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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: vonGenf on September 06, 2012, 07:20:38 PM

Title: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 06, 2012, 07:20:38 PM
Quote
Travel Report   (1 hour, 5 minutes ago)
During your travels, you are suddenly attacked by pirates.
You draw your sword, but you are outnumbered and stand little chance. The pirates take 1514 gold coins and race away in their boat.

Very rich.

Anecdote aside, I thought robbers and pirates were disabled for priests? It's not like we can hire a unit to protect ourselves. In any case, the probability must be pretty low because I've travelled all over the place for years and this is the first time this has happened to me.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Alpha on September 06, 2012, 07:25:45 PM
Very rich.

Anecdote aside, I thought robbers and pirates were disabled for priests? It's not like we can hire a unit to protect ourselves. In any case, the probability must be pretty low because I've travelled all over the place for years and this is the first time this has happened to me.

I wish priests could hire guards to prevent getting beaten up by evil faiths and  to thwart any robbers.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 06, 2012, 07:38:24 PM
Very rich.

Anecdote aside, I thought robbers and pirates were disabled for priests? It's not like we can hire a unit to protect ourselves. In any case, the probability must be pretty low because I've travelled all over the place for years and this is the first time this has happened to me.

Same here; I've never had anything like this happen as a priest, and I regularly carry large sums of gold.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 06, 2012, 07:44:09 PM
I don't remember when that started, but I, for one, am very glad that it did. The loophole of priests being able to carry unlimited gold without risk always seemed too metagame-ish.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Velax on September 06, 2012, 08:03:43 PM
Wow, I didn't even know this game had pirates.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: fodder on September 06, 2012, 08:58:21 PM
pirates, bandits... same thing.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 06, 2012, 09:23:03 PM
I don't remember when that started, but I, for one, am very glad that it did. The loophole of priests being able to carry unlimited gold without risk always seemed too metagame-ish.

But there's no way for priests to decrease their risk.

If they're going to have a chance of robbery, they should have a means of defense– like being able to "hire guards." Some kind of paraphernalia that isn't a unit necessarily?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 06, 2012, 09:28:22 PM
But there's no way for priests to decrease their risk.

Sure there is. Don't carry massive amounts of gold.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 06, 2012, 09:45:03 PM
Sure there is. Don't carry massive amounts of gold.

But being able to be an effective courier is one of the major perks (and historically accurate bits) of being a priest.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 06, 2012, 10:50:03 PM
While true, it is something that I, personally, always considered a loophole. It should not be possible to courier huge amounts of gold around without risk.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: De-Legro on September 07, 2012, 12:05:17 AM
But being able to be an effective courier is one of the major perks (and historically accurate bits) of being a priest.

Did you ever think that though the players treated it as a perk, it was never meant to function that way?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 07, 2012, 12:48:37 AM
Did you ever think that though the players treated it as a perk, it was never meant to function that way?

No, because it's what actual Medieval priests did as well. Also, priests used to be able to get robbed, then it was changed so they wouldn't get robbed (because they were always getting robbed). I never knew it had been changed back.

While true, it is something that I, personally, always considered a loophole. It should not be possible to courier huge amounts of gold around without risk.

So priests should be able to do something to manage the risk; simply reducing the usefulness of the class is not a fix.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 07, 2012, 12:50:58 AM
Manage the risk by carrying less gold. Or, send someone who can hire guards.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: De-Legro on September 07, 2012, 01:08:49 AM
No, because it's what actual Medieval priests did as well. Also, priests used to be able to get robbed, then it was changed so they wouldn't get robbed (because they were always getting robbed). I never knew it had been changed back.

So priests should be able to do something to manage the risk; simply reducing the usefulness of the class is not a fix.

I'm sorry. Did a new rule get instituted that as long as something is historically accurate the game must follow it? Read the priest description carefully. Tom spells out they are meant to be a RP class. They are not really designed to be a "useful" class.

Was the change announced though? Priest Couriers are common enough that such a change really should have been announced.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Penchant on September 07, 2012, 01:28:01 AM
I'm sorry. Did a new rule get instituted that as long as something is historically accurate the game must follow it? Read the priest description carefully. Tom spells out they are meant to be a RP class. They are not really designed to be a "useful" class.
I get your point but on the priest side it isn't that great that they will randomly lose their money and have nothing to defend themselves with. I think a rather expensive paraphernalia be made for them.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 07, 2012, 01:43:02 AM
I get your point but on the priest side it isn't that great that they will randomly lose their money and have nothing to defend themselves with. I think a rather expensive paraphernalia be made for them.

If we were to add such a paraphernalia, it would still cost a lot to protect you against attack if you were carrying thousands of gold. Which von Genf obviously was.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: De-Legro on September 07, 2012, 01:55:12 AM
I get your point but on the priest side it isn't that great that they will randomly lose their money and have nothing to defend themselves with. I think a rather expensive paraphernalia be made for them.

Expensive how? If its just a once of cost then in the scope of things its not expensive. If it is a reoccurring cost then the priest need to have a large income and carry around gold to pay them. So they are carrying around gold just so they can .... pay to reduce the risk to carry around gold. Perhaps the system isn't random? Perhaps it targets those that carry around large amounts of gold?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 07, 2012, 02:15:01 AM
Expensive how? If its just a once of cost then in the scope of things its not expensive. If it is a reoccurring cost then the priest need to have a large income and carry around gold to pay them. So they are carrying around gold just so they can .... pay to reduce the risk to carry around gold. Perhaps the system isn't random? Perhaps it targets those that carry around large amounts of gold?

I would presume it does exactly that.

Could also have some random factor based on control/loyalty of a region; that would make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Penchant on September 07, 2012, 02:18:08 AM
Expensive how? If its just a once of cost then in the scope of things its not expensive. If it is a reoccurring cost then the priest need to have a large income and carry around gold to pay them. So they are carrying around gold just so they can .... pay to reduce the risk to carry around gold. Perhaps the system isn't random? Perhaps it targets those that carry around large amounts of gold?
Obviously vongenf had a large sum but what is the minimum needed to be considered a large sum?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: De-Legro on September 07, 2012, 02:21:22 AM
Obviously vongenf had a large sum but what is the minimum needed to be considered a large sum?

Beats me, but the fact I've not heard complaints before suggest that we are probably talking LARGE amounts. Then again I don't know when the code was changed.

I would presume it does exactly that.

Could also have some random factor based on control/loyalty of a region; that would make a lot of sense.

I always thought it was more likely to occur in rogue regions as well.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Penchant on September 07, 2012, 02:25:05 AM
Beats me, but the fact I've not heard complaints before suggest that we are probably talking LARGE amounts. Then again I don't know when the code was changed.

I always thought it was more likely to occur in rogue regions as well.
The last part could definently be since Vongenf was very likely traveling through D'hara's rogue areas.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Geronus on September 07, 2012, 05:34:43 AM
There are legitimate reasons for priests to be carrying around gold, for example to build shrines or stock temple treasuries. There's even more reason for them to do so when they're sub-classing as a diplomat. Is the threshold after which you will have a chance of getting robbed relatively high? Certainly there's no practical reason for a priest to be carrying around 1500 gold, but I like to keep at least a few hundred on my priest for using diplomacy actions and in case I need to build a shrine or restock a temple. Would he be at risk of being robbed?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: JPierreD on September 07, 2012, 06:09:02 AM
I always carry some hundreds (almost never 500 or more, though), and had never this kind of incident. Been through many rogue regions around Dwilight too.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 07, 2012, 08:56:13 AM
It should not be possible to courier huge amounts of gold around without risk.

Couriering? That was just pocket change.  8)
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 07, 2012, 08:57:27 AM
The last part could definently be since Vongenf was very likely traveling through D'hara's rogue areas.

Nope - between Mimer and Port Nebel. Port Nebel is at Core, but other stats are down the drain, so maybe this had an effect.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: BardicNerd on September 07, 2012, 09:31:58 AM
Sure there is. Don't carry massive amounts of gold.
That's not an answer. 

