. I know the reason for me is that a max of 50 gold per a 100 units is not worth it for me. In times like winter and droughts food prices should sky rocket because no one has any but with a cap their will always be a predetermined max price.

If I as a lord want to sell food at 300 gold for a 100 units then I should be allowed.  Their will always be ways people find to abuses the system so trying to put a dumb cap on how much you can sell food for only causes people to not sell food.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 03, 2012, 12:45:28 AM
Wow, calling everything dumb like that is sure motivating me to get off my butt and change things for you...
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 12:56:03 AM
lol I was not trying to offend you. I was just trying to iterate that I believe more people would be more inclined to trade if there was not such a low cap on what you can sell food for.  I believe by allowing players to trade at any price of their choosing and allowing the market to determine the price based on supply and demand would make both the game interesting and allow for for TOM's goal to get more people to trade to be more successful.

If I offended you by my words I am sorry that was not my intention. I was just voicing that the gold cap for trade is hurting far more then it is helping. I mean it should be a easy fix just put the gold cap to say 500 which yes I know it a amount that will never be used but would give players a larger area to work with when pricing and determine what their food is worth. It would allow for supply and demand to work correctly rather then being gimped by the low gold cap we have now.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Penchant on July 03, 2012, 01:04:08 AM
lol I was not trying to offend you. I was just trying to iterate that I believe more people would be more inclined to trade if there was not such a low cap on what you can sell food for.  I believe by allowing players to trade at any price of their choosing and allowing the market to determine the price based on supply and demand would make both the game interesting and allow for for TOM's goal to get more people to trade to be more successful.

If I offended you by my words I am sorry that was not my intention. I was just voicing that the gold cap for trade is hurting far more then it is helping. I mean it should be a easy fix just put the gold cap to say 500 which yes I know it a amount that will never be used but would give players a larger area to work with when pricing and determine what their food is worth. It would allow for supply and demand to work correctly rather then being gimped by the low gold cap we have now.
I honestly think you are being rather dumb is you think any lord would ever even if they were starving pay more then 100 gold per 100 bushels. From what I have heard, trade is happening the least on Dwilight and this will not help at all other than have pointless offers on the market because when I do find someone selling food I still usually can't trade because of restrictions, too high of prices, or both.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 01:27:15 AM
Penchant You can think what you will but I know for a fact there is a large amount of food just siting around that is not being sold because 50 gold a for a 100 units of food is not worth it.  Secondly Penchant I never said that people would pay that much I just want a high cap so that we can allow supply and demand to work.

Thirdly 50 gold for 100 units is nothing I have a lord of a rural region  and I can buy with my small income enough food to supply my region for more then 60 days and still have gold to build stuff and recruit and pay for a unit. Gold is extremely easy to get in the game but food is becoming a hard commodity to get and the more time that passes the harder it gets. If you think no one will pay over a 100 gold per a 100 units you are mistaking unlike everything else in game food is a must have. If a realm controls food supply they can charge what ever they want because people have to have it.

Think of it like gas. No one thought people would pay over 3 dollars in the US for it but in the height of the price spike people paid in the high 4s and in some places 5 dollars for it.   The simple answer for this is people paid it because they had to pay it  because they need it.

Same concept behind food in this game TOM wants to make food more important so it makes since that prices should be allowed to go higher to equal the demand and need for the food.

 
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 03, 2012, 01:30:25 AM
I honestly think you are being rather dumb is you think any lord would ever even if they were starving pay more then 100 gold per 100 bushels. From what I have heard, trade is happening the least on Dwilight and this will not help at all other than have pointless offers on the market because when I do find someone selling food I still usually can't trade because of restrictions, too high of prices, or both.

Trade's not happening on Dwilight because of the changes to the food production that lowered it. Why should I sell food to other realms if our realm can hardly feed itself? Prices are high precisely because there is little food. They're not going to lower until more food is available.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 03, 2012, 01:32:52 AM
Penchant You can think what you will but I know for a fact there is a large amount of food just siting around that is not being sold because 50 gold a for a 100 units of food is not worth it.  Secondly Penchant I never said that people would pay that much I just want a high cap so that we can allow supply and demand to work.

Thirdly 50 gold for 100 units is nothing I have a lord of a rural region  and I can buy with my small income enough food to supply my region for more then 60 days and still have gold to build stuff and recruit and pay for a unit. Gold is extremely easy to get in the game but food is becoming a hard commodity to get and the more time that passes the harder it gets. If you think no one will pay over a 100 gold per a 100 units you are mistaking unlike everything else in game food is a must have. If a realm controls food supply they can charge what ever they want because people have to have it.

