BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: House Talratheon on June 23, 2012, 12:43:50 PM
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Title: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
Summary: Paraphernalia nobles whom have units may recruit for the purpose of minimally repairing his unit's armor and weapons in the field and during travel, however not as extensively as if a noble were to visit a city to get it all repaired.
Details: Simply recruit blacksmith paraphernalia with your unit, and their sole purpose as they are paid is to mend and repair weapons and armor in the field to give units the ability to stay in the field longer considering the noble in question has the gold to pay him. However unlike healer units and scouts the black smith would demand a higher sum of gold considering how much repairing he's done that week, however he will not able to repair all your damage merely the minimal amount due to his own lack of supplies.
Benefits: Keeps fighting units in the field longer without the requirements of visiting cities just to meet repairs, works in conjunction as an additional gold sink for nobles able and or willing to afford the services of a blacksmith. Would give more diversity to war, where as nobles requesting gold to afford services of blacksmiths to travel with their units.
Possible Exploits: None come to mind.
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There was a write-up someone did on the wiki, probably under the wish list page, as to why a portable smithy was completely unrealistic.
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There was a write-up someone did on the wiki, probably under the wish list page, as to why a portable smithy was completely unrealistic.
Thanks for the heads up but I read it and have a few arguments of my own.
In the text of the wiki: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Science_of_the_Smith
In Conclusion, minor repairs were often done in the field by smiths traveling with the army, but the kind of equipment repair that many are wishing about here simply cannot be done without reforging the weapon, which is a process takes too much time and resources for BattleMaster armies on the move to be able to handle.
However, if you don't mind your army staying in the region for a week or so, then by all means a full portable smithy would be technically if not historically possible, but the repairs that many in BM are wishing for with a portable smithy simply could not be done in the field in the timeframe that they want them to be done, and carrying one with you would slow an army down to the point of being unbearable to the players.
No offense to the wiki writer he has well founded arguments, but arguments while being that of an apprentice blacksmith in the 21 century as he stated making his testimony of a blacksmithing is as viable as a first year medical student of making a testimony on the consequential effects of asbestos in the lungs and it's long term enduring effects into the field of Oncology. And in his conclusion in this quote. "minor repairs were often done in the field by smiths traveling with the army"
Makes the concept viable.
Further more respectfully I wish to add quote from sites as well.
Military College, Air Force University
Source: http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/army/medieval_logistics.htm
Viewing military logistics of the Middle Ages by modern standards provides insight into today's Quartermaster functions. This study will compare some modern classes of supply - Class I (subsistence), Class II (clothing and individual equipment), Class III (petroleum, oils and lubricants), Class IV (construction materiel), Class V (ammunition), Class VI (personal demand items such as sundry packs), Class VII (major end items such as trucks and tanks), Class VIII (medical supplies) and Class IX (repair parts) - to the supply systems that dominated military campaigns in the Middle Ages, 1000 to 1400 AD. The logistical functions of manning, arming, fueling, fixing, sustaining and moving will overlay the comparisons.
Class IX parts were made and repairs performed by blacksmiths, leather workers and wood workers. Blacksmiths made such necessities as swords, arrowheads, lance tips, shield covers, metal armor and daggers. Many blacksmiths were employed in the general area of villages, castles and fortresses to allow the weapon orders to be easily filled. Blacksmiths traveled with the supply trains and were often employed by feudal lords or worked as "contractors" to paying customers.Their main purpose was to shoe horses, fix weapons and armor, and make items during sieges to supplement those lost or damaged.
Source: http://www.ehow.com/info_8338993_medieval-job-duties-blacksmiths.html
Blacksmiths were a common part of every military, responsible for outfitting an army as well as for the upkeep and repairs of weapons and armor after each battle. They were required to travel with a military during times of war and would find themselves stationed alongside militaries in castles or forts to service the equipment. Their noncombat value made them too valuable to risk during actual combat. However, they would have to grow accustomed to the harsh life of a soldier.
As you can see from the sources above there were many reason why a blacksmith would travel with an army and why they would travel with an army, sure they could repair "ALL" the damage but minor repairs he could take care of reducing perhaps 1-3% damage every turn as long as he was with and would charge you accordingly leaving you with a 40 gold bill within a week if your unit was large enough and warranted it.
