BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: Blue Star on July 24, 2012, 02:25:04 AM
-
Summary: Royal Granary and Royal Treasury. The concept is to give the realm a way of storing food as well as storing gold. Giving bankers some power as well as some interesting ways to store food and gold.
Royal Granary: The idea for the “Royal Granary” is to bring back some authority for the Banker and an actual way to assist the realm they are in. This granary stores food for the realm. It is collected from various regions. The Granary will allow the Banker to collect a certain percentage from regions and store inside the treasury, which will be located in the Capital. The Banker will only be able to access the granary and provide food assistance from it. The money collected from the bankers transactions come and go from my next point the Royal Treasury.
Royal Treasury: Vault located in the capital where money can be stored. Access for Ruler mainly, who then can determine how much access Dukes have on withdrawing, Banker granted access to set up to 10 buy/sell orders. Depositing access is allowed by lords of the realm. Ruler and Banker get reports about how much is in the vault monthly beside when visiting it. Vault must be 50% filled or the realm takes a hit in morale and loyalty.
Details
Royal Granary:
- Rot % Higher, perhaps between 5-10%
- Banker sets rate of collection for each region, 1-3%. Comes every tax day from current food stored
- Granary – Size 1500. 1 allowed built in capital city, by Ruler. Cost: 500-1000
- Banker can set buy/sell orders that come from granary and treasury
- Transactions go to the Royal treasury
Royal Treasury:
Ruler, Banker and Dukes have access[/li]
- All Lords can deposit funds.
- Must maintain 50% balance in vault else realms loyalty and morale are damaged until it’s attained.
- Vault sizes – 1000, 2500, 5000, etc. Cost for building half that of what size is trying to be attained.
Both:
Allowed to have guards like religions and guilds do.
Benefits:
Banker has some authority and a interesting way to manage food and to protect the realm from starvation. Realm has a place to store funds and ways to take them out.
Enemy realms have more reason to hit capitals and can really do damage, militia becomes more important.
Infiltrators get a new target!
Possible Exploits: I'm sure there are some we can think of now or can be discussed.
Note*
Currently Bankers have the "responsibility to feed the nation, but not the authority to do so." -swholmes@gmail.com. Bankers need more to do and need to have actual ways of feeding the realm and managing food besides having to convert to the trader class. What’s the point of having a banker if he has no authority and can't do much?
-
Why would food rot faster in the royal granary? more rats and bad locations?
And why would dukes be allowed to access the royal treasury?
-
Great questions.
Royal granary would rot due having to travel to the capital, plus im sure the sewer rats of the cities would eat it rather quickly.
The idea for access for the dukes is questionable yes. However, the Ruler determines who gets access and the amount of access. If Ruler trust the duke then yes, you'd assume they'd have some access. Most likely regulated by the Ruler or perhaps Banker since his job is to handle finances for the Ruler as well as the realm.
-
Why would food rot faster in the royal granary? more rats and bad locations?
And why would dukes be allowed to access the royal treasury?
It is mostly a balance thing I think, and as such a real world "reason" is not strictly required. In other words it exists to ensure that realms don't try to store massive amounts of food in the royal granary in order to completely circumvent regional markets.
One thing I have often thought about, Dukes have the ability to tax gold from their regions, but not food. Back when Dukes were always the lord of the city I often though it would be useful if they could set a tax rate on food as well. Given that Dukes no longer necessarily control the city some though about where the taxed food is stored would be necessary.
-
Does not being able to tax food take away from the idea that food is the lord's own produce? What purpose does food serve in that case other than a mildly different form of less useful gold?
Rather than try to tax for food, has the idea of simply using the royal treasury to buy food (which the Banker can do) been considered?
-
Does not being able to tax food take away from the idea that food is the lord's own produce? What purpose does food serve in that case other than a mildly different form of less useful gold?
Rather than try to tax for food, has the idea of simply using the royal treasury to buy food (which the Banker can do) been considered?
Is not the gold produced by the Lords region ALSO his own produce? Where does the idea that the Lord owns his food come from. When you look at it some realms impose this idea to offset the fact that Lords of rural regions get poor gold incomes. It is not an inherent tenant of the game just one more arbitrary aspect of realm culture, much like realms that insist all food is owned by the realm.
