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BattleMaster => Locals => East Island => Topic started by: Indirik on May 26, 2012, 03:35:17 PM
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(For those of you wondering, I did not lock the other thread.)
With the death of Fontan imminent, I have to admit to being both happy and sad. It is too bad that another of the original realms is dying. But then again, it's about time. When I was in Fontan last year, they were the sorriest, most pathetic realm I had ever seen. Dead quiet, full of angry and bitter characters who had walled themselves off from the world.
Fontan could have been saved. Maybe something useful will be created where it used to be.
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The only real difference between your analysis of Fontan last year and mine of them in 2008-9 when I was last there is the "dead silent" part (there was quite a lot of talk then, much of it recriminations, and most of the rest arguments attempting to convince the leadership to stop relying on the same strategies that consistently failed).
I say good riddance. The realm chose its own path a long time ago, was told repeatedly that it would lead to death, and has been walking it with dogged head-down determination ever since, despite all warnings and evidence of peril.
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They just failed to adapt. Sirion turned into an economic socialist state to survive. I wonder where their nobles will go.
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I am (cautiously) awaiting a mass-immigration to nivemus. Currently we have enough negativity flying around from ex-fontanese and their aurvandil buddies, and I am not really enthusiastic of having a new swarm of them in the realm. Will try to pick out the interesting ones and leave the rest for the colonies :)
Not sure to which extent we can "choose" nobles though since they can join as much as they want... (unless we ban them, i suppose :) )
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I never understood the obsession with fighting Sirion no matter what. Personally I like the Elves: they fight a clean war and those of their nobles I've interacted with have seemed much more characteristic of what Fontan should have been than many of those my characters have fought alongside.
It would have been nice if we could have mounted a valiant last-ditch defence of a well-defended city: something epic to underline the tragedy of Fontan's fall. Instead I'm expecting a fairly anaemic battle or two and the majority of nobles slipping away into the darkness.
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I am (cautiously) awaiting a mass-immigration to nivemus. Currently we have enough negativity flying around from ex-fontanese and their aurvandil buddies, and I am not really enthusiastic of having a new swarm of them in the realm. Will try to pick out the interesting ones and leave the rest for the colonies :)
Not sure to which extent we can "choose" nobles though since they can join as much as they want... (unless we ban them, i suppose :) )
Neji does not intend to allow Gabriella anywhere near Nivemus, and the same goes for all of the Flow priests. Other than that, not much 'choosing' will be going on.
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That Brock character seems pretty evil.
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That Brock character seems pretty evil.
Obviously we are not saying all Fontanese are evil(even though Neji knows Gabriella is). We are allied with Fontan and why would we ally with a bunch of evil people? We are just saying certain groups will not be allowed in Nivemus(probably those who have significant war crimes against Sirion and the Flow).
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why would we ally with a bunch of evil people?
Same reason everyone else does. To fight someone you consider a larger threat.
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Same reason everyone else does. To fight someone you consider a larger threat.
Considering we didn't do that, that's obviously not the case...
Edit: Besides, why would we do that? We have the most powerful realm on the continent on our side. ;D
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Well, you didn't really get the chance to, did you? Your ally's virtually dead, in large part because nobody helped them. Not even their ally.
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Well, you didn't really get the chance to, did you? Your ally's virtually dead, in large part because nobody helped them. Not even their ally.
We considered helping them, but had Nivemus helped Fontan we would have just been clobbered by Perdan/Westmoor/Caligus. Besides, when the war started, we were still around 4 regions short of finishing our expansion and had fewer nobles than we had now, and our infrastructure was weaker.
It would have been Nivemus and Fontan(combined maybe 30K CS, and Fontan couldn't sustain that original 20K so less from there on out) against the Central Alliance(around 60K CS). We would have been a token force and not much else.
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Considering we didn't do that, that's obviously not the case...
Edit: Besides, why would we do that? We have the most powerful realm on the continent on our side. ;D
Most defensible, not most powerful. Significant difference. Especially with the new estate/tax system. Didn't a bunch of Sirion's regions suddenly become much less profitable?