Think of it like gas. No one thought people would pay over 3 dollars in the US for it but in the height of the price spike people paid in the high 4s and in some places 5 dollars for it.   The simple answer for this is people paid it because they had to pay it  because they need it.

Same concept behind food in this game TOM wants to make food more important so it makes since that prices should be allowed to go higher to equal the demand and need for the food.

While by blank theory you may be correct about food prices, the reason your argument falls up short is that food is not inherently worth anything. Food is a means to an end. Food is essentially a resource used to gain more gold. This means that there is a theoretical underlying value to any food eaten in a specific region. This number is the maximum rate at which food can be converted into gold for that region, when the gold is the max gold production and food the max food consumption. Therefore, if the price for food goes over that value, then it is a net loss in value to purchase food. The solution is not to purchase any food and let population decline until purchasing food is profitable.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Penchant on July 03, 2012, 01:41:38 AM
Trade's not happening on Dwilight because of the changes to the food production that lowered it. Why should I sell food to other realms if our realm can hardly feed itself? Prices are high precisely because there is little food. They're not going to lower until more food is available.
Thats one thing that kinda annoys me about the restrictions there are times when the price is right I can't do trades between realm members. I would like that to be possible. What I mean is lets say in Kabrinskia you put 500 bushels to sell for 25 gold per 100 bushels and Khari, the lord of Golden Farrow, makes a buy offer of 500 bushels for 25 gold per 100 bushels I can't have the deal go through because I am not a member of the realm. I would think allowing traders to access restricted trades if they are following the restrictions would allow some more trade.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 03, 2012, 02:14:04 AM
@creed: you'd rather let all your food rot away and make no money at all, than sell for 50/100? If that's the case, then I'm sorry, but no price will ever be enough for you.

I can guarantee you that if you had food that the realm needed, and wanted 100/100, one of three things would happen:
1) the realm would ban you and put in someone willing to sell for a realistic price
2) your duke would raise your taxes to a stupidly high level to pay the stupidly high price you're asking (in which case all the lords in the duchy would be pissed at you and probably ask for you to be banned)
3) the banker will slap fines on you for the amount of gold you're making from food sales.

Being able to set stupid high prices for food adds nothing to the game, and only enables trade system exploits.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 03, 2012, 02:32:01 AM
Why would the realm punish him? I honestly don't see where you're getting your argument, Indirik. There is a much more extensive supply of gold then food. Most Dukes make insane amounts of gold currently, and the only case where that might not be the case is if they're not also the lord of a city. Then it doesn't really matter, because they don't need to buy food for the city. Also, trying to argue with someone about economics who is going for a business major isn't exactly going to be in your favor.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 03, 2012, 02:44:37 AM
Why would the realm punish him? I honestly don't see where you're getting your argument, Indirik. There is a much more extensive supply of gold then food. Most Dukes make insane amounts of gold currently, and the only case where that might not be the case is if they're not also the lord of a city. Then it doesn't really matter, because they don't need to buy food for the city. Also, trying to argue with someone about economics who is going for a business major isn't exactly going to be in your favor.

The realm would punish him because he's directly harming the realm out of greed. My duke would openly ask for the person to be banned in the realm messaging system, and would likely gain the requested support.

Especially while at war, greed that hurts a realm cannot be accepted.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 03, 2012, 02:53:53 AM
This has nothing to do with economics. This has to do with people playing a game. All your fancy university economics are nothing more than an interesting theory.

And why do I think these things would happen? Two reasons:

1) It's what I would do.
2) I've seen it start happening already.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 04:53:23 AM
The realm would punish him because he's directly harming the realm out of greed. My duke would openly ask for the person to be banned in the realm messaging system, and would likely gain the requested support.

Especially while at war, greed that hurts a realm cannot be accepted.

lol harming my realm in which way? because i choose to charge a fair market value for my product I am thus harming my realm?  Any gold that my realm pays me or buyers pay me will inevitably be invest back into the realm I am apart of be in through recruitment of soldiers  for a war or building of better infrastructure.

