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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: Arrakis on April 18, 2012, 02:21:07 PM
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Not sure if this is the right place for this, but not only that militia wasn't disbanded in Mt. Black Nastrond as was the Magistrates decision, but they just added another unit. The character named Veles Sobczek just put his unit as militia, therefore increasing the total amount. I have two scout reports to prove it.
I mean really...
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At the time of sentencing there was approx 4k militia in Mt Black Nastrond. I believe the sentence was to rectify the situation by disbanding the militia. However, there is still 4k militia there.
I'm not sure whether its possible to rename militia, but either Orriss has renamed several units of militia,or they are slowly 'complying' with the magistrates command by, one unit at a time (as to keep their mobile CS up) dropping a unit of militia and disbanding one of the Summerdale ones . This is 'technically' following the sentence of disbanding the summerdale militia(over a long time), but doing it in a way that seems to defy the intent of the sentence.
This is something the magistrates should clearly be made aware of but I too was not sure where to report this.
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Actually, there is 5550 CS militia in the last scout report.
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Can you please post the results of your scout reports to support this? Not that I don't believe you, but seeing them ourselves will potentially be helpful in assessing the situation.
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http://www.battlemaster.org/ShowScribeNote.php?ID=192033&Hash=b5270a663e0f37c9 (older report - Veles has a mobile unit called Plains archers)
http://www.battlemaster.org/ShowScribeNote.php?ID=192079&Hash=b0c54d8cd6c674cb (newer report - he dropped it as militia and is now without a unit)
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Well there's nothing wrong with them adding militia of their own... Do you have anything older that would show just what the Summerdalians left there so we can see if any militia has been disbanded and compare it with the current situation?
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This the oldest one I have...maybe someone else has something older.
http://www.battlemaster.org/ShowScribeNote.php?ID=191761&Hash=ce6b48141fcf33a9
So, please correct me if I am getting this wrong. They are allowed to add as much militia as they want, regardless of whether the Summerdale militia has been disbanded? If so, then they are technically able to just dump their own 4k right now, and then remove the old militia. Which means their punishment doesn't really have a meaning, for the great advantage they got by abusing a bug is still here - the militia. Allowing this would only cost them some gold in the long run (the gold needed to re-recruit once they dump their own militia).
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Due to the limited lifespan of scribe notes, only ones up to 4 turns old are available (at least from me). Summerdale dropped militia bold, Libero italicized.
[Scribe:191761|ce6b48141fcf33a9] Scout Report (Mt. Black Nastrond 4 turns
Springdale Escort Brigade Pirtamri Libero Empire 170 Archers 1200 stationary
Hunters of Nifel (militia) Libero Empire 80 Archers 650 dug in
Militia Theodred Libero Empire 80 Mixed Infantry 750 stationary
Hawk's Rangers Hawk Libero Empire 60 Mixed Infantry 650 stationary
Springdale Red Company Walnar Libero Empire 60 Infantry 550 approaching from Torrents Breath
Springdale City Guards Clive Libero Empire 60 Infantry 650 approaching from Torrents Breath
Cold Spring Archers (militia) Libero Empire 60 Mixed Infantry 500 dug in
Army Banner Dark Guard Rohk Libero Empire 60 Cavalry 800 stationary
Valldir's Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 500 dug in
Imber MacManus Andrew Libero Empire 60 Archers 650 approaching from Nifelhold
I Company Archers, I Dalian Army (militia) Libero Empire 60 Archers 550 dug in
Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 450 dug in