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You are correlating "army" with a unit of 20-50 men, or so. I would bet that every minor knight who lead 50 men into battle did not travel with his own portable forge. Perhaps this could be some form of army paraphernalia, if army paraphernalia or supply depots ever got implemented but I don't see it being added as paraphernalia for individual nobles.
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Which is why it was suggested as a probable expensive paraphernalia to have as it's charges could add up to alot, and while it would serve as a minimal repair tool on the field it would always be more viable to eventually bite your pride and go back to a friendly city and repair rather than sit on a field for a week+ and let him charge you consistently as he repairs for you at the rate of 1-3% damage daily, not to mention equipment damage of that amount occurs from travelling.
And while I would never expect a nobleman to drag a personal forge around, a black smith with an apprentice or two surely would for the payment opportunities.
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A portable blacksmith can be substituted with a caravan carrying new equipment. It would again bring back the caravan concept.
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Perhaps this could be some form of army paraphernalia, if army paraphernalia or supply depots ever got implemented
Is this actually in the works at all? That would be awesome. You could have portable forges, camp followers, paymasters, sutlers...all paid for out of the army warchest. I like this idea.
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There was a write-up someone did on the wiki, probably under the wish list page, as to why a portable smithy was completely unrealistic.
And realism is still a shoddy excuse for denying something when talking about adding features to the game. It's partly the realism thinking that took the game into decline.
An paraphelia like this would be good even if it just meant you'd suffer 5% equipment damage in battle instead of 10% due to the smiths quick repairs before the equipment can suffer further. It doesn't need to be a "fix 20% equipment damage when ever you want to". Heck, if you've stayed in a region for a turn or two without moving maybe the smith would have time to make some extra repairs in the range of 1-5%.
Would something like that make the game better? I think so.
Is it realistic? Who honestly cares?
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Why care so much about realism when the game isn't a medieval simulator? Do you think it is realistic that our foods arrive in our regions instantly? or our units marching faster than any normal human being can possibly march?
I hear that equipment damage was to balance the game but that also made people less inclined to attack realms far away from their realms, which made long distance wars happen less. This game is Battlemaster. GMs should try to implement things to help the game have more battles not less.
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Is this actually in the works at all? That would be awesome. You could have portable forges, camp followers, paymasters, sutlers...all paid for out of the army warchest. I like this idea.
Some ideas have been tossed around, but no coding has been done, or will be done any time soon. But it will most likely not be anything like what you're thinking. We won't be adding camp followers, pay masters, or whatever sutlers are.
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This has been rejected before, most of the reasons are posted on the wiki, but the whole discussion had quite a bit more content.
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The idea of equipment damage is intentional, which combined with only being able to recruit from the capital, getting taxes in bonds and unit morale dropping while away from home means that one cannot simply walk into Mordor... I mean, keep waging offensives forever. There is the need to refit.
The rate of equipment damage could be simply diminished, or to be a possibility to have equipment that damages slower, but would that really improve the game? I suppose that is the main question.
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This has been rejected before, most of the reasons are posted on the wiki, but the whole discussion had quite a bit more content.
He quoted the wiki and explained his reasons why those reasons were completely unfounded. He is not advocating something to replace going to the city to refit. Merely something that will enable longer campaigns, increasing conflicts and making this game something more in line with its name.
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Long-distance warfare isn't exactly something that the game promotes. You're not supposed to be able to march to the other end of the island, stay on station for three weeks, then march home. Nor should you be able to sit inside an enemy realm for a month or two without having to go home. That may be fun for the realm doing it, but it would totally suck for the realm being occupied. The need for the attacker to leave and refit is one of the things that lets the defender catch their breath and regroup.
We all want war. Yes, we know that's what the game is about. It's one of the things the devs keep telling the players when they ask for more ways to completely avoid warfare. But we don't not have war because we can't march across the island to fight someone on the opposite side. We have war because people are not willing to fight their neighbors. Why not? Isn't that why we have neighbors?
If you want something like this to support long-distance warfare, I would suggest starting a new thread on the general discussion board to discuss whether or not long-distance warfare would be good or bad for the game in general. If you can convince Tom that allowing realms to fight a cross-island war, then there is a greater chance of something like this being added to support it.