The whole point in giving large amount of food production to rural regions is to allow for them to be important and also allow for their lords and knights to have a chance to make a good amount of gold. If I choose to sell my excess gold for a large sum of gold I do not see a problem with this because it is my food. I already pay a tax to my Duke and My king I owe nothing else to them.

Besides if you see no problem with allowing me to charge more gold for my food because of actions that other will take against me then I do not see the problem here. Allow for lords to charge more for food and we can see what will happen.

Also if this game is suppose to be medieval so greed kind of comes with being a noble all nobles want more power and wealth.     
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 05:06:45 AM
@creed: you'd rather let all your food rot away and make no money at all, than sell for 50/100? If that's the case, then I'm sorry, but no price will ever be enough for you.

I can guarantee you that if you had food that the realm needed, and wanted 100/100, one of three things would happen:
1) the realm would ban you and put in someone willing to sell for a realistic price
2) your duke would raise your taxes to a stupidly high level to pay the stupidly high price you're asking (in which case all the lords in the duchy would be pissed at you and probably ask for you to be banned)
3) the banker will slap fines on you for the amount of gold you're making from food sales.

Being able to set stupid high prices for food adds nothing to the game, and only enables trade system exploits.

I find it interesting that you think people would want to ban me for trying to do business. I found a way to make a good amount of gold in a legal way . I don't see why my duke will have a problem with it. Besides I read all the time on the forums oh I have all this gold I don't know what to do with. If this is true then I don't see why I cant charge more for my product .

If TOM wants us to trade more on dwilight then I recommend that he allows us to charge more for our food and allow supply and demand to determine the price.

As for your question if I would rather see food rot then make some gold my answer is I would rather see realms starve then charge a substandard price for my food.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Velax on July 03, 2012, 05:18:00 AM
I would rather see realms starve then charge a substandard price for my food.

You just answered your own question about why your own realm would ban you if you tried this.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Penchant on July 03, 2012, 05:27:26 AM
As for your question if I would rather see food rot then make some gold my answer is I would rather see realms starve then charge a substandard price for my food.
Where are you getting your standard for prices?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 05:35:35 AM
You just answered your own question about why your own realm would ban you if you tried this.

I would rather see realms starve then pay a substandard price yes but I would not let my own realm starve so I don't see what my realm mates would care who I sold food to and who I did not. It is my food to deal with no one else s.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 05:37:49 AM
Where are you getting your standard for prices?

Penchant if you don't believe I cant get more then 50 gold out of food I don't know what to tell you. All I can say think on how supply and demand works. Then think on how companies use supply and demand to make more money and that is your answer.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Velax on July 03, 2012, 06:13:12 AM
It is my food to deal with no one else s.

Well...not really. It depends greatly on the culture of your realm, amongst other things. For starters, the game specifically tells the ruler that all the lands belong to him, so technically it's his food. And there are plenty of realms that expect nobles to part with their food for free. And any region lord that tells his duke, banker, judge or ruler that, "This food is mine, I'll charge whatever I want for it so to hell with you" probably isn't going to be in the realm long.

Edit: You've also ignored the whole "It's to stop exploits" reason. You seem to think having any cap at all will stop the exploit, whereas it's more likely that the higher the cap, the more gold exploiters can gain. Cap = 50 gold, not much profit from the exploit. Cap = 500 gold, as you suggested, lots of profit for exploiters.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Lefanis on July 03, 2012, 07:03:28 AM
@creed: you'd rather let all your food rot away and make no money at all, than sell for 50/100? If that's the case, then I'm sorry, but no price will ever be enough for you.

I can guarantee you that if you had food that the realm needed, and wanted 100/100, one of three things would happen:
1) the realm would ban you and put in someone willing to sell for a realistic price
2) your duke would raise your taxes to a stupidly high level to pay the stupidly high price you're asking (in which case all the lords in the duchy would be pissed at you and probably ask for you to be banned)
3) the banker will slap fines on you for the amount of gold you're making from food sales.

Being able to set stupid high prices for food adds nothing to the game, and only enables trade system exploits.

Well, I might not sell to my realm at 80 per 100. But I sure as hell would sell it to my starving neighbouring realm at a price like that. My character purposefully sets the price low in realm, and set it to 50, the max it can go, for outsiders. And he manages to sell all his food at 50 gold. If he could, he would raise the price, just to see how desperate his neighbours are  :D

I don't think raising the cap just a little will cause so many exploits, besides, it would discourage food hoarding and encourage the trade game, especially on continents like FEI, where food is at a premium.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on July 03, 2012, 07:10:28 AM
food hoarding just mean you lose more to rot. the more you have, the more you lose.

raising cap doesn't cause any exploits. it just make the exploits (shifting funds between realms via bonds, etc) easier... not that i'm for or against any cap.

