BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: Zakilevo on April 25, 2012, 04:14:20 AM
-
At the moment, many strongholds are placed in meaningless places. Like under mountains or middle of a desert, or at the end of a map. Many armies can simply go around those fortresses without losing too much of their time. Why attack strongholds when you can attack cities...
I think fortresses should be placed across a bridge or more strategic points where people are forced to attack it or they have to go around much longer distances.
If moving strongholds can't be done, maybe there should be some other things to compensate for it?
-
Got some ideas. It's not stuff that's going to happen before the Doctrine transition is done, but I have "make strongholds matter" high on my priority list after that.
-
Got some ideas. It's not stuff that's going to happen before the Doctrine transition is done, but I have "make strongholds matter" high on my priority list after that.
Sounds wonderful Tim. Hopefully the doctrine transition will be done soon...
-
Got some ideas. It's not stuff that's going to happen before the Doctrine transition is done, but I have "make strongholds matter" high on my priority list after that.
It would be nice if you shared your ideas despite the fact it will be a while until its done.
-
It would be nice if you shared your ideas despite the fact it will be a while until its done.
I'd like to run them past Tom first, since they involve real balance changes.
-
I'd like to run them past Tom first, since they involve real balance changes.
Quite understandable. Also thanks for the quick reply.
-
Hehe, after the Doctrine transition. ;)
-
Allow recruitment from strongholds....BOOM instant game changer.
Sure everyone can walk around a stronghold, the thing is no one wants to have an enemy army behind their main force.
-
That would definitely give strongholds a new purpose. But you would still need to get a bunch of nobles into the stronghold behind the enemy army, so I doubt it would have the effect that you are suggesting.
It would simply make strongholds more desirable. I suppose it would therefore make strongholds on the border of two warring realms very big targets.
-
A small thing maybe, but strongholds would be slightly more useful if you could fully repair in them. I always thought strongholds would be more military focused than a city, so why would they have fewer/less skilled blacksmiths?
-
That always bugged me, too.
Strongholds do have some obscure, nice advantages that no one has ever figured out, too.
-
Like what? High walls? Additional bank if you move your capital there?
-
I think fortresses should be placed across a bridge or more strategic points where people are forced to attack it or they have to go around much longer distances.
That sounds nice on paper, but falls down very quickly once you put it into the game. Just look at the wars that have happened around the lake on Atamara. Both sides of the bridges have townslands on them and max. level 2 walls. Every single war I have seen fought over there during my 5+ years of playing have devolved into staring matches across the bridge and an occasional assault or two. Add in a stronghold on either side with level 5 walls and it just turns into a war that isn't any fun at all.
-
Strongholds do have some obscure, nice advantages that no one has ever figured out, too.
I'm intrigued.
-
Like I said, they are obscure, but nice.
Whether or not they can be revealed is not my decision.
-
Meh. They don't need to be revealed... I just need to get myself a stronghold somewhere so I can play around with it a bit. :)
-
Meh. They don't need to be revealed... I just need to get myself a stronghold somewhere so I can play around with it a bit. :)
When you figure it out, let me know. I've been duke of a stronghold for years and never noticed any special perks. But then again, I've never had a city so I can't compare the two.
-
When you figure it out, let me know. I've been duke of a stronghold for years and never noticed any special perks. But then again, I've never had a city so I can't compare the two.
I've got a couple of cities sitting around...just got to myself a stronghold!
This might actually make a decent small project hmm?
-
wags....
... cheaper rc? more room for "workshops"? cheaper militia?
-
They have access to pretty much all economic buildings (they're like a city with a scouts guild pretty much), have cheaper fortifications, can have a bank if the capital is moved there, are self-sufficient food-wise, and... actually, that's all I can think of at the moment.
-
Hear hear, the revealer of secrets and tellers of non-conf-lies will sell the mysterious book "Secrets of Strongholds" for a mere 200 gold or bonds. Contact him for further information. He also accepts cash or cheque, but you have to sign a disclaimer absolving all responsibilities as a human being before sending payment.
-
Like I said, they are obscure, but nice.
Whether or not they can be revealed is not my decision.
Let me take a crack at it. One of the things that I remember is that their walls can be upgraded past level 6.
