BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: Lorgan on August 26, 2012, 08:22:27 PM
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I've recently convinced a friend to start playing the game and from his reaction it seems that what is bothering to new nobles the most is the slow pace. This is something I personally don't have much of an issue with since I play 4 characters of which two are deeply involved in their realms and two I play semi-actively. Of course it does take some time to establish your characters and get truly involved but then still a new player who can play only 2 nobles is going to quit because of boredom faster than one who can play 4 characters immediately, I would think.
Now, it can take a long time for a new player to get a little busier.
So what I'm saying is that in terms of player retention and making the game attractive not only to seasoned gamers like the DF community but also to new players who aren't familiar with this sort of game, it'd be better to give them as much to do/follow/get involved in as soon as possible. Which could be easily accomplished by allowing everyone to play 4 characters from the start.
Especially since there's not many games out there that are as slow paced as battlemaster and it takes some time getting used to for most people.
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I fully support this.
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Yeah. 2 or 3 nobles won't get people interested. They can get unlucky and be placed in two inactive realms in a row. There are people who do not want to reveal their personal information and even they should get at least three.
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You can play a turn in 15 minutes if you take your time. Encourage them to read their realm forums and the help forums. If they are new to this type of game then they are probably not role players, so even a couple active nobles won't peak their interest.
What keeps me to this game is the fact that I can do my turn in 5 minutes if I have to. This is also a game where your wit and scheming can do wondrous things. This is not a game for the impatient.
Have your friend make an adventurer - that will spice things up a bit.
Also, have your friend post some public messages asking what they should be doing - there are some large wars happening now.
I don't think that speeding up the pace of the game is going to solve anything - let's just help get him more involved.
Best regards,
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Most realms are awful. When I started, I was lucky in that one of my starting characters was in a good place. Most people, I'm afraid, are not so lucky. Giving them more characters means they get a better spread and a better chance of striking gold.
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The reason that I continued playing right in the beginning, when I was almost turned off by the poor graphics and slow pace, was because I got what I thought of as a good gold income (about 60 gold) and an opportunity to increase it by increasing the size of my estate. Otherwise I might have chucked the whole thing. Especially when my friend who recommended it and was starting to play again bailed after about 3 days lol.
I actually only created my third character after about 2 weeks, because I wanted to learn more about the game before committing too many characters. It is a steep learning curve - will have more characters make it harder or easier? I'm inclined to say harder, perhaps.
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We have some new people joining Carelia, but there is no room for them as in, no estates for them to take. I suggest there to be a message thats warns them about joining a duchy without estates will be much less fun or someway for realms or duchies to say they don't have room for more players. (You join the realm, but IIRC when you make a new noble its the duchy you choose to join.)
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The reason that I continued playing right in the beginning, when I was almost turned off by the poor graphics and slow pace, was because I got what I thought of as a good gold income (about 60 gold) and an opportunity to increase it by increasing the size of my estate. Otherwise I might have chucked the whole thing. Especially when my friend who recommended it and was starting to play again bailed after about 3 days lol.
I actually only created my third character after about 2 weeks, because I wanted to learn more about the game before committing too many characters. It is a steep learning curve - will have more characters make it harder or easier? I'm inclined to say harder, perhaps.
I'd say it makes it easier, but we should be talking to an actual new player, because so much has changed and we've only had to take it a bit at a time, lessening the learning experience some. I say easier, because more characters gives you more situations, more people to talk to, and thus more people to possibly help you.
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The problem is not of character count. The problem is how welcoming or not the game is.
With the new message system, we will introduce a new global channel to help newbies out. That, for one, should be a big help.
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I would fully support a way for realms to advertise their capacity for new nobles. Carelia may not have estates but Strombran has some available and we are looking for new nobles. The thing is I don't think that new players have any way of knowing this.
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The problem is not of character count. The problem is how welcoming or not the game is.
With the new message system, we will introduce a new global channel to help newbies out. That, for one, should be a big help.
I believe the issue Lorgan raised is more about involvement rather than the learning curve. That is, unless a newcomer is quite lucky it is true that a brand new character will hardly be involved in any of the (likely) several layers of realm activity, since it is not that common to have realm-wide interesting discussion ongoing.