---
how much food does a "normal" rural produce nowadays anyway? i'm thinking a rural will be most profitable if they shift the rot to the consumers.. you can have 0 rot with low inventory
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 03, 2012, 07:18:21 AM
I still have not heard exactly what this "exploit" is. Only thing I can think of is selling food from one lord to another of the same player.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Lefanis on July 03, 2012, 07:24:14 AM
@Indirik- And suppose that the realm did decide to ban him- all right, let him face the consequences. Sucks for him. But at least he brought it upon himself. The consequences he may or may not face isnt an argument for the cap.

@fodder- eeps, noticed a typo. I mean discourage, not encourage. In BM now, if you produce a surplus, and your viable trading partners are not on good terms with you, you can either hoard it and let it rot (better than letting it get into their stinking hands!), or you can jack up your rates to 50 gold per 100. The fact that people are still buying at 50 gold, means it is still worth more to them. That is why I feel the cap should be increased a bit, to allow the buyer and seller to gauge the price the other is willing to sell/buy at.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Lefanis on July 03, 2012, 07:33:29 AM
This number is the maximum rate at which food can be converted into gold for that region, when the gold is the max gold production and food the max food consumption. Therefore, if the price for food goes over that value, then it is a net loss in value to purchase food. The solution is not to purchase any food and let population decline until purchasing food is profitable.

When pop goes down due to starvation, it usually takes a while to recover. So you still have to factor in the gold you might have earned at max production, during the recovery period, to offset the gold you might spend on the food. I'm too lazy to do the math, but I'd guess the limit is still a little above 50 gold.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 03, 2012, 01:08:37 PM
@gustav: I'm not going to sit here and list possible exploits. Think it through.

As for the cap, I agree, 50 may be a bit low. Maybe once food balance has been achieved, tom will think about raising it some. Or maybe once trade delays have been put back in.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on July 03, 2012, 02:11:43 PM
Someone calculate the marginal gold generated per food.

I am fairly certain when I did it a few yeaes ago for some cities, 50 is more than enough of a cap.  Beyond the value of the food.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 02:52:33 PM
@gustav: I'm not going to sit here and list possible exploits. Think it through.

As for the cap, I agree, 50 may be a bit low. Maybe once food balance has been achieved, tom will think about raising it some. Or maybe once trade delays have been put back in.

Why cant Tom raise the cap now it should not take long to do?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 03, 2012, 03:32:53 PM
He probably doesn't want it raised.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 03, 2012, 03:46:12 PM
You're the one telling me that there's an exploit, Indirik. Unless you can prove to me that there are exploits that wouldn't happen with a cap, I'm going to continue to say there is no reason for a cap.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Lefanis on July 03, 2012, 04:01:59 PM
You're the one telling me that there's an exploit, Indirik. Unless you can prove to me that there are exploits that wouldn't happen with a cap, I'm going to continue to say there is no reason for a cap.

Why would anyone (forget a dev) make exploits public? Just take his word for it...
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 03, 2012, 04:04:26 PM
You are free to say that, if you wish. It still doesn't mean that I'm going to list possible/potential/actual exploits and abuses in a public forum.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Peri on July 03, 2012, 04:28:30 PM
For the sake of balancing and statistics, I can testify that indeed Morek has a LOT of food stored and could potentially sell most of it to somehow cancel starvation in the rest of dwilight.

The main problem I can think of, besides Morek's well known far from generous attitude, is that it's quite a slow procedure to shuffle food around systematically: too many people need to do actions in particular regions, and for each transition prices raise since everyone wants his share. I guess trade flow would get larger if Lords simply started to sell wildly without waiting for contracts or bankers or agreements, but still many do not seem interested in doing it or simply put some hundred bushels for sale every now and then, resulting in a huge stockpile.

In the end I believe the new trade system implies a much decentralised mindset which is yet to come, since people were more or less used to sell large quantities of food to single traders coming from realm x with which the trader made a certain deal beforehand.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 06:56:49 PM
For the sake of balancing and statistics, I can testify that indeed Morek has a LOT of food stored and could potentially sell most of it to somehow cancel starvation in the rest of dwilight.