There are plenty of legitimate reasons people who play priests might need to carry large amounts of gold -- particularly if they are elders and need to fund a large temple expansion.  And while perhaps priests shouldn't be able to act as couriers more easily than other nobles with troops -- though I think it adds to the game if they can -- they shouldn't be less able to do so.

And just what is 'massive' amounts of gold, anyways?  For some, a couple thousand is a pittance.  It certainly is for my priest.  I'm a ruler, just wandering around in my realm I might suddenly have 'too much gold' because I didn't go turn my taxes into bonds for a while.  And my realm isn't exactly the richest, and I don't have any income other than being ruler.

'Have less gold' is not a real answer to the question of how priests can manage their risk.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 07, 2012, 01:08:29 PM
And just what is 'massive' amounts of gold, anyways?  For some, a couple thousand is a pittance.  It certainly is for my priest.  I'm a ruler, just wandering around in my realm I might suddenly have 'too much gold' because I didn't go turn my taxes into bonds for a while.  And my realm isn't exactly the richest, and I don't have any income other than being ruler.

No, sorry; just because it's easy for you to accumulate thousands of gold doesn't make it any less of a massive amount.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: fodder on September 07, 2012, 01:31:38 PM
the tax thing... did i mention there should be a toggle so you can decide your taxes come in bonds or gold whilst within realm?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Carna on September 07, 2012, 03:01:26 PM
the tax thing... did i mention there should be a toggle so you can decide your taxes come in bonds or gold whilst within realm?

I like that idea myself. If I am a troop-carrier, having gold-on-hand to pay for troops, entertainment, etc. is obviously the ideal. If I'm trading though, I need bonds, not gold. There might have been a balance issue where defending forces need to refit less often because of it, but I figure that's not a bad balance to set. Probably don't know the full implications of this myself, but I'd suggest posting it in the ideas part of the forum. Something to look at at least, I'd hope.

On topic. Religions need nobles to survive and to expand. That hasn't changed since I started playing and I doubt it ever will. Priests do not need to carry thousands or even hundreds of gold on their person. They have no reason to and while others might think its a good idea, considering that you've got that handy "Arrest Priest" option in certain cases, and Judges can liberate prisoner's gold purses, pirates and bandits are hardly the only reason why its not always a good idea. Hundreds or thousands of gold, and no guards.

That's just asking for trouble. Duh. Get a noble, with troops to actually guard against these things, to do your couriering if you don't want to take the risk. If you do want to take the risk, that's obviously your business but nothing anywhere says it has to be the best option.

Finton.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Geronus on September 07, 2012, 03:57:50 PM
I like that idea myself. If I am a troop-carrier, having gold-on-hand to pay for troops, entertainment, etc. is obviously the ideal. If I'm trading though, I need bonds, not gold. There might have been a balance issue where defending forces need to refit less often because of it, but I figure that's not a bad balance to set. Probably don't know the full implications of this myself, but I'd suggest posting it in the ideas part of the forum. Something to look at at least, I'd hope.

On topic. Religions need nobles to survive and to expand. That hasn't changed since I started playing and I doubt it ever will. Priests do not need to carry thousands or even hundreds of gold on their person. They have no reason to and while others might think its a good idea, considering that you've got that handy "Arrest Priest" option in certain cases, and Judges can liberate prisoner's gold purses, pirates and bandits are hardly the only reason why its not always a good idea. Hundreds or thousands of gold, and no guards.

That's just asking for trouble. Duh. Get a noble, with troops to actually guard against these things, to do your couriering if you don't want to take the risk. If you do want to take the risk, that's obviously your business but nothing anywhere says it has to be the best option.

Finton.

I have two words for you: Diplomat subclass.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 07, 2012, 04:13:11 PM
On topic. Religions need nobles to survive and to expand. That hasn't changed since I started playing and I doubt it ever will. Priests do not need to carry thousands or even hundreds of gold on their person. They have no reason to and while others might think its a good idea, considering that you've got that handy "Arrest Priest" option in certain cases, and Judges can liberate prisoner's gold purses, pirates and bandits are hardly the only reason why its not always a good idea. Hundreds or thousands of gold, and no guards.

On topic. Realms need nobles to survive and to expand. That hasn't changed since I started playing and I doubt it ever will. Warriors do not need to carry thousands or even hundreds of gold on their person. They have no reason to and while others might think its a good idea, considering that they can be captured in battle, and Judges can liberate prisoner's gold purses, pirates and bandits are hardly the only reason why its not always a good idea. Hundreds or thousands of gold, and no guards.

Should I do the same for courtiers now?

"You don't need it if you play like I do" is not an argument for "You shouldn't". You don't know why my character has gold, wants gold, needs gold, and it's none of your concern. Maybe you like to play a certain of priests, and that's fine, but diversity of characters is good for the game, not bad.

Sorry if I come out a bit strong on this, I should add that I don't mind that much the pirates. I was surprised that it could happen (and with good reason, since it seems it's new), but if the probability is small enough it's an acceptable risk. What I hate with a passion, though, is the "priests don't need gold" argument.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: egamma on September 07, 2012, 04:38:07 PM
What I hate with a passion, though, is the "priests don't need gold" argument.

How about the "priests don't need to carry more than 500 gold" argument?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 07, 2012, 04:46:48 PM
How about the "priests don't need to carry more than 500 gold" argument?

OK. Let me start:

Traders don't need troops.

Infils don't need bonds.

Lords don't need more than 500 CS of troops.

Rulers don't need to travel at the same speed as others.

Courtiers don't need estates.

etc, etc. I can go on like this forever. Whatever the question you are looking at, it remains a bad argument. I don't care how much gold you think I need.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: D'Espana on September 07, 2012, 04:50:04 PM
My good sir, didn't you know already that in D'Hara everyone and his dog are rich? I've seen bandits sleeping in better manors and dressing more expensive outfits than a region lord, believe me! Yeah, everyone is rich... except for myself *sob*

Meh, now on topic. I see that perhaps it would be good some sort of a special-bodyguard-only unit. Much like guild guards or the sort. Wanna take the risk? Don't pick them. Wanna spend part of the money you would never spend otherwise because you are a fat priest too much rich for your current life? Then go and recruit some guards! And perhaps some whores too. You know, for divine purposes and all that. Amen.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 07, 2012, 04:53:47 PM
OK. Let me start:

Traders don't need troops.

Infils don't need bonds.

Lords don't need more than 500 CS of troops.

Rulers don't need to travel at the same speed as others.

Courtiers don't need estates.

etc, etc. I can go on like this forever. Whatever the question you are looking at, it remains a bad argument. I don't care how much gold you think I need.

Which is all very well, but it happens to be true that there's very little for a priest to do with gold except put it in a temple (or guildhouse) or give it to someone else. Any other noble class has troops and paraphernalia, which need pay on a regular basis.

Thus, 99.9% of the time, priests are not expected to be carrying massive amounts of money around.

Furthermore, the fact that this incident is so noteworthy should tell you that it's not exactly a common thing for you to get attacked...and if you make a habit of carrying around thousands and thousands of gold, you should already know that it's not even common for that circumstance.

No one, so far as I can tell, is calling for it to be more common for bandits to attack you and steal your gold. But I haven't yet seen anything that suggests that it should be less common, either.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 07, 2012, 04:55:45 PM
And perhaps some whores too. You know, for divine purposes and all that. Amen.

What happens in Madina stays in Madina.  ;)
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Carna on September 07, 2012, 04:58:27 PM
My point was need. A Priest may want to for whatever reasons, but I'm fairly certain that there's nothing they NEED thousands of gold on hand for. Hate it all you want, though I do agree that seems a bit strong, but can you give me a 'for instance'? You didn't in your post and I was/am pulling blanks. I'll happily concede the point (what's it to me?), but not on the basis that other classes and play-styles don't need hundreds or thousands of gold on hand either because we're talking about Priests, not other classes. Sticking with Priests then, I'll stick to the fact that nothing they do requires them to do laps of their continent with more money than Gold (or whatever deity it is they follow).