In truth, all it'd take is a duke (or the lords of several key regions) seceding or joining a neighboring realm and suddenly Sirion has a huge gap in its armor.
It's funny though, for as much as Sirion tries to portray others as evil/dishonorable, they seem to forget that the ganged-up war against them was due to them trying to sell out other realms (including Westmoor) out to Fontan.
...but I'm sure there was no legitimate reason for realms declaring war on Sirion when it was betraying its allies. :P
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Most defensible, not most powerful. Significant difference. Especially with the new estate/tax system. Didn't a bunch of Sirion's regions suddenly become much less profitable?
In truth, all it'd take is a duke (or the lords of several key regions) seceding or joining a neighboring realm and suddenly Sirion has a huge gap in its armor.
It's funny though, for as much as Sirion tries to portray others as evil/dishonorable, they seem to forget that the ganged-up war against them was due to them trying to sell out other realms (including Westmoor) out to Fontan.
...but I'm sure there was no legitimate reason for realms declaring war on Sirion when it was betraying its allies. :P
Westmoor an ally? Please. ::) And the reason all those realms went to war with Sirion is because they wanted to fight in a war. Not because of some(most likely fabricated) excuse that Sirion was selling them out.
Sirion is neck and neck with Perdan population and food wise, produces the most gold, has the most nobles, is the most defensible, and probably has the largest mobile army and your telling me they AREN'T the strongest?
And just about any realm would have major defensive problems if a whole duchy seceded from their nation. But I suppose all realms die eventually. Fontan was the top dog at one point too.
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The question then would be, why would Sirion's lords want to secede, when time and again it has been proven that no army can completely overcome Sirion's defenses?
EDIT: It's also good to note that Fontan's fall really began when Krimml seceeded. That was a funny episode.
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Westmoor an ally? Please. ::) And the reason all those realms went to war with Sirion is because they wanted to fight in a war. Not because of some(most likely fabricated) excuse that Sirion was selling them out.
Sirion is neck and neck with Perdan population and food wise, produces the most gold, has the most nobles, is the most defensible, and probably has the largest mobile army and your telling me they AREN'T the strongest?
And just about any realm would have major defensive problems if a whole duchy seceded from their nation. But I suppose all realms die eventually. Fontan was the top dog at one point too.
"All those realms" were already fighting Fontan along side Sirion and OR. Why, pray tell, would they "want a fight" when they were already in a war? Especially when gaining lands would have been easier/more feasible when warring Fontan?
Is it possible the evidence was fabricated? Yep. Is it likely? Well, from what I've heard, Sirion wasn't doing too hot at that point in the war. Need to bug Merewyn about that time period again.
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Fontan was probably the most powerful realm in all of EC's history. They broke through Sirion's defence and looted the southern regions. Fontan's Lions (can't remember the full name) was a mobile meat grinder... If they had Sirion's geography, I don't know it would have been possible for other realms to bring them down like what they did.
But like a wise man said, whichever survives is the strongest.
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Ibby/Aix certainly could have been the strongest if they didn't fall for Caligus's bait. Or if Ibby abandoned the outer/eastern shores of the lake/inner sea and fortified the bottlenecks they had. They'd have been smaller, but they would have certainly made Perdan and Caligus pay for every inch taken.
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Neji does not intend to allow Gabriella anywhere near Nivemus, and the same goes for all of the Flow priests. Other than that, not much 'choosing' will be going on.
Well Turgon for sure will do all he can to hinder all those with connections to Aurvandil, in addition to the priests. He has plenty enough IG knowledge of the connections with that realm (from both Nivemus and from his brother in Thalmarkin) to trust any of those guys. Allowing the standard-nobles of Fontan will be nice, but I'll be damned if I let any of those Aurvandil-people into Nivemus.
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EDIT: It's also good to note that Fontan's fall really began when Krimml seceeded. That was a funny episode.
Fontan's fall really began when the MoD decided it was the government and was at liberty to create new realms without discussing the matter with the whole realm. The Civil War, the birth of Westmoor and the inability of successive governments to make peace with Sirion all hung on that single decision.
