BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Helpline => Topic started by: Penchant on September 20, 2012, 12:23:59 AM
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My realm has just taken over a new region that we lost and the ruler wants to be lord since he was previously duke and lord but the duchy was lost and disbanded so I am trying to come up with a way for the ruler to become lord and duke of the new duchy he wants to make instead of the duchy it was forced into without having a placeholder. So far it seems impossible which is dumb as it is a perfectly legimate thing for a character to want and should be able to do. Also the realm is a republic.
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Create a duchy out of the region and appoint himself the duke of the duchy. Then appoint himself as the region lord.
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Create a duchy out of the region and appoint himself the duke of the duchy. Then appoint himself as the region lord.
I could be wrong but i believe you need a lord of the region in order to make the duchy.
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I could be wrong but i believe you need a lord of the region in order to make the duchy.
I believe so.
Which I consider to be a serious flaw of the new changes.
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Oh I forgot about that. Well that is a bit silly...
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Being able to name himself Lord of a region and Duke of a new duchy centered on it at the same time actually sounds like a reasonable thing to allow for Rulers, IMO.
Why don't you write it up as a formal Feature Request?
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But isn't it the duke's position to name lords of regions in his own duchy? (the duke of the duchy the new region got switched to)
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But isn't it the duke's position to name lords of regions in his own duchy? (the duke of the duchy the new region got switched to)
Oh, right. Damn, forgot about that.
I suppose we might be able to add a means by which the Duke could OK this...
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Yea, new regions automatically get assigned to a duchy.
However, as a ruler can promote a lord to dukeship without his duke's approval, I don't see why a ruler shouldn't be able to create a new duchy out of a vacant city without needing the duke's approval?
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Yea, new regions automatically get assigned to a duchy.
However, as a ruler can promote a lord to dukeship without his duke's approval, I don't see why a ruler shouldn't be able to create a new duchy out of a vacant city without needing the duke's approval?
+1
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i thought this is sort of intentional?
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otoh, i see no logic in a ruler being able to give away a region. the more appropriate thing would be a ruler giving a duchy away, whilst the duke gives a region away.
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He's not giving away the region, he's trying to assign it to a separate duchy for himself...
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He's not giving away the region, he's trying to assign it to a separate duchy for himself...
If the Ruler is not already a Duke, and he's trying to make himself Lord of the region and Duke of a new Duchy in that region, he needs the blessing of the Duke whose region it is already to do that.
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He's not giving away the region, he's trying to assign it to a separate duchy for himself...
i'm well aware of that. i'm saying given the logic of hierarchy where only the duke gets to appoint the lord, then the old system of ruler giving away a region, thus skipping a lvl doesn't make much sense.
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i'm well aware of that. i'm saying given the logic of hierarchy where only the duke gets to appoint the lord, then the old system of ruler giving away a region, thus skipping a lvl doesn't make much sense.
Ah, I thought you were saying something quite different.
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If the Ruler is not already a Duke, and he's trying to make himself Lord of the region and Duke of a new Duchy in that region, he needs the blessing of the Duke whose region it is already to do that.
But that doesn't make sense to me because if it was any other noble the ruler could make him duke without the rulers blessing but he needs blessing of the duke for himself? I don't see how that makes sense.
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But that doesn't make sense to me because if it was any other noble the ruler could make him duke without the rulers blessing but he needs blessing of the duke for himself? I don't see how that makes sense.
No, he can only make the Lord of the region into a duke. And only the Duke in whose Duchy the region resides can appoint a Lord.
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No, he can only make the Lord of the region into a duke. And only the Duke in whose Duchy the region resides can appoint a Lord.
So my next question, what's the reasoning behind needing to have a region lord to make a duchy?
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the lord gets promoted, not the region.
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It's a simple matter of jurisdiction. It's the duke's privilege to appoint lords in his duchy, and the ruler's to promote lords to dukes, in turn creating new duchies.
The ruler is not all powerful, nor is he intended to be. Perhaps there should be an option for the duke and the ruler to both give their consent and have the ruler assume lordship and dukedom at the same time, but I do not believe an option will ever exist for the ruler to simply rip a region out of a duchy and take the titles alone.
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It's a simple matter of jurisdiction. It's the duke's privilege to appoint lords in his duchy, and the ruler's to promote lords to dukes, in turn creating new duchies.