The main problem I can think of, besides Morek's well known far from generous attitude, is that it's quite a slow procedure to shuffle food around systematically: too many people need to do actions in particular regions, and for each transition prices raise since everyone wants his share. I guess trade flow would get larger if Lords simply started to sell wildly without waiting for contracts or bankers or agreements, but still many do not seem interested in doing it or simply put some hundred bushels for sale every now and then, resulting in a huge stockpile.

In the end I believe the new trade system implies a much decentralised mindset which is yet to come, since people were more or less used to sell large quantities of food to single traders coming from realm x with which the trader made a certain deal beforehand.


Peri this is indeed why I wish the gold cap on trade to be brought up quite a bit if we are allowed to charge more for food then it would motivate nobles to actually wish to go through the trouble of selling their food . Right now we have a market that under values food, many here thinks food is a means to a end but I see food as a tool of war. Realms have to have to have food or they will have to starve their regions until they can feed them which will result in internal trouble within the realm as well as a decrease in recruits, gold etc. If you cant beat a stronger realm starve them until they are to week to fight.  I mean lets says I was a Lord and I had 2000 units of food I can only make 1000 gold from it.  This is not a whole heck of a lot for the work I would have to do to sell it.

Food takes time to build up and the prices we are caped at don't reflect the work required to sell the product.  If I wanted to now I could sell all my food at max price and have it sold by the end of the day. This goes to show that people are willing to pay more then what our cap is now.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 03, 2012, 07:01:00 PM
This is not a who heck of a lot for the work I would have to do to sell it.
"Work"? It would take all of about 10 clicks to sell 1000 bushels for 50/100. 10 clicks of the mouse isn't worth 500 gold to you? You could sell it for a lot less work by just going into the market and accepting whatever Buy offers are listed.

I'm sorry, but the argument of "It's just not worth my time to sell it" holds no water. Have fun letting it rot in your warehouse, and getting nothing for it at all.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 07:12:09 PM
"Work"? It would take all of about 10 clicks to sell 1000 bushels for 50/100. 10 clicks of the mouse isn't worth 500 gold to you? You could sell it for a lot less work by just going into the market and accepting whatever Buy offers are listed.

I'm sorry, but the argument of "It's just not worth my time to sell it" holds no water. Have fun letting it rot in your warehouse, and getting nothing for it at all.

lol Indirik I don't need gold I have to much of it now anyways. I buy food for the heck of it when I see it for sale and just send it to rogue regions because I have no space for it. I mean just today I bought 500 units of food it cost me 50 gold total for all of it was everything on the market with in my distance . For the scarcity of food the market makes no since. I mean If I wanted to make some gold I would just take the food and go down south to sell to D'Hara but that takes time and effort and the pay off is what a messily 200 gold .What am I going to do with the gold? Look at it? I already have enough gold to just sit in the capital and train forever, recruit to my recruit cap, buy extra food if I wish. We have all this gold but their really is not much in the game to spend it on. Lets remember I am not even a duke of a town lands or city.

I mean I suppose I can just continually tear down and build  recruitment centers until I get a awesome one but that will just be boring.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 03, 2012, 07:19:00 PM
lol Indirik I don't need gold I have to much of it now anyways. I buy food for the heck of it when I see it for sale and just send it to rogue regions
What do you mean by "send it to rogue regions"? It should not be possible to sell food to rogue regions at all.

Quote
What am I going to do with the gold? Look at it? I already have enough gold to just sit in the capital and train forever, recruit to my recruit cap, buy extra food if I wish.
So you have no use for the obscene amounts of gold you already have, but you want us to raise the sale price cap because you want to be able to make more gold that you don't need or want?

Why don't you try parlaying the food, of which you already have way too much, into political favor? Try doing something useful with it instead of just demanding more gold that you already admit you don't need or want, and couldn't use even if you did have it.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 07:26:36 PM
What do you mean by "send it to rogue regions"? It should not be possible to sell food to rogue regions at all.
So you have no use for the obscene amounts of gold you already have, but you want us to raise the sale price cap because you want to be able to make more gold that you don't need or want?

Why don't you try parlaying the food, of which you already have way too much, into political favor? Try doing something useful with it instead of just demanding more gold that you already admit you don't need or want, and couldn't use even if you did have it.