That's not to say something else wouldn't have lead to a similar outcome :)
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Fontan was probably the most powerful realm in all of EC's history. They broke through Sirion's defence and looted the southern regions. Fontan's Lions (can't remember the full name) was a mobile meat grinder... If they had Sirion's geography, I don't know it would have been possible for other realms to bring them down like what they did.
But like a wise man said, whichever survives is the strongest.
Half the Lions left the game as a result of the Ogren-Sulliven feud, taking with them much of Fontan's offensive punch. The Manticores who replaced them (and more recently the Eagle Regiment) preserved the core spirit but failed to inculcate it in newer generations giving them a diminished impact on successive battles.
Likewise the carefully-planned irregular warfare operations Moira ran seem to have fallen by the wayside when I left the game, and on returning I found nothing more than thrill-seeking night blades and quarrelsome, uncoordinated priests. If instead of using the flashy options they'd concentrated on economic warfare and peaceful mass conversions to undermine region control the long-term impact would have been much greater ::)
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Well Turgon for sure will do all he can to hinder all those with connections to Aurvandil, in addition to the priests. He has plenty enough IG knowledge of the connections with that realm (from both Nivemus and from his brother in Thalmarkin) to trust any of those guys. Allowing the standard-nobles of Fontan will be nice, but I'll be damned if I let any of those Aurvandil-people into Nivemus.
Brigdha's probably going to try and salvage some good from the Flow so something of Fontan remains, but given what the Kinseys have done to its reputation I'm fairly resigned to failure.
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Hm, if she will try that inside Sirion she had better be quite silent about it... Flow is not of high value in sirion ;) (and neither for nivemus, where all (well, most at least...) of the leaders were in Sirion for a long long time)
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Brigdha's probably going to try and salvage some good from the Flow so something of Fontan remains, but given what the Kinseys have done to its reputation I'm fairly resigned to failure.
You're welcome. ;)
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I seem to specialise in salvaging the unsalvageable ::)
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To clarify:
Half (or more) of the Lions were Hungarians, who were personally loyal to Sulliven, always logged in around the same time as him, supported him in everything he did, and seemed to believe that he should be effectively Dictator-For-Life of Fontan. (Though bizarrely, they weren't alone in that last part.)
When Sulliven was reported to the Titans for threatening to report Ogren to the Titans, he was given a private warning. He was so furious about this (from what I recall at the time, he basically couldn't deal with the fact that anyone in power over him had dared to criticize him, but I may be applying bias retroactively), he left the game. The clique of Hungarians who followed him left at the same time.
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The clique of Hungarians who followed him left at the same time.
And by "at the same time" he means "within the space of a few minutes."
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"All those realms" were already fighting Fontan along side Sirion and OR. Why, pray tell, would they "want a fight" when they were already in a war? Especially when gaining lands would have been easier/more feasible when warring Fontan?
Is it possible the evidence was fabricated? Yep. Is it likely? Well, from what I've heard, Sirion wasn't doing too hot at that point in the war. Need to bug Merewyn about that time period again.
Fontan offered them a peace treaty that gave them Westmoor. They took the treaty. Then, once Westmoor was formed and situated, they sent their armies up to Sirion for war. Why because: 1. They wanted war and 2. there was that ridiculous 'if you aren't in a war, soldiers start bickering, regions affected blah blah blah'. Sirion was losing the war(well, they had the war stalemated). So Perdan, Caligus, OI, and Westmoor picked the realm that already had a bunch of enemies so they didn't have to suffer the demoralization effect.
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Fontan offered them a peace treaty that gave them Westmoor. They took the treaty. Then, once Westmoor was formed and situated, they sent their armies up to Sirion for war.
I don't know much about the rest of your statement, but I know this part is wrong. Why? Because Westmoor was formed by secession from Perdan. I was there, I should know.
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I don't know much about the rest of your statement, but I know this part is wrong. Why? Because Westmoor was formed by secession from Perdan. I was there, I should know.
Oh was that it? I did feel kind of weird saying that. I was about to check the wiki to check my sources... Either way, they took some sort of peace treaty, dropped out, came back in because they didn't want the soldiers complaining thing to hurt them, so picked an easy target in Sirion.