Various regions have preferences for recruitment center types. I'm betting they have a higher than all other region type chance of making special forces, and generally have higher values in training and armor/weapons. Something tells me that the rate they fill up with recruits is also special. Either drafts have little effect on morale or reduced. Higher values of draftees, or higher natural replenishment.
-
Let me take a crack at it. One of the things that I remember is that their walls can be upgraded past level 6.
Various regions have preferences for recruitment center types. I'm betting they have a higher than all other region type chance of making special forces, and generally have higher values in training and armor/weapons. Something tells me that the rate they fill up with recruits is also special. Either drafts have little effect on morale or reduced. Higher values of draftees, or higher natural replenishment.
Why don't we collect some data and see if your theory is right or not?
I am the lord of Shrine of Seeklander, probably the biggest fortress on dwilight. Here are the RCs I got after almost spending 3k gold.
40 95/50 inf - 15 recruits per day Size 3
50 95/50 cav - 5 recruits per day Size 2
55 80-5/75 SF - 3 recruits per day Size 2
From observing my region, for both inf and cav centers I got low def while the SF center had more balanced stats with low training.
The regions has 10700 population.
-
them recruit per days seems exactly the same as my 10k townsland in bt.
-
Meh. They don't need to be revealed... I just need to get myself a stronghold somewhere so I can play around with it a bit. :)
I hear Nuzanki is pretty nice this time of year.
-
That sounds nice on paper, but falls down very quickly once you put it into the game. Just look at the wars that have happened around the lake on Atamara. Both sides of the bridges have townslands on them and max. level 2 walls. Every single war I have seen fought over there during my 5+ years of playing have devolved into staring matches across the bridge and an occasional assault or two. Add in a stronghold on either side with level 5 walls and it just turns into a war that isn't any fun at all.
+1
Don't get me wrong, at first I am like "yeah!" The idea sounds cool, but realistically if strongholds were placed at true geographic choke-points, we would see even more massive stalemates at those choke-points than we already have.
Imagine if there was a stronghold on either side of Cantril on Atamara right now. :o
-
You can go around the stronghold by using mountains if you want to go around. Having a stronghold should count for something. If you take the stronghold though, you will gain an immense advantage. You can always attack your enemy's stronghold by surprise. Gather your men and declare war as you attack the stronghold. Take it before your enemies can react. Sounds dirty but that is how many strongholds were lost.
Or making walls of strongholds weaker if you attack it from the behind. Most of the strongholds had taller walls on one side while lower walls on the other.
-
Go loren! :) Some pretty interesting stuff there.
-
You can go around the stronghold by using mountains if you want or going around. Having a stronghold should count for something. If you take the stronghold though, you will gain an immense advantage. You can always attack your enemy's stronghold by surprise. Gather your men and declare war as you attack the stronghold. Take it before your enemies can react. Sounds dirty but that is how many strongholds were lost.
Or making walls of strongholds weaker if you attack it from the behind. Most of the strongholds had taller walls on one side while lower walls on the other.
I feel like strongholds should have held more spots like Balance's retreat. Either really isolated, or, even better, as the shortest path between areas (imagine Balance's Retreat with a back door, and with more mountains around the mountains).
-
I feel like strongholds should have held more spots like Balance's retreat. Either really isolated, or, even better, as the shortest path between areas (imagine Balance's Retreat with a back door, and with more mountains around the mountains).
Yeah. Many were placed to force your enemies to take a longer route to their destination.
-
I feel like strongholds should have held more spots like Balance's retreat. Either really isolated, or, even better, as the shortest path between areas (imagine Balance's Retreat with a back door, and with more mountains around the mountains).
that would be great. Basically have north divide and Fatexna switch positions and remove the bridge, and presto! shortcut from Unterstrom to Poryatown.
-
That sounds nice on paper, but falls down very quickly once you put it into the game. Just look at the wars that have happened around the lake on Atamara. Both sides of the bridges have townslands on them and max. level 2 walls. Every single war I have seen fought over there during my 5+ years of playing have devolved into staring matches across the bridge and an occasional assault or two. Add in a stronghold on either side with level 5 walls and it just turns into a war that isn't any fun at all.
Yeah, because that might mean you needed some actual strategy!
And everyone knows the only kind of war that's any fun at all is the kind where you can just gather your whole army into a blob and charge it straight at the enemy without having to think about anything!
