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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Foundation on April 27, 2012, 10:36:58 PM

Title: Question
Post by: Foundation on April 27, 2012, 10:36:58 PM
Who buys food at more than 10 gold per 100 bushels, and why?
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Zakilevo on April 27, 2012, 10:59:28 PM
Who buys food at more than 10 gold per 100 bushels, and why?

Many people. Because no one posts food at that price.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Indirik on April 28, 2012, 02:54:27 AM
20, because I'm lazy.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Vellos on April 28, 2012, 04:14:35 AM
And yet the market data indicates that prevailing prices are so much higher.

This is why we need transactional data.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Indirik on April 28, 2012, 04:27:37 AM
"transactional data"

Sounds way too modern.

Maybe stats for food sales should be regional, and not continent-wide. Then restrict them to traders, and make them spend hours to accumulate the data. You spend your hours, and learn about what happens in your area.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Penchant on April 28, 2012, 04:54:12 AM
"transactional data"

Sounds way too modern.

Maybe stats for food sales should be regional, and not continent-wide. Then restrict them to traders, and make them spend hours to accumulate the data. You spend your hours, and learn about what happens in your area.
Sounds like an interesting feature that could definently be useful. If someone is selling at 30 gold per 100 bushels but everyone else locally has been selling at 10 gold per 100 bushels you know they are ripping you off. If this was restricted to traders it could force lord-trader interaction for a better knowledge of the local market.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Vellos on April 28, 2012, 09:31:20 AM
"transactional data"

Sounds way too modern.

Maybe stats for food sales should be regional, and not continent-wide. Then restrict them to traders, and make them spend hours to accumulate the data. You spend your hours, and learn about what happens in your area.

Then call it "Market price" or "Sale price." Basically, the data currently provided are simply irrelevant; they reflect literally nothing. Continental average actual sale prices would be useful.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: fodder on April 28, 2012, 10:35:49 AM
but what is food worth? that is, in respect of how much income a rural should get vs a city/etc.. after food transaction
Title: Re: Question
Post by: D`Este on April 28, 2012, 10:51:16 AM
Food is worth 20 gold per 100 bushels, else it cost too much time to change prices ;P
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Solari on April 28, 2012, 12:34:39 PM
Food's value per 100b can be derived two ways.  First, as whatever the prevailing market price for food currently is.  Second, as 10g per 100b, which covers the transactional costs alone.  There are more than 275,000 bushels of food on Dwilight right now.  Surplus.  That means a bunch of knuckleheads are paying for food that has no market value.  Why?  As a rural subsidy program?
Title: Re: Question
Post by: vonGenf on April 28, 2012, 02:03:52 PM
That means a bunch of knuckleheads are paying for food that has no market value.  Why?  As a rural subsidy program?

“Only when the last tree has died, and the last river has been poisoned, and the last fish has been caught, will we realize that we cannot eat money.”
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Vellos on April 28, 2012, 11:49:00 PM
There are more than 275,000 bushels of food on Dwilight right now.  Surplus. 


Errr..... no?
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Eithad on April 29, 2012, 12:17:57 AM
Then call it "Market price" or "Sale price." Basically, the data currently provided are simply irrelevant; they reflect literally nothing. Continental average actual sale prices would be useful.

But local prices are whats relevant, whats the point of knowing theres cheap food to be hand somewhere when you can't reach it.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Vellos on April 29, 2012, 04:20:54 AM
But local prices are whats relevant, whats the point of knowing theres cheap food to be hand somewhere when you can't reach it.

They're seven days delayed anyways.

The data's purpose isn't to give you intel. It's to satisfy the curiosity of players, and provide them a general framework for understanding the balance of the game.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Chenier on April 29, 2012, 04:48:52 AM
Food's value per 100b can be derived two ways.  First, as whatever the prevailing market price for food currently is.  Second, as 10g per 100b, which covers the transactional costs alone.  There are more than 275,000 bushels of food on Dwilight right now.  Surplus.  That means a bunch of knuckleheads are paying for food that has no market value.  Why?  As a rural subsidy program?

Subsidy to rural regions, or rural realms.

Trade is not only economical, it's also very political.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Solari on April 29, 2012, 04:56:54 AM

Errr..... no?

Yes.  Every month, another 26,000+ surplus bushels are created.  There are 275,200 (as of a few days ago) bushels stored across the continent.  Storage is not the same as what's on the market. 
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Vellos on April 29, 2012, 08:51:30 AM
Yes.  Every month, another 26,000+ surplus bushels are created.  There are 275,200 (as of a few days ago) bushels stored across the continent.  Storage is not the same as what's on the market.

How do you know that?
Title: Re: Question
Post by: ^ban^ on April 29, 2012, 09:53:05 AM
How do you know that?

He's a member of the development team. How do you expect he knows it?
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Dante Silverfire on April 29, 2012, 09:56:06 AM
He's a member of the development team. How do you expect he knows it?

Magic?
Title: Re: Question
Post by: OFaolain on April 29, 2012, 10:36:59 AM
Magic?

