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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: Ketchum on September 27, 2012, 08:34:00 AM
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Can I post question here instead of Question and Answer there?
Since it is closely related with this case.
Can old folk home club is considered as clan? Example, the old folk home club consists of all old players in a realm.
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Can I post question here instead of Question and Answer there?
Since it is closely related with this case.
Can old folk home club is considered as clan? Example, the old folk home club consists of all old players in a realm.
What would make them a clan?
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If that club excluded others from playing and did much of their discussion OOC then I'd say yes. Though I doubt there would be any like that as the older players should be encouraging newer players to get involved.
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In my opinion (which is probably a minority opinion), if a group of older players has been in power a Very Long Time, and they show no evidence of active attempts to involve newer players, they're a de facto clan– passive exclusion is no better than active exclusion. This is especially the case if the only way you can "break into" their clan is by participation in some ludicrously odd behavior– like RPing your character as insanely sadistic or obsessed with chutney and tutus.
But, that said, I'm not in the majority on this one– I'm well aware that constant application of my definition of exclusivity would require us to break up almost any group of players that has consistently played together in different realms with different characters and achieved any significant level of power.
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In my opinion (which is probably a minority opinion), if a group of older players has been in power a Very Long Time, and they show no evidence of active attempts to involve newer players, they're a de facto clan– passive exclusion is no better than active exclusion. This is especially the case if the only way you can "break into" their clan is by participation in some ludicrously odd behavior– like RPing your character as insanely sadistic or obsessed with chutney and tutus.
Well, hang on. I think you have to be careful, because there are multiple things going on here, and potential problems of definition.
First off, how do you determine whether a given player is on the inside or the outside of a given alleged clan? Is it only being allowed to hold positions? If so, then no clan can be very large. Is it just that they interact with the player in a non-belittling manner? I think this is particularly important to be clear on, because if you're going to label any group of characters who have been in power together in a certain realm for a while a clan, then...well, like you said, you're going to be seeing clans everywhere.
Second, I think that an important part of defining a clan must be intent. If you've got four Council members who are all dedicated to ensuring that no one else gets their own positions, but also all hate each other and wouldn't lift a finger to prevent someone else from getting one of the other seats, that's not a clan, even if the effect is that other people are excluded from the upper echelons of the realm.
Finally, you're clearly once again talking about the specific case of Outer Tilog. I can tell you with certainty that you don't have to roleplay your character as insane at all to be able to participate. I think you'd probably agree that if there's a clan in Outer Tilog, I'm part of it (despite the fact that I currently have no character there)—and the character I kept in Outer Tilog for longest (I think; if not, it's gotta be close) wasn't insane, sadistic, or particularly disturbed at all. She was pretty frustrated, and having some identity issues, but she didn't eat human flesh, she didn't get off on hurting people (including herself), and she did think that reading and having fun were good things. The other thing she didn't do, however, was try to change Outer Tilog's nature. She didn't believe that just because all the people there were evil, she had to try and wreck everything they did, or rebel and take over, or anything like that.
So, if you want to play in Outer Tilog, then go ahead. Do it. The only restriction on your character's personality or RP is that they have to at least be able to tolerate the kind of atmosphere that you already know characterizes Outer Tilog.
Thinking you could do otherwise is like thinking you could rise to power in Riombara while being actively and vocally anti-Republic, or in Astrum while actively and openly trying to destroy Sanguis Astroism. It's just muleheaded stupidity.
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I really feel like the original question has been asked and answered a half dozen times in the recent past, and we're not really going to cover much new ground here.
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Thinking you could do otherwise is like thinking you could rise to power in Riombara while being actively and vocally anti-Republic,
Oh yeah, NOBODY has ever done that......
But yeah, I basically do think the golden oldies of BM should all be kicked out of our realms and forced to play with different people.
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Oh yeah, NOBODY has ever done that......
But yeah, I basically do think the golden oldies of BM should all be kicked out of our realms and forced to play with different people.
Agreed.
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What would make them a clan?
Hmm, I can think of 2 things.
1) Exclude people from their IC messages half the time?
2) Secret society should not be mistaken as clan, eh no?
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I don't think there's a rule that states you have to copy everyone on all letters. Otherwise, message groups, religions, guilds, and secret societies wouldn't exist.