Regardless of how well the newcomer understands the game, if he/she is eager to experience it having only two characters living at the bottom of the feudal hierarchy will likely give him very little news to play with, and might push him to quit thinking "this game is boring". Yes, the pace is declaredly slow, and one can argue that while a newbie is busy figuring out how the game works he might not need that many inputs, but we all know how important is the first impression of a game.
In the end this has much more to do with how a realm is structured and how much the older characters living there try their best to retain newcomers than with game mechanics, but it proved -at least for me- to be quite difficult to motivate newcomers sometimes.
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This is a problem with newcomers. If they join a pretty inactive realm, they get bored soon and quit the game altogether. They need to get to know that many realms are out there where situations are different (said something similar to a newbie on BM fb group).
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Also 4 or 2, it doesn't matter much. What if one has really bad luck and all 4 fall in inactive realms, hmmm?
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Also 4 or 2, it doesn't matter much. What if one has really bad luck and all 4 fall in inactive realms, hmmm?
That's less likely with 4 than 2. Simple statistics there.
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It is also not just about "inactive" realms. Some very active realms have a great deal of their activity in the higher parts of the game. If you aren't part of the right message groups etc you aren't going to be part of it. This is the problem much of the "involvement" in realms can be for solely for established characters in the realm. We need to ensure there is something interesting for new players to do in realm regardless of what the realm is currently up to.
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Just have no message groups in the realm and discus most matters in public.
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It is also not just about "inactive" realms. Some very active realms have a great deal of their activity in the higher parts of the game. If you aren't part of the right message groups etc you aren't going to be part of it. This is the problem much of the "involvement" in realms can be for solely for established characters in the realm. We need to ensure there is something interesting for new players to do in realm regardless of what the realm is currently up to.
This is what I meant with "it is more a matter of how realms are handled rather than game mechanics": if a realm keeps everything behind closed doors newcomers will be bored and leave, and a realm with fewer knights is weaker.
However the issue Lorgan refers to is that realms handled in this way are not only weaker IC, which would be perfectly fine, but are detrimental to the player basis as they might drive away potential players from bm altogether.
A island-wide newcomers channel, as Tom was suggesting, could partially solve the problem if newcomers become aware that it's really their realm that sucks and not bm as a game :)
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Just have no message groups in the realm and discus most matters in public.
Oh great, cause Fontan was a perfect example of efficient communication.
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Oh great, cause Fontan was a perfect example of efficient communication.
There is a difference though, Fontan was a democracy (i think or republic?). Those realms tend to care more about how things look like then how things actually go just to get the votes, etc. But it's good to have an informed realm where nobles can give their opinion, it makes them feel part of something larger and new nobles are faster part of a realm. It works with a monarchy where in the end there is still one guy or girl calling the shots.
This is better then having all communication restricted to only a few who are directly involved, a lot of newer nobles who aren't part of the clique just sit there and are expected to follow orders of their army. To me this doesn't sound like a fun game. But everyone has his own preferences.
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Just have no message groups in the realm and discus most matters in public.
I used to see that a lot more than now. Why? Well, a few very visible spy cases scared most out of that habit. The army system was introduced which took most of the military talk out of the realm wide channel, leaving those not in the army completely out of the loop.
A combination of player actions as well as some design choices have contributed greatly to making even active realms seem dead on the surface.
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You have to ask yourself the question, what will do more damage to a realm, spies or a realm that seems dead?
I have to admit though, the army talk I have in a special council.
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That's not such an easy question as it appears. A good spy can kill a realm, in a very demoralizing way. It sucks all the will out of you and can kill the realm's motivation.
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The worst damage that spies do is not the information they get from public discussion, but the fact that due to them, public discussions move to private channels.
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The worst damage that spies do is not the information they get from public discussion, but the fact that due to them, public discussions move to private channels.
I think this is also affecting new players. They get bored in realms where most of them talk in private channels. You literally have to play half a year or a full year to get enough trust to be in those private channels.
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I think this is also affecting new players. They get bored in realms where most of them talk in private channels. You literally have to play half a year or a full year to get enough trust to be in those private channels.