Here's the disclaimer: Priests may not need thousands of gold on them, but if a Priest is fantastically rich and wants to carry all or some of that wealth with him, that's the Priest's choice. They may not need to, but I'm hardly saying they shouldn't be able to if for whatever reason. Sure there's a question of bravery or stupidity, but that's more for IC imo.

Finton.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 07, 2012, 04:59:02 PM
Thus, 99.9% of the time, priests are not expected to be carrying massive amounts of money around.

If I did what was expected 99.9% of the time, I could be replaced by a script. We're not playing tic-tac-toe, are we?

Furthermore, the fact that this incident is so noteworthy should tell you that it's not exactly a common thing for you to get attacked...and if you make a habit of carrying around thousands and thousands of gold, you should already know that it's not even common for that circumstance.

No one, so far as I can tell, is calling for it to be more common for bandits to attack you and steal your gold. But I haven't yet seen anything that suggests that it should be less common, either.

As I said, I don't really mind the pirates. I can't say it's fun, but I understand their purpose. I sure hope their purpose is not to restrict priests' gameplay just for the sake of it though.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Geronus on September 07, 2012, 04:59:46 PM
Which is all very well, but it happens to be true that there's very little for a priest to do with gold except put it in a temple (or guildhouse) or give it to someone else. Any other noble class has troops and paraphernalia, which need pay on a regular basis.

Thus, 99.9% of the time, priests are not expected to be carrying massive amounts of money around.

Furthermore, the fact that this incident is so noteworthy should tell you that it's not exactly a common thing for you to get attacked...and if you make a habit of carrying around thousands and thousands of gold, you should already know that it's not even common for that circumstance.

No one, so far as I can tell, is calling for it to be more common for bandits to attack you and steal your gold. But I haven't yet seen anything that suggests that it should be less common, either.

Once again, you're completely ignoring the Diplomat subclass. You know, the one whose abilities are almost completely driven by gold? The one that most priests take as a matter of course because it's the only subclass worth taking for a priest? Yeah, that one.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 07, 2012, 05:03:09 PM
My point was need. A Priest may want to for whatever reasons, but I'm fairly certain that there's nothing they NEED thousands of gold on hand for. Hate it all you want, though I do agree that seems a bit strong, but can you give me a 'for instance'? You didn't in your post and I was/am pulling blanks. I'll happily concede the point (what's it to me?), but not on the basis that other classes and play-styles don't need hundreds or thousands of gold on hand either because we're talking about Priests, not other classes. Sticking with Priests then, I'll stick to the fact that nothing they do requires them to do laps of their continent with more money than Gold (or whatever deity it is they follow).

I like to carry 5'000 gold because, on the right occasion, you can buy people with that kind of money. Sometimes, whole realms. Is that good enough for you?

And I maintain my point. No one needs gold. Everyone wants gold, priests or not.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 07, 2012, 05:05:00 PM
If I did what was expected 99.9% of the time, I could be replaced by a script. We're not playing tic-tac-toe, are we?

That's horribly reductionist. Just because our behaviour excludes certain things 99.9% of the time, that doesn't mean that it is perfectly predictable.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 07, 2012, 05:05:43 PM
Furthermore, the fact that this incident is so noteworthy should tell you that it's not exactly a common thing for you to get attacked...and if you make a habit of carrying around thousands and thousands of gold, you should already know that it's not even common for that circumstance.
Brance has been carrying around ~9,000 gold for months and months now, and has never been attacked. I've never bothered converting it into bonds after taxes.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 07, 2012, 05:07:03 PM
Once again, you're completely ignoring the Diplomat subclass. You know, the one whose abilities are almost completely driven by gold? The one that most priests take as a matter of course because it's the only subclass worth taking for a priest? Yeah, that one.

And if you're away from home for a month as a diplomat, using your diplomat abilities every single turn, you will use up a whopping 300 gold.

Not thousands.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Geronus on September 07, 2012, 05:07:46 PM
Brance has been carrying around ~9,000 gold for months and months now, and has never been attacked. I've never bothered converting it into bonds after taxes.

Considering what just happened to Von Genf, I would probably take some steps to fix that... It would really suck for Astrum if you lost 9,000 gold.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Carna on September 07, 2012, 05:17:40 PM
I like to carry 5'000 gold because, on the right occasion, you can buy people with that kind of money. Sometimes, whole realms. Is that good enough for you?

And I maintain my point. No one needs gold. Everyone wants gold, priests or not.

Yep. I've bought and paid for plenty of support. Its part of why I enjoy playing Republics. Get Duke. Bankroll whatever election you want. Not necessarily gain power, but gain major influence over your country. For me, that's a fairly good example. Bonds don't transfer realms, gold does in at least three ways that I've thought of off the top of my head.

Not so agreeing on the Diplomats, since they don't require hundreds, let alone thousands, of gold on person unless you're doing a Hireshmont-style tour of the continent. At least in my experience. Doubt expenses have spiked while I've been gone.

So yes, Priests might need hundreds or thousands of gold on hand, and not strictly for a predefined purpose. Having it handy, so to speak. That's if you're involved at that level, but if you have that much coin with you, you probably are.

Thanks for pointing that out, vonGenf. I wasn't advocating that Priests should have a limit on their cash-at-hand, nor trying to make an argument for more regular bandit/pirate attacks but I genuinely could not think of a suitable reason why you'd want to, let alone need to, have that much in gold instead of bonds or in the temple treasuries. Alternatively, I don't think a one in a hundred chance (picked a number out of the sky, obviously) or whatever it is negatively impacts Priests more than anyone else. If Priests face this, then warriors/courtiers without troops probably do too.

Anywho, yah, interesting discussion.

Finton.

Finton.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 07, 2012, 05:18:09 PM
Considering what just happened to Von Genf, I would probably take some steps to fix that... It would really suck for Astrum if you lost 9,000 gold.

I never said they took 100% of the gold I had.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 07, 2012, 05:19:51 PM
Considering what just happened to Von Genf, I would probably take some steps to fix that... It would really suck for Astrum if you lost 9,000 gold.
I just did! :D
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Carna on September 07, 2012, 05:20:17 PM
I never said they took 100% of the gold I had.

You didn't, but it seems most of us assumed you did. Heh, rarity factor.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: D'Espana on September 07, 2012, 05:26:51 PM
What happens in Madina stays in Madina.  ;)

Sure  ;)

I never said they took 100% of the gold I had.

Then I retire my implicit condolences. You deserve being robbed for being so offensively rich, and I ask for a code change to have this cases solved with the bandits beating up the priest, for being so presumptuous. In fact, I'm actually considering becoming a bandit myself and paying a visit to vonGenf and Indirik. Ali Baba D'Espana? Sounds good!
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: BardicNerd on September 07, 2012, 05:30:49 PM
No, sorry; just because it's easy for you to accumulate thousands of gold doesn't make it any less of a massive amount.
Yes, thank you, that was my point.  Some people end up carrying massive amounts of gold without much of a choice in the matter.  All well and good for a noble with troops, but apparently no longer for a priest.

Perhaps the risk is tiny, perhaps it is not -- given no one seems to know when this changed, the fact that it's happened once so far could mean a lot of things.

My point was need. A Priest may want to for whatever reasons, but I'm fairly certain that there's nothing they NEED thousands of gold on hand for.
Yes.  Actually, there is.  Stocking temple treasuries, building expansions to temples . . . I suppose we don't need to do those things (and certainly, not all priests do them) . . . normal nobles also don't need to fight other nobles when their realms are at war, though.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 07, 2012, 06:03:02 PM
Yes, thank you, that was my point.  Some people end up carrying massive amounts of gold without much of a choice in the matter.  All well and good for a noble with troops, but apparently no longer for a priest.

If you're getting your taxes in gold, you're inside your realm, and should be OK, IIRC.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Carna on September 07, 2012, 06:03:32 PM
Yes, thank you, that was my point.  Some people end up carrying massive amounts of gold without much of a choice in the matter.  All well and good for a noble with troops, but apparently no longer for a priest.