However historically tax on food was extremely common.
And yes, the original idea allowed the banker to buy and sell from the royal Granary as well as impose a tax.
-
I don't see a difference between taxing gold and taxing food.
-
I don't see a difference between taxing gold and taxing food.
The only time there would be a real difference is in realms where for what ever reason (inactivity, spite, some rebellious strategy) significant amounts of food are never leaving rural regions. Being able to tax food in those cases would allow at least some of the the food to be utilised.
-
Then I strongly support taxing food. And the whole idea really.
-
eh... how does that work?
duke taxes lords, ruler taxes dukes. no good reason to have a separate tax structure bypassing hierarchy just because it's food.
and if you have that, you'll reinforce city lord = duke mindset which is bad. because every man and dog will have duke+city lord tax rural lord and skip trading altogether.
and the other thing is... doesn't really make sense to have food taxed once a gold tax, as opposed to everyday. (though it would encourage those with large stores sell it quickly)
-
eh... how does that work?
duke taxes lords, ruler taxes dukes. no good reason to have a separate tax structure bypassing hierarchy just because it's food.
and if you have that, you'll reinforce city lord = duke mindset which is bad. because every man and dog will have duke+city lord tax rural lord and skip trading altogether.
and the other thing is... doesn't really make sense to have food taxed once a gold tax, as opposed to everyday. (though it would encourage those with large stores sell it quickly)
Firstly that assumes that you allow food tax rates to be high enough to replace regular shipping.
Secondly there is no reason that food taxes and gold taxes would need to be collected at the same time
I do agree it could encourage the mindset of Duke must be the City Lord. I'm not really sure how prevalent that mind set is at the moment, so it could be that it is so wide spread little would change. I can think of ways to avoid this problem, but they would also result in increased complexity.
-
This idea goes against several concepts, as such I don't give it many chances.
One, food is very intentionally localized. It is one of the limiting factors for large realms, and a centralized treasury would defeat that purpose.
Two, gold is given to characters, not positions or places.
Three, this only fits for highly centralized government types.
-
Thing is, Tom, you end up with situations where the banker has no ability to control the food in his own realm. Leading to two things, one nearly guaranteed, and the other likely. The first is that the Banker will have no power, and almost no purpose, his only ability being that of seeing where all the food is. The second is that you can end up with a situation like that you have in Morek, in which a rural lord has literally over 3000-5000 bushels all in one region (yes, this has happened, and I know exactly who is doing it and where), with no way for anyone to move ANY of that food back out again.
-
Why not just give the banker an option to forcefully take food and move them to whereever he wants? But only once a turn and the amount should be limited to maybe to 100 bushels?
-
This idea goes against several concepts, as such I don't give it many chances.
One, food is very intentionally localized. It is one of the limiting factors for large realms, and a centralized treasury would defeat that purpose.
Two, gold is given to characters, not positions or places.
Three, this only fits for highly centralized government types.
Also, according to the tax reports, which states, and I quote, "The crown has received 205 gold tax income thanks to a realm share of 10 %.
In addition, the realm made 430 gold from other sources (fines, etc.), bringing the crown's total income to 635 gold."
Certain positions do receive gold. I remember the same happening for the other council positions, at least before the new estate system took effect. I'm not sure if the separate positions each get a share of gold anymore or not.
-
Also, according to the tax reports, which states, and I quote, "The crown has received 205 gold tax income thanks to a realm share of 10 %.
In addition, the realm made 430 gold from other sources (fines, etc.), bringing the crown's total income to 635 gold."
Certain positions do receive gold. I remember the same happening for the other council positions, at least before the new estate system took effect. I'm not sure if the separate positions each get a share of gold anymore or not.
The other council positions do not receive gold anymore. Only the ruler does.
-
Ah, thank you.
-
Thing is, Tom, you end up with situations where the banker has no ability to control the food in his own realm. Leading to two things, one nearly guaranteed, and the other likely. The first is that the Banker will have no power, and almost no purpose, his only ability being that of seeing where all the food is. The second is that you can end up with a situation like that you have in Morek, in which a rural lord has literally over 3000-5000 bushels all in one region (yes, this has happened, and I know exactly who is doing it and where), with no way for anyone to move ANY of that food back out again.