-
Yeah. Many were placed to force your enemies to take a longer route to their destination.
ha and even better if that route also went via a bottleneck that would likely see their army become spread out 8)
-
Why don't we collect some data and see if your theory is right or not?
I am the lord of Shrine of Seeklander, probably the biggest fortress on dwilight. Here are the RCs I got after almost spending 3k gold.
40 95/50 inf - 15 recruits per day Size 3
50 95/50 cav - 5 recruits per day Size 2
55 80-5/75 SF - 3 recruits per day Size 2
From observing my region, for both inf and cav centers I got low def while the SF center had more balanced stats with low training.
The regions has 10700 population.
Ok, so that's one thing - it seems like they have better recruitment rates. I had a SF center size 2 in Ejarr Puutl - http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Ejarr_Puutl (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Ejarr_Puutl) (under Eridin) that I battled to get even one recruit out of. They were about 87/75 and training...I forget. I wager it produces more men than other regions.
-
I hear Nuzanki is pretty nice this time of year.
Hehe... Dunbor isn't planning to move... Especially not into the blight! ;)
-
Yeah, because that might mean you needed some actual strategy!
And everyone knows the only kind of war that's any fun at all is the kind where you can just gather your whole army into a blob and charge it straight at the enemy without having to think about anything!
Sorry, but there's no strategy you can employ that would change the situation in my example due to the nature of the map. The terrain and other variables make bypassing the choke points, if not impossible, then highly impractical. Armies have been lost in the mountains that are the only practical way around the choke points. Small raiding parties have been tried and they've been largely ineffectual. Some of the best generals in the game have banged their heads against that wall and come up empty.
BM does not reflect real life in this in any way. There's no way to ambush anyone with a smaller force and win. You can't sneak a small force past an enemy if they have active scouts. There are lots of things you can do in real life that make choke points by-passable. BM has a limited game engine that does not allow for such tactics. No amount of "split your army into smaller groups" is going to change that fact.
So I'll continue to say choke points(and adding strongholds to them) will continue to be less fun in BM than they seem on paper.
-
Sorry, but there's no strategy you can employ that would change the situation in my example due to the nature of the map. The terrain and other variables make bypassing the choke points, if not impossible, then highly impractical. Armies have been lost in the mountains that are the only practical way around the choke points. Small raiding parties have been tried and they've been largely ineffectual. Some of the best generals in the game have banged their heads against that wall and come up empty.
BM does not reflect real life in this in any way. There's no way to ambush anyone with a smaller force and win. You can't sneak a small force past an enemy if they have active scouts. There are lots of things you can do in real life that make choke points by-passable. BM has a limited game engine that does not allow for such tactics. No amount of "split your army into smaller groups" is going to change that fact.
So I'll continue to say choke points(and adding strongholds to them) will continue to be less fun in BM than they seem on paper.
Yes and no. It's true that, save for a mix of good and bad settings and army composition, an army can't beat a stronger one due to surprise. As for sneaking a small army past a larger army, I've done that various times. You can only get good odds of success if your army is able to do late-turn moves, though, and your enemy can't/doesn't.
That being said, I think that stronghold on chokepoints aren't a good idea, unless there is a viable (albeit less strategic) alternative available. Mountains, for example. However, if the choke point can't be bypassed by any means, such as because there's water on all sides, then that's not much fun (because we can't build boats in BM).
-
So I'll continue to say choke points(and adding strongholds to them) will continue to be less fun in BM than they seem on paper.
To a certain extent, this is true: putting a stronghold at, for instance, Yggdramir on Dwilight would cause some serious problems, because there really is no other way around.
However, first of all, there are very few chokepoints in BattleMaster for which this is actually true. Looking at Atamara, my first impulse was to put one at Mansbridge/Winwich. But it's not very far to go around through the mountains (and those are Atamara mountains; they barely slow you down at all). Then I looked at the Trawiy/Hidale bridge in the west. But there are mountains just a short trip to the east, and another bridge a short trip to the west.
Yes, it would require going around, and taking a little more time—but that's hardly a complete blockage.
Second of all, maps are much harder to change than code, and changes to code to make less direct forms of warfare more prominent and viable are likely to come well before maps with strongholds at chokepoints.