Perhaps the risk is tiny, perhaps it is not -- given no one seems to know when this changed, the fact that it's happened once so far could mean a lot of things.
Yes.  Actually, there is.  Stocking temple treasuries, building expansions to temples . . . I suppose we don't need to do those things (and certainly, not all priests do them) . . . normal nobles also don't need to fight other nobles when their realms are at war, though.

Yep. Normal nobles can be courtiers too if they want. Wars = wartorn regions = plenty of work for courtiers.

If a Priest can't convince and/or trust a single other noble to move gold with their troops guarding it for them, that Priest should retire. It'd be better for their family, because clearly that Priest isn't achieving much. Should they have to? No. And they don't. One in a hundred chance, I said earlier, and that was probably more often than it happens. If they want no chance of getting robbed by bandits/pirates, get someone who can hire troops. Making "guard units" or whatever seems a waste of time to me.

I think you're being ridiculously offended at the fact that it can happen, though its only happened once. If it happened every day to you, I'd say Tom doesn't like you. If it happens every day to Priests everywhere, its out of order. But its a reasonable risk when moving that much gold (and no risk to bonds, let's remember) and no one here, not even me, is saying that Priests can't have gold on hand. ITS HAPPENED ONCE. Its a means by which to take gold out of the economy, from characters that otherwise spend very little personally. If you're offended by that, by the possibility that you might lose all that gold, then don't carry it. If you want to carry that much, accept the risk. Those of us with troops marching into battle with plenty of gold to simply pay men (therefore disappearing it out of the economy) have a far higher risk of getting captured and robbed by the enemy judge.

THAT happens far more than just once.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Bedwyr on September 07, 2012, 08:42:28 PM
My point was need. A Priest may want to for whatever reasons, but I'm fairly certain that there's nothing they NEED thousands of gold on hand for.

Funding a major temple building effort in a realm with new converts.  Say, for instance, a few lords in Madina convert to SA and request assistance in building properly glorious temples.  That would be a perfectly legitimate need that Priests would and should be used for.

May I make a counter-suggestion, instead of changing the chances or what not (although this may be incredibly difficult to code, not sure): If there are friendly troops showing in the region you are in, your chances of getting hit by bandits are reduced accordingly.  So, for instance, a Priest traveling with a hundred-man honour guard led by a noted Templar would have essentially zero chance of getting robbed.  And yes, I'm fully aware that regions are large, and the Priest and the troops might be on opposite sides of one in a lot of situations, but I think it would make a resonable compromise.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Carna on September 07, 2012, 10:44:19 PM
Not knowing the code at all, I can only speculate. Insurgents are tracked. Normal police work, hanging rebels, etc. The higher that particular figure is, the more likely it is you will be attacked and robbed by bandits/pirates in that region. Rogues would be the most likely, with Core control being least likely. I don't know if this is the case, but since multiple factors are involved, I'd be fairly surprised if this wasn't one of them. Not quite what you were getting at, but..

As big as regions are - and we actually know how big these days - I march my 10 troops through a region with 10 hostile enemy troops and we'll have a battle. The odds of eleven men meeting another eleven men in the likes of the Desert between LN/LV and the Grand Duchy would, you'd think, be slim. Size really doesn't matter, so in which case if there's consistency, it doesn't have to matter for your suggestion either. If this is happening more than once in a blue moon, I like your suggestion. If its as rare as most here seem to imply (first time in a long time), is it not already balanced enough? Doesn't mean your solution isn't worth implementing either way but, for all the concern about this, its not really a fix if there's no problem to be fixed.

An Elder would be more use than gold at that point. The Lords can build the first level, pay for as much expansion as needed, but they can't expand a Temple already in their lands. Counter-intuitive if you ask me. Shouldn't a Priest be required to make holy a place of worship, but adding a wing to the Temple not such a big deal? Still, not the topic. With a bit more thought over the last few hours, the most likely reason I see a Priest with loads of gold is administration/logistics. You can't transfer what's in one local treasury to another, and often you'll have a big build-up in one Temple or a group of 'em, but not a copper in others off the beaten track or with ambivalent local lords. Or, in the case of SA taking over Caerwyn's lands with VE Temple's which need their treasuries emptied because there's no chance of them staying open when their new Theocracy is established. In such a case, a Priest is ideal because they don't have the same order of fealty as Knights or Lords and won't have troops coming in that might cause something of an incident with the new residents. In that case, they actually need to take the gold, have it on them, and risk losing it to bandits. Wartorn country makes sense, but also lower control and likely other similar factors. Having an honour-guard escort them as far north as they can go before meeting Astrum's armies would, in that context, make sense.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: BardicNerd on September 07, 2012, 10:56:16 PM
If this is happening more than once in a blue moon, I like your suggestion. If its as rare as most here seem to imply (first time in a long time), is it not already balanced enough?
Actually, this is the first time that we knew that it has happened.  Which means we really don't have any meaningful data at all about how frequently it happens.  People have just been assuming that happens as often as often for priests as it does for other nobles, because there hasn't been much reason to think otherwise.

However, given Anaris's comment, it is probably different, since if I recall correctly (and I may not), normal nobles can get robbed even in their own realm . . . but that might be me remembering wrong.  It's been a while.

In short: if this functions the same way as it does for normal nobles, priests should have a way of managing their risk that isn't a non-answer like 'carry less money,' if this does not function the same way, the devs should say so, and it becomes just a normal part of the priest class.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 08, 2012, 02:14:41 AM
Not so agreeing on the Diplomats, since they don't require hundreds, let alone thousands, of gold on person unless you're doing a Hireshmont-style tour of the continent. At least in my experience. Doubt expenses have spiked while I've been gone.

Spending 10,000 gold buttering up foreign dignitaries, making friends, supporting philanthropic causes, and generally being a goodwill ambassador is very, very easy to do. I can testify to this, having done it more than once.

Priests SHOULD be able to be ADVANTAGED gold-couriers. That works well for game balance, it works well for making the class more fun for players, it is historically accurate, and it has no evident downsides that I can think of. There's no threat to game balance in allowing a priest to carry a large amount of gold unthreatened. There's no improvement to anyone's gameplay experience reducing the utility of the priest class.

The burden of proof should not be on those of us who think we should be able to carry gold freely; the burden of proof should be on those who believe there "should" be a random chance of bandits/pirates/robbers/whatever. In what way does that improve the game? For what reason would we have that additional feature?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Bedwyr on September 08, 2012, 03:33:31 AM
I'm all in favour of there being consequences for actions.  People who wander around alone in uncontrolled lands get robbed, I have no problem with.  People who wander through wild lands with a sizable guard contingent, not so much.  I just want there to be a way to edge the odds in my favour (grins).
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 08, 2012, 03:37:28 AM
I'm all in favour of there being consequences for actions.  People who wander around alone in uncontrolled lands get robbed, I have no problem with.  People who wander through wild lands with a sizable guard contingent, not so much.  I just want there to be a way to edge the odds in my favour (grins).

I agree.

But if the options are, "Random chance of theft, about which I have no control, other than not using one of the more valuable functions of my class," and "No random chance of theft," I would think the burden of proof should be on demonstrating why we SHOULD have that random chance.

Obviouslly, yeah, I think there should just be some way to "insure" yourself: paraphernalia that you have to regularly pay would be one way to do this. It'd be double-cool if you could only "buy" them at temples. And triple cool (though as soon as I say this I realize it'd be very exploitable) if the "pay" you gave to your paraphernalia piled up at the temple where you hired them.

All of which I'm sure is fiendishly complicated: so maybe just a simple paraphernalia, "Bodyguards," or maybe "Constables."
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 08, 2012, 03:46:16 AM
Before you can state that priests should be able to run around with large amounts of gold, you should ask yourself why bandits were put in place in the first place.

