| Summary: | Clan activity detrimental to the game |
| Violation: | We expect you to play the game as you would play a board game with good friends, and to value fair play above any victory or power. |
| World: | East Island and Dwilight |
| Complainer: | Tom |
| About: | multiple people, see below |
§2 Fair Play You can not win BattleMaster. Therefore, playing together is more important to us than playing against each other. We expect you to play the game as you would play a board game with good friends, and to value fair play above any victory or power.
I too do not see what the issue is. It seems to me that Aurvandil has been deemed a clan because it is a fairly new realm to Dwilight and was declared an enemy of Madina, they went to war and Madina is losing badly.
Because it may be relevant, this thread discusses Aurvandil's unusually efficient economy, with input from players in Aurvandil:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1938.0.html
This thread discusses recent happenings in Fontan, though beware, there is a significant amount of flaming, particularly at the end:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2228.0.html
What unusually efficient economy?
We just don't waste our gold, and we hand out what gold we have, it is that simple. That, and we maximise estate efficiency in every region we have , and supplement anyone who doesn't have enough gold, like Silent Wrath said, with treasury from the crown. I've already explained the Aurvandilan economic principle in full to Tom and he didn't seem to see anything wrong with it, it's genuinely a case of not wasting money, having the occasional investment and being generous with your treasury. Every realm can do it, it's not rocket science, it just takes a bit more time and micromanagement.
No. It was deemed that there is a clan in Aurvandil because there was a large influx of players from Averoth and Thulsoma, and after that happened, their military and economic performance changed from pretty average to hyper-efficient.
I didn't mean to imply that there was cheating. It's simply a fact that if you look at Aurvandil's performance, it's a major outlier. I'm sure everything is handled through existing game mechanics, however your average realm (even your above-average realm) would be very hard pressed to reach the kind of numbers and averages observed in Aurvandil. Incidentally, that is why this group of players keeps getting singled out. From Thulsoma through Averoth to Aurvandil and Fontan, the realms that are populated by these families enjoy eyebrow-raising levels of coordination and economic efficiency that are simply beyond the grasp of most realms in the game, if not all of them. This is why suspicion and accusations tend to follow them wherever they go. There is all sorts of evidence that the realm, as a whole, is min-maxing, which is really just another word for power gaming even if it's all comfortably within the designed mechanics of the game.
My thoughts on clans were well established in one of those threads linked earlier. I would like to challenge, however, all these players coming out of the woodwork to say how awesome Fontan and Aurvandil are, how there's no clan, how people are only complaining because they're losing, blah, blah, predictable blah, to link to their family pages in their profile. So we can get an idea of just how "objective" some of this support is.As you can see, I am no Aurvandil, or those clannie you accuse me of.
As you can see, I am no Aurvandil, or those clannie you accuse me of.
I have shown mine 8)
http://www.battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=27742 (http://www.battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=27742)
It seems from the different posts that are on this thread that a few people have different ideas as to what "clanning" is, could someone perhaps a magistrate or Tom or someone define Clan so we are all clear on that.
the fact that she won is not my complaint, it how it was done.
Is that the sort of thing that the magistrates are looking for?
So then what you are looking for is examples of how it is effecting the game as a whole. more specifically how it is effecting Fontan and its politics and game play?
I would like to note that the Magistrates are more-or-less bound to treat any claims that the economy of Aurvandil is naturally managed as false,
Specifically not the economy as in how much the regions make, but the tax collection and distribution. As someone mentioned, gold gets sent to people who need it. In many cases, it gets send without a request for gold. So how do the people who distribute it around know who needs how much? We haven't found an answer to that question.
Specifically not the economy as in how much the regions make, but the tax collection and distribution. As someone mentioned, gold gets sent to people who need it. In many cases, it gets send without a request for gold. So how do the people who distribute it around know who needs how much? We haven't found an answer to that question.Letter from Yvonne Peugeot (16 days, 12 hours ago)
Specifically not the economy as in how much the regions make, but the tax collection and distribution. As someone mentioned, gold gets sent to people who need it. In many cases, it gets send without a request for gold. So how do the people who distribute it around know who needs how much? We haven't found an answer to that question.Tom, thank you for your question. This question has been a troubling one. As my Banker character can attest to, it is sometime hard to know who really need the gold and how much. My character Brock tries to err on side of caution, by asking about their men pay, check their characters command how many men, and the rest depend on good will, trust between characters.
Basically, yes. There is no debate about economic or military efficiency, as Tom has stated. Those issues are "givens" for this case. The debate is if clans are inhibiting gameplay.
Regarding the cases you mentioned, I have a question: so a person was elected without debate over a person who put in some public/private effort. Can you think of no other reason that person was favored? Any differences in military service, time in realm, or whatever? I'm not saying I disbelieve you or not; just trying to get clarity on what you are stating.
Military service could be an issue as Sasha has spent the majority of her time as a courtier and a region Lord. and as best I can tell Sangah has been active in the military though has been unrearkable and silent since she arrived in Fontan. she is not new to fontan and could have won the election on her own merits. so that may not have been the best example after reviewing her time in realm.
Regarding the general's use of the military council and orders; are you saying that some nobles are receiving orders that other nobles (presumably in the same armies?) are not? And, furthermore, how are you claiming those orders are passed? Are they going IC, OOC, or what?
It is not known if they received seperate orders via in game or ooc. All that is known is they do not follow the orders of the army they are in and the order given to the armies have never mentioned that some will have special orders. so I am unable to determine how they received orders or if they did at all.