That depends on the realm, but sometimes this is the case, yes.
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At first I was sort of gobsmacked by the extreme lack of things to do in BM. Partly due to the realm I was in (the Fall of Summerdale turned pretty stagnant, pretty quickly) and due to a lack of understanding of the game. This was in a realm with quite a few very active and vocal nobles, with most messages being public, along with plenty of RP'ing to break up the boredom.
So I made a couple of test nobles and adventurers on different islands to learn more about the game and began to discover the depth that lay in the game (fortunately one was in a very active war at the time, so I learnt to appreciate manouver and group tactics).
Then I axed the lot of them and got into playing adventurers. Which has been a barrel of laughs all round. It's suprising just how active you can be with adventurers if you so choose.
Now I've come the full circle and am about to start up a noble again on Dwilight because I want to have some more fun and understand the options, depth and interplay of things far better. She'll no-doubt become my main character and will stick around for a long time.
So my suggestions for new, bored players are:
Make test nobles and adventurers and try some things out, no where near where you intend on actually playing. Then kill them off and start your actual characters. Whilst it may be frowned upon, it takes all the hassle of the learning curve out of the game.
Always have at least one adventurer on your roster. It gives you a different type of thing to do, and you can do more than is made out. The new messaging system is amazing, so ALWAYS contact at least one noble and pledge service. They're then in your contacts list, that you can contact from anywhere in the world. It makes you feel like you're part of something larger.
Join a guild, a religion or both. Bam! Instant interesting message channels open to you. Even if you have no idea what the guild or religion is about, it gives you something to read or do. Whether you're an adventurer or noble, the entry price is worth it.
Once you've done your introduction message and found your estate, message your local lord. Even out-of-character. It gives you an idea of how active they are. Ask them what they'd like you to do. It gives you something to do. If they don't respond after a couple of days, find another estate. The one you're in is going to be boring unless people message a fair bit. Kissing arse to near the top is half of a noble's job anyway.
The amount of characters you start with is a little limiting, but you get another fairly soon afterwards. If you do all of the above, you won't get bored in that first month.
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Most of all, I think that newbies should be disallowed from dumping their characters in the same place. Having four characters is no better than two if they dump them together into the same two realms instead of all on different continents.
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Make test nobles and adventurers and try some things out, no where near where you intend on actually playing. Then kill them off and start your actual characters. Whilst it may be frowned upon, it takes all the hassle of the learning curve out of the game.
That's not really frowned upon. I at least I don't frown upon it - I think that's good advice.
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I've got two adventurers on Belluaterra that don't interact at all, and had two on Dwilight (that were going to interact slightly, but one couldn't get payed for general scouting or skulldudgery).
So I'm going to have an adventurer and a noble on Dwilight in the same realm. Fortunately they don't like each other, so any meta-gaming will be in the negative for each character, not the positive. It will be interesting to see how they go at it really.
I've enjoyed having 2 characters on the same island. In a way, it immerses you more deeply in your environment. As long as you don't try exploiting the hell out of it, or overusing your meta-knowledge of things, I think it's a good idea really. Your characters don't really have to like each other, or even know of another's existance. A little meta-gaming is understandable (I will probably never waste time messaging myself completely un-important details), but as long as the characters are seperate entities, not screwing the system, and remain true to how you've played that character's personality, I think it's good. Especially when you're new, it really lets you see the world a little more clearly and gives you an idea of what you can do, and what you shouldn't do. There's no need to buddy-up with yourself. That's boring. There's hundreds of other players to do that with. At least you don't know exactly what they'll do, and that's half the fun.
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Our new player problem is indeed quite dificult to solve.
I managed to convince quite a few people into playing but most of them stopped.
The main problem i see is that they don't quickly grasp the idea of progress in the game that is so unqie to BM.
In most games people are told what there goals are so the gamer can be creative inf idning a way to reach that goal.
In BM you have to make up your own goals and then try to reach them threw interaction with other players.
Most players that started the game just couldnt change there thinking and couldnt make up a goal for there characters.
That is why i believe we could use some sort of helpline during the first month(s) that will guide the player in characterizing there characters and family more and setting goals who they will reach and gain some extra H/p for.
