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BattleMaster => Locals => East Island => Topic started by: Velax on April 04, 2012, 04:56:14 PM

Title: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 04, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
Anyone have any suggestions as to how Fontan's managed to put together such a massive force (the second largest on the continent, possibly the largest now given the 7-day delay on the stats) with just 7 regions and one of the weakest economies on the continent? Would it be cheap to mention that the leader of the "Saxons", and someone well known for being in a clan, is now part of Fontan?
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Indirik on April 04, 2012, 04:58:09 PM
You can do amazing things with guaranteed 100% cooperation and a good knowledge of game mechanics.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Chaotrance13 on April 04, 2012, 05:14:44 PM
I have often wondered the same question myself, Velax. I can't really say much more than that.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 04, 2012, 05:57:16 PM
Well some people do believe the Saxons have taken over Fontan's military. Which is why they went from 40 nobles to 55 in less than a week and a half.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Tom on April 04, 2012, 06:58:37 PM
It's obvious that some groups of players have found ways to be extremely efficient within the game.

I fear their way of accomplishing this efficiency is through ruthless powergaming, i.e. maximum efficiency at the expense of fun, internal conflict, politics and all the other social details that make the game interesting.

I have no proof, which is why I've not acted, yet. But if I'm right, than these people would be better off playing some other game, where maximum efficiency is in fact wanted.

Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Chaotrance13 on April 04, 2012, 07:17:53 PM
It's obvious that some groups of players have found ways to be extremely efficient within the game.

I fear their way of accomplishing this efficiency is through ruthless powergaming, i.e. maximum efficiency at the expense of fun, internal conflict, politics and all the other social details that make the game interesting.

I have no proof, which is why I've not acted, yet. But if I'm right, than these people would be better off playing some other game, where maximum efficiency is in fact wanted.

I actually think my old game, Cybernations, would be a better fit for them now that you mention it Tom.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Zakilevo on April 04, 2012, 07:24:05 PM
Well the only way to find it out is to join them and see how they do it. Too bad I made a character in Perdan .

I don't think it is too hard to reach such CS. CS diminishes as you hire more men but rises quickly when you have a low number of men which means you just need to make everyone hire even number of men to reach the maximum efficiency. Have you guys seen the battle report between Westmoor and Fontan? or other Saxon battle reports? Hits from Westmoor were being dispersed over 25-30 people (some hits weren't enough to wound).

Having 2 people with 1000 CS isn't as good as having 5 people with 200 CS each.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Anaris on April 04, 2012, 07:37:23 PM
Well the only way to find it out is to join them and see how they do it. Too bad I made a character in Perdan.

No, that only works if they're willing to share the secrets of their success with outsiders.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 04, 2012, 08:06:20 PM
Did some research and the general of Fontan has a character in Aurvandil which is supposedly a saxon realm. Also suspicious that they would let a relatively new noble become general
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Sacha on April 04, 2012, 08:18:16 PM
These Saxons are a recurring theme around BM... and wherever they go, rumors of powergaming, multi-cheating, bug exploiting and other shenanigans are quick to follow. But somehow they always manage to get off scot-free (on an OOC level at least).
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 04, 2012, 08:35:07 PM
Well there isn't much proof. All we know is where ever they "go" there is a sudden rise in noble count and military strength. Also, look at Fontans size do you really think they can pull of a 16000 CS army. Also, almost 100% movement on almost 100% of the time is something to be wary about as well, eh?
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Zakilevo on April 04, 2012, 08:36:00 PM
Probably because no one has found a solid evidence?
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Lorgan on April 04, 2012, 08:38:16 PM
There is nothing wrong with aiming for maximum efficiency or working like a team, under the condition that you do it with an open hand to other players in my opinion.
I personally enjoy fighting against and working together with other realms - really achieving something in game-terms - much more than the internal politics side of the game. Even though it can be very enjoyable, and really you need to have internal conflicts up to a certain level to keep things interesting at all times, it just too often leads to a bad atmosphere that cripples your realm. Then I rather work together closely with everyone in my realm and enjoy the occasional brawl amongst our own, all in good fun. That is, as far as I'm concerned, the perfect realm.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Anaris on April 04, 2012, 08:50:57 PM
There is nothing wrong with aiming for maximum efficiency or working like a team, under the condition that you do it with an open hand to other players in my opinion.

In and of itself, no, there's no problem with that as a goal.
 
Quote
I personally enjoy fighting against and working together with other realms - really achieving something in game-terms - much more than the internal politics side of the game. Even though it can be very enjoyable, and really you need to have internal conflicts up to a certain level to keep things interesting at all times, it just too often leads to a bad atmosphere that cripples your realm. Then I rather work together closely with everyone in my realm and enjoy the occasional brawl amongst our own, all in good fun. That is, as far as I'm concerned, the perfect realm.

This is perfectly true, too. Internal conflicts can be fun within certain boundaries, but in the end, you really want to play a team game most of the time.

However, the problem with the Saxons is that they have a team that has certain advantages that normal BattleMaster realms simply cannot mimic.

They have 100% movement, even late in the turn.
They can communicate outside the game to pass along orders or remind each other to move, or to switch from misdirection to moving, etc.
They can trust that none of their number will ever betray them.
They are willing to commit 100% of the resources of the realm to producing for war.
They can funnel gold en masse from other continents into whatever realm they have decided to take over.
They transfer gold around as a matter of course so that as little as possible is sitting unused at any given time.

None of these things, taken on their own, or even all together with a small group, would be a problem.

The problem is that they can do all this with a couple dozen players. That's enough to completely populate a reasonable-sized realm. (A relatively large one, if they each run two characters, which, on the EC, they can.)

BattleMaster was never designed to accommodate an entire realm's worth of players playing at perfect efficiency.

A realm like this is likely to steamroll almost anything in its path. And even if the rest of the continent manages to get together and defeat them, they'll just pick up and move somewhere else, causing more grief as they take over another realm, and then even more as they proceed to use that realm to destabilize the entire area it's located in.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Lorgan on April 04, 2012, 09:45:43 PM
A realm like this is likely to steamroll almost anything in its path. And even if the rest of the continent manages to get together and defeat them, they'll just pick up and move somewhere else, causing more grief as they take over another realm, and then even more as they proceed to use that realm to destabilize the entire area it's located in.

I agree they're spoiling the game for the original nobles of realms they join and I do not like the way they keep their ranks closed at all times, or how they come marching in a realm with immediate undying support of their clan-members, without giving the other side a chance.
I've had it happen to a realm of mine so I know it sucks and we were really fortunate to have a large enough power base of our own to ban them when they became too troublesome. And then I'm talking months of insults at my and the king's adress and the questioning of our every move, we tried to integrate them.. what can I say?

But... I also think that it is a good thing for EC that Fontan is punching above it's weight and managing a one on one war with Westmoor. If that war hadn't happened, it would have been a long and boring age of peace for EC once again.

And to be completely honest, because we had a comfortable power base in our realm, that was one of the times that we did have very serious internal conflicts that I enjoyed. Had we not had that solid powerbase... I can imagine it would've been very different though and I suppose that is what is happening in Fontan at the moment. Which really is deplorable.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 04, 2012, 10:20:14 PM
It sucks for the realms they are at war with. Who knows after they're done destroying Westmoor they'll maybe dream big and take Caligus off the map.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Zakilevo on April 05, 2012, 12:21:14 AM
The Saxons destroyed Arcachon. They wanted to take over the government by protesting the ruler out and putting their own on the throne. 5 rebellions in the span of a week...

They should really stop doing this. Ruining realms on purpose... Didn't Tom say clans are allowed as long as they do not ruin other people from enjoying the game?

Well I enjoyed those rebellions but there were some very unhappy people as well.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Turner on April 05, 2012, 01:53:34 AM
It sucks for the realms they are at war with. Who knows after they're done destroying Westmoor they'll maybe dream big and take Caligus off the map.

You are assuming Fontan will actually destroy Westmoor.

Proof or no Proof, it is clear that Fontan are operating with questionable tactics, my personal belief is they are not playing in good spirit.

Dont count Westmoor out just yet ;)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Lorgan on April 05, 2012, 01:55:06 AM
It sucks for the realms they are at war with. Who knows after they're done destroying Westmoor they'll maybe dream big and take Caligus off the map.

Indeed. If I was in Caligus, Sirion or Perdan and I saw an ambitious Fontan that is THAT efficient, I wouldn't want it to have any more resources at it's disposal. Some may not like Westmoor, but I bet they consider Westmoor to be a lot more harmless.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Zakilevo on April 05, 2012, 02:11:48 AM
Fontan somehow magically took Greatbridge in one day. The region was at Core control too. I am curious how they learned so much about the mechanics of the game.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Lorgan on April 05, 2012, 02:15:33 AM
Fontan somehow magically took Greatbridge in one day. The region was at Core control too. I am curious how they learned so much about the mechanics of the game.

Hah. Sounds like magic indeed. :P
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 02:50:49 AM
Yeah, that's very interesting. Maybe some other forms of TO's are being used by the Fontanese.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 03:46:33 AM
Allow me to answer on behalf of Fontan. My character Brock is Banker there and we do not play powergaming or any Saxon for that matter.

Efficient military? Got complain...

Not efficient military? Got complain too...

How are we able to satisfy everyone in this world? ;)

Anyway back to the topic.

Do anyone know we are playing "Rebuilding" phase during Peace time. I guess Westmoor has been slacking their socks off during Peace time. So when old Gregor the Fontan famous Traitor scouted our regions, he was shocked beyond belief. Anyone with sane mind will have guess Fontan is ready to reclaim back their lost lands. After Fontan secede much land to form Nivemus, we have been training our men regularly. If not, you can tell me for what purpose we receive gold income? To send to our family character in other island? No, we have been preparing well for this war. Too bad Westmoor was caught with their pants down :P

Maybe you should ask a question like this: Why Westmoor thrown their 13K CS against 19K CS Fontan the other day?

All in all, we are not ruining anyone game here. In Fontan, the Government System is Democracy. We have our own political and military bickering too at the moment, of which, I cannot reveal here. I can hint to you however, why there is 1 lone Fontan Troop Leader moving around and looting without military order?  ;D
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 03:55:30 AM
It's obvious that some groups of players have found ways to be extremely efficient within the game.

I fear their way of accomplishing this efficiency is through ruthless powergaming, i.e. maximum efficiency at the expense of fun, internal conflict, politics and all the other social details that make the game interesting.

I have no proof, which is why I've not acted, yet. But if I'm right, than these people would be better off playing some other game, where maximum efficiency is in fact wanted.
Tom, I not sure if you want investigate this. As one of my character in Fontan there as Brock, but if you check the messages that have been flowing in Fontan recently, I just checked today there are almost 50 messages flowing there. Rest assuredly, we are not powergaming. We just make use with what we have. You may take a look into our tax income, there is no need to share our tax income information here as Westmoor people are lurking around the post here  8)

Actually if Westmoor can gather more than that 13K CS against 19CS Fontan and destroy Fontan mobile army totally, Fontan is as good as dead. That is as good as a hint I can give out. Anyway why I am showing you about our Fontan secret? ;)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 04:25:34 AM
All that winking you did made me suspicious, but it's amazing how you managed to get 15 nobles in less than a week or two. Explain that, did all of sudden people want to say. "Hey, let's all go to this one duchy realm instead of going to the almighty Sirion or Perdan!" Nobody cares about your "Fontan secret" I just want to know how 55 nobles don't cash starve lords...
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Turner on April 05, 2012, 04:29:43 AM
Allow me to answer on behalf of Fontan. My character Brock is Banker there and we do not play powergaming or any Saxon for that matter.

Efficient military? Got complain...

Not efficient military? Got complain too...

How are we able to satisfy everyone in this world? ;)

Anyway back to the topic.