The ability to courier large amounts of gold around the map at little to no risk is not something to be desired. (Just think about it. If it was intended, then they wouldn't have bandits in the first place to prevent/discourage it.) Nobles traveling with units can be attacked, imprisoned, and have their gold stolen. Priests... cannot. So if you want the ability for priests to be able to carry around massive amounts of gold, then it's up to you to justify why that particular class should have a function which it was never intended to have, and only had because no one ever bothered to implement attacks to prevent it. It's presence was unintentional, and taking it away is not removing a feature/function.

Why should the ability to courier large amounts of gold around the map be *added* to the game? I suggest that if you want it added, that you file a Feature Request to do it.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Alpha on September 08, 2012, 03:53:16 AM
All of which I'm sure is fiendishly complicated: so maybe just a simple paraphernalia, "Bodyguards," or maybe "Constables."

I mentioned this earlier. I'd really like for priests to have the option to hire guards( maybe templar). Guards would protect priests from being attacked when preaching, reduce the chance of successful arrest, and stop robberies. Maybe hire them from a sufficiently large temple?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 08, 2012, 03:55:37 AM
Do note that currently, priests cannot command any paraphernalia, and the UI infrastructure to handle them simply does not exist.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Alpha on September 08, 2012, 04:01:20 AM
Do note that currently, priests cannot command any paraphernalia, and the UI infrastructure to handle them simply does not exist.

I thought they could have scouts, I guess not. That makes it way more difficult, and probably not worth it.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on September 08, 2012, 04:07:09 AM
wow, no wonder most religions are empty state ones... you'd have to have a realm behind you in order for being a priest to be worth it.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Penchant on September 08, 2012, 04:19:19 AM
Before you can state that priests should be able to run around with large amounts of gold, you should ask yourself why bandits were put in place in the first place.

The ability to courier large amounts of gold around the map at little to no risk is not something to be desired. (Just think about it. If it was intended, then they wouldn't have bandits in the first place to prevent/discourage it.) Nobles traveling with units can be attacked, imprisoned, and have their gold stolen. Priests... cannot..
This last part is not true and quite the opposite. A unitless noble who was not a priest have it much easier for them to courier gold since priests can be arrested at any time while a unitless noble can only be arrested by chance from "patrols" after a turn and that only happens when there are large amount of enemy troops. While it is true priests can only be arrested by nobles their realm or of enemy realms, that is more than regular nobles and all of things you listed about what can happen to a traveling noble only happens from enemy realms.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 08, 2012, 04:25:37 AM
Nobles traveling with units can be attacked, imprisoned, and have their gold stolen. Priests... cannot.

Gonna stop you right there and just yell "Bull!@#$." Arresting priests is entirely possible. And priests can get attacked for preaching too. Because priests experience violence less frequently than warrior classes does not imply that we should implement new risks. Heck, both of my priest characters have been arrested and had their gold stolen (in Hireshmont's case this was quite a lot of gold) within the last few months. I'd wager the marginal risk of getting arrested and imprisoned is at least as high for a priest as a warrior class.

Priests CAN be threatened. I know of numerous instances of priests having been arrested, and many wars revolving around the issue. And an arrested priest can have his/her gold confiscated.

Thus, the risk already exists. The question is not "Should there be a risk to travel as a lone priest through possibly hostile territory with large amounts of gold?" Well, duh: and such a risk does already exist, and is highly credible, and frequently materializes, and evidently stems from and contributes to the game experience. Priests should not be, and nobody is saying they should be, invulnerable couriers. The question is: "Should the game have an automated extra risk, independent of any conflicts between players, generating additional risk?"

Maybe we think there should, but that needs justification in and of itself, and, vitally, needs justification over and above general assertions against risk-free behavior. It is not sufficient justification for the mechanic to state that there should be risk. There is risk: very serious risk. The question is why should risk materialize as arbitrary random variables without readily apparent connection to any player actions?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 08, 2012, 04:29:29 AM
A priest only risks arrest when traveling through a realm with which he is at war. He cannot be arrested by anyone else. (Your own realm notwithstanding.) A unitless noble risks being arrested while travelling through enemy regions, at a rather high rate. That makes traveling unitless through regions wifth whom you are war a very dangerous ordeal. Priests also have the advantage of mid-turn travel, and multi-region hops. And they vare not arrested while traveling, or by routine patrols. That means an active player-lead police unit must be there to intercept them. (So hero characters, and anyone not leading a police unit can't arrest them.) And a priest can be saved from arrest by their followers. All these put together means that a priest, even one at war with the realm, a *much* less risky undertaking than a unitless noble. (Just ask Allison about her dash through Terran.)
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 08, 2012, 04:35:36 AM
A priest only risks arrest when traveling through a realm with which he is at war. He cannot be arrested by anyone else. (Your own realm notwithstanding.) A unitless noble risks being arrested while travelling through enemy regions, at a rather high rate. That makes traveling unitless through regions wifth whom you are war a very dangerous ordeal. Priests also have the advantage of mid-turn travel, and multi-region hops. And they vare not arrested while traveling, or by routine patrols. That means an active player-lead police unit must be there to intercept them. (So hero characters, and anyone not leading a police unit can't arrest them.) And a priest can be saved from arrest by their followers. All these put together means that a priest, even one at war with the realm, a *much* less risky undertaking than a unitless noble. (Just ask Allison about her dash through Terran.)

And yet strangely, priests get arrested *all the time.* I'll reiterate that I've personally had two arrests recently and hundreds of gold in confiscations. Aurvandil/Falkirkian Freestate also seem reasonably able to arrest priests at will.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: GoldPanda on September 08, 2012, 11:17:33 AM
There is no report generated when a unitless noble is arrested by NPC patrols.

Arresting priests cause unrest in the local area and are generally more noticeable.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 08, 2012, 02:33:19 PM
The priests arrested in Falkirk and Aurvandil are poor examples. Neither priest was tying to hide or make a fast passage. They were both sitting in a region preaching. Sitting ducks. I think one was even in Aurvandil's capital.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Telrunya on September 08, 2012, 02:51:05 PM
And I don't think there were many followers there either.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Carna on September 08, 2012, 03:18:53 PM
And I'm fairly sure their nobles are encouraged to arrest any Priests they see as an active policy. At least that was how they operated unless they've changed dramatically in the last few months.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 08, 2012, 03:26:36 PM
And I'm fairly sure their nobles are encouraged to arrest any Priests they see as an active policy. At least that was how they operated unless they've changed dramatically in the last few months.

That's all very well, but, again, it's not possible to arrest foreign priests with whose realm you're not at war.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 08, 2012, 04:25:57 PM
Aurvandil/Falkirk also have the advantage of being willing to essentially ignore diplomacy, and declare war on anyone. Very few, if any, realms are willing to act in this manner. (I.e. declare war, arrest priest, and offer cease fire, all in the span of a couple hours.)
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 08, 2012, 07:16:58 PM
Aurvandil/Falkirk also have the advantage of being willing to essentially ignore diplomacy, and declare war on anyone. Very few, if any, realms are willing to act in this manner. (I.e. declare war, arrest priest, and offer cease fire, all in the span of a couple hours.)

Okay. So if we discount every instance where a priest can be arrested, you're correct, priests can't be arrested.

....
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 08, 2012, 07:42:02 PM
That is true. It's not what I said or implied, but it is certainly true.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: JPierreD on September 09, 2012, 12:26:52 AM
This last part is not true and quite the opposite. A unitless noble who was not a priest have it much easier for them to courier gold since priests can be arrested at any time while a unitless noble can only be arrested by chance from "patrols" after a turn and that only happens when there are large amount of enemy troops. While it is true priests can only be arrested by nobles their realm or of enemy realms, that is more than regular nobles and all of things you listed about what can happen to a traveling noble only happens from enemy realms.