Yeah I cant do it now but it was back when when you could use ox carts.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 03, 2012, 07:28:39 PM
Ox carts could not be used to move food outside your own realm. If you could, then it was a bug.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Creed on July 03, 2012, 07:29:16 PM
What do you mean by "send it to rogue regions"? It should not be possible to sell food to rogue regions at all.
So you have no use for the obscene amounts of gold you already have, but you want us to raise the sale price cap because you want to be able to make more gold that you don't need or want?

Why don't you try parlaying the food, of which you already have way too much, into political favor? Try doing something useful with it instead of just demanding more gold that you already admit you don't need or want, and couldn't use even if you did have it.

I have use for gold yes but I need more then just obscene amount of gold for myself. I want a way to make enough gold to fund an organization without having to rely on a Duke or realm.  Allowing for gold cap to be higher will allow me to make the need income for my organization. Also the increased gold cap will allow other Lords to make more gold that might not have a lot of gold.

All I am saying now is that food is just to cheap. Like I said above I bought all the sell orders that where up today it cost me 50 gold for 500 units of food. All I am going to do with it is add it to my pile I  have maybe build some more granarys

Also there are good IG reasons my character doe this
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 03, 2012, 07:41:34 PM
All I am saying now is that food is just to cheap. Like I said above I bought all the sell orders that where up today it cost me 50 gold for 500 units of food.
That's a price of 10/100, which is the absolute minimum. Since they're not selling at the upper limit. So if people aren't selling at the upper limit, then why raise the limit? Changing the cap from 50 to 100 is not suddenly going to make people already selling at 10 suddenly switch to 100.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on July 03, 2012, 07:51:36 PM
Thank you both for clarifying this issue of the cap, why it is there, and why it should remain there.

Please move on to other aspects of the trade system.  Further discussion on the same topic will be moved to a different thread.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: oblivian2003 on July 17, 2012, 02:16:02 PM
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Zakilevo on July 20, 2012, 02:41:00 AM
I actually think the current food production should stay the same until we get rid of all the excessive food we have. You just need to pay a bit more and work a bit harder to find a trading partner.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 20, 2012, 03:16:17 AM
lol, BS. The only region with any excess food in Kabrinskia is Knyazes. Morek has excessive food only because a bunch of rural region lords have been stockpiling all the food they have in their regions. And we all know Morek has an overabundance of rural regions anyways, so isn't very representative of other realms.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: D`Este on July 20, 2012, 08:08:43 PM
LN is out of food, only one rural with large stockpile and the rest has almost nothing. Giask is starving and no food is available to be buy.

I really think the food situation should be reconsidered.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on July 20, 2012, 09:39:16 PM
only reason that happened is that there's a prolonged winter (how many days was it? a week?)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 20, 2012, 11:35:11 PM
only reason that happened is that there's a prolonged winter (how many days was it? a week?)

This was happening before the winter even extended past it's deadline. The lengthening of it only aggravated the problem.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on July 21, 2012, 12:12:58 AM
I've heard that some benefit when others starve.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 21, 2012, 12:33:30 AM
I've heard that some benefit when others starve.

I've heard that a certain panda needs to eat something other than bamboo...
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 21, 2012, 01:39:24 AM
Here's a thought: What's wrong with sustained food scarcity?

Dwilight was founded with a "frontier" mentality. There was also some rogue regions and it was hard work to take that next city. With forced scarcity of food, Dwilight will remain somewhat in that state.

I see nothing wrong with forces smart decisions in terms of what regions you can actually afford to support and placing a stronger emphasis on rural regions. Traditional BM doctrine says capture the largest city possible and win with superior funding, but what is wrong with having Dwilight be different? Make it important to have many rural regions to support strong cities. Make warfare that much more deadly by really having to protect your rural regions, instead of holing up in cities.

I think a Dwilight that produces a small net deficit in food each day, is a Dwilight that can prove very interesting going forward.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on July 21, 2012, 02:13:47 AM
Hey, hey, pandas need to survive in this changing world too, ya'know!
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Charles on July 21, 2012, 02:29:33 AM
It would have been nice if winter actually just ended rather than the code for the count down getting fixed. 
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on July 21, 2012, 03:56:31 AM
Would be nice if some food popped up for free to compensate the rather long winter too, wouldn't you say? 8)

I guess the world could be a lot nicer.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: JPierreD on July 21, 2012, 05:44:55 AM
Would be nice if some food popped up for free to compensate the rather long winter too, wouldn't you say? 8)

I guess the world could be a lot nicer.

