BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Tom on April 14, 2012, 04:38:24 AM
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I'd like to introduce a "no whining policy" to the game, maybe as part of the social contract.
Two reasons and a definition:
The reasons are for one that whining inside the game, e.g. in an OOC message to your realm, really doesn't do any good at all. If your complaint is legitimate, then it was posted somewhere where very likely nobody who can do anything about it (dev team, GM, etc.) is listening. Reason two is that it disrupts the gameplay and spreads the frustration from one player to many. It shows disrespect towards the other players, who might be enjoying the game just fine.
By whining I mean OOC complaints spread to a wide audience. Complaints of the kind that the audience receiving it can't do anything about. Venting, frustration, etc.
Note that I'm not saying you can't say anything when you're frustrated or upset. What I'm saying is that it should go to the proper forum board, and stay out of the game.
Thoughts?
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Maybe on Dwilight, but I'd disagree with elsewhere.
OOC messages have always been part of the game, and a lot of players, especially the more silent ones, are more comfortable discussing special events with the people they play with every day than with random strangers on an intimidating forum they never participated in.
Venting can also be therapeutic sometimes. I've seen a few occasions where something frustrating happened and multiple mostly silent people spoke up OOC to vent their frustrations. Honestly, these were the moments where I truly felt like I was playing as part of a team as this game used to be, as opposed to the free-for-all with a bunch of anonymous players the game has begun.
And besides, the limit between a legitimate and illegitimate complaint is thin and subjective.
A large chunk of the player base doesn't use the forums. I don't feel we should censor them.
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I don't see the necessity of it. People like to vent, censoring it just makes it seem like there's something to cover up.
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In my opinion and experience venting doesn't actually help; it is more likely only to increase the amount of venting and counter-venting and whatnot.
I've seen too much random venting done OOC posted to the realm or religion or whatever; where it does no good until and unless a dev team member catches word or happens to be included in the message group is. If there is an issue with BM-level events or whatnot I think it should be posted to the forum and not to the realm.
It's kind of sad when there's so little IC character interaction and communication and then one person complains OOC to the realm and then there's a flurry of discussion, often pages and pages of it, where it really just distracts from the game and again doesn't do much good.
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Yes, but as people have already stated, not everyone uses the forums. for obvious reasons. Anyways, this is a matter that's way too subjective for something like this. One person's whining is another person's just trying to get some help.
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Well, maybe they should use the forums.
Since they're here and all.
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I think the idea is ridiculous, and a knee-jerk reaction to the players' reaction to the Beluaterra mortality message. Comes across far too much as "You're not allowed to criticise the game."
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Trying to restrict that type of OOC will be going on a rough road filled with opposition for no measurable gain.
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Yes, but as people have already stated, not everyone uses the forums.
But everyone could use the forum, so that's not an excuse. That's like saying it's ok to piss into my doorway because not everyone uses a toilet. Sure, they have to piss somewhere, but there's a perfectly good place to do it.
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I think the idea is ridiculous, and a knee-jerk reaction to the players' reaction to the Beluaterra mortality message. Comes across far too much as "You're not allowed to criticise the game."
Then I wasn't clear enough and you are welcome to improve on my formulation. But the point is that criticism in the wrong place does more harm than good. What good is criticism if nobody who can do anything about it hears it? Heck, I don't mind creating a General Whining board if that's what it takes.
And yeah, there's a bit of a reaction in there. I have a very strong distaste for talking about people behind their backs. You want to say something about me? Say it to my face.
The problem with both the personal and the game "criticism" is that the dissenting views are rarely posted. There are lots of people enjoying things just like they are, but they don't post about it in OOC messages to the realm. The whining creates a wrong impression and bad atmosphere, because the non-whiners correctly abstain from abusing the in-game OOC for discussions
Basically, in the "boardgame with friends" metaphor, I feel like having invited an !@#$%^& who waits until the host leaves the room before telling everyone that the curtains suck and he hates the food. I know that as a fellow guest I'd feel awkward. As the host, I feel insulted. Not because you don't like my curtains, but because you talk behind my back, and that in my home.
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What if someone mistakes friendly teasing for an OOC complaint? Some people have really thin skin. And it's easier to misinterpret a joke over text. :p
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What if someone mistakes friendly teasing for an OOC complaint? Some people have really thin skin. And it's easier to misinterpret a joke over text. :p
You have little trust in the Magistrates to sort that out, do you?
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You have little trust in the Magistrates to sort that out, do you?