A unitless warrior incurs in a chance of being robbed even with very little gold on hands and at his home region. Happened to me more than once.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Collingwood on September 09, 2012, 02:17:55 AM
They should develop a "warrior monk" sub-class as a compromise. You could still get robbed but you have a chance of putting up a fight depending on your swordsmanship.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Alpha on September 09, 2012, 03:51:42 AM
They should develop a "warrior monk" sub-class as a compromise. You could still get robbed but you have a chance of putting up a fight depending on your swordsmanship.

I might be wrong, but I don't think a warrior monk class is in the spirit of the game at all.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Bedwyr on September 09, 2012, 03:54:36 AM
They should develop a "warrior monk" sub-class as a compromise. You could still get robbed but you have a chance of putting up a fight depending on your swordsmanship.

Why does it need a subclass?  Just having something key off of one of the combat stats would work.

Actually...Warriors getting a chance to fight off the bandits, Priests or diplomats getting a chance to talk their way out of it, infiltrators slipping away, etc might not be a bad thing.  Designate a primary stat for each class or subclass, have the percentage in that stat count toward your chances...
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: BardicNerd on September 09, 2012, 03:58:11 AM
I might be wrong, but I don't think a warrior monk class is in the spirit of the game at all.
Eh . . . yes and no.  Yes in that most people hearing 'warrior monk' would probably think of something fantasy or Asian, no in that many priests and bishops led troops into battle in Europe . . . not sure how many actually fought, but I'm sure some knew how to.

So, really, the fact that priests in the game can't lead troops at all is more against the spirit of the game's setting.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 09, 2012, 04:08:19 AM
Warriors getting a chance to fight off the bandits
I'm fairly certain they already do. When Brance was a trader on Dwilight, he fought off a bandit group when traveling alone with 8 or 9 caravans. May have just been flavor text, but it did say I fought them off.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Alpha on September 09, 2012, 04:09:44 AM
Eh . . . yes and no.  Yes in that most people hearing 'warrior monk' would probably think of something fantasy or Asian, no in that many priests and bishops led troops into battle in Europe . . . not sure how many actually fought, but I'm sure some knew how to.

So, really, the fact that priests in the game can't lead troops at all is more against the spirit of the game's setting.

Oh I'm sure some priests knew how to fight. I think it would really depend on how warrior monk is defined. If it's simply a priest that could fight, like a hero/priest then sure that isn't really unusual. The cliched warrior monk RPG class wouldn't really do. For the most part players don't get special abilities, and all are normal humans, which means that in all likelihood a solo priest isn't going to fight a group of bandits.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 09, 2012, 04:42:56 AM
Here's how a priest or bishop in BattleMaster leads troops into battle:

1) Change class to a warrior.
2) Hire a unit.
3) Lead them into battle.
4) When you want to stop leading troops into battle, leave the unit as militia and change class back to a priest.

You don't have to change your character's basic drives and desires to "I fight wars all the time now! I am big burly fighting-type man!" to change their class from priest to warrior. You just can't lead troops into battle while preaching to the peasants, or while getting the game-mechanic benefits of priest-type travel.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 09, 2012, 04:51:32 AM
Why does it need a subclass?  Just having something key off of one of the combat stats would work.

Actually...Warriors getting a chance to fight off the bandits, Priests or diplomats getting a chance to talk their way out of it, infiltrators slipping away, etc might not be a bad thing.  Designate a primary stat for each class or subclass, have the percentage in that stat count toward your chances...

This seems very balanced to me.

I'm fairly certain they already do. When Brance was a trader on Dwilight, he fought off a bandit group when traveling alone with 8 or 9 caravans. May have just been flavor text, but it did say I fought them off.

Indeed, pretty sure this does happen. I did it once when I was swapped out of a priest class as well, as a hero, I think.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: BardicNerd on September 09, 2012, 07:32:10 AM
Here's how a priest or bishop in BattleMaster leads troops into battle:

1) Change class to a warrior.
2) Hire a unit.
3) Lead them into battle.
4) When you want to stop leading troops into battle, leave the unit as militia and change class back to a priest.

You don't have to change your character's basic drives and desires to "I fight wars all the time now! I am big burly fighting-type man!" to change their class from priest to warrior. You just can't lead troops into battle while preaching to the peasants, or while getting the game-mechanic benefits of priest-type travel.
Restrictions on a certain number of elders being required to be of the priest class can sometimes make it difficult, though.  But yes, obviously it would not work to have the priest class as it exists now be able to lead troops.  I'm just saying that realistically, priests sometimes did.  And I doubt it affected their ability to give sermons.

Ideally, I think, there would be some separate class that counted as a priest for elder rank purposes, could lead troops (maybe less than normal, for balance), traveled as a normal warrior, and had limited preaching options.  But I don't really expect such a thing to be added any time soon.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Collingwood on September 09, 2012, 11:31:02 AM
I might be wrong, but I don't think a warrior monk class is in the spirit of the game at all.

I would refer you to the Druids of Wales, the Conquistadors of Spain and individuals of the like of Cearare Borgia.  Your concept of a priest it would seem is more grounded in current representations.  There are hundreds of examples of ancient religions where priests were active warriors of their own faiths. 

If we look specifically at the Christian tradition, priesthood was generally the occupation of the second born son, but due to high childhood mortality both sons would be tutored in handling a sword incase the first died.  The concept of a warrior monk is sound.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 09, 2012, 12:00:29 PM
If we look specifically at the Christian tradition, priesthood was generally the occupation of the second born son, but due to high childhood mortality both sons would be tutored in handling a sword incase the first died.  The concept of a warrior monk is sound.

Nobody is arguing that you cannot have a religious warrior. Warriors can occupy Elder ranks in a religious hierarchy and be given religious titles.

The priest class is not about your position in a religion, it is about how you occupy your days. If you fight battles, then you are a warrior. As Indirik says, you do not have to remain warriors forever; there are many characters who are played as priests on most occasions, but who switch to warrior during important wars while keeping their religious rank and RP, and that's fine.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Collingwood on September 09, 2012, 12:28:03 PM
I just think there should be some innate ability for a priest to defend him/herself from bandits and the like.  As to leading armies, i suppose there is nothing to prevent the class from becoming a realms tactician or Marshal even.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 09, 2012, 12:31:53 PM
I just think there should be some innate ability for a priest to defend him/herself from bandits and the like.  As to leading armies, i suppose there is nothing to prevent the class from becoming a realms tactician or Marshal even.

Ah, sorry I misunderstood. I agree with you then.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 09, 2012, 02:52:42 PM
Restrictions on a certain number of elders being required to be of the priest class can sometimes make it difficult, though.  But yes, obviously it would not work to have the priest class as it exists now be able to lead troops.  I'm just saying that realistically, priests sometimes did.  And I doubt it affected their ability to give sermons.

And if we were going by realism, and not game balance, you wouldn't need a certain number of elder priests to keep a religion going, and any character that's trained up their infiltration skill could use it any time, and you could actually kill other characters, and...

You begin to see my point?

Also, if you're worried about changing class because of the elder priests restriction, your religion is probably already in deep trouble.

Quote
Ideally, I think, there would be some separate class that counted as a priest for elder rank purposes, could lead troops (maybe less than normal, for balance), traveled as a normal warrior, and had limited preaching options.  But I don't really expect such a thing to be added any time soon.

Nope, ain't gonna happen.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Chenier on September 09, 2012, 04:17:29 PM
Another priest nerf?

Priests were the best to carry gold... and to compensate, they are now made the worst? Warriors can at least hire troops to defend themselves, priests can't do anything.

Carrying large ammounts of gold is a great part of the priest game, once the religion has developped. Temples need funding to grow, and they are often quite far apart.

I really see no point in this mechanic, other than nerfing priests further. It's not because it's an "RP class" that it must have the worst mechanics possible.

Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 09, 2012, 05:06:57 PM
Another priest nerf?

Priests were the best to carry gold... and to compensate, they are now made the worst? Warriors can at least hire troops to defend themselves, priests can't do anything.

Carrying large ammounts of gold is a great part of the priest game, once the religion has developped. Temples need funding to grow, and they are often quite far apart.