What if hunting monsters actually gave meat, and thus food? :P
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Charles on July 21, 2012, 06:09:35 AM
But who would want to eat that?  Hunting deer or boar would be a different story.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: JPierreD on July 21, 2012, 07:09:13 AM
But who would want to eat that?  Hunting deer or boar would be a different story.

Starving people? I was jk though.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on July 21, 2012, 08:21:16 PM
But who would want to eat that?  Hunting deer or boar would be a different story.

Who says the monsters aren't wolves, bears, or boars?

Starving people will eat shoe leather, you think they'll turn down actual meat?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Charles on July 22, 2012, 05:03:51 AM
I am fairly certain they are not bears, wolves, or boars.  Are there not descriptions of the monsters in the game?  But I suppose you are right about real meat. 
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Indirik on July 22, 2012, 05:05:15 AM
Are there not descriptions of the monsters in the game?
No. And that is intentional.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Penchant on July 25, 2012, 10:07:52 PM
For a lack of a better place to ask, can a dev give some numbers on Dwilight for food? When the food rebalance started we were at 275k bushels total stored I believe, so I would be curious to hear what its at now.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on July 25, 2012, 11:37:15 PM
For a lack of a better place to ask, can a dev give some numbers on Dwilight for food? When the food rebalance started we were at 275k bushels total stored I believe, so I would be curious to hear what its at now.

63k stored, avg. per region just over 250 bushels.

And that's at the end of winter.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 25, 2012, 11:57:46 PM
Just a suggestion. Take out the outliers in Morek, including a region that I know has probably at least 2500 bushels, if not more.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Penchant on July 26, 2012, 12:04:01 AM
Just a suggestion. Take out the outliers in Morek, including a region that I know has probably at least 2500 bushels, if not more.
What might be simpler to do so he doesn't have to figure out which ones are outliers, is just remove the realm of Morek from the numbers, and see what the average per region is. Also, thanks for the relatively quick reply Tom.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Eithad on July 26, 2012, 01:45:04 AM
Can't you just go and take Moreks food? Wars are fun?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on July 26, 2012, 04:17:15 AM
Can't you just go and take Moreks food? Wars are fun?

1. Look at Morek's army, easier said than done
2. What makes you think you can just take the food? They could simply sell it from region to region, while their army smashes you.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on July 26, 2012, 09:23:33 AM
Just a suggestion. Take out the outliers in Morek, including a region that I know has probably at least 2500 bushels, if not more.

No one can have enough food to very much change the average on Dwilight, with its 248 regions. If I leave out all regions with 2000 or more food stored, the average is still over 200 bushels per region.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 26, 2012, 12:10:09 PM
No one can have enough food to very much change the average on Dwilight, with its 248 regions. If I leave out all regions with 2000 or more food stored, the average is still over 200 bushels per region.

Try leaving out the rogues (which shouldn't be included in the first place), comparing consumption with production and food supply for entire realms.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on July 26, 2012, 12:28:07 PM
Try leaving out the rogues (which shouldn't be included in the first place), comparing consumption with production and food supply for entire realms.

Rogue region we just took had a whole 8 Bushels. Don't think they are inflating things too much.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on July 26, 2012, 01:46:23 PM
Try leaving out the rogues (which shouldn't be included in the first place), comparing consumption with production and food supply for entire realms.

I'm sorry, but reality doesn't change just because you want it to. :-)

Without rogues, the average per region is even higher, at around 230 bushels. If I drop the limit further to exclude regions that have large food stores, it doesn't change all that much.


Whatever is causing people to go all crazy about food, it isn't that food is really that scarce.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on July 26, 2012, 02:13:53 PM
it would probably be more interesting to know how you get the average of 230. and what 230 bushels mean. are there somewhere with a ton of food? i know there are quite a few places with starvation.

eg
nebel, a townsland has 220 bushels.. which is allegedly around 10 days' worth for 12.8k pop. so.. even if it were to sell 100 bushels to a 30k pop city.. that'll only last 2 days max

---
wtf does "Winter will end in 0 days." mean? XD
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on July 26, 2012, 02:29:34 PM
Hm, winter should've really ended by now.

And 230 avg. means just that. It's a statistical number. Sure there are regions with starvation. If I exclude them, the avg. jumps to almost 300.

