BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Helpline => Newbie Board => Topic started by: Kmap on May 29, 2012, 03:15:43 PM
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Hi,
One of my characters is a Mentor, and recently when I adressed a newbie as Lord, I was informed that the title was reserved for the 'Lords of the realm' and instead I address them as 'Sir', but then I replied informing them that the title 'Sir' is supposed to be used only if the character has earned it... and unless that must be refrained from being used.
I wish to know what is generally followed and what I must have used. :)
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"Sir" or "Lady" is prefixed to the names of people who have donated. It has no in-game significance.
Acceptable modes of address vary from realm to realm. Generally, "Sir" or "Dame" is acceptable for nobles without any particular position, and nobles with a position should be addressed by their title.
Then there's also the matter of "your Majesty" for monarchs, "your Grace" for Dukes, and other such modes of address, which, again, vary widely.
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I use "Lord" for any male noble without a position. I only use "Sir" if they've donated. Occasionally someone objects to being called a Lord if they're not a region lord, so I refer to them as "Knight" instead. Not sure what I'd call a male noble without an estate if they object to being called Lord.
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I use "Lord" for any male noble without a position. I only use "Sir" if they've donated. Occasionally someone objects to being called a Lord if they're not a region lord, so I refer to them as "Knight" instead. Not sure what I'd call a male noble without an estate if they object to being called Lord.
"Knight" isn't generally appropriate as a prefixed title. The prefixed title you use for a knight is "Sir". That's...just the way it really was. (Unless someone can find me some countervailing evidence...)
Like I said before, donation has no real IC significance, so I don't feel it's appropriate to make an IC distinction between people who have donated and people who haven't.
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What's the point of having the title, then? It's a purely IG reward. If you don't refer to it IG, then what's the point?
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What's the point of having the title, then? It's a purely IG reward. If you don't refer to it IG, then what's the point?
IG != IC.
It's something for us players to notice.
And, again: it makes absolutely no sense to not call a Knight named Kepler "Sir Kepler" just because of something that has absolutely no bearing on the game itself.
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If it's not IC, then why are my IC messages signed as Sir Velax de Vere? That fact my letters are signed that way implies it's my IC title.
Meh. You do your way of doing things, I'll do mine. Worked perfectly fine for me so far.
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If it's not IC, then why are my IC messages signed as Sir Velax de Vere? Meh. You do your way of doing things, I'll do mine. Worked perfectly fine for me so far.
I shall, and I shall not hinder you from doing things your way :)
I simply wished to inform you that the way you do things makes no sense ;D
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Plenty of things in this game make no sense from a historical point of view, but we roll with them both IC and OOC. This is one of them, as far as I'm concerned.
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The Sir and Lady titles given by the game are simply a nod of appreciation from Tom. It is a way to give some recognition to the people who have donated some of their own cash to help keep the game going. It is *not* any form of IC/IG exclusive title for donors only. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone claim that it is.
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The game says some characters have the title Sir. So my characters address them as Sir. It really is that simple. You want to call every noble Sir, go right ahead. I really don't care. I just tried to explain what my line of reasoning is, not force it on everyone else. I'm really not sure where the difficulty in understanding is here.
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I used to do things like Velax, until I took peer pressure to the.
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I used to do things like Velax, until I took peer pressure to the.
Did you miss the word "knee"?
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Did you miss the word "knee"?
Well, he took an arrow to it; obviously it's not working properly now.
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Aren't also Heros referred to as 'Sir'??
And the newbie has not yet pledged an Oath of Flealty (or whatever it is called these days...(under the new system...)), and doesn't yet command an estate, so he isn't exactly a knight either... :D
Now what should I have used? ;D
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Aren't also Heros refered to as 'Sir'??
Not particularly. At least, nowhere that I've ever seen.
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And the newbie has not yet pledged an Oath of Flealty (or whatever it is called these days...(under the new system...)), and doesn't yet command an estate, so he isn't exactly a knight either... :D
Now what should I have used? ;D
Sir and Lady are good generic titles that can be used for any noble who does not have a lordship or council position.
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Right Thanks! :)
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And the newbie has not yet pledged an Oath of Flealty (or whatever it is called these days...(under the new system...)), and doesn't yet command an estate, so he isn't exactly a knight either... :D
Now what should I have used? ;D
"Freeze you Rebel Scum!"
