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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Lanyon on October 07, 2012, 10:31:07 PM

Title: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 07, 2012, 10:31:07 PM
Since this war hasn't had a topic, well at least before now, and has been hijacking various other threads, I decided to make this thread for all your war predictions, senseless rambling, Crazy glaumringing, and Aurvandil hate.

First up, What do y'all think will happen now that Aurvandil has taken paisly and D'Hara no longer has any geographic connection to the Vienorsmoot?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: fodder on October 07, 2012, 10:47:21 PM
it just gained an infinitely wide connection called sea travel. albeit not actually live yet.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 07, 2012, 11:33:22 PM
Well, Mendicant told Gornak that he was going to create a new realm in Paisly, and destroy D'Hara as well. So expect both of those things, although probably not in that order.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 08, 2012, 01:12:31 AM
Aurvandil and D'Hara haven't been at war now for a while.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on October 08, 2012, 01:42:02 AM
Aurvandil and D'Hara haven't been at war now for a while.
Yeah, I have kinda been wondering why it's assumed D'hara will die when we are at a cease fire currently, though Aurvandil is known for declaring war on the fly, IMO.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 08, 2012, 01:43:18 AM
It amuses Mendicant to be obliging to D'Hara when they ask nicely.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 08, 2012, 05:29:12 AM
From what I heard ingame it's possible we'll leave D'Hara alive. Terran on the other hand...prepare the funerals pyres boys ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 08, 2012, 07:52:46 AM
and Aurvandil hate.

I hate Aurvandil. More than anything ever.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 08, 2012, 06:56:30 PM
Terran on the other hand should have stuck with Asylon instead of throwing us under the bus.

Oh chrissakes get off your soap box already.

The two of us could have fought off both the Astroists and Aurvandiil.

Yeeeeaaahhhhh... pass the doobie, brotha man!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 08, 2012, 07:06:13 PM
From what I heard ingame it's possible we'll leave D'Hara alive. Terran on the other hand...prepare the funerals pyres boys ;)

Mendicant rather likes D'Hara. The summary of his talks with Gornak were demands/threats that D'Hara accept peace, food and aid (Since D'Hara was starving quite hideously by this point and were attacked by the Lurian's) and to stop dying or Aurvandil would just camp in D'Hara's cities to try and force them to sign a peace treaty.

I hate Aurvandil. More than anything ever.

Yes, we know. It's all you ever seem to go on about on the Dwilight section.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 08, 2012, 07:32:06 PM
Honestly, I don't want Terran to stop fighting until we're able to whip some discipline into our army. Terran needs to fight a real war, even if we lose, just so we can reprogram our army from "routine monster clearing missions" to "real fighting force." We'll see if we can accomplish that....
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 08, 2012, 07:38:30 PM
Honestly, I don't want Terran to stop fighting until we're able to whip some discipline into our army. Terran needs to fight a real war, even if we lose, just so we can reprogram our army from "routine monster clearing missions" to "real fighting force." We'll see if we can accomplish that....

Wouldn't that have been more preferable with Kabrinskia? As you had fairly similar army size, which would empathise the importance of strategy, unit organisation and personal discipline as key and integral to winning each battle. Unless Aurvandil is better due to the "higher danger factor" since Aurvandil's armies don't mess around.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 08, 2012, 07:42:05 PM
Wouldn't that have been more preferable with Kabrinskia? As you had fairly similar army size, which would empathise the importance of strategy, unit organisation and personal discipline as key and integral to winning each battle. Unless Aurvandil is better due to the "higher danger factor" since Aurvandil's armies don't mess around.

Except Terran had no reason to fight Kabrinskia after the peace terms they got. Terran has lots of reasons to fight Aurvandil– first and foremost, the occupation of Paisly, Paisland, Maeotis, Evanburg, Kydonia, Gallaecia, and Celtiberia.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 08, 2012, 07:51:42 PM
Except Terran had no reason to fight Kabrinskia after the peace terms they got. Terran has lots of reasons to fight Aurvandil– first and foremost, the occupation of Paisly, Paisland, Maeotis, Evanburg, Kydonia, Gallaecia, and Celtiberia.

Oh well Aurvandil won't be keeping Paisly for much longer, which we only took as a reaction to Terranese territorial advance into the fortified position of Paisland. We can't let Terran hold a Motte and Bailey on the bottleneck border, especially if Terran does start bringing down the northerners, it would give you scope to campaign into Aurvandil with relative safety against Aurvandilan counter attack.

Also, Terran scarcely had a reason to fight Aurvandil considering the peace terms we were working out with Barca, which put everything to Barca's favour and largely left the terms to their choosing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 08, 2012, 09:18:44 PM
Oh well Aurvandil won't be keeping Paisly for much longer, which we only took as a reaction to Terranese territorial advance into the fortified position of Paisland. We can't let Terran hold a Motte and Bailey on the bottleneck border, especially if Terran does start bringing down the northerners, it would give you scope to campaign into Aurvandil with relative safety against Aurvandilan counter attack.

lulz, you're too nice...

Honestly, I don't want Terran to stop fighting until we're able to whip some discipline into our army. Terran needs to fight a real war, even if we lose, just so we can reprogram our army from "routine monster clearing missions" to "real fighting force." We'll see if we can accomplish that....

Problem is I'm not sure we'll be around after the "even if we lose part."

And honestly, we haven't been doing that terrible other than some minor mistakes and inactivity. It's just hard to look good when fighting a realm twice your size.

Also, Terran scarcely had a reason to fight Aurvandil considering the peace terms we were working out with Barca, which put everything to Barca's favour and largely left the terms to their choosing.

If I remember correctly those peace terms did not include giving back the stolen regions, which is the main reason Terran started the war. Also, the war needed to happen one way or another. The 'Moot had one chance to challenge Aurvandil's strength and it coming sooner rather later, and with Lurian aid, was in the 'Moot's best interest. Unfortunately, things didn't go our way.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 08, 2012, 09:47:58 PM
Maybe the 'moot shouldn't have sent spies to cause dissent in Luria.

Just sayin.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 08, 2012, 10:05:57 PM
Maybe the 'moot shouldn't have sent spies to cause dissent in Luria.

Just sayin.

.... maybe you missed the part where that spy ring was actually trying to destabilize the Moot, and using the Lurias as a tool to do that?

From our perspective, it looks a wee bit more like the Lurias were using spies to destabilize us. We had mass banishments and near rebellion– you had a few spies.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 08, 2012, 10:40:36 PM
/me shrugs.

I'm giving you how it looked from the Lurian side of the map.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 08, 2012, 11:42:38 PM
Actually, we came way closer to rebellion over it than we should have, too, at least if we were any normal powerbloc.

It ain't easy trying to lead Lurians.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 08, 2012, 11:59:27 PM
Heh, do you mean Luria also fell for the "send a letter to someoneB allegedly from someoneA to someoneC taking about a takedown in somewhereD", like the Zuma against the Moot? After the first time you think we'd learn and be smarter a bit :p
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 09, 2012, 02:07:53 AM
Heh, do you mean Luria also fell for the "send a letter to someoneB allegedly from someoneA to someoneC taking about a takedown in somewhereD", like the Zuma against the Moot? After the first time you think we'd learn and be smarter a bit :p

We are constantly reminded by the stupidity of foreigners thanks to events like this.

Egamma: removed Glaumring comment at his request.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 09, 2012, 04:14:46 AM
Sorry. Not buying it. Your actions during the war showed nothing but self-interest and disregard for your allies. Even your allies say that.

Indeed. At first, Machiavel and Glaumring agreed much on Terran going too far and not avoiding a conflict that could have avoided.

Then, you went on your own to make the conflict even worse...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 09, 2012, 06:36:02 AM
Best intentions, maybe, but very poorly executed. At the time that Asylon decided to attack Kabrinskia, the north was near-defenseless (hence, Astrum was able to take Wallershire with ease, and immediately pose a threat to the Itau duchy). This was despite the fact that even before the war, alarms were raised by some regarding the weakness of the northern border.

Kabrinskia also managed to plunder the regions between Itau and Via, virtually splitting Asylon in two. When concerns were raised over this, Glaumring remarked that Kybcyell and Uppervia were "useless anyway", despite the fact that the two regions were the ones feeding Via and Itau. I expect that contributed to the extreme starvation in Asylon (and that certainly helped alleviate starvation in Kabrinskia, in addition to allied supply :D).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 09, 2012, 01:12:12 PM
Uh... yes. You keep bringing up how "Terran betrayed your friendship" and how "the Moot is poor communicators" and you're the one who brought all of this back in a thread unrelated to it just to say "na na, look how dumb you were you should stuck with me and we would have beaten the world!!"

You do care. Because you literally can't get off of the topic of this alternate reality you have constructed in which Terran, and everyone else, betrayed you. But mostly Terran. Somehow. Even though we didn't change our stance throughout the whole war. And you did. Multiple times. In tiny time spans. Multiple times. But we were wrong. Yeah.

Indeed. If you don't care, then don't keep bringing it up... Otherwise, don't blame the 'moot for ditching you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 09, 2012, 05:24:07 PM

Egamma: removed Glaumring comment at his request.

So... how 'bout Paisly?

I guess both sides now are racing for their refits?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 09, 2012, 09:56:14 PM
and Glaumring throws a left hook at Anaris. oh what is this? Indirik supplexed glaumring. Proceed with the group teabagging. JKJK

Really though, Glaumring I don't think you are giving everyone else enough credit in interpreting the situation. They probably knew quite a bit about what was going on especially the older ones with their ties that bind and such.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 09, 2012, 10:54:43 PM
Actually, this was a thread about the Maroccidental war.

So... how 'bout Paisly?

I guess both sides now are racing for their refits?

I imagine Terran are, but Aurvandil can afford to delay since we now have the Motte and Bailey in Paisland, and Terran can at best bring south 12,000 C.S. and usually they bring very little infantry and usually the same amount in Cavalry.

Though, it'll be interesting to see how things plays out once Paisly secedes and either side can either go to war with the new realm to fight the other, or go through Barca which seems to be struggling just to exist at the moment, which should be soon since Aurvandil likes to give its cities the boot as soon as possible and tell them to make it on their own and to stop free loading on the Commonwealth.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 09, 2012, 11:34:58 PM
I imagine Terran are, but Aurvandil can afford to delay since we now have the Motte and Bailey in Paisland, and Terran can at best bring south 12,000 C.S. and usually they bring very little infantry and usually the same amount in Cavalry.

Though, it'll be interesting to see how things plays out once Paisly secedes and either side can either go to war with the new realm to fight the other, or go through Barca which seems to be struggling just to exist at the moment, which should be soon since Aurvandil likes to give its cities the boot as soon as possible and tell them to make it on their own and to stop free loading on the Commonwealth.

Indeed, if/when you spin off Paisly, that'll be a very interesting dynamic.

That said, I do think Aurvandil is overtrusting in infantry. In battles where the wind doesn't screw up the archers, we have inflicted substantively heavier casualties on you than you have on us. Admittedly, that weather factor does add a major risk element– but I can't help thinking that your lack of cav and much ranged power is gonna come back to bite you if we ever get in a situation with CS-parity.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 10, 2012, 12:07:40 AM
Indeed, if/when you spin off Paisly, that'll be a very interesting dynamic.

That said, I do think Aurvandil is overtrusting in infantry. In battles where the wind doesn't screw up the archers, we have inflicted substantively heavier casualties on you than you have on us. Admittedly, that weather factor does add a major risk element– but I can't help thinking that your lack of cav and much ranged power is gonna come back to bite you if we ever get in a situation with CS-parity.

I can confirm this. I had to lead Enweil's archer heavy army against Riombara and we still managed to repel Riombara, even when we had 3k less than them. But mostly the weather in BM isn't so great. I'd rather invest in getting cavalry units and constantly repeat charge/retreat tactic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 12:13:30 AM
I can confirm this. I had to lead Enweil's archer heavy army against Riombara and we still managed to repel Riombara, even when we had 3k less than them. But mostly the weather in BM isn't so great. I'd rather invest in getting cavalry units and constantly repeat charge/retreat tactic.

It's not just the army composition, though, it's also the line settings both sides use.

When I was Enweil's general, I optimized the line settings according to what we had, what the enemy had, and what we knew the enemy liked to use, which helped us do better with less (overall, mostly just helped compensate for sub-par movement rates though).

On the other hand, you could have a lot of archers, good weather, more CS than the enemy, and still get stomped, if you use poor settings and the enemy uses good ones. I like archers, but overall, infantry-heavy armies tend to be a lot more reliable imo.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 10, 2012, 12:17:52 AM
Infantry are more reliable especially when you have as much high quality infantry as Aurvandil is. An archer army may get lucky and beat them in one battle but it's a flip of the coin whether they are any good or not. I think, unless someone get's  just an unbelievable cav center or two that very few other compositions could beat the infantry mass. Look what the Romans did with elite infantry and all their other units being pretty mediocre.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 12:22:03 AM
Infantry are more reliable especially when you have as much high quality infantry as Aurvandil is. An archer army may get lucky and beat them in one battle but it's a flip of the coin whether they are any good or not. I think, unless someone get's  just an unbelievable cav center or two that very few other compositions could beat the infantry mass. Look what the Romans did with elite infantry and all their other units being pretty mediocre.

I'd also tend to say that the bits of cavalry and archers are much more effective in an infantry-heavy army than in any other composition.

Archers can get a few good shots, but they get totally pwnt once in melee.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JPierreD on October 10, 2012, 12:34:30 AM
Actually, this was a thread about the Maroccidental war.

So... how 'bout Paisly?

I guess both sides now are racing for their refits?

Sorry, but this is about the Marrocidenian war. Please stay on topic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 12:36:13 AM
Well seeing Aurvandil expand into my old regions sure reactivated Machiavel.

Boy did lots happen during my honeymoon.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 10, 2012, 12:45:06 AM
I'd also tend to say that the bits of cavalry and archers are much more effective in an infantry-heavy army than in any other composition.

Archers can get a few good shots, but they get totally pwnt once in melee.

That is why you don't put them all in the same line when you only have archers like I did. You will get slaughtered all together.

Mass infantry in BM is reliable and good because they are the most cost efficient unit type in game.

Long ranged SF units can easily destroy them as long as the front line holds though. Range 5 units are awesome.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 10, 2012, 12:45:55 AM
So how much CS is Aurvandil bringing every time anyway?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 10, 2012, 01:16:49 AM
Indeed, if/when you spin off Paisly, that'll be a very interesting dynamic.

That said, I do think Aurvandil is overtrusting in infantry. In battles where the wind doesn't screw up the archers, we have inflicted substantively heavier casualties on you than you have on us. Admittedly, that weather factor does add a major risk element– but I can't help thinking that your lack of cav and much ranged power is gonna come back to bite you if we ever get in a situation with CS-parity.

It's the military culture in Aurvandil, we refuse to use Cavalry for some reason, and nobody wants to lead archers because their is little chivalry and honour in it. That said, we field a lot of our best ranged special forces and if Celtiberia didn't keep revolting we would consecutively fund an entire army to comprise of them, which would easily outdo our lack of archers because they're so powerful and well trained.

Our lack of cavalry and archers is already biting us, but we're very cavalier about it.

Egamma: removed Glaumring comment at his request.

I use Sanguis Astroism in the north as an example of what I should do in reverse in the south. Conquer territory, set up as many free realms as possible and balkanise things. The north is already deadlocked in perpetual peace and alliance where everyone answers to the church and as a result have absolutely nothing to do but sit and count gold as if it's some kind of achievement, God knows how they managed to keep any nobles when they barely do anything in years, and the only time they do anything is mass wars where they simply overwhelm their opponents by sheer numbers. Which is just boring for everyone, so we must make the south fun and interesting because that is the last free chunk of Dwilight where we can have fun.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 10, 2012, 01:18:32 AM
So how much CS is Aurvandil bringing every time anyway?

We usually field about 33-36KCS mobile but we leave a large chunk of that behind to manage regions, in Paisland we only sent in about 20KCS because we left forces to run a take over in Celtiberia and manage control in Maeotis which we had just taken. But for the big battle in Maeotis we had about 35,000 CS though I don't know the figure adjusted for all the equipment damage and such we took on the march.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 10, 2012, 01:36:31 AM
Indeed, if/when you spin off Paisly, that'll be a very interesting dynamic.

That said, I do think Aurvandil is overtrusting in infantry. In battles where the wind doesn't screw up the archers, we have inflicted substantively heavier casualties on you than you have on us. Admittedly, that weather factor does add a major risk element– but I can't help thinking that your lack of cav and much ranged power is gonna come back to bite you if we ever get in a situation with CS-parity.

If Terran had 50 nobles like Aurvandil does, it would be a completely different war. Aurvandil would be losing. Badly.

Egamma: removed Glaumring comment at his request.

and the only time they do anything is mass wars where they simply overwhelm their opponents by sheer numbers. Which is just boring for everyone,

Hm... interesting you would say that while simultaneously conquering the Maroccidens via your extreme numerical advantage.


Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on October 10, 2012, 02:15:14 AM
Never Compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 10, 2012, 02:31:34 AM
If Terran had 50 nobles like Aurvandil does, it would be a completely different war. Aurvandil would be losing. Badly.

Yeah that's cute but no.

Hm. So you hate big realms, huh? Hate Astrum cause they are soooo big, huh? Love Aurvandil, right? You realize Aurvandil has almost twice the nobles of Astrum? Yeah. What?

Are you trying to square up to me? It's almost like you're trying to pick a fight in the same way a chav would, obnoxiously shouting "Yeah, what?!" into some one's face. Yeah we get it, you hate Aurvandil because of an OOC grudge big whoop.

Hm... interesting you would say that while simultaneously conquering the Maroccidens via your extreme numerical advantage.

Quite, but the difference is, I set up free realms, and I conquer defensively as a reaction to the aggression of other realms.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 10, 2012, 03:05:43 AM
What do you care if they bore themselves?

Had you not went rambling like a madman, blundering into Kabrinskia, they'd never have even bothered themselves with you.

If the North sets themselves up in a way that bores them, it's their own problem. Otherwise, they must be doing something right if so many people remain there.

Mostly the church is keeping them busy. Senseless talks... Tournaments kept me occupied for a year then that got old when I realized it is almost impossible to reach 100% swordfighting as a noble :(

Gotta say, Southern realms do seem more energetic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 03:07:27 AM
Mostly the church is keeping them busy. Senseless talks... Tournaments kept me occupied for a year then that got old when I realized it is almost impossible to reach 100% swordfighting as a noble :(

Gotta say, Southern realms do seem more energetic.

Depends what you want and when you join.

And what position you have when you get there, of course.

Of course, if "when" is right now, there are many wars going on.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 10, 2012, 03:07:37 AM
Yeah that's cute but no.

Why not? It would be absolutely different. And if we had 50 nobles, we would own your infantry only army. Even with half the nobles you have we do some pretty substantial damage relative to what would be done if you all used normal army compositions. Now, maybe you would wise up and start using archers if we had 50 nobles. But if we kept the same army compositions, and had similar activity rates (big IF there), we would win most every battle.


Are you trying to square up to me? It's almost like you're trying to pick a fight in the same way a chav would, obnoxiously shouting "Yeah, what?!" into some one's face. Yeah we get it, you hate Aurvandil because of an OOC grudge big whoop.

Am I trying to square up to you? I don't really know what you mean. But that comment was direct at Glaumring and how dumb his reasoning was. I get he doesn't like Astrum for one reason or another, but likes Aurvandil. It simply doesn't make  sense that that reason would be "Astrum is big" because Aurvandil is a lot bigger.


Quite, but the difference is, I set up free realms, and I conquer defensively as a reaction to the aggression of other realms.

The Astrocracies don't set up free realms? Just because they are mostly allied with each other doesn't mean they aren't "free." They all do basically whatever they want individually.

You.. conquer... defensively?  :o
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 03:26:27 AM
The theocracies are not free. They fear.

So does Aurvandil, that's why they want to set up moar colonies.

And so does Luria. They've heard too many legends of the Krakken, D'Hara's flagship.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 10, 2012, 03:33:13 AM
Meh... the theocracies aren't afraid. So far, there's nothing to be afraid of. What they are, is bored. Which you would think would make it easier to get them going to fight a war. But thts proving very difficult.

We are, unfortunately, a victim of our great success. And yet, not successful enough in keeping people focused and pointed in the same direction.  We wiped out everyone around us and replaced the enemies with friends. We spawned loads of realms, but stayed friends with just about all of them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 03:35:29 AM
Meh... the theocracies aren't afraid. So far, there's nothing to be afraid of. What they are, is bored. Which you would think would make it easier to get them going to fight a war. But thts proving very difficult.

We are, unfortunately, a victim of our great success. And yet, not successful enough in keeping people focused and pointed in the same direction.  We wiped out everyone around us and replaced the enemies with friends. We spawned loads of realms, but stayed friends with just about all of them.

Except poor Libero? :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 10, 2012, 03:42:59 AM
Why not? It would be absolutely different. And if we had 50 nobles, we would own your infantry only army. Even with half the nobles you have we do some pretty substantial damage relative to what would be done if you all used normal army compositions. Now, maybe you would wise up and start using archers if we had 50 nobles. But if we kept the same army compositions, and had similar activity rates (big IF there), we would win most every battle.

We don't field an Infantry only army, we have a large and powerful ranged Special Forces contingent, and very limited archers. But, I don't think you would win on a strategic level, Madina even with nearly three times as many nobles as Aurvandil had, when Aurvandil was starving and down to three regions couldn't beat us. Even after they got support from the Caerwyn nobles and the Grand Duchy of Fissoa they still couldn't beat us. Aurvandil grew up fighting realms with more nobles, more gold, better recruitment centres and stronger economies well supported by allies, whilst having none of those ourselves. Thus, the core Orvandeaux leadership are the kings of getting by on nothing and going far with very little, we can put ourselves in a situation where we are out gunned and be confident of victory. Which is why I find it hard to believe that Terran would be able to match us even if you had the same number of nobles, Aurvandil's strength has never been in its numbers, never. But our strength allowed us to bring forth large forces over time. Plus, no realm I have seen has the same stomach Aurvandil does for extremely bloody wars, back in the day every two-three weeks or so we'd lead 2500 men on a suicide mission on Tower Fatmilak just to force Madina to keep spending gold on fortifications and to stop them from taking the fight to us. If it comes to it we can just grind our faces against your sword long enough for it to snap, or the moment it shows any weakness we'll exploit in it an instant, Aurvandil is powerful because we pick our battles, we only fight when we know for sure it will complete an objective, and we are powerful because we always go for the kill immediately. No foreplay, as Barca and D'Hara learnt the hard way in Rettleville and Paisly.

People make the mistake of assuming we simply overwhelm our opponents, when it's a case of we choose battles we know we can win, or that in defeat we will come out better strategically. Which is what I was advising Glaumring to do in Asylon, since he seemed stuck in the mindset of fighting battles when  you aren't sure you can win, just because the enemy army is there, same with Terran actually, against us and Kabrinskia. Which is what Summerdale did in the north as well.

Am I trying to square up to you? I don't really know what you mean. But that comment was direct at Glaumring and how dumb his reasoning was. I get he doesn't like Astrum for one reason or another, but likes Aurvandil. It simply doesn't make  sense that that reason would be "Astrum is big" because Aurvandil is a lot bigger.

Squaring up is when you stand ridiculously close to some one, square your shoulders and pick a fight, usually by shouting something obnoxious like "Yeah what" in their face. Which just seemed like what you were doing.

Glaumring likes Aurvandil because we conquer, but we then hand that land out on a whim for people to do with as they please, create what they like without interference. We don't just hold onto it, or give it to people we know will be our allies and support us. Hell, Aurvandil will likely end up fighting Falkirk, or the new Paisly realm if we ever end up in peace time.

The Astrocracies don't set up free realms? Just because they are mostly allied with each other doesn't mean they aren't "free." They all do basically whatever they want individually.

Well, I mean "not free" as in they are set up and are instantly just apart of the Astocratic federation, it makes little difference if they're a new realm or in their old one, they're still friends with the same people, subservient to the same goals, and thus, not free to pursue a completely independent path, whether they want to or not. That, and I am always under the assumption that the new realms in the north are only ever set up on the condition that they do ally, and that they are subservient to the dominant religion, and do maintain the peace. Whereas in Aurvandil, you could openly declare to Mendicant that you would fight a war with him and he'd just say "Come back when you're big enough for me to feel it" and still hand you a mandate for a new realm. With Madina City Mendicant literally just said "Who wants a new realm" then picked whoever was more convenient at the time and let them create whatever they wanted without Mendicant giving any input or conditions whatsoever. With Paisly he pretty much handed it to Florence because she was the former ruler of Madina, a woman, and too licentious to attend his banquets with any decorum,  and he said "Do whatever you want so long as you do it fast and I don't have to pay for it". Anyone in Aurvandil can make a new realm of their choosing since Mendicant basically picks them on a whim, if Aurvandil ends up conquering a city it's almost guaranteed Mendicant is going to mandate a noble to make a new realm and to do it before it becomes inconvenient to him.

You.. conquer... defensively?  :o

Take Paisland for example, we only ever conquered into it after Terran took it, before that the unwritten agreement with D'Hara was "We'll drop our intent for Paisly so long as you take it and keep the peace". The same with Madina, Mendicant was desperate to get Madina to sign peace so he didn't have to go through the inconvenience of peace by conquest, Mendicant doesn't want conquest, he's too lazy for that, he just wants his opponents to submit as though it were a duel to surrender, a mutual admittance of who was the better swordsman now lets leave it at that.

We conquer as a reaction, to defend the Commonwealth. It's the same reason why we never conquered Rettleville when it was undefended after the battles in Maeotis and Paisly, Barca no longer presented a threat so there was no need for it as a means to defend the borders of the Commonwealth.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 10, 2012, 03:44:58 AM
So does Aurvandil, that's why they want to set up moar colonies.

And so does Luria. They've heard too many legends of the Krakken, D'Hara's flagship.

That implies we fear a fight, we just begrudge the necessity of it when it's wars we don't choose to fight.

Setting up new realms means we won't have to fight, or have a war forced on us so long as they stand in the way as a neutral zone. It allows us to maintain our isolation.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 04:10:41 AM
That implies we fear a fight, we just begrudge the necessity of it when it's wars we don't choose to fight.

Setting up new realms means we won't have to fight, or have a war forced on us so long as they stand in the way as a neutral zone. It allows us to maintain our isolation.

You erroneously believe that a new realm in Paisly could somehow do something to prevent northern realms from sailing to your lands.

There's nothing that anyone in Paisly can do to prevent northern troops from sailing south, and sailing would be the most logical path for any non-moot realm to attack you. There's no such thing as a neutral zone. A buffer state between yourselves and Terran, sure, but no more.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 10, 2012, 04:21:23 AM
You erroneously believe that a new realm in Paisly could somehow do something to prevent northern realms from sailing to your lands.

There's nothing that anyone in Paisly can do to prevent northern troops from sailing south, and sailing would be the most logical path for any non-moot realm to attack you. There's no such thing as a neutral zone. A buffer state between yourselves and Terran, sure, but no more.

Well, this was all decided before sea travel was implemented, which now gives realms a ridiculous fast means of attacking anywhere without being located before hand. The Paisly realm would still be a land barrier to Terran and D'Hara, and to a lesser extent a threat to Barca not that it's needed.

Plus, I.C. Mendicant still has complete faith in his Marine Impériale that we roleplayed, though no such counter balance exists in actual gameplay terms.

But as for a neutral zone, well the Paisly realm will be pretty neutral, or at least Aurvandil won't allow them to overly favour us. The Paisly realm will set up a new dynamic of politics in the south, which is the intent. Aurvandil won't be able to march north without violating the borders of the realm and thus declaring war, and the same for Terran.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 04:37:02 AM
Can all dukes secede?

If so, you could always make a new realm in Evanburg, if that's all you want. And Tower Fatmilak.

I think the outcome of a colony in Paisly are pretty predictable. Terran will just be more angry, and will attack it as much as they can, and D'Hara will be pissed off into a death-duel with it until one of the two dies.

Much to the pleasure of the Lurians, who would rather the Krakken remain West instead of East.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 10, 2012, 04:47:20 AM
Don't y'all see what Medicant is trying to allude to? He is going to fight the Zuma, conquer them, and give their lands to me. Duh! Anyways, boss I want to get out of paisly ASAP place smells like fish. can we get back to defensively conquering? :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 04:49:02 AM
Don't y'all see what Medicant is trying to allude to? He is going to fight the Zuma, conquer them, and give their lands to me. Duh! Anyways, boss I want to get out of paisly ASAP place smells like fish. can we get back to defensively conquering? :P

Terran and D'Hara don't really like the Zuma... if he can show that he can beat up the Zuma, we might just help him. ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 10, 2012, 04:57:33 AM
Doubt Aurvandil will let the stronghold with their best infantry RC succeed lol

As for Zuma... can anyone really get rid of them?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 05:04:40 AM
Doubt Aurvandil will let the stronghold with their best infantry RC succeed lol

As for Zuma... can anyone really get rid of them?

I invite Aurvandil to join forces with SA to try as much.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 10, 2012, 05:10:47 AM
We don't field an Infantry only army, we have a large and powerful ranged Special Forces contingent, and very limited archers. But, I don't think you would win on a strategic level, Madina even with nearly three times as many nobles as Aurvandil had, when Aurvandil was starving and down to three regions couldn't beat us. Even after they got support from the Caerwyn nobles and the Grand Duchy of Fissoa they still couldn't beat us. Aurvandil grew up fighting realms with more nobles, more gold, better recruitment centres and stronger economies well supported by allies, whilst having none of those ourselves. Thus, the core Orvandeaux leadership are the kings of getting by on nothing and going far with very little, we can put ourselves in a situation where we are out gunned and be confident of victory. Which is why I find it hard to believe that Terran would be able to match us even if you had the same number of nobles, Aurvandil's strength has never been in its numbers, never. But our strength allowed us to bring forth large forces over time. Plus, no realm I have seen has the same stomach Aurvandil does for extremely bloody wars, back in the day every two-three weeks or so we'd lead 2500 men on a suicide mission on Tower Fatmilak just to force Madina to keep spending gold on fortifications and to stop them from taking the fight to us. If it comes to it we can just grind our faces against your sword long enough for it to snap, or the moment it shows any weakness we'll exploit in it an instant, Aurvandil is powerful because we pick our battles, we only fight when we know for sure it will complete an objective, and we are powerful because we always go for the kill immediately. No foreplay, as Barca and D'Hara learnt the hard way in Rettleville and Paisly.

People make the mistake of assuming we simply overwhelm our opponents, when it's a case of we choose battles we know we can win, or that in defeat we will come out better strategically. Which is what I was advising Glaumring to do in Asylon, since he seemed stuck in the mindset of fighting battles when  you aren't sure you can win, just because the enemy army is there, same with Terran actually, against us and Kabrinskia. Which is what Summerdale did in the north as well.

Squaring up is when you stand ridiculously close to some one, square your shoulders and pick a fight, usually by shouting something obnoxious like "Yeah what" in their face. Which just seemed like what you were doing.

Glaumring likes Aurvandil because we conquer, but we then hand that land out on a whim for people to do with as they please, create what they like without interference. We don't just hold onto it, or give it to people we know will be our allies and support us. Hell, Aurvandil will likely end up fighting Falkirk, or the new Paisly realm if we ever end up in peace time.

Well, I mean "not free" as in they are set up and are instantly just apart of the Astocratic federation, it makes little difference if they're a new realm or in their old one, they're still friends with the same people, subservient to the same goals, and thus, not free to pursue a completely independent path, whether they want to or not. That, and I am always under the assumption that the new realms in the north are only ever set up on the condition that they do ally, and that they are subservient to the dominant religion, and do maintain the peace. Whereas in Aurvandil, you could openly declare to Mendicant that you would fight a war with him and he'd just say "Come back when you're big enough for me to feel it" and still hand you a mandate for a new realm. With Madina City Mendicant literally just said "Who wants a new realm" then picked whoever was more convenient at the time and let them create whatever they wanted without Mendicant giving any input or conditions whatsoever. With Paisly he pretty much handed it to Florence because she was the former ruler of Madina, a woman, and too licentious to attend his banquets with any decorum,  and he said "Do whatever you want so long as you do it fast and I don't have to pay for it". Anyone in Aurvandil can make a new realm of their choosing since Mendicant basically picks them on a whim, if Aurvandil ends up conquering a city it's almost guaranteed Mendicant is going to mandate a noble to make a new realm and to do it before it becomes inconvenient to him.

Sure, I'll give it you that you all are resourceful. No one argues against that I don't think. You are so resourceful and active to the point of a lot of controversy and suspicion around it.

However, I would posit that the war between Aurvandil and Madina was fundementally different in that it was all focused on one small bottle necked choke point. This changes a lot.

Nevertheless, I won't argue the hypothetical war between Terran and Aurvandil any longer. Was a little silly to bring up in the first place, I guess.

--


So, this new realm in Paisly... you have no intention of defending it, then? So you're conquering it so Terran can't have it, then are going to split it off, and then sit by while Terran reconquers it? Seems... silly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 05:17:58 AM
I think he just wants D'Hara to fight to take it back.

Or maybe he's just deceiving the Lurias, secretly sailing a fleet to Giask's outskirts as they think D'Hara is being occupied out West.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 10, 2012, 05:20:35 AM
Can we please immortalize the doctrine of "defensive conquest"? Seems a bit, erm... paradoxical...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 10, 2012, 05:30:19 AM
Can we please immortalize the doctrine of "defensive conquest"? Seems a bit, erm... paradoxical...