I don't think the magistrates should go over that.
As for the forums, it's certainly not a light-weight means of discussion.
As long as players don't verbally abuse each other, I think OOC censorship is detrimental to the game.
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I would welcome removal of whole OOC message type from the game. It very often causes these crappy OOC flamewars, cheating accusations and all kind of crappy whining.
Mayby add OOC tag only if sent to certain messagegroup(ea. council, army, single character etc. if you want to point out that you will be away or smthng like that) other OOC poop dont belong inside the game.
-Jaune
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I would welcome removal of whole OOC message type from the game. It very often causes these crappy OOC flamewars, cheating accusations and all kind of crappy whining.
Mayby add OOC tag only if sent to certain messagegroup(ea. council, army, single character etc. if you want to point out that you will be away or smthng like that) other OOC poop dont belong inside the game.
-Jaune
How many times have we been over this?
Removing the OOC message tag from the game would not magically prevent people from sending OOC messages. It would only mean that the people who don't want to receive them would have no way of filtering them out.
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Then those who use OOC poop without OOC tag, would get reported to titan/magistarte what ever GM thing... and get penalty for it... believe me, it would stop at some point.
-Jaune
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Then those who use OOC poop without OOC tag, would get reported to titan/magistarte what ever GM thing... and get penalty for it... believe me, it would stop at some point.
-Jaune
And we'd lose 2/3 of the player base.
Next bright idea?
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Uh, are you saying 2/3 of BM community want to use all in realm OOC poop? Uh, i bet i have seen far more people leave because of OOC poop that people who insist that they must be able to pee on peoples cerials through OOC crap.
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Uh, are you saying 2/3 of BM community want to use all in realm OOC poop? Uh, i bet i have seen far more people leave because of OOC poop that people who insist that they must be able to pee on peoples cerials through OOC crap.
I'm saying that 2/3 of the BM community would be furious at being told that they could be punished for saying a single thing OOC. And rightfully so.
This is not a reasonable request.
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I agree that there's too much whining going on, but I'm afraid it's just something that we have to deal with. This is the internet, after all. If I play BF3 online, I get whined at because I shoot people and I'm a cheater/hacker because I'm not supposed to be able to shoot people without cheating, apparently.
A bit of whining is normal, we have to deal with that. You can still punish the excessive whining on a case-to-case basis.
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I think we should leave these things like they are now.
Happened before, happens now, and will happens later, but not everyone put attention to these, or at least it just last a while in most cases.
Peace!
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Maybe in some others islands, but I really don't see so many whining
I honestly prefer to see a little whining than see nothing at all, that is what I see sometimes (or don't see)
IMMO I'd better want some game 'development' to make it more 'alive' than to shut up some little whiny
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One thing I would like to say is that when people have whined/vented they found out that they were wrong about what their complaint was and that their was quick fix that was shared with them. Telling people to go on forums I don't like because I myself get tired of making a bunch of accounts for everything even if it isn't doesn't take that long.
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Then I wasn't clear enough and you are welcome to improve on my formulation. But the point is that criticism in the wrong place does more harm than good. What good is criticism if nobody who can do anything about it hears it? Heck, I don't mind creating a General Whining board if that's what it takes.
And yeah, there's a bit of a reaction in there. I have a very strong distaste for talking about people behind their backs. You want to say something about me? Say it to my face.
The problem with both the personal and the game "criticism" is that the dissenting views are rarely posted. There are lots of people enjoying things just like they are, but they don't post about it in OOC messages to the realm. The whining creates a wrong impression and bad atmosphere, because the non-whiners correctly abstain from abusing the in-game OOC for discussions
Basically, in the "boardgame with friends" metaphor, I feel like having invited an !@#$%^& who waits until the host leaves the room before telling everyone that the curtains suck and he hates the food. I know that as a fellow guest I'd feel awkward. As the host, I feel insulted. Not because you don't like my curtains, but because you talk behind my back, and that in my home.
You need to stop taking things so personally. You aren't a player in this board game. You're not even the host, really. You're more like the Parker Brothers or Bioware. The creator or publisher of the game, not a player. And as such people aren't going to and shouldn't have to complain directly to you all the time.
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I think Tom can handle things, i understanded that he was "worried" about regular players. When someone start to cry & whine something which most people who listen that crying cant do a thing... or have no intrest to participate OOC flamewar.