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on July 26, 2012, 02:37:28 PM
i mean.. i know what statistical average means.

but what would be more interesting to know is how many realms are food rich but not selling externally - for good reasons.. and how many have big reserves but not selling internally

take example of nebel again... cities are starving, yet there isn't any point in selling when you might end up starving too after you sell. which doesn't help anyone.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on July 27, 2012, 12:00:34 AM
I think there are food-rich realms, and food-poor realms. It would be nice if the island stats listed the food stores of each realm. We list the military strength, why not the amount of food each realm has stored?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on August 02, 2012, 07:07:46 AM
can you loot stuff from warehouse? (not specifically targeting it.. just not excluding it when looting)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on August 02, 2012, 08:33:40 AM
I think there are food-rich realms, and food-poor realms. It would be nice if the island stats listed the food stores of each realm. We list the military strength, why not the amount of food each realm has stored?

We list food production in the statistics, twice even, total and supply.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on August 02, 2012, 08:14:32 PM
We list food production in the statistics, twice even, total and supply.

Production, yes; storage, not at all. A realm could have massive production, yet constantly sell the food; another realm could have a very small surplus, but horde it forever and buy food from their neighbors and have a massive stockpile. Aurvandil, Morek, and Iashalur all have stockpiles, but there's no way for my character can find that out.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Anaris on August 02, 2012, 08:16:27 PM
Production, yes; storage, not at all. A realm could have massive production, yet constantly sell the food; another realm could have a very small surplus, but horde it forever and buy food from their neighbors and have a massive stockpile. Aurvandil, Morek, and Iashalur all have stockpiles, but there's no way for my character can find that out.

Yes, and I believe this is more or less intentional.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on August 02, 2012, 08:33:05 PM
Yes, and I believe this is more or less intentional.

Yes, it is. Some information shouldn't be easily available. That's the problem with the whole statistics thing. While it is very enjoyable, it also removes some of the mystery and secrecy. Stuff you should find out through IG means.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on August 03, 2012, 01:13:16 AM
Production, yes; storage, not at all. A realm could have massive production, yet constantly sell the food; another realm could have a very small surplus, but horde it forever and buy food from their neighbors and have a massive stockpile. Aurvandil, Morek, and Iashalur all have stockpiles, but there's no way for my character can find that out.

Oh hey ruler person, lets publish our stored food information so all those starving realms can EASILY see which realm to go to war with to alleviate their problems. There are PLENTY of ways for our characters to find out this info, but it takes time. When Arcaea was arguing that the Dark Isle had broken their treaty obligation to sell surplus food, the damn northern barbarians claimed they had none, so you know what we sent infiltrators and traders to go peak into their warehouses to find out the truth.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: egamma on August 03, 2012, 05:03:07 AM
Oh hey ruler person, lets publish our stored food information so all those starving realms can EASILY see which realm to go to war with to alleviate their problems. There are PLENTY of ways for our characters to find out this info, but it takes time. When Arcaea was arguing that the Dark Isle had broken their treaty obligation to sell surplus food, the damn northern barbarians claimed they had none, so you know what we sent infiltrators and traders to go peak into their warehouses to find out the truth.

And one of my traders swears up and down that he can't find the screen that shows how much food the region he is in has. Where is that?
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: De-Legro on August 03, 2012, 05:45:07 AM
And one of my traders swears up and down that he can't find the screen that shows how much food the region he is in has. Where is that?

Unless the food is on the market, you need a infil to scout the warehouses.
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Foundation on August 03, 2012, 05:49:50 AM
Thus, traders for the market, infils for the granaries. :)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Azerax on August 05, 2012, 02:43:33 AM
Traders have the ability to chat with local merchants, perhaps part of that is finding out if that region or the directly surrounding regions has a surplus. (my char is travelling right now so I'm not going to click on it to see what it does)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Tom on August 05, 2012, 10:08:17 AM
That's a good idea. Care to write it up as a full feature request? Something like "trader chat should reveal surplus/deficit of region" ?

Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: fodder on August 05, 2012, 06:34:23 PM
you mean the figure shown in the daily report? (ie... including troops consumption) or the one the banker sees/shown in command? or the stuff in granaries as well?

trader chat atm... just lets you find out if there are marketplaces (1 region radius)
Title: Re: Reworking Trade
Post by: Azerax on August 06, 2012, 05:00:56 AM
That's a good idea. Care to write it up as a full feature request? Something like "trader chat should reveal surplus/deficit of region" ?

done:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2954.0.html