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Well at least that stupid demoralization thing is gone now. Wait is it gone?
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Well at least that stupid demoralization thing is gone now. Wait is it gone?
Yes. They are planning on using other methods to make us kill each other.
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You people have some really weird, revisionist views of history.
Sirion's proposal to have Westmoor betray Fontan was not made up, or propaganda, or anything of the sort. The ruler that took over after Doc Primus left (I forget his name, some long-time Sirionites probably remember) made a proposal to Westmoor that they betray their peace treaty with Fontan and take some Fontan lands. This is not made up. It is well-known fact.
That is one reason Perdan joined the war against Sirion. We were also impressed at Fontan's honorable dealings with us during the war, their willingness to let the Westmoor duchy go without endless bitterness and squabbling, and their friendship with Westmoor. Add all that on to the fact that we *still* owed Sirion a few black eyes, and wanted to bust them up, and you have all the reasons you need for war.
Perdan was not suffering from TMP penalties at the time. (Was there even TMP in the game back then?) We wanted a war to fight, and we had every legitimate reason you can ask for to want to fight Sirion.
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You people have some really weird, revisionist views of history.
Sirion's proposal to have Westmoor betray Fontan was not made up, or propaganda, or anything of the sort. The ruler that took over after Doc Primus left (I forget his name, some long-time Sirionites probably remember) made a proposal to Westmoor that they betray their peace treaty with Fontan and take some Fontan lands. This is not made up. It is well-known fact.
That is one reason Perdan joined the war against Sirion. We were also impressed at Fontan's honorable dealings with us during the war, their willingness to let the Westmoor duchy go without endless bitterness and squabbling, and their friendship with Westmoor. Add all that on to the fact that we *still* owed Sirion a few black eyes, and wanted to bust them up, and you have all the reasons you need for war.
Perdan was not suffering from TMP penalties at the time. (Was there even TMP in the game back then?) We wanted a war to fight, and we had every legitimate reason you can ask for to want to fight Sirion.
Seems Neji drunk the Sirion propaganda Kool-Aid then. And Handow was his name.
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This is why you should never try to make dirty deals behind people's back. Handow was an idiot at the time. I don't know what he was afraid of :p.
I think things are side tracking too much. We should go back to talking about the demise of Fontan or should lock this thread.
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Well there's not really much to say. Fontan was given a second chance at life by finding a way to both abandon the Sultanate to its fate under the fiction that Sirion would at least offer the Sultan a chance to discuss terms. We basically surrendered the Duchy of Karbala to salve our misplaced sense of honour.
If Rhidhana could have convinced the Assembly to just dump the elf-hating idiots she would and the war with Westmoor probably wouldn't have happened - or at least it wouldn't have been Fontan which started it.
But hey, when you've been at war for 3+ OOC years your sense of perspective is bound to be screwed.
It'll be interesting to see how many of the older Fontan families will stay in EC and where they mostly settle.
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Goodbye Fontan! :'( From my character Brock Ketchum, Fontan Banker. Or should be known as next to the last Fontan Banker.
Yes, Fontan demise is due to internal as well as external conflicts. The realm Diplomacy quite hazy and there are few allies left. Especially after Asena demise and Westmoor pulling out of war against Sirion. Fontan allied with Ibladesh, does not bring Fontan any Good Cookies with Caligus and Perdan ;D
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The realm Diplomacy quite hazy and there are few allies left. Especially after Asena demise and Westmoor pulling out of war against Sirion. Fontan allied with Ibladesh, does not bring Fontan any Good Cookies with Caligus and Perdan ;D
I tried for a couple months to get Fontan to try making friends with *anyone*. But all I could get was reasons why they hated each of them. It was painfully obvious that the next war Fontan was in, they would be all on their own, and that they would be the weaker realm. Their ruler was completely inactive, and the Assembly never did anything. It's no surprise that things turned out the way they did. When I joined Fontan I was hopeful that we would be working to rebuild and retool the realm. Instead, everyone was burned out.