This particular Lord could be banned/exiled/disappeared, and you could nominate another Lord in his stead.
Or, you know, you could offer to buy his food.
-
in which a rural lord has literally over 3000-5000 bushels all in one region (yes, this has happened, and I know exactly who is doing it and where), with no way for anyone to move ANY of that food back out again.
And this is bad why? What a fantastic opportunity for some in-realm conflict!
-
Why not just give the banker an option to forcefully take food and move them to whereever he wants? But only once a turn and the amount should be limited to maybe to 100 bushels?
Why would I want to do such a thing?
Why is everyone so focussed on the perfect realm management strategy? Food belongs to the lord of the region, period.
-
I'm not a part of the realm, so I couldn't get him banned if I wanted to. Also, I didn't say that the situation was completely bad. Just saying that the Banker has less power than a rural Lord, which is kind of ridiculous for a council position.
And by power I mean mechanics wise. We're not including non-tangible things such as influence.
-
I'm not a part of the realm, so I couldn't get him banned if I wanted to.
That's...normal, I would say.
Also, I didn't say that the situation was completely bad. Just saying that the Banker has less power than a rural Lord, which is kind of ridiculous for a council position.
I don't think it's so unusual. Council positions are really just nobles who got a job as civil servants of the crown. The landed gentry is where the real power is. Of course, often they overlap.
-
A banker's power is built on money, trade and above all relationships with the landed lords. It's soft power just like the Ruler's and General's.
-
Two, gold is given to characters, not positions or places.
I am indeed not a fan of the idea of the royal treasury, because I think the pocket of the ruler serves that purpose quite well.
However, I like the idea of a food tax that pushes some food upwards in the same way that the gold tax pushes gold upwards, with the banker as the final recipient. The problem is that the banker is not necessarily a region Lord, and therefore has no place to put the food in, so a new building would be needed.
-
Just saying that the Banker has less power than a rural Lord, which is kind of ridiculous for a council position.
And by power I mean mechanics wise. We're not including non-tangible things such as influence.
But that is what power is. He has less buttons to click, but whether or not that equates to less power or not entirely depends.
-
However, I like the idea of a food tax that pushes some food upwards in the same way that the gold tax pushes gold upwards, with the banker as the final recipient. The problem is that the banker is not necessarily a region Lord, and therefore has no place to put the food in, so a new building would be needed.
But food isn't supposed to be pushed upwards. And I don't see why it should be. I want power to rest with the landed nobles.
-
And you end up with situations like in Kindara, where a Duchess is apparently logging in enough to not auto-pause, but refuses to answer messages or appoint a lord to one of her rurals for more than a month. There's 1000 bushels of food stuck in that rural with no way to get it out while her city starves, and the duchess can't even be banned because she's a royal.
I apparently missed the part where anything is bad or needs change...
-
How about the fact that the rural has no lord, so, realistically, we could just go to the granaries and take the damn food. But apparently only the non-existent lord has the magical key to the unbreakable lock.
More then likely the granary guards don't recognise the authority of anyone else to access the food. After all bureaucrats continue to be bureaucrats even when there isn't a lord around. The food is held in surety for the next Lord after all. Beyond the absent Lord the region and thus the food may belong to the Duke/Duchess, you know the one that is the problem to start with. Or would you perhaps prefer that a new mechanic be introduced to circumvent the Duke/Duchess power within their own Duchy so we can avoid such things?
-
Or would you perhaps prefer that a new mechanic be introduced to circumvent the Duke/Duchess power within their own Duchy so we can avoid such things?
Given that's one of the main suggestions in this thread, yes, completely.
-
Given that's one of the main suggestions in this thread, yes, completely.
I think its quite clear that Tom is against it. The original proposal was more to do with giving the Banker a personal pool of food to draw on for emergency situations and small scale transfers, or at least that is how I read it. Given Tom's feedback I think the proposal will probably need to drop any idea of a food tax to have a hope of consideration. That leaves a Royal Granary that the banker can buy food for and sell to those that need it. Given that in another thread Tom has stated he didn't want bankers to get defacto trader abilities even that seems unlikely.
-
Lot of discussion hmm interesting.
@De-legro you are right about your assumption purpose was to give Banker a small pool of food where he can assist the realms regions.