The ruler is not all powerful, nor is he intended to be. Perhaps there should be an option for the duke and the ruler to both give their consent and have the ruler assume lordship and dukedom at the same time, but I do not believe an option will ever exist for the ruler to simply rip a region out of a duchy and take the titles alone.
Except... that we elect our lords, the dukes normally don't appoint them.
Making your whole logic rather moot.
But as it is, I don't believe we can elect the ruler as lord without some !@#$ up happening.
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Except... that we elect our lords, the dukes normally don't appoint them.
Making your whole logic rather moot.
But as it is, I don't believe we can elect the ruler as lord without some !@#$ up happening.
I figured out how for our situation specifically buy Rurik kinda f'ed it up with ignoring, the election, the prime minister, you, and ghaundan. Ghaundan, said only him if no one else, prime minister said you, you said you, and election will end up saying you.
Edit: minor fix was done
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What I would request is that the "auto-fix" that strips a ruler of his lordship if he isn't a duke be replaced by the region automatically creating a new duchy when this is observed.
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What I would request is that the "auto-fix" that strips a ruler of his lordship if he isn't a duke be replaced by the region automatically creating a new duchy when this is observed.
I think it was suggested but the issue is it could result in many duchies in republics and democracies being created.
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I think it was suggested but the issue is it could result in many duchies in republics and democracies being created.
They can be scrapped later. At worse, have it be a special "imperial" duchy that automatically dissolves.
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They can be scrapped later. At worse, have it be a special "imperial" duchy that automatically dissolves.
That is actually a good idea, but I am unsure of their opinion on imperial duchies.
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I figured out how for a situation specifically buy Rurik kinda f'ed it up with ignoring, the election, the prime minister, you, and ghaundan. Ghaundan, said only him if no one else, prime minister said you, you said you, and election will end up saying you.
I swear I was the very first one to be surprised :o
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I swear I was the very first one to be surprised :o
Yea, I too was like :o
Paisly's the one I want, though.
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Yea, I too was like :o
Paisly's the one I want, though.
That was the solution in our situation. Make you region lord and duke because I knew you would want Paisly and leave without us needing to ask you when we got Paisly so that way there was no placeholder positions.
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That was the solution in our situation. Make you region lord and duke because I knew you would want Paisly and leave without us needing to ask you when we got Paisly so that way there was no placeholder positions.
Yea.
Not sure what Rurik was thinking on that one. I say me, Ruler says me, and dude he chose also said me. :P
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You dukes have really wicked minds. That's the reason, I guess :D
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Except... that we elect our lords, the dukes normally don't appoint them.
Making your whole logic rather moot.
But as it is, I don't believe we can elect the ruler as lord without some !@#$ up happening.
but the dukes have power to appoint, that isn't stripped away just because there's an election. (still a bit weird... )
as for imperial duchies.... there was a thread about something along these lines... but it was decided for everything to stay as is.
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but the dukes have power to appoint, that isn't stripped away just because there's an election. (still a bit weird... )
as for imperial duchies.... there was a thread about something along these lines... but it was decided for everything to stay as is.
Sure, they could still appoint someone before the ruler gets elected.
But that the ruler can't get elected without the system cock-blocking him makes no sense and is quite aggravating.
Unless the cock-block only happens at turn change after the elections, and the ruler can declare himself duke in-between? A 1-turn window would still be unfair to the player, imo, but at least there would be some possibility without forcing the use of placeholder dukes. Because seriously, we've always been against placeholders but the way this new auto-"correct" works forces rulers to use one.
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of course the ruler can be elected (if he can run, then he can be elected). what happens after i'm not certain (because i can't remember if i've seen it before). either he gets auto booted as ruler or as lord i imagine. i would favour default to being the former... because the latter would be a bit pointless.
if it's possible for a ruler to get voted in as lord and make himself duke before autoboot kicks in, then that would be a loop hole. as it bypasses the hierarchy.
as things stand atm, just because a ruler can't make himself lord and duke after doesn't excuse placeholder. it just means they should be more careful in what elections they run in or what positions they hold before grabbing the rulership. (or figure out a way to get rid of a duke and take his place)
it's not all that different from a lord getting elected as ruler and losing lordship.
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ps.. mechanics wise.. the "easiest" remedy would be to allow dukes to give (empty) regions to another duke and allow rulers to make themselves dukes of empty duchies. but i think that won't happen.