Mountain Archer Defense (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 400 dug in
Summerdale - Dumberfail Florian Libero Empire 45 Infantry 450 stationary
Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 40 Archers 350 dug in
Grancourt Infantry (militia) Libero Empire 35 Infantry 350 dug in
Praetorians Kniva Libero Empire 30 Special Forces 600 stationary
Hakkapeliitat Maxter Libero Empire 25 Infantry 250 stationary
Personal Guard Reis Libero Empire 25 Infantry 225 stationary
Deleus Dawn (militia) Libero Empire 20 Infantry 300 dug in
Summerdales Bane Orris Libero Empire 15 Special Forces 400 stationary
[Scribe:191816|77bcf51e734c1855] Scout Report (Mt. Black Nastrond 3 turns
Hunters of Nifel (militia) Libero Empire 80 Archers 650 dug in
Plains Archers Veles Libero Empire 80 Archers 800 approaching from Torrents Breath
Militia (militia) Libero Empire 70 Mixed Infantry 600 stationary
Hawk's Rangers Hawk Libero Empire 60 Mixed Infantry 650 stationary
Springdale Red Company Walnar Libero Empire 70 Infantry 600 stationary
Springdale City Guards Clive Libero Empire 60 Infantry 650 stationary
Cold Spring Archers (militia) Libero Empire 60 Mixed Infantry 500 dug in
Dark Guard Rohk Libero Empire 60 Cavalry 750 stationary
Valldir's Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 60 Archers 550 dug in
Imber MacManus Andrew Libero Empire 60 Archers 650 moving out to Torrents Breath
Mortekai Archer Guard Mortekai Libero Empire 50 Archers 550 approaching from Nifelhold
I Company Archers, I Dalian Army (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 450 dug in
Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 450 dug in
Mountain Archer Defense (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 400 dug in
Summerdale - Dumberfail Florian Libero Empire 40 Infantry 400 stationary
Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 40 Archers 350 dug in
Grancourt Infantry (militia) Libero Empire 30 Infantry 300 dug in
Hakkapeliitat Maxter Libero Empire 30 Infantry 300 stationary
Praetorians Kniva Libero Empire 25 Special Forces 550 dug in
Personal Guard Reis Libero Empire 25 Infantry 225 stationary
Deleus Dawn (militia) Libero Empire 20 Infantry 300 dug in
Summerdales Bane Orris Libero Empire 20 Special Forces 400 stationary
[Scribe:191935|5aa7203b1dbf3ea2] Scout Report (Mt. Black Nastrond 2 turns
Springdale Escort Brigade Pirtamri Libero Empire 170 Archers 1200 approaching from Nifel
Hunters of Nifel (militia) Libero Empire 90 Archers 750 dug in
Plains Archers Veles Libero Empire 80 Archers 800 stationary
Militia (militia) Libero Empire 80 Mixed Infantry 650 dug in
Hawk's Rangers Hawk Libero Empire 60 Mixed Infantry 600 stationary
Springdale Red Company Walnar Libero Empire 60 Infantry 550 stationary
Cold Spring Archers (militia) Libero Empire 70 Mixed Infantry 650 dug in
Springdale City Guards Clive Libero Empire 60 Infantry 600 stationary
Dark Guard Rohk Libero Empire 60 Cavalry 750 stationary
Valldir's Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 450 dug in
Imber MacManus (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 500 stationary
Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 500 dug in
Mortekai Archer Guard Mortekai Libero Empire 50 Archers 550 stationary
Mountain Archer Defense (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 400 dug in
Summerdale - Dumberfail Florian Libero Empire 40 Infantry 400 stationary
Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 40 Archers 350 dug in
Praetorians Kniva Libero Empire 25 Special Forces 600 moving out to Nifel
Hakkapeliitat Maxter Libero Empire 25 Infantry 300 moving out to Nifelhold
Personal Guard Reis Libero Empire 20 Infantry 225 stationary
Deleus Dawn (militia) Libero Empire 20 Infantry 300 dug in
Summerdales Bane Orris Libero Empire 20 Special Forces 400 stationary
[Scribe:191992|2cf23b517cb94384] Scout Report (Mt. Black Nastrond 1 turns
Springdale Escort Brigade Pirtamri Libero Empire 180 Archers 1250 approaching from Nifel
Hunters of Nifel (militia) Libero Empire 80 Archers 700 dug in
Plains Archers Veles Libero Empire 80 Archers 750 stationary
Militia (militia) Libero Empire 80 Mixed Infantry 700 dug in
Hawk's Rangers Hawk Libero Empire 60 Mixed Infantry 650 stationary
