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BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: Tom on January 27, 2012, 10:40:38 AM
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No, not what you think. We will keep them. But I would like to dramatically simplify them.
Here's the concept:
- Paraphernalia should be a flag, not a counter. You decide if your unit has banners, siege engines, scouts, etc. - and your captain will handle the details about the exact numbers, etc. etc.
- Costs will be based on your unit size, and will mostly be maintainance costs
- Workshops don't construct numbers of them, they either have some or don't - we will add another state to workshops, "sold out". Basically the idea is that every workshop can supply one unit with its product per turn. So if there is only one Banner Manufacture, and someone else added banners to his unit this turn, you have to wait until next turn.
The purpose of this change is to make these things more hassle-free and much simpler to code. With simpler code come more options for us to do interesting things. There's a few things that I have not yet good answer to, like how scouting works if we don't have scouts as a "depletable" resource, but that's not a showstopper.
Comments?
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I like this. I especially like the idea of a flag. I don't know how many banners my men should get, and only mildly interested in finding out - my captain should know.
Costs will be based on your unit size, and will mostly be maintainance costs
Currently Scouts and healers are mostly maintenance costs, while the other paraphernalia are mostly an upfront cost. I think I like it that way. This is especially true for siege engines. If they become mostly maintenance, it will be difficult to carry them around when there is no siege planned; while it will still be difficult to buy them at the last minute. This could unbalance siege warfare.
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this is especially true for siege engines. If they become mostly maintenance, it will be difficult to carry them around when there is no siege planned; while it will still be difficult to buy them at the last minute. This could unbalance siege warfare.
that was already like that. going around with enough siege engines to be effective in a siege was a pain, it really made an army less effective. It's indeed a different kind of "it will be difficult to carry them around when there is no siege" but it's still an already present effect.
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Well yes, it kind of is the idea to eliminate all the stockpiling hassles.
I agree that the up-front vs. upkeep cost thing was/is a really nice touch and I added it intentionally, so I bleed a little to give it up. However, there is no way to maintain it entirely without it being very gameable - i.e. recruit tiny unit, by all the paraphernalia you want, recruit all the other men.
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that was already like that. going around with enough siege engines to be effective in a siege was a pain, it really made an army less effective. It's indeed a different kind of "it will be difficult to carry them around when there is no siege" but it's still an already present effect.
It just slows you down. They have no maintenance costs at the moment. If they cost 5 gold a week each, I'd be much more careful about how many I carry.
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Basically the idea is that every workshop can supply one unit with its product per turn. So if there is only one Banner Manufacture, and someone else added banners to his unit this turn, you have to wait until next turn.
I hope workshops are going to be considerably cheaper to build if each one can only supply one item a turn, with a maximum storage of one.
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i don't know... i like to go heavy on healers. whether it made any difference or not is another matter. (just don't know)
perhaps in unit settings you can get to pick more or less than average for healers or even scouts?
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Well yes, it kind of is the idea to eliminate all the stockpiling hassles.
I agree that the up-front vs. upkeep cost thing was/is a really nice touch and I added it intentionally, so I bleed a little to give it up. However, there is no way to maintain it entirely without it being very gameable - i.e. recruit tiny unit, by all the paraphernalia you want, recruit all the other men.
This could be fixed though, but it would add some checks when you add men. When you increase the size of the unit, check what paraphernalia with an upfront cost is currently owned by the unit, and give the player a choice, either pay to increase the number to match the new size, or abandon them. The bigger issue I would guess is available stock, unless we just assume that since you "have" the paraphernalia it doesn't consume any stockpile to increase it, which as I understand it is basically how the upkeep items will be working.
Hmm but then what do we do if the unit is downsized for whatever reason?
i don't know... i like to go heavy on healers. whether it made any difference or not is another matter. (just don't know)
perhaps in unit settings you can get to pick more or less than average for healers or even scouts?
Just a guess here, but part of the idea is to simplify things, and what is more simple then having one level of effectiveness? You either have healers or you don't, so you either get the flat bonus or you don't. Personally I prefer the strategy involved with current set up, but if we are going simple and approachable for all players, having a single bonus works well
I hope workshops are going to be considerably cheaper to build if each one can only supply one item a turn, with a maximum storage of one.