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... allow rulers to make themselves dukes of empty duchies.
I'm fairly certain that if the ruler is not already a duke, and there is an existing duchy that does not have a duke, the ruler can appoint himself as Duke of that duchy.
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when i say empty duchy.. i mean empty duchy of 0 region.
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As far as I know, that is possible. At least the option is there, as long as there is no current Duke of course.
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... you are still not getting it. creating a new duchy out of thin air with no region. that is not possible.
the rationale for doing it this way is that you will not bypass any hierarchy... whilst not letting rulers do whatever they want (someone has to give him a region for the duchy to be something other than just a name)
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I believe both of them were talking about already existing duchies or newly made duchies that happen to be without dukes (abdication, stepping down, wounded too long, etc).
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um.. the core issue is what happens when a ruler wants to be a lord too... but isn't a duke (or wants to also be a lord+duke when there are no vacant dukeship)
so i'm saying what kind of things can be added to allow that to happen.. with input from someone else other than the ruler only... (without the imperial duchy or auto creation stuff)
vacant duchies is irrelevant (unless the existing duchy is where the vacant region is)... and if the vacant region also has a vacant duke, then there wouldn't even be this thread.
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I don't see what the fuss is all about. BM is very intentionally built so that individual characters can very often not do what they please, and need others to cooperate with them, even if they hold the highest offices.
It creates conflict, communication and teamplay.
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I don't see what the fuss is all about. BM is very intentionally built so that individual characters can very often not do what they please, and need others to cooperate with them, even if they hold the highest offices.
It creates conflict, communication and teamplay.
In this case, Tom, if a ruler (Noble A) wishes to become lord of a vacant region, and Duke of a new duchy based in it, the following steps need to take place:
- Duke (Noble B) appoints Noble C as Lord of region
- Ruler elevates Noble C to Duke
- Noble C steps down as Duke and Lord
- Ruler appoints himself as Duke
- Ruler appoints himself as Lord
It's pretty cumbersome, especially the third step there.
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In this case, Tom, if a ruler (Noble A) wishes to become lord of a vacant region, and Duke of a new duchy based in it, the following steps need to take place:
- Duke (Noble B) appoints Noble C as Lord of region
- Ruler elevates Noble C to Duke
- Noble C steps down as Duke and Lord
- Ruler appoints himself as Duke
- Ruler appoints himself as Lord
It's pretty cumbersome, especially the third step there.
And I was told its also not allowed due to that using a placeholder position meaning there is no way for a ruler to become Lord+duke of a new duchy without a lord as they want to be lord.I don't see what the fuss is all about. BM is very intentionally built so that individual characters can very often not do what they please, and need others to cooperate with them, even if they hold the highest offices.
It creates conflict, communication and teamplay.
The mechanics currently have it where no conflict, communication, or team play will make this work without a placeholder position which is not currently not allowed .
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In this case, Tom, if a ruler (Noble A) wishes to become lord of a vacant region, and Duke of a new duchy based in it, the following steps need to take place:
- Duke (Noble B) appoints Noble C as Lord of region
- Ruler elevates Noble C to Duke
- Noble C steps down as Duke and Lord
- Ruler appoints himself as Duke
- Ruler appoints himself as Lord
It's pretty cumbersome, especially the third step there.
or... steps down as ruler, gets appointed as lord.. new ruler makes him duke, boots out ruler and replaces him.
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or... steps down as ruler, gets appointed as lord.. new ruler makes him duke, boots out ruler and replaces him.
Placeholder again.
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@fodder: "empty duchy" implies that the duchy already exists. If so, then the ruler *can* appoint himself duke, even if the duchy has no regions in it.
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well... that's not what i mean
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chenier.. i know it's placeholder. just stating alternative dodgy paths.
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a bit more explanation of my suggestion..
if ruler can make himself a duke by creating a regionless duchy centred on ruler only (that sound better?)... then others can protest if they don't like it. (conflict)
it does absolutely nothing by itself. only way that duchy will have a region is if another duke give it one. (lords still can't flip duchy without being physically there in a region of a duchy... no region, no flipping... so you can't undermine the duke this way and have to make someone else a duke if you want to undermine the duke)
there would be no chance of a click war to see whether the duke appoints a lord 1st or the ruler makes himself duke and then lord of an empty region 1st (which would happen if a ruler can create a duchy out of any old empty region.)