Do anyone know we are playing "Rebuilding" phase during Peace time. I guess Westmoor has been slacking their socks off during Peace time. So when old Gregor the Fontan famous Traitor scouted our regions, he was shocked beyond belief. Anyone with sane mind will have guess Fontan is ready to reclaim back their lost lands. After Fontan secede much land to form Nivemus, we have been training our men regularly. If not, you can tell me for what purpose we receive gold income? To send to our family character in other island? No, we have been preparing well for this war. Too bad Westmoor was caught with their pants down :P

Maybe you should ask a question like this: Why Westmoor thrown their 13K CS against 19K CS Fontan the other day?

All in all, we are not ruining anyone game here. In Fontan, the Government System is Democracy. We have our own political and military bickering too at the moment, of which, I cannot reveal here. I can hint to you however, why there is 1 lone Fontan Troop Leader moving around and looting without military order?  ;D

Of course you will say that, not like you would say otherwise to incriminate yourselves :)

We all know whats really going on anyways ;)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 04:33:41 AM
I'm sure you'll excuse us if we don't take the word of a person directly benefiting from this.

Fact is, you've got a person in there well known for running a clan. The same person was in Thulsoma and in Arcachon (a realm who also increased their CS far beyond what would normally be possible for a poor, tiny realm and had extraordinarily reliable movement). And the fact is you've got a 7-region realm with a combined mobile and militia CS of more than 30,000. That rings alarm bells.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 04:43:52 AM
All that winking you did made me suspicious, but it's amazing how you managed to get 15 nobles in less than a week or two. Explain that, did all of sudden people want to say. "Hey, let's all go to this one duchy realm instead of going to the almighty Sirion or Perdan!" Nobody cares about your "Fontan secret" I just want to know how 55 nobles don't cash starve lords...
Hmm, might as well accuse me of cheating then. I have been playing for years. Been on losing Oritolon war against Minas Thalion before Lukon grand entry into this 1 on 1 war on Colonies. Been on losing Fontan war against Sirion even with ally like SoA on East Island. Losing and winning gracefully is part of the game.

Ask your military council why they are not preparing well for the war in advance during Peace time. Do you know Fontan has been rebuilding all facilities and infrastructure in our Krimml city and all our regions which have been damaged badly during the great war? This does not happen overnight. As Banker, my character Brock has been requesting all lords to build Granary to store food and all sort of infrastructure 8)

15 nobles eh? That is a good question. Do you even know what you are asking? Let me ask you back. Some of the questions below can only be known by Bankers or Caligus/Perdan  ;D


Of course you may not know all these, so I do not really blame you. But please take a moment to consider that there are other factors that we both may not aware of. Give everyone a benefit of doubt eh? Heh, I did not aware of any Ruler channels discussion or other private discussions going on. Unless someone such as Ruler copy and paste or even summarize what going on in Ruler channel, only does the whole realm know ::)

Let enjoy the war. Maybe this 1 on 1 Westmoor vs Fontan war will influence all other realms to participate. With Ibladesh fall, there has been peace in East Continent. After all, this is Battlemaster, not Peacemaster eh? ;)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 04:45:17 AM
I'm sure you'll excuse us if we don't take the word of a person directly benefiting from this.

Fact is, you've got a person in there well known for running a clan. The same person was in Thulsoma and in Arcachon (a realm who also increased their CS far beyond what would normally be possible for a poor, tiny realm and had extraordinarily reliable movement). And the fact is you've got a 7-region realm with a combined mobile and militia CS of more than 30,000. That rings alarm bells.
Velax, I do not know any Saxon in Fontan. Do enlighten me then so that I can make more conflicts to add on to our current realm infighting. There are arguments in Fontan currently among ourselves, we may lose Oberndorf and Commonyr by the time the elections dust settle :-\

Excuse my biased opinion too. But I try find balance in between, so I may give the tips below which everyone in military should have known by now.

One thing you all may agree or disagree with me. Zakilevo will agree with me here, military force does not grow impressive overnight. You want a better army that move together at same time? Train them regularly against monsters/undead. You want better men cohesion? Things do not happen over 1 week period. There are things that require time to train. Do not tell me you can train your Men Cohesion to 70-80% in 1 week from a raw recruits.

Do not forget Westmoor had possession of Krimml city and destroyed a lot of infrastructure/buildings there. You cause us Fontan an extensive damage and you expect Peace from us, not War? You do not even want to compensate for the damages done. You are joking, right? This is what I say from Fontan perspective. IC, this is what my character Brock and most of my realmmates see after our dear Chancellor Ruler informs us of Westmoor not willing to compensate us  ::)

Zakilevo will be the right person to explain how Westmoor turned against Fontan during the end of Fontan vs Sirion war. Westmoor took advantage at that time when our Krimml city peasants revolted and joined them. Do you see me complaining and griping in forum about how Westmoor did not want to return Krimml city to Fontan? Until Sirion needs to step in. Heh, guys, stay cool 8)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 05:06:07 AM
I think we all gotta cool down and have a break. There are always 2 sides to a story, as there are 2 sides to a war. You are looking from your side perspective and I am looking for my side perspective.

Of course should Tom find any irregularities whether within Fontan or Westmoor or any other realms for that matter, I stand corrected  :)

You certainly do not want to know how my character Brock can be elected as Fontan Banker even after he went and broke all Unique Items in his past days as Adventurer. Relationships and gaining realmmates trusts do not happen overnight either. I even had my other character in Sirion by the name of May Ketchum, who got deported to Colonies. Been wanting to have Brock from Fontan and May from Sirion battle against each other during Sirion vs Fontan war. Oh, well. Maybe some other day, I can coolly wait for that day 8)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 05:07:18 AM
If it weren't for Sirion interference, Fontan would have probably been down to it's last region... Also that information you said about priests of Ibladesh, interesting information for Perdan don't ya think. ;)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Adriddae on April 05, 2012, 05:23:37 AM
Hmm, I think they replaced all their pack and war animals with pokemon. That explains their rapid economic and military buildup. ;)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 05:25:18 AM
All that winking you did made me suspicious, but it's amazing how you managed to get 15 nobles in less than a week or two. Explain that, did all of sudden people want to say. "Hey, let's all go to this one duchy realm instead of going to the almighty Sirion or Perdan!" Nobody cares about your "Fontan secret" I just want to know how 55 nobles don't cash starve lords...
I do not understand how our forum is working here. Why the innocent one has to prove themselves not guilty? I have a few messages asking me or the whole Fontan realm for gold as they have receive less tax gold during tax day. We all even set our men to be pay at maximum 9 days. Do not forget Fontan army does loot tax gold of Westmoor lands. Does this not answer your question?

If you are still asking for proof, please log an issue at Magistrate for further investigation if you suspect us of any hanky panky. Provide proof too. Below are but a small part of messages proof I can show you. My character Brock the Banker does not have even 100 gold to spare this poor Dame as he command big Archer unit.

=====
Letter from Yvonne Peugeot   (12 days ago)

Lord Ketchum,

I do apologize for taking your time, but I was wondering if I may take out a loan from the treasury. My unit has become quite experienced and I am now unable to pay for their services. My intent is to transfer them into militia as soon as I can pay them off to raise a another unit.

Thank you for hearing my request,

-Dame Yvonne
Yvonne Peugeot (Dame of Negev)
=====
Report from Brock Ketchum
(Personal message to Yvonne Peugeot)
You have successfully transferred 50 bonds to Yvonne.

Tax is coming tomorrow.
Brock Ketchum
Minister of Finance of Fontan
=====
Unit Status Report
Your men are getting really angry about the lack of gold in their purses. You haven't paid them for 8 days now.
Morale of your troops falls 7 points.
=====
Paraphernalia Report
Your Scouts are complaining about not having been paid for 8 days. Unless you pay them, they can desert.
=====
Looting Activity

Someone from our realm has robbed the tax gold of Greatbridge (Westmoor).
=====

Can you show me the proof there is a bug in tax in Fontan realm? Please do not accuse innocent players who are also playing in Fontan 8)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Zakilevo on April 05, 2012, 05:27:50 AM
Velax, I do not know any Saxon in Fontan. Do enlighten me then so that I can make more conflicts to add on to our current realm infighting. There are arguments in Fontan currently among ourselves, we may lose Oberndorf and Commonyr by the time the elections dust settle :-\

Excuse my biased opinion too. But I try find balance in between, so I may give the tips below which everyone in military should have known by now.

One thing you all may agree or disagree with me. Zakilevo will agree with me here, military force does not grow impressive overnight. You want a better army that move together at same time? Train them regularly against monsters/undead. You want better men cohesion? Things do not happen over 1 week period. There are things that require time to train. Do not tell me you can train your Men Cohesion to 70-80% in 1 week from a raw recruits.

Do not forget Westmoor had possession of Krimml city and destroyed a lot of infrastructure/buildings there. You cause us Fontan an extensive damage and you expect Peace from us, not War? You do not even want to compensate for the damages done. You are joking, right? This is what I say from Fontan perspective. IC, this is what my character Brock and most of my realmmates see after our dear Chancellor Ruler informs us of Westmoor not willing to compensate us  ::)

Zakilevo will be the right person to explain how Westmoor turned against Fontan during the end of Fontan vs Sirion war. Westmoor took advantage at that time when our Krimml city peasants revolted and joined them. Do you see me complaining and griping in forum about how Westmoor did not want to return Krimml city to Fontan? Until Sirion needs to step in. Heh, guys, stay cool 8)

Don't forget Fontan still got good players and lots of Ibbies joined the realm.

As for Fontan vs Sirion, as usual Westmoor became opportunistic when the city joined Westmoor. Westmoor refused to give back the city. Sirion has to do the job of returning the city :/

Ketchum, having Vanimedle'- famous for being hive minded- in your realm will piss people off. Go through the list of recently joined nobles and you will see many of them have a character in Aurvandil.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 05:29:44 AM
If it weren't for Sirion interference, Fontan would have probably been down to it's last region... Also that information you said about priests of Ibladesh, interesting information for Perdan don't ya think. ;)
Well, like I say, you can do whatever you want to do. After all, Westmoor is born from Perdan flesh, is it not? Perdan is your Mother land, surely Mother does not want see their child getting hurt.

Or you may even invent any evidence IC and show to Perdan/Caligus/Sirion for that matter. This has happened in previous wars and it will continue to happen in future wars.

Just Warrrrr...... Let the blood spillllll...... Let all realms take sidessssss.... Heh.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Zakilevo on April 05, 2012, 05:29:51 AM
I do not understand how our forum is working here. Why the innocent one has to prove themselves not guilty? I have a few messages asking me or the whole Fontan realm for gold as they have receive less tax gold during tax day. We all even set our men to be pay at maximum 9 days. Do not forget Fontan army does loot tax gold of Westmoor lands. Does this not answer your question?

If you are still asking for proof, please log an issue at Magistrate for further investigation if you suspect us of any hanky panky. Provide proof too. Below are but a small part of messages proof I can show you. My character Brock the Banker does not have even 100 gold to spare this poor Dame as he command big Archer unit.

=====
Letter from Yvonne Peugeot   (12 days ago)

Lord Ketchum,

I do apologize for taking your time, but I was wondering if I may take out a loan from the treasury. My unit has become quite experienced and I am now unable to pay for their services. My intent is to transfer them into militia as soon as I can pay them off to raise a another unit.

Thank you for hearing my request,

-Dame Yvonne
Yvonne Peugeot (Dame of Negev)
=====
Report from Brock Ketchum
(Personal message to Yvonne Peugeot)
You have successfully transferred 50 bonds to Yvonne.

Tax is coming tomorrow.
Brock Ketchum
Minister of Finance of Fontan
=====
Unit Status Report
Your men are getting really angry about the lack of gold in their purses. You haven't paid them for 8 days now.
Morale of your troops falls 7 points.
=====
Paraphernalia Report
Your Scouts are complaining about not having been paid for 8 days. Unless you pay them, they can desert.
=====
Looting Activity

Someone from our realm has robbed the tax gold of Greatbridge (Westmoor).
=====

Can you show me the proof there is a bug in tax in Fontan realm? Please do not accuse innocent players who are also playing in Fontan 8)

It is mentally healthy for you to avoid using the forum.  8)

Forum = your daily source of stress and ridicule.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Lefanis on April 05, 2012, 05:30:37 AM
The Saxons destroyed Arcachon. They wanted to take over the government by protesting the ruler out and putting their own on the throne. 5 rebellions in the span of a week...