Remember though each unit only need "one" of those units though. No longer do you need to recruit 4 healers, 6 scouts, 4 banners etc for each unit. You simply recruit Healers, and consume 1 unit to do so. Once you have them, well I would guess so long as you don't completely lose your unit you never need to recruit more. But that last bit is just a guess.
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- Paraphernalia should be a flag, not a counter. You decide if your unit has banners, siege engines, scouts, etc. - and your captain will handle the details about the exact numbers, etc. etc.
I like the general idea of this for many things, such as healers, banners, carts, etc. But when it comes to things like siege engines, I don't like it. Whether or not to carry siege engines, and how many to carry, is really a tactical decision. You can choose to go light on siege engines to keep mobility because you're not going to attack heavy fortifications, or you can choose to load yourself down because you're going to be knocking on the doors of the enemy's capital, and you don't really need to be mobile.
Not only that, but the number of siege engines that your army carries is very important as well, and a subject of a lot of contention. 1 per 10? 1 per 20? 1 per unit? Depends on the level of walls? It's a trade off, and a risk factor. Mobility vs. effectiveness. I think this is a very important part of the combat game, and I would not like to see this portion of it extrapolated away just for the sake of a bit of simplicity.
going around with enough siege engines to be effective in a siege was a pain, it really made an army less effective.
Depends on how many you have. There are armies that routinely have their infantry carry one siege engine per unit. For younger characters it doesn't have too much effect, unless you're traveling through mountains or on very bad roads. But when you get the unexpected chance to attack a fortified but lightly defended townsland, it is very nice to have 5 or 6 siege engines your enemy didn't expect you to have.
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Depends on how many you have. There are armies that routinely have their infantry carry one siege engine per unit. For younger characters it doesn't have too much effect, unless you're traveling through mountains or on very bad roads. But when you get the unexpected chance to attack a fortified but lightly defended townsland, it is very nice to have 5 or 6 siege engines your enemy didn't expect you to have.
You are right but it can make a difference. it's not so uncommon in a prolonged war to routinely cross destroyed regions with painfully long travel times. Sometimes even a couple of siege engines per unit can make a difference in the turn you can reach a given region.
That's not so relevant anyway. I anyway completely agree with the beginning of your post and the importance of siege engines in the combat game.
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I'd tend to agree with others that have pointed out siege engines as something that should perhaps be a special case. At the very least it would be important to have the siege workshop have some sort of store of them or allow them to be built in every region type. Otherwise switching from field battle to that big assault against the important city is going to be a way too long process with being able to add only one siege engine "unit" per day. In an army of 30 infantry units that's going to take a long time.
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I'd tend to agree with others that have pointed out siege engines as something that should perhaps be a special case. At the very least it would be important to have the siege workshop have some sort of store of them or allow them to be built in every region type. Otherwise switching from field battle to that big assault against the important city is going to be a way too long process with being able to add only one siege engine "unit" per day. In an army of 30 infantry units that's going to take a long time.
I am not so sure, you know? Clearly depends on how many siege engines with this new system would be assigned to a 30man unit, but as things are now a fully supplied workshop (5 siege engines) would supply 2 and half units in the first day if you assume 1 engine/15 men, and then even less units depending on the production of the region. This opposed to 2 units in a day for every day for what Tom is proposing.
If you consider the average number of men per unit larger (say, 50 instead of 30) the new system would even allow an army to gear up considerably faster I think.
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I think scouts should be kept separate--plenty of people like to carry them, even if they don't have a unit. And it sucks to not have enough scouts. And, some armies may deploy dedicated scout/skirmish units, where one or two nobles has only a 15-man unit, but 5 scouts, while the bigger 50-man units may only have 1 scout.
I'm also concerned about the cost of building multiple banner manufacturers/siege workshops/etc. If your entire army goes to one city to resupply, that city will be stripped bare, yes?
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Well yes, it kind of is the idea to eliminate all the stockpiling hassles.