Springdale Red Company Walnar Libero Empire 60 Infantry 550 stationary
Cold Spring Archers (militia) Libero Empire 60 Mixed Infantry 550 dug in
Springdale City Guards Clive Libero Empire 70 Infantry 650 stationary
Dark Guard Rohk Libero Empire 60 Cavalry 850 moving out to Nifelhold
Valldir's Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 500 dug in
Imber MacManus (militia) Libero Empire 60 Archers 600 stationary
Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 450 dug in
Mortkai Archer Guard Mortekai Libero Empire 45 Archers 450 stationary
Mountain Archer Defense (militia) Libero Empire 45 Archers 400 dug in
Summerdale - Dumberfail Florian Libero Empire 45 Infantry 450 stationary
Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 40 Archers 350 dug in
Personal Guard Reis Libero Empire 20 Infantry 225 dug in
Deleus Dawn (militia) Libero Empire 20 Infantry 300 dug in
[Scribe:192079|b0c54d8cd6c674cb] Scout Report (Mt. Black Nastrond fresh
Springdale Escort Brigade Pirtamri Libero Empire 180 Archers 1200 stationary
Hunters of Nifel (militia) Libero Empire 90 Archers 800 dug in
Plains Archers (militia) Libero Empire 80 Archers 700 stationary
Militia (militia) Libero Empire 70 Mixed Infantry 650 dug in
Hawk's Rangers Hawk Libero Empire 70 Mixed Infantry 700 stationary
Springdale Red Company Walnar Libero Empire 60 Infantry 550 stationary
Cold Spring Archers (militia) Libero Empire 60 Mixed Infantry 600 dug in
Springdale City Guards Clive Libero Empire 60 Infantry 600 stationary
Valldir's Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 60 Archers 550 dug in
Imber MacManus (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 550 dug in
Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 500 dug in
Mortekai Archer Guard Mortekai Libero Empire 50 Archers 500 stationary
Mountain Archer Defense (militia) Libero Empire 50 Archers 450 dug in
Summerdale - Dumberfail Florian Libero Empire 45 Infantry 400 stationary
Steel Rain (militia) Libero Empire 45 Archers 450 dug in
Personal Guard Reis Libero Empire 20 Infantry 200 dug in
Deleus Dawn (militia) Libero Empire 20 Infantry 300 dug in
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Since the verdict, only 30 men of Summerdale militia has been disbanded (leaving 265 still), yet they have dropped an additional 310 men of their own.
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The ruling from the Magistrates was emphatically not intended to mean that Mt Black Nastrond must remain free of militia. It was only intended to see that the militia that were brought over with the region due to the exploitation of the bug were disbanded.
Since disbanding militia costs gold and hours for the Lord, I don't think it's unreasonable that they be allowed to stretch the disbanding of it all over the course of a few turns. (Especially if there were more than 12 units to begin with!)
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Since the verdict, only 30 men of Summerdale militia has been disbanded (leaving 265 still), yet they have dropped an additional 310 men of their own.
Ah. That's a bit of a different story.
I will ensure that the relevant parties know about this.
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Ah. That's a bit of a different story.
I will ensure that the relevant parties know about this.
Indeed, this is a concern. The player in question should be using a significant portion of his time to disband the militia each turn.
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So long as he has the gold, anyway. It's winter, and travel is slow. I think he has to go all the way back to Springdale to cash bonds if he doesn't have sufficient gold on hand. If that's the case he's probably still in transit... We'll see what the Libero players have to say.
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Their capital is Nifelhold, one region away. (I made that mistake IC :P )
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Conveniently, their capital got moved to Nifelhold prior to the war declaration ::) , so it's one region away really.
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Conveniently, their capital got moved to Nifelhold prior to the war declaration ::) , so it's one region away really.