Well, it did all go downhill from there.

We had about 40 nobles, of which 25 were Saxons (double characters mostly)... We got rid of them after some excruciating rebellions after they tried to seize power, but as it turns out, with our depleted strength, our realm just got wiped out later.

If the Saxons have taken over Fontan, I'm pretty sure Ketchum won't have noticed (yet). It took me and a few others in Arcachon quite a while to grasp exactly what the hell they were doing (for a while I believed it was just innocent politicking). Im sure there are innocent players in Fontan like Ketchum. But I learnt the hard way that no Saxon can be trusted, IC or OOC. For a while I thought that many of the players in Arcachon were dedicated, just like Ketchum does here, before I started putting the dots together. No realm should have to face something like that.

I hope for the sake of the good players in Fontan they figure out what's happening to their realm, before it's too late and the clanners have seized power. I'm sure 15 nobles in two weeks isn't the last we hear of the population boom in Fontan.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 05:51:51 AM
Well, like I say, you can do whatever you want to do. After all, Westmoor is born from Perdan flesh, is it not? Perdan is your Mother land, surely Mother does not want see their child getting hurt.

Or you may even invent any evidence IC and show to Perdan/Caligus/Sirion for that matter. This has happened in previous wars and it will continue to happen in future wars.

Just Warrrrr...... Let the blood spillllll...... Let all realms take sidessssss.... Heh.

I mean that Perdan is chasing down any remnants of the CoI meaning if Fontan doesn't get rid of them... Yeah, you get the point :o
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 05:54:28 AM
It is mentally healthy for you to avoid using the forum.  8)

Forum = your daily source of stress and ridicule.
Zakilevo, thank you for your reminding. Then you will have nobody from Fontan to state their side perspective on current war, in forum. Look to me I am the only player bother to check in forum. If not, I do not even know there are so many Westmoor players perspectives against Fontan. I will keep less time checking on forum then  8)

If the Saxons have taken over Fontan, I'm pretty sure Ketchum won't have noticed (yet). It took me and a few others in Arcachon quite a while to grasp exactly what the hell they were doing (for a while I believed it was just innocent politicking). Im sure there are innocent players in Fontan like Ketchum. But I learnt the hard way that no Saxon can be trusted, IC or OOC. For a while I thought that many of the players in Arcachon were dedicated, just like Ketchum does here, before I started putting the dots together. No realm should have to face something like that.
Well, this is entirely out of my control then especially about the clanners part. Should Tom, Developers or Magistrates find out there is any hanky panky, I stand being corrected. Please show me the proof, do not simply say and open a topic in forum just complaining and griping about how we could have abuse the game mechanic. Especially when you know war preparation and planning, army strength and all sort of things that go to war machine, all these stuffs do not happen overnight.

I already say my earlier Fontan perspective. The Krimml city where Westmoor refused to compensate us Fontan for the damage, this is one of the major reasons that most of Fontan people do have. You may choose to disbelieve me on account of me alone against so many Westmoor people talking here. You can ask those Fontan people who are there at the time when Westmoor control Krimml city, dont ask those 15 new nobles joining in, as those 15 are not there. The truth is out there, like that X-Files TV Show always say. It may get distorted as in "History is written by the victor"  :P

But if there is no hanky panky, what do you think you want to say to me later on? Heh. All in all, let focus on playing our part in the current war. If you not on in this war, come join us but invent more evidence or just plainly say you hate that guy. War had happen before on even a flimsy excuse.

After all, I as player OOC strictly speaking, I am thinking my character Brock and whole Fontan have been misled by our dear Chancellor IC. Oh, well, that is one more conflict I can play and act out too IC, to add on to additional conflicts we already have now  ;D
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 06:15:51 AM
I mean that Perdan is chasing down any remnants of the CoI meaning if Fontan doesn't get rid of them... Yeah, you get the point :o
Yeah, I get your point. That's why I put to you that there is indeed priests of CoI joining Fontan. You should know the priests better than I am, then why not you use this to your tactical advantage? Do not ask me suggest how to bring downfall of Fontan because like you stated, I can biased ;D

Don't forget Fontan still got good players and lots of Ibbies joined the realm.

As for Fontan vs Sirion, as usual Westmoor became opportunistic when the city joined Westmoor. Westmoor refused to give back the city. Sirion has to do the job of returning the city :/

Ketchum, having Vanimedle'- famous for being hive minded- in your realm will piss people off. Go through the list of recently joined nobles and you will see many of them have a character in Aurvandil.
Zakilevo, heh. All of those Westmoor people think that those characters in fallen Ibladesh will migrate to other islands. Nobody even think they will and can take refugees in other realms. Perhaps they are too biased in their opinions as so am I  :P

Vanimedle eh? I will look those 15 people up. Some old timer people may be going for rebellion as they protest a newcomer taking up a Vice Marshal role. As they not abusing the game mechanic so far, there is no strong case. I trying to be unbiased here, should anything suspicious happening in Fontan realm, I will keep you all updated  ::)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Bedwyr on April 05, 2012, 06:17:12 AM
Should Tom, Developers or Magistrates find out there is any hanky panky, I stand being corrected.

He has, and they have.  Repeatedly.  There is considerable, replicated, and game-balance affecting evidence that something not right is going on, and Tom, the Devs, and the Magistrates have discussed the situation several times.

However, at the same time, since the family gold exploit in Thulsoma there has not, so far as I know, been any recorded instance of outright cheating.  Powergaming aplenty, but powergaming, in and of itself, is not something that Tom or the Titans or Magistrates has actually punished before.  They do incorporate others into their efforts, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, so they do not fit the definition of an excluding clan.  It also makes it difficult to sort out who is who, and what to do about the situation.

That does not mean that the situation is not questionable.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 06:24:48 AM
He has, and they have.  Repeatedly.  There is considerable, replicated, and game-balance affecting evidence that something not right is going on, and Tom, the Devs, and the Magistrates have discussed the situation several times.

However, at the same time, since the family gold exploit in Thulsoma there has not, so far as I know, been any recorded instance of outright cheating.  Powergaming aplenty, but powergaming, in and of itself, is not something that Tom or the Titans or Magistrates has actually punished before.  They do incorporate others into their efforts, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, so they do not fit the definition of an excluding clan.  It also makes it difficult to sort out who is who, and what to do about the situation.

That does not mean that the situation is not questionable.
Thank you for your timely reply. I am really worry not for my own sake. I am not innocent either as I have character in Fontan. So please do not judge me as all fair and all innocent, all pure white yet  8)

If I get what these discussion right so far, you all complaining, suggesting, griping how Fontan army grow stronger, why 15 nobles all joined Fontan.

To the first part about army, Zakilevo has stated too, I am not the lone "biased" voice as some of you call me here. Time and training, my fellow Battlemasterians! Are you all sleeping during Peace phase? Peace Phase is also known as Building and Rebuilding Phase, is it not? Do not blame enemy for your incompetence in war, blame your General for leading you all to a wasted defeat of 13K CS against 19K Enemy CS. Why your military launched that ill-fated attack knowing not enough CS for a win? Elect, appoint better General like Zakilevo who unintentionally spelled out Fontan strategy. Heh. ::)

To second part about 15 nobles join Fontan in 2 weeks. Well, war attract people. Wrong and right kind. It cannot be avoidable, I am human too. The player playing character in Fontan are all human too. Please bear in mind there are many old timers and innocent players in Fontan. As biased as you maybe in Westmoor perspective, do take this into consideration as well.

Developers, If you wish to investigate, please perform investigation on everyone in the realm. Nobody should be spared, not even me. For all you know, maybe I am even bluffing here. Heh. ;)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Bedwyr on April 05, 2012, 06:39:30 AM
Thank you for your timely reply. I am really worry not for my own sake. I am not innocent either as I have character in Fontan. So please do not judge me as fair and all innocent yet  8)

If I get what these discussion right so far, you all complaining, suggesting, griping how Fontan army grow stronger, why 15 nobles all joined Fontan. To the first part about army, Zakilevo has stated too, I am not the lone "biased" voice as some of you call me here. Time and training, my fellow Battlemasterians! Are you all sleeping during Peace phase? Peace Phase is also known as Building and Rebuilding Phase, is it not? Do not blame enemy for your incompetence in war, blame your General for leading you all to a wasted defeat of 13K CS against 19K Enemy CS. Why your military launched that ill-fated attack? ::)

If you wish to investigate, please perform investigation on everyone in the realm. Nobody should be spared, not even me ;)

I'm not complaining about anything with regard to Fontan.  All of my characters are currently paused, and I have no stake in a war between Fontan and Westmoor in the slightest.  I haven't had a character on the EC in a while, and when I did, he was in Perdan solely because he wanted to fight in a big war and die a glorious death.

I am also familiar with using peace as a preparation for war.  And as I pointed out, nothing about the previous situations (excluding Thulsoma) and I don't really doubt that nothing about the current situation is cheating, nor, in fact, is it likely a violation of the social contract.  I'm familiar enough with the playing style that I think I know what kinds of people are involved, and they are playing how they would with friends.

That does not change the fact that the situation is an imbalance in the game.  Either others will need to start using their methods (which many in the game once did, as some of the older players will recall Abington, Perdan and others at their strongest) which many would prefer not happen as things then were often stressful, or something will need to be done to ameliorate or remove their influence.  That's not an easy situation, or an easy decision.

That all doesn't mean that the situation is not one for concern.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Turner on April 05, 2012, 06:56:45 AM
Quote
Do not forget Westmoor had possession of Krimml city and destroyed a lot of infrastructure/buildings there. You cause us Fontan an extensive damage and you expect Peace from us, not War? You do not even want to compensate for the damages done. You are joking, right? This is what I say from Fontan perspective. IC, this is what my character Brock and most of my realmmates see after our dear Chancellor Ruler informs us of Westmoor not willing to compensate us  ::)

Let me explain something from the Westmoor side.

Former King Flaylen refused to return Krimml to Fotan, causing the issue.

After Flaylen was removed via protests, former King Maedros ascended to the throne and attempted to mend the fence between Westmoor and Fontan. He formally apologised over the incident and formally ceased all claims and rights to Krimml and acknowledged it belonged to Fontan. We attempted to make peace and heal the wounds, Fontan was never interested in this.

I also will remind you that Fontan and Sirion heavily damaged the city when you forcibly retook it. Dont blame this on Westmoor when it was your own fault for causing the damage to it.

Prior to the ceasefire, Westmoor sued quite vigorously for peace. We agreed to halt our forces within Westmoorian lands while we held diplomatic discussions with your Ambassadors. Yet, during this time, Fontan kept sending forces into our lands, striking at our nobles and plundering regions for tax gold.

After we agreed to the ceasefire we put together a fair and just peace agreement which Fontan refused to accept. Even Sirion's leader agreed it was a reasonable peace proposal that we had put forth.

Instead you make unreasonable demands for insane amounts of gold for damage to property your own forces made, try to make claims on Westmoorian lands, attempt to impose unreasonable military restrictions on our bordering regions.

No, Fotan never wanted peace. Just breathing room so they could rebuild.

I accept the issue over Krimml and what happened, former King Flaylen made a mistake on that part which caused hostilities between the two realms. But after he was removed, Westmoor made attempts more than once, to rectify the situation.

What attempts or efforts did Fontan make at all, if any??

None.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 07:56:57 AM
This thread is not for the discussion of IC grievances between Fontan and Westmoor. You already have a thread for that, just below this one. Go use it.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Iltaran on April 05, 2012, 08:43:35 AM
For what its worth the only really odd thing Fontan has managed is raising 19K CS off a tiny realm. I'm still not entirely sure how they've done that and I'm a fair hand with the spreadsheet of doom.