I agree that the up-front vs. upkeep cost thing was/is a really nice touch and I added it intentionally, so I bleed a little to give it up. However, there is no way to maintain it entirely without it being very gameable - i.e. recruit tiny unit, by all the paraphernalia you want, recruit all the other men.
There can certainly be a way to balance this while maintaining the maintenance payment idea. The important point is that raising a siege-worthy army should be possible. It's possible now because they can be bought a long time in advance for basically free, so a production of 1 or 2 engines per day can be sufficient.
Maybe an idea would be to allow easy drafting of extra siege engines?
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"Drafting" of siege engines?
I actually think that a workshop equipping one unit per turn with siege engines is more than sufficient. If you look at the way it is now, it is much slower than that. One siege workshop produces one siege engine per day. And sometimes it shuts down and doesn't make any. So if you want 15 units to each carry two siege engines, that's a minimum of 30 days of production for one workshop. Under Tom's new proposed system, it's a max of 7.5 days. The only thing you lose is the ability to grab 6 SEs (or 12 if you have two workshops) quickly to equip three (or 6) units.
The one thing that is a both under the proposed system (other than the fact that I don't like it for SEs) is that the workshops apparently can't stockpile paraphernalia for purchase. That's an important feature that makes buying paraphernalia "not suck". A scout guild can have 5 scouts ready and waiting. So 5 units can each buy one scout. Or two or three units can each hire 2 or 3, etc. If an army goes to refit, and only one unit per turn can buy banners... that's a real pain.
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This could be fixed though, but it would add some checks when you add men. When you increase the size of the unit, check what paraphernalia with an upfront cost is currently owned by the unit, and give the player a choice, either pay to increase the number to match the new size, or abandon them.
The purpose is to make things less complex, not more. :-)
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I like the general idea of this for many things, such as healers, banners, carts, etc. But when it comes to things like siege engines, I don't like it. Whether or not to carry siege engines, and how many to carry, is really a tactical decision.
Someone commented the same thing with respect to healers. I am thinking of maybe creating more paraphernalia to cover these bases. Not many more, but a few. For example, I have always wanted to split siege engines into light (ladders, etc.) and heavy (siege towers and rams).
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or ones that destroy the wall and ones that go over it?
Just a guess here, but part of the idea is to simplify things, and what is more simple then having one level of effectiveness? You either have healers or you don't, so you either get the flat bonus or you don't. Personally I prefer the strategy involved with current set up, but if we are going simple and approachable for all players, having a single bonus works well
just because it's simple and approachable doesn't mean you can't have a settings that says - lots of healers you pay extra and get extra healing.. we are not saying players get to pick 1% or 2%.. at most we are talking
25% / 50% / normal /150% /200%
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"Drafting" of siege engines?
I meant that the region Lord could draft his workshop to have more than one siege engine available, in the same way he can draft his RC.
It's just an idea. I'm sure there are many other ways.
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No, at most we are talking 3 different levels, not 5. And even 3 is unlikely. Maybe 2. And that's a big "maybe".
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Someone commented the same thing with respect to healers. I am thinking of maybe creating more paraphernalia to cover these bases. Not many more, but a few. For example, I have always wanted to split siege engines into light (ladders, etc.) and heavy (siege towers and rams).
I would love to see catapults, perhaps only recruit-able by special forces?
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This is going to be a kick in the nuts for moderately large realms, Tom.
The refill rate of paraphernalia items would not change much, true, but the "stockpiling effect" would be gone. Demand for paraphernalia comes in spikes, when the army is refitting, and having a stockpile of them to hand out speeds things up.
A siege engine workshop that holds six siege engines can supply six knights immediately. If that workshop can only hold one now, you will have knights waiting for days before they can move out again. One of them has to wait nearly a week.
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This is going to be a kick in the nuts for moderately large realms, Tom.
The refill rate of paraphernalia items would not change much, true, but the "stockpiling effect" would be gone. Demand for paraphernalia comes in spikes, when the army is refitting, and having a stockpile of them to hand out speeds things up.
A siege engine workshop that holds six siege engines can supply six knights immediately. If that workshop can only hold one now, you will have knights waiting for days before they can move out again. One of them has to wait nearly a week.