The capital has been in Nifelhold for several months now. Travel times in winter are 12+ hours from Mt. Black to Nifelhold (I have a cavalry unit with vanguard and it takes me as long). Orris is currently in Nifelhold. I don't know what he's doing, but given he hasn't been able to collect a tax yet, nor do I think he holds an estate anyway, he's probably cashing bonds or otherwise getting gold.
Even now that it is spring, it is a 8 hour trip. I haven't seen a court held or a message from Orris in at least three turns. I'm sure that the Devs can check to see what kind of activity he is doing though.
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Ah, I apologize. I didn't know it has been that long since the capital was moved. As far as I remember Springdale was Libero's birthplace and years long capital, which is why it is weird to see that changed. What were your reasoning for this? Easier management of the realm?
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I doubt he has bonds to cash, after paying the militia! :D We'll just have to murder death kill before they can reenforce it further :P
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Sort of off topic but:
Nifelhold was the last capital of Springdale the realm and the original Morek. There's a lot of roleplay associated with it. We were having control problems after the last rebellion and the exodus of half a dozen or so nobles under the old estate system. Once the threat of Saxon invasion was over, we moved the capital (if I recall correctly) to stabilize this problem. This was long enough ago that Hawk was still the King meaning previous to 2011-08-22.
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According to some further information, the Lord of Mt Black Nastrond is in the capital with a bunch of bonds and very little gold, and has not yet logged in today.
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I'm not sure whether its possible to rename militia, but either Orriss has renamed several units of militia,
For the record: It is not possible to rename militia units. They can be reinforced, disbanded, or assigned to a unitless noble by the general. But not renamed.
So, please correct me if I am getting this wrong. They are allowed to add as much militia as they want, regardless of whether the Summerdale militia has been disbanded? If so, then they are technically able to just dump their own 4k right now, and then remove the old militia.
That is correct.
Which means their punishment doesn't really have a meaning, for the great advantage they got by abusing a bug is still here - the militia. Allowing this would only cost them some gold in the long run (the gold needed to re-recruit once they dump their own militia).
It does indeed have a meaning. It forces them to pay gold and hours to disband the militia. It forces them to pay to hire hire new militia, and all the time it takes to hire it, move it, and drop it. And it forces them to use up the recruits from their own centers to do it.
As Anaris said, there was never any intention for the region to remain clear of militia for some unspecified tome period.
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I guess the issue is that the Summerdale people assumed the Magistrate decree was for Libero to immediately disband all militia in the region, so it would be militia-free for at least a short while. Instead it seems Libero have chosen to slowly disband it while replacing it with their own, so the region will still be as well defended as it was at the start. I can see how the Summerdale people might be annoyed with that, given Libero shouldn't have had the region at all, and because of Libero exploiting a bug, Summerdale have now lost a region and the cost of all the militia they put into it.
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and because of Libero exploiting a bug
At no point did Libero exploit a bug.
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From the Magistrate's verdict:
"The Social Contract explicitly forbids exploiting bug or loopholes. In this case it has been determined that the player of the Morton Family did exploit a bug by changing the allegiance of Mt. Black Nastrond after becoming the lord as a result of an obvious bug."
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Instead it seems Libero have chosen to slowly disband it while replacing it with their own, so the region will still be as well defended as it was at the start.
They have not chosen to do so. They are limited by the game mechanics, just as you are. Based on the information available to the devs, we are reasonably confident that they disbanded as many units as they could with the hours and gold the Lord had on hand, at which point he had to return to Nifelhold to cash his bonds.
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And others in Libero have chosen to drop more militia in the meantime.
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From the Magistrate's verdict:
"The Social Contract explicitly forbids exploiting bug or loopholes. In this case it has been determined that the player of the Morton Family did exploit a bug by changing the allegiance of Mt. Black Nastrond after becoming the lord as a result of an obvious bug."
Is the player of the Morton Family synonymous with the Libero Empire?
No.
Then the Libero Empire did not exploit a bug.