(side effect... of the region gifting part. regionless duchy that already exist can be resurrected. so if there are any hanging around, the ruler doesn't even have to created a new one.)
i suppose the downside is, a ruler might decide to make himself duke of a new empty duchy, then step down from the duke bit and make someone a duke, then another duke pass a rural region on to the new duke.. thus in effect creating a new duchy out of a rural. it's sort of a placeholder.
not sure it's a big problem, because 1) need co-operation of others. 2) slap a penalty for stepping down as duke. 3) there are ways of dealing with placeholder already?
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- Duke (Noble B) appoints Noble C as Lord of region
- Ruler elevates Noble C to Duke
- Noble C steps down as Duke and Lord
- Ruler appoints himself as Duke
- Ruler appoints himself as Lord
There is an alternative, which is to laugh in the face of anyone who runs for Ruler elections without even being a Duke in the first place, and vote for someone else while telling that noble that they should get themselves named Duke first and come back when they've grown up a bit.
It is weird for a ruler not to be able to name himself Lord, and it's because it is weird to be ruled by an unlanded noble who does not have a land base that they can grant to themselves or others. These rulers should, by definition, be weak rulers.
Even John Lackland was given land before he would rule!
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There is an alternative, which is to laugh in the face of anyone who runs for Ruler elections without even being a Duke in the first place, and vote for someone else while telling that noble that they should get themselves named Duke first and come back when they've grown up a bit.
It is weird for a ruler not to be able to name himself Lord, and it's because it is weird to be ruled by an unlanded noble who does not have a land base that they can grant to themselves or others. These rulers should, by definition, be weak rulers.
Even John Lackland was given land before he would rule!
A ruler who convinces others to elect him as lord should be able to keep the lordship without (ab)using placeholders.
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A ruler who convinces others to elect him as lord should be able to keep the lordship without (ab)using placeholders.
Please reconcile this with the current form of the hierarchy, with the stipulation that the hierarchy is not what's going to have to bend when the two are in conflict.
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Please reconcile this with the current form of the hierarchy, with the stipulation that the hierarchy is not what's going to have to bend when the two are in conflict.
Things worked great until the auto-"fix" was added in recently.
But as it is with the auto-"fix", dukes couldn't even give regions away to the ruler even if they wanted to.
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Things worked great until the auto-"fix" was added in recently.
But as it is with the auto-"fix", dukes couldn't even give regions away to the ruler even if they wanted to.
As I said: When the current state of affairs and the rules of the hierarchy are in conflict, the hierarchy wins.
Rulers can not be Lords without also being Dukes. This is not negotiable.
What may be negotiable is finding a way to get Rulers into both a Lordship and a Dukeship at the same time, if a good way can be found to do this.
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As I said: When the current state of affairs and the rules of the hierarchy are in conflict, the hierarchy wins.
Rulers can not be Lords without also being Dukes. This is not negotiable.
What may be negotiable is finding a way to get Rulers into both a Lordship and a Dukeship at the same time, if a good way can be found to do this.
That's what is being requested. As for "good", even a clumsy solution would be better than the current situation forcing the use of placeholders.
Several things have been suggested. Autmatically creating a new duchy. Taking the region out of the duchy and into a temporary "imperial" duchy. Allowing the ruler to create a duchy from a vacant city. Granting the ruler some buffer time after being elected in order to give him the time to create a duchy for himself or making himself duke of said duchy. Giving dukes the power to give regions away to the ruler.
There are a great number of possibilities. And each and every one are better than forcing players to use placeholders.
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Perhaps dukes should be given the option of appointing rulers to region lord. The region thus becomes a new duchy. Have a little checkbox that they need to click so that the duke does not accidentally do this.
Or, the ruler waits til a duchy becomes available.
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Perhaps dukes should be given the option of appointing rulers to region lord. The region thus becomes a new duchy. Have a little checkbox that they need to click so that the duke does not accidentally do this.
Or, the ruler waits til a duchy becomes available.
The problem with the waiting solution is that it encourages the use of placeholders, since new cities acquired do not immediately generate an empty duchy seat, but instead get placed into an existing duchy.
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... a duke cannot make a ruler a duke or lord? XD
seriously... what i suggested does not contradict hierarchy (at least not that i can see). does not allow ruler to do he wants without involvement/consent of others.
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to summarise..