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Oh yeah, NOBODY has ever done that......
But yeah, I basically do think the golden oldies of BM should all be kicked out of our realms and forced to play with different people.
Well now whom is forcibly OOC excluding players ;)
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Well now whom is forcibly OOC excluding players ;)
.... huh?
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Case-by-case.
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.... huh?
I believe by saying 'I basically do think the golden oldies of BM should all be kicked out of our realms and forced to play with different people' he got out of it 'forcibly OOC excluding players' by way of forcing them to move.
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I believe by saying 'I basically do think the golden oldies of BM should all be kicked out of our realms and forced to play with different people' he got out of it 'forcibly OOC excluding players' by way of forcing them to move.
Yeah... except it's the people with the greatest tendency to be exclusive that would be removed. And by breaking up those cliques, "total exclusivity" would decline.
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Until new ones inevitably formed as it's part of human nature to create circles of those you can trust. Or believe you can trust.
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So do these super exclusive cliques actually exist anywhere or is all of this discussion a waste of time based on a theoretical situation that doesn't actually exist?
If they do, report it properly and have it dealt with as it should be as something that is detrimental to the game.
If they don't, why are we talking about it?
As shown in the recent case that was raised, the people making the accusations within the game refused to make any official complaints about it and, when one of those accused raised the complaint himself, none of those complainers within the game came on to give any evidence about what they were saying (despite being encouraged to multiple times within the game).
Just because people don't like something that happens in game to their character doesn't default make it OOC reasoning. Occasionally though, those on the receiving end of an action don't like to accept that it's all IC motivated and insist there must be OOC collusion and clanning...
So, as I said in my initial response to the question - Can old folk home club is considered as clan? - that was asked:
If that club excluded others from playing and did much of their discussion OOC then I'd say yes. Though I doubt there would be any like that as the older players should be encouraging newer players to get involved.
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So do these super exclusive cliques actually exist anywhere or is all of this discussion a waste of time based on a theoretical situation that doesn't actually exist?
Yes, in most realms, IMHO.
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Yes, in most realms, IMHO.
Human nature exists in most realms. I would not, however, say that super exclusive cliques exist in most places.
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Yes, in most realms, IMHO.
To the detriment of the realm?
Give examples... So far in all of the discussion it has only been about theoreticals. No actual situations have been mentioned at all. Vague comments with nothing to back them up serve no purpose whatsoever.
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It sounds like some are upset that long standing characters rise to positions of prominence over newcomers. Isn't that how things just work? Honestly, if I spent years serving a realm loyally and someone who had been in the game only a few weeks or months was appointed over me simply because he was a new player I would be angry.
I've come across this mindset in Westmoor. Newer players get annoyed that they "aren't recognized". I.E. they aren't given lordships immediately when one opens up. Why should they be rewarded over someone who served loyally for years?
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Personally, I'm against giving someone a position just because they've been in the realm forever. It can be a point in your favor, but you'd better have something more than that if you want a spot. This is doubly true if the position is a good one, like Margrave or Duke.
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Oh, I can agree with that completely. I'd never give a position just because someone's been in the realm for awhile. They either have to stand out or have shown continual good service to the realm.
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Personally, I'm against giving someone a position just because they've been in the realm forever. It can be a point in your favor, but you'd better have something more than that if you want a spot. This is doubly true if the position is a good one, like Margrave or Duke.
Generally, I actually am more likely to oppose someone's promotion f they're a golden oldie.
To the detriment of the realm?
Give examples... So far in all of the discussion it has only been about theoreticals. No actual situations have been mentioned at all. Vague comments with nothing to back them up serve no purpose whatsoever.
Examples?
Terran generally works hard to avoid this problem, but I know I had some concerns we might have a bit of it going on a few months ago when we had a big influx of new players. Hence one of the major motivations for Hireshmont taking a step back.
Eston is absolutely like this– a handful of players (largely with two characters each in Eston) have held effectively the same positions for approximately forever. It's hilarious if you look at their HighCouncl– they're basically all, like, 65+ years old. Makes for some fun RPing I guess, but annoying to play alongside.
Riombara when it didn't have secessionist elements agitating seemed like this to me.
Norland was definitely like this.