Why would they not get defacto trader abilities? maybe on a small scale compared to traders but they should have some. It isn't like they have anything else beside reports.
True, positions are only as strong as the realm as a whole makes them. I understand that and what you are saying, but I agree bankers seem to be lower than regional lords in abilities and power. Giving them the ability to transfer a small amount of food doesn't make them Over powered.
Food Tax, that doesn't seem to be on Tom's good side. But the original idea was to push region lords to sell food before tax day. Else they'd be taxed 1-3 percent of it. Giving them a motive to not sit and collect large stores. As well as to make it difficult for the Banker to get funds. He'd have to rely on the hope that region lords do not sell their food. Yet, with this implemented they would umm wouldn't they?
I do see your point that food is the region lords. However, I think back then food for the most part was actually the Rulers. He taxed them gold as well as food. If im wrong then so be it though I remember King Richard bleeding his people virtually dry to fund his army for the crusades, thought that included food. Maybe I'm wrong, im not much of a history buff.
-
So now we agree that food is the region lord's property.
If the banker wants trader benefits, become a trader.
-
just offering solutions to the dodgy dukeship.
i maintain giving lords the option of appointing bankers as stewards will solve problems of lords not wanting to care about food. (need the option to resign as steward.... pretty sure current knight stewards can't resign either)... that is, if there's anyone interested in doing food. if there isn't... too bad.
-
I support the idea of a Royal/Whatever-Government Granary and Coin Vault, as was normal in medieval times. (Even the church had their own grain/gold stores! WHOEVER CONTROLS THE SPICE CONTROLS TH- Wait. Grain, not spice. Derp.)
-
Dwilight? whats that? Thought we were talking about Royal granary and treasury. Right!
Do you think this is feasible to do? I know my idea has some lets say gaps. Yet, What do you think of the actual idea being purposed?
-
There will be no "virtual" food. Period. Any food in the game will always be in some actual place - a region granary or marketplace. You want a "royal granary"? Make the banker a region lord and institute a law that every region has to sell him a fixed amount of food for a fixed amount of gold every month or whatever.
-
... the point is.. i already mentioned existing tools for dealing with such an issue.
-
I still fail to see what's bad about it. From a gameplay perspective. Does this cause people to have less fun playing the game? Why?
Yes, especially in Dwilight where your little experiment to improve trade has failed. Now there's even less of it, since people are focusing on hoarding what little food is left for their realm.
-
When will the auto buy/sell come back? I think once we get that working we don't have to worry about lazy people anymore. Well we will still have some but hopefully it will fix some of the issues...
-
Yes, especially in Dwilight where your little experiment to improve trade has failed. Now there's even less of it, since people are focusing on hoarding what little food is left for their realm.
That has nothing to do with this particular issue. And I'm working on fixing that.
-
Not that it's my call, but it's most certainly not something my character would do, nor likely the realm's ruler.
Propose a solution that's not gamey?
I have a couple in my mind, but they're not for this game, would require way too many changes.
Allow the banker to act as steward for a region with no lord. This would help with part of this situation.
-
Allow the banker to act as steward for a region with no lord. This would help with part of this situation.
Potential for abuse: you could run a realm with a single character. You appoint yourself Tyrant, Duke and Banker. You appoint yourself as lord of different regions of your realm in turns to build RCs, temples, adjust taxes, etc. You use your banker ability to move food around, and you set all taxes to 100% to collect all the gold to yourself.
-
Potential for abuse: you could run a realm with a single character. You appoint yourself Tyrant, Duke and Banker. You appoint yourself as lord of different regions of your realm in turns to build RCs, temples, adjust taxes, etc. You use your banker ability to move food around, and you set all taxes to 100% to collect all the gold to yourself.
...seriously? You're seriously suggesting anyone would actually do this? And that this imaginary idiot would be allowed to do so by the rest of the realm? Come on now...
-
The problem is you have a royal duke who does not appoint lords in his duchy. These regions have no steward. You want access to the region's food. Correct?
Why is the problem with the last part rather than solving the cause? Can you think of any other more common circumstances that would demand a similar change?
That's probably a better way of putting it: if it were easy to control the output of a region with no Lord, then what incentive is there to appoint a Lord in the first place?