Ya know, it's like Iraq. America Defensively Conquered it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 10, 2012, 05:33:17 AM
Ya know, it's like Iraq. America Defensively Conquered it.

This is... priceless.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on October 10, 2012, 05:59:58 AM
Can we please immortalize the doctrine of "defensive conquest"? Seems a bit, erm... paradoxical...

Not really. It's what the Roman's did. Basically what occurs is you have someone on your borders that poses a threat. Whether that be monster spawning rogues or a hostile realm, it doesn't matter. So long as it exists as a threat. The threat is responded to with force, conquering the area where it was and eliminating that threat. After that, you have a new border, and outside that border the law breaks down. Bandits and such use the area outside your nation as an area in which to attack traders with impunity. So you conquer the area the bandits are in. So on and so forth.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 10, 2012, 03:05:58 PM
Terran and D'Hara don't really like the Zuma... if he can show that he can beat up the Zuma, we might just help him. ;)

Mendicant likes the Zuma in his own weird way, don't get him wrong he considers them little more than wildlife, but they have the same sort of attitude when it comes to war. I'm half sure Aurvandil may be able to beat the Zuma, but then that presumes the Zuma can be beaten, and not just spawn new hordes nigh indefinitely. It's on my list of things to try if Aurvandil ever gets substantial peace time to build up our infrastructure, store some reserve gold and prepare for war, which we've never had. After all, Haktoo is just about the only ruler capable of standing up to Mendicant on their own and potentially slapping him down brutally, and that just adds the sort of thrill to a war Mendicant would consider worthy of him. Glory lies over the horizon, challenge it because you know you cannot reach it.

Sure, I'll give it you that you all are resourceful. No one argues against that I don't think. You are so resourceful and active to the point of a lot of controversy and suspicion around it.

However, I would posit that the war between Aurvandil and Madina was fundementally different in that it was all focused on one small bottle necked choke point. This changes a lot.

Nevertheless, I won't argue the hypothetical war between Terran and Aurvandil any longer. Was a little silly to bring up in the first place, I guess.

--


So, this new realm in Paisly... you have no intention of defending it, then? So you're conquering it so Terran can't have it, then are going to split it off, and then sit by while Terran reconquers it? Seems... silly.

Anyone who thinks we're active to the point of suspicion sees what they want to see, and ignores the reality in front of them. Aurvandil is regularly dogged by inactive and over extended movements.

As for the new Paisly realm, well, whether we will defend it depends on the circumstance. If Terran invades as a means of conquest to then continue their war on Aurvandil, we'll intervene, it's would just be ungallant of us to leave Lady Florence to be conquered by hordes of Terranese. Or if say, down the line Florence challenges Terran to a war and loses, well they brought that on themselves it's not Aurvandil's problem.

Can we please immortalize the doctrine of "defensive conquest"? Seems a bit, erm... paradoxical...

It really isn't.

There is a clear distinction between defensively conquering a land, for obviously defensive reasons, and aggressively conquering a land for aggressive agendas.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 10, 2012, 03:55:42 PM
There is a clear distinction between defensively conquering a land, for obviously defensive reasons, and aggressively conquering a land for aggressive agendas.

Because in one you invade and conquer their land and annex it as your own or to form a colony, and in the other, you invade and conquer their land and annex it as your own or to form a colony.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 10, 2012, 04:13:36 PM
Because in one you invade and conquer their land and annex it as your own or to form a colony, and in the other, you invade and conquer their land and annex it as your own or to form a colony.

Yeah, anyone can over simplify anything to try and fail to make a point

Why not say there is no difference between being aggressive and defensive because both involve some form of confrontation?  "There's no difference in being attacked, and being the one attacked, because in one situation there's some kind of confrontation involved and in the other, you are involved in some kind of confrontation."
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 10, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Yeah, anyone can over simplify anything to try and fail to make a point

Why not say there is no difference between being aggressive and defensive because both involve some form of confrontation?  "There's no difference in being attacked, and being the one attacked, because in one situation there's some kind of confrontation involved and in the other, you are involved in some kind of confrontation."

Ask the ones being conquered whether they think there's a difference.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 10, 2012, 06:18:34 PM
Ask the ones being conquered whether they think there's a difference.

That'd imply their opinion is relevant.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on October 10, 2012, 06:34:35 PM
That'd imply their opinion is relevant.

Ah, I get it now!

When your neighbor is agressive towards you, you fight a defensive war.

When you neighbor is not agressive towards you, you fight a defensive war.

The difference is only in their opinion, therefore not relevant.

Genius!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 10, 2012, 06:36:26 PM
Ah, I get it now!

When your neighbor is agressive towards you, you fight a defensive war.

When you neighbor is not agressive towards you, you fight a defensive war.

The difference is only in their opinion, therefore not relevant.

Genius!

Not even sure how you managed to work that out.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 10, 2012, 06:55:45 PM
Not even sure how you managed to work that out.
Does it matter? His opinion isn't really relevant. :P

Anyway, I really like the theory. If you can win the war, and any other war that could conceivably emerge as a result, then who really cares what anyone else's opinion is? I have to admit, if I had that kind of power, I wouldn't really give a crap what anyone else thought of what I did, either.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 10, 2012, 06:58:28 PM
Mendicant likes the Zuma in his own weird way, don't get him wrong he considers them little more than wildlife, but they have the same sort of attitude when it comes to war. I'm half sure Aurvandil may be able to beat the Zuma, but then that presumes the Zuma can be beaten, and not just spawn new hordes nigh indefinitely. It's on my list of things to try if Aurvandil ever gets substantial peace time to build up our infrastructure, store some reserve gold and prepare for war, which we've never had. After all, Haktoo is just about the only ruler capable of standing up to Mendicant on their own and potentially slapping him down brutally, and that just adds the sort of thrill to a war Mendicant would consider worthy of him. Glory lies over the horizon, challenge it because you know you cannot reach it.

Out of curiosity, have you ever fought against a daimon army before? From the scout reports I've seen of the Zuma, I'd say two daimon lords could rip through your entire realm like a chainsaw through warm butter.

As my character would say IC: "Please let Aurvandil try to take on the Zuma!"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JPierreD on October 10, 2012, 07:45:41 PM
Anyone who thinks we're active to the point of suspicion sees what they want to see, and ignores the reality in front of them. Aurvandil is regularly dogged by inactive and over extended movements.

Well, no offense but you did repeatedly deny Aurvandil being the new home of the Saxons. And now we have Averoth 2.0 in Madina. That sort of surprised me.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 11, 2012, 12:29:27 AM
Besides, we all know only mediterranean realms matter. Who cares about those who don't even have a coast on it? :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 11, 2012, 07:57:04 PM
Well, no offense but you did repeatedly deny Aurvandil being the new home of the Saxons. And now we have Averoth 2.0 in Madina. That sort of surprised me.

The Averothoi aren't saxons, and the fact the Madina realm became a Freestate is a case of serendipity, the original plan was to give it to a Caerwynite to make of it what he would, but Lex was simply more convenient over the Madina issue and Mendicant just wanted Madina to stop being a burden, particularly with burgeoning war in the north and east.

Then why does he (and you, for that matter) constantly propagandize and attempt to justify his/your IC actions on the forums?

Because !@#$ sticks?

When I don't counter some of the nonsense it becomes the accepted opinion on an OOC level which then translate IC, such as the whole clan and saxon rubbish everyone decided was going on because Nosferatu and his crowd just kept shouting abuse whenever they lost a battle, or the religious waffle being said on the forum which suddenly made it a key issue IC with people repeating what they heard OOC and not IC (There being a clear difference in the information made available IC and OOC and the way it was presented by Mendicant, which made it easy to tell which came from the forum and which didn't). But the main reason is to discuss it, which is somewhat interesting because there isn't the same forum to do it I.C.

I'm quite happy letting people hate me (Certainly gives other players something to do as well as myself) but they can at least be accurate and well informed in that hate, there's nothing more annoying than some one hating you and using their misapprehension as a reason why.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 11, 2012, 08:03:29 PM
Out of curiosity, have you ever fought against a daimon army before? From the scout reports I've seen of the Zuma, I'd say two daimon lords could rip through your entire realm like a chainsaw through warm butter.

As my character would say IC: "Please let Aurvandil try to take on the Zuma!"

We've seen the Daimon forces, the hordes they sent to protect Barca were less than a third of the combat strength Aurvandil could attack them with, and that was several Daimon lords.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 12:07:08 AM
When is the Glaumring/Menidcant wedding?

Mendicant's harem of royalty only consists of female rulers, past or present.

And Glaum needs a little operation...

Wouldn't be the first time Mendicant has commanded a man to become a woman whether they like it or not.

"Lady" Sarit is testament to that, our tame inter-sex judge.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 12, 2012, 12:33:03 AM
"Lady" Sarit is testament to that, our tame inter-sex judge.

QUE? i don't believe I've heard this story. Jeez I miss out on so much :/ Anyways I think it would be best to form a marriage alliance with one  of haktoos daughters Zuma Aurvandil alliance? talk about playing to win.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 12, 2012, 12:34:47 AM
QUE? i don't believe I've heard this story. Jeez I miss out on so much :/ Anyways I think it would be best to form a marriage alliance with one  of haktoos daughters Zuma Aurvandil alliance? talk about playing to win.

Why not Haktoo herself?

And why ask her consent? Surely a grand king like Mendicant can wed whoever he chooses. Surely it would be a honor to all ladies (and daimonic females) to be wed to such a prestigious and benevolent ruler?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 01:13:11 AM
QUE? i don't believe I've heard this story. Jeez I miss out on so much :/ Anyways I think it would be best to form a marriage alliance with one  of haktoos daughters Zuma Aurvandil alliance? talk about playing to win.

This was quite a while before you joined Aurv, but as you may have noticed everyone else calls Sarit a he, and his character is actually male but Mendicant insists that he is a she, and upon finding out that Lady Sarit was in fact a he, he gave the order for his surgeons to correct the mistake. Thus, Lady Sarit is indeed a Lady for the High Sovereign wills her to be such.

Why not Haktoo herself?

And why ask her consent? Surely a grand king like Mendicant can wed whoever he chooses. Surely it would be a honor to all ladies (and daimonic females) to be wed to such a prestigious and benevolent ruler?

Mendicant is all for casual bestiality if it means he gets to conquer Haktoo with his penis, and Mendicant already has a unique item which grants him the power to walk through the Zuma lands with impunity, the High Sovereign walks where he may,  and conquers what he will, and really, Haktoo could do with strengthening her dynasty with Aurvandil, since everyone's eyeing the Zuma for conquest (Which totally isn't the same case for Aurvandil). Mendicant can be all gallant and protect Haktoo from the hordes of foreigners.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 12, 2012, 01:30:03 AM
This was quite a while before you joined Aurv, but as you may have noticed everyone else calls Sarit a he, and his character is actually male but Mendicant insists that he is a she, and upon finding out that Lady Sarit was in fact a he, he gave the order for his surgeons to correct the mistake. Thus, Lady Sarit is indeed a Lady for the High Sovereign wills her to be such.
Begins loling. Don't know how he came to agree with that, but when you're Medicant I guess you can be very persuasive.

Mendicant is all for casual bestiality if it means he gets to conquer Haktoo with his penis, and Mendicant already has a unique item which grants him the power to walk through the Zuma lands with impunity, the High Sovereign walks where he may,  and conquers what he will, and really, Haktoo could do with strengthening her dynasty with Aurvandil, since everyone's eyeing the Zuma for conquest (Which totally isn't the same case for Aurvandil). Mendicant can be all gallant and protect Haktoo from the hordes of foreigners.

stops loling. questions morality of interccourse with daemons. stops caring. resumes loling.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 12, 2012, 01:38:55 AM
We've seen the Daimon forces, the hordes they sent to protect Barca were less than a third of the combat strength Aurvandil could attack them with, and that was several Daimon lords.
So, that's a "No, I've never actually 'fought' a daimon horde before, I've just seen them in scout reports." Have fun.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 01:39:55 AM
Begins loling. Don't know how he came to agree with that, but when you're Medicant I guess you can be very persuasive.

No one denies the whims of the Highest of Sovereigns.

stops loling. questions morality of interccourse with daemons. stops caring. resumes loling.

Well, Mendicant could always delegate it to sex by proxy, have some one else run the risk of getting what diseases are inherent in whatever it is that passes for genitals in Haktoo. I mean, so long as some one took Haktoo to bed in Mendicant's name it's close enough, Mendicant's more about the submission than the actual act.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 01:42:46 AM
So, that's a "No, I've never actually 'fought' a daimon horde before, I've just seen them in scout reports." Have fun.

Well, it's not likely to come about since Terran seem determined to drag this war out as long as possible because an amicable peace is just so unpreferable to losing badly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 12, 2012, 01:43:45 AM
No one denies the whims of the Highest of Sovereigns.

Well, Mendicant could always delegate it to sex by proxy, have some one else run the risk of getting what diseases are inherent in whatever it is that passes for genitals in Haktoo. I mean, so long as some one took Haktoo to bed in Mendicant's name it's close enough, Mendicant's more about the submission than the actual act.

Send someone! Now! The hilarity would be worth a million Solarian lives!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 01:50:51 AM
Send someone! Now! The hilarity would be worth a million Solarian lives!

I would, were Aurvandil not in a very precarious position of about to suffer the BM equivalent of a precision air strike in a few weeks time. Since Sanguis Astroism are just about the only ones with the capital to launch a large force via sea with their ridiculous piles of gold they gained from sitting around in peace time with lots of cities, and they've apparently decided that Aurvandil is a good destination for whatever reason.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 12, 2012, 01:54:38 AM
It's the balmy climate. Much better than all this northern snow.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 12, 2012, 01:59:47 AM
Mmm... Palm trees and sand.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 02:03:02 AM
It's the balmy climate. Much better than all this northern snow.

See, Mendicant has a different problem, it's too warm, it's too humid and the plant life is too tropical. He almost had a fit when he saw that Madina had jungles, I mean jungles of all things! The squalor of it. Had he stuck around in the eastern provinces long enough he would have ordered it all to be cut down and replaced with a proper forest or paved over with civilisation.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 12, 2012, 02:03:26 AM
Mmm... Palm trees and sand.

Palm sea is a little too far to the East.

I'm sure Paislan sailors would be happy to guide you, though.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 12, 2012, 03:39:46 AM
Palm sea is a little too far to the East.

I'm sure Paislan sailors would be happy to guide you, though.

The palm sea might be too far east, but I believe we were talking about north-south divisions. Too cold up north with jagged coastlines and freezing winters. Nice and warm down south with sandy coastlines, palm trees, and buxom beauties! Who wouldn't want to live somewhere with scantily clad buxom women?!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 12, 2012, 04:00:58 AM
The palm sea might be too far east, but I believe we were talking about north-south divisions. Too cold up north with jagged coastlines and freezing winters. Nice and warm down south with sandy coastlines, palm trees, and buxom beauties! Who wouldn't want to live somewhere with scantily clad buxom women?!

Those who force them to veil up? :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 12, 2012, 06:44:03 AM
Well, it's not likely to come about since Terran seem determined to drag this war out as long as possible because an amicable peace is just so unpreferable to losing badly.

It isn't like you've offered an amicable peace or anything. Rather, you've stated you want to wipe Terran off the map. No one in Terran even thinks peace is a possibility because of this; it's a "fight for our lives" mentality there now.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 01:41:59 PM
It isn't like you've offered an amicable peace or anything. Rather, you've stated you want to wipe Terran off the map. No one in Terran even thinks peace is a possibility because of this; it's a "fight for our lives" mentality there now.

Interesting, I don't recall stating I want to wipe Terran off the map, or enacting such a policy, but then I'm only the guy who makes these policies and then declares them so I'm not really "in the know". I've never said I wanted to wipe Terran out, Terran however has made it clear they want to wipe Aurvandil from existence by one means or another, and they've made it clear they absolutely hate everything about Aurvandil when they spammed the Aurvandilan government with what can only be called hate mail rather than any sort of legitimate communique. Terran doesn't want to believe peace is possible because it's inconvenient for them to think like that, they'd much rather demonise Aurvandil as a mad animal trying to murder them all because it vindicates their own ridiculous misconceptions about Aurvandil, and justifies their policy of trying to have Aurvandil exterminated.

Terran insisted on this war anyway despite Aurvandil making it clear war wasn't in any of our interests, it's only fair that they fear for their lives against Aurvandil when they refusal the Aurvandilan requests to maintain peace. Terran raised their swords against us, they can't then act affronted when Aurvandil raises its own sword to defend itself against Terranese aggression.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 12, 2012, 02:41:29 PM
Interesting, I don't recall stating I want to wipe Terran off the map, or enacting such a policy, but then I'm only the guy who makes these policies and then declares them so I'm not really "in the know".

Uh...I play Gornak, and I remember quite clearly several letters that you sent that said that you liked D'Hara (although I don't know why), and that you wanted to destroy Terran because they were 'forcing' D'Hara to declare war on Aurvandil and attack you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 12, 2012, 03:10:04 PM
Ha. Dhara... That's what we heard over in Luria too.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 03:20:23 PM
Uh...I play Gornak, and I remember quite clearly several letters that you sent that said that you liked D'Hara (although I don't know why), and that you wanted to destroy Terran because they were 'forcing' D'Hara to declare war on Aurvandil and attack you.

I never said I wanted to destroy them, but I said something to the affect of I wanted to put them into their place.

And nobody knows why I like D'Hara, it's a fairly consistent whim Mendicant has, but we like to consider D'Hara to be an example of a benevolent republic, the better of the Veinsormoot. And well, as far as D'Hara was telling me Terran did basically force them to declare war on Aurvandil, which is the same line Barca gave as well, which is why Mendicant is now convinced of the inherent corruption and oppression in the Veinsormoot.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 12, 2012, 06:38:54 PM
Interesting, I don't recall stating I want to wipe Terran off the map, or enacting such a policy, but then I'm only the guy who makes these policies and then declares them so I'm not really "in the know". I've never said I wanted to wipe Terran out, Terran however has made it clear they want to wipe Aurvandil from existence by one means or another, and they've made it clear they absolutely hate everything about Aurvandil when they spammed the Aurvandilan government with what can only be called hate mail rather than any sort of legitimate communique. Terran doesn't want to believe peace is possible because it's inconvenient for them to think like that, they'd much rather demonise Aurvandil as a mad animal trying to murder them all because it vindicates their own ridiculous misconceptions about Aurvandil, and justifies their policy of trying to have Aurvandil exterminated.

Terran insisted on this war anyway despite Aurvandil making it clear war wasn't in any of our interests, it's only fair that they fear for their lives against Aurvandil when they refusal the Aurvandilan requests to maintain peace. Terran raised their swords against us, they can't then act affronted when Aurvandil raises its own sword to defend itself against Terranese aggression.

For someone who consistently complains of the all the bias against yourself you sure like to spew filthy propoganda about others a whole lot.


None of that is true, obviously. First of all you very well know you started the war by refusing to honor the Treaty of Evanburg, also you quite conveniently decided to have a hissy fit about how Barca/Terran/D'Hara are allied and so anything we decided together was therefore invalid or "corrupt."

Also, again, it isn't like you've offered any amicable peace or made it in any way apparent that such a thing would be possible. All of the communication we've received or heard form Mendicant is that he wants to march up and sack us, that we are stuck up (haha pot calling the kettle black), and that somehow big ole' Aurvandil is the victim here when Aurvandil has done nothing but quite purposefully ravage wreck the Maroccidens and the Véinsørmoot.

You knew quite well what buttons you were pushing when you decided to break the Treaty of Evanburg, steal regions from Barca, sack Rettleville and declare the 'Moot a bunch of uncivilized people living in huts. Just because you don't like/need alliances doesn't automatically absolve you of the blame for triggering a war that involves someones allies. It's fine I guess, you obviously have the strength to do it and that's kind of the point of the game, but at least don't try to pin it on Terran when talking OOC.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 06:58:40 PM
For someone who consistently complains of the all the bias against yourself you sure like to spew filthy propoganda about others a whole lot.

Oh, well my sincerest apologies I can only proffer my perspective on the issue and leave its factuality to be reviewed by those who capable of doing so.

None of that is true, obviously. First of all you very well know you started the war by refusing to honor the Treaty of Evanburg, also you quite conveniently decided to have a hissy fit about how Barca/Terran/D'Hara are allied and so anything we decided together was therefore invalid or "corrupt."

Incorrect, I have never broken the treaty of Evanburg. The treaty of Evanburg simply states that I am to return the townsland to Barca when they request, or at the end of the war and once the city is in a certain condition; Barca got greedy and demanded we make a certain number of recruitment centres, infrastructure and fortifications in the region before we hand it over. It's all well and good to say we broke the Treaty, but we haven't, the treaty is still in force.

And well, I didn't start the war with Terran, don't give me that wank. You know you started it when you declared war after Mendicant said "I'm making peace with Barca, don't interfere it'll escalate the war and remove the possibility of peace" and Terran said "!@#$ you we'll do what we want".  Not quite sure what your last point is, so I'll ignore it.

Also, again, it isn't like you've offered any amicable peace or made it in any way apparent that such a thing would be possible. All of the communication we've received or heard form Mendicant is that he wants to march up and sack us, that we are stuck up (haha pot calling the kettle black), and that somehow big ole' Aurvandil is the victim here when Aurvandil has done nothing but quite purposefully ravage wreck the Maroccidens and the Véinsørmoot.

Well, I offered amicable peace to Barca and D'Hara, and I tried to maintain peace with Terran, but Terran pretty much declared me an evil monster and after that I lost interest in speaking with them directly, and instead made strides to peace by proxy through D'Haran's PM and their Ambassador. And no, Aurvandil isn't the victim, Barca is, since they were forced to fight a war they can't fight, didn't want to fight and stood to lose everything from, which ended up in them remaining as a starving wreck begging the Zuma for aid.

But Aurvandil hasn't purposefully wrecked the Marocciden's, we've been entirely restraint, we never wasted your cities as we did to Madina, we never devastated your rurals as we could have. We contented ourselves with fighting you on the field of battle and routing you. Don't start whining when you lose a war you started.

You knew quite well what buttons you were pushing when you decided to break the Treaty of Evanburg, steal regions from Barca, sack Rettleville and declare the 'Moot a bunch of uncivilized people living in huts. Just because you don't like/need alliances doesn't automatically absolve you of the blame for triggering a war that involves someones allies. It's fine I guess, you obviously have the strength to do it and that's kind of the point of the game, but at least don't try to pin it on Terran when talking OOC.

You knew exactly what buttons you were pressing when you declared war on Aurvandil, don't throw a bitch fit when Aurvandil slaps you down for it and tells you, you should have kept the peace like we wanted.

Also, we didn't sack Rettleville, we didn't declare the Moot uncivilised people living in huts, we didn't break the treaty of Evanburg, stop talking bollocks and trying to act like you're the victim of anything other than your own stupidity in declaring a war you knew you couldn't win for bull!@#$ reasons in the first place. Don't try to put this on Aurvandil, we were the ones who quite strenuously petitioned D'Hara and Terran to uphold the peace, we are the ones who gave Barca a blank treaty and essentially told them to put whatever they like on it and within reason we would grant it in order to create a peace without grudges. Aurvandil is the one who offered Barca food when they starved, we offered D'Hara food when they starved, we offered them both peace when it was evident they were in no condition to continue a war. But you're upset because I didn't offer peace to Terran? Tough !@#$, you shouldn't have declared war, spammed me with hate mail and then pursued an obvious grudge for no good reason.

The reason Aurvandil never offered Terran peace, is because your government was so hideously obnoxious and vulgar to the Aurvandilan government, and both Barca and D'Hara began giving us the same story that they were being forced and manipulated into this war by certain parties in the Veinsormoot, which only leaves Terran.

To summarise, don't declare war if you can't accept the consequences, and don't declare war if you're going to cry when you're losing and get called out on your aggression.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 12, 2012, 07:13:58 PM
*Blatant lies.*


Whatever, man. You've got your head so full of playing Mendicant God-King that you can't even separate IC and OOC events.

I'm not whining that we're losing the war. We should lose the war. Aurvandil is a lot more powerful and our military has never been what it should be. There is nothing wrong with that, that's the game.

I just utterly cannot see how you can say you did not start the war. It's ludicrous. You took three regions from Barca and refused to give them back. You sent your General into Rettleville to tell all the Barcans they lived in Wood and Stick Huts and preceded to attack the city. When peace talks did finally break out between you and Barca you still refused to give the three regions you took back.

Then you say Terran sent you "hate mail?" What in the world?


Terran started the war and you defensively conquered Paisly. Good Lord, man. You're incredible.


Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 07:25:06 PM

Whatever, man. You've got your head so full of playing Mendicant God-King that you can't even separate IC and OOC events.

I'm not whining that we're losing the war. We should lose the war. Aurvandil is a lot more powerful and our military has never been what it should be. There is nothing wrong with that, that's the game.

I just utterly cannot see how you can say you did not start the war. It's ludicrous. You took three regions from Barca and refused to give them back. You sent your General into Rettleville to tell all the Barcans they lived in Wood and Stick Huts and preceded to attack the city. When peace talks did finally break out between you and Barca you still refused to give the three regions you took back.

Then you say Terran sent you "hate mail?" What in the world?


Terran started the war and you defensively conquered Paisly. Good Lord, man. You're incredible.

Blatant lies? The onus is on you for proof, because you cannot prove a single thing you've declared to be true, whereas I can prove everything I have claimed to be true. Don't give me anymore waffle about how its lies if you're incapable of finding a shred of evidence to say it is.

Did Aurvandil break the treaty of the Evanburg (Edit, not Maroccidens)? No, go look at the treaty and you'll find no terms were broken and the treaty is still in affect.

Did Aurvandil call the Maroccidens uncivilised hut people? Never, go find some evidence to say.

Did Aurvandil wreck the Maroccidens? No, the worst winter in the game did.

Did Aurvandil start the war with Barca? Yes, but then we completed our war aims and offered a peace of Barca's choosing, to Barca and petitioned the Veinsormoot to avoid a war as peace talks are in process and it isn't necessary for them to use military force to protect Barca.

Did Aurvandil refuse to hand back three regions to Barca? No.

Did Aurvandil refuse to return Evanburg? No.

Did Terran declare war on Aurvandil, whilst Aurvandil was in peace talks with Barca? Yes.

Did Terran refuse the Aurvandilan petition for peace? Yes.

Is Mendicant a God-King? Well it's only people like you who have declared him a God-King, for whatever reason, Mendicant has made a point of laughing it off.

Did Aurvandil defensively conquer Paisly? Well, we conquered Paisly as a defensive measure in reaction to Terranese expansion and aggression towards us, thus it's defensive.

Good lord man you need to get over this ridiculous grudge.

Also, by hate mail I mean that rubbish they sent me and other members of Aurvandil where they basically called us wild animals out to conquer the world and slaughter everyone as we rise up form our squalid cesspit of a civilisation. Note the fact Terran actually did go around saying things like that, when Aurvandil didn't, despite your claims that we did.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 12, 2012, 07:29:12 PM
Incorrect, I have never broken the treaty of Evanburg. The treaty of Evanburg simply states that I am to return the townsland to Barca when they request, or at the end of the war and once the city is in a certain condition; Barca got greedy and demanded we make a certain number of recruitment centres, infrastructure and fortifications in the region before we hand it over. It's all well and good to say we broke the Treaty, but we haven't, the treaty is still in force.

Okay, you have failed to comply with the provisions of the treaty that said that you needed to build recruitment centers, etc.

Quote
And well, I didn't start the war with Terran, don't give me that wank. You know you started it when you declared war after Mendicant said "I'm making peace with Barca, don't interfere it'll escalate the war and remove the possibility of peace" and Terran said "!@#$ you we'll do what we want".  Not quite sure what your last point is, so I'll ignore it.

Terran and D'Hara declared war, but with the express stated goal of returning 3 regions, as required by the Treaty of the Marcoccidens. If that truly was your goal, then you should have simply returned the regions and been done with it.

Quote
Well, I offered amicable peace to Barca and D'Hara, and I tried to maintain peace with Terran, but Terran pretty much declared me an evil monster and after that I lost interest in speaking with them directly, and instead made strides to peace by proxy through D'Haran's PM and their Ambassador. And no, Aurvandil isn't the victim, Barca is, since they were forced to fight a war they can't fight, didn't want to fight and stood to lose everything from, which ended up in them remaining as a starving wreck begging the Zuma for aid.

By "strides for peace", you mean insisting on giving up Paisly, abandoning our republic, and abandoning our allies?


Quote
But Aurvandil hasn't purposefully wrecked the Maroccidens, we've been entirely restraint, we never wasted your cities as we did to Madina, we never devastated your rurals as we could have. We contented ourselves with fighting you on the field of battle and routing you. Don't start whining when you lose a war you started.

You knew exactly what buttons you were pressing when you declared war on Aurvandil, don't throw a bitch fit when Aurvandil slaps you down for it and tells you, you should have kept the peace like we wanted.

I don't think anyone is whining about losing. We're just correcting your facts on the forums.

Quote
Also, we didn't sack Rettleville, we didn't declare the Moot uncivilised people living in huts, we didn't break the treaty of Evanburg, stop talking bollocks and trying to act like you're the victim of anything other than your own stupidity in declaring a war you knew you couldn't win for bull!@#$ reasons in the first place. Don't try to put this on Aurvandil, we were the ones who quite strenuously petitioned D'Hara and Terran to uphold the peace, we are the ones who gave Barca a blank treaty and essentially told them to put whatever they like on it and within reason we would grant it in order to create a peace without grudges. Aurvandil is the one who offered Barca food when they starved, we offered D'Hara food when they starved, we offered them both peace when it was evident they were in no condition to continue a war. But you're upset because I didn't offer peace to Terran? Tough !@#$, you shouldn't have declared war, spammed me with hate mail and then pursued an obvious grudge for no good reason.

A treaty is a bull!@#$ reason? This is an SMA continent, and I take my treaties seriously. And your offer of peace was unacceptable--insisting on giving up Paisly, abandoning our republic, and abandoning our allies.

Quote
The reason Aurvandil never offered Terran peace, is because your government was so hideously obnoxious and vulgar to the Aurvandilan government, and both Barca and D'Hara began giving us the same story that they were being forced and manipulated into this war by certain parties in the Veinsormoot, which only leaves Terran.

Rynn may have told you that, but Gornak (me) was very much in favor of the initial declaration of war on Aurvandil, for both IC reasons (Treaty) and OOC reasons (something fun for the realm to do).

Did Aurvandil break the treaty of the Maroccidens? No, go look at the treaty and you'll find no terms were broken and the treaty is still in affect.
You're not a signatory, of course you didn't break it.

Quote
Did Aurvandil refuse to hand back three regions to Barca? No.
Did Aurvandil refuse to return Evanburg? No.
Well, you didn't give them back, did you? I offer the map as evidence.

I just utterly cannot see how you can say you did not start the war. It's ludicrous. You took three regions from Barca and refused to give them back.

And--in the interest of balance--I'd like to point out that Aurvandil did not take the regions, they received them from defecting Barcan lords.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 12, 2012, 07:38:58 PM
Okay, you have failed to comply with the provisions of the treaty that said that you needed to build recruitment centers, etc.

And Barca failed to make the request for the handover, we can't hand it over unless they ask for it, since the treaty states it's until the Barcan senate vote for us to return it, which they didn't as far as I am aware.

Terran and D'Hara declared war, but with the express stated goal of returning 3 regions, as required by the Treaty of the Marcoccidens. If that truly was your goal, then you should have simply returned the regions and been done with it.

Well no, by this point the Veinsormoot interrupted the "duel" with Barca, abandoning all honour and previous terms of confrontation in doing so, and Barca agreed the war was to be fought as a duel, on a field of their choosing in a manner of their choosing. The Veinsormoot I recall, issued a challenge for Aurvandil to attack them in Maeotis, rather than issuing a demand for peace talks which would have been the forum for demanding a hand over of land.

By "strides for peace", you mean insisting on giving up Paisly, abandoning our republic, and abandoning our allies?

Most of that never happened. I gave up my demand for Paisly when Rynn asked for it, I never and I repeated NEVER demanded you abandon your republic and your allies, I said to Rynn  "If that's what you want to do, and if that's the path D'Hara wants to take, I'll support you, but it's not an obligation of peace" I basically gave Rynn a treaty-less peace, an offer of an alliance without demands on my part, so as to create an alliance of friends on equal footing, none above the other. Rynn of course would then present his own wants as Mendicant's demands to D'Hara for some reason.

A treaty is a bull!@#$ reason? This is an SMA continent, and I take my treaties seriously. And your offer of peace was unacceptable--insisting on giving up Paisly, abandoning our republic, and abandoning our allies.

It's bull!@#$ because it's unnecessary and arbitrary and quite clearly would do more harm for your ally than good. And those were not the terms of my peace, get it right if you're going to "correct me on my facts".

Rynn may have told you that, but Gornak (me) was very much in favor of the initial declaration of war on Aurvandil, for both IC reasons (Treaty) and OOC reasons (something fun for the realm to do).
You're not a signatory, of course you didn't break it.
Well, you didn't give them back, did you? I offer the map as evidence.

I offered it back, but Barca pretty much threatened Aurvandil with war which iced diplomatic talks. Mendicant asked that they address his concerns, and those of the defecting lords, Julius ended up saying "Hand 'em over or the Veinsormoot will rush you", to which Mendicant retorted by telling him to go back to Barca (something he refused to do) and wrote to Karana instead on the issue.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 12, 2012, 11:09:54 PM
I never said I wanted to destroy them, but I said something to the affect of I wanted to put them into their place.