Most realms I've played in, to me, seem to have undue concentration of power based in large part on OOC friendships. Not to pick on someone specifically, but the relationship between the Bellator and Anaris families (i.e. players) is a great example.
Or, another example, the Vellos and Perth families– we are definitely OOC friends, and that definitely does affect how we play. I know we both try to mitigate it, but we don't do nearly a well enough job.
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another example of ooc relations/friendships can effect how in game families relate to one another.
The Thatcher family and the Dragul Family. We are married and so tend to support one another alot. But we are only on one world together. that is is Dwilight and my wife is my duchess to the chain of command is very clear and reasonable to assume that I will support her no matter what she does...... well almost anything... LOL
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we are only on one world together.
So it's far less of a problem.
My concern is that many players who have been around for a long time repeatedly play with the same people. Or refuse to do so.
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People tend to find people they enjoy playing with, and stick with them. I know that when I have deliberately chosen new realms with some new characters, I have met with cold shoulders, beligerence, and even some outright OOC hostility. Needless to say, I will tend to avoid those people again in the future. That won't stop me from trying a new place or two, but I will probably try to find places they are not. So it will be more likely that I end up with the same subset od realm-mates again.
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As one becomes known, one's reputation tends to proceed you. I have found that if I settle where I don't know any friendly faces, people who have negative opinions of my family will hinder me greatly and will be free to spread their influence against me.
Newbies have the luxury of being able to go anywhere with a clean slate, nobody really caring about them negatively (some will indeed make them freebies for being new).
"Established" families don't have that same luxury. I've had characters blocked from very basic integration into a realm just because of what another character of mine (never) did on another continent. I owe my influence purely to my extensive knowledge of the places I play in and, especially, the people who support me. Without the latter, I'm nothing. As such, I'll use my influence when possible to get these people in positions of power. On the other hand, I note what others say, and attempt to spot those who have agendas contrary to mine, in order to block these people from getting up the chain. Though I've never seen people accusing me of being exclusive, I could imagine that on the outside, some people may think I'm part of some OOC clique that doesn't want to share power. But in truth, I don't have OOC ties with any of the players I play with anymore, since long ago, and all of my "friends" were made IC due to them being like-minded, loyal to me, or otherwise supportive of my causes.
I think that a lot of "cliques" can be seen as exclusive to those on the outside who don't understand them. Not all players are meant to get along and become allies, however, and it's normal for like-minded people to cling together to better push their agendas. It's human nature. And it's perfectly alright.
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t when I have deliberately chosen new realms with some new characters, I have met with cold shoulders, beligerence, and even some outright OOC hostility.
And that is a problem and it is contrary to the social contract, and it is exclusive.
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Terran generally works hard to avoid this problem, but I know I had some concerns we might have a bit of it going on a few months ago when we had a big influx of new players. Hence one of the major motivations for Hireshmont taking a step back.
Terran is interesting. On one hand, we certainly have a circle in power that has been in power for some time. On the other hand, Lordships are a revolving door and any new character who is in the realm for a month has a very good chance of gaining a Lordship fairly easily, and because Terran is a Republic being a Lord gets you on the Senate meaning you automotically can have an influential voice in how the realm behaves and operates--if you want to. What's most surprising is that most people fail to be active or talkative in the Senate, and therefore fail to become very influential.
Heck, even the gov't positions aren't that hard to get into. The last election we actually have a bit of a hard time even getting people to want to run for some of them.
Eston is absolutely like this– a handful of players (largely with two characters each in Eston) have held effectively the same positions for approximately forever. It's hilarious if you look at their HighCouncl– they're basically all, like, 65+ years old. Makes for some fun RPing I guess, but annoying to play alongside.
Geez, Eston is awful. Vellos is not exaggerating. The circle of power in Eston is literally about 4-5 families, and yes all with 2 characters in the realm. Most all of the characters are 65+, with a few well into their 70's or 80's. A couple even exclusively play in Eston with no characters on other continents or realms. They favor each other strongly, and would never tolerate one of the others losing their key positions or powers. Most of them have been Duke of almost every city in Eston at some point, held government positions at some point, or even been King at some point. Also, most hold multiple titles "Duke, Marshal, Sponsor, Gov't Member." Finally, if one of them does retire or kill off a character, the new young "son" or "young cousin" or "nephew" character they bring in is automatically favored for appointments, etc. because "their father taught them everything he knew about running a realm."