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I use "Lord" for any male noble without a position.
I also tend to use use Lord for someone whom it would be inappropriate to call simply "Sir", but who either has no current specific titles, or has so many title that it gets confusing to choose which title to use to address them. Elders of religions other than my own, for example.
The "proper" title for regional lords is baron or count or whichever is attached to their region, I don't think "Lord" is usually seen as strictly attached to the region lords.
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Aren't also Heros referred to as 'Sir'??
And the newbie has not yet pledged an Oath of Flealty (or whatever it is called these days...(under the new system...)), and doesn't yet command an estate, so he isn't exactly a knight either... :D
Now what should I have used? ;D
In my view, the one title that I can use for just about anyone (but especially people who are just starting) is "Noble". They are most definitely a noble, regardless of whatever else they may be, especially the people who are just starting out without any titles (except the debated upon "Sir, perhaps), while at the same time it can also be referring to the nature of the person (a compliment).
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In my view, the one title that I can use for just about anyone (but especially people who are just starting) is "Noble". They are most definitely a noble, regardless of whatever else they may be, especially the people who are just starting out without any titles (except the debated upon "Sir, perhaps), while at the same time it can also be referring to the nature of the person (a compliment).
But, again, I doubt very strongly that anyone would have written, "Noble Kepler Dolohov, I disagree with everything you have said." It's just not a title of the sort that is used as a prefix.
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... you don't go around calling an advy sir.. even if it's there. because they ain't nobles.
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... you don't go around calling an advy sir.. even if it's there. because they ain't nobles.
Yep they are just a commoner. Call them freeman.
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But, again, I doubt very strongly that anyone would have written, "Noble Kepler Dolohov, I disagree with everything you have said." It's just not a title of the sort that is used as a prefix.
If we're going for realistic, howcome we haven't seen any links yet?
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If we're going for realistic, howcome we haven't seen any links yet?
Because I'm a medieval hobbyist, not a medieval scholar, and I'm going off an understanding based on a lifetime of relevant fiction and growing up with a medievalist, rather than any actual research.
However, I believe if you asked any of the actual medieval scholars on the board, they'd tell you the same thing, and be able to cite sources.
(At least, to the extent that one can cite sources to support, "This wasn't something that people did." That's asking to prove a negative.)
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Flowchart? Here's what I use, in general
Q: Is he/she of noble blood?
N: Refer to as Freeman or without title for outlaws/lackeys
Q: Does he/she have a Lordly estate?
N: Sir or Lady will do. I use Dame only for unfamiliar people. No difference between knights with or without estates (~Imperial Knights)
Y: Lord or Lady. If a Lord yourself and of lower esteem (Viscount or Count), use more appriopriate title if appliccable, e.g. Margrave/Earl/Count.
If you are of higher standing (Ruler, Duke of Councillor) always use Lord. They are beneath your standing, their quarrels/ranking do not concern you.
Q: Is he/she a Duke or Duchess?
A: Use Your Grace in private conversation/letters, Duke in public messaging. Depends on relationship (I feel Duke is less personal)
Q: Councillor?
A: Use council title in the context of the relevant position. E.g. General when discussing military matters, Banker for food/economy.
Also on formal occasions, and in the eyes of their peers
Q: Ruler?
A: Unless personal, use correct title in heading, Y.M. in text. First time adressing, use the surname and realm, e.g. King Kepler of Keplerstan
Basically, if you address someone higher in the chain, make clear that you understand the exact position of your contact to avoid insulting them. If you address someone beneath your standing, it's of less importance as long as you are formally right.
One thing that always bothers me, though, are the suffixes characters bear even after they have lost a position. For instance 'Kepler Dolohov (Duke), Knight of Keplerville'. I try to decide on the context there. I wouldn't use Your Grace for (foreign)ex-Dukes, but I would use Lord, even if they have no Lordly estate. Royal Lord sometimes for ex-Rulers.
Does this make any sense? Of course many of this is highly dependant on the realm you play in.
Also: equally interesting is the way you end a letter. I've always liked Vellos' "Pleasant days and pleasant nights" (or something? tried looking it up, but I don't have any letters left). I always find it rude not to have anything between the signature and the body of text, certainly for foreign rulers. I can't imagine they simply sent tweets to each other like that - certainly not on Dwi :) Though I have sinned against this principle myself.