Because conflicts between generals, marshals, sponsors, and judges are normal and interesting. What you need to demonstrate is that this isn't an RP conflict between IG political powers, but is primarily a conflict stemming from an OOC clan attempting to force other players to play its way, or to exclude other players from its turf, or some similar harm.
I agree that simple conflicts are interesting to watch play out. But to circumvent the chain of command over all is wrong. There is a reason that we have Marshals and their authority is effectively gone. Fontan is losing a sense of itself under these condition.
In this case, it's not that Fontan is winning or losing or whatever. It's how it's done that worries me. More importantly, it is the how that is the subject of this case, nothing else.
It seems to me that the argument only became prevalent after Aurvandil began to win its war. As you have stated it matters not that we are winning or losing the war. It matters how we got to that state. Aurvandil got to that state by being proactive, giving orders 2 or 3 turns in advance to ensure that everyone was where they were supposed to be when they needed to be there. As it has been previously said, the few times we did not do that we lost the conflicts we were engaged in.
It matters not that we managed to raise a rather large mobile CS force quickly but how we did that. I for one am unsure of how exactly we did that. The orders were given to recruit as much as possible and if you needed gold to maintain a unit over 40 men or so you should ask for it as there are plenty of players willing to help if you ask for it.
That seems to be a big point in Battlemaster to me, If you need help with something ask and 99.9% of the time someone has the answer and the other 0.1% of the time someone knows where to get the answer and can point you in the right direction. You as a player need only take the initiative and ask for the help you require. I have done this on several occasions in different realms on different continents requesting help on a whole range of topics. I was never chastised for asking for help but rather applauded in some cases for admitting "I do not know how to do xyz. Could someone please help me to do so." etc etc.
I doubt anyone in Aurvandil is against sharing How they went about contributing to the realm. That is after all what this thread is about
What about in Fontan where orders are not given until the last minute to either the Mashals or the realm.
I cannot speak for Fontan, as I do not have a character in Fontan.
I would like to challenge, however, all these players coming out of the woodwork to say how awesome Fontan and Aurvandil are, how there's no clan, how people are only complaining because they're losing [...] to link to their family pages in their profile. So we can get an idea of just how "objective" some of this support is.I would like to see this or at least identify your character that we might know where you're coming from (including any potential bias).
Investigations in Aurvandil and, to a lesser extend in Fontan, revealed that the military as well as the economy of those realms is working like clockwork with almost no in-game communication.This is the crux - an investigation having been made. A lack of IG communication points to clan activity. Unless, there is another explanation? A smattering of IG msgs to other players is not proof that there isn't nor does a slow trickling in of characters from elsewhere.
In the interest of full disclosure, we also found that the alleged clan is not acting aggressively exclusive. We have seen characters join the realm and be welcome. However, to the best of our knowledge, they are not integrated into the alledged clan and receive none of the suspected OOG communications.
It seems to me that the argument only became prevalent after Aurvandil began to win its war.This is not strictly correct. These trends in behavior have been tracked over the past few years. This isn't just the current Aurvandil/Fontan situation. It goes back to Averoth and Thulsoma before that. From what I can see, there is a clear trend of behavior. A small/poor/weak realm has, either quickly or over the period of a few months, a large infusion of players. For the most part these players are quiet, do what they are told to do. Dissenters are ridiculed. (When someone questions why a lord was banned without any debate or reason, they are told "Be quiet. If he was banned, he deserved it.") People from outside the group are generally not given positions of power. (Although sometimes they let them be banker, because, to be honest, that position doesn't matter.) Although the realms are technically Republics or Democracies, the elections are mostly a formality. Once the clan is firmly in place, only one person runs, there is no campaigning, and that person is elected with a minimal number of votes, most people not even casting votes. The realm in question makes a stereotypical 180 degree turn: from being a small-time realm with little hope of advancement or success, they suddenly become a hyper-efficient military powerhouse. For the most part, orders seem to come out of nowhere. There is little or no IG discussion of plans/policies/treaties/etc., even in closed councils. A specific group of people is always available to follow orders. (Orders given 2 hours before a turn with no warning, and 100% movement of 40+ nobles (>90% of the realm) follows, reliably, time after time.)
Specifically not the economy as in how much the regions make, but the tax collection and distribution. As someone mentioned, gold gets sent to people who need it. In many cases, it gets send without a request for gold. So how do the people who distribute it around know who needs how much? We haven't found an answer to that question.
I didn't mean to imply that there was cheating. It's simply a fact that if you look at Aurvandil's performance, it's a major outlier. I'm sure everything is handled through existing game mechanics, however your average realm (even your above-average realm) would be very hard pressed to reach the kind of numbers and averages observed in Aurvandil. Incidentally, that is why this group of players keeps getting singled out. From Thulsoma through Averoth to Aurvandil and Fontan, the realms that are populated by these families enjoy eyebrow-raising levels of coordination and economic efficiency that are simply beyond the grasp of most realms in the game, if not all of them. This is why suspicion and accusations tend to follow them wherever they go. There is all sorts of evidence that the realm, as a whole, is min-maxing, which is really just another word for power gaming even if it's all comfortably within the designed mechanics of the game.
All the gold I send, comes with at the request of a noble, and if you can read the messages of Aurvandil, you will be able to verify that, and verify that when needed I go and ask other nobles if they need gold when I see their unit to be understrength. As for anyone else, well as far as I can see requests are made, gold is distributed. If not, it could simply be the case of seeing a noble who appears to need gold, and sending it to them along with a letter asking them to use it on their unit, happens in other realms.