Now, if LE is intentionally dragging its feet on this and avoiding enforcing the verdict, we'll handle it. But if it's just that they're taking a reasonable or natural interval of time, not much we can do. We certainly can't and shouldn't and won't prohibit them from dropping militia in the region.
We do not correct bugs. We are not in the business of returning things to status quo ante-buggum.
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Is the player of the Morton Family synonymous with the Libero Empire?
No.
Then the Libero Empire did not exploit a bug.
Now, if LE is intentionally dragging its feet on this and avoiding enforcing the verdict, we'll handle it. But if it's just that they're taking a reasonable or natural interval of time, not much we can do. We certainly can't and shouldn't and won't prohibit them from dropping militia in the region.
We do not correct bugs. We are not in the business of returning things to status quo ante-buggum.
Did I say you should be correcting bugs? I was simply explaining why Summerdale feels aggrieved and saying I could understand it. It's not rocket science.
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And others in Libero have chosen to drop more militia in the meantime.
Which is perfectly reasonable. They want the region to be defended with militia, so they are using their own units, paid for with their own money, which they will need to replace with, again, their own money, to ensure it will be well-defended even after the required actions have been taken.
It is regrettable that the incident happened in the first place, but from everything the dev team can tell, Libero Empire is doing all in their power to fulfill the conditions of the verdict as fast as they can.
Nothing else is within the Magistrates' purview at this time.
If the situation changes, and it seems as though the Lord is dragging his feet in disbanding the militia, then there may be other steps which can be taken.
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Maybe the magistratum should avoid resolutions that are not intended to be immediately implemented? Or state time restrictions for verdicts that fall under that category? The verdict certainly left me with the impression that it should have be done immediately; not after replacement militia has been placed, when the lord manages to cash bonds, or when long enough has gone by that we would have been better off attacking our own militia in the first place. I guess it falls to a disparity between the expectation from the verdict of the Summerdale players, the Magistratum and the Libero Empire players... too much grey area.
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Maybe the magistratum should avoid resolutions that are not intended to be immediately implemented? Or state time restrictions for verdicts that fall under that category? The verdict certainly left me with the impression that it should have be done immediately; not after replacement militia has been placed, when the lord manages to cash bonds, or when long enough has gone by that we would have been better off attacking our own militia in the first place. I guess it falls to a disparity between the expectation from the verdict of the Summerdale players, the Magistratum and the Libero Empire players... too much grey area.
It should be done immediately. In this case, immediately means possibly quite a few days: activity must be considered (Magistrates are bound by the IRs as well), and disbanding militia takes hours. It physically cannot all be done at once.
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It is regrettable that the incident happened in the first place, but from everything the dev team can tell, Libero Empire is doing all in their power to fulfill the conditions of the verdict as fast as they can.
While this message did not carry the negative connotations of the previous ones (appreciate it, Anaris), I think we need to seriously disambiguate the terms "Libero Empire" or "Libero" with the player of Orris Morton. This is becoming very close to an OOC grief against an entire realm of players that have done absolutely nothing wrong and are just playing with the hand they were dealt. The realm at large has not even received notice that Orris did something wrong (other than an OOC message from Orris himself) much less the details of the verdict.
Again, I'm biased, I play in Libero. However I don't like to be called a cheater, dishonest or someone who is untrustworthy when the situation is out of my control.
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The realm at large has not even received notice that Orris did something wrong (other than an OOC message from Orris himself) much less the details of the verdict.
Again, I'm biased, I play in Libero. However I don't like to be called a cheater, dishonest or someone who is untrustworthy when the situation is out of my control.
What?
Seriously?
Did you not receive the verdict?
I am almost sure I clicked the "public verdict" option. But maybe I had a click-o....
Did you really not see the verdict IG?
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What?
Seriously?
Did you not receive the verdict?
I am almost sure I clicked the "public verdict" option. But maybe I had a click-o....
Did you really not see the verdict IG?
I have no reason to lie about this - I didn't see a verdict and I can only assume that others did not as well. I would have expected a few OOC messages if a weird message that people have never seen before popped up.