Now, none of it illegal or against the rules, obviously. And I don't think they're a clan or any OOC communication goes on (they don't even need to do that. They don't even need to communicate that many things IC to each other, cause they all just know they have each other's backs.) They all know and address each other by name OOC, simply because they know each other cause they've been playing together for so long. But wow, it is crazy entrenched and there is hardly anything you can do about it.
Or, another example, the Vellos and Perth families– we are definitely OOC friends, and that definitely does affect how we play. I know we both try to mitigate it, but we don't do nearly a well enough job.
This is true. Though I feel we've done pretty well over the years. I mean the only characters who have really been friends is Kale and Hireshmont II, and those guys have some legit history. From Melodia, to trying to rebuild Melodia, to building Terran from the ground up into what it is today.
Other than that, there isn't much. Kerwin and Cyrilos, but only very recently, and only marginally and too no gain. Actually, the opposite.
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But when it comes to new players, if I am in a position of power I am always looking for the new guys. Honestly, I seek out new people hoping they will be someone I can 1)make friends with and 2) rely on for things. Reliable people are hard to find and if I can find an enthusiastic youngster wanting to contribute, that can only mean goods things for both of us. I support him into positions/power quickly, we both gain a political ally/friend, and I gain a reliable character for military things, or even politics.
I have done this in Terran to great effect. The current Chief Magistrate of Terran, Alura, being the best example. As soon as that player joined the game and put a character in Terran I was in contact with the character. As I encouraged their own excitement about the game, I realized their potential and quickly helped them up the ladder by making her my Vice Marshal, and not long after the Marshal. Supported her into an important Lordship in my Duchy (whose loyalties to myself and the Duchy I push strongly), financially supported her, and bam the player was hooked to the game and we had both benefited from the relationship. Now the character is ruler of Terran.
Older characters, on the other hand, are much harder to play with. They have their own agendas and designs. Seek conflict. And generally aren't as beneficial to you unless you have a prior established relationship.
Honestly, I don't know why more people don't eagerly jump onto and actively fight (for influence) over the new guys. Sure, a lot aren't responsive, or don't show interest. But many do. And frankly, more would show more interest and "get into the game" if they were engaged by people right from the start.
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I know that when I have deliberately chosen new realms with some new characters, I have met with cold shoulders, beligerence, and even some outright OOC hostility. Needless to say, I will tend to avoid those people again in the future.
:o
I thought that was just me.
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I've been following this a bit. Here's my "official" two cents:
No, "old guys clubs" are NOT clans. A clan is something that has an OOC element to it. An "old guys club" running a realm might still be a problem, if they are excluding others. But they are not a clan by the definition I use. This is especially true for the "official" position on clans that basically says "it's not illegal to have friends or play with them, but please don't exclude others".
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I've been following this a bit. Here's my "official" two cents:
No, "old guys clubs" are NOT clans. A clan is something that has an OOC element to it. An "old guys club" running a realm might still be a problem, if they are excluding others. But they are not a clan by the definition I use. This is especially true for the "official" position on clans that basically says "it's not illegal to have friends or play with them, but please don't exclude others".
Did you just contradict yourself in the same post?
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But when it comes to new players, if I am in a position of power I am always looking for the new guys. Honestly, I seek out new people hoping they will be someone I can 1)make friends with and 2) rely on for things. Reliable people are hard to find and if I can find an enthusiastic youngster wanting to contribute, that can only mean goods things for both of us. I support him into positions/power quickly, we both gain a political ally/friend, and I gain a reliable character for military things, or even politics.
Indeed, giving newbies a freebie is often a really easy way to make an ally, because he's much more grateful than the guy who has been there forever and probably already has an opinion of you.
I also do this.
But I don't have the time and energy I had three years ago. As such, I tend to wait for them to say or do something noteworthy, such as speak out against someone I dislike or in favor of a cause I support. There was just too many newbies over the years who couldn't even be arsed to reply at anything, plus all of those who just autopaused, that I don't really have the will, personally, to do any of the first steps anymore.