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He quoted the wiki and explained his reasons why those reasons were completely unfounded. He is not advocating something to replace going to the city to refit. Merely something that will enable longer campaigns, increasing conflicts and making this game something more in line with its name.
Exactly, and to press to point forward brought up by the developers
There was a write-up someone did on the wiki, probably under the wish list page, as to why a portable smithy was completely unrealistic.
Viewing military logistics of the Middle Ages by modern standards provides insight into today's Quartermaster functions. This study will compare some modern classes of supply - Class I (subsistence), Class II (clothing and individual equipment), Class III (petroleum, oils and lubricants), Class IV (construction materiel), Class V (ammunition), Class VI (personal demand items such as sundry packs), Class VII (major end items such as trucks and tanks), Class VIII (medical supplies) and Class IX (repair parts) - to the supply systems that dominated military campaigns in the Middle Ages, 1000 to 1400 AD. The logistical functions of manning, arming, fueling, fixing, sustaining and moving will overlay the comparisons.
Quote
Class IX parts were made and repairs performed by blacksmiths, leather workers and wood workers. Blacksmiths made such necessities as swords, arrowheads, lance tips, shield covers, metal armor and daggers. Many blacksmiths were employed in the general area of villages, castles and fortresses to allow the weapon orders to be easily filled. Blacksmiths traveled with the supply trains and were often employed by feudal lords or worked as "contractors" to paying customers.Their main purpose was to shoe horses, fix weapons and armor, and make items during sieges to supplement those lost or damaged.
Refuted.
Next developers point.
You are correlating "army" with a unit of 20-50 men, or so. I would bet that every minor knight who lead 50 men into battle did not travel with his own portable forge. Perhaps this could be some form of army paraphernalia, if army paraphernalia or supply depots ever got implemented but I don't see it being added as paraphernalia for individual nobles.
My point:
Blacksmiths traveled with the supply trains and were often employed by feudal lords or worked as "contractors" to paying customers.Their main purpose was to shoe horses, fix weapons and armor, and make items during sieges to supplement those lost or damaged.
Again, refuted.
As to the title of the game battlemaster, no one likes peace in fact war is a catalyst for activity it gives people something to rally for and press against others for. While many realms couldn't fight others realm for the simply fact they are too damn far this would give that concept a fighting chance, and expensive chance but a chance nevertheless.
Long-distance warfare isn't exactly something that the game promotes. You're not supposed to be able to march to the other end of the island, stay on station for three weeks, then march home. Nor should you be able to sit inside an enemy realm for a month or two without having to go home. That may be fun for the realm doing it, but it would totally suck for the realm being occupied. The need for the attacker to leave and refit is one of the things that lets the defender catch their breath and regroup.
Again this wouldn't promote long distance fighting just longer ability to hold a army in the field,
In battle master warfare you gain 1-3% equipment damage by simply marching, a battle can take it down 5% easily if you're marching through 3-5 regions your looking at 15% plus a battle equal 20% where as the black smith can only viably in the initial thread only repair up to 1-3% damage at most he'd be able to negate the marching damage but the army would have to return to the capital as damages become overwhelming as always.
As for giving a realm breathing time that is always able to be ignored via game mechanic such as switching out armies in rotations this only add a new elements to the war aspect of the game and allows armies to be fielded "slightly" longer.
As for the Gold sink possibilities that lord can use it for would be this.
- Lords have to build it, it can only recruit so many smiths = $
- Knights and unit commanding nobles have to recruit them = $
- Units with them have to pay overhead fees, for them weekly = $
- while they can't fully repair a unit it will force the unit to return to the capital for "full" repairs = $
- It would give heed to the simple universal concept, wars cost money a rich realm could wage war all day where as a poor realm better start hording and fast.
Now even with this system a realm can't march across a continent to wage war on another realm having to cross 5 realms in the process simply due to the fact even with a smith by the time they got there they have gathered way more damage than the smith could fix making them still vulnerable to any attack. It would allow them to simply stay in the field and remain ballsy longer before having to go back for refits.
This has been rejected before, most of the reasons are posted on the wiki, but the whole discussion had quite a bit more content.