I really, really cant find anything that this game needs OOC messages to whole realm... just gimme some examples WHY you need to say something to 20+ OOCly? Want to chit chat with players, get yer butt to IRC or forums, want to tell that your goldfish died and you will be mourning it for few days and wont login, let your marshall or general or ruler or council know about it... Not to even mention these "You are breaking my inalienable rights and i will report you to titties!" wentings and arguing which turn more and more dirty.
But, i have survived 10 years with OOC poop, i guess i can handle it.. but i have seen many people quit cause of those.
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I would like to mention there is a difference between complaining about something and a flamewar. I have nothing against reporting two players who are flaming to the whole realm.
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I would like to mention there is a difference between complaining about something and a flamewar. I have nothing against reporting two players who are flaming to the whole realm.
Can flaming be a legitimate reason for an OOC ban? If not, perhaps it should be.
I think the OOC channel perfectly fits within the 'playing a board game with friends' principle. If I need help with an aspect of the game, or wish to compliment someone on a message I liked, or want to comment on a peculiar event, I like to use the OOC channel. I think OOC messages can be vital at times to defuse the heated relationships/feuds characters can have, and to make sure they do not grow into the player level.
TL;DR: OOC usually isn't bad, imho.
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I would like to mention there is a difference between complaining about something and a flamewar. I have nothing against reporting two players who are flaming to the whole realm.
Indeed.
OOC complaints, or whining if you wish to call them as such, help me get the pulse of other players who would otherwise never use the forums to express themselves. It has also helped me on a few occasions get a better idea of how I could run or push things for them to be enjoyable to everyone. Sometimes, these events have led to great educational discussions of "Actually, X doesn't work as you think, it works as Y".
As long as it's civil. Ban flame wars if you will, I've seen a good number of those in the past and they are not good for the game, but don't censor anything else.
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OOC complaints, or whining if you wish to call them as such,
There's a difference. Not every complaint is whining. A complaint made in the proper form and the proper forum is usually welcome.
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OOC complaints, or whining if you wish to call them as such, help me get the pulse of other players who would otherwise never use the forums to express themselves.
Not trying to annoy you Tom but according to your definition every complaint he is talking about is whining as he is talking about in-game complaining using the ooc message type, which is whining by your definition due to the fact it is not even in the forums, since you said it needs to be in the proper forum.
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Not trying to annoy you Tom but according to your definition every complaint he is talking about is whining as he is talking about in-game complaining using the ooc message type, which is whining by your definition due to the fact it is not even in the forums, since you said it needs to be in the proper forum.
Depends on what you complain about and to whom. Not every complaint is about the game as a whole.
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The OOC complaining (not that I've seen any for a while) is often unnecessary and, as others have already stated, detracts from the gameplay.
It's not much, but maybe another 'notice' type text (as when you select to send to all in realm) could be put in place so that, when sending OOC, a question is raised as in "are you sure this should be posted in game, or should it be in the forums?" and give a link to the forum.
Might stop some of it at least...
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To me the main problem with the way you formulated the idea, Tom, is that "whining" is not only too abstract and subjective, as it is not necessarily insulting. While I agree that someone being insulting to the dev team, game or you should be warned and punished if he doesn't stop. Not only the players have the right of not being insulted. But the problem then is not "whining", it is "insulting".
If someone is frustrated enforcing punishments for him to vent it in another forum won't really solve much. Some will continue venting in the game, being reprimanded and getting even more frustrated, while others will simply shut up, and we will miss their point of view. The problem is excessive whining, but then the problem is not about whining in itself, but in excess of OoC disturbing the gaming experience of players.
The difference I am trying to draw is between eventual OoC complaints and repeated ones. The former are part of a healthy community, the later should be dealt with, for they are nor constructive nor in the right place.
You need to stop taking things so personally. You aren't a player in this board game. You're not even the host, really. You're more like the Parker Brothers or Bioware. The creator or publisher of the game, not a player. And as such people aren't going to and shouldn't have to complain directly to you all the time.
This is insulting. Really, rethink what you wrote.
It's not much, but maybe another 'notice' type text (as when you select to send to all in realm) could be put in place so that, when sending OOC, a question is raised as in "are you sure this should be posted in game, or should it be in the forums?" and give a link to the forum.
This would be a sensitive solution if the problem was deemed serious and spread. I personally have not come in contact with much whining.
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It is worse in some realms than others. There was a particularly long and very ill-informed whine in Sint this morning about the new policy of Overlord's. The player is convinced that Tom is frustrated that he is losing the invasion, and will be issuing death duel challenges with Overlord so he can kill large numbers of characters, and thus "win" the invasion against the players. ::)
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This is insulting. Really, rethink what you wrote.