I do feel it is totally normal, however, that they should at least show some interest in interacting with others if they wish to get anything from them. Mute newbies are of little interest, because 1) you can't tell what side they'd be on in any given conflict and 2) even if they did support you, they wouldn't contribute to making stuff interesting.
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Hmm, as long as the old folk home club, the grand oldies players do not exclude other new players, I too personally feel fine.
It also help if the newbie players are more talkative than keeping quiet all the time when in the realm.
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Hmm, as long as the old folk home club, the grand oldies players do not exclude other new players, I too personally feel fine.
It also help if the newbie players are more talkative than keeping quiet all the time when in the realm.
Which most of them do.
Some of them are just scared or intimidated, though. We really need to spam them with big bold messages suggesting that they interact with others and that they will not be devoured for daring to speak with people in power.
I know I had this unhealthy fear of being considered unworthy, when I was new. Mind you, things were different back then, and I really was kind of unworthy to these people who had ruled the realms since the creation of the game (or almost)....
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Most realms I've played in, to me, seem to have undue concentration of power based in large part on OOC friendships. Not to pick on someone specifically, but the relationship between the Bellator and Anaris families (i.e. players) is a great example.
You keep bringing this up, and I honestly have no idea where you're getting it from. Yes, I enjoy playing with Tonie and his characters and mine interact a lot. But a) they don't always actually get along, and b) there are only two instances in which they have actually held power together. One was in Svunnetland, where they both got so fed up with the state EricSP had left the realm in that they left the game (retired) together, and the other was in Pian en Luries—where they were opposed by a significant faction, and where I'm almost positive you never came. Furthermore, the only active conspiracy to keep people out of power they've participated in was in Pian en Luries, where said people were also actively working to undermine Alanna's reign. Finally, the other thing that characterizes the relationships between our various characters is that they tend to be each other's only political ally. It's really, really hard to deny people positions of power when there are only two of you working to do so.
I'm really peeved that you seem to somehow have it in for the two of us, when all we've ever done is enjoy RPing together, and I'm nearly certain we've never actually denied you anything when we've been in any kind of position of power together.
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Did you just contradict yourself in the same post?
No.
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I've been following this a bit. Here's my "official" two cents:
No, "old guys clubs" are NOT clans. A clan is something that has an OOC element to it. An "old guys club" running a realm might still be a problem, if they are excluding others. But they are not a clan by the definition I use. This is especially true for the "official" position on clans that basically says "it's not illegal to have friends or play with them, but please don't exclude others".
You basically said that you don't consider "old guys clubs" clans, and said that they might be a problem if they exclude others. Then you said that part of the of official rule on clans is "it's not illegal to have friends or play with them, but please don't exclude others." Wouldn't, by that definition, mean that any old guys club that excluded others also be a clan?
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I probably need to make more clear what the OOC problem is:
An "old boys" club in-game is something that you can break into. You can become part of the group by nothing else but playing the game.
And OOC clan, a group of friends from school, or whatever, is usually more difficult to join. Either you can't at all (without, say, moving to their country and going to their school) or you need to take steps outside the game, such as joining a clan, signing up at yet another forum, etc. etc.
The important part for me in all of that is "...by nothing else but playing the game." - we have guilds, secret societies and other groupings inside the game, so obviously it is perfectly ok to form groups inside the game. Noticed? inside the game is the keyword here. You can become a member of a guild in-game, you can join the "old boys network" in-game - no activities outside the game required.
And that's what matters to me. I would definitely come hard down upon an in-game guild that only allows people from, say, the same school into full member ranks. That's an OOC clan (precisely, an in-game representation of an OOC clan). But a guild that tries to keep power in some realms among its ranks, but that you can join and advance in without any OOC restrictions, that is just political intrigue and scheming.
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You basically said that you don't consider "old guys clubs" clans, and said that they might be a problem if they exclude others. Then you said that part of the of official rule on clans is "it's not illegal to have friends or play with them, but please don't exclude others." Wouldn't, by that definition, mean that any old guys club that excluded others also be a clan?
All chicken are birds, but not all birds are chicken.
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I probably need to make more clear what the OOC problem is:
An "old boys" club in-game is something that you can break into. You can become part of the group by nothing else but playing the game.
But that isn't the case.