-
No, I want a way to move food with the collaboration of the entire realm, minus one duke.
-
No, I want a way to move food with the collaboration of the entire realm, minus one duke.
You can move the food of an entire realm, minus one region!
That probably sounds sarcastic, but really it isn't. You can actually do that.
-
Appointing lords is one of the duke's primary powers.
Food is a lord's primary resource.
You see the imbalance if we arbitrarily add power to solve a single side of the problem?
-
Off-topic posts about Kindara have been removed here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php?topic=2861.0 (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php?topic=2861.0)
-
I'm with Tom on this,
If a Lord is hording food and say the Duke needs it he should send a request to force the Lord to give the food up the chain of command i.e. the King.
the King makes a choice and instructs the Judge to act accordingly, the Judge can then collaborate with the Banker to see just how much food he is
hording then make a judgement to fine him heavily or banish him.
Eventually the Lord gives in or gets banished and loses the region in which case the Duke then appoints a new Lord.
Problem solved, the perfect government doesn't exist it involves "working together" with government colleagues to accomplish goals.
Relying on giving a single position power to solve major realm issues won't help anything, except as a easy button that provides no need for IC social interaction.
-
here's an odd thought.
bankers should be allowed to make "buy offers" for any regions (or i guess only those with no lords). - strictly buy, not sell.
he's not taking food away from anyone and if he's paying out of his pockets... who cares?
(apart from pressure to have rich bastard being banker or banker expected to pay out of his own pockets)
-
Interesting thought. Seems balanced.
-
here's an odd thought.
bankers should be allowed to make "buy offers" for any regions (or i guess only those with no lords). - strictly buy, not sell.
he's not taking food away from anyone and if he's paying out of his pockets... who cares?
You think I'm going to let that fool banker use my Granaries for free?
-
It's an interesting thought.
But why not just send gold to the lord and have him put up the buy offer? What problem are you trying to solve?
-
mostly.. it's newly TO'ed regions, where lords are elected.
or where there's a vacuum... no lord, no steward. something to tie things over.. and not a permanent solution.
-
Or where the Margrave isn't doing his job and causing his city to starve.
-
bankers should be allowed to make "buy offers" for any regions (or i guess only those with no lords). - strictly buy, not sell
Sure, if there's no lord. If there is a lord, then it's the lord's job to do it. If the lord isn't doing their job, then too bad for them.
-
If the banker is also a lord/steward/trader, wouldn't this allow him to "give" food to a starving region? He creates the buy offer, and then fulfills it, at a loss.
-
Allow the banker to build marketplaces in any region (where they are currently allowed, though, to be honest, any area with even a tiny population has some sort of market, ie farmers market, etc). The construction would come out of the bankers pocket.
-
each region has a building limit though...
-
Allow the banker to build marketplaces in any region (where they are currently allowed, though, to be honest, any area with even a tiny population has some sort of market, ie farmers market, etc). The construction would come out of the bankers pocket.
The region is the lord's, not the banker. Only the banker should have that authority.
-
The region is the lord's, not the banker. Only the Lord should have that authority.
Fixed it.
-
The region is the lord's, not the banker. Only the banker should have that authority.
/banker//lord
A point of commerce can be seen as part of the government, and in a Monarchy, infrastructure (commerce, tax collection, roads) can be at the whim of the King or Queen. If the region is the lords, then why do we send taxes to the crown? I'd rather just not have royal tax collectors in my region if that's the case.
-
another side, but related thought - how about intercepting messages. If I send a scout to an area with enemy troops, since all messages are sent via horse courier, there's a small chance that I can intercept and copy the message (any message sent to or from enemies in that region). The courier would of course notify the recipient that the message was copied.
-
another side, but related thought - how about intercepting messages. If I send a scout to an area with enemy troops, since all messages are sent via horse courier, there's a small chance that I can intercept and copy the message (any message sent to or from enemies in that region). The courier would of course notify the recipient that the message was copied.
Same reason, people will distrust the message system and use other, OOC, messaging systems instead.
-
Thank you for all the ideas and contributions. I think this request has pretty much run its course. We will not be adding any kind of virtual granary, royal granary, or royal treasury. Please move other conversations (fake messages, etc.) to a separate thread in the development board.