No matter what you think, it's the truth, I'm afraid. If you're playing Monopoly and find a particular aspect of the game annoying, do you have a bit of a bitch to the friends you're playing with, or do you ring up Parker Brothers and complain to their CEO?
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I took a moment as the ruler of Fronen to write an OOC asking people to come here to post their complaints or to message Tom directly. This after one player rage-paused and several others made negative comments. It's been quiet since. IMO it's up to the rulers to referee what's going on in their own realms.
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No matter what you think, it's the truth, I'm afraid. If you're playing Monopoly and find a particular aspect of the game annoying, do you have a bit of a bitch to the friends you're playing with, or do you ring up Parker Brothers and complain to their CEO?
First: Tom is a player, very much like you and me. That he cannot offer his viewpoint as a player, or play his own game, would be the ultimate... Sorry, I lack a proper word.
Second: He is also more of a host in his house, us being his guests, than a CEO from a far-away company. He is not charging us anything and he giving us ample means for exposing our opinions with feedback and whatnot. As we are doing right now. Try telling the Parker Brothers something remotely like this.
Third: In this invasion he is the Game Master. If you are unsatisfied with it you can ask for a refund. I am sure he will be willing to give you every cent he charged you for the time and effort he has been putting.
Four: Good luck finding GMs willing to be treated like employees for free.
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No matter what you think, it's the truth, I'm afraid. If you're playing Monopoly and find a particular aspect of the game annoying, do you have a bit of a bitch to the friends you're playing with, or do you ring up Parker Brothers and complain to their CEO?
It's not the same. BM is not finished and will never be, it's constant beta actually, so consider yourself a beta-tester. If you don't agree with something in the game, you don't go and complain to your fellow testers, you take it up with the creators.
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When you play a board game, you usually aren't censored and can tell your friends what you think of the game. I don't see why it should be different here. I, for one, would not play any board game where OOG talk is unacceptable.
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When you play a board game, you usually aren't censored and can tell your friends what you think of the game. I don't see why it should be different here. I, for one, would not play any board game where OOG talk is unacceptable.
If it's a RP game the point is to have IC be the predominant form of communication, immersion and all. A player constantly whining would certainly be quite annoying to the group, and one that stated that the fun of the GM is of absolutely no importance to him, well, would not really fit into the whole idea of friendly game.
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If it's a RP game the point is to have IC be the predominant form of communication, immersion and all. A player constantly whining would certainly be quite annoying to the group, and one that stated that the fun of the GM is of absolutely no importance to him, well, would not really fit into the whole idea of friendly game.
The proposed policy and Tom's comments that followed leaned more on the side of "ban all negative OOC comments, if not all OOC comments altogether", rather than "ban behavior that would be incompatible with the social contract".
By whining I mean OOC complaints spread to a wide audience. Complaints of the kind that the audience receiving it can't do anything about. Venting, frustration, etc.
Note that I'm not saying you can't say anything when you're frustrated or upset. What I'm saying is that it should go to the proper forum board, and stay out of the game.
He wants it all complaints out of the game and into the forums.
The d-list, as the forum, have always been an extra for players who want to involve themselves more. It has never been necessary to use them.
Now should be no different.
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When you play a board game, you usually aren't censored and can tell your friends what you think of the game. I don't see why it should be different here. I, for one, would not play any board game where OOG talk is unacceptable.
When you play a board game, with the creator of that board game playing it with you, listening to the things that those playing it are saying and making changes to try to improve things based on what those other players are saying, then, one of the players experiences something they don't like and, rather than be constructive with feedback they just go on a whining session, which might then taint other player's views on the game without bothering to have fully understood everything first, you can understand why the creator would get annoyed.
You really need to stop talking about Tom as if he is not one of the players of BattleMaster. He didn't create a game with a few friends, sell it to other people, then put his fingers in his ears and start singing "I'm not listening".
Before you whine about anything, just make sure you've understood the facts first. Or, explain (politely and constructively) how you have understood what has been said and ask for clarification. If you then still have objections to what has happened then politely and constructively explain why...
It's not exactly hard really is it...
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When you play a board game, with the creator of that board game playing it with you, listening to the things that those playing it are saying and making changes to try to improve things based on what those other players are saying, then, one of the players experiences something they don't like and, rather than be constructive with feedback they just go on a whining session, which might then taint other player's views on the game without bothering to have fully understood everything first, you can understand why the creator would get annoyed.