Reading tea leaves?
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Sacha on April 29, 2012, 02:26:55 PM
The price is simply what people are willing to give for food. If all the biggest food producers collectively decide to cripple the food supply of the others and then jack up prices... you're looking at an interesting situation ;)
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Chenier on April 29, 2012, 03:51:33 PM
The price is simply what people are willing to give for food. If all the biggest food producers collectively decide to cripple the food supply of the others and then jack up prices... you're looking at an interesting situation ;)

The big food producers are far apart and probably don't talk to each other at all. Then there's all the minor food producers.

It's far more feasible that the buys team up to decide market prices than the sellers doing so.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Eithad on April 29, 2012, 04:03:39 PM
The big food producers are far apart and probably don't talk to each other at all. Then there's all the minor food producers.

It's far more feasible that the buys team up to decide market prices than the sellers doing so.

The buyers will starve, the sellers just make a bit less gold. I think we all know who has the bargaining power here.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Chenier on April 29, 2012, 04:31:18 PM
The buyers will starve, the sellers just make a bit less gold. I think we all know who has the bargaining power here.

Not really, because the buyers have friends and plenty of realms to chose to buy from.

For example, while D'Hara may not be self-sufficient in terms of food, the 'moot is as a whole. We trade with other realms because that's what we do more than out of need. But if they want to jack the prices of their food, then too bad for them, we'll just pass and buy elsewhere.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Feylonis on April 29, 2012, 04:48:59 PM
BUY FROM ASYLON!
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Chenier on April 29, 2012, 05:38:46 PM
BUY FROM ASYLON!

See?

Why should we be concerned when all sellers are so desperate to trade with us?
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Indirik on April 29, 2012, 05:40:13 PM
I'll buy from anyone willing to sell.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: OFaolain on April 29, 2012, 08:34:57 PM
I'll buy from anyone willing to sell.

I was selling, but it got bought up by Sergio at 18 gold/100.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: egamma on May 01, 2012, 05:18:49 PM
I'll buy from anyone willing to sell.

See? D'Hara too. In fact, we have 3 traders in three corners of the map, and a purchase agreement for the fourth.

I will admit to asking our traders to only buy when the food is below a certain price.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: D`Este on May 01, 2012, 05:27:31 PM
Hm...too bad rotting is introduced again. I have 11k bushels stored and only space for 6k.. And a new granary cost like 1240 gold..

Guess it's cheaper to buy food then a new granary.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Foundation on May 01, 2012, 08:10:34 PM
11k stored is not normal. -_-
Title: Re: Question
Post by: D`Este on May 01, 2012, 09:12:57 PM
It's only for 55 days with no rotting. With rotting it's for around 30-35 days, so it isn't that much....
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Dante Silverfire on May 01, 2012, 09:19:05 PM
11k stored is not normal. -_-

I have a constant negative deficit of food on Atamara, on the order of 150 bushels a day. (with 0 storage). If you could just sell some of this food to me on Atamara, I'd gladly buy all of it at 30 gold per 100 bushels.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Foundation on May 01, 2012, 10:23:06 PM
I know you can sell dat food at 50-65 gold/100 bushels, Dante! :P
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Dante Silverfire on May 01, 2012, 10:24:58 PM
I know you can sell dat food at 50-65 gold/100 bushels, Dante! :P

Nope, I never sell food. I have one of the most difficult to feed cities on the continent. Not to mention, its made worse by my realm's situation.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Lorgan on May 01, 2012, 10:25:56 PM
I have a constant negative deficit of food on Atamara, on the order of 150 bushels a day. (with 0 storage). If you could just sell some of this food to me on Atamara, I'd gladly buy all of it at 30 gold per 100 bushels.

As long as you pay up front...
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Chenier on May 02, 2012, 12:06:55 AM
Hm...too bad rotting is introduced again. I have 11k bushels stored and only space for 6k.. And a new granary cost like 1240 gold..

Guess it's cheaper to buy food then a new granary.

Someone will have do help direct investment programs and food transfers to make sure everyone has as many granaries as possible, to minimize rot and costs.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Solari on May 02, 2012, 12:50:30 AM
Someone will have do help direct investment programs and food transfers to make sure everyone has as many granaries as possible, to minimize rot and costs.

Or we can fight wars and negotiate treaties over grain, the way the gods intended!
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Chenier on May 02, 2012, 01:09:23 AM
Or we can fight wars and negotiate treaties over grain, the way the gods intended!

I don't see how fighting wars would help our food safety.

War means gold in soldiers and recruitment centers instead of food and granaries.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Solari on May 02, 2012, 01:53:19 AM
I don't see how fighting wars would help our food safety.

Who said anything about helping food safety through war?  Quite the opposite: food safety is now a legitimate tactic once more.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Chenier on May 02, 2012, 02:23:21 AM
Who said anything about helping food safety through war?  Quite the opposite: food safety is now a legitimate tactic once more.