And nobody knows why I like D'Hara, it's a fairly consistent whim Mendicant has, but we like to consider D'Hara to be an example of a benevolent republic, the better of the Veinsormoot. And well, as far as D'Hara was telling me Terran did basically force them to declare war on Aurvandil, which is the same line Barca gave as well, which is why Mendicant is now convinced of the inherent corruption and oppression in the Veinsormoot.

I'd dare say that, you know, Aurvandil invading Barca without provocation is the reason why their federated allies declared war on you... Terran could never have forced D'Hara to enter a war with Aurvandil, our obligation to Barca did.

And if you "never threatened Terran with destruction", then odds are the opposite is also true. I doubt their senate voted on such a motion. Instead, even in their hateful letters I saw from them, they rather ask that you return stolen lands to their rightful owners.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 12, 2012, 11:19:21 PM
I'd dare say that, you know, Aurvandil invading Barca without provocation is the reason why their federated allies declared war on you... Terran could never have forced D'Hara to enter a war with Aurvandil, our obligation to Barca did.
well if their federated allies had responded earlier, instead of waiting until barca and Aurvandil were in peace talks, to go and get themselves slaughtered then their would be no issue against either of you. But when you almost assure the destruction of your "ally" by attacking us, the "big bad" I think Barca would rather you not have "obliged" them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 12, 2012, 11:20:27 PM
well if their federated allies had responded earlier, instead of waiting until barca and Aurvandil were in peace talks, to go and get themselves slaughtered then their would be no issue against either of you. But when you almost assure the destruction of your "ally" by attacking us, the "big bad" I think Barca would rather you not have "obliged" them.

I really have a hard time believing this simplistic account of events.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 12, 2012, 11:24:22 PM
I really have a hard time believing this simplistic account of events.

Barca would have had a better chance of recovering and wouldn't have to becomes the daemons wipping boy.
You would have Paisly back by now and could focus on the lurians.
Terran wouldn't be facing Medicant's will or the gold sink that is this war.
If y'all hadn't attacked Aurvandil.

That's what I'm saying
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 12, 2012, 11:28:58 PM
Also the Evanburg wiki page refers to Sarit as a Marquess. That made me LOL
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 12, 2012, 11:39:20 PM
Barca would have had a better chance of recovering and wouldn't have to becomes the daemons wipping boy.
You would have Paisly back by now and could focus on the lurians.
Terran wouldn't be facing Medicant's will or the gold sink that is this war.
If y'all hadn't attacked Aurvandil.

That's what I'm saying

Let's get this straight, however: Aurvandil attacked and declared war on the 'moot. Aurvandil initiated the hostilities. Regardless of possibilities for peace or not, an attack on a member state is an attack on all member states, and our Treaty quite simply and publicly states so.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JPierreD on October 13, 2012, 12:08:41 AM
Let's get this straight, however: Aurvandil attacked and declared war on the 'moot. Aurvandil initiated the hostilities. Regardless of possibilities for peace or not, an attack on a member state is an attack on all member states, and our Treaty quite simply and publicly states so.

"We did attack you, but if you had not defended yourselves we might have achieved peace..." ::)
In other words: resistance is futile!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 13, 2012, 12:13:53 AM
Right, like:

"We didn't try to force Barca to change, we just told them they needed to adopt reforms by themselves."
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 13, 2012, 12:18:04 AM
Well they did up reforming if that's any help. They are now daemon loving indigants with 4 or so non connecting territories
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 13, 2012, 12:54:49 AM
Well they did up reforming if that's any help. They are now daemon loving indigants with 4 or so non connecting territories

And you still aren't happy.

Eesh, can't you ever make up your mind?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 13, 2012, 12:59:31 AM
well if their federated allies had responded earlier, instead of waiting until barca and Aurvandil were in peace talks, to go and get themselves slaughtered then their would be no issue against either of you. But when you almost assure the destruction of your "ally" by attacking us, the "big bad" I think Barca would rather you not have "obliged" them.

If Barca's ruler had provided any indication whatsoever to Terran and D'Hara that they were making good progress with the peace talks, then we might not have declared war on Aurvandil. Barca's ruler--through inactivity or just a lack of communication--led Terran and D'Hara to assume that an Aurvandilian army was about to return to Rettleville and slaughter them; we had no reason to believe otherwise. We made the strategic choice to taunt Aurvanil into attacking our army in Maeotis in an effort to spare Barca.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 13, 2012, 04:42:57 AM
Me and Hireshmont, together, were quite strong on communication. Appears that the same can't be said for our successors.

Barca tends to have communication problems, though. But we tend to love them anyway.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 13, 2012, 04:52:14 AM
Well history is writen by the victors... So like... Once Aurvandil finishes the pest control they can just write whatever they like on here and it'll be right :)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 13, 2012, 05:19:33 AM
Well history is writen by the victors... So like... Once Aurvandil finishes the pest control they can just write whatever they like on here and it'll be right :)

Nah, we'll just write them off from history completely after SA comes to send them to kingdom come.

Removed Glaurmring quote at his request.

Which is why they chose to attack the least SA-aligned block on the continent, the 'moot.

Which, as a consequence, makes conversion to SA, just for the sake of payback, become incredibly more alluring.

Way to turn neutral parties into foes.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on October 13, 2012, 02:06:28 PM
If we didn't have a united SA, we'd be dealing with an overpowered Thulsoma right now...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 13, 2012, 02:51:28 PM
Nah, we'll just write them off from history completely after SA comes to send them to kingdom come.
You doubt the power of chevaliers and long refits.




Which is why they chose to attack the least SA-aligned block on the continent, the 'moot.

Which, as a consequence, makes conversion to SA, just for the sake of payback, become incredibly more alluring.

Way to turn neutral parties into foes.

Pretty sure the Lurias are less SA aligned than the moot. I swear you guys are sore losers. Why can't you just join Aurvandil and take up the path of a chevalier. Medicant is an excellent baked and his cookies are the best I've ever tasted. They taste like victory and France
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 13, 2012, 03:06:24 PM
Pot, meet kettle. I swear I can't hear your criticisms over Aurvandil's weird, manic desire to convince everyone they're the Good Guy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 13, 2012, 03:10:57 PM
Removed Glaumring quote at his request.

Pretty sure the Lurias are less SA aligned than the moot. I swear you guys are sore losers. Why can't you just join Aurvandil and take up the path of a chevalier. Medicant is an excellent baked and his cookies are the best I've ever tasted. They taste like victory and France

Riiiiiight. Never mind the fact the most of their rulers have been SA priests for some time, now, and that they've done multiple moves to woo SA.

There was some SA in D'Hara, but there was more VE. There was some SA in Terran, but last I checked there was about as much (if not more) Triunism. As for Barca, there was some VE, but there never seemed to be much of anything else.

VE was much stronger than SA and Triunism in the 'moot until the starvations, imo. VE has deteriorated over time, and with the massive starvations that cause temple financing to be quite strainful, but the only thing allowing SA priests to spread their influence in what used to be VE lands and making conversion to SA more alluring to non-faithful is Aurvandil.

In a world of great powers, when one of them backstabs you, you tend to want to seek the other great power's support.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 13, 2012, 03:15:10 PM
Pot, meet kettle. I swear I can't hear your criticisms over Aurvandil's weird, manic desire to convince everyone they're the Good Guy.

And I was trying to convince him that we were the good guy how? I just said I like cookies and they are losing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 13, 2012, 03:16:47 PM
Pot, meet kettle. I swear I can't hear your criticisms over Aurvandil's weird, manic desire to convince everyone they're the Good Guy.

Some may be happy to see Aurvandil strike at the 'moot, but I doubt anyone outside of Aurvandil/Falkir seriously think that they are the poor victims they portray themselves to be on the forums.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 13, 2012, 03:31:33 PM
And I was trying to convince him that we were the good guy how? I just said I like cookies and they are losing.

Read: Aurvandil isn't some high mighty hero who's better than the 'moot. Aurvandil complains just as much about how 'everyone is against them', etc.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 13, 2012, 03:35:49 PM
Some may be happy to see Aurvandil strike at the 'moot, but I doubt anyone outside of Aurvandil/Falkir seriously think that they are the poor victims they portray themselves to be on the forums.

We don't portray our realm as "poor Victims" I'm trying to show you guys that Aurvandil isn't the "big bad" that you guys think it is. You obviously have a skewed view of this since you've been on the losing side of our army once or twice and have watched us beat your moot into a pulp. That's O.K. I understand you're angry because we seem like we can't be beat, but we really aren't the horrible atrocious witches that you think we are. Really I just want people to see us as another realm with its own quirks and intricacies like all other realms. Yea we have had our bad moments. Other realms haven't? You don't see any other realms get focused with so much hate and disdain for their faults, mishaps, or actions as you do Aurvandil.  Yes I'm complaining that everyone is against us because that is dang sure what it seems like sometimes.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 13, 2012, 03:44:15 PM
I'm going to hazard a guess that it's because Aurvandil has entitlement issues and high horse mentality.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 13, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
We don't portray our realm as "poor Victims" I'm trying to show you guys that Aurvandil isn't the "big bad" that you guys think it is. You obviously have a skewed view of this since you've been on the losing side of our army once or twice and have watched us beat your moot into a pulp. That's O.K. I understand you're angry because we seem like we can't be beat, but we really aren't the horrible atrocious witches that you think we are. Really I just want people to see us as another realm with its own quirks and intricacies like all other realms. Yea we have had our bad moments. Other realms haven't? You don't see any other realms get focused with so much hate and disdain for their faults, mishaps, or actions as you do Aurvandil.  Yes I'm complaining that everyone is against us because that is dang sure what it seems like sometimes.

I wasn't even there when Aurvandil defeated any D'Haran army, if beat any it did. What hurt us wasn't Aurvandil, it was starvation.

What happened is that Aurvandil signed a border agreement with Barca. Then decided not only to give lent regions back, but to keep and take more from them, with no provocation. It then decided it had the right to decide who was legitimate in Barca or not. It then decided it had the right to declare Barca to be a non-state. Then, it decided it would plop new colonies in our territories. All the while, saying the "evil 'moot attacked us, we never wanted war!"

Sure.

You forced this war onto us, and then claim it was never your intent when it was obvious attacking Barca would result in this. A few in the 'moot might have wanted war against Aurvandil, but it would have absolutely never have happened had you not broken your treaty with Barca and attacked them without provocation. (How can you seriously claim you haven't broken the "In the event that the cival war meets it natural conclusion, Evanburg will be returned to the Republic of Barca" provision...) You tried to force an unspecified government change in Barca, and then tried to mingle in D'Haran politics. Before the war, you wouldn't didn't feel like selling us food. Even if we were at peace and you had never attacked us, you make for a really !@#$ty neighbor.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 13, 2012, 04:37:41 PM
I wasn't even there when Aurvandil defeated any D'Haran army, if beat any it did. What hurt us wasn't Aurvandil, it was starvation.

What happened is that Aurvandil signed a border agreement with Barca. Then decided not only to give lent regions back, but to keep and take more from them, with no provocation. It then decided it had the right to decide who was legitimate in Barca or not. It then decided it had the right to declare Barca to be a non-state. Then, it decided it would plop new colonies in our territories. All the while, saying the "evil 'moot attacked us, we never wanted war!"

Sure.

You forced this war onto us, and then claim it was never your intent when it was obvious attacking Barca would result in this. A few in the 'moot might have wanted war against Aurvandil, but it would have absolutely never have happened had you not broken your treaty with Barca and attacked them without provocation. (How can you seriously claim you haven't broken the "In the event that the cival war meets it natural conclusion, Evanburg will be returned to the Republic of Barca" provision...) You tried to force an unspecified government change in Barca, and then tried to mingle in D'Haran politics. Before the war, you wouldn't didn't feel like selling us food. Even if we were at peace and you had never attacked us, you make for a really !@#$ty neighbor.

No we forced Barca into war. Whether you think so or not you had a choice as to whether to enter the war or not. I don't see how most of that had anything to do with what I last posted besides just trying to prove you you are against us. Most of those points have already been explained by Medicant IC and OOC and he is in a much better position to argue that than I am. We're not a really !@#$ty neighbor just a really !@#$ty enemy ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 13, 2012, 04:47:35 PM
No we forced Barca into war. Whether you think so or not you had a choice as to whether to enter the war or not. I don't see how most of that had anything to do with what I last posted besides just trying to prove you you are against us. Most of those points have already been explained by Medicant IC and OOC and he is in a much better position to argue that than I am. We're not a really !@#$ty neighbor just a really !@#$ty enemy ;)

You were annoying before we were at war.

Mendicant's explanations... So what if he didn't try to "force" D'Hara to become a monarchy? The mere proposal of aiding a transition is meddling in our business. So what if he didn't ask specific reforms from Barca, he still forced them to adopt some against their will. So what if Barca never asked for Evanburg (doubtful), the treaty still states he has to give it back once their war with Madina is over. As for Paisly, he agreed to give it back when we signed peace, and now he's gonna plop a colony there anyways?

The nuances he tries to bring are pointless.

You went to war against the 'moot. Wake up. Treaty of the Maroccidens, C) iii. All signing realms have an obligation, insofar as it is possible, to provide military aid for the defense of other signing realms, if they should come under threat by man, beast, or abomination. In particular, the cities of Paisly, Chesney, and Rettleville are regarded as joint security responsibilities of the signing realms, given their nearness to threats from man, beast, and abomination, and their nearness to one another. Not only you attacked Barca, but you sieged Rettleville, which is specifically mentioned in this article. Don't try to claim you didn't know the Treaty of the Maroccidens existed, you were made aware of it much before the war. We are a federation. It's like if we attacked Candiels, and then said "Oh, well we just attacked the duchy of Candiels, none of the other duchies had to attack us!"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 13, 2012, 04:50:35 PM
Riiiiiight. Never mind the fact the most of their rulers have been SA priests for some time, now, and that they've done multiple moves to woo SA.

Erm...as usual, your Lurian facts are pretty off-base.

To my knowledge, only one Lurian ruler has ever been an SA priest. I can't say for certain which rulers are or have been SA members (besides the aforementioned priest), but presently exactly 0 are SA priests. (As a matter of fact, I think that presently all the Lurian rulers are members of Aetheris Pyrism, though as Alanna's not a member I can't say for sure.)

The Lurias have always tolerated SA, and tried to remain in its political good graces. We will not, however, be ruled by it. Not now, not ever.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on October 13, 2012, 04:59:51 PM
Hey,i have an idea,why don't we all join SA and make Dwilight the most boring world to play in? Sounds like a plan?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 13, 2012, 05:05:37 PM
Removed Glaumring quote at his request.

And we aren't anyone's lapdogs, never were. But if we are getting closer to SA, it's because Aurvandil is forcing us to. Had Aurvandil respected their treaties and let us be, we never would have bothered to organize military cooperation with the North against them. Seriously, it's like America trying to organize putsches in Cuba, and wondering why the hell it then aligns itself with the USSR. Or China bullying Vietnam, and wondering why they align with the USSR instead of themselves. It amazes me how astounded Aurvandilians seem to be that we defend ourselves instead of just playing dead.

Erm...as usual, your Lurian facts are pretty off-base.

To my knowledge, only one Lurian ruler has ever been an SA priest. I can't say for certain which rulers are or have been SA members (besides the aforementioned priest), but presently exactly 0 are SA priests. (As a matter of fact, I think that presently all the Lurian rulers are members of Aetheris Pyrism, though as Alanna's not a member I can't say for sure.)

The Lurias have always tolerated SA, and tried to remain in its political good graces. We will not, however, be ruled by it. Not now, not ever.

Malus Solari was one. I seem to recall at least one or two Luria Nova rulers being priests of SA. Then there's the dukes and other government members, over time. That today none of the rulers is SA doesn't mean that historically, SA faithful had quite a few positions with pull in the Lurias.

Pardon my exaggeration, though. But the 'moot fought an SA realm (Kabrinskia, a theocracy!), something that the Lurias have never done.

Hey,i have an idea,why don't we all join SA and make Dwilight the most boring world to play in? Sounds like a plan?

If Aurvandil threatens the only non-SA realms with destruction, expect this to happen. It's really amazing how Aurvandil hates SA so much, but decides to strike at the least SA block of the continent. What do they expect us to do, join them!? We've put years of struggle into building our realms, against insane monster hordes which we managed to eventually push back, foreign threats which we prevented from having serious impacts to this point, and massive and recurring starvation which we finally had under control. After all of this history, do you think we want to fold under the reign of an uppity monarch with a victimization complex?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on October 13, 2012, 05:14:29 PM
Barca would have had a better chance of recovering and wouldn't have to becomes the daemons wipping boy.
You would have Paisly back by now and could focus on the lurians.
Terran wouldn't be facing Medicant's will or the gold sink that is this war.
If y'all hadn't attacked Aurvandil.

That's what I'm saying

As far as i know this is what would happen if you hadn't attacked Aurvandil as Lanyon said.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 13, 2012, 05:17:37 PM
Malus Solari was one. I seem to recall at least one or two Luria Nova rulers being priests of SA. Then there's the dukes and other government members, over time. That today none of the rulers is SA doesn't mean that historically, SA faithful had quite a few positions with pull in the Lurias.

I never claimed that there were not SA members in high positions. I am skeptical about multiple LN rulers having been priests, but as I don't have the facts in front of me (and wasn't even present for a chunk of LN history) I can't say for certain.

Quote
Pardon my exaggeration, though. But the 'moot fought an SA realm (Kabrinskia, a theocracy!), something that the Lurias have never done.

Given that Luria has, in its 4-year history, fought exactly 2 realms outside of Luria (Fissoa and D'Hara), that ain't saying much.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 13, 2012, 05:21:39 PM
As far as i know this is what would happen if you hadn't attacked Aurvandil as Lanyon said.

Except that despite what Lanyon said, you attacked the 'moot, and not the other way around.

Barca would not have sided with the daimons had Aurvandil not attacked it.
We'd have Paisly back and the Lurias wouldn't have back-stabbed us had you not triggered war with our federation.

I really find it astounding how you can, in all seriousness, claim you are the victims here, when it's pretty blatently clear to everyone else that you are the aggressors.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 13, 2012, 05:49:12 PM
Barca, Terran, and D'Hara never marched an army onto regions of Aurvandil. How can you say we attacked Aurvandil?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JPierreD on October 14, 2012, 01:52:38 AM
Malus Solari was one. I seem to recall at least one or two Luria Nova rulers being priests of SA. Then there's the dukes and other government members, over time. That today none of the rulers is SA doesn't mean that historically, SA faithful had quite a few positions with pull in the Lurias.

Luria Vesperi had a total of 0 Astroist rulers, dukes and lords.
Luria Nova idem.
Solaria had 1 Astroist ruler and 2 dukes (one of them the aforementioned ruler, the other ruling over the useless, cashless and foodless Divides).
Pian en Luries had 1 Astroist ruler, 0 dukes and 1 lord. And only when they were 1-region-large.

No, the 'moot is several times closer to SA than the Lurias are. Before Solaria there was never an Astroist temple in the Lurias.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lorgan on October 14, 2012, 02:21:00 AM
Before Solaria, Luria was the only blank spot on SA's religious spread map.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 14, 2012, 03:58:40 AM
lol, Glaumring. For all your claims of being clever and strategic, you failed to note that storming Kabrinskia suddenly (less than a day after peace was declared) would bring in Astrum. Then you whine about how 'everyone is against you' when your actions really encourage nothing but.

Also, SA doesn't want to see Terran dead (anymore?).

Exciting times to be had, in any case. SA+Veinsormoot vs Aurvandil+Asylon+Lurias.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 14, 2012, 05:55:30 AM
Considering the previous experiences regarding Asylon and its foreign policy, I'm sure we'd all be surprised.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on October 14, 2012, 06:53:35 AM
either move on from this flame fest, or I'm going to request a mod come in here. This is getting ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on October 14, 2012, 07:11:09 AM
either move on from this flame fest, or I'm going to request a mod come in here. This is getting ridiculous.
its definitely a heated discussion but I wouldn't call it a flame fest.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 14, 2012, 08:08:35 AM
either move on from this flame fest, or I'm going to request a mod come in here. This is getting ridiculous.

Moderator here. I don't see anything worth editing. There are disagreements but other than a "paint factory" comment from someone who ought to know better, none of the attacks are getting personal.

Also, while I have my moderator hat on, should I split all the Lurian comments into their own thread? Or rename this thread "the wars of the Moot"?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 14, 2012, 09:50:33 AM
Considering it's quickly becoming an island-wide war...!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Velax on October 14, 2012, 01:11:38 PM
I kinda agree with Glaumring. I have no IC knowledge of this stuff, but only from what's been said on the forums. Did Asylon !@#$ up by attacking Kabrinskia and bringing Astrum into the war? Sure. It was a stupid move. Does this mean its allies should abandon it? Tough call. Asylon seemed to be a stalwart, if sometimes unpredictable, ally to the Moot for quite some time. Asylon came to the aid of Terran when it was asked to, no questions asked. But when Asylon !@#$ed up and drew too much heat, Terran throws Asylon under the bus. Smart move? Maybe. Doesn't make you good allies, though.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 14, 2012, 02:17:27 PM
Terran didn't throw Asylon under the bus. Terran didn't even abandon Asylon. Terran went out of their way to ensure that Asylon took as little damage as possible. In fact, Terran is the reason that Asylon still owns Itau, as opposed to Kabrinskia.

First of all, according to the treaty, Terran had no obligation whatsoever to defend Asylon. Asylon had started an aggressive war against Kabrinskia. Terran's treaty with Asylon mandated help only in case Asylon was attacked, as it was a mutual defense pact. By starting their own aggressive war against Kabrinskia, Asylon released Terran from their obligations.

Second, even though they didn't need to, Terran laid put conditions in which they would come to Asylon's aid. This included putting all Asylon cities, and the southern 2/3rds of Asylon regions off-limits to the Astrum/Kabrinskia. If Astrum or Kabrinskia attacked Via or Itau, or started looting further south into Asylon's farmlands, the Terran would re-enter the war by launching an attack on Kabrinskia.

And that, boys and girls, is how Terran saved Asylon's ass, even though they were not under any treaty-bound obligation to do so.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 14, 2012, 04:08:44 PM
If you want a treaty that will last, then you must make sure that no party can force war upon the other.

You also need communication. Which Glaumring was great for, at the beginning. Until he started doing things on his own without mentioning it to us first, and doing all kinds of crazy stuff we didn't want.

Indeed, we did ditch him, but only once he became a lousy ally, a liability. We wouldn't have ditched him if things were going bad for him but was not the result of his own actions. He wasn't worth the risks of escalation anymore.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 14, 2012, 06:47:42 PM
1) The thing about 'mutual defense pacts' is that it's defensive. Just as Terran didn't expect Asylon to march onto Kabrinskian lands itself (although it did, but at their own volition), Asylon shouldn't expect Terran to march with it into Kabrinskia.

2) I thought Asylon was not part of the 'moot?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 14, 2012, 06:54:48 PM
2) I thought Asylon was not part of the 'moot?

Certainly isn't.

Being a monarchy played a significant role. Then Glaumring went all crazy, and that got rid of all desire to integrate them under some form or another.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on October 14, 2012, 08:20:04 PM
The treaty between Terran and Kabrinskia gave Kabrinskia permission to take Itau.  They said that they would not defend any of Asylons regions north of Upper Via.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 14, 2012, 10:11:48 PM
And Terran's working on signing alliances with SA, it would seem. Oh no, everyone's against Glaumring again.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 14, 2012, 10:12:20 PM
Astrum and Terran just joined in an alliance. Am i justified in saying !@#$ just got real? I'm excited! Vive la Souverain!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 14, 2012, 10:15:31 PM
Astrum and Terran just joined in an alliance. Am i justified in saying !@#$ just got real? I'm excited! Vive la Souverain!

So he's a she, now?

I hope Aurvandil's happy they made the 'moot seek the theocracies' support.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 14, 2012, 10:18:56 PM
Terran and Corsanctum signed an alliance, like, a week ago. That should have been indicative of the impending Veinsormoot-SA alliance.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 14, 2012, 10:24:47 PM
corsanctum? do they even have players :P astrum is the big dog is my point. and yea I messed up my French chenier. I never use French besides in this game :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 14, 2012, 10:29:51 PM
corsanctum? do they even have players :P astrum is the big dog is my point. and yea I messed up my French chenier. I never use French besides in this game :P

I find Aurvandil's poor usage of French to be mildly amusing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 14, 2012, 11:04:16 PM
Asylon is isolated because it botched up foreign policy. A quick look at Diplomatic Relations serves as proof.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 15, 2012, 12:43:14 AM
Please remove everything I have said in this topic. Im not going to involve myself in this anymore.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 15, 2012, 02:46:51 AM
I find Aurvandil's poor usage of French to be mildly amusing.

I don't think its supposed to be proper french.. Just like imitation french flavouring
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 15, 2012, 02:54:10 AM
I don't think its supposed to be proper french.. Just like imitation french flavouring

Whatever the intent be, it often looks ridiculous to me and I have to resist the urge to correct the speaker (usually Mendicant).

I understand what you mean to do, and I've got nothing against it. Heck, I've used some Russian for some of my RP stuff, and I probably botched it at least as bad.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 15, 2012, 02:59:00 AM
Whatever the intent be, it often looks ridiculous to me and I have to resist the urge to correct the speaker (usually Mendicant).

I understand what you mean to do, and I've got nothing against it. Heck, I've used some Russian for some of my RP stuff, and I probably botched it at least as bad.

Meant to do and actually... the only rp I did in aurvandil was my account deletion rp :)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 15, 2012, 03:30:32 AM
Whatever the intent be, it often looks ridiculous to me and I have to resist the urge to correct the speaker (usually Mendicant).

I understand what you mean to do, and I've got nothing against it. Heck, I've used some Russian for some of my RP stuff, and I probably botched it at least as bad.

*snort*

I have enough problem taking anyone seriously whose name means "beggar"—especially when they're supposedly a noble.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 15, 2012, 03:33:55 AM
*snort*

I have enough problem taking anyone seriously whose name means "beggar"—especially when they're supposedly a noble.

Who would that be?

Oh, you mean Mendicant, as in Mendiant?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 15, 2012, 03:34:47 AM
Who would that be?

Mendicant (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mendicant) ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 15, 2012, 03:36:06 AM
Mendicant (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mendicant) ;D
Haha, I didn't know that was a word in English.

The English always deform French words to make them sound exotic.  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 15, 2012, 03:39:37 AM
Mendicant, known for his intense oppulance... i'm sure the joke would have became apparent if we'd waited long enough...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 15, 2012, 06:05:46 AM
Moderator note: I have reviewed the entire thread and issued one warning. I also deleted any quote from Glaumring and any off-topic response to him, and any other offtopic content.

Also, offtopic posts in the middle, new thread split here: Talk about Villains (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3328.0.html)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 15, 2012, 08:23:05 AM
Moderator note: I have reviewed the entire thread and issued one warning. I also deleted any quote from Glaumring and any off-topic response to him, and any other offtopic content.

Also, offtopic posts in the middle, new thread split here: Talk about Villains (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3328.0.html)

How are quotes from Glaumring off-topic in regards to war in the Maroccidens?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on October 15, 2012, 05:52:01 PM
Mendicant (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mendicant) ;D

haha amazing, +1
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 15, 2012, 09:07:01 PM
OH we kill them left! we kill them right! we kill them under the bloodstars of night. From Aegir's deep to kabrinskia. They come young and old, plated in gold and we send them back in a beggars sack.

"Crusade! Crusade!" your mad men sing "Mendicant is no just king". And to that i say you'll meet our steel. For fruit and peasants is all you've killed.

It is so hard for you to see: The power of the commonwealth and her victory. I tell you now those shacks you live in will only be used when we take your wife in.

Now! go now! Fore us chevaliers take our sword and we form ranks. Your word nor stank will make us fear. In our precision march all we shall see is your rear.


(( I was feeling creative. anyways here's to a good war mates! cheers!))
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 15, 2012, 09:11:53 PM
How are quotes from Glaumring off-topic in regards to war in the Maroccidens?

He asked for all of his posts to be removed--someone else did that.
I went through and removed quotes of his.

And, nothing he wrote was actually about the war between the 'Moot and Aurvandil. So it was all offtopic, and all the replies to his posts were also offtopic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JPierreD on October 15, 2012, 10:13:15 PM
OH we kill them left! we kill them right! we kill them under the bloodstars of night. From Aegir's deep to kabrinskia. They come young and old, plated in gold and we send them back in a beggars sack.

"Crusade! Crusade!" your mad men sing "Mendicant is no just king". And to that i say you'll meet our steel. For fruit and peasants is all you've killed.

It is so hard for you to see: The power of the commonwealth and her victory. I tell you now those shacks you live in will only be used when we take your wife in.

Now! go now! Fore us chevaliers take our sword and we form ranks. Your word nor stank will make us fear. In our precision march all we shall see is your rear.


(( I was feeling creative. anyways here's to a good war mates! cheers!))

/me claps
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on October 15, 2012, 10:30:13 PM
He asked for all of his posts to be removed--someone else did that.
I went through and removed quotes of his.

And, nothing he wrote was actually about the war between the 'Moot and Aurvandil. So it was all offtopic, and all the replies to his posts were also offtopic.
this isn't the development or feature request board so what does it matter if its off topic?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 15, 2012, 11:00:37 PM
this isn't the development or feature request board so what does it matter if its off topic?

The replies to his posts wouldn't have made sense without his posts--everyone would look insane.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Marlboro on October 15, 2012, 11:56:02 PM
The replies to his posts wouldn't have made sense without his posts--everyone would look insane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=933hKyKNPFQ

Can we get rid of all this post-split discussion too? Maybe start a third thread about how threads shouldn't be split (?).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 16, 2012, 12:20:44 AM
Huh. SA allying with Terran. Does this mean they are going to finally bring their armies south?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 16, 2012, 12:46:19 AM
Huh. SA allying with Terran. Does this mean they are going to finally bring their armies south?

I doubt it's just for show.

I guess Aurvandil's going to feel some heat pretty soon for starting a war agains the 'moot.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 16, 2012, 02:48:56 AM
I doubt it's just for show.

I guess Aurvandil's going to feel some heat pretty soon for starting a war agains the 'moot.

We can only hope. Remains to be seen how effectively they bring aid from that far away.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 16, 2012, 02:57:02 AM
Maybe they want to use this opportunity to test out the new sea zones and see how fast they can travel south.

If they find it fast enough, they might actually start crusades again. Well that is what I hope at least.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 16, 2012, 03:01:15 AM
SA could reach Golden Farrow, and from there they could land in Agl or Celtiberia. I'm sure that some land-based scouts could find a safe landing zone.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 16, 2012, 03:09:59 AM
We can only hope. Remains to be seen how effectively they bring aid from that far away.

Boats can travel rather fast, and they have the gold for it I'd presume.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 16, 2012, 03:48:37 AM
Just to clarify, "SA" does not ally with anyone. Individual realms have chosen to ally with Terran, and, so I hear, send troops around. But unless you hear an announcement from the church, then the people doing it are not "SA". This is an important distnction, not an empty semantic exercise.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 16, 2012, 04:10:20 AM
Just to clarify, "SA" does not ally with anyone. Individual realms have chosen to ally with Terran, and, so I hear, send troops around. But unless you hear an announcement from the church, then the people doing it are not "SA". This is an important distnction, not an empty semantic exercise.

Sure. But in practise, seems like almost every SA realm in jumping in. Except maybe Kabrinskia, but fighting alongside them would be extremely awkward anyways.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on October 16, 2012, 04:11:32 AM
Just to clarify, "SA" does not ally with anyone. Individual realms have chosen to ally with Terran, and, so I hear, send troops around. But unless you hear an announcement from the church, then the people doing it are not "SA". This is an important distnction, not an empty semantic exercise.

Wouldn't it be better to allow people to believe what they will IC and not just shoot it down OOC?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 16, 2012, 04:16:50 AM
People can believe whatever they want IC. I'm not issuing an IG proclamation, just giving an OOC clarification.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on October 16, 2012, 04:34:27 AM
People can believe whatever they want IC. I'm not issuing an IG proclamation, just giving an OOC clarification.

Why? You know that most people's IC misgivings are also based on OOC misgivings, right?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 16, 2012, 04:36:46 AM
Why?
Because I felt like making a clarification.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 16, 2012, 04:56:15 AM
A somewhat necessary clarification, from some of the things I've seen.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 16, 2012, 08:06:42 AM
Except maybe Kabrinskia, but fighting alongside them would be extremely awkward anyways.

 ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 17, 2012, 11:29:43 PM
Heh, Aurvandil's got some pretty whacky diplomatic strategies.

Because obviously convincing D'Harans that setting up a colony in Paisly was in our own interests is going to work. Obviously.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 18, 2012, 03:46:34 AM
Heh, Aurvandil's got some pretty whacky diplomatic strategies.

Because obviously convincing D'Harans that setting up a colony in Paisly was in our own interests is going to work. Obviously.