I really see no point in this mechanic, other than nerfing priests further. It's not because it's an "RP class" that it must have the worst mechanics possible.

This is not particularly new.

It is not particularly common.

It does not have a particularly large effect.

Do you really think that priests should be able to wander around carrying thousands and thousands of gold all the time without any risk?

No, wait—that's right; in The World According to Chénier, priests should be supermen, able to do whatever the hell they want.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on September 09, 2012, 07:51:25 PM
This is not particularly new.

It is not particularly common.

It does not have a particularly large effect.

Do you really think that priests should be able to wander around carrying thousands and thousands of gold all the time without any risk?

No, wait—that's right; in The World According to Chénier, priests should be supermen, able to do whatever the hell they want.

Please look objectively at the post and not who made it. If you're going to base your decision on who made the post, don't respond at all.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 09, 2012, 08:25:59 PM
Please look objectively at the post and not who made it. If you're going to base your decision on who made the post, don't respond at all.

+1
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Perth on September 09, 2012, 09:15:33 PM
Please look objectively at the post and not who made it. If you're going to base your decision on who made the post, don't respond at all.

Hey now, this is Anaris. If his posts aren't belittling and rude, then he just isn't being himself!
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Chenier on September 09, 2012, 09:32:16 PM
This is not particularly new.

It is not particularly common.

It does not have a particularly large effect.

Do you really think that priests should be able to wander around carrying thousands and thousands of gold all the time without any risk?

No, wait—that's right; in The World According to Chénier, priests should be supermen, able to do whatever the hell they want.

I didn't say all the time, nor no risk at all. But seriously, how "broken" was this advantage? The most common use is going to fund temples... How game-breaking is this?

Was bothers me is that to "fix" a minor advantage that a seriously underpowered class had, you implemented a serious vulnerability with no ability to compensate or reduce the risk in any way (carrying less gold is NOT a solution). Yes priests were the best suited to carry large sums of gold (woohoo, look at me, I can CARRY GOLD! zomg!). So what? Did they really need to become the worst? Now, if my priest character wants to withdraw a large sum of gold at the capital to go expand a temple next door, he risks being attacked by mobs unless you does 5 treks to fund the temple? What if he wants to travel two weeks away to do this (common on Dwilight)?

Priests are an endangered species. The religion game, as I witness it, has seriously declined in interest over the years, overall. I don't see how removing the few minor perks priests had does anything to improve the game. Even when old priests still got all of their hours, travel was never longer than 16 hours and bandits were of no concern, priests were far from overpowered, and nobody was complaining about the perks.

As for "without any risk", priests are the only characters that other nobles can actively arrest. They are far from invulnerable.

I just really don't see the point.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 09, 2012, 09:41:23 PM
Hey now, this is Anaris. If his posts are belittling and rude, then he just isn't being himself!

You mean "aren't"?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 09, 2012, 09:42:51 PM

As for "without any risk", priests are the only characters that other nobles can actively arrest. They are far from invulnerable.


Shhh Chenier, Indirik told us not to think about that. It doesn't count because sometimes it's hard or has repercussions.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 09, 2012, 10:06:03 PM
I didn't say all the time, nor no risk at all. But seriously, how "broken" was this advantage? The most common use is going to fund temples... How game-breaking is this?

You're still ignoring the most salient part of the message you replied to.

This isn't new.

The code that von Genf triggered? It's been live for years.

If this is the first time you're coming across it, then obviously it's not a high enough chance to actually affect your behaviour.

So please quit whining about us "nerfing" the priest class.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 09, 2012, 10:12:10 PM
The code that von Genf triggered? It's been live for years.

If it's been there for years, then it's perfectly fine for me. I've been travelling around Dwilight for years too, and it's the first time this happens. Seeing the reaction here, it must be the first time it happened for anyone really. It's just a rare random event, it's normal.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Chenier on September 09, 2012, 10:13:45 PM
Novelty is relative and arbitrary.

Say, how much gold were you carrying, anyways?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: vonGenf on September 09, 2012, 10:33:04 PM
Say, how much gold were you carrying, anyways?

More than was stolen, let's leave it at that.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: BardicNerd on September 10, 2012, 04:08:05 AM

The code that von Genf triggered? It's been live for years.
Well, all right then.  It only took seven pages for a dev to tell us the thing that would have made a lot of people be far less worried about this whole thing.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 10, 2012, 04:20:50 AM
Anaris is lucky enough to have the tools to easily find that info. And the knowledge to know where to look. It would probably take me hours to slog through the code to try and find that, and then figure out when that change was committed. Assuming I could even find it...
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Perth on September 10, 2012, 08:32:31 AM
You mean "aren't"?

Obviously.

Fixed.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: BardicNerd on September 10, 2012, 09:09:30 AM
Anaris is lucky enough to have the tools to easily find that info. And the knowledge to know where to look. It would probably take me hours to slog through the code to try and find that, and then figure out when that change was committed. Assuming I could even find it...
Ah, alright, fair enough.

It only took seven pages for Anaris to tell us this info. . . .
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Chenier on September 10, 2012, 01:00:35 PM
Ah, alright, fair enough.

It only took seven pages for Anaris to tell us this info. . . .

I still think it's crap. Low odds of happening does not compensate for the fact that there is no way to reduce the risk. Warriors don't have troops randomly deserting if they do everything alright and keep stats high, they don't risk stumbling on their swords and accidently wounding themselves while just travelling, courtiers don't risk buildings crumbling on them for just sitting in a region. If at least we could hire guards, then if it happened we could blame ourselves for not getting any/enough if one loses thousands of gold to randomness.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: House Talratheon on September 10, 2012, 01:24:58 PM
I still think it's crap. Low odds of happening does not compensate for the fact that there is no way to reduce the risk.


The low odds are the reduction in risk it self, would you rather have the risk of being robbed everytime you travel as a priest however hiring guards would make the success rate of successfully being robbed at 5% or just have a 5% chance of ever being robbed. The risk is still the same regardless your argument is illogical respectively.

Looking at it as an equation to hire guards you'd have to increase chances of a robbery occurring, in order to balance out the present equation which would take coding time and a perk that really changes nothing. It's best to let your argument die and leave this alone.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Chenier on September 10, 2012, 01:31:29 PM

The low odds are the reduction in risk it self, would you rather have the risk of being robbed everytime you travel as a priest however hiring guards would make the success rate of successfully being robbed at 5% or just have a 5% chance of ever being robbed. The risk is still the same regardless your argument is illogical respectively.

Looking at it as an equation to hire guards you'd have to increase chances of a robbery occurring, in order to balance out the present equation which would take coding time and a perk that really changes nothing. It's best to let your argument and leave this alone.

I won't insist further on this topic, but all I'm saying is that in games, random elements that affect you negatively are a lot less fun if you have no control over them than if you have at least some control over them. That's why most major games tend to preffer random positive elements rather than random negative elements, it's just more fun. ex: How Civilization used to think about implementing Dark Ages, but after testing implemented Golden Ages instead, as it was more fun for sensibly the same kind of mechanic and effect. BM is a game, games are meant to be fun, and random negative events you have no power over aren't fun. That's all I'm saying. Just knowing this mechanic exists will make some think "Do I turn this month-long trek into a two-month trek, just to reduce the risks?" And that's no fun either, regardless of whether something bad happens or not.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Nosferatus on September 10, 2012, 05:02:45 PM
My trader character also traveled without a unit across the inner sea and in one month got attacked two times by pirates, one time barbarossa bravly defeated them single handly, the other time they took 400 or so of his shiny coins.
It also didnt happen to me much, yet i figure its quite logical, both times ocured when i was traveling to a rogue region over sea.
Must have been al those deported Madinans from the civil war luring around Paisly and Port Raviel now.
Yep, they've always been scum.