Thegame could first start with guiding the character to recruit a decent unit, join an army, get an estate fight some battles against monsters undead and humans. and from there it could help the player choose a career, military, economic, religious, administrative, the guide would then further suggest goals and ways of reaching those goals.
(example: economic firsts tep could be to try and become a steward, change class and get a few trades at last the guide suggest the player to perhaps look for becoming just rich or also pwoerful as banker)
This way all the wiki help files could be givin to the player exactly when he needs them and when he will most likley want to read it with focus.
It also helps a player stay motivated and truly get to know the game before it quites.
This system will also welcome players more, as the game keeps helping the player and motivating the player.
At the same time, the new message system could be useful to help new players in specific quistions and offcourse the so valuable personal expirience from an old BM character with knowledge.
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I have had something on my mind for a long time that has never been fleshed out: Family goals.
Maybe we could use it for new players. Roll up three random goals and tell them that their family would be really happy if ... things like "accumulate 200 gold" or "get a region lordship", etc.
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I've got two adventurers on Belluaterra that don't interact at all, and had two on Dwilight (that were going to interact slightly, but one couldn't get payed for general scouting or skulldudgery).
So I'm going to have an adventurer and a noble on Dwilight in the same realm. Fortunately they don't like each other, so any meta-gaming will be in the negative for each character, not the positive. It will be interesting to see how they go at it really.
I've enjoyed having 2 characters on the same island. In a way, it immerses you more deeply in your environment. As long as you don't try exploiting the hell out of it, or overusing your meta-knowledge of things, I think it's a good idea really. Your characters don't really have to like each other, or even know of another's existance. A little meta-gaming is understandable (I will probably never waste time messaging myself completely un-important details), but as long as the characters are seperate entities, not screwing the system, and remain true to how you've played that character's personality, I think it's good. Especially when you're new, it really lets you see the world a little more clearly and gives you an idea of what you can do, and what you shouldn't do. There's no need to buddy-up with yourself. That's boring. There's hundreds of other players to do that with. At least you don't know exactly what they'll do, and that's half the fun.
For experienced players, it's fine. I just think that dumping characters in the same spot is very risky for people who don't know the game and the realms, as it favors making an opinion out of a very restricted sample.
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I have had something on my mind for a long time that has never been fleshed out: Family goals.
Maybe we could use it for new players. Roll up three random goals and tell them that their family would be really happy if ... things like "accumulate 200 gold" or "get a region lordship", etc.
This could work, beginners can get 'lost' in this kind of game... this way they will have an objective! Maybe give some kind of award when reached.
Some games had some kind of 'missions' to be made for the beginners, usually in increasing difficulty... a kind of tutorial... BM could use something like that.... kill some monsters, get gold, a lordship, a unique item, a Duchy, get much more gold, become ruler, with x duels, etc...
It's an interesting idea.
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I think that is better. A "first steps" kind of guide with small rewards.
- recruit a unit
- get an estate
- fight a battle
- become lord of a region
That should be about it. Maybe add a few optionals such as joining a guild or religion or something.
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I think that is better. A "first steps" kind of guide with small rewards.
- recruit a unit
- get an estate
- fight a battle
- become lord of a region
That should be about it. Maybe add a few optionals such as joining a guild or religion or something.
Joining a religion and getting a government office sound like good additions. Maybe win a battle, instead of just fighting one?
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Becoming lord of a region and obtaining a government office can, especially if you're in realms of a certain type, take multiple RL years. If those are presented as "new player goals" on par with "get an estate" and "fight a battle", you could very well end up with lots of new players feeling very frustrated that they can't achieve them.
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true
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Most of all, I think that newbies should be disallowed from dumping their characters in the same place. Having four characters is no better than two if they dump them together into the same two realms instead of all on different continents.
Already exists, If you create a character in a realm then try to create a second as a new account your forced to wait a week
I think that is better. A "first steps" kind of guide with small rewards.
- recruit a unit
- get an estate
- fight a battle
- become lord of a region
That should be about it. Maybe add a few optionals such as joining a guild or religion or something.