Consider Eston, as perhaps a uniquely extreme example– it doesn't matter if you're in Eston for two RL years, because the "old boys club" will always be there 3-5 years longer. You will never be their equal.
Now maybe we could argue that the difference eventually approaches irrelevance after a few years– sure, I'll buy that. But here's the problem: you're arguing that it's not exclusive because it only takes, what 3 YEARS to be included? Holy !@#$ man– at what point does it become exclusive? A decade to be initiated?
Exclusivity is exclusivity– maybe not a "clan" per se, but still certainly not playing with friends.
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Exclusivity is exclusivity– maybe not a "clan" per se, but still certainly not playing with friends.
It's like playing a game with a friend you've known for 10 years and one you've known for 10 weeks.
My suggestion? Get out of Eston, and go join the Barony of Makar. Sordnaz likes to randomly put fairly new people into positions, because he's a cool guy.
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My suggestion? Get out of Eston, and go join the Barony of Makar. Sordnaz likes to randomly put fairly new people into positions, because he's a cool guy.
Most of us in power try to keep lordships pretty fresh, though the realm council can be pretty stagnant at times (though there aren't typically any complaints about that and Sordnaz being ruler forever hasnt ever really been contested). I recently stepped down after forever to let another player take judge, our recent General went mad after being replaced, and our banker changes hands more often then the others however.
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Most of us in power try to keep lordships pretty fresh, though the realm council can be pretty stagnant at times (though there aren't typically any complaints about that and Sordnaz being ruler forever hasnt ever really been contested). I recently stepped down after forever to let another player take judge, our recent General went mad after being replaced, and our banker changes hands more often then the others however.
Banker hasn't changed very often since I took up the job, though. And, honestly, it's a !@#$ty position that I don't see Hang giving up any time soon... it gives me great incentive to find ways to make it less !@#$ty.
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My suggestion? Get out of Eston, and go join the Barony of Makar. Sordnaz likes to randomly put fairly new people into positions, because he's a cool guy.
The sounded off, considering the guy has been in power since the dawn of time.
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The sounded off, considering the guy has been in power since the dawn of time.
There are more positions than Ruler.
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There are more positions than Ruler.
I do not doubt the statement to be true.
It still sounds off, however.
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I do not doubt the statement to be true.
It still sounds off, however.
Has anyone actually tried to dethrone the old fella?
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Has anyone actually tried to dethrone the old fella?
Ha, as if anyone would willingly step into the quagmire that is Atamaran politics. There are a very small few that were willing to run for the position in his times of inactivity, but rebellion and sedition and such has always been rooted out very violently.
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Whoa, I never thought my starting post will generate this amount of discussion :D
Thank you for answering my questions and doubts.
There is one more question.
If an oldie player stay very very long in his post/rank, and no amount of effort can displace him, will it be tantamount to "old folk home club considered as clan"?
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Whoa, I never thought my starting post will generate this amount of discussion :D
Thank you for answering my questions and doubts.
There is one more question.
If an oldie player stay very very long in his post/rank, and no amount of effort can displace him, will it be tantamount to "old folk home club considered as clan"?
protesting or if he is not ruler convince ruler to make position elected and get someone else elected, or finally nice infil strike to put him out long enough so he loses position. If you can't do any of those then he (or she) shouldn't be removed.
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Whoa, I never thought my starting post will generate this amount of discussion :D
Thank you for answering my questions and doubts.
There is one more question.
If an oldie player stay very very long in his post/rank, and no amount of effort can displace him, will it be tantamount to "old folk home club considered as clan"?
"No amount of effort can displace him" usually means that he has solid support.
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Whoa, I never thought my starting post will generate this amount of discussion :D
Thank you for answering my questions and doubts.
There is one more question.
If an oldie player stay very very long in his post/rank, and no amount of effort can displace him, will it be tantamount to "old folk home club considered as clan"?
The fact that the game has "Tyranny" and "Monarchy" as government options should answer that, don't you think?
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This is especially the case if the only way you can "break into" their clan is by participation in some ludicrously odd behavior– like RPing your character as insanely sadistic or obsessed with chutney and tutus.
This kind of sounds like Outer Tilog. They are such an oddball.
I simply can't get used to their weird language. No idea whether being insane is a requirement or not.