1) allow dukes to give empty regions in their duchy to another duke
2) allow rulers to make themselves dukes by creating a new duchy that doesn't have any regions. penalty for stepping down as duke.
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2) allow rulers to make themselves dukes by creating a new duchy that doesn't have any regions. penalty for stepping down as duke.
Over my dead body. No creation of empty duchies. Never, ever.
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Over my dead body. No creation of empty duchies. Never, ever.
its just one of many suggestions to get this to work without using a placeholder
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Over my dead body. No creation of empty duchies. Never, ever.
Tom, would you be willing to allow some mechanism by which the Ruler and Duke can both agree to create a new Duchy out of a region with a vacant lordship?
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Over my dead body. No creation of empty duchies. Never, ever.
well it's only 1 really. for the ruler only. no idea how to limit it.. so penalty for stepping down. also you could make empty duchies disband automatically within... 2 weeks.
another alternative would be...
1) ruler click special link to attempt create duchy from empty region (different from your average duchy link from townsland/city/stronghold)
2) the duke gets an event message asking yes/no.
3) if yes. created. if no. too bad.
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Tom, would you be willing to allow some mechanism by which the Ruler and Duke can both agree to create a new Duchy out of a region with a vacant lordship?
I won't agree to anything that is as vague as "some mechanism".
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I won't agree to anything that is as vague as "some mechanism".
*sigh*
I was trying to see if you would agree in principle to the feature, with the mechanism to be determined later, rather than asking if you would agree to this method or that one.
Well, fine:
another alternative would be...
1) ruler click special link to attempt create duchy from empty region (different from your average duchy link from townsland/city/stronghold)
2) the duke gets an event message asking yes/no.
3) if yes. created. if no. too bad.
This seems pretty reasonable. Would you be willing to support this? Either as creating the Duchy with the Ruler as both Lord and Duke, or as creating it with just that region in it, and no Duke yet (the Ruler could then appoint a Duke, who could appoint himself Lord, or not)?
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I was trying to see if you would agree in principle to the feature, with the mechanism to be determined later, rather than asking if you would agree to this method or that one.
Missing the point there. This is all about the mechanism, because the game doesn't prevent a ruler from also being duke and lord. It's just that some ways of getting there aren't supported by the current mechanisms.
This seems pretty reasonable. Would you be willing to support this? Either as creating the Duchy with the Ruler as both Lord and Duke, or as creating it with just that region in it, and no Duke yet (the Ruler could then appoint a Duke, who could appoint himself Lord, or not)?
No.
I don't know what this is supposed to be, but it feels totally wrong. It's a gamey solution for a gamey problem, instead of something that makes IC sense. And I still don't see what the generic problem is, because all of this started due to one very particular issue. One where I personally would be comfortable to say: "Sorry you can't. Why not give someone else a shot at being duke?"
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I don't know what this is supposed to be, but it feels totally wrong. It's a gamey solution for a gamey problem, instead of something that makes IC sense. And I still don't see what the generic problem is, because all of this started due to one very particular issue. One where I personally would be comfortable to say: "Sorry you can't. Why not give someone else a shot at being duke?"
Because he was the previous lord and duke of the region, and only lost it because the region starved when you cut Dwilight's food supply?
A ruler can make himself duke of an existing duchy. A ruler can create a new duchy. Why can a ruler not combine these two?
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Because he was the previous lord and duke of the region, and only lost it because the region starved when you cut Dwilight's food supply?
A ruler can make himself duke of an existing duchy. A ruler can create a new duchy. Why can a ruler not combine these two?
You are simplifying the argument and thus missing the answer. If you go through the full process of how these happen, you see immediately why.
I'm sick and tired of having arguments on this forum. If you have a suggestion, make it and it will be accepted or rejected. This constant bickering back and forth and arguing for arguments sake is causing frustration and nothing else. So to save everyone the frustration: Bad luck, this is how it is, I will not change it, period, end of discussion.
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Because he was the previous lord and duke of the region, and only lost it because the region starved when you cut Dwilight's food supply?
A ruler can make himself duke of an existing duchy. A ruler can create a new duchy. Why can a ruler not combine these two?
his argument is missing something which is a duke can appoint lords, so why can't a duke agree to allowing the ruler become lord of one of his regions with the ruler making a duchy with him instantly duke if both want/agree to it.
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This thread is over. Please move on to another topic.