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Okay, tried it again.
Did anything happen?
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Don't see anything. Maybe this is a feature? ;) Maybe my character doesn't receive reprimands!
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Seriously?
You don't see anything?
I clicked the "public" box. Your character in Libero Empire does not see ANY warning?
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Not seeing anything either.
Also, if we're really going to talk about fairness, maybe we should be encouraging any future people coming from DF to join Libero instead of Summerdale, hmm? I'll play the hand I get, but it seems to me that the dramatic increase in players Summerdale has just had is just as unfair as the advantage Libero has gotten from this bug.
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Honestly, I'm not seeing anything.
At times like this, I consult my Dev team. I'm sure the message is stored somewhere.
Would you like me to file the bug report? :)
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I'll look into what's going on with the warning.
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I'll play the hand I get, but it seems to me that the dramatic increase in players Summerdale has just had is just as unfair as the advantage Libero has gotten from this bug.
Seems like things are even, then.
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Apparently there's still some code missing for public verdicts.
I'll see if I can get that fixed.
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@Bardic_Nerd
The people from DF who are joining Summerdale are there because one player from Summerdale advertised first BM, and then the realm he plays in. He advertised it and that is the sole reason why so many new players in Summerdale. Saying that it is not fair because you didn't think of it first is really poor logic. You should try to advertise Libero Empire somewhere else...who knows, you may get a ton of new players and there is a ton of other forums to promote the game. In the end BM wins as we get a lot of new players. ;)
On the other hand, we have a player who deliberately exploited a bug in order to gain *substantial* advantage in this war. I really don't agree with the Magistrates about this punishment as it has ton of loopholes and he do as he pleases. You speak about fairness, but is it really fair that the only punishment he got is just gold? After your foes legitimately outsmarted you abd took the most important region of the entire war? The main advantage, region+militia=big advantage, is still there and it will remain to be there. The punishment doesn't affect that at all, and that is bad. We don't correct bugs but we should correct bug exploits...which are, IMO, two different things.
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I don't mind playing the hand I'm given... but right now it feels to me like the dealer said "here's an ace" then waited two days and handed me a three. At this point I'm all for just playing on... continuing to wait for the militia to be disbanded and discussing it on the forum isn't doing anything but making bad blood between players.
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@Bardic_Nerd
The people from DF who are joining Summerdale are there because one player from Summerdale advertised first BM, and then the realm he plays in. He advertised it and that is the sole reason why so many new players in Summerdale. Saying that it is not fair because you didn't think of it first is really poor logic. You should try to advertise Libero Empire somewhere else...who knows, you may get a ton of new players and there is a ton of other forums to promote the game. In the end BM wins as we get a lot of new players. ;)
On the other hand, we have a player who deliberately exploited a bug in order to gain *substantial* advantage in this war. I really don't agree with the Magistrates about this punishment as it has ton of loopholes and he do as he pleases. You speak about fairness, but is it really fair that the only punishment he got is just gold? After your foes legitimately outsmarted you abd took the most important region of the entire war? The main advantage, region+militia=big advantage, is still there and it will remain to be there. The punishment doesn't affect that at all, and that is bad. We don't correct bugs but we should correct bug exploits...which are, IMO, two different things.
This is just like any other bug in the sense that no one is going to go in and instantly remove all that militia, or revert the region to Summerdale's control. Tom's policy is and has been since I started playing that the results of bugs are not corrected. Sometimes that means you get screwed even once the bug is fixed. Sometimes it means you get a nice little bonus. Sometimes one player gets a bonus at another player's expense. Is that really fair? Nope. But them's the rules. I'm fairly sure this applies to bug exploits as well. If you disagree with that stance, I believe the person to take it up with would be Tom.