After you look at Kabrinskia's total CS these days, your logic doesn't add up. They had over 30,000 CS 10 days past and sit on a single-duchy city just like Aurvandil did. In fact, Aurvandil didn't touch 30k until we had over 40 nobles. You see, it is possible for other realms to achieve this "unusual economic efficiency".
Out on another limb, if some of the Magistrates are the accusers in this situation would they be taken out of the council who'll make the final decision? Or will Tom himself do so? I don't believe it would be fair to include the Magistrates who made the accusations as they would have an unbiased opinion.
After you look at Kabrinskia's total CS these days, your logic doesn't add up. They had over 30,000 CS 10 days past and sit on a single-duchy city just like Aurvandil did. In fact, Aurvandil didn't touch 30k until we had over 40 nobles. You see, it is possible for other realms to achieve this "unusual economic efficiency".
Out on another limb, if some of the Magistrates are the accusers in this situation would they be taken out of the council who'll make the final decision? Or will Tom himself do so? I don't believe it would be fair to include the Magistrates who made the accusations as they would have an unbiased opinion.
My particular bugbear though is that the current general is run by a player who still insists on issuing both realm wide and individual orders without in any way seeking to include marshals in that process, despite this having been addressed both IC and OOC. Such behaviour runs directly counter to the advice given in the manual on how to play a Government Position and this raises the spectre of power being abused to deliberately favour one group of players in Fontan at the expense of others.
These orders are issued on a turn-by-turn basis with very little explanation of a broader strategy and only characters of this particular group seem privy to any of the "special" orders relating to looting, which further adds to the impression of cliquishness.
I've played positions of authority and there are times when an order outside the usual feudal chains of command makes sense for IC reasons. The natural break on doing this regularly is the pushback IC from those holding the feudal rights which have been compromised. It's certainly not something that should be the norm.
My particular bugbear though is that the current general is run by a player who still insists on issuing both realm wide and individual orders without in any way seeking to include marshals in that process, despite this having been addressed both IC and OOC. Such behaviour runs directly counter to the advice given in the manual on how to play a Government Position and this raises the spectre of power being abused to deliberately favour one group of players in Fontan at the expense of others.
These orders are issued on a turn-by-turn basis with very little explanation of a broader strategy and only characters of this particular group seem privy to any of the "special" orders relating to looting, which further adds to the impression of cliquishness.
When I was a controlling General I was highly successful, but I also made enemies within my own realm. It sounds to me that this is exactly what is happening in Fontan, and so I don't see how this is an OOC or Social Contract issue at all. Protest the General, hold a rebellion, or do something to oppose his rule. Have the Marshal directly contradict the General and claim direct control over the army. Any of these are legit IC actions and promote the fun of the game.
I have to agree with you. You are not a clanner. But what about the 16 characters/11 players that are.
Investigations in Aurvandil and, to a lesser extend in Fontan, revealed that the military as well as the economy of those realms is working like clockwork with almost no in-game communication.
So what is the problem? Some might not be included to out of game communication? Count me into that, I never post on the forum, and I don't intend to play the game by the forum, or find my gameplay subject to the hearsay of a few players on the forum. situation, I invited other players of my realm to do the same, if you can't even substantiate claims that there is a clan [...]NoblesseChevaleresque, can you explain how your realm works like clockwork with almost no in-game communication? The emphasis is on almost. Obviously the OOG communication does not refer to the forums and you know this.
Have you even identified who is in this clan? Or if there even is a Clan? I've pointed this out before, if there is a clan, I don't know about them, if there is a clan, they aren't running Aurvandil, if there is a clan, they they don't override any In character processes.This is fair. Those who are being complained about should of course be identified and more importantly be invited to put up a defence in the forum. Investigations have concluded that there is a clan and as it is not the entire realm members of both Aurvandil and Fontan there will naturally be a few who are in the dark.
In the interest of full disclosure, we also found that the alleged clan is not acting aggressively exclusive. We have seen characters join the realm and be welcome. However, to the best of our knowledge, they are not integrated into the alledged clan and receive none of the suspected OOG communications.This is what the Magistrates need to focus on. If not aggressively exclusive then how detrimental it is to the game.
Out on another limb, if some of the Magistrates are the accusers in this situation would they be taken out of the council who'll make the final decision? Or will Tom himself do so? I don't believe it would be fair to include the Magistrates who made the accusations as they would have an unbiased opinion.Another fair point. It is clear from other threads that one or two Magistrates may certainly be biased and in my opinion should recuse themselves regardless of whether they have a character (or not) in the realms mentioned or at war with the realms mentioned.
I respectfully request that you back that up with a list of players. I believe you're counting every noble who's ever been in both Aurvandil and Fontan, plus their family members in Fontan. Keep in mind that both realms have many players.
If this was a real clan invasion, those numbers would be 22 characters / 11 players.
Actually I did that... but it was to Tom who I assume gave them to the Dev team. I am not sure if it would be appropriate to list them here unless Tom or a Magistrate tells me to. Sorry
Another fair point. It is clear from other threads that one or two Magistrates may certainly be biased and in my opinion should recuse themselves regardless of whether they have a character (or not) in the realms mentioned or at war with the realms mentioned.