Reasons were given, and refuted by facts and the testimony of player who would find it a good aspect of battlemaster warfare.
The English marched all the way to Jerusalem in the middle ages, basically bordering the Asia continent in order to do this they cross the narrow, France, Germany, Italy, etc.. then finally figured out well we aren't supplied out here sign a treaty and go home. Point being for the history lesson is long distance wars are possible, holding out on them isn't this doesn't harm that truth it only extends it slight to our "fantasy game"
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Again this wouldn't promote long distance fighting just longer ability to hold a army in the field,
Which equates to long-distance fighting. Whether or not *you* would use it for that, that's what it would be used for. Anything that allows you to stay in the field longer means that you can march farther with that longer time.
Now even with this system a realm can't march across a continent to wage war on another realm having to cross 5 realms in the process simply due to the fact even with a smith by the time they got there they have gathered way more damage than the smith could fix making them still vulnerable to any attack. It would allow them to simply stay in the field and remain ballsy longer before having to go back for refits.
Your argument isn't making sense to me here. You say that this won't let you march farther, because the damage it can repair is so limited. But if it can't repair damage from marching enough to let you march farther, then how can it repair damage from doing... anything else? Damage is damage. It's not like marching damage is different than sitting around damage, which is different than battle damage. So how does your system let you repair enough damage to stay in the field longer, but not let you repair enough damage to march farther?
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I think the reasoning for and against mobile blacksmiths can be argued for ever without any side coming out on top. The deciding point then is whether it would benefit the game. It would be interesting, but I do not think it would add to the game.
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Your argument isn't making sense to me here. You say that this won't let you march farther, because the damage it can repair is so limited. But if it can't repair damage from marching enough to let you march farther, then how can it repair damage from doing... anything else? Damage is damage. It's not like marching damage is different than sitting around damage, which is different than battle damage. So how does your system let you repair enough damage to stay in the field longer, but not let you repair enough damage to march farther?
It's simple military logistics, a marching army can sustain it self longer than one under constant battle and ties into simple mathematics.
Army A: takes on 1-3% damage marching through 5 regions per region considered they make through each region per turn.To make it to an enemy city before receiving any damages the man amount of damages would realistically tie into boots, horse shoes, saddles, and sandles and food supply (food is already drained if a army compasses the region.) the traveling blacksmith can only repair 1-3% as well now considering he's never going to be perfectly lucky the damages of the army has totaled up to 10% the black smith unable to repair a perfect 3% each turn only happen to make enough repairs to lower damage by 4% leaving the army still with 6% damages
Now you are left with another pickle, pay time you need to pay the blacksmith 20-40 gold.
Suddenly you're in battle and suffer 15-20% damage now at bare minimum you're looking at 21% damage, plus wounded.
At 21% damage you're still looking at the possibility of 1-3% damage on the return trip alone which could total up to 36% again at a lucky minimum lets say he consistently repairs 2% per turn at 5 turns upon returning that's 10% damage he repairs, you're still stuck with 26%.
UNLESS you decide to stay and man it out, then since you're at a city they enemy can easily refit and recruit and now you're facing another battle. 1-3% for hanging around (this is also considering you haven't put your men through training for the entire trip.) You're face with another 15-20% damage now elts say you play it smart and if you happen to win you forage the battle field and gain 2% repairs, the black smith during this one turn only repairs 2% lets look at the equation.
Current damage without returning: 35% plus the recent battle of luckily: 15% through smart actions you only manage to repair 4%, that leave you with 46% now it's prolly time to go home and refit now.
Either way you have to return to the capital but if you manage to march long distance by the time for example across and continent you get there you'll be too tattered to be worth a fight. By the equation of 1-3% marching per turn across 10 regions minus the possible training aspect and considering you make it across each region per turn you're faced with 30% damage now running a random number generator on a d6 where 1-2=1, 3-4=2, and 5-6= 3,
Blacksmith repairs per turn
- 1% Repaired
- 3% Repaired
- 2% repaired
- 3% Repaired
- 3% repaired
- 1% repaired
- 3% repaired
- 1% repaired
- 1% Repaired
- 2% Repaired
Made it there with only 10% marching damage to answer for, now for battle 18% (randomized again)
current damage total 28%, stick around and it adds up.