Has anyone else noticed that the Paisly Duchy the Aurvandi set up is called the "Florentine City-State of Paisly"? What in the world? "Florentine" should have zero meaning in BM context....
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Velax on October 18, 2012, 07:30:17 AM
Well, Florentine can mean "served or dressed with spinach", so perhaps they are going to cover the city in green, leafy vegetables? Perhaps rename the city "Parsley"?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Eldargard on October 18, 2012, 07:59:48 AM
I personally do not see the big deal. People constantly borrow names and words for in game use from real world history or languages. They do not always line up perfectly but that really does not matter. How many character names are really from the medieval period of western Europe? Heck, look at region names! Many of them do not invoke a medieval European feel in my opinion. I am not expert in history though...

This game involves collaboratively creating a world that has a medieval feel. Few of us are experts in history and even if we all were there would still be disagreements about what fits and what doesn’t. As long as a name or use of language does not come off as too outlandish, I think we should really remain flexible.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on October 18, 2012, 08:06:12 AM
Has anyone else noticed that the Paisly Duchy the Aurvandi set up is called the "Florentine City-State of Paisly"? What in the world? "Florentine" should have zero meaning in BM context....
Lady Florence is the ruler of Aurvandil's planned colony.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on October 18, 2012, 08:08:23 AM
Much Madness is divinest Sense --
To a discerning Eye --
Much Sense -- the starkest Madness --
'Tis the Majority
In this, as All, prevail --
Assent -- and you are sane --
Demur -- you're straightway dangerous --
And handled with a Chain -


See you on the battlefield.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 18, 2012, 01:05:07 PM
I personally do not see the big deal. People constantly borrow names and words for in game use from real world history or languages. They do not always line up perfectly but that really does not matter. How many character names are really from the medieval period of western Europe? Heck, look at region names! Many of them do not invoke a medieval European feel in my opinion. I am not expert in history though...

This game involves collaboratively creating a world that has a medieval feel. Few of us are experts in history and even if we all were there would still be disagreements about what fits and what doesn’t. As long as a name or use of language does not come off as too outlandish, I think we should really remain flexible.

People do not, however, commonly borrow adjectives that relate to specific places and time periods in Earth history, and for a very good reason.

There was no Florence, Italy in BattleMaster, because there was no Italy, and no Europe. Therefore, describing something as "like Florence" (which is what Florentine means) is utterly meaningless IC.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 18, 2012, 01:11:55 PM
Has anyone else noticed that the Paisly Duchy the Aurvandi set up is called the "Florentine City-State of Paisly"? What in the world? "Florentine" should have zero meaning in BM context....

Florentine... because the lord's name is... Florence?

It's not RL toponomy burrowing, here...

That all of you did not see or realize this is surprising...

And if you are unhappy with that, go bash on Kabrinskia and Solaria who set the trend of naming realms after themselves. Because obviously, France called itself Marivingia in the days, and Great Britain called itself Tudoria.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on October 18, 2012, 01:25:04 PM
And if you are unhappy with that, go bash on Kabrinskia and Solaria who set the trend of naming realms after themselves. Because obviously, France called itself Marivingia in the days, and Great Britain called itself Tudoria.

On the other hand, China is named after the Qin dynasty, the Ottoman empire is named after its first ruler Otman, Liechtenstein is named after the ruling Liechtenstein family (not the other way around), America was named after Amerigo Vespucci, in addition to many modern examples.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 18, 2012, 01:31:02 PM
On the other hand, China is named after the Qin dynasty, the Ottoman empire is named after its first ruler Otman, Liechtenstein is named after the ruling Liechtenstein family (not the other way around), America was named after Amerigo Vespucci, in addition to many modern examples.

Non-european, non-european, okay, not comparable.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on October 18, 2012, 01:37:21 PM
Non-european, non-european, okay, not comparable.

China's name is not China in China. It is only the europeans that call it that way.

And the Ottoman empire is non-European in exactly the same way that Vienna is in Asia. :-)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on October 18, 2012, 01:45:50 PM
Florentine... because the lord's name is... Florence?

It's not RL toponomy burrowing, here...

That all of you did not see or realize this is surprising...

And if you are unhappy with that, go bash on Kabrinskia and Solaria who set the trend of naming realms after themselves. Because obviously, France called itself Marivingia in the days, and Great Britain called itself Tudoria.

Tudoria woukd be a far more interesting place than boring old England. Tired of your wife? Behead her! Tired of your minister getting on your case about said beheadings? Start your own church! Tudoria, where Men can be Men.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 18, 2012, 02:24:50 PM
Tudoria woukd be a far more interesting place than boring old England. Tired of your wife? Behead her! Tired of your minister getting on your case about said beheadings? Start your own church! Tudoria, where Men can be Men.

Kinda needs to be some treason in there somewhere for the beheading... The church was split by the Tudors... To allow devorce...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on October 18, 2012, 06:26:14 PM
Non-european, non-european, okay, not comparable.

Actually, the Ottoman Empire had a major hold on Southeastern Europe. <.< The more you know...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 18, 2012, 06:43:48 PM
They wouldn't have named the duchy after the lord. That is explicitly disallowed right on the page where you rename the duchy. That would be like defending your inappropriate RL reference for your duchy name by saying "no, no, we didn't use an RL cultural reference, we broke the rules and named it after the lord!"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on October 18, 2012, 07:06:01 PM
That is explicitly disallowed right on the page where you rename the duchy.

Why is this? Can't be named after the lord, or characters in general?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 18, 2012, 07:27:43 PM
Florentine... because the lord's name is... Florence?

If that's the case then it's just really weird and awkward, but I guess not wrong.

Naming a realm after someone is a lot different than turning someone's name into an adjective. Ohhh man, that realm is SO Tomian! And look over there at that beautiful Johnish coastline!



Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on October 18, 2012, 07:36:27 PM
If that's the case then it's just really weird and awkward, but I guess not wrong.

Naming a realm after someone is a lot different than turning someone's name into an adjective. Ohhh man, that realm is SO Tomian! And look over there at that beautiful Johnish coastline!
Is it that hard for people to see Florentine City-State of Paisly= Lady Florence's duchy that will soon be a realm? I guess I might just see it as easy as I learned of the plans for the duchy, then saw its name.  I don't see the issue with naming a duchy like that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 18, 2012, 07:40:34 PM
Is it that hard for people to see Florentine City-State of Paisly= Lady Florence's duchy that will soon be a realm? I guess I might just see it as easy as I learned of the plans for the duchy, then saw its name.  I don't see the issue with naming a duchy like that.

It didn't occur to me, but I didn't notice the Lord's name, either. Again, I clarified I don't think its wrong now that I know that. Just really weird and awkward to use someone's name as an adjective, lol.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on October 18, 2012, 07:50:45 PM
They wouldn't have named the duchy after the lord. That is explicitly disallowed right on the page where you rename the duchy. That would be like defending your inappropriate RL reference for your duchy name by saying "no, no, we didn't use an RL cultural reference, we broke the rules and named it after the lord!"

There is a huge margin between "Florentine City-State of Paisly" and "The Duchy of Florence Endellion". The second one is clearly against the rule. The former feels like more acceptable flavor text to me.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Velax on October 18, 2012, 08:01:27 PM
Just really weird and awkward to use someone's name as an adjective, lol.

That's such a Perthian attitude.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JPierreD on October 18, 2012, 08:08:42 PM
Why didn't this matter come up when The Falkirkian Freestate was made?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 18, 2012, 08:30:35 PM
Why didn't this matter come up when The Falkirkian Freestate was made?

I didn't realize, until just now, that that is a similar thing.


Granted, I frequently have my character's units named "Perthian Guard" or some such. Hm...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 18, 2012, 09:36:45 PM
I'm excited to see who wins the first battle against SA( yes i know that it isn't a crusade but it's easier to refer to the collective whole this way). Hopefully I will be able to get more people in Aurvandil to RP because it will certainly be a great oppurtunity
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 19, 2012, 12:05:04 AM
They wouldn't have named the duchy after the lord. That is explicitly disallowed right on the page where you rename the duchy. That would be like defending your inappropriate RL reference for your duchy name by saying "no, no, we didn't use an RL cultural reference, we broke the rules and named it after the lord!"

They wouldn't have? Oh really, now...

Also, it's fine for realms but not for duchies? Stupid, just stupid.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 19, 2012, 12:33:04 AM
They wouldn't have? Oh really, now...

Also, it's fine for realms but not for duchies? Stupid, just stupid.

They wouldn't have, Aurvandil may be many things but breaking the rules in a way that is blatently undeniable... they're not stupid enough to give so much firepower to the haters.

and what... Do the dev team just make up rules using a dart board now...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 19, 2012, 12:38:55 AM
They wouldn't have, Aurvandil may be many things but breaking the rules in a way that is blatently undeniable... they're not stupid enough to give so much firepower to the haters.

and what... Do the dev team just make up rules using a dart board now...

Blissfully ignoring the fact that it's a rule not to do so has not entered your mind?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 19, 2012, 01:02:44 AM
Blissfully ignoring the fact that it's a rule not to do so has not entered your mind?

No, I tend not to paint bullseyes on my chest while my enemies are holding a rifle.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 19, 2012, 02:36:24 AM
No, I tend not to paint bullseyes on my chest while my enemies are holding a rifle.

I renamed a duchy once, I didn't notice that rule. I wouldn't be surprised that, after seeing two realms on Dwilight be named after their founder, someone skims through these restrictions and names the duchy after a person.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 19, 2012, 02:41:02 AM
Lol, we kind of had a duchy named after the family that held a claim on it, but that changed recently.

The Duchy of "The Courts of Stone" sounds much better than "The Duchy of Greyhold"

8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 19, 2012, 02:58:27 AM
"The dev team" didn't make the rule.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 19, 2012, 04:16:53 AM
For the record, I suggest that the Aurvandil in this war is genuinely not fighting SA. They are genuinely fighting a large and actually kinda awkward coalition of realms with divergent interest. I thus suggest that the belligerent powers should be termed "Orvandeux" (Falkirk/Aurvandil) and "Allies" (Moot, assorted Astroist realms.... Fissoa-maybe-ish?)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 19, 2012, 04:33:07 AM
For the record, I suggest that the Aurvandil in this war is genuinely not fighting SA. They are genuinely fighting a large and actually kinda awkward coalition of realms with divergent interest. I thus suggest that the belligerent powers should be termed "Orvandeux" (Falkirk/Aurvandil) and "Allies" (Moot, assorted Astroist realms.... Fissoa-maybe-ish?)

+1
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 19, 2012, 04:56:07 AM
Just to clarify this for the 1000 times Falkirk is in no way shape or form in this war or an ally of Aurvandil. Their war with fissoa is a 100% completely different thing that does not involve chevaliers. This has been said by Mendicant both IC and OOC to me personally and yall a bunch.

Also, the reason I can and will continue to term that group as SA is because 4/5 SA realms are now allied with Terran and it's not really a mish mash of realms it's those 4 realms+ terran. Barca and D'Hara haven't even been seen since the battle of Maeotis
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 19, 2012, 05:24:18 AM
Just to clarify this for the 1000 times Falkirk is in no way shape or form in this war or an ally of Aurvandil. Their war with fissoa is a 100% completely different thing that does not involve chevaliers. This has been said by Mendicant both IC and OOC to me personally and yall a bunch.

Also, the reason I can and will continue to term that group as SA is because 4/5 SA realms are now allied with Terran and it's not really a mish mash of realms it's those 4 realms+ terran. Barca and D'Hara haven't even been seen since the battle of Maeotis

You're free to view it as a unitary bloc if you wish. I promise you, it ain't. If it were a big bloc that generally worked as a unit, they'd a been marching south a looooooong time ago.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 19, 2012, 05:54:08 AM
Ok ok so basically SA and their vassal realms, the moot...  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 19, 2012, 06:06:01 AM
It's nice to have friends in war. I completely understand if that concept is misinterpreted in Asylon, however.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 19, 2012, 09:10:12 AM
Ok ok so basically SA and their vassal realms, the moot...  ;D

Right, because we didn't just get done winning a war against an Astroist Theocracy or anything.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 19, 2012, 12:45:26 PM
It's nice to have friends in war. I completely understand if that concept is misinterpreted in Asylon, however.

It's amusing how people are apalled by the fact that the 'moot members can sway others to fight wars with them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 19, 2012, 01:36:53 PM
You're free to view it as a unitary bloc if you wish. I promise you, it ain't. If it were a big bloc that generally worked as a unit, they'd a been marching south a looooooong time ago.
Vellos gets to see, firsthand, how SA operates at the highest levels. Are you impressed, Vellos? Aren't we a model of efficiency and timeliness? ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 19, 2012, 03:31:34 PM
Vellos gets to see, firsthand, how SA operates at the highest levels. Are you impressed, Vellos? Aren't we a model of efficiency and timeliness? ::)

After I bitched and complained on a daily basis for long enough, ya'll got moving with pleasing haste, actually.

Now just have to make sure all those cogs and gears stay well greased... it's a complicated machine, this juggernaught of ours.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 19, 2012, 05:07:06 PM
Right, because we didn't just get done winning a war against an Astroist Theocracy or anything.

Aye, but we did it all by ourselves. Standing against Astrum and Kabrinskia and Corsanctum defenders. And we will continue to do so. We ally rarely and I would be hard pressed to form a federation with any nation at our current size. If Asylon had 10 nobles yes I would Ally/ federate but there is no really fun or good excuse for 20+ kingdoms to ally/ federate. Smaller kingdoms fighting between a few kingdoms is more fun than this current form of cluster!@#$ gameplay, gameplague. There is no pride to fight and die by your own words, its all to keep the order and protect corrupt and bloated power blocs. We will not support the zerg gameplay. We have purposeful limited alliance so that smaller kingdoms and the culture they bring the rp they bring has a chance to thrive. Currently it is black or white, big power blocs. Hopefully that will end soon or one day and kingdoms become prouder of their own culture and right.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 19, 2012, 06:59:41 PM
Aye, but we did it all by ourselves. Standing against Astrum and Kabrinskia and Corsanctum defenders. And we will continue to do so. We ally rarely and I would be hard pressed to form a federation with any nation at our current size. If Asylon had 10 nobles yes I would Ally/ federate but there is no really fun or good excuse for 20+ kingdoms to ally/ federate. Smaller kingdoms fighting between a few kingdoms is more fun than this current form of cluster!@#$ gameplay, gameplague. There is no pride to fight and die by your own words, its all to keep the order and protect corrupt and bloated power blocs. We will not support the zerg gameplay. We have purposeful limited alliance so that smaller kingdoms and the culture they bring the rp they bring has a chance to thrive. Currently it is black or white, big power blocs. Hopefully that will end soon or one day and kingdoms become prouder of their own culture and right.


Uh.. you realize for all your talk about wanting small kingdoms and hating big realms blah blah that Asylon is the 3rd biggest realm on Dwilight, right? Bigger than every other realm except for Aurvandil and Morek? Bigger than Astrum that you criticize for being so huge all the time? Bigger than literally every single SA realm except for Morek?

How are the power blocs in anyway black and white? That's ridiculous. If anyone would have said 6 months ago that soon a bunch of SA realms were allied to some 'Moot realms they would have called you crazy. If anything, most people thought that the next major war coming was most likely to be SA v. the 'Moot. Despite your rhetoric, Dwilight is one of the most politically dynamic continents in the game.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 19, 2012, 07:03:43 PM
How are the power blocs in anyway black and white? That's ridiculous. If anyone would have said 6 months ago that soon a bunch of SA realms were allied to some 'Moot realms they would have called you crazy. If anything, most people thought that the next major war coming was most likely to be SA v. the 'Moot. Despite your rhetoric, Dwilight is one of the most politically dynamic continents in the game.

I completely agree.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 19, 2012, 09:33:54 PM

Uh.. you realize for all your talk about wanting small kingdoms and hating big realms blah blah that Asylon is the 3rd biggest realm on Dwilight, right? Bigger than every other realm except for Aurvandil and Morek? Bigger than Astrum that you criticize for being so huge all the time? Bigger than literally every single SA realm except for Morek?

Well how else do you smash large power blocks into small realms. Just because Glaum wants many small realms on dwilight doesn't mean that he should limit himself to single dutchy realms and city states while he achives that goal... Doing so would be absurdly stupid
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 19, 2012, 10:32:55 PM
Well how else do you smash large power blocks into small realms. Just because Glaum wants many small realms on dwilight doesn't mean that he should limit himself to single dutchy realms and city states while he achives that goal... Doing so would be absurdly stupid

Right, because when one seeks smaller kingdoms, creating smaller kingdoms himself is an utterly ridiculous idea.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 19, 2012, 10:38:30 PM
Right, because when one seeks smaller kingdoms, creating smaller kingdoms himself is an utterly ridiculous idea.

You realize asylon made a colony about a month ago right? If that isn't trying to create new realms idk what is.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 19, 2012, 11:24:59 PM
You realize asylon made a colony about a month ago right? If that isn't trying to create new realms idk what is.

A colony that wasn't there when I left the game for a short while, and that wasn't there anymore when I came back.

I'm sure they put a lot of effort into that one. I think even the squatters in Port Nebel lasted longer than they did...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 19, 2012, 11:31:27 PM
Right, because when one seeks smaller kingdoms, creating smaller kingdoms himself is an utterly ridiculous idea.

Making small kingdoms when there are big kingdoms seems worse than making a big kingdom and trying to destroy the bigger kingdoms then make lots of smaller kingdoms
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 19, 2012, 11:42:48 PM
So, it's all well and good when Auravandil and Asylon do it, but bad and harassment when SA and the 'moot do it?

Double standards are double, heh.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 12:03:21 AM
What are you talking about? Angroth starved and will rise again as a mini kingdom when the time is right. Asylon was formed in revolution and I always encouraged freedom of the duchies. And numerous times suggested the kingdom break into 3 seperate kingdoms. Since the game is moving towards larger and larger power blocs the only way to survive now adays is alliance federate with everyone. If I was insured that 5 permanently federated realms with a combined noble count triple that of Asylons with economies to boot were going to borg the whole map I'd push for more indepence of kingdoms. The same concept Aurvandiil has for its fronlines , advance and build kingdoms and let them fo what they want. More fun and dynamic.

Chances of rebels and disorder should be tweaked higher the further a region is from a capital to encourage kingdom growth.

And dont be so proud of how things have worked for the moot, oh wow not a few months ago SA was pushing to wipe out and now you are friends. You are friends because of fear, because without them you are dead. Its not a point of pride.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 20, 2012, 12:41:41 AM
So, it's all well and good when Auravandil and Asylon do it, but bad and harassment when SA and the 'moot do it?

Double standards are double, heh.

What are you even blabbering on about?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 01:02:47 AM
No !@#$, every time I show up to a party my entourage is right behind me.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 02:32:49 AM
Making small kingdoms when there are big kingdoms seems worse than making a big kingdom and trying to destroy the bigger kingdoms then make lots of smaller kingdoms

The 'moot is three federated realms, and we do just fine.

Also, if you are waiting for Astrum to be destroyed before setting up smaller realms, you'll never do it. If Asylonians are so united and strong and whatnot, splitting up will only make your tax tolerance higher. Being attacked wouldn't be a problem, because all of the realm fragments would join in to defend as one.

I suspect there's more to it than that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 02:46:56 AM
Not waiting for Astrum to be destroyed. Dont really care about Astrum.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 03:03:08 AM
Not waiting for Astrum to be destroyed. Dont really care about Astrum.

Whose the big nation next door you are waiting for to break up before doing so yourself, then?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 20, 2012, 03:18:09 AM
The 'moot is three federated realms, and we do just fine.

and we do just fine.

just fine.

fine.

This made me LOL. fine? one of the realms is barely even alive. D'Hara backed out of the war and you guys had to call in SA to stay alive. How is any way are you doing just fine?
 
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 20, 2012, 03:22:48 AM
... there is no really fun or good excuse for 20+ kingdoms to ally/ federate. Smaller kingdoms fighting between a few kingdoms is more fun than this current form of cluster!@#$ gameplay, gameplague. There is no pride to fight and die by your own words, its all to keep the order and protect corrupt and bloated power blocs. We will not support the zerg gameplay.
And you wonder why people are hostile toward you on the forums.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 20, 2012, 03:25:20 AM
Asylon was formed in revolution...
No, Asylon was founded by a peaceful colony mission from Caerwyn. The revolution you led came much later.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on October 20, 2012, 03:54:07 AM
The 'moot is three federated realms, and we do just fine.

Also, if you are waiting for Astrum to be destroyed before setting up smaller realms, you'll never do it. If Asylonians are so united and strong and whatnot, splitting up will only make your tax tolerance higher. Being attacked wouldn't be a problem, because all of the realm fragments would join in to defend as one.

I suspect there's more to it than that.

The moot is three federated realms and was doing just fine until Aurvandil ate Barca amd Winter almostndestroyed D'hara.

Fixed!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 20, 2012, 03:56:32 AM
What are you even blabbering on about?

Read: Somehow, it's all fair and good when Asylon created Angroth or when Aurvandil created Falkirk, but apparently it's a massive affront when the SA realms created their theocracies.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 04:05:56 AM
Nevermind Feylonis, she is a fickle cheerleader.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 04:08:57 AM
No, Asylon was founded by a peaceful colony mission from Caerwyn. The revolution you led came much later.

Yes, and that is when it was founded. I am the bear, the fox and crow. You will never catch me!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 04:27:23 AM
The moot is three federated realms and was doing just fine until Aurvandil ate Barca amd Winter almostndestroyed D'hara.

Fixed!

Nothing but a flesh wound.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 05:01:58 AM
And you wonder why people are hostile toward you on the forums.

People are hostile because I speak my mind, play how I want to play, value my friendships IG and do not march to the tune being drummed out on these forums everyday and IG. I am a firebrand and swashbuckling rogue and as long as I play on Dwilight as Glaumring I will always be this way. I have learned one thing in life, those who value you or find good in what you do are all that matters. I cannot please you, you must make the decision by yourself. I salute the Bowie Ironsides in the ones who have that fire burning inside them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 20, 2012, 05:08:49 AM
Yes, and that is when it was founded. I am the bear, the fox and crow. You will never catch me!

What are you even smoking? Asylon was founded through a colony takeover of Echiur. Stop it with your self-entitled vanity.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 05:12:35 AM
Asylon started out as treacherous towards Caerwyn.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 20, 2012, 05:21:16 AM
People are hostile because I speak my mind, play how I want to play, value my friendships IG and do not march to the tune being drummed out on these forums everyday and IG. I am a firebrand and swashbuckling rogue and as long as I play on Dwilight as Glaumring I will always be this way. I have learned one thing in life, those who value you or find good in what you do are all that matters. I cannot please you, you must make the decision by yourself. I salute the Bowie Ironsides in the ones who have that fire burning inside them.

People are hostile to you because you change your mind repeatedly in forum posts and play erratically.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 20, 2012, 05:33:12 AM
People are hostile to you because you change your mind repeatedly in forum posts and play erratically (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2704.0.html).

+1

From what I've seen, yup.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 06:01:55 AM
Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.
---Walt Whitman

And He (Jesus) asked him (the man), "What is thy name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion: for we are many."[1]
The Gospel of Luke, Luke 8:30, describes the following in the country of the Gadarenes:

And Jesus asked him, saying, "What is thy name?" And he said, "Legion": because many devils were entered into him.[2]

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 20, 2012, 06:14:10 AM
. . .

So, how's the SA-Veinsormoot army moving along?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 20, 2012, 09:49:19 AM
Basically this:

Glaumring criticizes large power blocks and "big realms" saying he prefers small, independent realms, etc.

Glaumring criticizes SA and the 'Moot for being "large power blocks" and "big realms"

Who has created more colonies and new small realms than anyone? SA.

What organization was founded upon, and is made up of, the idea of small independent realms? The 'Moot.

Who are the two number 1 and 3 biggest single realms on the continent? Asylon and Aurvandil.

Who does Glaumring always support on the forums? Asylon and Aurvandil.


The hypocrisy is astounding.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tom on October 20, 2012, 01:51:16 PM
Moderator Notice:

Can we cut out the personal attacks, please. That goes to everyone. Thank you.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 02:52:40 PM
Please remove the swastika link , not that im embarrassed by it but feel its not needed here and a very weak attack made by ignorance.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 02:56:57 PM
The 'moot suffered a temporary setback. Our glory is always cyclic. D'Hara's regaining all of her lands, Terran lost none and big armies are coming to help retake regions for Barca.

The starvation was unusual, and possibly the last of its kind. Thanks to the intervention of northerners, I'm confident to say that it was all but a flesh wound.

We'll recover, and we'll have made strong friends in the process.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on October 20, 2012, 04:22:26 PM
I am looking forward to the day that Celtiberia, Kydonia, Gallaecia and Evanburg fly the Barcan banner.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 04:29:20 PM
I am looking forward to the day that Celtiberia, Kydonia, Gallaecia and Evanburg fly the Barcan banner.

As am I. D'Hara saw a moment of glory a few months ago, it's time for Barca to reach theirs and claim all of these regions they are supposed to hold.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 05:29:57 PM
We could send a defense force to help with that. Monster hunters etc.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 20, 2012, 07:40:04 PM
I am looking forward to the day that Celtiberia, Kydonia, Gallaecia and Evanburg fly the Barcan banner.

You might better look to the past because we have no intent of losing this war or our regions.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 07:47:57 PM
You might better look to the past because we have no intent of losing this war or our regions.

You may not intend to lose it, but we don't intend to let that stop us.

Mendicant's blackmail of D'Hara failed. Now, he talks to us as if giving Paisly back would be a "gain" for us, when it'd be simply returning to the state of things before Aurvandilian aggression. And as if we'd want to make any concessions for Paisly when the northern armies are about to liberate it for us anyways.

Mendicant is afraid, and it shows. Time for the bully to be bullied, and for the 'moot to grow stronger and deeper roots than ever in the region. Barca will regain all of the lost lands, and take the lands it never got to claim. One way or another.

The only question is whether a crippled Aurvandil will remain, or if it will be annexed to Barca or simply turned into a new colony.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 20, 2012, 08:33:07 PM
You may not intend to lose it, but we don't intend to let that stop us.

Mendicant's blackmail of D'Hara failed. Now, he talks to us as if giving Paisly back would be a "gain" for us, when it'd be simply returning to the state of things before Aurvandilian aggression. And as if we'd want to make any concessions for Paisly when the northern armies are about to liberate it for us anyways.

Mendicant is afraid, and it shows. Time for the bully to be bullied, and for the 'moot to grow stronger and deeper roots than ever in the region. Barca will regain all of the lost lands, and take the lands it never got to claim. One way or another.

The only question is whether a crippled Aurvandil will remain, or if it will be annexed to Barca or simply turned into a new colony.

We? last I heard y'all are staying neutral, and if you think SA is actually going to give you Paisly back IF they can take it from us, well i guess you're more naive than I would have guess. Liberate it for you. wow.... OH yes! let's help non-astroist realms that we have warred with before and used to be one of our biggest rivals before getting ROFLSTOMPED by the enemy we're fighting. yea sounds JUST like SA.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on October 20, 2012, 08:38:37 PM
IF Aurvandil gets destroyed you can expect that to happen to the moot as well. You can kiss as many a**** as you can, but it will happen, it will be just the matter of time.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 08:46:48 PM
Of course it will, we/ they are non-theocracies.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 10:03:06 PM
We? last I heard y'all are staying neutral, and if you think SA is actually going to give you Paisly back IF they can take it from us, well i guess you're more naive than I would have guess. Liberate it for you. wow.... OH yes! let's help non-astroist realms that we have warred with before and used to be one of our biggest rivals before getting ROFLSTOMPED by the enemy we're fighting. yea sounds JUST like SA.

It's not because you have no friends and influence that we don't either. D'Hara will have the duchy of Paisly back, whether Aurvandil wants it or not, one way or another. The more Aurvandil waits, the more D'Harans are pissed off about the squatters in their regions.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 20, 2012, 10:09:08 PM
It's not because you have no friends and influence that we don't either. D'Hara will have the duchy of Paisly back, whether Aurvandil wants it or not, one way or another. The more Aurvandil waits, the more D'Harans are pissed off about the squatters in their regions.

I don't see Dhara surviving with the current political clime. Sad, but true.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 10:13:34 PM
I don't see Dhara surviving with the current political clime. Sad, but true.

Because of the pathetic Lurian imperialists?

With the northerners coming against Aurvandil, I feel quite confident. For as long as we remain alone against the Lurias, I can see the battles going both ways, but I do not see the possibility of things going really bad, should they go bad.

If Lurians try to sail to D'Hara, we'll just laugh at them when they try to go back home. We've got harbors on the isles and on the continent, they don't. Any attack on our core isles would be extremely costly for the Lurias.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 20, 2012, 10:17:50 PM
Because of the pathetic Lurian imperialists?

With the northerners coming against Aurvandil, I feel quite confident. For as long as we remain alone against the Lurias, I can see the battles going both ways, but I do not see the possibility of things going really bad, should they go bad.

If Lurians try to sail to D'Hara, we'll just laugh at them when they try to go back home. We've got harbors on the isles and on the continent, they don't. Any attack on our core isles would be extremely costly for the Lurias.

Well, that was unnecessarily rude. Pathetic? We could sit here all day calling you D'Harans names too, but on the forum don't you think that's pretty childish?

Cost isn't an issue for Luria. Reclaiming historical lands is. Even Morek recognizes the claim of Luria. You might want to rethink your undeserved superiority complex Chénier.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 10:26:19 PM
Well, that was unnecessarily rude. Pathetic? We could sit here all day calling you D'Harans names too, but on the forum don't you think that's pretty childish?

Cost isn't an issue for Luria. Reclaiming historical lands is. Even Morek recognizes the claim of Luria. You might want to rethink your undeserved superiority complex Chénier.

I'd have expected the Lurias to steamroll us. So compared to my expectations, it is kinda pathetic. I mean, seriously, the Lurian attacks I've seen involved a handful of their nobles at most... even the smallest of realms could have managed better. I still have no understanding whatsoever how these two realms have managed to do so poorly for so long. Pathetic is a very strong word, but with D'Hara's starvation, its other war, and the element of surprise, I can't understand why the Lurias haven't TOed all of Sallowcape by now.

Also, reclaiming historical lands is bullocks. The Lurias never owned that land. On top of that, Solaria and Luria Nova had both agreed with Machiavel that the Lurias ended east of the Desert of Silhouettes.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 20, 2012, 10:34:04 PM
If Luria were truly united as opposed to the fractious collective of individuals that it is, the initial assaults would have gone far better.

That's why there is a formal treaty in place between solaria and morek where all of Lower Toprak belongs to Luria, right? Because its bullocks? Your denial worries me.

You can try to manipulate the facts into making yourself look more important, but the fact remains that it is a legitimate Cassus Belli.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 20, 2012, 10:34:23 PM
I own the isles, been there since Melodia, Shadovar and later D'Hara. My claim is the strongest ever  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 10:40:51 PM
If Luria were truly united as opposed to the fractious collective of individuals that it is, the initial assaults would have gone far better.

That's why there is a formal treaty in place between solaria and morek where all of Lower Toprak belongs to Luria, right? Because its bullocks? Your denial worries me.

You can try to manipulate the facts into making yourself look more important, but the fact remains that it is a legitimate Cassus Belli.

So they signed a contradictory agreement with Morek. So what? They still conceded that land to D'Hara, and broke their word to us. We aren't going to forget that just because, for some unknown reason, Morek agreed to "recognize" your claim on regions that were flying our flag and had never belonged to the Lurias.

And you'd think that if the regions had mattered that much to the Lurias back then, and that they hadn't come to such an agreement with Machiavel, they'd have complained more on the ruler channel about our expansion into that territory, no?

Had D'Haran suspected the Lurias' fighting capacity to be what it has shown to be, we'd have invaded you long ago, just to teach you a lesson for your constant unwarranted threats.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 20, 2012, 10:46:02 PM
So they signed a contradictory agreement with Morek. So what? They still conceded that land to D'Hara, and broke their word to us. We aren't going to forget that just because, for some unknown reason, Morek agreed to "recognize" your claim on regions that were flying our flag and had never belonged to the Lurias.

And you'd think that if the regions had mattered that much to the Lurias back then, and that they hadn't come to such an agreement with Machiavel, they'd have complained more on the ruler channel about our expansion into that territory, no?

Had D'Haran suspected the Lurias' fighting capacity to be what it has shown to be, we'd have invaded you long ago, just to teach you a lesson for your constant unwarranted threats.

 Lol. Keep telling yourself whatever you want that makes you feel better.

Unwarranted threats? Since I rejoined the game in february, we sold you food at a decent rate and then listened to you make grumblings about invading us. And you can play the hindsight game all you want. The past is the past. Current evolutions of political climates are all that matter.

Lose the chip on your shoulder Chénier. Seriously.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 20, 2012, 10:56:38 PM
The Morek Empire, the Kingdom of Pian en Luries and the realm of Solaria declare herewith their friendship. The signatory realms recognize that each other's area of influence extend in their traditional lands, that is Southern Toprak, including Sallowsite cape and the Divide Mountains, as well as Tranquil, for the lurian powers of Pian en Luries and Solaria, and Northern Toprak, including the Forests north of Nyuushi and the Flow peninsula for the Morek Empire, and will respect their respective primacy on these areas.

Timeline
This treaty was created on 2011-12-24.
It was last updated on 2011-12-30.
Current Signatories
Morek Empire (signed)
Solaria (signed)
----------

Notice, Sevastian didn't draft it. He didn't even exist at the time. So whatever Machiavel might have done and said obviously wasnt that important to anyone but him.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2012, 11:00:20 PM
Lol. Keep telling yourself whatever you want that makes you feel better.