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This kind of sounds like Outer Tilog. They are such an oddball.
I simply can't get used to their weird language. No idea whether being insane is a requirement or not.
Its really not that hard... Boring.. But not hard... I tended to just find them unamusing...
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Its really not that hard... Boring.. But not hard... I tended to just find them unamusing...
I'm of the same opinion.
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I'm of the same opinion.
Very nice and constructive from the past few posters there... I've been in a few realms that I've found incredibly dull, instead of going on the forums and slagging them off though I've just left them. Just because I don't like a realm doesn't mean everyone wont like it and the fact that so many people play in them says that a lot more people enjoy it there than don't, so being negative about a realm just because an individual doesn't like it is just a bit petty really...
You don't like Outer Tilog, fine, move on, find somewhere you do like, don't insult it without good reason though, as a lot of people have put a lot of time and effort into it and it's very popular to a lot of people, and undermining the efforts of others just because you as an individual don't like it is unfair to the players who do enjoy it.
Also, as has been stated before, you can play a normal noble and succeed there, there will just be weirdness going on around you. As ruler there, although other characters might talk of Rakaarox as if he's also one of the crazies, really he's no different to just a normal devious noble in any other realm. There are characters that describe themselves as skeletons on wolf beasts, which can just as easily be viewed as an incredibly skinny person and an incredibly hairy person with bad teeth.
If you don't like a realm, do something about it or leave. Knowing if you try to do something about it and don't have support then it probably won't work out well for your character. That's not clanning, that's just the way of the world, so let's get this back on topic rather than just insulting realms we don't like shall we?
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Very nice and constructive from the past few posters there... I've been in a few realms that I've found incredibly dull, instead of going on the forums and slagging them off though I've just left them. Just because I don't like a realm doesn't mean everyone wont like it and the fact that so many people play in them says that a lot more people enjoy it there than don't, so being negative about a realm just because an individual doesn't like it is just a bit petty really...
You don't like Outer Tilog, fine, move on, find somewhere you do like, don't insult it without good reason though, as a lot of people have put a lot of time and effort into it and it's very popular to a lot of people, and undermining the efforts of others just because you as an individual don't like it is unfair to the players who do enjoy it.
Also, as has been stated before, you can play a normal noble and succeed there, there will just be weirdness going on around you. As ruler there, although other characters might talk of Rakaarox as if he's also one of the crazies, really he's no different to just a normal devious noble in any other realm. There are characters that describe themselves as skeletons on wolf beasts, which can just as easily be viewed as an incredibly skinny person and an incredibly hairy person with bad teeth.
If you don't like a realm, do something about it or leave. Knowing if you try to do something about it and don't have support then it probably won't work out well for your character. That's not clanning, that's just the way of the world, so let's get this back on topic rather than just insulting realms we don't like shall we?
I don't mean to slander. All I'm saying is that it isn't universally exciting. It suits a very specific play style. And this isn't properly advertised by those who say how great it is. It's not just "evil" RP, it's "evil" humour RP. I find evil characters and factions to be quite fun. However, Outer Tilog was over the top. Nothing was serious. Everything was a big joke. I personally don't find it amusing to RP in a context where everything is a gag.
It's great for some people though. I'm not saying it's a terrible realm. I find it overrated, but still much better than most realms out there.
Sorry if I offended you.
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I don't mean to slander. All I'm saying is that it isn't universally exciting. It suits a very specific play style. And this isn't properly advertised by those who say how great it is. It's not just "evil" RP, it's "evil" humour RP. I find evil characters and factions to be quite fun. However, Outer Tilog was over the top. Nothing was serious. Everything was a big joke. I personally don't find it amusing to RP in a context where everything is a gag.
It's great for some people though. I'm not saying it's a terrible realm. I find it overrated, but still much better than most realms out there.
Sorry if I offended you.
Asside from the nothing ever moves ever in the colonies, it was one of the more talkative realms i've been in for a while but as Chenier said.. nothing was serious and the humour was all "ooh look at me i'm torturing my men I'm eviiillllll lol herpderp" It was so uncreative it was kind of annoying. Good place for thulsoman judges though.. No matter how much you mutilate other players they probably will just attach weapons to there dissapeared limbs and torture you back...