So far their military movement has been fairly good by EC standards, but certainly not at the level of say, Perdan or the BT realms.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 09:07:05 AM
It's more than 30k, actually, according to the stats. And that was a week ago. Some of that might be militia, but militia still needs to be paid.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: mikm on April 05, 2012, 01:05:48 PM
I have noticed during the first battle  Westmoor had mostly infantry and very litle of everything else.
Fontan on the hand had a considerable amount of cavalry, archers and special forces, despite having less infantry than Westmoor
This diverse army is what counted more than just the CS scores, in my opinion.

Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Feylonis on April 05, 2012, 02:57:26 PM
"My side is losing, the other side must be cheating." :|
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 03:08:42 PM
Heh, the typical response from one of the "Saxons". Might want to do your research first, though. I don't have a character in Westmoor, and don't really give a [email protected]#$ about that realm one way or the other. What I do care about, though, is powergamers and clanners ruining the game for those realms they attack. Maybe it's not technically cheating, but you are having a detrimental effect on people not in the same realm as you. And often for those that are in the same realm, if Arcachon is any example. Averoth, Thulsoma, Arcachon, Caerwyn, Auvrandil, now Fontan. Will it stop at some point, or will you just keep infecting another realm when you eventually and inevitably lose in your current ones?
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Sonya on April 05, 2012, 03:25:06 PM
This seems a Joke, everyone wonders about Fontan? Fontan have been like that all the time, after Fontan's Defeat, everyone stayed there, what you see now is the same military leadership you saw in the past, what happens now is that Fontan is fighting only 1 realm when the realm used to fight multiple front at same time, that's hows Fontan have been, and will be until you send 2 or 3 realms against Fontan how have been happening in the past.

We planned every single attack as soon the peace was settle, Fontan were building the strength over recruiting and training troops daily, while Westmoor was, well........planting flower or something, and as soon the war started Fontan was over recruited.

The initial fight who decided the current curse of the war was a mistake of Westmoor to send 13574CS vs. 19417CS, and after that battle Fontan has 14766CS running around Westmoor provinces. That man and those people you saw that joined Fontan did it after that battle.

Total:
18 attackers (861 Inf, 293 Arch, 40 SF)
40 defenders (538 Inf, 83 MI, 508 Arch, 146 Cav, 217 SF)
Total combat strengths: 13574 vs. 19417


Yes i am part of Fontan (if you haven't noticed by now) is not that i am defending a bad thing, in case it were happening, what makes me angry is the poor conclusion many of you make at first glance, Westmoor have the strength to overrun Fontan,  but instead doing so, their leader just waste turns running around Oligarch, while Fontan loot their regions, these are the things they should focus more, by now i have farmed more than 100 golds looting just two regions from Westmoor, that's where Fontan's income  comes from.


In the peace time you used to read 1 or 2 messages per day, now i have to spend hours reading troughs more than 100!!



Peace!
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Blue Star on April 05, 2012, 03:33:53 PM
Honestly, I think Tom and his team can sure go about and solve this issue but really that solves nothing. What if they just move to a different realm? What if they just get deleted? Were just passing along the problem.

I think we should see how this all develops and take it from there. I mean if we the players can't protect ourselves then were not doing so great ourselves. I see this as sure a opportunity for them to take over Fontan and who knows maybe bash Westmoor in a bit or we can see this as a new threat and go have some fun with it. There are enough reasons ic to protect certain realms with out talk of saxon invasion.

Personally, this might give some more life to EC. Saxons or not (leaning toward saxons) we should have some fun with it. *Coughs* I recall the old Fontan and the dstoryed Avarmar had a run in with a clan.

 I think my character would consider them more a faction that has rose up probably of lesser nobles that are trying to make something of themselves and eventually need to be put in there place.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: feyeleanor on April 05, 2012, 03:39:26 PM
Fontan somehow magically took Greatbridge in one day. The region was at Core control too. I am curious how they learned so much about the mechanics of the game.

There was no magic. We put 13K CS in the region and looted it to the ground for three turns. Personally I expected it to take a turn or two longer, but clearly the game does allow a three turn TO or it couldn't have happened.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 03:53:26 PM
I think we are all overexaggerating, let's see how the war turns out, if Westmoor wins where will the talk of Saxons go? Also, Sonya, I'm pretty sure you can't get 100 gold from looting rural regions....
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: DamnTaffer on April 05, 2012, 04:06:47 PM
Velax, Velax, Velax do you accuse every realm of cheating when they do something you don't think is possible?
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Anaris on April 05, 2012, 04:09:49 PM
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 04:11:42 PM
Velax, Velax, Velax do you accuse every realm of cheating when they do something you don't think is possible?

Maybe it's not technically cheating, but you are having a detrimental effect on people not in the same realm as you. And often for those that are in the same realm, if Arcachon is any example.

Reading is not your forte, apparently.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 04:13:06 PM
Anti-Saxon clan anyone?
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: DoctorHarte on April 05, 2012, 04:15:49 PM
It's pretty much this: Players heard from other players or on the forums that Fontan got ina  war with Westmoor. They remember how old and fun Fontan is, so they make a new character for Fontan in order to save the realm. I mean hell, if they lose this war they're goners - they only have 1 city.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 04:18:56 PM
Sirion is a fun realm to be in as well. If you like winning....
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: DamnTaffer on April 05, 2012, 04:21:54 PM
Anti-Saxon clan anyone?

Who's definition of Saxon? The actual players from Thulsoma or Averoth, Thulsoma, Arcachon, Caerwyn, Aurvandil and Fontan?
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: feyeleanor on April 05, 2012, 04:23:05 PM
All that winking you did made me suspicious, but it's amazing how you managed to get 15 nobles in less than a week or two. Explain that, did all of sudden people want to say. "Hey, let's all go to this one duchy realm instead of going to the almighty Sirion or Perdan!" Nobody cares about your "Fontan secret" I just want to know how 55 nobles don't cash starve lords...

I'd guess many of them are refugees from the south. When a realm the size of Ibladesh self-destructs many players lose interest in the rebuilding, something we experienced in Fontan when the war with Sirion ended. There's also been some immigration from Sirion which now lacks any obvious enemy.

If Fontan's last rise to prominence taught us anything it's that the scent of a good war encourages immigration, whilst the boisterous nature of a democracy leads to a high rate of retention. That's how at one time we had 160+ nobles.

As to the finances of those nobles, I assume some of them are relying on family gold but there's hardly any crime in that. I have characters in the Colonies who have to do much the same at times.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: DamnTaffer on April 05, 2012, 04:25:33 PM
Reading is not your forte, apparently.

Nor english yours, just because you put that perhaps it isn't cheating, doesn't mean your not accusing of it... What your actually doing is pretending to have an open mind while openly and rather stalwardly accusing a group of players a group which constantly expands depending on whom has done ANYTHING of merit that day on battlemaster of cheating.

-----------Rewriten------

You are accusing players of cheating, just because you said that perhaps they might not be cheating, doesn't mean you are not accusing them of cheating.

Your defination of "Saxon" is getting absurd, Averoth and Thulsoma are not the same realm, they are however both dead, as such there nobles moved to other realms. That does not mean that within any realm where there is a saxon that there is cheating. Nor does it mean that any realm a Saxon is titled that within that realm is a powergaming clan
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 04:34:39 PM
Not sure I'm the one with the English problem, because I have little idea of what you just said.

You and your fellow Saxons need to get over this victim mentality of "Oh, they just complain when we win" and actually address and take on board people's concerns. You're certainly not doing yourself any favours here.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 04:37:05 PM
Not sure I'm the one with the English problem, because I have little idea of what you just said.

You and your fellow Saxons need to get over this victim mentality of "Oh, they just complain when we win" and actually address and take on board people's concerns. You're certainly not doing yourself any favours here.
Velax, do I do myself a favor explaining in my earlier posts? I feel I have been giving too much away already  8)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: DamnTaffer on April 05, 2012, 04:38:42 PM
Not sure I'm the one with the English problem, because I have little idea of what you just said.

You and your fellow Saxons need to get over this victim mentality of "Oh, they just complain when we win" and actually address and take on board people's concerns. You're certainly not doing yourself any favours here.

Velax, if you don't understand, i'll rewrite that post for you.

But, I'm not a Saxon, and your assumation that: Finds your constant persecution of saxons ridiculous > is a Saxon, is wrong.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: feyeleanor on April 05, 2012, 04:48:51 PM
Let me explain something from the Westmoor side.

Former King Flaylen refused to return Krimml to Fotan, causing the issue.

After Flaylen was removed via protests, former King Maedros ascended to the throne and attempted to mend the fence between Westmoor and Fontan. He formally apologised over the incident and formally ceased all claims and rights to Krimml and acknowledged it belonged to Fontan. We attempted to make peace and heal the wounds, Fontan was never interested in this.

I also will remind you that Fontan and Sirion heavily damaged the city when you forcibly retook it. Dont blame this on Westmoor when it was your own fault for causing the damage to it.

Prior to the ceasefire, Westmoor sued quite vigorously for peace. We agreed to halt our forces within Westmoorian lands while we held diplomatic discussions with your Ambassadors. Yet, during this time, Fontan kept sending forces into our lands, striking at our nobles and plundering regions for tax gold.

After we agreed to the ceasefire we put together a fair and just peace agreement which Fontan refused to accept. Even Sirion's leader agreed it was a reasonable peace proposal that we had put forth.

Instead you make unreasonable demands for insane amounts of gold for damage to property your own forces made, try to make claims on Westmoorian lands, attempt to impose unreasonable military restrictions on our bordering regions.

No, Fotan never wanted peace. Just breathing room so they could rebuild.

I accept the issue over Krimml and what happened, former King Flaylen made a mistake on that part which caused hostilities between the two realms. But after he was removed, Westmoor made attempts more than once, to rectify the situation.

What attempts or efforts did Fontan make at all, if any??

None.

Speaking as a player, I personally wish Basilius had let the matter lie until Fontan had an army with which to fight a war, but he didn't and as my character Rhidhana was Minister of Defence she fought the most effective campaign she could under the circumstances. Westmoor by contrast fought a very poor campaign, punctuated if I remember rightly by one of their semi-regular civil wars.

All military activity stopped when the ceasefire was agreed. That's the point of a ceasefire.

Since then Fontan has allowed Westmoor more than enough opportunities to sign the peace treaty agreed subsequent to the ceasefire but King Jor seemed determined to keep removing equitable terms and replacing them with terms wholly advantageous to Westmoor, which was not a fair reflection of the military situation at the time of the ceasefire.

King Jor must think that starting a war now and displaying Westmoor's usual military competence will drag Perdan and Caligus in, allowing him to gain Fontan's lands as a gift from them. There's no other reasonable justification for picking a war which his realm is very likely to lose.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: feyeleanor on April 05, 2012, 04:55:10 PM
I think we are all overexaggerating, let's see how the war turns out, if Westmoor wins where will the talk of Saxons go? Also, Sonya, I'm pretty sure you can't get 100 gold from looting rural regions....

Pick the right day and the right region... during the last war with Westmoor I looted 800 gold in two weeks from her southern provinces. That not only paid for my substantial company of archers, it also put some much needed gold in the pockets of my knights :)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Tom on April 05, 2012, 05:02:10 PM
Regarding the view of the dev team - we are fairly certain there is no actual cheating going on.

However, we have noticed certain groups of players repeatedly showing the same approach to whatever realm they happen to be in at that time, and that has us worried because they are powergaming. Not speaking specifically about Fontan, we don't like it when an entire realm works like clockwork with almost no internal messages, no conflict, no nothing. Playing a piece in a machine is not what BattleMaster is about and more importantly, organizing the whole thing OOC whether amongst friends on the school yard or on IRC is borderline abusive because it excludes the other players who aren't members of your gang, clan or whatever you want to call it.