Answering specifically to the does it harm or hurt the game? Several things I would say it helps. The bankers/wealthy being pro-active by finding others who have a small unit and give them gold without asking is good as it helps out players who are busy and can't ask or think it would be wrong of them to just ask for gold (helps out the lower class of the realm who also don't get as much info due to being the low knight I see as a good.) The war of Aurvandil-Madina I see as good since except for the Lurias and the new Teran Kabrinskia war there hadn't been much on all the continent.Penchant, you have a misconception here about the Banker :o
I said banker with wealthy as I thought there was a banker likely of Aurvandil saying they gave gold without in game communication because they saw others needing it and had some to spare. Perhaps I misread and it was only a duke of one of the realms, either way I am not saying all bankers are wealthy just that the banker i thought i read about and other wealthy of the realm move gold around because of noticing small units which I see as a good thing for the game as its great for a newbie or other player who hasn't done much in the realm to get them involved. I myself when I had an excess of gold with one of my characters just looked for some players who needed the gold as I am rather against ever paying property or wealth taxes or whatever they are so I always give some around when in excess without others asking me and it makes whoever I give the gold to happier and thus more willing to get involved in discussions too.Thanks Penchant for explaining :)
The Magistrates have several lists that we have thus far not elected to make public, as we have no desire to possibly blacken someone's OOC reputation without discerning more details about the case.Basic principle of law, an accused has a chance to defend himself. You don't try him in the backroom without him even knowing he was on trial.[/quote]
If you think so, the Backroom is the place for that discussion, not the case thread, as we have gone over many, many times.A question was raised in open court on recusal - should I answer him in the backroom where it cannot reach him? The parts of the forum I am referring to are open to all. I raise nothing hidden. And yes, I do think so. It is painfully obvious. A discussion is hardly necessary. But if you wish to in the backroom by all means.
Something else to consider. Many of the non-clanners in Arcachon on FEI (maybe a dozen or so) rebelled against the clan group (20-25 nobles, I believe) and, thanks to good timing and a bit of deception, they won. The clanners then protested out the new ruler and judge not once, but three times (the non-clanners kept rebelling, the clanners kept protesting). I don't know about you guys, but I have never seen anyone protested out ever, let alone two council positions, repeatedly, in a realm of 40+ nobles, often within hours of their being appointed. I'd say that's "affecting the enjoyment of others" if anything is.
stuff
Basic principle of law, an accused has a chance to defend himself. You don't try him in the backroom without him even knowing he was on trial.
A question was raised in open court on recusal - should I answer him in the backroom where it cannot reach him? The parts of the forum I am referring to are open to all. I raise nothing hidden. And yes, I do think so. It is painfully obvious. A discussion is hardly necessary. But if you wish to in the backroom by all means.
Something else to consider. Many of the non-clanners in Arcachon on FEI (maybe a dozen or so) rebelled against the clan group (20-25 nobles, I believe) and, thanks to good timing and a bit of deception, they won. The clanners then protested out the new ruler and judge not once, but three times (the non-clanners kept rebelling, the clanners kept protesting). I don't know about you guys, but I have never seen anyone protested out ever, let alone two council positions, repeatedly, in a realm of 40+ nobles, often within hours of their being appointed. I'd say that's "affecting the enjoyment of others" if anything is.
This is a good point, however since it has not yet occurred in these cases I'm not sure it can be applied. So long as the clanners aren't actively excluding others from gameplay or denying them the ability to act then I don't believe they are violating the fair play terms of the contract. I've stated in more detail my arguments in the last post of the third page.
Also, I have seen protestation used in the past on my own characters. (having it succeed)
The only reason this case doesn't say Clan in Fontan, Aurvandil, AND, Arcachon is because Arcachon is dead. It was the same people, so I feel it actually does apply.
My point is, there is nothing wrong with clanning, not even with a clan TO in my opinion, as long as it happens IC and you don't exclude people. If there is a case opened against you in the magistrates you should look at these two criteria and see if you're really doing everything by the books because if you aren't, you may be having lots of fun, but you are keeping others in your own realm, or outside of it from sharing in that fun.
The more the merrier goes the saying after all.
Perhaps it would be helpful to remove the specifics from consideration. Forget the names Fontan and Aurvandil.
Is the behavior that has been described by Tom and Indirik a violation of the social contract, specifically the fair play clause?
Technically, that's the only thing that matters at the moment.
That is nonesense, what we are debating is the happenings WITHIN those realms, otherwise we are arguing an abstract point of "Toms opinion of what is considered insufficient IG communication + Achivement = Clan" which is a terrifying precident. For example, summerdale recently got a lot of nobles, if they were to now amass a large CS and win some battles and there enemies decided they didn't like it would they be investigated for clanning?
Furthermore, Tom, your name has a lot of influence in this case, and your clearly bias, I would suggest your continued involvement taints any fairness this court could have. In the same way that a President speaking to the media suggesting a person is guilty of crime would bias a jury in the real world
Referendum Results (5 days, 14 hours ago)
The referendum "Vote for the Ruler" has ended. Here is the final tally:
88 votes for Aulus Severus
62 votes for Zadek
20 votes for Rowan
0 abstentions
40 votes were not cast
The winning choice therefore is Aulus Severus, with 88 votes. A simple majority was required, i.e. 1 vote.
Therefore, Aulus Severus of the Scipii, Chancellor of Fontan has been confirmed in office.
As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
This is the monthly election for the position of Ruler (Chancellor).
All nobles of the realm will vote, each vote having the same weight.
Referendum Results (5 days, 14 hours ago)
The referendum "Vote for the General" has ended. Here is the final tally:
88 votes for Lyzekiel
72 votes for Rhidhana
0 abstentions
44 votes were not cast
The winning choice therefore is Lyzekiel, with 88 votes. A simple majority was required, i.e. 1 vote.