Unwarranted threats? Since I rejoined the game in february, we sold you food at a decent rate and then listened to you make grumblings about invading us. And you can play the hindsight game all you want. The past is the past. Current evolutions of political climates are all that matter.

Lose the chip on your shoulder Chénier. Seriously.

Keep telling myself what?

If you mean the border agreement, you can be sure my character's going to be pushing that a lot. It makes the Lurias agreement-breakers, why wouldn't he? He has nothing to lose by doing so, much to gain.

So, since febuary, you hear rumblings of D'Harans being tired of Lurian imperialism..? Poor you, we've only been hearing Lurian rumblings of lurian invasion since 2008.

Solaria agreed to sell some food, but were unfriendly trading partners. The rest of the Lurias never wanted to trade with us... Heck, they barely replied to any of our missives, didn't even want to sign formal peace. The rare times Luria Nova replied, the discussions were short-lived, lasted a few exchanges at most.

For four years, D'Harans have struggled to prevent invasion from the Lurias, sometimes making hard concessions to other powers for their protection. I think a D'Haran-Lurian was in order. It was about time.

(treaty)
Notice, Sevastian didn't draft it. He didn't even exist at the time. So whatever Machiavel might have done and said obviously wasnt that important to anyone but him.

I'm quite aware of that. The Lurians don't care to keep their words, and the others didn't know about it. However, the D'Haran-Lurian agreement will be made known.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 20, 2012, 11:10:03 PM
/me shrugs.

A D'Haran-Lurian agreement that no one has ever heard of outside of you trying to press it into people's heads will not garner support.

This conversation is going nowhere and is tangentizing off of the topic. Good luck in the war and with whatever claims you think you have.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 21, 2012, 12:02:18 AM
/me shrugs.

A D'Haran-Lurian agreement that no one has ever heard of outside of you trying to press it into people's heads will not garner support.

This conversation is going nowhere and is tangentizing off of the topic. Good luck in the war and with whatever claims you think you have.

Time will tell.

As the saying goes, however, "the victors write history". What may have been unknown to most and ignored by the others will recognized continentally, in the end, if D'Hara wins. 'Cause no one's gonna care to uphold Luria's "claim" to these region if they get defeated. The Lurias have no friends, just enemies and uncaring neighbors.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 21, 2012, 12:05:03 AM
The Lurias have no friends, just enemies and uncaring neighbors.

Quite possibly the most ignorant sentence ever posted.

Your delusions are entertaining.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 21, 2012, 12:12:54 AM
Quite possibly the most ignorant sentence ever posted.

Your delusions are entertaining.

Woelfy your adorable. Your like this small child desperately defending his elder brother in a schoolyard arguement but he doesn't much know what the big kids are talking about.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on October 21, 2012, 12:33:49 AM
So what would be more fun to roleplay - an ordinary war, or a crusade? Just throwing that out there as a purely hypothetical question of potentially no consequences or relevance to anything.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 21, 2012, 01:05:31 AM
Woelfy your adorable. Your like this small child desperately defending his elder brother in a schoolyard arguement but he doesn't much know what the big kids are talking about.

Unfortunately, I do know what 'the big kids' are talking about.

What the f*** is it with you guys and getting personally insulting on the forums? Do you guys not have anything better to do? Or is it just that you guys enjoy bashing anyone who doesn't fall immediately in line with whatever line of 'thought' you put forward?

@daycryn: I'd say a crusade would increase rp options and make a war more enjoyable. Whip the armies on both sides into a zealous fervor and watch them tear each other apart.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 21, 2012, 01:16:13 AM
Unfortunately, I do know what 'the big kids' are talking about.

What the f*** is it with you guys and getting personally insulting on the forums? Do you guys not have anything better to do? Or is it just that you guys enjoy bashing anyone who doesn't fall immediately in line with whatever line of 'thought' you put forward?

@daycryn: I'd say a crusade would increase rp options and make a war more enjoyable. Whip the armies on both sides into a zealous fervor and watch them tear each other apart.

I agree woelfy. I don't think some people here realize it's just a game and nothing to get mad and personally insult someone over.

I agree that it should be called as it is: a crusade. that's what we're calling it in Aurvandil
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 21, 2012, 01:24:04 AM
I agree woelfy. I don't think some people here realize it's just a game and nothing to get mad and personally insult someone over.

+1

Indeed, it's a game we play for fun. I dont play so the trolls can get up in arms over my differing opinion. All that comes from this kind of behaviour is a foul taste in the mouth of whoever is on the opposing side of said trolls. And unfortunately, human nature shows that no matter what it'll colour future interactions.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 21, 2012, 01:30:55 AM
I agree that it should be called as it is: a crusade. that's what we're calling it in Aurvandil

Except that it's not. They are coming to defend non-astroists from Aurvandilian aggression.

This is just about the 'moot having friends and influence, and Aurvandil having none.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 21, 2012, 01:51:20 AM
Except that it's not. They are coming to defend non-astroists from Aurvandilian aggression.

This is just about the 'moot having friends and influence, and Aurvandil having none.

with friends like those who needs enemies? Us Aurvandilans have many friends. Drage and Duke Vahanian are pretty chummy and his steel sword is his best friend. all we need is each other :P. I'm surprised you haven't learned that already considering how much your friends the moot have done for you, but arguing with you is like trying to speak string theory with a monkey. no matter how many times you go over it he won't get it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 21, 2012, 01:55:48 AM
with friends like those who needs enemies? Us Aurvandilans have many friends. Drage and Duke Vahanian are pretty chummy and his steel sword is his best friend. all we need is each other :P. I'm surprised you haven't learned that already considering how much your friends the moot have done for you, but arguing with you is like trying to speak string theory with a monkey. no matter how many times you go over it he won't get it.

If it weren't for our friends, D'Hara would have been dead long ago.

We are quite happy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 21, 2012, 02:03:03 AM
If SA declared a crusade, which they didn't, it would continue until either the enemy of the church gets completely annihilated or the church would.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 21, 2012, 03:32:15 AM
If SA declared a crusade, which they didn't, it would continue until either the enemy of the church gets completely annihilated or the church would.

Or untill SA decide the marching the length of the continent... Every attack is just not worth the effort...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 21, 2012, 03:34:14 AM
Or untill SA decide the marching the length of the continent... Every attack is just not worth the effort...

Would be a first for them. Besides, they have nothing better to do.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 21, 2012, 03:39:24 AM
They certainly have the food for provisions. Damn Morek and those productive rurals.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 21, 2012, 03:47:26 AM
Or untill SA decide the marching the length of the continent... Every attack is just not worth the effort...

Nor worth the effort? I'm sure there are plenty of Aurvandilian coastal region greedy morekian knights could go offload onto and pillage a bit before returning home. Perhaps with a few battles here and there. Gold and opportunities for honour, prestige, and to prove oneself. Why wouldn't they continue attacking?

In any cases, the current wars are the result of long-dating tensions finally breaking out into full-out conflicts. Things are evolving quickly, and I must say I find it all pretty exciting.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on October 21, 2012, 06:05:18 AM
Except that it's not. They are coming to defend non-astroists from Aurvandilian aggression.

This is just about the 'moot having friends and influence, and Aurvandil having none.

Or perhaps SA just wants to ruckus Aurvandil and keep them from expanding.  I wouldn't chalk it up to influence.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kellaine on October 21, 2012, 06:22:24 AM
I expect to see battles on par with the original war islands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on October 21, 2012, 06:53:56 AM
What the f*** is it with you guys and getting personally insulting on the forums? Do you guys not have anything better to do? Or is it just that you guys enjoy bashing anyone who doesn't fall immediately in line with whatever line of 'thought' you put forward?

Most ironic statement of the century?

Most ironic statement of the century.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 21, 2012, 01:42:20 PM
I expect to see battles on par with the original war islands.

I doubt there will be many battles. I can't even imagine how much gold the SA nobles are paying to get to Aurvandil and then how long it'll take for them to get home again.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kellaine on October 21, 2012, 03:21:41 PM
I doubt there will be many battles. I can't even imagine how much gold the SA nobles are paying to get to Aurvandil and then how long it'll take for them to get home again.

Well with the new sea routes it only takes 4 days travel for morek to get there. so just over a week for a refit if everyone moves when they are supposed to. so not too bad and the kcost is minimal (about the same as coming from astrum on the old sea routes)

I would imagine that astrum could get there in 2 1/2 days so they would have less than a week refit time (faster than the old sea routes)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 21, 2012, 03:59:53 PM
Or perhaps SA just wants to ruckus Aurvandil and keep them from expanding.  I wouldn't chalk it up to influence.

SA didn't just move on its own. Had the 'moot not sought help, it wouldn't have gotten any.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 21, 2012, 04:25:41 PM
Well with the new sea routes it only takes 4 days travel for morek to get there. so just over a week for a refit if everyone moves when they are supposed to. so not too bad and the kcost is minimal (about the same as coming from astrum on the old sea routes)

I would imagine that astrum could get there in 2 1/2 days so they would have less than a week refit time (faster than the old sea routes)

How are they getting back?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 21, 2012, 04:33:09 PM
How are they getting back?

Why would coming back be any more difficult? It's not like Terran doesn't have any harbors for them to use.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kellaine on October 21, 2012, 04:33:41 PM
How are they getting back?

The same way they got there I assume.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 21, 2012, 06:24:58 PM
Why would coming back be any more difficult? It's not like Terran doesn't have any harbors for them to use.

Terran is a pretty long walk and they're paying for more travel on the way back... This will be positively bankrupting war for them
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 21, 2012, 06:28:40 PM
Bankrupting? You must be joking...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on October 21, 2012, 06:37:45 PM
That's like saying Darka isn't rich...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 21, 2012, 06:37:55 PM
Terran is a pretty long walk and they're paying for more travel on the way back... This will be positively bankrupting war for them

Terran's not a long walk from Aurvandil.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on October 21, 2012, 06:39:36 PM
Money isn't the problem, my character is glad he can spend it on something finally. Problem is the nasty mercenary setting bug.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 21, 2012, 07:33:07 PM
If this war is going to "bankrupt" the SA realms seems to be all of you all should thanking the Véinsørmoot for getting them involved, right?  ;)


However, I highly doubt it will bankrupt them. It will surely cost them some money, but it isn't like they are fighting a normal border war where you would have to pay for the rebuilding of regions, deal with enemy looting, etc.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 21, 2012, 07:37:37 PM
If this war is going to "bankrupt" the SA realms seems to be all of you all should thanking the Véinsørmoot for getting them involved, right?  ;)


However, I highly doubt it will bankrupt them. It will surely cost them some money, but it isn't like they are fighting a normal border war where you would have to pay for the rebuilding of regions, deal with enemy looting, etc.

Also, they've been stockpiling gold for how many weeks now?...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 21, 2012, 07:56:06 PM
So let's divide each of the sides into strengths and weaknesses.

Aurvandil:
Better single realm army
From what I hear, better general
on defense
only uses gold for military
Doesn't have far to refit
winning streak

The Theocracies+Terran
Gold lots of gold
Bigger total army
can invade from pretty much anywhere
more total nobles
terran can harass paisly and paisland while the other fight down south


what did i miss?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 21, 2012, 08:36:17 PM
So let's divide each of the sides into strengths and weaknesses.

Aurvandil:
Better single realm army
From what I hear, better general
on defense
only uses gold for military
Doesn't have far to refit
winning streak

The Theocracies+Terran
Gold lots of gold
Bigger total army
can invade from pretty much anywhere
more total nobles
terran can harass paisly and paisland while the other fight down south


what did i miss?

Harass Paisly and Paisland? You mean, outright take it away from Aurvandil, right?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 21, 2012, 10:46:09 PM
So let's divide each of the sides into strengths and weaknesses.

Aurvandil:
Better single realm army
From what I hear, better general
on defense
only uses gold for military
Doesn't have far to refit
winning streak

The Theocracies+Terran
Gold lots of gold
Bigger total army
can invade from pretty much anywhere
more total nobles
terran can harass paisly and paisland while the other fight down south


what did i miss?


It's going to be a good war.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 21, 2012, 11:06:01 PM
Bankrupting? You must be joking...

A figure of speech...

Money isn't the problem, my character is glad he can spend it on something finally. Problem is the nasty mercenary setting bug.

What bug is this?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kellaine on October 21, 2012, 11:31:12 PM
What bug is this?


ya I would like to know if there is a mercenary bug. I am set to mercenary now and morale is still dropping fast
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 22, 2012, 05:36:54 AM
http://bugs.battlemaster.org/view.php?id=7490 (http://bugs.battlemaster.org/view.php?id=7490)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 22, 2012, 06:44:30 AM
So let's divide each of the sides into strengths and weaknesses.

Aurvandil:
Better single realm army
From what I hear, better general
on defense
only uses gold for military
Doesn't have far to refit
winning streak

The Theocracies+Terran
Gold lots of gold
Bigger total army
can invade from pretty much anywhere
more total nobles
terran can harass paisly and paisland while the other fight down south


what did i miss?

C'mon, let's be honest what this war's really about:

Religious Internationalists vs. Non-Religious Unilateralists

Clash of ideologies. So much more interesting. It's not SA v. Aurvandil. A big chunk of the fighting is being done by Triunists. If/when D'hara gets involved again, VE will be involved.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 22, 2012, 12:47:35 PM
C'mon, let's be honest what this war's really about:

Religious Internationalists vs. Non-Religious Unilateralists

Clash of ideologies. So much more interesting. It's not SA v. Aurvandil. A big chunk of the fighting is being done by Triunists. If/when D'hara gets involved again, VE will be involved.

They've already destroyed temples and persecuted Elementalists. VE does not see Aurvandil favourably, but we have a tradition of remaining neutral in political affairs.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on October 22, 2012, 01:14:42 PM
They've already destroyed temples and persecuted Elementalists. VE does not see Aurvandil favourably, but we have a tradition of remaining neutral in political affairs.

How can you be neutral if your beeing attacked?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 22, 2012, 01:16:06 PM
How can you be neutral if your beeing attacked?

Some elementalists are still there, I believe. The persecutions have been moderate, so to stand back we give the northerners more time to bash their skulls in instead of provoking them to intensify the anti-religion campaign.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 22, 2012, 01:31:27 PM
I'm sorry, what persecution exactly?

You mean the temples in the duchies of Madina and Paisly that Mendicant specifically ordered to be left untouched and remain as such save for one temple? Or the priests we allowed into the realm and gave legal immunity to? Aurvandil hasn't persecuted VE, however VE made a point of spitting in our face when they stole land and incited a Dukes rebellion in order to further their religious aims. Don't try to act like they've been persecuted, when at most Margrave Lex refused to let them build a temple in Madina after  Margrave Lucius went against Mendicant's order to tear down the temple, which was Lex's right to refuse them as it was his city, to which they responded by stealing an entire duchy and giving to the Grand Duchy and then trying to incite a war against Aurvandil, and failing that, incited one against the Falkirkian Freestate who held the right and claim to the lands they stole.

VE hasn't been persecuted, they just haven't got their own way as much as they'd like. But really, Aurvandil has been overly courteous to a religion we didn't need to be with and had no reason to be.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 22, 2012, 02:39:29 PM
You're doing so well in winning more friends. Go you!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 22, 2012, 02:48:50 PM
You're doing so well in winning more friends. Go you!

Mendicant makes friends with people he actually likes, not just whomever is in front of him at the time.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 22, 2012, 02:56:06 PM
they responded by stealing an entire duchy and giving to the Grand Duchy and then trying to incite a war against Aurvandil, and failing that, incited one against the Falkirkian Freestate who held the right and claim to the lands they stole.

False. The Duke owns the lands of the duchy, and the duke switched allegiance. That is treason, not theft. The Falkirkian Freestate did not exist, therefore it could not have rights to those lands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 22, 2012, 03:07:30 PM
You're doing so well in winning more friends. Go you!

And you the pillar of trustworthiness.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 22, 2012, 07:39:30 PM
False. The Duke owns the lands of the duchy, and the duke switched allegiance. That is treason, not theft. The Falkirkian Freestate did not exist, therefore it could not have rights to those lands.

Thanks, but I know how things are run in Aurvandil.

 The Commonwealth owns the land, and grants authority to the High Sovereign to delegate land as he pleases, the dukes may "own the land" but they lack the authority to remove the land from the Commonwealth, as the land is sworn to the Commonwealth first and foremost. Only the High Sovereign has the direct legal powers to say what is or isn't apart of the Commonwealth.

The Falkirkian Freestate didn't exist, but it still held the rights because the High Sovereign gave Falkirk a mandate granting them absolute authority over the territory and the permission to secede from the Commonwealth, thus they hold the right to the territory.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 22, 2012, 09:20:31 PM
Thanks, but I know how things are run in Aurvandil.

 The Commonwealth owns the land, and grants authority to the High Sovereign to delegate land as he pleases, the dukes may "own the land" but they lack the authority to remove the land from the Commonwealth, as the land is sworn to the Commonwealth first and foremost. Only the High Sovereign has the direct legal powers to say what is or isn't apart of the Commonwealth.

The Falkirkian Freestate didn't exist, but it still held the rights because the High Sovereign gave Falkirk a mandate granting them absolute authority over the territory and the permission to secede from the Commonwealth, thus they hold the right to the territory.

Game engine trumps roleplay.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 22, 2012, 11:13:12 PM
I'm sorry, what persecution exactly?

You mean the temples in the duchies of Madina and Paisly that Mendicant specifically ordered to be left untouched and remain as such save for one temple? Or the priests we allowed into the realm and gave legal immunity to? Aurvandil hasn't persecuted VE, however VE made a point of spitting in our face when they stole land and incited a Dukes rebellion in order to further their religious aims. Don't try to act like they've been persecuted, when at most Margrave Lex refused to let them build a temple in Madina after  Margrave Lucius went against Mendicant's order to tear down the temple, which was Lex's right to refuse them as it was his city, to which they responded by stealing an entire duchy and giving to the Grand Duchy and then trying to incite a war against Aurvandil, and failing that, incited one against the Falkirkian Freestate who held the right and claim to the lands they stole.

VE hasn't been persecuted, they just haven't got their own way as much as they'd like. But really, Aurvandil has been overly courteous to a religion we didn't need to be with and had no reason to be.

Temples were destroyed, threats were made. As I said, it could still be worse. However, it'd be a total and blatant lie to claim that no damage whatsoever was done against the church. It's not because Aurvandil could do worse that it hasn't done anything wrong at all.

You admit it yourself. "Save for one temple". That's already one temple too much. The Church hasn't counter-attacked because it doesn't want an all-out conflict, but that's a long way from feeling like it has been properly treated by your atheist government.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 22, 2012, 11:29:44 PM
Game engine trumps roleplay.

Killjoy trumps people trying to have fun in a way he disagrees with, evidently.

Temples were destroyed, threats were made. As I said, it could still be worse. However, it'd be a total and blatant lie to claim that no damage whatsoever was done against the church. It's not because Aurvandil could do worse that it hasn't done anything wrong at all.

You admit it yourself. "Save for one temple". That's already one temple too much. The Church hasn't counter-attacked because it doesn't want an all-out conflict, but that's a long way from feeling like it has been properly treated by your atheist government.

No threats were ever given as far as I am aware, and if they were they certainly were not made by anyone with the support of Aurvandil in doing so. The temple that was destroyed was done by a rogue lord who was soon removed from power.

The Elementalists already stole a duchy, discussed waging a religious war on Aurvandil (I saw the letters where they speculated on launching a first strike on Aurvandil) and tried to enact religious oppression in Aurvandil by trying to force their religion on lords and regions that did not want it. You are right, it could have been worse, the Elementalists could have actually been persecuted like you say they were.

Also, Aurvandil's government isn't atheist by any measure.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on October 22, 2012, 11:55:14 PM
Also, Aurvandil's government isn't atheist by any measure.
They believe in the glory of Aurvandil and you are their god-king, or something like that-right?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 23, 2012, 12:50:41 AM
Game engine trumps roleplay.

Game engine does not specify ownership, just leadership.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 23, 2012, 01:08:02 AM
Game engine does not specify ownership, just leadership.

Nope. Since they don't have any temples, they are just pagans.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 23, 2012, 01:09:03 AM
They believe in the glory of Aurvandil and you are their god-king, or something like that-right?

It's only the northerners who have the cult of the God-king, and they're more than welcome to keep it in the north.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on October 23, 2012, 01:34:16 AM
Harass Paisly and Paisland? You mean, outright take it away from Aurvandil, right?

Says the man who lost it in one turn of fighting to Aurvandil.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 23, 2012, 01:37:29 AM
Says the man who lost it in one turn of fighting to Aurvandil.

I love you more than ever right now my freind.

Nope. Since they don't have any temples, they are just pagans.

or maybe i just have a secret shrine to mendicant on my estate. you'll never know unless you travel to fatmilak
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 23, 2012, 01:42:04 AM
or maybe i just have a secret shrine to mendicant on my estate. you'll never know unless you travel to fatmilak

Nope. Unless you are willing to create a religion, you will stay a pagan. Can't argue.

Everyone believes in something in BM.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 23, 2012, 01:46:45 AM
Says the man who lost it in one turn of fighting to Aurvandil.

I was away when we lost Paisly. And I'm pretty sure that starvation took it from us, not Aurvandil. And that Aurvandil's TO of it when rogue took longer than one turn.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 23, 2012, 02:03:16 AM
I was away when we lost Paisly. And I'm pretty sure that starvation took it from us, not Aurvandil. And that Aurvandil's TO of it when rogue took longer than one turn.

Correct on all points.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 23, 2012, 02:19:39 AM
It's only the northerners who have the cult of the God-king, and they're more than welcome to keep it in the north.
Where in the north is it that you think someone has a god-king?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 23, 2012, 02:25:54 AM
Where in the north is it that you think someone has a god-king?

He's saying that northeners are the only ones that believe that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 23, 2012, 03:09:27 AM
He's saying that northeners are the only ones that believe that.

"Why do the locals need religion when they have their Sovereign to provide for them" is basically what Mendicant has stated. If that's not an atheist statement, then it's a statement that proclaims him to be a god-king. Vice versa.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 23, 2012, 03:22:04 AM
I basically look at it that he is a 'God-king'. I find the whole Atheism thing in BM annoying.  I don't care what your philosophy is in life. In BM find a religion already.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 23, 2012, 03:26:05 AM
"Why do the locals need religion when they have their Sovereign to provide for them" is basically what Mendicant has stated. If that's not an atheist statement, then it's a statement that proclaims him to be a god-king. Vice versa.

That isn't what it means, it implies that faith in god isn't important because the sovereign is better than god and more worthy. He isn't a god King he transcends god as something better.

Nope. Unless you are willing to create a religion, you will stay a pagan. Can't argue.

Everyone believes in something in BM.

And it is the players perogative to roleplay that paganism to be whatever form of paganism they want. Be that godking worship or child eating blood cult. You have no mandate to dictate the features of there character other than that they have to be:

A. Human
B. Either pagan or religious

But other than those vague terms your opinion is irrelevant
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 23, 2012, 03:27:36 AM
I basically look at it that he is a 'God-king'. I find the whole Atheism thing in BM annoying.  I don't care what your philosophy is in life. In BM find a religion already.

I find it ignorant that it is thought that nobody was athiest or agnostic in medieval europe. It certainly wasn't publicised or admitted but that is all.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 23, 2012, 03:35:20 AM
I find it ignorant that it is thought that nobody was athiest or agnostic in medieval europe. It certainly wasn't publicised or admitted but that is all.

So, declare your character to be a secret atheist. That's fine.

But no one cares what you believe in your secret heart of hearts. They care what temple you go to and what Gods you pray to when everyone can see and hear you.

If you declare in the street that there are no Gods, no afterlife, nothing but gross matter...well, the Gods have been known to make examples of people like that. Spectacularly.

And if They don't, and you manage to evade the angry peasantry, any noble with a lick of sense would blackball you immediately and you'd lose all your influence and reputation.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 23, 2012, 04:04:20 AM
So, declare your character to be a secret atheist. That's fine.

But no one cares what you believe in your secret heart of hearts. They care what temple you go to and what Gods you pray to when everyone can see and hear you.

If you declare in the street that there are no Gods, no afterlife, nothing but gross matter...well, the Gods have been known to make examples of people like that. Spectacularly.

And if They don't, and you manage to evade the angry peasantry, any noble with a lick of sense would blackball you immediately and you'd lose all your influence and reputation.

I agree, being publicly Athiest would be bad. However, if a realm roleplayed educating peasants to be athiest or starting secret nobility movements or starting an Athiest religion option is against the rules. Why? These things could work given time and should be roleplayed slowly over IG years maybe even decades but it could be done.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 23, 2012, 04:12:42 AM
I agree, being publicly Athiest would be bad. However, if a realm roleplayed educating peasants to be athiest or starting secret nobility movements or starting an Athiest religion option is against the rules. Why? These things could work given time and should be roleplayed slowly over IG years maybe even decades but it could be done.

No.

The moment you start doing it, you get burned at the stake.

No atheism. Nowhere. Period. Don't like it? Too bad. Play someone else's game.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 23, 2012, 04:15:35 AM
There is no such thing as an atheist religion.

Dwilight especially has stricter rules for religions than other islands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 23, 2012, 04:33:02 AM
There is no such thing as an atheist religion.

Dwilight especially has stricter rules for religions than other islands.

It is a religious option in the same way any other faith is

No.

The moment you start doing it, you get burned at the stake.

No atheism. Nowhere. Period. Don't like it? Too bad. Play someone else's game.

I don't like it, I don't like its historical ignorance nor do I like the fact that realms are disadvantaged by not having a state religion, I don't like how your historical education is so black and white its almost a bad joke. It would be hard, dangerous, would make a pariah out of any noble or realm that took it upon them but its certainly not imposible for athiesm or expecially agnosticism to exist in your settings. Nor will I stop reminding you of that fact when the subject arrises.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 23, 2012, 04:43:27 AM
It is a religious option in the same way any other faith is

No, it bloody well isn't.

Do you build atheist temples to get together and pray to nothing in?

Do you preach the Word of No God to the people?

Do you build shrines to Richard Dawkins?

Quote
I don't like it, I don't like its historical ignorance nor do I like the fact that realms are disadvantaged by not having a state religion, I don't like how your historical education is so black and white its almost a bad joke. It would be hard, dangerous, would make a pariah out of any noble or realm that took it upon them but its certainly not imposible for athiesm or expecially agnosticism to exist in your settings. Nor will I stop reminding you of that fact when the subject arrises.

You don't have to like it. And it's not my rule, or rooted in my education. It's Tom's rule, and in case you're unaware, he's actually one of the most hard-line atheists I've ever met. He just knows how dumb it would have been to profess any such belief in 1324.

The game doesn't—can't—simulate a peasant mob taking you and burning you at the stake for admitting to this insanity in BattleMaster. If it could, we could probably dispense with the ironclad "no atheism" rule. But as it stands, the game just doesn't have the AI to do that.

So you'll have to be content with a "no atheism" rule, rather than simply having your character die for trying to be publicly atheist, as would be more realistic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 23, 2012, 04:49:01 AM
He he he ... that would be an interesting mechanic. If enough people report your character's message as professing atheistic beliefs, you log in to find your character has been burned at the stake.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 23, 2012, 04:55:54 AM
He he he ... that would be an interesting mechanic. If enough people report your character's message as professing atheistic beliefs, you log in to find your character has been burned at the stake.

Uhm, yes please? Sign me up for that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 23, 2012, 05:02:56 AM
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/FAQ/Tom%27s_Position_on_Atheism (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/FAQ/Tom%27s_Position_on_Atheism)

Strange how this seems to be the only game where people think they can completely ignore the rules. Do people playing Monopoly think they can simply ignore what's written on the corner to the right of "Go"?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 23, 2012, 05:13:17 AM
@ Egamma Rules in games are guidelines on how it's meant to be played to be fun. I play monopoly very different than the rules say because that's how i find it fun. Look at jenna marbles video on game rules if you don't get what i mean. Games are supposed to be fun and rules are only set as a challange to make them more fun. Therefore if a rule isn't fun than it should be done away with. Now I'm not arguing for atheism in any way shape or form I'm just saying the rules aren't always perfect
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 23, 2012, 05:18:09 AM
Rules are the guidelines by which the game must be played. Especially in the context of an MMORPG. You can't have a subset of players decide that they don't like the rules, and ingore them, while the rest of the game continues to play by them.

If you don't like a rule, then you take it to the forums and file a feature request to try and get it changed. But until Tom changes his mind, then you *must* continue to follow the rule IG. But you don't get to just ignore it because you think it shouldn't apply to you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on October 23, 2012, 05:49:32 AM
Here's a question thats been of some interest, both ICly and OOC: are the Bloodstars "gods?"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Devercia on October 23, 2012, 06:59:40 AM
Here's a question thats been of some interest, both ICly and OOC: are the Bloodstars "gods?"

With a loose definition, one can say yes. Many animist religions refer to any object of worship as a god. Its why some forms of Christianity and Islam have issues with idols and icons, as they become rivals gods when they are worshiped.

The stars have personalities, but have yet to be expressed as sentient entities. The idea of a god typically starts off as something rather alien, inhuman, and unknowable, and progresses to a persona that one can even identify in the burn patterns of toasted bread.  I'd actually like to see the evolution of that. The reason it hasn't yet is probably due to the absence of sacred art, which is usually the first to depict things like Fortune, Nemesis and Victory as living breathing knowable beings, who then become bona fide gods, instead of the abstractions they start out as being.

But this is a topic for another thread.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on October 23, 2012, 08:42:44 AM
Here's a question thats been of some interest, both ICly and OOC: are the Bloodstars "gods?"

The Bloodstars are certainly all-powerful beings worthy of worship, and which work in Mysterious Ways. They fit a description of a God in that sense.

The reasons you will sometimes see people argue that Bloodstars are not gods is that there is no place for the supernatural in Sanguis Astroism. Either something exists, or it doesn't. The Stars are part of the natural world. They're the real thing.

It does not actually offend the Bloodstars if you worship a different god. It's probably part of their plan. You will be unhappy though, because your god won't help you to achieve balance. It's probably not real anyway, but there is always the possibility that other gods do exist as beings, ghosts or something. They still feel the Bloodstars though.

Note that SA has been known to integrate other religions (notably The Seven) without trouble.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Velax on October 23, 2012, 08:44:21 AM
I play monopoly very different than the rules say because that's how i find it fun.

Yes, but do you play by your own Monopoly rules at the same time that the other players are playing by the traditional rules? Everyone here plays by the same rules, or should be, at least. If you want to play by some other rule set, you need the agreement of the other players, or in this case, the game developer.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 23, 2012, 01:23:03 PM
That isn't what it means, it implies that faith in god isn't important because the sovereign is better than god and more worthy. He isn't a god King he transcends god as something better.

The king is "better than a god" = god-king, in my book.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 23, 2012, 02:42:53 PM
I find it ignorant that it is thought that nobody was athiest or agnostic in medieval europe. It certainly wasn't publicised or admitted but that is all.

There are no atheists or non-worshipers in BM. Fact. Everyone absolutely everyone is religious. Aurvsndiil chooses to do folk religion and pagan faith like rubbing sticks together and chanting, where other kingdoms are civilized and actually have organized faith. No one cares if you dont believe or agree with god in RL, in BM find a religion already.

Although I support Aurvandiil on so many levels it seems that their adherence to non-religion is a bad precedent and the realm should be relentlessly attacked until it plays by the rules and gets a faith, just so other future realms dont think that it is alright to play like that.

Its pretty easy , found a religion. Its actually a lot more fun than atheism is.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on October 23, 2012, 04:06:35 PM
i am actually suprised that Aurvendil hasn't made its own religion yet.
They already worship Mendicant, why not make a real organized religion out of it?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 23, 2012, 06:02:00 PM
I know and it makes total sense and they would still get to be closet atheists.  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 23, 2012, 06:20:59 PM
Quote
Duchy Changes Allegiance   (1 hour ago)
message to Everyone on Dwilight
Sun Hall has changed its allegiance with all its regions to the realm of Luria Nova. The duchy used to belong to Solaria.

Ha! D'Hara wins.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Velax on October 23, 2012, 08:28:24 PM
How do you figure? Now you're at war with one large realm instead of two medium sized ones.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 23, 2012, 09:39:39 PM
How do you figure? Now you're at war with one large realm instead of two medium sized ones.

1. Propaganda.
2. The realm that initially declared war on D'Hara now consists of two regions, while our realm has retaken 3 regions since the war started.
3. There will be a lot of loyalty/region control/tax issues in the larger realm for some time to come. I estimate it will take them at least two weeks, and probably a month, to get it all settled.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 23, 2012, 10:58:21 PM
He he he ... that would be an interesting mechanic. If enough people report your character's message as professing atheistic beliefs, you log in to find your character has been burned at the stake.

That would be wonderful.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 23, 2012, 11:42:14 PM
Solaria is K.O.

D'Hara is just too epic for the Lurias. Bastards never should have backstabbed us.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 24, 2012, 12:19:56 AM
"Why do the locals need religion when they have their Sovereign to provide for them" is basically what Mendicant has stated. If that's not an atheist statement, then it's a statement that proclaims him to be a god-king. Vice versa.

It's neither statement.

It isn't Mendicant saying he is a God, and it isn't Mendicant saying he's a God, it's him saying God's are irrelevant to Aurvandil even if they are God's, much like how Haktoo is irrelevant even though she has what can only be described as Godly powers. There can be God's, Mendicant doesn't care, they are no different from any other natural phenomena we can observe in the world of Battlemaster, of which there is an exceptional amount. From Daimon's, to monsters to magic and the blight, exposure to such things have only bred contempt for them as far as Mendicant cares. And as a powerful Monarch, he feels he doesn't have to care and why should he? He has every reason to believe God's are irrelevant by their own choice or by their impotence in the affairs of Aurvandil, and he has every reason to believe he stands high enough to be immune to such trivial concerns.