This is why we keep our eyes on certain realms.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 05:09:14 PM
Your defination of "Saxon" is getting absurd, Averoth and Thulsoma are not the same realm, they are however both dead, as such there nobles moved to other realms. That does not mean that within any realm where there is a saxon that there is cheating. Nor does it mean that any realm a Saxon is titled that within that realm is a powergaming clan

I've already stated, repeatedly, why I have said what I said. The leader of these clanners joined Fontan. Within a relatively short space of time Fontan now has the the second strongest, possibly strongest, military on the continent, outpacing established powerhouses like Perdan and even Sirion, despite having just 7 regions and a piss-poor economy. This clan leader had just left another realm on another island where the exact same thing happened - a one duchy realm with mainly quite poor regions managed to put some 25,000 CS together - not just once or twice, but consistently, for months - as well as having near-perfect movement rates. And this is the same clan - lead by the same person - who was responsible for the Thulsoma family gold exploit. While they got away with it scott-free because the devs never considered that anyone would so brazenly abuse the system and so never made a rule against it, it certainly proves that this clan is more than willing to employ any measure it can, dodgy or otherwise, to win. Maybe that's the type of game you want to play, but it's certainly not the type I want to.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 05:09:38 PM
Speaking as a player, I personally wish Basilius had let the matter lie until Fontan had an army with which to fight a war, but he didn't and as my character Rhidhana was Minister of Defence she fought the most effective campaign she could under the circumstances. Westmoor by contrast fought a very poor campaign, punctuated if I remember rightly by one of their semi-regular civil wars.

All military activity stopped when the ceasefire was agreed. That's the point of a ceasefire.

Since then Fontan has allowed Westmoor more than enough opportunities to sign the peace treaty agreed subsequent to the ceasefire but King Jor seemed determined to keep removing equitable terms and replacing them with terms wholly advantageous to Westmoor, which was not a fair reflection of the military situation at the time of the ceasefire.

King Jor must think that starting a war now and displaying Westmoor's usual military competence will drag Perdan and Caligus in, allowing him to gain Fontan's lands as a gift from them. There's no other reasonable justification for picking a war which his realm is very likely to lose.

Ok, so before the Sirion interception, who do you think would have won the war? Westmoor was in control of both Commonyr and Oberndorf. Until Sirion stepped in and wanted peace for a future Nivemus to be created... So I'm sure King Jor had a reason on why to not except Fontan's rediculous "peace offers", when so clearly Fontan would be down to Krimml by now.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Chaotrance13 on April 05, 2012, 05:15:41 PM
(Whining, insults and bitching here)

I don't mind fighting a war and losing even if it's something like two realms versus one. But what I do mind is when clans get involved and I have players who I consider my friends tell me "I'm leaving after this, this isn't why I play this game" when they find out that the Saxons are involved. But I suppose as long as you win, you'll take your sick, twisted and perverse pleasure in it OOC.

I hope your conscience sits well with this, because it is you and your friends who allowed the Saxons to take hold and put Fontan into overdrive. And it is because of you and your friends that means my friends will leave this game.

That is why I asked Tom via email to take a look. And while it's not classified as cheating, it leaves a foul taste in my mouth that isn't easily washed away. I left other games to get away from this hive-mind mentality. And now I find it's cropped up again, I'm also not sure whether I want to continue playing either.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 05:24:40 PM
I don't mind fighting a war and losing even if it's something like two realms versus one. But what I do mind is when clans get involved and I have players who I consider my friends tell me "I'm leaving after this, this isn't why I play this game" when they find out that the Saxons are involved. But I suppose as long as you win, you'll take your sick, twisted and perverse pleasure in it OOC.

I hope your conscience sits well with this, because it is you and your friends who allowed the Saxons to take hold and put Fontan into overdrive. And it is because of you and your friends that means my friends will leave this game.

That is why I asked Tom via email to take a look. And while it's not classified as cheating, it leaves a foul taste in my mouth that isn't easily washed away. I left other games to get away from this hive-mind mentality. And now I find it's cropped up again, I'm also not sure whether I want to continue playing either.

Aww, c'mon man don't do that. :( I'm sure we'll get through this ordeal...
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: DamnTaffer on April 05, 2012, 05:26:48 PM
I've already stated, repeatedly, why I have said what I said. The leader of these clanners joined Fontan. Within a relatively short space of time Fontan now has the the second strongest, possibly strongest, military on the continent, outpacing established powerhouses like Perdan and even Sirion, despite having just 7 regions and a piss-poor economy. This clan leader had just left another realm on another island where the exact same thing happened - a one duchy realm with mainly quite poor regions managed to put some 25,000 CS together - not just once or twice, but consistently, for months - as well as having near-perfect movement rates. And this is the same clan - lead by the same person - who was responsible for the Thulsoma family gold exploit. While they got away with it scott-free because the devs never considered that anyone would so brazenly abuse the system and so never made a rule against it, it certainly proves that this clan is more than willing to employ any measure it can, dodgy or otherwise, to win. Maybe that's the type of game you want to play, but it's certainly not the type I want to.

Perhaps you should clarify, Whom is the leader of this clan? Whom are the clanners? Which realms were they in that did this? What positions of power do they hold in fontan currently to be able to influence a realm this way?

You've completely dropped your veil of non accusations of cheating now, which is definately a breach of the social contract.

A Vanimedle got punished for doing this IN PRIVATE, your doing it in public and constantly, but since you've already shown blatent disregard for the rules of this game you should definately state exactly what you say in detail, with evidence, naming names, dates and events
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Chaotrance13 on April 05, 2012, 05:33:20 PM
Perhaps you should clarify, Whom is the leader of this clan? Whom are the clanners? Which realms were they in that did this? What positions of power do they hold in fontan currently to be able to influence a realm this way?

You've completely dropped your veil of non accusations of cheating now, which is definately a breach of the social contract.

A Vanimedle got punished for doing this IN PRIVATE, your doing it in public and constantly, but since you've already shown blatent disregard for the rules of this game you should definately state exactly what you say in detail, with evidence, naming names, dates and events

Take it to the Magistrates/Titans. Accusing someone of a violation of the contract in public is also breaking it. Whether you have evidence or not.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: DamnTaffer on April 05, 2012, 05:33:50 PM
I don't mind fighting a war and losing even if it's something like two realms versus one. But what I do mind is when clans get involved and I have players who I consider my friends tell me "I'm leaving after this, this isn't why I play this game" when they find out that the Saxons are involved. But I suppose as long as you win, you'll take your sick, twisted and perverse pleasure in it OOC.

I hope your conscience sits well with this, because it is you and your friends who allowed the Saxons to take hold and put Fontan into overdrive. And it is because of you and your friends that means my friends will leave this game.

That is why I asked Tom via email to take a look. And while it's not classified as cheating, it leaves a foul taste in my mouth that isn't easily washed away. I left other games to get away from this hive-mind mentality. And now I find it's cropped up again, I'm also not sure whether I want to continue playing either.

I hope your conscience sits will with this because its you and your freinds whom allowed OOC abuse like this to take hold of battlemaster and turn the player base hostile. And it is because of you and people like you that my freinds have left the game.

My freinds didn't ask tom to look via email, because this happened in public in areas where moderators and possibly tom was present. And while THIS IS bullying it leaves a foul taste in my mouth that isn't easily washed away. I left other games to get away from abusive playerbases and this hive mind mentality. And now I find it cropping up again and i'm not sure if i want to continue playing either
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 05:34:15 PM
Your general has a character in Aurvandil, which is supposedly a saxon controlled realm.... Very suspicious...
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: DamnTaffer on April 05, 2012, 05:35:26 PM
Take it to the Magistrates/Titans. Accusing someone of a violation of the contract in public is also breaking it. Whether you have evidence or not.

I've no interest in taking it there, more in getting a full account of his accusations so we can continue are arguement on level ground.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Revan on April 05, 2012, 05:43:52 PM
I don't like this recurring witch hunt. It's a shame, a lot of people seem to have made their minds up a long time ago that 'Saxons' and/or clans generally are entirely a detrimental influence, probably cheaters, and we hear people crying wolf wherever they go. Well, it seems there is no cheating going on in the case of the Saxons. So if they're not cheating what's the point of this discussion. To just moan that OOC clans exist? Well sorry, but they do and will probably always exist. Clans inside the game have always been that bit better at communication/organisation. However, unless you decide to completely roll over, they're not going to steam roll all before them. They can be defeated.

Don't get me wrong, like many of the rest of you I can get uneasy around clan-gaming in BM. But my experience has been that generally, they can be defeated, their hegemony inside realms can be toppled - especially if they hold all power and influence to themselves. That's when good folk get resentful and start stabbing people in the back! What's more, clans have very often brought a lot of decent folk to the game in the first place. So y'know, for me, it isn't all one way. Clans can drive interest and engagement inside realms and make things more exciting.

But it annoys me that every time any of the players deemed 'Saxons' so much as look at someone funny in game, the issue immediately goes OOC and big threads start on the forum. Maybe it's a sign we're playing in a smaller pool these days. But it seems like the same players forever rubbing each other up the wrong way. Long ago you guys ceased looking at the actions of certain families in anything other than an OOC way and that's the worst thing of all for me. There doesn't seem to be a lot of respect from either side. Just bitterness and bad blood in every interaction.

I don't know what it would take to resolve things, but I would desperately like for you all to be reconciled to the point where you can fight your battles IC. Where the involvement of certain families didn't automatically invite hostility, scorn and a meta-flame war.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 05:48:20 PM
Perhaps you should clarify, Whom is the leader of this clan? Whom are the clanners? Which realms were they in that did this? What positions of power do they hold in fontan currently to be able to influence a realm this way?

You've completely dropped your veil of non accusations of cheating now, which is definately a breach of the social contract.

A Vanimedle got punished for doing this IN PRIVATE, your doing it in public and constantly, but since you've already shown blatent disregard for the rules of this game you should definately state exactly what you say in detail, with evidence, naming names, dates and events

Ah, I see you've taken "Misdirection 101: Don't address the points made by the other person, attack the person directly instead". I think the next class is "Sophistry 102: Ad hominem attacks", right?

I hope your conscience sits will with this because its you and your freinds whom allowed OOC abuse like this to take hold of battlemaster and turn the player base hostile. And it is because of you and people like you that my freinds have left the game.

My freinds didn't ask tom to look via email, because this happened in public in areas where moderators and possibly tom was present. And while THIS IS bullying it leaves a foul taste in my mouth that isn't easily washed away. I left other games to get away from abusive playerbases and this hive mind mentality. And now I find it cropping up again and i'm not sure if i want to continue playing either

If that was meant to be an intelligent reflection of Ravier's post it failed, pretty dismally.

Everyone knows who I'm talking about. He's had characters in Thulsoma, Caerwyn, Aurvandil, Arcachon and Fontan. Co-incidentally every realm where this [email protected]#$'s gone on. I'm sick of it, I really am. I'm just glad this crap got kicked off the island of my main characters. If I'd realised Melehan and the Arcachonians were actually doing FEI a gigantic favour getting rid of the clanners, I'd have seriously considered letting their realm live.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Anaris on April 05, 2012, 05:53:58 PM
I don't like this recurring witch hunt. It's a shame, a lot of people seem to have made their minds up a long time ago that 'Saxons' and/or clans generally are entirely a detrimental influence, probably cheaters, and we hear people crying wolf wherever they go. Well, it seems there is no cheating going on in the case of the Saxons. So if they're not cheating what's the point of this discussion. To just moan that OOC clans exist? Well sorry, but they do and will probably always exist. Clans inside the game have always been that bit better at communication/organisation. However, unless you decide to completely roll over, they're not going to steam roll all before them. They can be defeated.

They can, but it's very, very hard. If you took two identical realms, and filled one with your normal selection of BattleMaster players, and the other with a clan, the clan would win every single time. In fact, I would say that they would have something akin to a 1.5x to 2x advantage.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 05, 2012, 05:57:44 PM
Look like Revan intervention does not work successfully either :( Personally I feel what Revan stated is where we can find the middle ground, a common work frame.