In assessing this situation, we determined that this was not a calculated exploit. The player of Orris had no idea that this bug would occur in advance of when it did, nor has he since attempted to reproduce it to his own benefit. The ruling was made because we felt the player had other options than to do what he did, but it's not necessarily clear how well he understood that fact, seeing as he does not appear to be quite as much of a BM junky as those of us who regularly read this forum (and have probably acquired a nuanced understanding of the rules as a result). Either way, we do not feel that this was done with Malice Aforethought. A message has been sent via the warning. As a result this shouldn't happen again (not without much more serious repercussions anyway). So long as the player of Orris makes a good faith effort to remove the additional militia when he can, I do not think that we should do anything else. The only other option we have is locking that player's account. I'm not sure that I see how doing so would render the current situation any more just or palatable for the players in Summerdale (and would also result in you having to wait longer before those militia get disbanded, might I add).
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Indeed, a lock would keep the militia in place.
And, honestly, as we've discovered that public verdicts weren't actually being announced publicly, I'm inclined to offer leniency here especially, as much of LE might not have known there was any verdict at all, or at least not details.
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A verdict has been reached, and IG enforcement actions have been made.
Maybe the magistratum should avoid resolutions that are not intended to be immediately implemented?
There may be a misunderstanding here. The only IG enforcement action available to Magistrates is to give a private/public warning (which apparently doesn't work) or a 1 day/ 2 day/ 3 day lock.
The Magistrate vote succeeded for only a public warning - this is the IG enforcement action that is meant. Whether the player concerned disbands the militia or not is solely by his own graciousness. He is not compelled to do so nor can we force that.
I suggested that he disband the militia and whether he does so or not only affected the voting. Now that voting is over, the case is closed and we do not revisit cases to bring up another voting or punishment. One case, one time vote.
In short, punishment (a public warning) has been meted out.
The player concerned doesn't have to do anything.
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There may be a misunderstanding here. The only IG enforcement action available to Magistrates is to give a private/public warning (which apparently doesn't work) or a 1 day/ 2 day/ 3 day lock.
The Magistrate vote succeeded for only a public warning - this is the IG enforcement action that is meant. Whether the player concerned disbands the militia or not is solely by his own graciousness. He is not compelled to do so nor can we force that.
I suggested that he disband the militia and whether he does so or not only affected the voting. Now that voting is over, the case is closed and we do not revisit cases to bring up another voting or punishment. One case, one time vote.
In short, punishment (a public warning) has been meted out.
The player concerned doesn't have to do anything.
The above is the personal opinion of one Magistrate, and as such should not be considered reflective of the Magistrates collectively.
Were the player in question to not disband the militia as asked, the Magistrates would collectively review the situation. But, crucially, exactly what we would do is not yet determined.
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couldn't you (or dev) have just spawned a big chunk of monster/undead and get them to fade after a battle?
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Tom could, if he wanted. But then again, Tom could just do some sql-fu and delete the militia straight out of the databse if he wanted.
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In fact, deleting the militia would be vastly easier.
Despite what bizarrely persistent rumor would have you believe (and despite how fun it would be), there really is no "spawn massive amounts of monsters here!" button.
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Yet?
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Maybe we'll put it in after the code rewrite is done. ;)
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@Bardic_Nerd
The people from DF who are joining Summerdale are there because one player from Summerdale advertised first BM, and then the realm he plays in. He advertised it and that is the sole reason why so many new players in Summerdale. Saying that it is not fair because you didn't think of it first is really poor logic. You should try to advertise Libero Empire somewhere else...who knows, you may get a ton of new players and there is a ton of other forums to promote the game. In the end BM wins as we get a lot of new players. ;)
Please no. The shadow of clandom is looming over BM already and you're suggesting opening the floodgates. One of the reason I like BM is because it doesn't have clans running the whole game... not yet at least. 100 new players are worthless if all they do is clan up and take over a corner of the map to run their own private BM game.
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But, 100 new players can learn not to do that if the existing players are fun and friendly. Never forget that. If existing players care little about new players, then who would not prefer to play with people they already know?