Therefore, Lyzekiel de' Striguile, Minister of Defense of Fontan has been confirmed in office.
As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
This is the monthly election for the position of General (Minister of Defense).
All nobles of the realm will vote, each vote having the same weight.
Referendum Results (5 days, 14 hours ago)
The referendum "Vote for the Judge" has ended. Here is the final tally:
78 votes for Prandur
72 votes for Justin
4 abstentions
52 votes were not cast
The winning choice therefore is Prandur, with 78 votes. A simple majority was required, i.e. 1 vote.
All hail to the new Judge, Prandur TithOnanka, Supreme Justice of Fontan, Count of Braga. He received 37% of the valid votes cast. replaces Justin Azul (Lord).
As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
This is the monthly election for the position of Judge (Supreme Justice).
All nobles of the realm will vote, each vote having the same weight.
Referendum Results (5 days, 14 hours ago)
The referendum "Vote for the Banker" has ended. Here is the final tally:
116 votes for Brock
30 votes for Ariana
4 abstentions
56 votes were not cast
The winning choice therefore is Brock, with 116 votes. A simple majority was required, i.e. 1 vote.
Therefore, Brock Ketchum, Minister of Finance of Fontan has been confirmed in office.
As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
This is the monthly election for the position of Banker (Minister of Finance).
All nobles of the realm will vote, each vote having the same weight.
The problem in Fontan is they are not doing it all IC. and they are excluding people. Fontan is a Democracy and the perfect place for clanning openly and IC, but they are not.
That is nonesense, what we are debating is the happenings WITHIN those realms, otherwise we are arguing an abstract point of "Toms opinion of what is considered insufficient IG communication + Achivement = Clan" which is a terrifying precident. For example, summerdale recently got a lot of nobles, if they were to now amass a large CS and win some battles and there enemies decided they didn't like it would they be investigated for clanning?
Furthermore, Tom, your name has a lot of influence in this case, and your clearly bias, I would suggest your continued involvement taints any fairness this court could have. In the same way that a President speaking to the media suggesting a person is guilty of crime would bias a jury in the real world
Tom does not participate in the deliberations of the Magistrates beyond answering questions that are posed to him. He does not argue any given case one way or another and obviously will abide by whatever decision we reach. What more would you ask of him?
Not exactly. We are NOT debating whether there is a clan within those realms. That is a given and confirmed fact. We can debate the actions of clans though and that can apply to others not just the one in Fontan and Aurvandil.
That he do nothing BUT answer the questions with only the facts.
So in that case this magistates case is a blanket case which will effect ALL suspected clans in battlemaster, using only 1 of the clans as an example, which assuming there are more clans in this game means that they will not be able to defend there actions and any clan based gaming within battlemaster, regardless of if it is benign or not will be treated the same?
Furthermore, Tom, your name has a lot of influence in this case, and your clearly bias, I would suggest your continued involvement taints any fairness this court could have. In the same way that a President speaking to the media suggesting a person is guilty of crime would bias a jury in the real world
Arguments that no such activity is occurring are pointless. Tom says it is. Tom has the tools to know.
And I for my part am very interested in setting a precedent that gives clear, broad guidance for what to do next time because, unlike Geronus, I am not optimistic about whether or not we will have this problem again.
So there, dissent among the Magistrates. Now somebody was saying something about biases. Anybody got any ideas about what biases Geronus and I may have?
This is basically what he does already, in every case that comes before us. The Magistrates have full independence of thought and decision-making.
It will potentially set a precedent, yes, though how broad that precedent is remains to be seen. Personally I favor a narrow interpretation, if in fact we rule in favor of the complainant at all.
This case has been a long time coming, and there is only one group in the game that I am aware of that has prompted Tom to begin this conversation, both here and in the anti-clan policy thread in the General Discussion forum. Therefore I think it's in everyone's best interest if the ruling is narrowly constructed. Magistrate cases should be rare, and for the most part players should be able to play the game without worrying constantly about being reported. It is my hope that this case remains the only one of its kind once it is settled one way or another.
!@#$ off. That is why I brought this case. I am the accuser and as such I'm supposed to be biased. If I didn't see anything wrong there, I wouldn't have brought the case. I think I picked my Magistrates well enough that they see that.
I doubt Fury meant the two of you, though I can only assume from your family page
It is a troubling issue, because of the nature of clans it is likely that a magistrate may be part of a clan, which means that they could easily "pervert the course of justice" if clans were tried one by one.
"little IC communication + success =/= clan"
This is not strictly correct. These trends in behavior have been tracked over the past few years. This isn't just the current Aurvandil/Fontan situation. It goes back to Averoth and Thulsoma before that. From what I can see, there is a clear trend of behavior. A small/poor/weak realm has, either quickly or over the period of a few months, a large infusion of players. For the most part these players are quiet, do what they are told to do. Dissenters are ridiculed. (When someone questions why a lord was banned without any debate or reason, they are told "Be quiet. If he was banned, he deserved it.") People from outside the group are generally not given positions of power. (Although sometimes they let them be banker, because, to be honest, that position doesn't matter.) Although the realms are technically Republics or Democracies, the elections are mostly a formality. Once the clan is firmly in place, only one person runs, there is no campaigning, and that person is elected with a minimal number of votes, most people not even casting votes. The realm in question makes a stereotypical 180 degree turn: from being a small-time realm with little hope of advancement or success, they suddenly become a hyper-efficient military powerhouse. For the most part, orders seem to come out of nowhere. There is little or no IG discussion of plans/policies/treaties/etc., even in closed councils. A specific group of people is always available to follow orders. (Orders given 2 hours before a turn with no warning, and 100% movement of 40+ nobles (>90% of the realm) follows, reliably, time after time.)