Borrowing Zakilevo Thread Starter Gun in other post.

On one side, we have people who wish to see Saxon disappear for good, whatever Saxon is.

On the other side, we have people who do not see anything wrong as the 15 nobles mentioned, arrived after that 13K CS vs 19K CS battle.

In the middle ground, stand Tom, Developers and the rest. Hmm ::)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Kellaine on April 05, 2012, 06:11:06 PM
Fontan is attempting to retake their realm from those that have taken it over. But it is hard.  The Chancellor of Fontan is their leader and they have the position of General as well. we just took back the position of judge in our latest election.

They seem to be running Fontan like a dictatorship under the guise of a democracy. they do not use the assembly and no one votes for anything now.  the chancellor made it so regions are  not voted upon but appointed by him. 

It has gotten to the point that I am seriously considering leaving Fontan, Though I am not sure where to go. They are destroying the fun and democratic atmosphere of the realm. 
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Kellaine on April 05, 2012, 06:12:55 PM
Fontan is attempting to retake their realm from those that have taken it over. But it is hard.  The Chancellor of Fontan is their leader and they have the position of General as well. we just took back the position of judge in our latest election.

They seem to be running Fontan like a dictatorship under the guise of a democracy. they do not use the assembly and no one votes for anything now.  the chancellor made it so regions are  not voted upon but appointed by him. 

It has gotten to the point that I am seriously considering leaving Fontan, Though I am not sure where to go. They are destroying the fun and democratic atmosphere of the realm. 
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Tom on April 05, 2012, 06:29:27 PM
I don't mind fighting a war and losing even if it's something like two realms versus one. But what I do mind is when clans get involved and I have players who I consider my friends tell me "I'm leaving after this, this isn't why I play this game" when they find out that the Saxons are involved. But I suppose as long as you win, you'll take your sick, twisted and perverse pleasure in it OOC.

No, this is absolutely not ok.

Cheating or not, we do not want people driving other people from the game and we WILL act on that. If we get actual, substantiated information. Instead of whining and leaving, those friends should talk to the dev team.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Tom on April 05, 2012, 06:31:06 PM
My freinds didn't ask tom to look via email, because this happened in public in areas where moderators and possibly tom was present.

They should have. This is a huge game and I don't see a fraction of it, and even when I see things I might not react because I have 100 other things on my mind as well.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: feyeleanor on April 05, 2012, 06:33:10 PM
Regarding the view of the dev team - we are fairly certain there is no actual cheating going on.

However, we have noticed certain groups of players repeatedly showing the same approach to whatever realm they happen to be in at that time, and that has us worried because they are powergaming. Not speaking specifically about Fontan, we don't like it when an entire realm works like clockwork with almost no internal messages, no conflict, no nothing. Playing a piece in a machine is not what BattleMaster is about and more importantly, organizing the whole thing OOC whether amongst friends on the school yard or on IRC is borderline abusive because it excludes the other players who aren't members of your gang, clan or whatever you want to call it.

This is why we keep our eyes on certain realms.

I had to explain this to a couple of well-intentioned players in Minas Thalion who wanted to use IRC for planning as a way of team-building. It just isn't necessary for a realm to work that way and I think players who believe otherwise are missing much of the fun to be had from interacting via the lens of their characters.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: DamnTaffer on April 05, 2012, 06:34:16 PM
They should have. This is a huge game and I don't see a fraction of it, and even when I see things I might not react because I have 100 other things on my mind as well.

It doesn't matter now, they've left and are not coming back ever, though this is still happening to players...
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: feyeleanor on April 05, 2012, 06:49:08 PM
Ok, so before the Sirion interception, who do you think would have won the war? Westmoor was in control of both Commonyr and Oberndorf. Until Sirion stepped in and wanted peace for a future Nivemus to be created... So I'm sure King Jor had a reason on why to not except Fontan's rediculous "peace offers", when so clearly Fontan would be down to Krimml by now.

War is not just about armies and battles, it's about the diplomatic space within which those battles occur.

Sirion was obliged by treaty to defend Fontan's territorial integrity. Westmoor knew this as they had seen the full terms of the surrender and their efforts to keep Krimml put them on a collision course. They also knew that Sirion's key demand for peace was the right to refound a Rancaguan realm in Ashforth, so raiding that city during the conquest of Oberndorf and Commonyr further aggravated their position.

The government of Fontan used this to outmanoeuvre that of Westmoor, buying time to build up military strength, and once we'd cleared Westmoor's forces from the north we won all but one battle we engaged in on their home territory - despite still having a much smaller army at that time.

Not a single Sirion soldier was actually required to raise arms in defence of Fontanese soil so we will never know if Fontan's position was well-founded or not, but Westmoor blinked and that cost them a victory which realms have sought in the past. Since then Westmoor's government has wasted time that the nobles of Fontan have used productively to improve infrastructure, train troops, build gold reserves and generally prepare for war.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: The Arch Saxon on April 05, 2012, 06:53:40 PM
-snip-

Well, as you've discarded the illusion entirely I'll make the effort to speak up, instead of lurking and reading the forum threads.

I've never known anyone to be so caustic on an Out of Character level, never, and it's because of ridiculous things like this that I barely even play Battlemaster any more, Tom can quite easily confirm that I rarely log in, and that when I do, I rarely do anything at all, from messaging to basic actions. Since I've joined Fontan, the most I've done is send a long roleplay after my arrival, and other than that I've talked in the realm maybe twice, discounting asking for gold to recruit. I hold no power in Fontan, I don't even have any friends, let alone political allies, I certainly don't have a clan, flattering as it is to be accused of being behind every war, rebellion, secession and happening on just about every continent (I'm just waiting to be blamed for the Paisly blight as well) I never knew my Saxon thing would gain me such infamy, and fame, and likewise earn it for all the players who played with me or even interacted with me, but then I owe that to people like you who make it their business to assail others on an Out of Character level whenever you feel like it, to ruin the gaming experience for everyone involved whilst claiming it is other people ruining the experience.

So what do you accuse me of doing in Fontan?

Running a Clan? That has already been satisfactorily disproved, and I can tell you, if I had a Clan I wouldn't be using it in Fontan, and if I had a Clan, and had been outed for having one for the past two years, I wouldn't "Clan it up" in every realm I go to, as you accuse, the success of a Clan relies upon its subterfuge and covert operations after all.

As for ruining the game experience do elaborate, I am after all, fairly inactive and you know this well enough since it took you ages to get a reply from me on the Far East every time you sent me a letter. How am I ruining the gaming experience? I log on maybe once or twice a turn, do what needs to be done, make a rare comment.

Use Out of Character friends? Well no, all of my  Out of Character friends quit because of people like you, discounting the ruler of Fontan of course, but then we rarely interact I.C. and I didn't join Fontan because he ruled in Fontan, I joined Fontan because I served in Fontan during 2007 and again in 2008, Fontan is a realm I like, and I came to Fontan to bolster it during a realm, Fontan has always been a good realm for players to join, friendly players, good atmosphere, easy to get to grips, and rewarding to play in, which coincidently is why it has such player loyalty and why people always return during war time, realms like Fontan are the ones people want to preserve, and have the In Character reasoning to do so.

I also find it hilarious you accuse me of running  a clan in  Arcachon, when it was the Lefanis Clan of about five nobles, who fought five rebellions, banned all the nobles, some even for just going to a tournament, who took control of Arcachon in the most blatant display of cliquing I have ever seen (I speak IC'ly, not accusing them of an OOC Clan or clique)  By comparison, what did I do in Arcachon? I banned Melehan, and that set the most obvious example of a Clan in motion to remove me, and in the process, they isolated, offended and pissed off most of the realm. I even remarked in Arcachon, the biggest cause of my support was the fact they flew in the face of everyone, and clearly would do anything to get power, and to keep it at all costs, which has been quite succinctly proved. I also like how most of your grievance with Arcachon seems to be that you couldn't beat us, and that we had a strong army, when we could have made one much stronger. Really, you're just pissed off that you couldn't beat Arcachon, when you thought you should have been able to. Arcachon only ever raised an army out of its own gold, its own recruits, and even then our army was smaller than our actual capability due to the fact we didn't get enough drafts. Arcachon never had a ridiculously powerful army, and I was never responsible for it either, though I suppose it is a compliment that apparently I am the best military commander around apparently, I can turn backwater realms into superpowers, though maybe I should have done that to save Thulsoma or Averoth? Arcachon also never had 100% movement rates, which is a fallacy you keep touting as proof, if we had such great movement rates, would we have lost such massive battles in places like Unotosa, Tuhpos and Nbasah which were caused due to such poor movement rates?

Arcachon never had an overly powerful army, we just had a good one, we never had 100% movement rates, we were just sensible and used a lot of forethought when moving the army. I never had a Clan, though my opponents clearly did, I never used Out of Character friends, as just about all of them bar maybe one, left the game months prior to this. Did I ever abuse the game mechanics in Arcachon? No. Did I ever abuse the Out of Character in Arcachon? No, everything was done in character.

Velax, you can't tell the difference between a Saxon and an Elf, and you can't even separate the In Character from the Out of Character, and you can't tell what is acceptable to say, from what isn't, the forum isn't hear for you to insult players and accuse them of cheating, and you make that clear when you lambaste, insult and openly attack other players, some for being Saxons when they aren't even Saxons, and have never had any substantial connection to Saxons. At best, this is a clear Out of character prejudice by one particularly spiteful and  embittered player. Do you want to know who a Saxon is? Maybe half a dozen players at best, the rest in Thulsoma were converts from other realms who were never Saxons, never knew about the Saxons, and didn't join because of it, and never assumed the identity of Saxons. The Knights of Holy Iron Chains was a clear collective of nobles from all over the continent joined together by mutual ideology, goals and religion, the Saxons, ironically, were only ever a group of players joined together by In character roleplay and friendship or In  Character Reason never anything Out of Character, and this is proven quite strongly by the fact we had nobles try to assassinate each other, or kill each other in duels, and that we had to execute our own nobles and ban others to just keep the peace, Feylonis can attest to this, a player you rather unfairly attacked when she was at best, inactive in Thulsoma, and was an Astroist priest turned Hredmonath priest. She was never a Saxon, and she was never responsible for anything that happened, and she quite obviously isn't involved in a Clan and she doesn't deserve to be treated like she was, and especially not like this. Don't accuse me of ruining the game experience, people in glass houses shouldn't throw the first stone, you've successfully managed to turn me away from a game I've played for nearly a decade, you've become the school yard bully, every time I go to do anything, or go to any new realm, or try to start new things, I know you'll be there, ready to fling the Out of Character accusations, ruining the entire in game experience, letting your Out of Character prejudice and bias turn you against anything I do In Character before I even have the chance, and this goes for other players as well on both sides. Battlemaster has become the equivalent of school - a daily chore I wish I didn't have to do, where any enjoyment I take out of it is ruined by other people just out to spoil it for the rest of us. If you don't want the gaming experience to be ruined, by all means delete your account and spare everyone this constant Out of Character war that you have even admitted you wage against certain players for In character actions.  Hell, if I ran a Clan, or Powergamed, I would have given up a long time ago, it just isn't worth the trouble and it removes all the parts of the game I love, and replaces it with the bits I despise, not that whether or not I am actually guilty will reflect on how much grief I get simply for having existed in the game.