You really need to stop talking about Tom as if he is not one of the players of BattleMaster. He didn't create a game with a few friends, sell it to other people, then put his fingers in his ears and start singing "I'm not listening".
Before you whine about anything, just make sure you've understood the facts first. Or, explain (politely and constructively) how you have understood what has been said and ask for clarification. If you then still have objections to what has happened then politely and constructively explain why...
It's not exactly hard really is it...
It's the definition of "whine" that I can't stand for.
Honestly, the best analogy I can think of is of Tom had created a trading card game (like Magic: The Gathering) and was hosting a large tournament in which he was playing. Compare the continents in the game to rooms of the building where the event is hosted, and realms as tables around which players are seated.
Now picture that some of the card combos are broken, or that some sets of cards are slightly stronger than others, or heck, that sometimes the air conditioning turns off. You know the host made this game, and that he's playing on some other table, and left a customer service desk to get complaints.
As these events unfold, sometimes the players talk to those around them and say "hey, you know, it's really hot in here" or "gee, this set of cards doesn't seem as useful as the other". You know, just generic comments on the state of the game and the tournament. What the new "whining" policy would be is the equivalent of "players are not allowed to talk with each other, all comments MUST be made to customer service or sanctions will be inflicted".
Honestly, I find that to be a really hostile playing environment. Not everyone wants to go to customer service. Let players talk with each other, and then if they agree that there's a problem, odds are one of them will go to customer service to express the problems they're having.
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It's not much, but maybe another 'notice' type text (as when you select to send to all in realm) could be put in place so that, when sending OOC, a question is raised as in "are you sure this should be posted in game, or should it be in the forums?" and give a link to the forum.
I think this solution, or a variation thereof, is the right course. We'll never stop occasional meta-discussion or meta-whining in game, but we can make it so they have to think about it before hitting that send button.
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I think this solution, or a variation thereof, is the right course. We'll never stop occasional meta-discussion or meta-whining in game, but we can make it so they have to think about it before hitting that send button.
Unfortunately, Tom is already against "Are you sure you want to do this?" buttons...
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Unfortunately, Tom is already against "Are you sure you want to do this?" buttons...
Tom already stated he will never ever add any 'are you sure' button unless it is very VERY important like a character deletion.
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Tom already stated he will never ever add any 'are you sure' button unless it is very VERY important like a character deletion.
It wasn't a button I suggested, it was a text line in exactly the same way as already exists when you choose to send a message to the entire realm (in realms of a certain size).
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It wasn't a button I suggested, it was a text line in exactly the same way as already exists when you choose to send a message to the entire realm (in realms of a certain size).
Yes, I like this idea. But can we make the gold text only appear for OOC messages?
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Yes,
Yes, I like this idea. But can we make the gold text only appear for OOC messages?
Yes, we can. Someone please propose a text.
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You are about to send out of character message to whole realm. Are you sure that everybody in the realm needs/wants to know or need to hear what you are about to post?
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Yes,
Yes, we can. Someone please propose a text.
Should this message be OOC?
If you have found a bug, please report it to the bugtracker (hyperlink).
If you want to complain about a game function that's working as intended, please use the forums (hyperlink to dev forum).
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Just a few comments(even if a little late):
1-) Please, Tom, before anything you need to stop using the "whining" term, as it was said before, it sound disrespectful and can push people away, as creator of the game you need to treat somethings with a more professional view than personal. People will always complain, you won't be able to satisfy all and taking it personally will injure your health and stress you out. Yes you are a player of the game. But he is also the boss. So for some things you need to be more professional(and this goes for all the staff and people that helps you, players or not, volunteers or not, the "Dev team" title, for example, represents you and BM official view of things) when it comes to this matters, free or not you still provide a service to a worldwide group of people. Not just your friends.
2-)Remove or in anyway discourage the OOC messages, removes the "playing with friends" aspect of the game. How can i become friend with a realm member if I can't send them OOC message? OOC message serves not only for venting and in-realm complaint, it helps people to know each other outside the character they created.
3-) I would suggest something more like, instead of adding a text asking if the message you're about to send should be OOC. Add it to the players page. There you can say:
If you have found a bug, please report it to the bugtracker (hyperlink).
If you want to complain about the game, please use the forums (hyperlink forum).-> Here can also be created a topic informing people of where to go (General talk go here, game function go here, magistrate case here, etc)
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might want to add (search existent entries 1st)....
though sad to say... i do drop a few duplicates in myself.