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When I joined Fontan I was hopeful that we would be working to rebuild and retool the realm. Instead, everyone was burned out.
Sums it up pretty well. Those of us who knew what had to be done to rebuild the infrastructure just got on with the job but the rest of the realm went to pieces. Under Sangah and Lyzekiel we had months where there was no meaningful discussion in the MoD and no orders being issued to marshals so discipline evaporated. And neither had any grasp of geopolitics: we could easily have sent a small force of advisors north to aid Nivemus and speed their expansion: priests to quell dissent; diplomats to boost their popularity and heroes to tell a few tales. Instead we did nothing.
There was also good money to be had selling food to Ashforth which our traders ignored and the usual problems with monsters and undead along Sirion's southern borders that could have mended fences. I don't think it's coincidental that my characters are welcome in both realms as they seem to have been the only Fontanese who made an effort to visit either on anything like a regular basis or even to exchange pleasantries with their respective governments.
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You people have some really weird, revisionist views of history.
Sirion's proposal to have Westmoor betray Fontan was not made up, or propaganda, or anything of the sort. The ruler that took over after Doc Primus left (I forget his name, some long-time Sirionites probably remember) made a proposal to Westmoor that they betray their peace treaty with Fontan and take some Fontan lands. This is not made up. It is well-known fact.
That is one reason Perdan joined the war against Sirion. We were also impressed at Fontan's honorable dealings with us during the war, their willingness to let the Westmoor duchy go without endless bitterness and squabbling, and their friendship with Westmoor. Add all that on to the fact that we *still* owed Sirion a few black eyes, and wanted to bust them up, and you have all the reasons you need for war.
Perdan was not suffering from TMP penalties at the time. (Was there even TMP in the game back then?) We wanted a war to fight, and we had every legitimate reason you can ask for to want to fight Sirion.
Wait, there is one point which is not completely correct. At a certain time Sirion Perdan Caligus Westmoor and OR were at war against Fontan/SoA. Discussions for a peace were becoming increasingly lengthy mostly because of Sirion's stubborness due to two points: 1) Perdan Caligus and Westmoor didn't care about the fate of OR and did not want to include them in the treaty, where Sirion pushed for it. 2) Sirion requests for itself, but mostly for OR, were quite unreasonable given the performances in the war and the current geopolitical scenario, but were motivated mostly by the bitterness for having lost a lot.
It was at that moment that Sirion tried to "sell" his "ally" (where really quotes means we allied just to fight together more than else) Westmoor to Fontan, trying to somehow come out with a proposal which would allow SoA to remain large but without shrinking OR (mainly, redeploy SoA and Fontan within Westmoor or something like that).
This proposal was forwarded by Zadek to Westmoor Caligus and Perdan, which led them rightfully to super anger and convinced them to dump Sirion and OR entirely and make their own separate peace.
After a considerable amount of time (real life months at least), Westmoor suddenly decided they wanted to join the war against Sirion but, instead of trying to base such a decision on the old attempt by Sirion to sell them, they went all the way through crazy and super artificial claims (like the fact Sirion kidnapped their old king. wtf?) which basically revealed the fact they were being hit by TMP and were looking for some kind of war - possibly one which would not put them at stake. Only after a bit of time - and some changes in rulership - Westmoor more or less cohesively aligned behind the more reasonable claim of kicking Sirion's nuts because of their past behaviour while helping Fontan with which they had built an alliance over time. Perdan then backed them up as Indirik said. During all this time it was indeed Handow the ruler of Sirion, as Uzamaki said.
Some people in Sirion really never forgive Westmoor for what they did, since from what transpired publicly, they went to war without any reason and opened up the 5v1 war against Sirion.
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I seem to vaguely recall something about an RPd kidnapping, now that you mention it. I don't recall how exactly it fit in. That was several years ago.
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Now that I think back on it, I might've been around (albeit in larval form) when Westmoor declared war on Sirion.
From most hazy memory the internal justification was supporting our allies Fontan and Asena ...if so that turned out well...
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Nope. Joined under Micna (several days from each other), so Westmoor had been at war with Sirion for at least 2 months by that point, if not longer.