For the sake of clarity, the Saxons don't run Fontan, the Saxons aren't even in Fontan, not a single Saxon character, the Saxons also don't run Aurvandil, Aurvandil has one master and he makes that damn clear and he's a good ruler at that, he rules with the "Orveandeaux" the original Aurvandilan's, no In Character ethnic group is even allowed representation, or religious temples, Aurvandil enforces complete monoculture on every letter and it does not tolerate any noble who would like it otherwise. The Saxons also do not run Barca, or Aslyon, or D'Hara for that matter. Likewise, the Saxons never ran Caerwyn, or Averoth, or Arcachon, or Thalmarkin, and hell, why not throw Nothoi into that bunch? I was Polemarchos there after a while, and by what you say, I clearly Clan and powergame in ever realm I go into. The Saxons are a dead people, deal with it, I did for a time play an epic resurgence in Dwilight, I even had a lot of roleplay and religious back story prepared (which the wiki indicates and hints to) but it just isn't worth it, I've spent the past year trying to distance myself from the Saxons, and even then, I'm still dealing with the backlash of a few nescient and prejudiced players who don't have the slightest clue of what they are on about, or who they accuse. The Saxons are gone, the In character legacy has been tarnished beyond repair by Out of Character aspersions, and because of it many genuinely innocent players who had the misfortune to join Thulsoma, or even Averoth, or Aurvandil now carry a stigma forced on them unfairly, and this is now reaching into the hundreds of players you are branding with the same brush.

Get your [email protected]#$ together Velax, learn to separate the In Character from the Out of Character, learn what a Saxon is, and next time you find yourself losing a war due to sheer incompetence, don't cast accusations of OOC abuses.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: feyeleanor on April 05, 2012, 07:02:40 PM
Fontan is attempting to retake their realm from those that have taken it over. But it is hard.  The Chancellor of Fontan is their leader and they have the position of General as well. we just took back the position of judge in our latest election.

I don't think it's fair to characterise the election that way. Lord Justin has been in Fontan for years, as has Chancellor Aulus. It's true Minister Lyzekiel is rubbing a number of established characters up the wrong way, and I suspect there'll be trouble from that, but he's only just won his second term as a wartime General and his majority was nothing out of the ordinary.

Quote
They seem to be running Fontan like a dictatorship under the guise of a democracy. they do not use the assembly and no one votes for anything now.  the chancellor made it so regions are  not voted upon but appointed by him. 

This is nothing compared to Tal's reign. He wanted to declare himself king :)

I'm no fan of cliquish players, and my old character Moira spent much of her career arguing with the then government of Fontan IC over pretty much these same issues. Sometimes she was successful, sometimes less so.

Quote
It has gotten to the point that I am seriously considering leaving Fontan, Though I am not sure where to go. They are destroying the fun and democratic atmosphere of the realm.

I hope you decide not to leave as Fontan can only remain a democracy whilst there are players who want that to happen.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 07:07:25 PM
Blah, blah, blah. If you want the reason why people who are perhaps innocent of all this crap get drawn in, you need only look in the mirror. The second you and your clan decided to use the family gold exploit, you ensured this was going follow you wherever you went. The Saxons escaped punishment only because the devs never thought the mechanic would be so blatantly abused. Did you really think anyone even vaguely involved in that would ever be trusted again? Really? As for the rest of it, feel free to rant away. You have your slant on things, I have mine. And by the posts here, I'm certainly not the only one who thinks the way I do.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: The Arch Saxon on April 05, 2012, 07:12:29 PM
Blah, blah, blah. If you want the reason why people who are perhaps innocent of all this crap get drawn in, you need only look in the mirror. The second you and your clan decided to use the family gold exploit, you ensured this was going follow you wherever you went. The Saxons escaped punishment only because the devs never thought the mechanic would be so blatantly abused. Did you really think anyone even vaguely involved in that would ever be trusted again? Really? As for the rest of it, feel free to rant away. You have your slant on things, I have mine. And by the posts here, I'm certainly not the only one who thinks the way I do.

Ah the true master of misdirection, something you had the nerve to accuse another poster of.

Well, as I thought, when it comes to actually defending what you say, you don't have the means, you don't have the balls and you're just wasting everyone's time.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 07:17:15 PM
I wasn't aware I had to defend myself. I have stated my opinion. Repeatedly. I don't feel the need to do so again. Shouldn't you get back to getting whatever realm you're a part of destroyed? You seem pretty good at that, despite the clan.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: The Arch Saxon on April 05, 2012, 07:29:28 PM
I wasn't aware I had to defend myself. I have stated my opinion. Repeatedly. I don't feel the need to do so again. Shouldn't you get back to getting whatever realm you're a part of destroyed? You seem pretty good at that, despite the clan.

I never played Battlemaster to have to defend my actions on an Out of Character level, but it seems I do, and yet you won't even hold yourself to the same standard you hold others?

You do have to defend yourself, if you are going to go around insulting, attacking and accusing other players you should have the basic decency to stand by what you said, to take responsibility for your actions and not employ the childish response to the effect of "I don't have to take this!" -storms of while sending another O.O.C. Accusations and petty remarks. If you don't want to be held accountable for what you say and do, don't do it, if you don't want a player to defend himself from your attacks, don't attack him, well you were having a lot of fun attacking me all over the forum and game when I didn't stand up for myself weren't you?

I only came on the forum to finally defend myself, something I have pointedly refused to do for over a year, I shouldn't have to, but I do. Likewise I expected you to be worth the effort, but you weren't. You walk around attacking people, then crying when they challenge you on it. Really, you are the ultimate definition of WAINGAFAT, you can have your petty remarks, and you can have the last word if you want, but everyone else here has seen the Out of Character tirade you went on against me and other players, and how when challenged on, when asked to defend it and reason it, and to discuss it, you whined and moaned and refused to, so my post has achieved what I came here to achieve - it shows that the people who accuse me of these things, don't have a leg to stand on, they don't have proof, they don't even have the means to argue >for< it, they can only make silly little remarks that many players can already see are not worth the time of actual, decent players.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Kellaine on April 05, 2012, 07:44:55 PM
Thank you for your input.

But I am not the only one that sees their actions as clanish to the point of powergaming. Tom sees it too and simply has not done anything as he needs proof of it.

And toms message to the realm would not have happened on the word of only one player.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Velax on April 05, 2012, 07:48:48 PM
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Draco Tanos on April 05, 2012, 08:57:42 PM
Since then Fontan has allowed Westmoor more than enough opportunities to sign the peace treaty agreed subsequent to the ceasefire but King Jor seemed determined to keep removing equitable terms and replacing them with terms wholly advantageous to Westmoor, which was not a fair reflection of the military situation at the time of the ceasefire.

King Jor must think that starting a war now and displaying Westmoor's usual military competence will drag Perdan and Caligus in, allowing him to gain Fontan's lands as a gift from them. There's no other reasonable justification for picking a war which his realm is very likely to lose.
You know, Fontan likes saying there was a peace treaty an awful lot when there was none presented by them.  I think they must have phantom scribes or something.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Revan on April 05, 2012, 10:01:35 PM
The second you and your clan decided to use the family gold exploit, you ensured this was going follow you wherever you went. ... Did you really think anyone even vaguely involved in that would ever be trusted again? Really?

So because they used an exploit a year or so ago they are to be harangued and pilloried until they all leave the game? Fair play, that's not a glorious moment in their past. But there are players who have been done for multi-cheating and returned to be decent players. There are other people who have benefited from exploits and yet they're not being hounded simply for daring to still play. There doesn't appear to be any evidence at all the people you're talking about have returned to ill ways, so how long do you hold this against them?

Quote from: Velax
That last one doesn't "prove" anything. I just found it amusing.

Why even bother digging that up? Very petty.

This doesn't prove anything either, but I played in Bara'Khur when Vanimedle and a few of his OOC friends joined the realm. That they were a clique became known to Bara'Khur quite early on, but we got on with it and there was always a good amount of fun to be had in the endless internal politicking in the realm. When a Vanimedle eventually got into power, it was only after we of the old guard splintered and basically turned on each other. I endorsed a Vanimedle at that point and got into religion, though Bara'Khur was already on a path to fracture.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I actually had a good time when playing alongside a Vanimedle. Even if, occasionally, the existence of a clique did sometimes cause tensions. Maybe I'd have a different opinion if they'd actually won an attempted rebellion when I was briefly in power, but that's where game mechanics making rebellions one player, one character affairs come in. That and my mad rebellion skillz ;-)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Geronus on April 05, 2012, 10:38:28 PM
Well the only way to find it out is to join them and see how they do it. Too bad I made a character in Perdan .

I don't think it is too hard to reach such CS. CS diminishes as you hire more men but rises quickly when you have a low number of men which means you just need to make everyone hire even number of men to reach the maximum efficiency. Have you guys seen the battle report between Westmoor and Fontan? or other Saxon battle reports? Hits from Westmoor were being dispersed over 25-30 people (some hits weren't enough to wound).

Having 2 people with 1000 CS isn't as good as having 5 people with 200 CS each.

We had the same problem fighting Averoth, which was made up of basically the same people.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Geronus on April 05, 2012, 10:41:04 PM
Well there isn't much proof. All we know is where ever they "go" there is a sudden rise in noble count and military strength. Also, look at Fontans size do you really think they can pull of a 16000 CS army. Also, almost 100% movement on almost 100% of the time is something to be wary about as well, eh?

Averoth was made up of 5 of the poorest, crappiest regions ever, mostly sub 150g income. And they managed to field 14k CS at their height, with 40 some-odd nobles. Do not doubt what these people can accomplish.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 05, 2012, 10:57:59 PM
I think it took around 5 realms to take Averoth down in there capital... A stronghold region.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Lorgan on April 05, 2012, 11:05:08 PM
Just imagine them like the Mongol hordes. War is their life.

The more I read here and elsewhere the less convinced I am they are actually ruining the game for people. Except maybe those that used to be in power in Fontan.

Oh and I bet medieval nobles weren't too happy about the Mongols arriving at their borders either.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Draco Tanos on April 05, 2012, 11:23:52 PM
Mongols didn't integrate into realms and pretend to be them so they could seize power.

And no, we've actually had long standing EC players, like Corwin, say they're considering at least leaving the island outright so long as the "Saxons" are there because he had to put up with them elsewhere as well.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Geronus on April 05, 2012, 11:27:47 PM
I think it took around 5 realms to take Averoth down in there capital... A stronghold region.

That's how many were involved, but the battles were not close. We completely crushed them. We might easily have done it with less. Of course we'd learned hard lessons fighting Thulsoma, so we applied maximum force for no other reason than that we were sick and tired of dealing with these characters and we could.

In response to the overall thread it is unfortunate that this particular group of players gets pilloried regularly, but speaking as someone who dealt with them for a long time, they are very frustrating to interact with. They're highly unpleasant IC, at least to those they have identified as enemies. They are also incredibly efficient in comparison to other realms, so much so that they almost always provoke suspicion and disbelief from their opponents. When what you're seeing goes drastically against the norm that you've observed everywhere else for years, one almost can't help but wonder if cheating or clanning is involved. I know I certainly suspected as much when I first encountered them, although it turns out in my case that I was justified once the family gold loophole exploit was revealed.

In response to Arch Saxon, it's not that those who were in Thulsoma are now permanently tarred so much as it is that the same pattern observed there has continued to repeat itself over and over again in realms populated by a particular group of families. It is this group that has come to be known by the OOC moniker of 'Saxons' since Thulsoma is where the pattern began, or at least where it became (in)famous.

I know the pattern well by now. It can almost always be traced to a particular group of players. I don't think they necessarily cheat either, but they almost certainly power game. There's no other word for how they're able to be so efficient in comparison to other realms. In response to Lorgan, I will say that they make very challenging enemies from the mechanical point of view, and they really make you hate them IC, but no thank you. I found dealing with them to be a very unpleasant and stressful experience as a player, and I can tell you that I'd be more than a little bitter if they'd succeeded in destroying what my character built due to the methods that they use. No one likes playing against a poor sport, which they are in both IC and OOC senses in my opinion.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Tom on April 05, 2012, 11:31:20 PM
What irks me is that it appears to be their goal in the game to frustrate others. And that I can not abide.

If they want a challenge and demonstrate how efficient they are, why not go to BT? I'm sure many realms there would've welcomed them with open arms.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Geronus on April 06, 2012, 12:02:25 AM
 :D

Indeed. If there was ever a place where ridiculous, limit-breaking military and economic efficiency were needed, it would be BT, right now.