To the people arguing over Atheism yes there were atheists in the Medieval era, and there were quite famous and open atheists, including one particular English King who made it clear the religion was his bitch and not the other way around, though I forget the exact king right now. There were plenty of somewhat popular philosophies in Medieval Europe that were quite clearly "Atheistic" by some measure or other, it's a popular misconception that you'd be immediately burnt at the stake for being a non believer, considering the wealth of historical evidence of non believing knights and kings. But, Mendicant and by extension Aurvandil aren't atheist, we have different paths of religion, and for a long time Aurvandil held a lot of religious temples in all of our lands until the religion itself collapsed thanks to the civil war.  Though, Aurvandil don't view Mendicant as a God-King, which be insulting to Mendicant at best.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 24, 2012, 01:22:38 AM
It doesnt matter historically. BM isnt a simulator. Tom has specifically stated that there are no atheists in BM. I know there is no way to enforce it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 24, 2012, 04:34:09 AM
Well the Morekians just declared war on us and all i can say is: Do ya feel lucky punk? well do ya?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 24, 2012, 09:42:30 AM
And Libero, and Iashalur.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 24, 2012, 02:51:39 PM
Historical discussions about Atheism have been moved here:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3392.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3392.0.html)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lorgan on October 24, 2012, 04:28:33 PM
Aurvandil's diplomacy map must look funny...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on October 24, 2012, 05:39:17 PM
And Libero, and Iashalur.

And Kabrinskia, and Astrum and Corsanctum and... Fissoa?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on October 24, 2012, 06:47:10 PM
Well the Morekians just declared war on us and all i can say is: Do ya feel lucky punk? well do ya?

For accuracy you might want to revise the statement to something like: "Do you, you, you, you and you feel lucky, punks? Well do you, you, you, you, you?"

You could be like, "I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. Also, it doesn't really matter because there are more enemies than I have bullets."
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 24, 2012, 11:21:07 PM
Asylon backing up with squatters in Paisly... If they are the guys Aurvandil is referring to as being able to defend Paisly from its rightful owners, you guys are truly delusional. As if Asylon is going to stop anyone from doing anything.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 25, 2012, 12:53:46 AM
Asylon backing up with squatters in Paisly... If they are the guys Aurvandil is referring to as being able to defend Paisly from its rightful owners, you guys are truly delusional. As if Asylon is going to stop anyone from doing anything.

Rightful owners are the ones with power. D'Hara lost paisly D'hara didn't recover paisly for a month or more. Its not yours chenier stop acting like youre entitled to it just because you lost your duchy and have your panties in a wad
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on October 25, 2012, 01:04:56 AM
Rightful owners are the ones with power. D'Hara lost paisly D'hara didn't recover paisly for a month or more. Its not yours chenier stop acting like youre entitled to it just because you lost your duchy and have your panties in a wad

There's nothing stopping the former owner of a territory from continuing to press its claim. In fact, that's how a lot of wars happen.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: D'Espana on October 25, 2012, 01:28:25 AM
Ah, I love the smell of a heated up argument in the night. You know, it helps me to gain sleep  :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 25, 2012, 01:32:02 AM
Asylon backing up with squatters in Paisly... If they are the guys Aurvandil is referring to as being able to defend Paisly from its rightful owners, you guys are truly delusional. As if Asylon is going to stop anyone from doing anything.

Well, not all of us are happy to be compliant with using so many allies it almost makes the war pointless. The Veinsormoot tried to take on Aurvandil alone, got badly defeated, refused unconditional peace and now they've brought all of S.A. lets see if the Church will fair any better. If Aurvandil loses then God forbid the south will become like the north and Dwilight will become unplayable for anyone who doesn't want to sit in relative silence counting piles of gold waiting for the next dog pile war, which is all S.A. seems to ever do.

But the answer to your statement is no, Asylon is just one facet, and I shall give you a tit for tat exchange of "As if D'Hara could ever stop anyone anyway". Really, you don't have the right to mock Asylon for their military.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 25, 2012, 03:05:15 AM
We must fight against mediocrity!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on October 25, 2012, 03:32:41 AM
sit in relative silence counting piles of gold waiting for the next dog pile war, which is all S.A. seems to ever do.

From my perspective, Aurvandil never even existed until they came to SA's notice. Now is that because Aurvandil does nothing but sit in silence?

Or maybe it's because I'm not a member of that realm.

Nah, it can't be. It's because you're all silent. You just sit around in silence and probably eat kittens. Why do you hate kittens so much?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 25, 2012, 04:55:15 AM
Why in the world would Asylon come out supporting the Paisly colony? It doesn't even make sense.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 25, 2012, 04:58:39 AM
Old habits die hard?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 25, 2012, 05:11:52 AM
Here's a better question: what reason does SA have to declare war on Prvencia di florenza? it is even nuetral with Aurvandil. you could just go around
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 25, 2012, 05:24:12 AM
With friends like the Astroist coalition... Who needs Frenemies?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 25, 2012, 05:26:27 AM
Here's a better question: what reason does SA have to declare war on Prvencia di florenza? it is even nuetral with Aurvandil. you could just go around

Seriously?

Umm.. several reasons:

1) The Véinsørmoot regards the Duchy of Paisly as rightfully D'Haran and therefore Little Italy there is an enemy (the fact that it was put there by Aurvandil only compounds the issue).

2) It is clearly nothing more than an attempt to slow down the Coalition's campaign whose secession came only to try to cause pause or disruption to the campaign.

3) It is an insulting offensive colonization of Véinsørmoot territory by Aurvandil; trying to implant their culture directly into the Maroccidens Proper.

4) It is made up of a bunch of Aurvandil nobility.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 25, 2012, 05:27:35 AM
Why in the world would Asylon come out supporting the Paisly colony? It doesn't even make sense.

We fight for the underdog and we do not sell out just to win. You have enough armies, why add more to the pile? Asylon dances to a different drummer and as long as it exists we will strive to be individuals. We are not slaves to faith, we are free men and nobles, we are brighter than the stars.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 25, 2012, 05:28:47 AM
Seriously?

Umm.. several reasons:

1) The Véinsørmoot regards the Duchy of Paisly as rightfully D'Haran and therefore Little Italy there is an enemy (the fact that it was put there by Aurvandil only compounds the issue).

2) It is clearly nothing more than an attempt to slow down the Coalition's campaign whose secession came only to try to cause pause or disruption to the campaign.

3) It is an insulting offensive colonization of Véinsørmoot territory by Aurvandil; trying to implant their culture directly into the Maroccidens Proper.

4) It is made up of a bunch of Aurvandil nobility.

5. Because it's really boring to have a gigantic allied army sit in Chesney and do nothing. So why not kill a realm or two?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 25, 2012, 05:29:01 AM
We fight for the underdog and we do not sell out just to win. You have enough armies, why add more to the pile? Asylon dances to a different drummer and as long as it exists we will strive to be individuals. We are not slaves to faith, we are free men and nobles, we are brighter than the stars.

This makes no sense.

Oh, that actually explains it. Thank you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on October 25, 2012, 05:29:20 AM
Here's a better question: what reason does SA have to declare war on Prvencia di florenza? it is even nuetral with Aurvandil. you could just go around

Heh. That's pretty funny  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 25, 2012, 05:38:34 AM
This makes no sense.

Oh, that actually explains it. Thank you.

It doesnt have to make complete sense, its a game. We sometimes make decisions for fun. If we wanted to play the game to win we wouldnt be playing BM. Some of us play to create stories. Thats how we win.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on October 25, 2012, 06:26:40 AM
Why not just wipe out Asylon before fighting Aurvandil? That way you don't have to worry about Asylon siding with Aurvandil ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 25, 2012, 07:25:17 AM
They already have, afaik. Asylon is obliged by the alliance with Fiorenza to invade after the coalition broke through Paisland.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on October 25, 2012, 07:38:02 AM
Well, not all of us are happy to be compliant with using so many allies it almost makes the war pointless. The Veinsormoot tried to take on Aurvandil alone, got badly defeated, refused unconditional peace and now they've brought all of S.A. lets see if the Church will fair any better. If Aurvandil loses then God forbid the south will become like the north and Dwilight will become unplayable for anyone who doesn't want to sit in relative silence counting piles of gold waiting for the next dog pile war, which is all S.A. seems to ever do.

But the answer to your statement is no, Asylon is just one facet, and I shall give you a tit for tat exchange of "As if D'Hara could ever stop anyone anyway". Really, you don't have the right to mock Asylon for their military.
two things, first the Asylon comment I believe is more of with all of SA and moot against the new colony, Asylon is kinda irrelevant. Also though SA can take your regions with the new system it isn't a way to have your realm in two different areas due to the distance to capital penalties causing the region to revolt almost instantly after the army leaves the region so realms aren't overstepping their bounds.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on October 25, 2012, 10:21:02 AM
They already have, afaik. Asylon is obliged by the alliance with Fiorenza to invade after the coalition broke through Paisland.

Oh, are we allied with Fiorenza? As far as I know we have only signed a peace treaty with them. Making us as much allies with them as with any other realm on Dwilight.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on October 25, 2012, 10:22:56 AM
If Aurvandil loses then God forbid the south will become like the north and Dwilight will become unplayable for anyone who doesn't want to sit in relative silence counting piles of gold waiting for the next dog pile war, which is all S.A. seems to ever do.

I sure hope not man, i sure hope not.
I personally think they can't pull this off.
Besides, what do ye think Abbots been doing all this time?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 25, 2012, 01:07:41 PM
Here's a better question: what reason does SA have to declare war on Prvencia di florenza? it is even nuetral with Aurvandil. you could just go around

How can people SERIOUSLY believe this crap? Aurvandil created a 3-man colony from stolen D'Haran lands, for the SPECIFIC reason of creating a buffer between Aurvandil and others (Mendicant said so many times), and Aurvandilians wonder why people (including D'Harans) don't like this new realm!?

There is no neutrality. It has been made painfully clear since the first day that the idea was mentioned that the colony wouldn't be tolerated.

How about we go form a colony in Candiels, and claim it's a neutral new polity with no instructions on whose side to be on? I'm sure Aurvandil would be delighted by this, right?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 25, 2012, 01:27:07 PM
Oh, are we allied with Fiorenza? As far as I know we have only signed a peace treaty with them. Making us as much allies with them as with any other realm on Dwilight.

"Letter from Florence Endellion (3 hours, 55 minutes ago) Message sent to the Rulers of Dwilight (16 recipients) The notion of Provincia di Fiorenza being used as an extension of Aurvandil was already considered,such is why I have drawn up agreements with third parties such as Asylon where they have already sworn to defend our neutrality by force of arms,which includes invading the Provincia should we break the neutrality.

If such treaties are insufficient to dissuade you from war,then it is clear you do not care either way,whether or not Provincia di Fiorenza is truly neutral.

Florence Endellion Gonfaloniere of Provincia di Fiorenza Duchess of Florentine City-State of Paisly Margravine of Paisly"

?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 25, 2012, 01:28:41 PM
Asylon backstabbing us doesn't make the bunch any more neutral.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on October 25, 2012, 01:28:51 PM
Oh, are we allied with Fiorenza? As far as I know we have only signed a peace treaty with them. Making us as much allies with them as with any other realm on Dwilight.

I'm not sure if you actually believe this statement, but if not, you should know that people are right to feel insulted when game mechanics are employed as a screen for actual intentions. This would hardly be the first instance (this month, even), but the reaction is always the same: incredulity that people expect everyone else to pack up their stuff and go home because a piece of parchment says "peace", particularly if there's evidence to the contrary. It is analogous to saying "who are going going to believe? Me, or your eyes?"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 25, 2012, 02:10:25 PM
How can people SERIOUSLY believe this crap? Aurvandil created a 3-man colony from stolen D'Haran lands, for the SPECIFIC reason of creating a buffer between Aurvandil and others (Mendicant said so many times), and Aurvandilians wonder why people (including D'Harans) don't like this new realm!?

There is no neutrality. It has been made painfully clear since the first day that the idea was mentioned that the colony wouldn't be tolerated.

How about we go form a colony in Candiels, and claim it's a neutral new polity with no instructions on whose side to be on? I'm sure Aurvandil would be delighted by this, right?

Pretty sure Mendicant offered to give D'hara the lands but D'hara were busy wearing there asses on there heads to negotiate properly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 25, 2012, 02:21:04 PM
Asylon backstabbing us doesn't make the bunch any more neutral.

The pot calling the kettle black. We are defending the new realm to insure diversity in Dwilight and also to cultivate strong allies in place of the fickle and flaccid alliances that have gone on before.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lorgan on October 25, 2012, 02:32:49 PM
The pot calling the kettle black.

Isn't that what this thread is all about?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 25, 2012, 02:34:32 PM
I'm not sure if you actually believe this statement, but if not, you should know that people are right to feel insulted when game mechanics are employed as a screen for actual intentions. This would hardly be the first instance (this month, even), but the reaction is always the same: incredulity that people expect everyone else to pack up their stuff and go home because a piece of parchment says "peace", particularly if there's evidence to the contrary. It is analogous to saying "who are going going to believe? Me, or your eyes?"

Please, Do suggest the evidence  to the contrary or are accusations without evidence your norm?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on October 25, 2012, 02:35:03 PM
The real reason that the northern realms attacked the new colony is because they can't march any further south.  Morale losses due to distance from home are BIG.  They marched all that way for weeks and then sat around for days waiting for Terran to figure out what was going on before hey finally figured out which way the sword points.  By that time they had been in the field for a really long time and they couldn't march much further south.  They had to attack something.  Anything.  So the new colony got clobbered.


Aurvandil stands a good chance.  The SA realms can't attack them since he is too far south.  My alternative plan for a war against Aurvandil was shot down and now it looks like it will be the only plausible means of waging an effective war against Aurvandil.  All Aurvandil has to do is get good reports of where the northern armies are.  Once they leave, whack Terran really hard, pillage and burn everything they can and then refit when the northern armies march south again.  In the mean time while the Northern armies are in the area they just continue to annex Barcan regions.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on October 25, 2012, 02:52:33 PM
Please, Do suggest the evidence  to the contrary or are accusations without evidence your norm?

It isn't an accusation. It's a potential explanation for why "trust us, we mean you no harm!" isn't going over well. Dial down the persecution complex. There is evidence to support this explanation IC. Malus has seen some of it, and he isn't even tangentially involved. Do people not actually communicate IC? It feels like these types of threads are becoming subsititutes for the necessary IC communication that should accompany IC decisions.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 25, 2012, 03:02:03 PM
The forums are and so mych of how people treat eachother or react is because of the forum. I know I did it once and how the information flows on this forum makes me think almost everyone is living a double life. I was lucky I got nipped in the bud the first time I did it, many many of you have yet to check your IC/IG persona.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on October 25, 2012, 03:31:32 PM
The real reason that the northern realms attacked the new colony is because they can't march any further south.  Morale losses due to distance from home are BIG.  They marched all that way for weeks and then sat around for days waiting for Terran to figure out what was going on before hey finally figured out which way the sword points.  By that time they had been in the field for a really long time and they couldn't march much further south.  They had to attack something.  Anything.  So the new colony got clobbered.


Aurvandil stands a good chance.  The SA realms can't attack them since he is too far south.  My alternative plan for a war against Aurvandil was shot down and now it looks like it will be the only plausible means of waging an effective war against Aurvandil.  All Aurvandil has to do is get good reports of where the northern armies are.  Once they leave, whack Terran really hard, pillage and burn everything they can and then refit when the northern armies march south again.  In the mean time while the Northern armies are in the area they just continue to annex Barcan regions.


You should join us ;D there is plenty of Terran "cake" for everyone! Don't make us eat all of it by ourselves :P



-These discussions are so heated even real life political stuff doesn't match this lol
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 25, 2012, 04:18:43 PM
How can people SERIOUSLY believe this crap? Aurvandil created a 3-man colony from stolen D'Haran lands, for the SPECIFIC reason of creating a buffer between Aurvandil and others (Mendicant said so many times), and Aurvandilians wonder why people (including D'Harans) don't like this new realm!?

There is no neutrality. It has been made painfully clear since the first day that the idea was mentioned that the colony wouldn't be tolerated.

How about we go form a colony in Candiels, and claim it's a neutral new polity with no instructions on whose side to be on? I'm sure Aurvandil would be delighted by this, right?

I love how out of touch you are with the situation that you think that is a fair comparison.

Firstly, Paisly isn't your capital, secondly Paisly isn't your only city, it's one of about four that you have including one stronghold that can also support a capital, thirdly as far as I am aware you weren't founded in Paisly, and fifth, Aurvandil conquered Paisly when you were too incompetent to keep the city and too proud to accept Aurvandilan food to feed it. The only real comparison you can make is to say if Evanburg was a city and we lost it due to starvation and then you make a neutral realm in it. You cannot say Candiels and act like it is a fair comparison as it is our only city, our capital, the place where we were founded and it wouldn't be a region we lose due to incompetent administration but instead through military conquest. There is a world of difference.

And of course its going to be a buffer, a two way buffer for both sides. That was the point, to make it so neither side borders the other or can directly attack each other without first making an enemy of the third party realm.

I don't expect you to like it, or even care if do, the realm was created to serve a function as far as Mendicant and Aurvandil care, a function it'll end up serving one way or another.

And yes, to DamnTaffer, I did offer to let them keep Paisly several times, once to Gornak in exchange for peace, and once to Rynn for peace, in both instances with Aurvandil having dropped all demands save for peace, and then I would again offer to hand them Paisly if D'Hara would become neutral diplomatically, and they refused, as Rynn was obviously just being slimy when he thought he could get something out of Mendicant by promising him the world, but then refusing to actually do anything to show he meant it, which became obvious weeks ago when he tried to break from the Moot and make D'Hara a  Monarchy of his own accord, failed and then blamed it all on Mendicant pretending it had been demands from Aurvandil for peace. Aurvandil couldn't trust such an obvious politician to actually be neutral whilst they are federated to one side of the war.  D'Hara can be as pissed as they like but they brought it on themselves for repeatedly refusing unconditional peace's, to actually compromise with Aurvandil and refusing Aurvandilan food when the city starved.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 25, 2012, 04:29:16 PM
Terran and D'Hara being slimy? No! Impossible!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 25, 2012, 04:35:12 PM
Terran and D'Hara being slimy? No! Impossible!

It's probably the reason why Mendicant likes Glaumring and Aslyon, despite them both entirely disagreeing on everything from war, to religion, to the way Asylon runs it's kingdom. Glaumring may be eccentric and Asylon entirely opposite to Aurvandil on a lot of things, but at least you have a proper diplomatic negotiation with them without pretence or slimy political deals, that is when you can get a straight and consistent answer from Glaumring however, the amount of times he changes his mind over topics when talking to Mendicant is staggering. He seemed to do it every other letter during his war with Kabrinskia.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 25, 2012, 04:57:01 PM
Hey at least I change my mind consistantly... What usually happens is I throw out ideas all the time and then when a better idea comes I throw out that one too. I wont stick too something that I know wont work once seeing it from an angle, I think and talk on my feet. Things change fast in war and many of the rulers in Dwilight think way too slow and do not communicate or throw ideas out often. Im an idea man.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 25, 2012, 05:08:17 PM
Ya know why I see Fioreniza, Falkirk, and Aurvandil as the same?

The have the same freaking color on the statistics page. It's annoying as hell. Gotta kill at least two of them just to make the stats page readable again.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 25, 2012, 05:55:55 PM
Firstly, Paisly isn't your capital, secondly Paisly isn't your only city, it's one of about four that you have including one stronghold that can also support a capital, thirdly as far as I am aware you weren't founded in Paisly, and fifth, Aurvandil conquered Paisly when you were too incompetent to keep the city and too proud to accept Aurvandilan food to feed it. The only real comparison you can make is to say if Evanburg was a city and we lost it due to starvation and then you make a neutral realm in it. You cannot say Candiels and act like it is a fair comparison as it is our only city, our capital, the place where we were founded and it wouldn't be a region we lose due to incompetent administration but instead through military conquest. There is a world of difference.

You are obviously completely ignorant of what Paisly means to the Véinsørmoot. It is the jewel of the Maroccidens, it is the birthplace of Maroccidental culture, civilization, and society. Melodia was born there and started the long tradition of Maroccidental Republics and societies. From there Nobles spread to Terran and the Dragon Isles and eventually nobles passed through Paisly to come to Terran to create Barca.

Furthermore, there is a history of fighting to protect the city from Southern invaders and conquerors. We fought long, drawn out wars against Madina to keep the city when they refused to release their claim on it. Aurvandil taking the city is just ripping open all of the old wounds of Southern Imperialists always trying to impose and conquer in the Maroccidens and the small realms vying to stay alive and keep their land. You are Madina reborn.

It isn't different at all. Sure, it's not technically the "Capital" of any realm. But as much as Candiels is the birthplace of Aurvandil and their culture and their history, Paisly is the same thing, except with an even deeper and longer history and significance, to the entire Maroccidens. There is reason why Terran is fighting so hard for regions that aren't even theirs to begin with.

Literally, conquering Paisly and putting some insulting puppet realm there (and here I thought relations couldn't get any worse) is the worst thing you could have ever done for relations with the Maroccidental realms short of just taking Terran, Barca, and D'Hara off the map.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 25, 2012, 06:01:33 PM
The real reason that the northern realms attacked the new colony is because they can't march any further south.  Morale losses due to distance from home are BIG.  They marched all that way for weeks and then sat around for days waiting for Terran to figure out what was going on before hey finally figured out which way the sword points.  By that time they had been in the field for a really long time and they couldn't march much further south.  They had to attack something.  Anything.  So the new colony got clobbered.

This is not even true. You do realize that we were waiting for everyone to arrive, right? You do realize that not ever single Astroist realm shipped their troops off on the same day, to arrive on the same day? No, it was a constant trickle of arrivals all the way up until the day we marched. We knew exactly what our goal was from day 1, it's pretty straightforward. It had nothing to do with trying "to figure out what was going on."

Sheesh.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on October 25, 2012, 06:02:00 PM
Ya know why I see Fioreniza, Falkirk, and Aurvandil as the same?

The have the same freaking color on the statistics page. It's annoying as hell. Gotta kill at least two of them just to make the stats page readable again.

Curious: is that intentional, or the result of some inherited property from secessions?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 25, 2012, 06:05:36 PM
Curious: is that intentional, or the result of some inherited property from secessions?

I cannot speak to intention, but it is, in fact, inherited upon secession.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on October 25, 2012, 06:10:15 PM
It's probably the reason why Mendicant likes Glaumring and Aslyon, despite them both entirely disagreeing on everything from war, to religion, to the way Asylon runs it's kingdom. Glaumring may be eccentric and Asylon entirely opposite to Aurvandil on a lot of things, but at least you have a proper diplomatic negotiation with them without pretence or slimy political deals, that is when you can get a straight and consistent answer from Glaumring however, the amount of times he changes his mind over topics when talking to Mendicant is staggering. He seemed to do it every other letter during his war with Kabrinskia.

**Edit** - A bit to eager on the post button.

Well, That is Glaumring for you, BUT Asylon has another King now, people seem to forget that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on October 25, 2012, 06:12:57 PM
"Letter from Florence Endellion (3 hours, 55 minutes ago) Message sent to the Rulers of Dwilight (16 recipients) The notion of Provincia di Fiorenza being used as an extension of Aurvandil was already considered,such is why I have drawn up agreements with third parties such as Asylon where they have already sworn to defend our neutrality by force of arms,which includes invading the Provincia should we break the neutrality.

If such treaties are insufficient to dissuade you from war,then it is clear you do not care either way,whether or not Provincia di Fiorenza is truly neutral.

Florence Endellion Gonfaloniere of Provincia di Fiorenza Duchess of Florentine City-State of Paisly Margravine of Paisly"

?

Interesting. I know someone has been talking about helping the new colony, but I have not heard it confirmed by our King.
But in the same discussions we have had people suggesting that we should  repair our relation with Terran, others suggest woeing Kabrinskia or even the SA realms north of us. But now i feel that I am sharing to much with this forum. I will return to observing, but as i said before, I know of no alliance with this new Colony.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 25, 2012, 06:21:08 PM
**Edit** - A bit to eager on the post button.

Well, That is Glaumring for you, BUT Asylon has another King now, people seem to forget that.

Well Glaumring seems to be the political leviathan of Asylon, even if Randemicos is the king, at least that is the impression I get. Though I sometimes make the mistake of just keeping up contact with Glaumring, but then Glaumring does seem happy to just have a conversation.


Curious: is that intentional, or the result of some inherited property from secessions?

The default colour is white, and I doubt the Provincia thought to change it immediately, as for Falkirk, well... God knows what they're about, I expected them to pick red after Averoth (?).

Hey at least I change my mind consistantly... What usually happens is I throw out ideas all the time and then when a better idea comes I throw out that one too. I wont stick too something that I know wont work once seeing it from an angle, I think and talk on my feet. Things change fast in war and many of the rulers in Dwilight think way too slow and do not communicate or throw ideas out often. Im an idea man.

In one letter you would decry that you were definitely going to lose, a few minutes later in a second letter you would say the opposite, that kind of thing in every exchange, you had Mendicant sitting there going "wtf" at how bipolar Glaumring seemed to be.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 25, 2012, 06:22:34 PM
You are obviously completely ignorant of what Paisly means to the Véinsørmoot. It is the jewel of the Maroccidens, it is the birthplace of Maroccidental culture, civilization, and society. Melodia was born there and started the long tradition of Maroccidental Republics and societies. From there Nobles spread to Terran and the Dragon Isles and eventually nobles passed through Paisly to come to Terran to create Barca.

Furthermore, there is a history of fighting to protect the city from Southern invaders and conquerors. We fought long, drawn out wars against Madina to keep the city when they refused to release their claim on it. Aurvandil taking the city is just ripping open all of the old wounds of Southern Imperialists always trying to impose and conquer in the Maroccidens and the small realms vying to stay alive and keep their land. You are Madina reborn.

It isn't different at all. Sure, it's not technically the "Capital" of any realm. But as much as Candiels is the birthplace of Aurvandil and their culture and their history, Paisly is the same thing, except with an even deeper and longer history and significance, to the entire Maroccidens. There is reason why Terran is fighting so hard for regions that aren't even theirs to begin with.

Literally, conquering Paisly and putting some insulting puppet realm there (and here I thought relations couldn't get any worse) is the worst thing you could have ever done for relations with the Maroccidental realms short of just taking Terran, Barca, and D'Hara off the map.

Yes I sort of mentioned it to Machiavel and Rynn that I didn't know why they were so ... bothered about Paisly and neither of them went into as much detail as you did. As Mendicant said, well he'll always be ignorant if his opponents won't offer him their perspective when asked.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 25, 2012, 06:31:02 PM
In one letter you would decry that you were definitely going to lose, a few minutes later in a second letter you would say the opposite, that kind of thing in every exchange, you had Mendicant sitting there going "wtf" at how bipolar Glaumring seemed to be.

Welcome to the group.

Now trying dealing with that while fighting a politically high tensioned war alongside him. Phew.

"We are losing. We are winning. We are making peace with Kabrinskia. We signed a Cease Fire. WE ARE INVADING KABRINSKIA WOOOO. !@#$ we are losing. WE ARE TAKING ON THE WORLD!!! Why is everyone backing off of us diplomatically?"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on October 25, 2012, 06:35:22 PM
I think the important thing to take away from this thread is that, on Dwilight, everybody lies to everyone. I'm serious. It's not an exaggeration. I compare it to Game of Thrones a lot, but it's really worse than that. It's not even that Dwilight looks AWFULLY SIMILAR TO WESTEROS put in front of a mirror:

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11627393/Westeros.png)(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11627393/WestContinent-Details.jpg)

It's because everybody lies to everyone, and they will slit your throat for even marginal gains in power. It's a truism of Dwilight, and not specific to Luria, although it is perhaps in its freebase form down there.

This is part of why there's such a disconnect between what's being observed IC and what's being offered up OOC.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on October 25, 2012, 06:37:14 PM
I think the important thing to take away from this thread is that, on Dwilight, everybody lies to everyone.

A gross generalization, and untrue.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 25, 2012, 06:39:33 PM
I think the important thing to take away from this thread is that, on Dwilight, everybody lies to everyone. This is part of why there's such a disconnect between what's being observed IC and what's being offered up OOC.

Or at least that Dwilight is the best continent ever and is so much fun because it is constantly dynamic, there aren't the years and years old power structures/blocs/groups, and there is always something interesting or fun going on somewhere on the island.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on October 25, 2012, 06:42:16 PM
A gross generalization, and untrue.

Liar.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 25, 2012, 06:42:51 PM
I change my mind according to what is going on on the ground, during that war I was talking to Kabrinskia,D'Hara, Terran , Aurvandiil, Morek, Corsanctum, Barca , my own nobles, random nobles , Astrum when they deigned a reply, the Zuma and myself. Sometimes things and ideas change so fast, one minute you see 26k of Terrans going to fight 13k Kabrinskians and you formulate 20 possible outcomes, then you see that army destroyed and you are back to square one. I cannot considering holding to a strategy diplomatically if I know it will fail. During the war our strategy stayed consistant, wage a defensive war of attrition, lose lands up north that were undefendable, send out raiding parties to slowly destroy the Kabrinskian economy , fight close to Asylon. What did people think? That we would march on Astrum , sit in Golden Farrow? We werent waging that type of war, we intended to hunker down and fight Astrum, the largest economy/army in dwilight, plus Kabrinskia in close proximity and fight them into a quagmire. The strategy worked but at what cost? Asylon is poor, over 50000 people died of starvation, our army was shattered, our lands damaged, our cities ransacked. Yet we survived. I proved all the naysayers wrong, that Asylon would fold, that Itau would fall that Astrum and ilk would destroy us, all proved wrong, we learned to fight our first war in BM ever since Dwilights founding I havent fought more than monsters and we felt it was time to make trouble and have fun. I proved that Asylonian nobles are strong and we work together against all odds, so yeah you can make fun of me, call me crazy, but it takes a lot of balls to do what I did and survive.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on October 25, 2012, 06:52:03 PM
Snip

Trust no one.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on October 25, 2012, 07:02:20 PM
Liar.

Thanks, Dr. House.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on October 25, 2012, 07:04:36 PM
Trust no one.

You can trust me! Please ignore the dagger I'm holding and please ignore the fact I am painting a bullseye on your back, its just how I say hello.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 25, 2012, 07:08:22 PM
Welcome to the group.

Now trying dealing with that while fighting a politically high tensioned war alongside him. Phew.

"We are losing. We are winning. We are making peace with Kabrinskia. We signed a Cease Fire. WE ARE INVADING KABRINSKIA WOOOO. !@#$ we are losing. WE ARE TAKING ON THE WORLD!!! Why is everyone backing off of us diplomatically?"

You literally just described Glaumring in a sentence perfectly.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 25, 2012, 07:10:32 PM
I change my mind according to what is going on on the ground, during that war I was talking to Kabrinskia,D'Hara, Terran , Aurvandiil, Morek, Corsanctum, Barca , my own nobles, random nobles , Astrum when they deigned a reply, the Zuma and myself. Sometimes things and ideas change so fast, one minute you see 26k of Terrans going to fight 13k Kabrinskians and you formulate 20 possible outcomes, then you see that army destroyed and you are back to square one. I cannot considering holding to a strategy diplomatically if I know it will fail. During the war our strategy stayed consistant, wage a defensive war of attrition, lose lands up north that were undefendable, send out raiding parties to slowly destroy the Kabrinskian economy , fight close to Asylon. What did people think? That we would march on Astrum , sit in Golden Farrow? We werent waging that type of war, we intended to hunker down and fight Astrum, the largest economy/army in dwilight, plus Kabrinskia in close proximity and fight them into a quagmire. The strategy worked but at what cost? Asylon is poor, over 50000 people died of starvation, our army was shattered, our lands damaged, our cities ransacked. Yet we survived. I proved all the naysayers wrong, that Asylon would fold, that Itau would fall that Astrum and ilk would destroy us, all proved wrong, we learned to fight our first war in BM ever since Dwilights founding I havent fought more than monsters and we felt it was time to make trouble and have fun. I proved that Asylonian nobles are strong and we work together against all odds, so yeah you can make fun of me, call me crazy, but it takes a lot of balls to do what I did and survive.

Well I don't think anyone was making fun of you, or at least I wasn't. Simply marvelling at Glaumring being Glaumring which is always an interesting thing to observe from an outsiders perspective.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on October 25, 2012, 07:37:26 PM
It's not even that Dwilight looks AWFULLY SIMILAR TO WESTEROS put in front of a mirror:

Was this intentional? You just blew my mind.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on October 25, 2012, 07:43:41 PM
I think the important thing to take away from this thread is that, on Dwilight, everybody lies to everyone.

Interestingly, Alanna has very, very rarely told untruths about anything of any real importance.

She is, however, really good at lying by omission, lying with the truth, and saying one thing that sounds kind of like another.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on October 25, 2012, 07:48:44 PM
Rabisu's never lied, by omission or otherwise. Total naif.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on October 25, 2012, 07:51:01 PM
Rabisu's never lied, by omission or otherwise. Total naif.