See how it works?
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It helps, but it don't save you from the damage.
It looks fine to me.
But I think that it must have a higher weekly cost. Something around 100-150 gold. Maybe more.
Blacksmiths are expensive, this is the reason for not every unit have one with them.
Also they must be very rare so, if you loose one in battle, will not be so easy to hire another one.
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One, I don't see the original arguments refuted. I see counterarguments, but I don't see the argument resolved.
Two, game balance and design play a role.
Three, you are forgetting something important and that is incremental repairs. Right now the game keeps track of damage via one simple number. Even at the most restricted, someone could repair damage to his equipment at 1% every turn until it is fully repaired. Drawing in some arbitrary limit (say, can only repair down to x%) makes the least sense as especially those minor damages would be what a mobile smith could repair.
No, to make this possible, the game would have to keep track of damage in more refined ways. And since damage is used in many places, that is a major update to many code pieces. I don't see any positive effect on the game that even remotely justifies that amount of effort.
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One, I don't see the original arguments refuted. I see counterarguments, but I don't see the argument resolved.
The wiki arguments are made by someone professed to be a blacksmith apprentice that alone by many standards of verification prime example being Justice systems of alot of countries save for Mexico go by. It's equivalent would be a 1 year student in forensic science testifying as a professional in the field of forensic science over gun shot trajectory and blood splatter in a murder where as a professional's opinion would hold more if not concrete merit.
And since damage is used in many places, that is a major update to many code pieces. I don't see any positive effect on the game that even remotely justifies that amount of effort.
As for that argument, I have no rebuttal if it's not worth the effort to do it then it's not worth the effort to do it end of story, thanks for hearing me out though, Tom.
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The wiki arguments are made by someone professed to be a blacksmith apprentice that alone by many standards of verification prime example being Justice systems of alot of countries save for Mexico go by. It's equivalent would be a 1 year student in forensic science testifying as a professional in the field of forensic science over gun shot trajectory and blood splatter in a murder where as a professional's opinion would hold more if not concrete merit.
Since credentials on the Internet are hard to check, I don't care very much for what someone claims to have and what others think of it. Anyone can claim anything, and I prefer to listen to the arguments on the topic instead.
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How about something simpler that helps toward the same idea and doesn't introduce any new code: Requisition Smiths.
If you are in a region that has repair smithies, but you wouldn't normally be able to use them (say, you've just sacked an enemy city), you can send your troops out to round up the smiths and force them to work on your equipment. There's a chance you can't find them, a chance your equipment gets sabotaged ("The equipment looks to be in good order, but after you return to camp and begin practicing it breaks in ways you never anticipated. Equipment is now damaged by 5%"), and it burns two hours in addition to the normal repair times. Essentially, it's a military way to accomplish the current use of family gold to buy favours.
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... just make it a looting option?
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How about something simpler that helps toward the same idea and doesn't introduce any new code: Requisition Smiths.
If you are in a region that has repair smithies, but you wouldn't normally be able to use them (say, you've just sacked an enemy city), you can send your troops out to round up the smiths and force them to work on your equipment. There's a chance you can't find them, a chance your equipment gets sabotaged ("The equipment looks to be in good order, but after you return to camp and begin practicing it breaks in ways you never anticipated. Equipment is now damaged by 5%"), and it burns two hours in addition to the normal repair times. Essentially, it's a military way to accomplish the current use of family gold to buy favours.
I like this idea
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... just make it a looting option?
Yes, that's what I imagine this would be. Sorry I hadn't made that clear.
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A dead idea doesn't get any more alive by flogging it from various angles.
If there is a multitude of reasons listed why it's rejected, attacking one of them and ignoring the others simply won't fly.
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It is common sense that any medieval army on the march would bring a few blacksmiths with them to maintain their equipment. Why not add a new paraphernalia type designed to make daily repairs to equipment? The coding would probably be pretty similar to healers, and it could make for some more interesting warfare, instead of the same old "March, Fight, Refit" grind that always develops.
You have healers to repair damaged troops.. why not have blacksmiths to repair damaged equipment?
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Oh wait, now that I'm looking through this board I see this idea has already been proposed and rejected... never mind!
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Thank you.