PS, i dont think its overpowered at all and must say i like getting my characters robed once in a while for beeing to greedy not to pay for protection.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Charles on September 11, 2012, 03:45:24 AM
I have often thought that it would be interesting to be able to have unitless nobles join your entourage.  I am not sure what the implications would be...aside from protection for the noble.  Not sure whether this has been brought up before.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: egamma on September 11, 2012, 08:33:23 PM
I have often thought that it would be interesting to be able to have unitless nobles join your entourage.  I am not sure what the implications would be...aside from protection for the noble.  Not sure whether this has been brought up before.

It's been rejected, because that removes player choice from the players, and encourages the 'zombie' 2nd character phenomenon.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Kwanstein on September 12, 2012, 02:07:40 AM
I won't insist further on this topic, but all I'm saying is that in games, random elements that affect you negatively are a lot less fun if you have no control over them than if you have at least some control over them. That's why most major games tend to preffer random positive elements rather than random negative elements, it's just more fun. ex: How Civilization used to think about implementing Dark Ages, but after testing implemented Golden Ages instead, as it was more fun for sensibly the same kind of mechanic and effect. BM is a game, games are meant to be fun, and random negative events you have no power over aren't fun. That's all I'm saying. Just knowing this mechanic exists will make some think "Do I turn this month-long trek into a two-month trek, just to reduce the risks?" And that's no fun either, regardless of whether something bad happens or not.

Ah, but piracy isn't random if there's a fixed percentage chance of it happening. Think of it more as a risk/reward thingy: is carrying around X amount of gold worth the 1/20 risk of being robbed? If not, then don't do it.

Civilization has these sorts of things as well: for example in Civilization 3 sending a galley into an ocean square carried a 50% risk of it sinking. However it could be rewarding, as by taking the risk you could potentially discover a new land early on in the game. Was the chance of having a galley sink in Civ 3 unfun? I don't think so, and I haven't seen anyone else complain about it either. On the contrary, I felt that it added an additional strategic element for more competitive players to take into consideration, as well as a fun gambling element for less competitive players.

My thoughts about it in Battlemaster are that it provides a minor benefit (lightly discouraging the use of priests as couriers) with no real drawback.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 12, 2012, 04:00:42 AM
My thoughts about it in Battlemaster are that it provides a minor benefit (lightly discouraging the use of priests as couriers) with no real drawback.

.... how is that a benefit?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Kwanstein on September 12, 2012, 04:27:17 AM
.... how is that a benefit?

Balance I'd guess, or maybe realism - the administration/devs/whatevers have said that discouraging priests as couriers is there intention. Regardless of the reason, it's furthering their ends and therefore it's beneficial :D
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 12, 2012, 01:11:46 PM
It is not, and never has been, intended that nobles could carry around thousands and thousands of gold without a unit with no risk.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Velax on September 12, 2012, 05:50:53 PM
Bonds can't be stolen in this way, right?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 12, 2012, 08:49:59 PM
Correct. Only gold.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Penchant on September 12, 2012, 11:42:52 PM
Correct. Only gold.
It is good to be a trader than, though I actually always have unit when leaving the realm since I also have more than enough gold on hand to trigger this, well that and if I help a lord out by killing monsters in his region he might be more willing to sell.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Charles on September 13, 2012, 02:45:27 AM
The safety of a priest should be dependent on how many people in the region follow the religion.  If a priest is traveling in a region that has no followers then the priest would not have much protection. 
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: egamma on September 13, 2012, 11:33:58 PM
It is not, and never has been, intended that nobles could carry around thousands and thousands of gold without a unit with no risk.

Are the risks different for priests versus other solo nobles?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Anaris on September 13, 2012, 11:46:54 PM
Are the risks different for priests versus other solo nobles?

Yes.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Penchant on September 13, 2012, 11:52:50 PM
Yes.
What's the reasoning that priests deserve to lose their gold more often?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: BardicNerd on September 14, 2012, 12:04:44 AM
What's the reasoning that priests deserve to lose their gold more often?
I think the risks are less for priests than other solo nobles.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Penchant on September 14, 2012, 12:33:16 AM
I think the risks are less for priests than other solo nobles.
which brings me to my next question that I should have asked first what is in the risks compared to other nobles?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Chenier on September 14, 2012, 01:28:39 AM
which brings me to my next question that I should have asked first what is in the risks compared to other nobles?

Compared to a noble with a unit, I would add, as priests can't hire anything to improve their protection...
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Penchant on September 14, 2012, 01:34:24 AM
Compared to a noble with a unit, I would add, as priests can't hire anything to improve their protection...
I mean are the odds better or worse for a priest compared to othe unitless nobles with this feature? I apologize if my typing isn't the greatest as I am getting used to doing typing on a mobile device.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Chenier on September 14, 2012, 01:36:59 AM
I mean odds better for a priest or worse for this feature?

A priest has less odds of this happening to him than a unitless noble, from experience. But as traders now work in bonds, only stupid nobles carry large sums of gold without a unit.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Penchant on September 14, 2012, 03:26:17 AM
One possible solution would to make a way for priests to get to hire body guards that are specialized against thievery and cost 50 gold a week. It will be spendy (50*52=2600 gold a year just to defend from pirates) though maybe it should only be 25 gold per week.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Kwanstein on September 15, 2012, 12:03:06 AM
Better yet, allow a priest to hire burly commoners to accompany him. They could not only help protect him from highwaymen, but from unruly mobs and soldiers attempting to capture him as well. Of course, merely being mercenary thugs their loyalty should never extend too far, and so they should be unable/unwilling to ever fight a pitched battle. I see this working best as a substitute unit that's always neutral.

Or another idea - give priests a travel option similar to those that adventurers have (eg hire ferry) except call it "hire escort" and have it drastically reduce the odds of being robbed when used.

Both options could be rather pricey, to discourage overuse.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 15, 2012, 03:09:19 AM
Actually, that's an interesting idea. An extra travel option that costs gold, and reduces the chance of theft. Like hiring a one-time escort. Make it pricey, and not always available. 25 gold for a one-region move. Too much to use routinely, but perhaps there when you really need it? Shuffling gold across the continent, say 12 regions away, would cost 300 gold.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Chenier on September 15, 2012, 04:51:18 AM
Actually, that's an interesting idea. An extra travel option that costs gold, and reduces the chance of theft. Like hiring a one-time escort. Make it pricey, and not always available. 25 gold for a one-region move. Too much to use routinely, but perhaps there when you really need it? Shuffling gold across the continent, say 12 regions away, would cost 300 gold.

The lowest-income class should have to pay ten times more than the normal-income class just to get the same protection?
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Indirik on September 15, 2012, 05:52:15 AM
This has nothing to do with income.

If you're ferrying around in excess of 8,000-10,000 gold, you can afford to pay for some protection.

And if you really are the poor priest, with the lowly income, who can't afford to pay, then you don't need to pay, and can ignore it.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Vellos on September 15, 2012, 07:40:23 AM
This has nothing to do with income.

If you're ferrying around in excess of 8,000-10,000 gold, you can afford to pay for some protection.

And if you really are the poor priest, with the lowly income, who can't afford to pay, then you don't need to pay, and can ignore it.

It should be pretty regularly available if you are carrying significant sums of gold.

It should also be calibrated in size to give it a neutral expected return at some "big but not insane" threshold; say 2,000 or 3,000– so if you're carrying less than that, it's "not worth it" unless you're relatively risk-averse, and if you're carrying more than that, it is worth it.

I think calibrating it to 8k or 10k would be excessively expensive, but calibrating it to 2k or 3k might make sense.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: Geronus on September 15, 2012, 08:15:09 AM
The lowest-income class should have to pay ten times more than the normal-income class just to get the same protection?

Lowest income? Don't know about you but my priest is quite rich. He has no expenses you see.
Title: Re: There are rich pirates in D'Hara
Post by: JPierreD on September 15, 2012, 11:29:50 PM
which brings me to my next question that I should have asked first what is in the risks compared to other nobles?

Priests only have a very small chance of being robbed if they are not in their realm (maybe worse if in rogue or hostile regions, but not sure) and they carry large amounts of gold with them.

Warriors and Courtiers without units risk losing what little cash gold they have all the time.