This is true, as far as I know. Rabisu deserves a pass. Everyone else on Dwilight though, used car salespeople to the core. Malus included. He's never explicitly lied, but I'm also very careful in what I choose to have him comment on to maintain that claim.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on October 25, 2012, 07:54:57 PM
Was this intentional? You just blew my mind.

Not sure. Darfix or Gias Kay Lee (that's right—Darfix and GiasK, like the cities) developed the map. It's an awesome coincidence if not intentional.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 25, 2012, 07:56:32 PM
Yes I sort of mentioned it to Machiavel and Rynn that I didn't know why they were so ... bothered about Paisly and neither of them went into as much detail as you did. As Mendicant said, well he'll always be ignorant if his opponents won't offer him their perspective when asked.

The Treaty of the Maroccidens, which I think you have read given you've referenced it before, establishes Chesney, Paisly, and Rettleville as specially vital interests to all three realms. For practical purposes, any occupation of Paisly, Rettleville, or Chesney is an occupation of Barca, D'Hara, and Terran. Aurvandil happens to have hit two of those and made threats at the third– you don't win over the Moot by attacking the only three specific regions our founding document identifies as foundational to the existence of our culture.

Regarding realm stats page colors: I do hope people realize that was a joke. Though it is always unsettling to see the Big Blob of White on the dynamic map.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on October 25, 2012, 07:56:51 PM
Highly doubt it. The map was pieced together by copy pasting slices of the other maps together. How hard would it be to make Westeros from that...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 25, 2012, 08:12:17 PM
I honestly just want Asylon to resume war with Kabrinskia. Pls pls pls.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on October 25, 2012, 08:27:00 PM
I think the important thing to take away from this thread is that, on Dwilight, everybody lies to everyone.

Pfffh. Truth is overrated.

If it were so important, there would be a Star of Truth, wouldn't there? Case closed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on October 25, 2012, 10:56:29 PM
Regarding realm stats page colors: I do hope people realize that was a joke. Though it is always unsettling to see the Big Blob of White on the dynamic map.

I was asking strictly from a mechanics angle. When Solaria seceded from Pian en Luries, it was the first, or one of the first, realms to do it after the new political model and estate system went live. It inherited a lot of crap from PeL and some of it was unintentional.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on October 25, 2012, 11:59:05 PM
This is not even true. You do realize that we were waiting for everyone to arrive, right? You do realize that not ever single Astroist realm shipped their troops off on the same day, to arrive on the same day? No, it was a constant trickle of arrivals all the way up until the day we marched. We knew exactly what our goal was from day 1, it's pretty straightforward. It had nothing to do with trying "to figure out what was going on."

Sheesh.


That isn't how the chatter from the SAers is sounding.  I've heard from a few nobles in different realms complaining about Terrans military and how it is unorganized and how they were waiting for Terran.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 26, 2012, 12:11:14 AM
Yes I sort of mentioned it to Machiavel and Rynn that I didn't know why they were so ... bothered about Paisly and neither of them went into as much detail as you did. As Mendicant said, well he'll always be ignorant if his opponents won't offer him their perspective when asked.

Paisly also had additional meaning to D'Hara, because it's our foothold on the western continent for our traders (we told you as much). That it's the duchy of D'Hara's longest-serving noble and one of its most influenceful figures also plays a role: Machiavel wants his duchy back.

But really, if there's one thing that D'Hara has been ALWAYS struggling for, it's defending her sovereignty. Since day one, we've been threatened on all sides by factions who covet what we have. And we have always made it clear to everyone, including Mendicant, that what we value most is our Sovereignty. And here you go putting a new realm in our lands.

And you withdrew your offer to give back Paisly to Rynn. You decided that you'd rather create a 3-noble realm instead, despite how clearly it was stated we wouldn't stand for it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 12:48:52 AM
I was born in Raviel during the reign of Melodia. I served in Shadovar until the D'Haran refugees waged a coup and split the kingdom and then later destroyed it.

If anyone has a claim over Paisly it is I!  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 26, 2012, 12:53:54 AM
I was born in Raviel during the reign of Melodia. I served in Shadovar until the D'Haran refugees waged a coup and split the kingdom and then later destroyed it.

If anyone has a claim over Paisly it is I!  8)

You were kicked out. You were never lord of Paisly.

Sorry, you're out.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 26, 2012, 01:28:36 AM
Or at least that Dwilight is the best continent ever and is so much fun because it is constantly dynamic, there aren't the years and years old power structures/blocs/groups, and there is always something interesting or fun going on somewhere on the island.

For the first time ever Perth, and probably only one of few, I agree with you. This is why I love this game is dwilight! It's amazing!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 01:56:56 AM
You were kicked out. You were never lord of Paisly.

Sorry, you're out.

Kicked out? I was banned for standing up for the elders of Shadovar and speaking out against the D'Haran Dragon lords for their disrespect to the gentry of Shadovar after the revolution. My ban was later lifted once D'Hara realized that they were wrong. If D'Hara hadn't of done that I would never have made it to where I am now, history would have been very different!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 26, 2012, 02:02:05 AM
Kicked out? I was banned for standing up for the elders of Shadovar and speaking out against the D'Haran Dragon lords for their disrespect to the gentry of Shadovar after the revolution. My ban was later lifted once D'Hara realized that they were wrong. If D'Hara hadn't of done that I would never have made it to where I am now, history would have been very different!

I disagreed with D'Hara's initial secession, but the "elders of Shadovar" were just failing utterly at leading a realm properly. Then the judge went and banned a duchess for no good reason, forcing her to secede...

Also, I don't see any entry of D'Hara in your family page... something's missing?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 02:22:40 AM
I was banned while it was still Shadovar I think, I cant remember was so long ago. Really hazy memory.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 26, 2012, 03:34:06 AM
I was banned while it was still Shadovar I think, I cant remember was so long ago. Really hazy memory.

Perhaps, but in that case, there's no ban to lift. Shadovar didn't last long past D'Hara.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 03:43:04 AM
D'Hara lifted the ban ages ago... And apologized ...lolz  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 26, 2012, 03:46:29 AM
D'Hara lifted the ban ages ago... And apologized ...lolz  8)

Because Kabrinskia was being threatening and Asylon was in a position (and had the will) to intervene.

D'Haran politics are pragmatic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 26, 2012, 04:16:34 AM
I was born in Raviel during the reign of Melodia. I served in Shadovar until the D'Haran refugees waged a coup and split the kingdom and then later destroyed it.

If anyone has a claim over Paisly it is I!  8)

Because living somewhere gives you claim. right.


That isn't how the chatter from the SAers is sounding.  I've heard from a few nobles in different realms complaining about Terrans military and how it is unorganized and how they were waiting for Terran.

What in the world? That's frustrating then. I honestly don't know what they want. It isn't like Terran is supposed to command their armies or something. Hell, the one time I did send an order to their nobles I got barked at for ordering their nobles!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 26, 2012, 04:20:50 AM
Because living somewhere gives you claim. right.

you should probably quote chenier in this too.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 26, 2012, 04:21:50 AM
you should probably quote chenier in this too.

Why? He isn't saying that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 04:22:41 AM
Because living somewhere gives you claim. right.


What in the world? That's frustrating then. I honestly don't know what they want. It isn't like Terran is supposed to command their armies or something. Hell, the one time I did send an order to their nobles I got barked at for ordering their nobles!

More of a claim than someone who has never lived there... Plus, all the records of my estate there and time as 'Viscount' etc were burned in the revolution.

Oh and the Ban lifted from D'Hara came years before the war with Kabrinskia. It was while I was in Terran living there.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on October 26, 2012, 04:26:01 AM
Why? He isn't saying that.
lived in paisly. lost paisly. claims paisly?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on October 26, 2012, 04:39:30 AM
lived in paisly. lost paisly. claims paisly?
big difference- glaumring just lived there, Chenier was duke/lord of Paisly and thus claims it, as it was his previously.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 26, 2012, 04:52:31 AM
lived in paisly. lost paisly. claims paisly?

Owned Paisly. Biiiiig difference.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 26, 2012, 05:06:50 AM
So.... what kind of claim does pwning Paisly get you? ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on October 26, 2012, 05:24:33 AM
So.... what kind of claim does pwning Paisly get you? ;)

Hold up, I get the first share of loot for coming down here  :D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 05:40:10 AM
big difference- glaumring just lived there, Chenier was duke/lord of Paisly and thus claims it, as it was his previously.

Well I claim Port Raviel then. He can have "Paisly the city of Rainbows."
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on October 26, 2012, 06:25:19 AM
Now, we are allied with the new Colony =)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 26, 2012, 06:36:42 AM
So.... what kind of claim does pwning Paisly get you? ;)

A fairly decent one!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 26, 2012, 11:06:13 AM
Now, we are allied with the new Colony =)

A 3-man realm, with one of them just captured by overwhelming defending forces.

Yea, that'll go far. You should TOTALLY declare war on Morek to honor your alliance. And Astrum, and Ishladur.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 02:22:39 PM
Yeah we should just join the winners at the expense of our values and souls
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 26, 2012, 03:23:56 PM
Yeah we should just join the winners at the expense of our values and souls

So Chenier was right? And you will be declaring war on Astrum?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 04:01:42 PM
Judging from what I have heard about regions protesting the war there wont even be a war. 
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 26, 2012, 06:35:10 PM
Yeah we should just join the winners at the expense of our values and souls

Or you could just not get involved, since it doesn't concern Asylon in the least. *mind blown*
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 26, 2012, 06:40:48 PM
Or you could just not get involved, since it doesn't concern Asylon in the least. *mind blown*

Asylon are allied with the Paisley colony so it does involve Asylon since Paisley is currently under attack.

Perhaps you could know what your talking about before opening your mouth? *Mind Blown*

Though if Asylon gets involved there realm will collapse from war protests within a week anyway...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 06:48:25 PM
We will join the dev team and convert to Astroism! Problem solved!  ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 26, 2012, 06:53:52 PM
Asylon are allied with the Paisley colony so it does involve Asylon since Paisley is currently under attack.

Perhaps you could know what your talking about before opening your mouth? *Mind Blown*

The alliance means nothing. They did it simply as an excuse to get involved in something that doesn't concern them.

Besides, Little Italy will be gone in a number of days.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 07:07:59 PM
What are you talking about? You called on 50 allies to come attack a 3 noble kingdom. We wish to support new realms in the area. We dont need to help, barely able but we support the order of things in the west being shooken up a bit and some diversity in the region. You are merely trying to hold onto old glory wrapped in corrupt obsolesence.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on October 26, 2012, 07:12:48 PM
What are you talking about? You called on 50 allies to come attack a 3 noble kingdom. We wish to support new realms in the area. We dont need to help, barely able but we support the order of things in the west being shooken up a bit and some diversity in the region. You are merely trying to hold onto old glory wrapped in corrupt obsolesence.

Actually, most of the attack will be against Aurvandil, Paisly is just a landing spot.

(Well, I think; I'm not a member of SA or privy to any military channels).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on October 26, 2012, 07:18:23 PM
What are you talking about? You called on 50 allies to come attack a 3 noble kingdom. We wish to support new realms in the area. We dont need to help, barely able but we support the order of things in the west being shooken up a bit and some diversity in the region. You are merely trying to hold onto old glory wrapped in corrupt obsolesence.

Seriously? You realize our allies were already marching on AURVANDIL when this new realm just popped up in front of us specifically for the reason to cause us pause? We are attacking Aurvandil, if you seriously think that new realm is anything but an Aurvandil duchy you're crazy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 07:30:05 PM
Stop the presses! Glaumring is totally crazy!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 26, 2012, 07:33:00 PM
In other news: Provincia continues to get hammered into oblivion.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 26, 2012, 07:34:37 PM
In any case, Asylon has already pretty much implied its position by signing an alliance with Fiorenza. After the  war with Aurvandil, they'll get the fall out.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 07:44:12 PM
Yeah! Bring it on!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 26, 2012, 08:22:28 PM
Yeah! Bring it on!

Preferably don't Die before I can get a third noble... The ten year elite Aurvandil hating master race likes to discriminate against new players or i'd already be in Asylon
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 08:23:33 PM
Oh no! Someone is going to use my bad attitude on the forums to affect their ingame reaction!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 26, 2012, 08:25:47 PM
Oh no! Someone is going to use my bad attitude on the forums to affect their ingame reaction!

I've wanted to play there for a while...

Edit: Isn't that what happens in all of battlemaster ever involving Asylon?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 08:48:25 PM
Yes, in BM only be popular, dont try to rp a certain style of character. I have been disliked since I founded Thulsoma without permission from the astroists.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on October 26, 2012, 09:00:31 PM
What if the certain type of character you're roleplaying likes to be on the winning side, likes fame and a good reputation, and doesn't particularly enjoy being an oppressed or loud and angry minority?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 26, 2012, 09:06:12 PM
What if the certain type of character you're roleplaying likes to be on the winning side, likes fame and a good reputation, and doesn't particularly enjoy being an oppressed or loud and angry minority?

/me whispers "then don't join luria"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 09:08:16 PM
What if the certain type of character you're roleplaying likes to be on the winning side, likes fame and a good reputation, and doesn't particularly enjoy being an oppressed or loud and angry minority?

You mean Indirik?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 26, 2012, 09:18:54 PM
What if the certain type of character you're roleplaying likes to be on the winning side, likes fame and a good reputation, and doesn't particularly enjoy being an oppressed or loud and angry minority?

Then you probably shouldn't roleplay in a game where you can't win?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on October 26, 2012, 09:28:51 PM
Heh, it's like Glaumring hasn't done anything in-game to gain the ire of the majority. Never mind the flip-flopping stance of Asylon during the war against Kabrinskia.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 09:38:58 PM
Oh come on Feylonis... you are just jealous of me.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on October 26, 2012, 09:58:52 PM
Then you probably shouldn't roleplay in a game where you can't win?

Characters can win all the time.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 10:26:15 PM
Like Indirik?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 26, 2012, 10:33:55 PM
Like Indirik?

You've said that before. Still makes no sense.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 26, 2012, 10:36:22 PM
You've said that before. Still makes no sense.

He is implying Indirik has successfully won at battlemaster
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 26, 2012, 10:38:04 PM
You mean Indirik?
You're just jealous of my success.  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on October 26, 2012, 10:40:21 PM
He is implying Indirik has successfully won at battlemaster

Like I said: Makes no sense no matter how many times its said. Everyone is capable of 'winning' depending on what they want to do.

Indirik is just patient enough and full of enough wit to get the desired outcomes.

/me misses Queen Balkeese.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on October 26, 2012, 11:04:28 PM
You're just jealous of my success.  ;D

I think Indirik could be a fair measure of success. I am jealous of no one or thing. I enjoy being the foil, the bandit king, the wily fox. My measure of success is chaos!  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 27, 2012, 02:36:32 AM
That is certainly one possible way of running your characters. Brance, however, is a builder. He creates things and nurtures them to make them grow. He's not so much nationalistic as he is religious. He is devoted to spreading the faith of the Bloodstars across the entire island. I just wish I had more time to devote to actually doing it. :(
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 27, 2012, 11:43:21 AM
That is certainly one possible way of running your characters. Brance, however, is a builder. He creates things and nurtures them to make them grow. He's not so much nationalistic as he is religious. He is devoted to spreading the faith of the Bloodstars across the entire island. I just wish I had more time to devote to actually doing it. :(

I think the rest of us are glad you don't >.>
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 27, 2012, 01:47:39 PM
I choose to take that as a compliment. :)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on October 27, 2012, 02:53:03 PM
I always enjoyed Glaumring in SA, and while amused, I was kind of disappointed when he went off on the bloodmoon cult. He didn't like Allison and that is always okay in my book. :p
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 27, 2012, 03:07:09 PM
I totally forgot auto da fe were stopped by troops present... I was thinking it was only claim region that does that, for a moment.

Did it wreck the armies (doubtful), or did it wreck region stats?

Rather ironic, though, that the invading forces would capture me and send me to their enemy's dungeons...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 27, 2012, 04:54:54 PM
I totally forgot auto da fe were stopped by troops present... I was thinking it was only claim region that does that, for a moment.

Did it wreck the armies (doubtful), or did it wreck region stats?

Rather ironic, though, that the invading forces would capture me and send me to their enemy's dungeons...

Should make for interesting roleplay though...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 27, 2012, 05:11:11 PM
Should make for interesting roleplay though...

A bit akward... "FAITHFUL, RISE AGAINST THE USURPERS OF PAISLY, RID US OF FLORENCE!" Faithful go to torch her estates, invading forces go all "Noooo! Don't burn Florence's estates! Die crazy mob! Let's arrest that priest and hand him over to the authorities we are trying to destroy!"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on October 27, 2012, 07:24:25 PM
A bit akward... "FAITHFUL, RISE AGAINST THE USURPERS OF PAISLY, RID US OF FLORENCE!" Faithful go to torch her estates, invading forces go all "Noooo! Don't burn Florence's estates! Die crazy mob! Let's arrest that priest and hand him over to the authorities we are trying to destroy!"

Shoulda gotten a Mob raising licence...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: BardicNerd on October 27, 2012, 08:01:26 PM
That is certainly one possible way of running your characters. Brance, however, is a builder. He creates things and nurtures them to make them grow. He's not so much nationalistic as he is religious. He is devoted to spreading the faith of the Bloodstars across the entire island. I just wish I had more time to devote to actually doing it. :(
Really with I had time to devote to Elsebeth . . . well, maybe she will wake up from her coma someday.

Speaking of which, I should actually write her final RP and pause her.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on October 29, 2012, 05:34:18 PM
Please, somebody, anybody change the topic. You guys can continue this conversation in a BACKGROUND thread, I just want to hear about the war...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 29, 2012, 05:35:42 PM
How is that Florencia Provencia Whatever holding out? Who is running the TO?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 29, 2012, 05:45:54 PM
Thread split. Auto da fe stuff moved to a new topic in the general forums.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 30, 2012, 02:55:11 AM
How is that Florencia Provencia Whatever holding out? Who is running the TO?

Yea? I'm in prison, and it's bugged, preventing me from checking my messages or paying the ransom.

Someone gimme some info!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 30, 2012, 03:02:24 AM
All I know is that they have Paisly and Paisland. Paisly is under TO, but I don't know who is doing it. Astrum forces are there. There are occasional battles, and some skirmishes.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 30, 2012, 03:04:12 AM
All I know is that they have Paisly and Paisland. Paisly is under TO, but I don't know who is doing it. Astrum forces are there. There are occasional battles, and some skirmishes.

Morek's doing the TO. I saw 5% progress, then 8%, then 5% again I think, before I failed an auto da fe.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 30, 2012, 03:21:28 AM
Morek's failed. Corsanctum started, but I'm not sure they're putting much effort into it.

Last I saw Terran was well on the way to TOing Paisland. If Provincia gets an army we'll walk back in and stomp them again– but starvation will handle them eventually. Then Chenier can RTO it to his heart's content and them narsty soldiers won't arrest him.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 30, 2012, 12:05:16 PM
Morek's failed. Corsanctum started, but I'm not sure they're putting much effort into it.

Last I saw Terran was well on the way to TOing Paisland. If Provincia gets an army we'll walk back in and stomp them again– but starvation will handle them eventually. Then Chenier can RTO it to his heart's content and them narsty soldiers won't arrest him.

Hehe.

Only if control is at province or lower, though. Else Paisly'd have been mine loooong ago.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on October 30, 2012, 02:53:27 PM
How is Aurvandil doing lately? It has been some time since I heard of a mayor battle, and in the mean time their northern regions keep revolting one after the other.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on October 30, 2012, 03:19:05 PM
Well war could be considered over the second all regions including capital revolted, i doubt we can pull something of...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 30, 2012, 04:48:38 PM
Aurvandil didn't lose their capital. At least, I don't remember seeing any notification that they took it back yet.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Telrunya on October 30, 2012, 04:50:15 PM
Maybe he means the reports on peasants revolting and expressing their views or something like that, not the region actually denouncing their allegiance to Aurvandil, because that doesn't seem to have happened.

Anyway, I hope for Aurvandil all their regions are now at a 5% tax rate.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on October 30, 2012, 04:58:01 PM
Hrmm... I suppose you're right. Well, they have plenty of chances to recover from this, as long as they manage to keep the capital itself from going rogue. It's not like someone can take advantage of this by an invasion. Terran is probably the only one that would be in a position to do it, but I doubt they could do anything about it right now.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 30, 2012, 08:28:56 PM
Evil florentine squatters tortured Machiavel... Never even told me a word. :(
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on October 30, 2012, 10:47:44 PM
Hrmm... I suppose you're right. Well, they have plenty of chances to recover from this, as long as they manage to keep the capital itself from going rogue. It's not like someone can take advantage of this by an invasion. Terran is probably the only one that would be in a position to do it, but I doubt they could do anything about it right now.

D'hara could invade! Try and type that with a straight face. Even if Luria weren't invading, try and say it with a straight face.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 30, 2012, 11:43:09 PM
D'hara could invade! Try and type that with a straight face. Even if Luria weren't invading, try and say it with a straight face.

With 3 nobles and no gold, why not? It'd be just like reclaiming a rogue region.

Except that this one was fed and it loves us, as opposed to starving regions that hate us and that don't have lords until the eternal referendums end.

Yea, I know, we coulda handled those better...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on October 30, 2012, 11:53:53 PM
With 3 nobles and no gold, why not? It'd be just like reclaiming a rogue region.

Except that this one was fed and it loves us, as opposed to starving regions that hate us and that don't have lords until the eternal referendums end.

Yea, I know, we coulda handled those better...

Aurvandil, not the Provincia.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 31, 2012, 12:02:42 AM
Aurvandil, not the Provincia.

Oh.

Haha, best not do so.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on October 31, 2012, 03:50:27 AM
D'hara could invade! Try and type that with a straight face. Even if Luria weren't invading, try and say it with a straight face.
Personally I think with the judge being stricter by imposing fines for military disobedience we could see D'hara improving militarily. Invade Aurvandil single handedly, yeah that's pretty laughable but coordinating with Terran to invade, if the fines started getting done, maybe after some strict discipline got done. D'harans still haven't really gotten used to following orders immediately IMO, which sounds stupid but we have been in peace for so long getting to do whatever we want, whenever we want basically that following military orders do get done, just very slowly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on October 31, 2012, 05:15:40 AM
Personally I think with the judge being stricter by imposing fines for military disobedience we could see D'hara improving militarily. Invade Aurvandil single handedly, yeah that's pretty laughable but coordinating with Terran to invade, if the fines started getting done, maybe after some strict discipline got done. D'harans still haven't really gotten used to following orders immediately IMO, which sounds stupid but we have been in peace for so long getting to do whatever we want, whenever we want basically that following military orders do get done, just very slowly.

Reason 146 why Terran made a policy of marching off on military expeditions once a year or so.

Of course, it didn't help us that much: only the urgency of this present war has really gotten our armies moving.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on October 31, 2012, 12:05:40 PM
Reason 146 why Terran made a policy of marching off on military expeditions once a year or so.

Of course, it didn't help us that much: only the urgency of this present war has really gotten our armies moving.

Nobles leading troops are nobles not trading.

Reason number 1 why D'Hara has avoided war as much as it could.

Number 2 is: Realms at war usually don't want to trade with you.

Number 3: Realms at war usually don't let your traders pass through to reach other markets.

Oh yea, not to mention that there's no scouting over sea routes and that armies can come from anywhere.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Ehndras on November 14, 2012, 09:57:54 PM
So, back on topic, the Astromoot (I had to! BAHAHA!) just took Paisly.

Epic RP tiems to be had! Alura badly injured, her infantry unit decimated, delirious on the fortress battlements, pre-empting the history-making RP that is about to occur.

Fun, fun, fun! Poked at Florence to RP too, I want some widespread FUN to be had from this siege before we go back to the boring rough&tumble hit-and-runs.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 16, 2012, 03:21:49 AM
Where has Aurvandil been? Are they still  recovering from diplomacy issue? And whatever happened to Asylon protecting the neutrality of Provencia?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 16, 2012, 03:50:39 AM
We are just chilling currently. It's Brovandil up in here we are broing it up left right and center.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 16, 2012, 05:43:18 AM
We are just chilling currently. It's Brovandil up in here we are broing it up left right and center.
No drive to help out Provencia so they can preserve their neutrality?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 16, 2012, 06:42:37 AM
nuetrality would be coded out if we tried to save it :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 16, 2012, 07:07:16 AM
nuetrality would be coded out if we tried to save it :P
true I guess. Do you know what happened to Asylon helping preserve neutrality ? It seems Aurvandil really does hate me, I don't want them to attack us and they fight, now I wish they would attack and no battle. ( I really need one more prestige point.)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on November 16, 2012, 10:22:03 AM
We are just chilling currently. It's Brovandil up in here we are broing it up left right and center.

My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed some of my brain cells, prepare to die.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 16, 2012, 02:05:01 PM
There was little we could do we dont want to attack Terran and all we could do was support the colony as an ideal. We support small kingdoms and want more diversity in the westlands. We see Dwilight turning into a hegemony before our eyes and believe kingdoms should be more nationalistic independent and wary of outsiders its our unique north korean style of rp lol
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on November 16, 2012, 02:46:35 PM
There was little we could do we dont want to attack Terran and all we could do was support the colony as an ideal. We support small kingdoms and want more diversity in the westlands. We see Dwilight turning into a hegemony before our eyes and believe kingdoms should be more nationalistic independent and wary of outsiders its our unique north korean style of rp lol
Totally agree.
Yet again i would try to keep my own opinion from interfering my characters opinions.
Even though thats sometimes very difficult.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on November 16, 2012, 07:16:17 PM
There was little we could do we dont want to attack Terran

Awwww yyeaaahhhh  8) You know you freakin' love us. We're like that big brother that you really pisses you off, but you know you love us deep down. I'm feelin' all warm and fuzzy inside Glaumy!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 16, 2012, 07:36:05 PM
Always love Terran, just annoyed by the jackal Vellos. Asylon on the other hand is loving the new magistrate, communicative and interesting a much better relationship than before.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Ehndras on November 16, 2012, 08:15:45 PM
I's be loved? Huzzah! <3

Yeah, I'm trying to be the complete opposite of Vellos while having the same determination and loyalty to Terran ideals. Sort of a Young, female, liberally-minded Triunist Vs. stereotypical hardass old religious man, and an Astroist to boot. I was going to be more moderate with Alura but I thought, hey what the hell, considering the background history I made for her, shouldn't she be a little more... Fiery? She'd be boring if I didn't make her controversial, but she has the best interest of Terran at heart in the end and is extremely blunt, honest, and passionate about everything she does.

My goal with Alura is to provide a counter-balance to Allison's crazy with her own form of crazy. Where Allison's a b*tch that plots everyone's downfall and sows discord wherever she walks, I want Alura to be the crazy Terran ruler who makes friends with *everyone*, sees the potential in any situation, and likes to give little nudges in the right direction so that things become more interesting without having to resort to bull!@#$ politicking and backstabbing.

I'm surprised, I've managed to play this for 6 months without betraying anyone or even really plotting. Weird. I've never roleplayed an overly-forward but politically-inclined character before. I'm having quite a bit of fun with Alura. :) Its refreshing to be super-forward where everyone else is lying about anything and everything :P When your words can't be used against you unless you allow them to, it really opens up a few interesting routes.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 16, 2012, 08:53:07 PM
Glaumring never lies... Its true...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Ehndras on November 16, 2012, 09:37:01 PM
He just... Colors the truth in all those fantastically magical colors created by Bloodmoon Fruit <_< *ahem*
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on November 17, 2012, 07:28:50 PM
My goal with Alura is to provide a counter-balance to Allison's crazy with her own form of crazy. Where Allison's a b*tch that plots everyone's downfall and sows discord wherever she walks, I want Alura to be the crazy Terran ruler who makes friends with *everyone*, sees the potential in any situation, and likes to give little nudges in the right direction so that things become more interesting without having to resort to bull!@#$ politicking and backstabbing.

I'm surprised, I've managed to play this for 6 months without betraying anyone or even really plotting. Weird. I've never roleplayed an overly-forward but politically-inclined character before. I'm having quite a bit of fun with Alura. :) Its refreshing to be super-forward where everyone else is lying about anything and everything :P When your words can't be used against you unless you allow them to, it really opens up a few interesting routes.

Curiously, this is how Hireshmont II actually began. As Duke of Chesney, he was widely respected and liked by lots of people– it's how he got to be powerful. He had a standard policy of making friends with everyone– and it was quite successful.

BM is a long-term game. You're still in the short-run right now: you'll make enemies and acquire grudges eventually.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Collingwood on November 18, 2012, 01:40:59 AM
You have to love Allison... roleplays herself into a corner and someone else always ends up taking her heat, she is like a bullet-proof snake with a wig and lipstick....
As to Alura and enemies. Is Erasmus still alive? Would make for some kind of amazing if he ended up judge of Aurvandil or some such... that said, he is dead as like as not.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Collingwood on November 18, 2012, 01:43:30 AM
Still alive in Asylon...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 18, 2012, 02:44:50 AM
Asylon is a wretched hive of villiany and scum... Watch your step.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 18, 2012, 05:49:05 AM
Apparently i am now Asylon's banker as well as aurvandil...or thats what Terran thinks atleast.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on November 18, 2012, 09:30:45 AM
Apparently i am now Asylon's banker as well as aurvandil...or thats what Terran thinks atleast.

From where we're standing, they seem to be pretty buddy-buddy these days...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 18, 2012, 05:16:48 PM
Asylon hasnt done anything to make anyone think we support Aurvandiil beyond mentioning it on these forums. Asides from supporting a small colony there is absolutely no reason to think that Asylon is in cahoots with Aurvandiil. Perhaps we are, perhaps we are in with the Zuma, the Kabrinskians... The Terrans.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 18, 2012, 05:51:47 PM
Asylon hasnt done anything to make anyone think we support Aurvandiil beyond mentioning it on these forums. Asides from supporting a small colony there is absolutely no reason to think that Asylon is in cahoots with Aurvandiil. Perhaps we are, perhaps we are in with the Zuma, the Kabrinskians... The Terrans.
Zuma...sure you are, Kabrinskia...dead and irrelevant, Terran...haha, like they would trust you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Collingwood on November 18, 2012, 05:56:25 PM
Trust is quite fluid when it comes to all out war.  more the merrier pick a side and kick some hide
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on November 18, 2012, 06:30:00 PM
Kabrinskia is not quite dead.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on November 18, 2012, 06:54:46 PM
Asylon hasnt done anything to make anyone think we support Aurvandiil beyond mentioning it on these forums.

Asylon's only alliances are with the colonies of Aurvandil. Isn't that IC enough?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 18, 2012, 07:09:39 PM
Stop bringing IC reality into this OOC conversation! ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 18, 2012, 07:13:31 PM
Why would supporting a colony and opposing a gank of kingdoms on a weaker foe make us cohorts with Aurvandiil? Glaumring was born in Port Raviel during the kingdom Melodia. If there is a kingdom that doesnt belong in Paisly it would have to be the new comer D'Harans.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 18, 2012, 07:33:58 PM
The "new comer D'Harans" are bad, but the newer new comer Provincia people are OK?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 18, 2012, 08:04:08 PM
Indirik, your version of Dwilight history is SA. The rest of us have our own histories that are just as important and complex as your own history. What right does D'Hara have to a city that has been owned by five other kingdoms in its history? Madinans, Melodians, Shadovaran, D'Haran and Provencia. Its importance is pertinent to who holds it important and the situations in Dwilight have nothing to do with black and white solutions. If we ran the world like a train, a machine a click what importance do the passions of its nobility have in the grand scheme of things.

I strive to create drama, I strive to create situations both beneficial and a bane to my character. I know most of you strive for safety and predictable outcomes. I see a greek tragedy where you see a boardgame.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Marlboro on November 18, 2012, 08:09:46 PM
Kabrinskia...dead and irrelevant

Don't count us out quite yet.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 18, 2012, 10:12:55 PM
What right does D'Hara have to a city that has been owned by five other kingdoms in its history?
So you think that only the very first realm to own a city has any right to it? So what right do the newcomer Asylonians have to the city of Via? Or Itau?

I'm just trying to make sense of the things you're saying. That's really hard to do when so much of what you're saying is internally inconsistent.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 18, 2012, 10:34:20 PM
Being consistant is boring...

Indirik your way of seeing things is only one way. Its not the only way. We support the new colony because if the whole map is SA Dwilight will become very dull and probably lose a lot of players out of boredom and if Dwilight is made of only a few power groups new players will lose interest. We want new faces in power, and creating different dynamics on Dwilight. You want a bunch of kingdoms surrounding you that are all the same, we want to be surrounded by difference. We are proud to be free.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 18, 2012, 11:15:27 PM
Well, I'm just a newcomer but I've followed with interest this topic. My opinion probably worth less than the time you spend reading it, but hey, talk is cheap and I would like to give it a try  ;D

Of course realms come and go and the regions they owned change of rulers, but D'Hara was (I don't know for how long) ruler of Paisly until the new colony was founded. They're in their right to fight to get it back, as any other realm has the right to support or fight this decision.

It's also my opinion that the more different realms there are, the more fun and diversity we can enjoy. But as I've read, Asylon has supported the Province for the sake of this diversity while it has become a huge hegemony in Dwilight. Something is missing here  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 18, 2012, 11:37:34 PM
Indirik, your version of Dwilight history is SA. The rest of us have our own histories that are just as important and complex as your own history. What right does D'Hara have to a city that has been owned by five other kingdoms in its history? Madinans, Melodians, Shadovaran, D'Haran and Provencia. Its importance is pertinent to who holds it important and the situations in Dwilight have nothing to do with black and white solutions. If we ran the world like a train, a machine a click what importance do the passions of its nobility have in the grand scheme of things.