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I've joined Summerdale with the motive to give the new players a hand (and cause it was boring where i played before) and i can attest that so far they are doing real good, and the older players are really helpful, too. they rp a bit, do some scouting and stuff. once a big battle happens i think they will stick around. no sign of clanning so far.
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Keep up the good work. Welcoming new players is an essential part of BM.
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The above is the personal opinion of one Magistrate, and as such should not be considered reflective of the Magistrates collectively.
Were the player in question to not disband the militia as asked, the Magistrates would collectively review the situation. But, crucially, exactly what we would do is not yet determined.
To review is to go outside the scope of the Magistrate function. There is and never has been any clause to review for failure to comply. If it happens again, then file a new case. Any further action on cases closed needs to be referred to everyone-knows-who. All case have been and are settled as-is.
Since the militia is already being strengthened let's look for a double whammy or even triple. Just lock his account for 3 days every 3 days until a new lord takes over to disband the militia.
I'm calling punishing a player again and again until he complies a Magistrate abuse. Now that's got to be a first. Our verdict did not and does not hinge on future compliance by the player. Of course, I'll admit - this could be a clever way to increase magisterial powers.
Crucially, what we would do if the militia was not disbanded was not raised in discussion during the verdict (any verdict in any case) because it was never going to be a point of contention once the case was closed. Wait - must have been my opinion again.
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To review is to go outside the scope of the Magistrate function. There is and never has been any clause to review for failure to comply. If it happens again, then file a new case. Any further action on cases closed needs to be referred to everyone-knows-who. All case have been and are settled as-is.
Since the militia is already being strengthened let's look for a double whammy or even triple. Just lock his account for 3 days every 3 days until a new lord takes over to disband the militia.
I'm calling punishing a player again and again until he complies a Magistrate abuse. Now that's got to be a first. Our verdict did not and does not hinge on future compliance by the player. Of course, I'll admit - this could be a clever way to increase magisterial powers.
Crucially, what we would do if the militia was not disbanded was not raised in discussion during the verdict (any verdict in any case) because it was never going to be a point of contention once the case was closed. Wait - must have been my opinion again.
Please stop presenting your interpretation as fact. I'm not saying you are wrong, simply that there is no precedent to imply that either point of view is correct. The Magistrate system has in no way been functional long enough to make broad statements about how to handle compliance issues.
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Please stop presenting your interpretation as fact. I'm not saying you are wrong, simply that there is no precedent to imply that either point of view is correct. The Magistrate system has in no way been functional long enough to make broad statements about how to handle compliance issues.
Agreed, there is no consensus on this yet. And it should be discussed in the Backroom, not here.
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Please stop presenting your interpretation as fact. I'm not saying you are wrong, simply that there is no precedent to imply that either point of view is correct. The Magistrate system has in no way been functional long enough to make broad statements about how to handle compliance issues.
Functional time is not the issue. Precedent is. And it does not refer to point of view. And my interpretation is a fact.
- There is no appeal. If you think the decision was totally wrong, you can try to mail tom@battlemaster.org - but your chances aren't very good. Unless the decision is obviously faulty, I will stand behind my Magistrates.
Or are we saying there is an appeal for a review? Even if there is it needs to go to - as I said - a higher authority. Another fact.
The Dev team has also said it does not fix the consequences of bugs unless it is game-changing. Another fact.
Standing dev-team policy on bugs is that a) the effects of bugs do not get fixed and b) players are expected to play out the consequences of any bugs however they wish.
The dev policy and the social contract don't contradict.
We don't fix it and flip the region back.
We do punish exploitation of the bug.
This is an obvious exploitation of a bug.
We've already punished. Are we now trying to fix it? The dev policy and the social contract don't contradict. What about (the dev policy + the social contract) and the Magistrate policy? Are we going to have a contradiction? I call indirectly 'fixing' it circumventing dev policy. I'll admit it's a clever way for a power grab from the devs (<- joke here).
Please stop presenting my interpretation as not facts.
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Take the Magistrates private arguments to the back room. This discussion is closed.