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Also: equally interesting is the way you end a letter. I've always liked Vellos' "Pleasant days and pleasant nights" (or something? tried looking it up, but I don't have any letters left). I always find it rude not to have anything between the signature and the body of text, certainly for foreign rulers. I can't imagine they simply sent tweets to each other like that - certainly not on Dwi :) Though I have sinned against this principle myself.
(I think it's "Long Days and Pleasant Nights" and its actually from the Triunist faith... I actually haven't paid attention to if he has still been using it since he converted. But OOC I think its from some book series or something.)
I really enjoy the sign-offs aspect as well. It is perhaps one of the most dynamic parts of letter writing and can tell you a whole lot about someone.
"Respectfully," is always good for nobles above you and especially ones you do not know. "Yours," or "Respectfully Yours," for those close friends. And then I usually always try to come up with a standard sign-off for each of my characters.
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One thing that always bothers me, though, are the suffixes characters bear even after they have lost a position. For instance 'Kepler Dolohov (Duke), Knight of Keplerville'. I try to decide on the context there. I wouldn't use Your Grace for (foreign)ex-Dukes, but I would use Lord, even if they have no Lordly estate. Royal Lord sometimes for ex-Rulers.
Why do Dukes keep that title when they're not Dukes anymore? And does that still happen with the new system?
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Why do Dukes keep that title when they're not Dukes anymore? And does that still happen with the new system?
Looks like it does. More surprisingly, it carried over between realms as well
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Why do Dukes keep that title when they're not Dukes anymore? And does that still happen with the new system?
That's not a title, it's their rank.
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And then I usually always try to come up with a standard sign-off for each of my characters.
This is particularly annoying if you have to communicate with them a lot of time.
As far as "Noble" goes, I address any noble new to the realm without an estate as "Noble X" in private letters. Granted, I'm a Duke, so I could call them anything I wanted and get away with it, but hey. If they aren't a knight of a region, I don't consider them a knight for "sir"
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I really enjoy the sign-offs aspect as well. It is perhaps one of the most dynamic parts of letter writing and can tell you a whole lot about someone.
"Respectfully," is always good for nobles above you and especially ones you do not know. "Yours," or "Respectfully Yours," for those close friends. And then I usually always try to come up with a standard sign-off for each of my characters.
George Washington of all people was actually famous for this; you can tell the mood of any given letter he'd written by his sign-off. You can even see the gradual decline of his friendship with Henry Knox that way without even perusing the contents. Kinda off-topic but I think it's cool that you kinda write the same way.
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This is particularly annoying if you have to communicate with them a lot of time.
What? Really? Why?
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What? Really? Why?
Its only Perth's that I have an issue with. Makes you sound to just and powerful. How am I supposed to feel good talking to a King who knows he has more power than me?
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Its only Perth's that I have an issue with.
>:(
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How come noone has posted this? [[RP Primer]]
Edit: I see the wiki link is not working. This, then:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/RP_Primer
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How come noone has posted this? [[RP Primer]]
Edit: I see the wiki link is not working. This, then:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/RP_Primer
I had completely forgotten it had existed. While I was well aware of its edicts, that is very good to read again. It is time for my Duke to start using the "Royal We" in a Republic. Let's see how long he can get away with it. (I'm guessing a long time, or at least until Kinsey sees it)
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Wow, it's been so long I'm not toally sure I've read it all. Thanks! Looks like my environment in the game is quite easy on the titulature, too easy perhaps.
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Newbies are still technically knights, they're just unlanded, so "Sir" or "Dame" should be the proper form of address. The rest is in that RP primer, which is a great resource that everyone should read.
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Ladies and Gentlemen, allow me to add some clarification using things I have found useful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_and_noble_ranks
The Sir and Lady titles donors get I typically regard from an IC perspective as membership in a Knightly Order, which would allow the prefix of Sir or Lady, but wouldn't be the proper form of address if they hold a higher title (like a lordship)
Religious titles are also easy. Higher level elders "your eminence" works, aka someone on the same level as a cardinal. For someone on the same level as a Bishop "Your grace" is appropriate. For someone on level with the pope you can't go wrong with "your holiness" or "holy father/mother"