How so? We can't go steal other people's food anymore (or have others steal other peoples' food to sell it to us).
Title: Re: Question
Post by: egamma on May 02, 2012, 07:43:55 AM
Or we can fight wars and negotiate treaties over grain, the way the gods intended!

So, we have your promise that you're going to work on New Diplomacy for 20 hours a week?

    :)    :D    ;D     
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Feylonis on May 02, 2012, 11:14:06 AM
I present to you...

FoodMaster!
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Charles on May 02, 2012, 10:19:30 PM
With respect to the rot, I had messages saying that some food had to be burnt because of rot.  The message included a statement saying it was not yet in effect, but are those numbers close to accurate?  If so, rot will happen to all food, but in greater numbers for food not stored in a granary?  I have space for 6000 bushels, and have slightly more than 2000.  I thought I would not have any rot.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Telrunya on May 02, 2012, 10:37:48 PM
From the Trader's Feedback topic:

Quote
1% is correct. Over storage limit, it depends on the season, but is on average twice as high.

Numbers are subject to further tweaking.

There's indeed currently a 1% rot when you're under your storage limit. When you're over your limit the percentage will be higher.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Solari on May 02, 2012, 11:40:21 PM
How so? We can't go steal other people's food anymore (or have others steal other peoples' food to sell it to us).

LOL steal food.  I think you meant to say burn.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Chenier on May 03, 2012, 12:02:36 AM
LOL steal food.  I think you meant to say burn.

No, I mean steal.

You can't sell burnt food, but you could sell stolen food...
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Anaris on May 03, 2012, 12:05:19 AM
No, I mean steal.

You can't sell burnt food, but you could sell stolen food...

And Solari meant, "How do you expect to steal food when you have no caravans?"
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Penchant on May 03, 2012, 12:20:09 AM
And Solari meant, "How do you expect to steal food when you have no caravans?"
Chenier said that indirectly if you read what Solaria quoted.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Anaris on May 03, 2012, 12:22:34 AM
Chenier said that indirectly if you read what Solaria quoted.

He said he'd have other people steal it. But they don't have caravans, either. Nobody does. Looting food is impossible for the time being.

We do have some plans to change that, but they'll depend on how things go over the next few months.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Penchant on May 03, 2012, 12:28:31 AM
How so? We can't go steal other people's food anymore (or have others steal other peoples' food to sell it to us).

The key word was can't as in he can't because there are no caravans like you said. Hope I am not too annoying, just trying to point out that.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Anaris on May 03, 2012, 12:29:48 AM

The key word was can't as in he can't because there are no caravans like you said. Hope I am not too annoying, just trying to point out that.

Oh. Duh. Thanks, you're right ;D
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Lorgan on May 03, 2012, 12:38:22 AM
Well... actually...

Quote
Looting Activity   (17 days ago)
message to all nobles of Luria Nova
Someone from our realm has plundered Nuas (Grand Duchy of Fissoa), stealing food from the grain stores.


Report from Eddard Huntington   (17 days ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (21 recipients)
"Your men take 4 in gold and valuables from the people of Nuas.
 Production in this region falls by 4% to 51%.
 Your men steal 73 bushels of food from the local grain stores and send it towards your home region, Grodno.
 3 local peasants were killed by your men."

Eddard Huntington
Margrave of Grodno

I'm not sure if it actually works yet, but the reports say it does at least. :)
Title: Re: Question
Post by: egamma on May 03, 2012, 01:29:53 AM
Well... actually...

I'm not sure if it actually works yet, but the reports say it does at least. :)

The bushels either went to the region of the one doing the looting, or you have some really fat soldiers now.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Charles on May 03, 2012, 03:06:43 AM
From the Trader's Feedback topic:

There's indeed currently a 1% rot when you're under your storage limit. When you're over your limit the percentage will be higher.
That's annoying.  But I suppose no food last forever so it is a realistic aspect.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Chenier on May 03, 2012, 03:13:14 AM

The key word was can't as in he can't because there are no caravans like you said. Hope I am not too annoying, just trying to point out that.

I did originally mention that it was no longer possible to do it, therefore that food wasn't as much as a motivator as it could once be.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Solari on May 03, 2012, 12:52:19 PM
I did originally mention that it was no longer possible to do it, therefore that food wasn't as much as a motivator as it could once be.

Why would anyone only consider stealing food to be effective?  For D'Hara's circumstances?  Sure, makes sense.  For anyone not running a deficit?  Burn every field you come across.  While it's true that stealing grain both benefits you and harms your foe, too many people think about things in that order only.  Sometimes, it's better to hurt your foe first and last.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Chenier on May 03, 2012, 01:18:46 PM
Why would anyone only consider stealing food to be effective?  For D'Hara's circumstances?  Sure, makes sense.  For anyone not running a deficit?  Burn every field you come across.  While it's true that stealing grain both benefits you and harms your foe, too many people think about things in that order only.  Sometimes, it's better to hurt your foe first and last.

Because you can then sell the food you stole. To D'Hara, of course. :P

Then you have gold to steal some more!

Seems like it's now being automatically done, though. A change I was not aware of.