This is a repeating pattern that we have seen happen in multiple realms over the course of a few years. The current Aurvandil/Fontan case is not a sudden thing. It has just taken this long for things to build to this level.
We're not saying that everyone in the realm is involved. It is possible that some people in the realm may not know what is going on. But just because they don't know about it doesn't mean it's not happening.
It's not that simple, and also not germane to this case. A pattern of behavior has been established. Does it violate the fair play clause or not? Your opinion?
Summary: Clan activity detrimental to the game Violation: We expect you to play the game as you would play a board game with good friends, and to value fair play above any victory or power. World: East Island and Dwilight Complainer: Tom About: multiple people, see below
Full Complaint Text:
The source of two recent (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2228.0.html) forum topics (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1938.0.html) as well as a Titan investigation, I've decided to bring this case to the Magistrates as discussed here (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2255.0.html). While the anti-clan policy mentioned there does not yet exist and would not be applied retro-actively, the activities mentioned do violate the Social Contract, namely §3:
The activities in both Fontan and Aurvandil are considered by several players as unfair in this sense. A close-knit group of apparent friends is cooperating extremely close with the intent of victory and power over fun, especially that of others. Investigations in Aurvandil and, to a lesser extend in Fontan, revealed that the military as well as the economy of those realms is working like clockwork with almost no in-game communication. Just one example: There is a clear and (to the dev team with a direct view on in-game transactions) obvious system of gold distribution at work that is consistently and reliably employed by these players with almost no communication. Gold is constantly sent between characters without requests or orders. This makes no sense unless one assumes that the entire system is managed through out-of-game communication.
In the interest of full disclosure, we also found that the alleged clan is not acting aggressively exclusive. We have seen characters join the realm and be welcome. However, to the best of our knowledge, they are not integrated into the alledged clan and receive none of the suspected OOG communications.
I recently sent an announcement to the players of Fontan asking for their feedback on the clan "takeover" that was mentioned here on the forum. The feedback has been mixed, with some saying that everything is fine while others explained in detail what happens and why they are unhappy. As I promised these players confidentiality, their mails will be shared with the Magistrates, but not in public. I have not yet cross-referenced the e-mails with the list of players alledged to be members of the alledged clan.
My concern is that this activity, while not necessarily intended to do so, is causing players who face the clan as enemies, either within the realms they take control of or as war-enemies of those realms, so much frustration, that they are leaving the game. I believe we all agree that "playing a board game with friends" also includes keeping everyone at the gaming table. There is a difference between playing a game of chess at a competitive tournament and playing some board game with friends, and the mindset appropriate for one is not appropriate for the other.
I propose to break up the clan by deporting a randomly selected half of their members from both realms to randomly selected other islands, where they can then join realms of their own choice. I also propose to prohibit them from re-forming within the same realm at a size of more than one third of the number of characters in those realms for the period of one year.
If these players care about the game itself, this punishment would suck a bit, but it allows them to continue playing and lose only very little in stats. If they are still playing after the year, we can be sure of and point out to their haters, that they play even when they can't gang up on others. If, on the other hand, the haters are right and they care more about winning and power-gaming, we will see them leave and know it's a good riddance.
It's an obvious clan that has taken no efforts to conceal itself.
Except to lie about its existence nearly every time it has been challenged. The closest we have ever gotten to an admission that they are a clan was, IIRC, a remark along the lines of "Yeah, we're a bunch of friends who like to play together, and there's nothing wrong with that, so !@#$ off" from the group in Averoth.
(Disclaimer: The specifics of the remark may be distorted by time, fuzzy memory, and my own admitted bias against this clan.)
That was when there was a realmwide message posted to them threatening deletion if I remember rightly.
I never saw that in Fontan so it must have been on Dwilight.... can you post it here or send it to me privately so I can see it.
I thought Magistrates would discuss things within themselves. I don't think letting random people voice their opinions is productive. Why not maybe invite a couple people who are involved with the matter?
Do we punish those players for playing unfairly?
It has been said several times that nobody is upset about the results. The problem is how it's done. So please stop raising that strawman again and again. It's been thoroughly debunked.
It has been said several times that nobody is upset about the results. The problem is how it's done. So please stop raising that strawman again and again. It's been thoroughly debunked.
Aurvandil is going to be split up anyway, a new realm in Madina city, and I did consider one in Tower Fatmilak but the Colony Take over feature got removed. Aurvandil has also considered making other colonies (It sort of Mendicant's thing of "Oh yeah, you can have so and so if you ask nicely) in two months time, Aurvandil will have been unrecognisable anyway. Mendicant has made a strong point of "I don't want this in a realm" so he's giving away lots of land for new realms and encouraging nobles to leave to make new realms. If you're worried about a Clan in Aurvandil, this would either dissipate it, or give you chance to analyse who goes where and see to what extent it is actually clanning, and not just like mindedness in realms, it's a situation that could well resolve itself for Aurvandil, so I'd like for us not be forcibly split up, when we're on the verge of it anyway. That and, Mendicant has made a point of declaring these new realms won't be allies or friends of Aurvandil, and they will be fully independent, so we won't have a group of realms working together either.
As for Fontan, well I'm not in Fontan so I can't comment.