But not if...the army refits in multiple regions. Or if multiple siege workshops are built. In fact, a small realm, with only one city, will have to wait a week, while a large realm can order half the army to refit in City A and half in City B, and be done in half the time. Both large and small realms will be able to build multiple siege workshops to cut the time down further.
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Recruitment would still only work in the capital though. So they still have to move out to get their paraphernalia, thus splitting them up.
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Recruitment would still only work in the capital though. So they still have to move out to get their paraphernalia, thus splitting them up.
In other words, paraphernelia would work exactly like it does now? Currently, it's entirely possible for your capital to not have any siege engines. And I know it won't have scouts. How is this any different?
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um.. do they (mostly scouts/healers) disappear if you don't have a unit any more?
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Any scouts/healers remain with you even if your unit captain and all is gone
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But not if...the army refits in multiple regions. Or if multiple siege workshops are built. In fact, a small realm, with only one city, will have to wait a week, while a large realm can order half the army to refit in City A and half in City B, and be done in half the time. Both large and small realms will be able to build multiple siege workshops to cut the time down further.
Splitting up your army is a luxury that most realms cannot afford during war-time. You'll get defeated-in-detail and have at least one of your regions razed before you can recover.
Money is tight during war-time. "Just build more siege workshops" is not a viable solution. Just building one per city is expensive enough as it is.
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Splitting up your army is a luxury that most realms cannot afford during war-time. You'll get defeated-in-detail and have at least one of your regions razed before you can recover.
Money is tight during war-time. "Just build more siege workshops" is not a viable solution. Just building one per city is expensive enough as it is.
Arcaea regularly send its units to different cities when we are doing a siege refit. How else are you going to get a realm with 60 something nobles to recruit enough SE to matter. If you are worried about being defeated in detail while doing a refit, you aren't really at the stage where you need SE. For all other paraphernalia, well why don't your units already have it? Like was pointed out, you don't lost many forms of paraphernalia when you lose your unit.
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How about we just remove scouts as paraphernalia? Just let units scout? If your scout gets captured, you lose 1 unit. But to balance things out, maybe increase the percentage of your scout being captured?
Or
Maybe enable an option to form a scout party. Make people choose how many units you want to send out as scouts. More you send, more accurate your information becomes? Or to simplify things, screw the accuracy of information and just increase the capture rate.
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How about we just remove scouts as paraphernalia? Just let units scout? If your scout gets captured, you lose 1 unit. But to balance things out, maybe increase the percentage of your scout being captured?
We used to have that, almost. Once you ran out of scouts, you could send your soldiers as "untrained scouts". They were almost the same as trained scout reports, except you didn't get traveling/dugin status, and no CS. Then eventually that got dropped, and it was "scouts or nothing". I don't know why it got removed.
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Or, hell, we could really simplify things...And just say that you recruit a unit. You get to assign men to different functions. So, you recruit 50 troops, call five of them scouts, three of them form a healing team, five of them make an engineering team, ten make a siege team...Or, if you desperately frantically need every man to fight, you call them all back to do so.
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Or, hell, we could really simplify things...And just say that you recruit a unit. You get to assign men to different functions. So, you recruit 50 troops, call five of them scouts, three of them form a healing team, five of them make an engineering team, ten make a siege team...Or, if you desperately frantically need every man to fight, you call them all back to do so.
Interesting idea.
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Or, hell, we could really simplify things...And just say that you recruit a unit. You get to assign men to different functions. So, you recruit 50 troops, call five of them scouts, three of them form a healing team, five of them make an engineering team, ten make a siege team...Or, if you desperately frantically need every man to fight, you call them all back to do so.
That sounds more complicated than the current system to me. :p
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Oh yay...Micromanagement options. Now I can make everyone a healer to...heal everyone in the team! It's like Warcraft! Or Starcraft! Now we just need APM to matter...
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Someone commented the same thing with respect to healers. I am thinking of maybe creating more paraphernalia to cover these bases. Not many more, but a few. For example, I have always wanted to split siege engines into light (ladders, etc.) and heavy (siege towers and rams).
this was really my main concern, but I find that solution reasonable, different options with varying costs that essentially do more or less of the same thing.