I actively avoid them. If I see certain family names someplace, I stay away. I would be perfectly happy to never have to deal with them again.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Lorgan on April 06, 2012, 12:11:31 AM
If they want a challenge and demonstrate how efficient they are, why not go to BT? I'm sure many realms there would've welcomed them with open arms.

Maybe don't destroy it then? ;)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Chaotrance13 on April 06, 2012, 01:12:29 AM
Maybe don't destroy it then? ;)

I'm sure if they were there, destruction would likely not be on the cards. You could always invite them over to Thalmarkin if you want? ;)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Geronus on April 06, 2012, 03:54:57 AM
I'm sure if they were there, destruction would likely not be on the cards. You could always invite them over to Thalmarkin if you want? ;)

Thalmarkin already has a pretty efficient and ruthless war machine. They should all go join Nothoi. If it survives.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 06, 2012, 04:36:31 AM
I had to explain this to a couple of well-intentioned players in Minas Thalion who wanted to use IRC for planning as a way of team-building. It just isn't necessary for a realm to work that way and I think players who believe otherwise are missing much of the fun to be had from interacting via the lens of their characters.
This happened on Colonies Island.

You will be much surprised that my character Ash, and other players of Spearhead, Pyran did know about this MT IRC Utopia clannie planning sort of stuff. We were invited to IRC and found out they originated from Utopia game. When their work in Oritolon(the previous realm they joined before they came to Minas Thalion) threaten to ruin everyone game especially those who not hook up with them in IRC, many of us who were invited to IRC quitted. That is when Khain and his Utopia clannies put up a rebellion, protested all Oritolon government members from their posts, their rogue army embarrassing defeated all our Oritolon army many times at our border regions. At that time, all Alowca duchy regions are rogue due to Hvrek Pysche and his multi characters rebellions crusades. So Khain and his ilk able to strike us, while basing themselves in Alowca city. As they are all banned, they cannot recruit anymore men. So we able to put a stop to that, or is it they running off to MT who welcome them with open arms.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 06, 2012, 04:39:19 AM
Ok, so before the Sirion interception, who do you think would have won the war? Westmoor was in control of both Commonyr and Oberndorf. Until Sirion stepped in and wanted peace for a future Nivemus to be created... So I'm sure King Jor had a reason on why to not except Fontan's rediculous "peace offers", when so clearly Fontan would be down to Krimml by now.
Hmm, I think this statement is flawed. Do you know we had moved our capital from Krimml city to Ashforth city for sometime, at that point. And we recruit from the many good Recruitment Centers(RC), then sent our armies to counter attack Westmoor lands. Anyway that is your perspective speaking, here's my perspective.

We still have Ashforth city, I hope you do not forget that Nivemus not created at that time 8)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Ketchum on April 06, 2012, 04:45:02 AM
I don't think it's fair to characterise the election that way. Lord Justin has been in Fontan for years, as has Chancellor Aulus. It's true Minister Lyzekiel is rubbing a number of established characters up the wrong way, and I suspect there'll be trouble from that, but he's only just won his second term as a wartime General and his majority was nothing out of the ordinary.
Hey hey. My character Brock does not want Lyzekiel due to his own personal reason. Oh, well. Have to be patient for 1 more month until next election.

Fontan is attempting to retake their realm from those that have taken it over. But it is hard.  The Chancellor of Fontan is their leader and they have the position of General as well. we just took back the position of judge in our latest election.

They seem to be running Fontan like a dictatorship under the guise of a democracy. they do not use the assembly and no one votes for anything now.  the chancellor made it so regions are  not voted upon but appointed by him. 

It has gotten to the point that I am seriously considering leaving Fontan, Though I am not sure where to go. They are destroying the fun and democratic atmosphere of the realm.
If this is true, then they not interested in Banker at all. My character Brock must be super uber popular or did he bribe all his Fontan realmmates during Banker election runup? Either way, it seems nobody want contest against Brock. Until our latest election that concluded recently.

Hey, nobody in Fontan even remember anymore how Brock your current beloved Fontan Banker, who in his past as Adventurer had broken many of his Fontanese realmmates Unique Items? What is going on with all your memory? I created Brock in order to play him against his sister May Ketchum from Sirion before May got deported.

It seems we all are a forgiving lot  ;) Heh, if I bring this up IC, I am sure player of Prandur going ban Brock as soon as he elected as Judge. Or fine Brock for that matter. After all, there are some Fontan realmmates questioning Brock nobility as he rise up from lowly peasant life :P
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Bedwyr on April 06, 2012, 06:31:14 AM
What irks me is that it appears to be their goal in the game to frustrate others. And that I can not abide.

If they want a challenge and demonstrate how efficient they are, why not go to BT? I'm sure many realms there would've welcomed them with open arms.

I actually tried to set that up.  I particularly wanted to see what would happen if they got put in charge of the BT war effort with the full backing of a continent and a half.  Still would, at that.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Draekarne on April 06, 2012, 08:15:45 AM
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Draco Tanos on April 06, 2012, 09:35:32 AM
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Draco Tanos on April 06, 2012, 10:22:32 AM
Oh, forgot I appointed Mathros as Duke of... Kazakh?  I forget the old SoA capital's name.  Then again, that was more due to his conversion to the Church from the Flow, his competence and the general respect many feel towards him, and the fact that, well, Jor trusts him.  Even if he didn't vote for Jor.

/me eyes Mathros!

(would have edited it in, but it keeps locking up when I do!)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Turner on April 06, 2012, 11:50:23 AM
Quote
Couple that with a ruling government and council of lords mostly comprised of players from Old Grehk with similar positions shared between them and then and then alone do you see a clan.

Excuse me, my characters started off in Westmoor first before immigrating to Beluaterra. There are only a couple of players in Westmoor that also have characters in Old Grehk as well. Most of those serving in the Council of Lords do not have characters in Old Grehk. Why don't you get your facts straight first before you go around making baseless accusations, especially when they are not even true.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Azul on April 06, 2012, 03:27:02 PM
Well thanks to you Tanos I've had to face a storm in Nivemus. You spreading lies all over the ruler's channel OOC to try to pettily gain as much support as you can for Westmoor. You basically said everyone with any association to a list of realms are saxons. Averoth, Thulsoma, now anyone who has ever had any of those names on their family pages to you are some massive clique. Point out what you like about how you're not some powermongerer in Westmoor but even in Nivemus we're suspicious of your Old Grehk linkage. Hey, if circumstantial realm association is enough for you to make accusations its enough for us, right? I mean that would be fair. Oh no wait, you have a cute phrase you can tag on to anything. "The Saxons", and with that little signature everyone jumps. Well honestly I'm sick of it, as a player, having had a character in Averoth for barely two months who then got killed off. I joined because of an OOC discussion in Fontan how there was a massive war going down with two horribly mismatched realms and I took the underdog, like any decent player should if they're interested in game balance and "the experience". Ha-de-ha. Three or four other Fontanese did too, since it seemed a lot more fun than anything else going on. Oh the audacity for wanting to do what you want with your own characters. Now you can pull that "But you were in ..." line every time you want to.

You are exactly the worst kind of player. You've made a point of using OOC to try to win through your IC objectives.

One thing you and everyone else needs to get their head around is that Averothians are certainly not saxons. The Saxons joined Averoth. There are no "Saxon Realms" that I've ever been in. That is a distinction you should do your hardest to realise. But no, you look down a family career page and just note realm names. Well guess what, thats all anyone has done with Westmoor and Old Grehk and that looks sweetily like equally conclusive evidence. The difference being your little gang are still together and still trading titles.

Like the gang in Arcachon and subsequently Madina, the same player spouting off saxon crap to make up for his own failings. I tell you what the TO of Arcachon by the Melehan Clique was the best done thing I've ever seen. Expendable characters, a load of private communication, new nobles taking up sides, bans issued to new accounts and players who attended a tournament knowing nothing could be done to reverse it. Even the OOC appeals to that were ignored. Better yet the stooge-player who did all the banning heroically suicides his character at the end to clean up the whole shop and everyone gave him a pat on the back for good roleplay. Oddly self-sacrificing that Ironhorse family.

And as for you katyanna, one of the main people in the family clan who used to run Fontan and is now upset they lost it, you need to get your facts straight. Ignore my IG attempts to get you to justify yourself but I like loads of players in Fontan have got sick to the back teeth of your family trying to win Fontan. So you targetted Justin in these elections to see him removed from the Judgeship? While at the same time you stand yours, the Draguls and the Hyde's chaarcters for every single position they can get? Even Prandur is now confused since he doesn't know if people think he is in a clan or he's in your anti-clan, which is more like The Fontan Clan out of anyone. Your Royal Family Of Fontan has fallen, don't try to cheat your way back. You've made half a dozen players leave Fontan in the time I've been there, well it won't work with me.

Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: T Strike on April 06, 2012, 03:28:45 PM
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Allomere on April 06, 2012, 04:20:33 PM
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Azul on April 06, 2012, 04:35:35 PM
http://memegenerator.net/instance/17941408 (http://memegenerator.net/instance/17941408)
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Tom on April 06, 2012, 04:37:17 PM
I have issued moderator warnings to everyone I noticed as overly aggressive, insulting or otherwise contributing to the flamefest.

Is this how you'd talk to your friends over a boardgame?

Get a grip, people.

Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Anaris on April 06, 2012, 04:38:00 PM
And so, from this thread, we can learn one thing definitively:

Whether or not there is a clan that has taken over Fontan, the fact that there was a clan in Thulsoma, that took over Averoth, that shares some players with Fontan (and these facts are not, I believe, in dispute) has led to deep OOC bitterness and anger on all sides.

This, I think, is the worst danger of clans. The witch hunts. The recriminations. The belief, even years later, that your realm was destroyed unfairly by a clan you never had a chance against.

This is the sort of thing that can ruin a game's community. And this is why I appeal to those who did participate in the Saxon realms: Please, do not go around to any other realms en masse and take them over. You can have fun in this game without that. In the long run, you can probably have more fun.

And while being able to be certain of winning all the time may be fun for you, it destroys fun for other people, far beyond the direct effects of defeating them in wars and destroying their realms.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Chaotrance13 on April 06, 2012, 04:55:44 PM
And so, from this thread, we can learn one thing definitively:

Whether or not there is a clan that has taken over Fontan, the fact that there was a clan in Thulsoma, that took over Averoth, that shares some players with Fontan (and these facts are not, I believe, in dispute) has led to deep OOC bitterness and anger on all sides.

This, I think, is the worst danger of clans. The witch hunts. The recriminations. The belief, even years later, that your realm was destroyed unfairly by a clan you never had a chance against.

This is the sort of thing that can ruin a game's community. And this is why I appeal to those who did participate in the Saxon realms: Please, do not go around to any other realms en masse and take them over. You can have fun in this game without that. In the long run, you can probably have more fun.

And while being able to be certain of winning all the time may be fun for you, it destroys fun for other people, far beyond the direct effects of defeating them in wars and destroying their realms.

And this is what happens when you challenge their behaviour - they come out and they start directly insulting players with images, and denying it all ever happened. What next? They'll start putting out explicit pictures involving the names of characters or players? I'll get harassment for speaking to Tom in the first place?
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Indirik on April 06, 2012, 04:59:26 PM
We're done with this thread. Next time, let's try not to devolve into personal attacks. And this goes to *both* sides.
Title: Re: Fontan's Surprising Strength
Post by: Tom on April 07, 2012, 11:52:40 AM
A final word from me (cool, I can post to locked topics, never realized that before :-) ):


I do believe in light of this we actually do need an anti-clan policy. We've made our bad experiences, no need to repeat them. I'm not yet sure about the details, but the goal needs to be that no realm is ever controlled by any group of OOC friends, no matter if they call themselves clan, not-clan, classmates, family or whatever.

The best way to ensure that for most cases would be to get more players into the game so realms get larger again. But that's not something that is going to happen within the next few weeks.

Anyone who feels strongly about the issue could take a few hours to think about the topic and then open a topic in Development with a proposal.