What I'm saying is, Tom, if I ignore the fact that they are in a clan,
It is also a nice in character solution that would also allow better access to non saxons to land and title positions so perhaps some of you can learn how Aurvandil is so effective.
Which is where you missed the point. The mechanism matters.
Is it just me, or did you just publicly admit to an OOC clan? You need to come up with an IC excuse why non-saxons (non-clannies?) can have land and titles?
Assuming this is done as is, it is a nice tidy resolution. It is also a nice in character solution that would also allow better access to non saxons to land and title positions so perhaps some of you can learn how Aurvandil is so effective.
Which is where you missed the point. The mechanism matters.
Is it just me, or did you just publicly admit to an OOC clan? You need to come up with an IC excuse why non-saxons (non-clannies?) can have land and titles?
Ah, but why does it matter? Because it's unfair?
Ah, but why does it matter? Because it's unfair? I feel like we're going in circles here.
We were told by multiple people, including Tom, that there is a clan, and to stop speculating whether there is a clan, because there is... repeatedly.
If you're worried about a Clan in Aurvandil, this would either dissipate it, or give you chance to analyse who goes where and see to what extent it is actually clanning, and not just like mindedness in realms, it's a situation that could well resolve itself for Aurvandil, so I'd like for us not be forcibly split up, when we're on the verge of it anyway. That and, Mendicant has made a point of declaring these new realms won't be allies or friends of Aurvandil, and they will be fully independent, so we won't have a group of realms working together either.
Plus, quite importantly, it gives original Aurvandilan's like myself a chance to try and resolve this "problem" ourselves and not seeing the work we've done ruined because of some players from other realms.
It will dissipate the Clan/s or expose them, and if there isn't a clan then that won't be a problem, without blanket punishing a lot of players who aren't clanners anyway.
We already have a reasonable idea of who is involved. This particular group has migrated through more than one realm over a fairly lengthy stretch of time. We don't really need to observe this phenomenon again to know what we're looking for.
While there is always a chance that some people who aren't in the clan will get deported, by and large we have a profile of what we are looking for. Whatever happens, it is not going to 'ruin' Aurvandil. You'll still have plenty of nobles, and your victory over Madina.
YES
There has also been no public posted evidence at the request of the ACCUSER whom also PICKED THE MAGISTRATES and is bias in this issue, as much as it may black mark the players, there names should be posted no trail can be had without evidence
I thought Magistrates would discuss things within themselves. I don't think letting random people voice their opinions is productive. Why not maybe invite a couple people who are involved with the matter?
Please don't shout. ;D
Why is it unfair then? What's stopping you and me from grabbing some active players and starting our own clan?
I believe it's fine for Tom to issue an edict saying "no more clans!" and start deporting nobles. However, we shouldn't act as if the clanners have deliberately and willfully violated the Social Contract, not when Tom's last known policy is "clans are fine as long as they do not exclude people". I have not seen any evidence that they have been excluding people, despite a few players loudly claiming that they have done so.
And I believe the argument that "it's unfair because this is a friendly game between friends" does not hold water. Games between friends, involving more than 2 opposing players, can still be competitive. I know most of you have played Diplomacy. I have certainly been ganged up on by friends in games before. If anything, the onus is on the losing parties to not be jerks about it. It's a lot easier to be a gracious winner than a gracious loser.
Again, just my opinion.
I have certainly been ganged up on by friends in games before. If anything, the onus is on the losing parties to not be jerks about it. It's a lot easier to be a gracious winner than a gracious loser.
Nothing is stopping us from getting the most active nobles on Atamara all together in a single realm and completely dominating if we wanted to. Would this be against the Social Contract? Woudl this even be considered a clan, since it consists purely of members who know each other from within the game. (Even if a few know each other outside).
What I am worried about is a precedent that prohibits active players from playing together. I know it has been stated multiple times that the "manner" in which it is done makes a difference, but I don't believe it does in the end. I am quite sure that if I went around, got the Kinseys, the Cheniers, Anaris's, name X other highly other active families and we all decided to go and join a realm together and to do whatever it takes to win militarily that complaints would be made. Are we a clan? No. Are we a group of players working together in game, with legitimate IC reasons? Sure, we can be. Although it could be without them as well.
But when you played again, did the same friends gang you again?
And a third time?
And a fourth?
.... a fifth?
And when you ask them why, and they tell you that they like each other better and have a pre-existing agreement never to backstab and organizedly distribute who wins the game how many times (after they kill you).... what about then?
One major difference is that if you just assembled the most hyperactive families in BM in one place, there would still be disagreements. Both Chenier and Anaris might want to rule, and they will both run and they will both campaign (well, Chenier might not if IVF is any guide, but you get my point) and the votes would likely be split between them. There will be arguments and disagreements as to the best course of action. In fact, given the most hyperactive players are also probably those most involved in intra-realm politics, I'd not be surprised if there were more internal politics and arguments than in a normal realm.
By contrast, clans work together. For all intents and BM purposes, they are a hive mind. They don't fight with each other, they don't bicker, they don't campaign against each other (and no, NoblesseChevaleresque, posting more messages showing arguments in Aurvandil won't prove anything, as no one here has said the clan there involves every member of the realm). The degree to which they work together easily for a single purpose would be impossible, or at least very difficult, for any normal realm. And that is what gives them the unfair advantage over everyone else.
But when you played again, did the same friends gang you again?I beleive his actual point was the "clanners" will fight each other despite being in a clan.
And a third time?
And a fourth?
.... a fifth?