What would be the benefits for doing so? This seems basically like an achivements system as you see in modern games where your only reward is a little emblem in a list and perhaps some xbox gamer score, unless you gain something at the end of that it seems pretty worthless. Perhaps;
Objective - Get a swordskill of 30 and an honour of 50
Reward - Your character can now become a hero
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Purpose: Give new players a bit of guidance.
But I like your last idea there. We could integrate existing limitations into the system this way. Tell people that if they reach X prestige, options A, B and C as well as a few others will open up.
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Right now the family send gold to the new nobles, maybe we could change this to be rewards for this small missions.
send a message of presentation: 10 gold.
recruit a unit: 25 gold.
get a state: 30 gold.
fight a monster horde/Battle?
get assigned to an army?
visit a temple or something about religions or guilds?
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Purpose: Give new players a bit of guidance.
But I like your last idea there. We could integrate existing limitations into the system this way. Tell people that if they reach X prestige, options A, B and C as well as a few others will open up.
How about triggered guidance, rather than having a quest for things like recruit a unit or fight some monsters for example:
**Your men havn't been paid in seven days**
Game - Your men need paying you should pay them, you can pay them through the orders screen, you can also set standing orders for your men to be paid every X days
**You pay your men**
Game - As a new noble your trustworthness needs to be proved, you have proved you are an honest man by paying your men this helps your prestige
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Becoming lord of a region and obtaining a government office can, especially if you're in realms of a certain type, take multiple RL years. If those are presented as "new player goals" on par with "get an estate" and "fight a battle", you could very well end up with lots of new players feeling very frustrated that they can't achieve them.
On the other hand, giving only objectives that can really quickly be achieved can leave him wondering what's left to do in the game. I don't see how a long-term objective, among many easier ones, would be all that bad. By then, he'd have figured out the game better. The point of these things should be to hook on newbies long enough for them to get a proper understanding of the game.
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On the other hand, giving only objectives that can really quickly be achieved can leave him wondering what's left to do in the game. I don't see how a long-term objective, among many easier ones, would be all that bad. By then, he'd have figured out the game better. The point of these things should be to hook on newbies long enough for them to get a proper understanding of the game.
This is true, too.
A lot depends on how it's all presented. If the goals all appear to be similar—with an impression of "do this stuff to learn the ropes, before you get fully into the game"—then having higher positions there is a bad idea.
If, however, it's presented as more along the lines of "beginner," "intermediate," and "advanced" goals, then we can definitely throw higher-level stuff in there.
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What would be the benefits for doing so? This seems basically like an achivements system as you see in modern games where your only reward is a little emblem in a list and perhaps some xbox gamer score, unless you gain something at the end of that it seems pretty worthless.
Hey! I resent that! I like my fame points!
Perhaps;
Objective - Get a swordskill of 30 and an honour of 50
Reward - Your character can now become a hero
Some classes are already restricted by honour and prestige, so this would only be a matter of adding some game text to make it more obvious to beginners.
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This is true, too.
A lot depends on how it's all presented. If the goals all appear to be similar—with an impression of "do this stuff to learn the ropes, before you get fully into the game"—then having higher positions there is a bad idea.
If, however, it's presented as more along the lines of "beginner," "intermediate," and "advanced" goals, then we can definitely throw higher-level stuff in there.
If you have difficult goals that take IRL years to achive atleast let them be hidden, having objectives that I can't hope to complete stare at me constantly would just be annoying
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I wanted to form a kingdom the day I joined the game. Needless to say, I was quite eager for a government position and felt overjoyed the day I got one.
Took me about 5 months. Of which, no more than 3 in the realm in question.
Many got luckier than I, too.
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I wanted to form a kingdom the day I joined the game. Needless to say, I was quite eager for a government position and felt overjoyed the day I got one.
Took me about 5 months. Of which, no more than 3 in the realm in question.
Many got luckier than I, too.
You lucky bastard! I got my first position after a year...
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You lucky bastard! I got my first position after a year...
Small realms, my friend. And democracies (or republics, anything with elections). And having one's characters all in different places.
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Small realms, my friend. And democracies (or republics, anything with elections). And having one's characters all in different places.
My first Dukedom was in Norland... While it was being killed... And probably because I was teh only one whom wanted it.