And when you ask them why, and they tell you that they like each other better and have a pre-existing agreement never to backstab and organizedly distribute who wins the game how many times (after they kill you).... what about then?
What I'm saying is, Tom, if I ignore the fact that they are in a clan, I can't tell the difference between how they're playing the game and how some of us are playing the game.
Tom's last known policy is "clans are fine as long as they do not exclude people".
My position on clans is very simple. One, it is not illegal to have friends. Two, having fun with friends should not diminish the fun of everyone else.
If you want to play with and/or against friends, whether you call it a clan or not, that's fine with me. When whatever your group does wipes out the fun for other players, you'll feel my wrath. This mostly means that it is not ok to take over a realm for your clan. [...]
And when you ask them why, and they tell you that they like each other better and have a pre-existing agreement never to backstab and organizedly distribute who wins the game how many times (after they kill you).... what about then?
My position on clans is very simple. One, it is not illegal to have friends. Two, having fun with friends should not diminish the fun of everyone else.
If you want to play with and/or against friends, whether you call it a clan or not, that's fine with me. When whatever your group does wipes out the fun for other players, you'll feel my wrath. This mostly means that it is not ok to take over a realm for your clan. [...]
If these clanners are so good and so organized, then why aren't they winning more often?
They were not able to save Thulsoma from the Astroists.
The issue is the one-mind thing.
A clan doesn't have to be 50% of a realm in order to consistently win elections, only more than the largest other candidate. As many players in most realms don't vote, and it is likely that there are 2 non-clan candidates, as few as 20-25% of the realm voting jointly one way can put their people into the government. The problem is that they don't need to do anything, but be friends. Even if they have only 1 non-clan candidate, that guy still has to convince people to vote at all and to vote for him. And he has to do it through IC means. He can't just hop on IRC or say during lunch break "hey, you all vote for me, right?".
To some extent, that's just part of the game, and OOC friends playing are not a major problem - until they can push out people without that advantage.
... that army of 30 would do the trick, won't it.
That makes sense.
One thing I'd like to know is this: If I got together with 14 of the other most active players here in BM, and we all decided to send 2 character to some East Island or Atamara realm and decided not to take over the realm but to simply join it and build up its military to be hyper active are we breaching the game policy? We would participate as normal members, but we would have a mutual understanding that we could create our own army of 30 nobles, and depend upon 100% movement rates with everyone moving out from within 1 hour of the turn change happening so no one could predict our movements. This would not be a set policy, or asked of anyone, but since the group could do it, it would be the simply understanding amongst the members to try and help out the realm as best as possible.
Is that against the Social Contract? All of the players are well known and active members of the current BM community. We don't seek to take over the realm but merely to join in. Granted, it is possibly that one of the members wins elections every now and then, but that is not the intent but a simply by product of the number of nobles there. We don' all vote in tandum or always agree, but we do agree to build a 100% efficient and strong military system.
Is this wrong?
One thing I'd like to know is this:
Really?
Seriously?
You're going to use that as evidence that the clanners aren't effective enough to be a worry?
GoldPanda, Thulsoma was a ridiculously poor three-region realm that took the entire might of Sanguis Astroism months to kill.
Then Averoth, a slightly less ridiculously poor realm, did the same thing, with more or less the same people.
If they hadn't been up against the single strongest powerbloc on Dwilight, Haruka Vanimedle' would still be annoying the rest of the rulers of Dwilight with long RPs peppered with Old Norse characters. (Letters, that is, not people.)
If they hadn't been in such piddly pathetic little realms, they might have conquered half of Dwilight's Northeast by now.
The kind of power that that sort of group can wield is devastatingly unbalancing to the game, even if you ignore their willingness to abuse family gold for all it's worth.
Thulsoma was *cheating* for all these months. It didn't take SA long to crush it once that was resolved.
This is not a trial for what happened in Averoth, Thulsoma, or any other dead realm. This is a trial about what's going on right now. Being guilty then does not necessarily make them guilty now.
Averoth made its gold by investments and had a good gold ethic ...
stuff
Have magistrates made the decision?
As I stated before, the existence or non-existence of a clan is not a topic of contention. Your posts have been deleted.
Did you actually read the post? Because judging from your reply you most certainly did not, he did not deny there was a clan, just denied that it was in control of Averoth, which does not deny the existance of a clan.
Thulsoma was *cheating* for all these months. It didn't take SA long to crush it once that was resolved.
This is not a trial for what happened in Averoth, Thulsoma, or any other dead realm. This is a trial about what's going on right now. Being guilty then does not necessarily make them guilty now.
I agree with Velax. We are looking for clan behavior, and past actions are evidence of consistency in both the people involved and their approach to the game. I would have added the Archachon events had I remembered them. Many of you here are more familiar with in-game events than I am, as I do mostly development.
The complaints are not unanimous. People from both Aurvandil and Fontan not belonging to the clan have vouched for them, saying they were fun and not exclusive.
BM, however "light weight" it is, depends on hyper active players to make things fun. The rank-and-file sheeple who log in once a turn at best don't make the game fun for others.
These guys are not using their advantages to create stagnation, they are using it to create conflict. If all they wanted was boring control, then they could easily spread out and monopolize a bloc of realms.
Your definition of fun must be massively different from mine. Seeing a realm of four to five regions managing to out CS even Sirion while moving their forces in unison is not fun, especially when the ONLY option to oppose them solo is mass OOC recruiting and communication just like them, is not fun. As much as people like to claim there is some sort of clan in Westmoor, no one there plays like that. As a roleplayer and as a BM member, the entire situation makes me sick.