I strive to create drama, I strive to create situations both beneficial and a bane to my character. I know most of you strive for safety and predictable outcomes. I see a greek tragedy where you see a boardgame.

Madinians... Dead. And they approved our claim to Paisly before biting the dust, btw.

Melodia... Dead. Folded back into Madina. Who recognized our claim to Paisly.

Shadovar... Dead. Folded into D'Hara. D'Hara is the continuation of Shadovar....

Your argument is rather weak.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 18, 2012, 11:49:20 PM
Being consistant is boring...

Indirik your way of seeing things is only one way. Its not the only way. We support the new colony because if the whole map is SA Dwilight will become very dull and probably lose a lot of players out of boredom and if Dwilight is made of only a few power groups new players will lose interest. We want new faces in power, and creating different dynamics on Dwilight. You want a bunch of kingdoms surrounding you that are all the same, we want to be surrounded by difference. We are proud to be free.

Right. Because splitting apart a bloc (the 'moot) is such an excellent way to weaken another (the theocracies). Totally sound reasoning.

And I'm still unable to grasp whether anyone in Asylon or Aurvandil seriously expected the 'moot to just say "Oh, sure, it's all fine, keep our lands". D'Hara had made it extremely clear it would reclaim its lands one way or another.

And if you, the second-largest realm on the continent I believe, really want to support diversity, then why the hell don't you actually do something about it. You could either break up yourselves, or act on your words.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 12:05:58 AM
Well, I'm just a newcomer but I've followed with interest this topic. My opinion probably worth less than the time you spend reading it, but hey, talk is cheap and I would like to give it a try  ;D

Of course realms come and go and the regions they owned change of rulers, but D'Hara was (I don't know for how long) ruler of Paisly until the new colony was founded. They're in their right to fight to get it back, as any other realm has the right to support or fight this decision.

It's also my opinion that the more different realms there are, the more fun and diversity we can enjoy. But as I've read, Asylon has supported the Province for the sake of this diversity while it has become a huge hegemony in Dwilight. Something is missing here  ::)


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemony

Asylon is not a huge hegemony... It is not even a hegemony.


Im not going to say anything anymore I sense the sharks are going to come out and argue with everything I say for the next few pages...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on November 19, 2012, 12:15:39 AM
And if you, the second-largest realm on the continent I believe, really want to support diversity, then why the hell don't you actually do something about it. You could either break up yourselves, or act on your words.

Because both IC-wise and OOC-wise the Dukes of Asylon belive that once we split up in our seperate kingdoms, Astrum or Kabrinskia(well not anymore) will come marching in and start forcing us to worship their stars. At the moment we will remain united.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 12:26:17 AM
People say Asylon is a big realm but they never take into account we are apart of no federations or organizations. SA is one giant realm, SA will never fight SA. The Moot is one large realm they will never fight eachother. Asylon allies according to situations, we feel no need to have everyone on the map love us.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on November 19, 2012, 12:37:52 AM
If things come about as I plan, the realm that takes the place of Kabrinskia will be different.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on November 19, 2012, 12:47:26 AM
Asylon hasnt done anything to make anyone think we support Aurvandiil beyond mentioning it on these forums. Asides from supporting a small colony there is absolutely no reason to think that Asylon is in cahoots with Aurvandiil.

Right... but supporting that realm is a really big reason to think Asylon is buddies with Aurvandil. There doesn't need be other reasons. When you are supporting a realm conquering the heart of their enemy and setting up new colonies there, its a pretty good indication that you support that realm. In fact, it doesn't get much more supportive than that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 19, 2012, 01:15:03 AM
Because both IC-wise and OOC-wise the Dukes of Asylon belive that once we split up in our seperate kingdoms, Astrum or Kabrinskia(well not anymore) will come marching in and start forcing us to worship their stars. At the moment we will remain united.

There are plenty of reasons other than a will to spread theocracies that could push Asylon's neighbors to attack you. I'd say most of them are of your own doing. Glaumring managed to turn friendly neighbourly relations into hostile ones with all of his neighbors in a very short amount of time. Terran and D'Hara used to view Asylon very favorably, especially D'Hara. I hope you can imagine how supporting Florence and constantly sending priests to our realm has permanently ruined your relations with the 'moot.

If other realms have hostile intents with Asylon, it really is not in any way due to a desire to spread astroism.

Also, smaller realms mean more taxes, closer recruitment centres. If you broke up into a federation of realms, you wouldn't really be all that much more vulnerable. That is, as long as you trust each other.

People say Asylon is a big realm but they never take into account we are apart of no federations or organizations. SA is one giant realm, SA will never fight SA. The Moot is one large realm they will never fight eachother. Asylon allies according to situations, we feel no need to have everyone on the map love us.

Asylon chose to say a nice big "FU" to all of their neighbors, but had a nice number of friends before. D'Hara even tried to have the charter of the 'moot modified at one point to integrate Asylon as a semi-member. Nobody forced diplomatic isolation onto Asylon.

And you are wrong. One day, SA will fight SA. And though we do our best to keep the 'moot united, I would never say never. All alliances need nurturing.

And let me add there's quite a difference between limiting one's alliances to prevent diplomatic gridlock and punctual alliances and friendships that are broken as convenient to do so.

Right... but supporting that realm is a really big reason to think Asylon is buddies with Aurvandil. There doesn't need be other reasons. When you are supporting a realm conquering the heart of their enemy and setting up new colonies there, its a pretty good indication that you support that realm. In fact, it doesn't get much more supportive than that.

Indeed. Asylon supports the usurpers. The usurpers are a puppet of Aurvandil. Ipso facto, Asylon supports Aurvandil.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 01:15:23 AM
Whats wrong with supporting Aurvandiil? All I hear about is SA plans to invade Asylon from even before the war against Kabrinskia. The only Astroist state that Asylon gets along with is Morek.

If we support SA we support all of our eventual dooms, for all kingdoms not a theocracy are merely a tool to be used by SA. There is no room for diversity in fundamentalist theocracy and if you think SA will change to accomadate your diverse kingdom you are wrong.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 19, 2012, 01:25:51 AM
Whats wrong with supporting Aurvandiil? All I hear about is SA plans to invade Asylon from even before the war against Kabrinskia. The only Astroist state that Asylon gets along with is Morek.

If we support SA we support all of our eventual dooms, for all kingdoms not a theocracy are merely a tool to be used by SA. There is no room for diversity in fundamentalist theocracy and if you think SA will change to accomadate your diverse kingdom you are wrong.

You mean, aside from the fact that Aurvandil is the only thing that could have ever caused the 'moot to align itself in such a way with the theocracies?

You fear the spread of the astrocracies so much, and yet out of this fear you support the very elements that are provoking it.

Had the war continued on badly without northern intervention, I wouldn't have been surprised to see 'moot realms starting to offer converting to SA or adopting a theocratic government style in order to get SA's help. I know a few would much rather live as "puppets" to SA than as puppets to Mendicant. I doubt it would have been in SA's advantage to let Aurvandil grow out of control just to get a few more converts, but still the fact remains that the Aurvandilian threat is a much more likely force to make people adopt SA than SA is itself. Many people, when faced with a lose-lose scenario between siding with one of two opposing blocs, will side with the enemy of whoever attacked them first, just out of spite. Many D'Harans are proud of being D'Haran, for example, and would not stand being a vassal to any foreign blocs. But if D'Hara is menaced with extinction, these people are sure as hell to do all in their power, whatever the cost, to get back at the people who stole their realm from them.

Aurvandil won't help you prevent SA hegemony. The only thing it can do is incite non-aligned parties to join in on the hegemony just to better resist Aurvandil's unnatural strength. And besides, at least in SA you can try to go up the ranks and get involved in the power plays. Sure beats being Mendicant's bitch and being part of their fishy scheme that pumps CS and gold out of nowhere.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 01:40:42 AM
Chenier you do not realize how tenuous your little sand castle truly is and you would be shocked to find out how many nobles in the moot and SA oppose SA and actually support stemming its gargantuan growth. Things that will become very apparent soon enough.

The issue with Asylon and its neighbors has never been about the nobles, ut has always been about opposition to the duplicity and schemeinf of Chenier and Vellos. Two leaders on their way to obsolencense very soon and a new order of things replacing your bumbling leadership.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 01:50:52 AM
I remember not long ago Aurvandiil and D'Hara were buddy buddy and it wasnt until Aurvandiil attacked Barca that your opinions so drastically changed about Aurvandiil. I remember, you can deny but things used to be very different indeed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on November 19, 2012, 02:00:40 AM
Whats wrong with supporting Aurvandiil?

Nothing, OOCly.

ICly, to people of the 'moot, everything. To the 'Moot supporting Aurvandil is supporting the destruction of the 'Moot and their entire way of life. That's what we were talking about.

I originally posted that, from our perspective, Asylon seemed buddy buddy with Aurvandil lately, and you objected, and I said that supporting the puppet in Paisly is about as supportive as you can get and insulting as you can get to the 'Moot. Thus, ICly from the 'Moot perspective, Asylon is basically saying "hey, we don't like you guys and don't want you to be around anymore. We prefer Aurvandil hegemony in the Maroccidens."
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 02:20:58 AM
The Moot ended its friendship with Asylon because it was convenient. Asylon doesnt even know why Terran stopped being friendly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on November 19, 2012, 02:37:55 AM
Probably it had to do with flip flopping during the Terran-Kabrinskia war.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 02:42:28 AM
No it wasn't that it was something else. I vaguely remember sending Vellos a letter criticizing something he did or said and he used it as an immediate pretext to withdrawal all obligations with defending Asylon to go and defend Barca. It came as a complete shock to Asylon and showed us that Terran wasn't as dedicated to Asylon as we were to them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 02:44:54 AM
Anyways all this talk of an old war is of no use. Asylon has great relations with the new magistrate of Terran and several other kingdoms in the area. Chenier and Vellos are has beens.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 19, 2012, 03:50:41 AM
No it wasn't that it was something else.

This is part of your problem, Glaumring. Instead of believing what people say about the reasons for their own actions, you just decide that they've done them for some completely different reason, rather than accept that they did something you dislike because of your own unpredictable and unpalatable actions.

I have no idea whether it's actually true of this specific instance, but it's one of the things I've seen you do in the past.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 19, 2012, 04:00:34 AM
you would be shocked to find out how many nobles in the moot and SA oppose SA and actually support stemming its gargantuan growth.
Actually, I would not be all that surprised about it. Most of us are quite certain that there are a significant number of members that are actually plants/spies/etc. It doesn't take much to figure this out. Just say something bad about Mendicant, or about attacking Aurvandil, in the Full Members channel, and chances are that in a few days someone will slip you a letter about how someone in Aurvandil is laughing it up at that letter. We've kicked out a few obvious spies/plants, but we all know there are more.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 04:33:01 AM
There are so many spies you will never find them all...


Anaris, you dont have to believe what I say. The truth will eventually get out on its own and in a few months or years, doesnt matter I will be vindicated.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 19, 2012, 04:38:43 AM
You're right, we won't. We're not even really trying. What's the point? Kick one out, they'll just plant another.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 04:47:03 AM
What makes you think its some outside force? Its not... Its the very core, your brother, your sister... Your entire family.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 19, 2012, 04:51:20 AM
Anaris, you dont have to believe what I say. The truth will eventually get out on its own and in a few months or years, doesnt matter I will be vindicated.

See, this is the kind of thing that makes you sound like a nutcase, and ensures that no one but those already devoted to you believes a word you say.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 19, 2012, 05:04:37 AM
See, this is the kind of thing that makes you sound like a nutcase, and ensures that no one but those already devoted to you believes a word you say.
+1, especially when his truth is that he knows other people's thoughts and opinions and the actual people are just lying. Which is what he is saying for Terran, and Vellos specifically.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 05:05:31 AM
lol, just having fun. Lighten up... Or maybe watch your back. 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on November 19, 2012, 05:10:39 AM
So many people plot for the exact same amount of lands in Dwilight that no matter what someone does in game, that there are repercussions and conflict in game. It's fun for everyone, so I say plot on, just don't get too set in your plots... Keep adapting to the situation. :D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on November 19, 2012, 05:43:59 AM
Asylon doesnt even know why Terran stopped being friendly.

Probably it had to do with flip flopping during the Terran-Kabrinskia war.

No it wasn't that it was something else.

No. That is literally exactly why. There is literally nothing else.

You act like we haven't had extended arguments about it at least 3 or 4 times on here.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 07:11:27 AM
We will disagree on the things that happened. The fact is two things did happen and none of us know which it was. So we can argue forever about it. You don't know Glaumring ingame, many of you only know me from the forums. Im the bad guy that had built a kingdom from dust in Storms keep and took a handful of nobles to Asylon, lead a revolt and built a very successful kingdom with the same loyal nobles of old Thulsoma. You can use crazy or insane to diminish my character , my being I only see fear when its said fear that one day I will come and do to your kingdom that I did for Asylon, to come in like a whirlwind my sword thirsty and my eyes rolling in my head and in your throne room send you crashing to the ground, the wolf at the gates, the fox in the pantry, the crow at the window. Aye, there will be a time when Glaumring the Apasurain comes to collect and he will know your name! Huzzah!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 19, 2012, 01:09:10 PM
I remember not long ago Aurvandiil and D'Hara were buddy buddy and it wasnt until Aurvandiil attacked Barca that your opinions so drastically changed about Aurvandiil. I remember, you can deny but things used to be very different indeed.

Yea, well, breaking treaties to backstab one's federated friends can have this impact on people. Though Mendicant was always rather annoying to deal with, it was correctly predicted that the Lurias would strike at us whenever they got the chance to, and it was desired to have Aurvandil on our side rather than against us. I fail to see your point. We never loved Aurvandil, I just just praising them and giving them gifts IG in order to try my best to prevent them from attacking Barca, which they decided to do anyways. Some of the praises were actually sincere, too. Heck, a lot of people really despised Madina and were glad to see it gone. Now if only Aurvandil could have respected its treaties and focused against Luria instead of backstabbing Barca, maybe we'd have been able to stand their pompous ruler a bit more and pretend we actually really liked them and really thought they were beacons of civilization and whatever.

The Moot ended its friendship with Asylon because it was convenient. Asylon doesnt even know why Terran stopped being friendly.

Please stop bringing this up. You always then whine and go about asking for posts to be removed. Whatever you may think the reason is, everyone in D'Hara and Terran keep repeating:

Probably it had to do with flip flopping during the Terran-Kabrinskia war.

And recent actions by Glaumring and his church only made things worse.

It's rather amazing how Asylon is only concerned about the hegemony they are next to. As if the theocracies were all that existed on Dwilight, and that no other bloc, if allowed to grow, could prove threatening. Taking out or weakening the 'moot bloc will not help get a balance against astroist hegemony... back when Kabrinskia was threatening this, Terran, D'Hara, and Asylon all got friendly and made defensive pacts. And Kabrinskia was successfully held off.  Asylon could have relied upon the 'moot had it proven itself to be a reliable ally to it. Instead, you now favor an Aurvandilian hegemony and, de facto, a lurian hegemony (because the Lurias prevent D'Hara from helping out the rest of the 'moot, and Aurvandil prevents the rest of the 'moot from helping D'Hara). You say you want more independant realms, but you wish really hard for the reduction of the amount of blocs. With Aurvandil attacking the 'moot, that means that D'Hara was alone for fighting the Lurias, until Vesperi came. You are giving a chance for Luria Nova to gob up its neighbors, and god knows what to Fissoa.

Is this really what you want? A bunch of Aurvandil puppets to the South, Luria Nova and buddies in the south-east and isles? Whose gonna help you if Kabrinskia or Astrum strike again? Aurvandil, you say? How will they do that if the newly consolidated Lurian Empire strikes at them first, or right after they send their armies to your border?

Asylon's diplomacy is extremely short-sighted. It is in the 'moot's best interests to prevent any rise of hegemonies anywhere on the continent, because we border them all. And here you are supporting the 'moot's annexation, as if this conflict was all summed into a Barca/Terran-Aurvandil war with no continental consequences of any kind. Asylon's best bet was the 'moot, and it really shot itself in the foot when it forgot this.

Machiavel knew that an Aurvandil-Barca war would have global repercussions. Being risk averse, that's why he did his very best to play nice with Mendicant and to avoid this war. Because there are two possibile outcomes: either this war serves to increase Aurvandilian and Lurian hegemony, or either this war serves to increase astroist hegemony. And though he's willing to support astroist hegemony if it means keeping his realm and his allies intact, he'd really have just rathered just another unaligned faction to help keep Allison and her zealots in check or to deal with the Lurias as needed. Aurvandil would have been of much better help to Asylon had it not attacked Barca. Had Kabrinskia attacked you, they come have sailed with their 40 000 CS to their doorstep and pounded them into the ground, without any worries whatsoever from reprisals. Because, you know, wars with Kabrinskia never had to involve any other SA realm.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 04:38:12 PM
Yeah yeah everything makes perfect sense and only matters from your enlightened view you  arrogant sod.

I like how recent actions of my church has only made things worse yet D'Hara executed one of our priests yet niw its Asylons fault for preaching in Paisly and making things worse. You murdered one of our priests you arrogant wacko.

All of Asylons actions as of late are because we want to see Vellos and Chenier pay for their crimes and guess what, justice is coming for you both.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 19, 2012, 04:41:58 PM
We will disagree on the things that happened. The fact is two things did happen and none of us know which it was. So we can argue forever about it.

You can be told the truth all day long by people who know it perfectly well, but if you won't listen, then no, you will never know.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 19, 2012, 04:43:30 PM
it was correctly predicted that the Lurias would strike at us whenever they got the chance to

Yeah, that's one of those classic self-fulfilling prophecies. If you hadn't been all chatting about how best to get the drop on Luria before we attacked you (or whatever; I don't remember the exact substance of the messages leaked), Luria wouldn't have attacked you.

(Then. At some point, yeah, we almost certainly would have, but it probably wouldn't have had to happen right then.)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 04:44:35 PM
So basically my opinion or how I saw things doesnt matter? The truth only comes out of your friends mouths I just lie all the time?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 19, 2012, 04:58:12 PM
So basically my opinion or how I saw things doesnt matter? The truth only comes out of your friends mouths I just lie all the time?

Not at all.

But when you've got a situation where Player A does something, you declare that Player A did it for X reason, and Player A or someone close to him responds, "No, I did it for Y reason," and your response is, "Well, i guess we'll never really know for sure..."

Then I think most people actually do know for sure, because they believe what Player A says about his own actions on the OOC forum.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 05:05:21 PM
Yeah but no one believes my version of what I did.

Im done talking about this !@#$.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 19, 2012, 05:11:15 PM
Yeah but no one believes my version of what I did.

That's probably because, for some time now, you've regularly changed your story about most of the important things you do.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 05:22:11 PM
No my story has been fairly consistant since the beginning... Chenier and Vellos are lying arrogant pricks... That hasn't changed since the beginning.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 19, 2012, 05:23:52 PM
Chenier and Vellos are lying arrogant pricks... That hasn't changed since the beginning.

Arrogant I'll grant you, and Chénier has a tendency to spin propaganda until he believes it himself, but Vellos is usually pretty much on the level when he's OOC.

Quote
No my story has been fairly consistant since the beginning...

If you really believe that at this point, then you've got some problems, mate.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 05:27:22 PM
Yeah Im totally cray cray... :o
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: ^ban^ on November 19, 2012, 05:46:08 PM
Yeah Im totally cray cray... :o

Having just read the last five pages of this thread... that's my assessment. At one point you even stated "consistency is boring."
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 05:59:18 PM
Yes consistancy in a roleplaying game is boring. I am
Not trying to win BM. Sometimes in BM even when things are going good you have to shake things up. Bringing us back to the Asylon Kabrinskian war, one all the nobles of Asylon wanted to fight because we were bored and wanted to do something different, good or bad. If im crazy then so are 31 nobles in Asylon because we all decided on every course of action together.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 19, 2012, 06:06:54 PM
Yes consistancy in a roleplaying game is boring. I am
Not trying to win BM. Sometimes in BM even when things are going good you have to shake things up. Bringing us back to the Asylon Kabrinskian war, one all the nobles of Asylon wanted to fight because we were bored and wanted to do something different, good or bad. If im crazy then so are 31 nobles in Asylon because we all decided on every course of action together.

We don't think you're crazy because of why you decide to do things.

We think you're crazy because you change your story about why you decide to do things very frequently, and then complain about not understanding why people don't trust you anymore.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 06:10:47 PM
Oh for !@#$ sakes , do you have anything to do today?  Your opinions are irrelevant, there is already a lot of people ingame that I talk to and we have good relations and have nothing to do with your opinions so I know your opinion is complete bull!@#$. So drop it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 19, 2012, 06:12:08 PM
Oh for !@#$ sakes , do you have anything to do today?  Your opinions are irrelevant, there is already a lot of people ingame that I talk to and we have good relations and have nothing to do with your opinions so I know your opinion is complete bull!@#$. So drop it.

There are also plenty of people in-game with whom you have terrible relations.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 06:29:14 PM
Good! This is called battlemaster, not federatemaster. There are people who even hate the Dali Lama and love hitler. I can't answer for everyone elses stupidity.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on November 19, 2012, 06:31:12 PM
Oh for !@#$ sakes , do you have anything to do today?  Your opinions are irrelevant, there is already a lot of people ingame that I talk to and we have good relations and have nothing to do with your opinions so I know your opinion is complete bull!@#$. So drop it.

Why are you posting all over the forums constantly bringing yourself up and defending yourself if you don't care what people think about you?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on November 19, 2012, 06:32:40 PM
Oh for !@#$ sakes , do you have anything to do today?  Your opinions are irrelevant, there is already a lot of people ingame that I talk to and we have good relations and have nothing to do with your opinions so I know your opinion is complete bull!@#$. So drop it.

uuuh, dude if thats true for you then just ignore the man, don't imply him to stop posting on the forums(about this or any subject), timothy is a very active and dedicated man for this game in many ways.
Perhaps my opinion is that everyone ought to shut up in most discussions because most people just participate in discussions to get there right what ever the cost(even if it means going all off topic and spaming the thread with crap), not to learn from each other or think about things in new perspectives.
Still i dont go ranting everyone to shut it, especially not directly towards people that deserve some (extra) respect.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 06:46:10 PM
Glaumring = hitler : killed over 50000 Asylonians and unknown amounts of Kabrinskians, Mech Alb and Elets.

Glaumring = Dali Lama : started his own religion


Booyeah


Just want to say thank you to Nosferatus, you make perfect level headed sense and I respect your desire to end this conversation. Cheers!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on November 19, 2012, 06:48:44 PM
Dali Lama : started his own religion

lolwut?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 06:50:34 PM
lolwut?

Lol ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on November 19, 2012, 06:53:05 PM
Lol ;D

i thought i was weird...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on November 19, 2012, 07:12:32 PM
Right.

Because the Dalai Lama founded a religion.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 07:13:34 PM
Oh come on it was a joke...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on November 19, 2012, 09:32:04 PM
Oh come on it was a joke...

Jokes are typically funny.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 19, 2012, 10:24:57 PM
Which would imply that some of you have a sense of humour... Lets be serious...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 19, 2012, 11:18:03 PM
Yeah, that's one of those classic self-fulfilling prophecies. If you hadn't been all chatting about how best to get the drop on Luria before we attacked you (or whatever; I don't remember the exact substance of the messages leaked), Luria wouldn't have attacked you.

(Then. At some point, yeah, we almost certainly would have, but it probably wouldn't have had to happen right then.)

Regardless of the timing, it was coming one way or another.

Arrogant I'll grant you, and Chénier has a tendency to spin propaganda until he believes it himself, but Vellos is usually pretty much on the level when he's OOC.

If you really believe that at this point, then you've got some problems, mate.

All I said was D'Hara and Machiavel's stances on Glaumring's actions. I fail to see how I can be incorrect.

I can be arrogant and condescending, sure. And sometimes I tend to use hyperboles. But I can't think of anything I expressed in this thread to be incorrect or a lie.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 19, 2012, 11:20:27 PM
Regardless of the timing, it was coming one way or another.
Yeah, but the reason it happened when it did was your somewhat clumsy attempts to prepare for it.

Quote
All I said was D'Hara and Machiavel's stances on Glaumring's actions. I fail to see how I can be incorrect.

I can be arrogant and condescending, sure. And sometimes I tend to use hyperboles. But I can't think of anything I expressed in this thread to be incorrect or a lie.

Yeah; I don't think there's any of that excessive propagandizing going on from your side here. It's happened in the past, though ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on November 19, 2012, 11:56:53 PM
Yeah, but the reason it happened when it did was your somewhat clumsy attempts to prepare for it.


+1

Leaks of D'Haran preparations led to a Lurian mobilization. Oops.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 20, 2012, 12:02:43 AM
+1

Leaks of D'Haran preparations led to a Lurian mobilization. Oops.

Happened while I was gone, I believe. From what I gathered, it did indeed sound rather clumsy and foolish.

Machiavel slips every now and then, but he tended to be careful with these things, forging friendships, pacts, and various agreements without formulating these in such a way as to make it sound aggressive if leaked to the Lurias.

Still, it had to happen one day or another. And I'm quite amazed by how D'Hara has performed, even much moreso considering it gets no aid whatsoever from the rest of the 'moot. I'm actually kind of happy they did this sloppy scheming, it allowed to unblock some latent conflicts and perhaps will lead to a real change to happen for once. The armed battles is a novelty in itself. Imo, the tensions that had been going on between the Lurias and D'Hara weren't much fun and unlikely to ever end. The timing sucked for us, but at least it doesn't seem all that bad.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Ehndras on November 20, 2012, 02:03:06 AM
Since its already been announced to half the world, lets make it official on the forums as well.

Lady Alura Aurea, Chief Magistrate of Terran, and Lord Rynn JeVondair, Prime Minister of D'hara are to be forever known as husband and wife from this day forth! This is the first time in history that two rulers have been wed (that I could find), it is a historical moment for Dwilight and the 'Moot!

</yay>
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 20, 2012, 02:10:11 AM
Since its already been announced to half the world, lets make it official on the forums as well.

Lady Alura Aurea, Chief Magistrate of Terran, and Lord Rynn JeVondair, Prime Minister of D'hara are to be forever known as husband and wife from this day forth! This is the first time in history that two rulers have been wed (that I could find), it is a historical moment for Dwilight and the 'Moot!

</yay>

Not in BM. Nor on Dwilight, I believe, but maybe I'm just thinking of ruler/high government member marriages.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: ^ban^ on November 20, 2012, 04:57:12 AM
This is the first time in history that two rulers have been wed (that I could find), it is a historical moment for Dwilight and the 'Moot!

The immediate example that comes to mind is the marriage between Retravic Stefanovic, Queen of Republic of Fwuvoghor and Hireshmont Vellos, King of Irombrozia.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on November 20, 2012, 05:39:00 AM
I honest to god just hope Glaumring is the most legendary troll in the history of the internet.

Otherwise, well, I just don't know anymore.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 20, 2012, 05:45:24 AM
First time i used the internet was in 1994 ...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on November 20, 2012, 06:01:08 AM
First time i used the internet was in 1994 ...

That's pretty solid.

I was like, 3, then.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 20, 2012, 06:09:09 AM
Webcrawler/yahoo and altavista were the web browsers of choice... Im ancient
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on November 20, 2012, 08:08:44 AM
Since its already been announced to half the world, lets make it official on the forums as well.

Lady Alura Aurea, Chief Magistrate of Terran, and Lord Rynn JeVondair, Prime Minister of D'hara are to be forever known as husband and wife from this day forth! This is the first time in history that two rulers have been wed (that I could find), it is a historical moment for Dwilight and the 'Moot!

</yay>

Yeah not really true at all. Political marriages are approximately as common in BM as they were in the real middle ages.

My character (Hireshmont I, the daddy of the Hireshmont Alura knows) married the ruler of Fwuvoghor when he was King of Irombrozia. That flipped an entire realm to a different side in a major war. Marrying the ruler of an allied realm.... you still got some learnin' to do there!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Eldargard on November 20, 2012, 11:45:09 AM
Webcrawler/yahoo and altavista were the web browsers of choice... Im ancient

Those were search engines... Not browsers. I am glad to have google now.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 20, 2012, 12:35:05 PM
Those were search engines... Not browsers. I am glad to have google now.

Indeed. My soul weeps whenever I see people still using yahoo...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Ehndras on November 20, 2012, 02:50:35 PM
Derp. Oh well, too late. Someone could have informed me when I asked in the Senate and other places to make sure we weren't missing something.

Well, *most recent occurrence in history* :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 20, 2012, 11:48:21 PM
No more Quadvrium#2 Fiorenzazzaz.  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on November 21, 2012, 02:12:11 AM
No more Quadvrium#2 Fiorenzazzaz.  8)

I wonder if the Aurvandi army arriving plans to refound it again?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Ehndras on November 21, 2012, 02:19:51 AM
That would be completely idiotic and a waste of their resources. I hope they do it. :p
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 21, 2012, 02:46:15 AM
I wonder if the Aurvandi army arriving plans to refound it again?

Taking it from another realm would prove more problematic and costly than taking it from the rogues. Not saying they couldn't if they put their backs into it, but sure doesn't seem like it'd be in their best interests.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 06:38:06 PM
Well, it would be profligate and a waste of time, but then that is what Aurvandil is about.

It's perfectly in character for Mendicant to let the Provincia fall, so he could come and conquer it again. Letting D'Hara take Paisly so he can arrive and declare "lol no" which would amuse him, particularly as D'Hara are so determined to keep Paisly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on November 21, 2012, 06:48:35 PM
a waste of time, [...] is what Aurvandil is [...]

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 06:53:58 PM
a waste of time, [...] is what Aurvandil is [...]

Fixed that for you.

Well to be blunt, D'Hara rather chose to create this waste of time when  they declared war and overrode peace talks. Aurvandil didn't want to waste our time faffing around with D'Hara and Terran.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on November 21, 2012, 06:54:18 PM
Well, it would be profligate and a waste of time, but then that is what Aurvandil is about.

It's perfectly in character for Mendicant to let the Provincia fall, so he could come and conquer it again. Letting D'Hara take Paisly so he can arrive and declare "lol no" which would amuse him, particularly as D'Hara are so determined to keep Paisly.

ooook, that makes sense.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 06:57:04 PM
ooook, that makes sense.

Well, it doesn't actually matter to Mendicant if the Provincia is around or not, but annoying/inconveniencing Terran and D'Hara does matter.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 21, 2012, 07:08:51 PM


Well to be blunt, D'Hara rather chose to create this waste of time when  they declared war and overrode peace talks. Aurvandil didn't want to waste our time faffing around with D'Hara and Terran.
I assume you are talking about D'hara declaring war on Provencia, then D'harans saw that as an insult because we were firm on keeping Paisly, I believe you said something like, if you guys remain neutral, sure. Then we remained neutral, Aurvandil made Provencia in Paisly. We were pissed but dealt with it, but Machievel went and attempted a religious uprising, got arrested, and we were just like, ok I guess, then Machievel told us he was tortured and we got pissed enough to remain neutral. So were we trying to workaround the neutrality? Yeah, but torture of our most respected noble and longest standing one was not needed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 21, 2012, 07:11:03 PM
well maybe if you were firm on keeping Paisly...you should've actually kept it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 07:19:50 PM
No, I mean when D'Hara originally declared war starting this whole affair from the beginning. Their declaration of war on the Provincia was a given, D'Hara could never be trusted to uphold their sworn neutrality in the first place.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on November 21, 2012, 07:24:04 PM
No, I mean when D'Hara originally declared war starting this whole affair from the beginning. Their declaration of war on the Provincia was a given, D'Hara could never be trusted to uphold their sworn neutrality in the first place.


You mean, we can be trusted to uphold the Treaty of the Marcoccidens (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/V%C3%A9ins%C3%B8rmoot/Treaty_of_the_Maroccidens)?

I'll take that as a compliment.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 07:25:47 PM

You mean, we can be trusted to uphold the Treaty of the Marcoccidens (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/V%C3%A9ins%C3%B8rmoot/Treaty_of_the_Maroccidens)?

I'll take that as a compliment.

Which came at betraying your sworn neutrality.

Break one agreement to uphold another when you feel like it, yeah you're trustworthy all right when you flip flop from agreement to agreement when it suits you. (But, at least you admit you couldn't be trusted to uphold your neutrality).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on November 21, 2012, 07:27:13 PM
No, I mean when D'Hara originally declared war starting this whole affair from the beginning. Their declaration of war on the Provincia was a given, D'Hara could never be trusted to uphold their sworn neutrality in the first place.

that still isn't much of a sign that you want them to stay neutral.
If you don't believe they stay neutral in the first place then you don't give it much of a chance either, if its worth it or not. (as lennon said, give peace a chance, which is needed to achieve it, to give it a chance) ;)

Its like beeing isreal (or hamas)saying we bomb gaza(or tel aviv/askhelon) because eventually the neutrality would be broken anyway.
If your goal is war in the first place, your doing a great job. (which is perfectly awesome within BM that is)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 07:29:12 PM
that still isn't much of a sign that you want them to stay neutral.
If you don't believe they stay neutral in the first place then you don't give it much of a chance either, if its worth it or not.

Its like beeing isreal (or hamas)saying we bomb gaza(or tel aviv/askhelon) because eventually the neutrality would be broken anyway.
If your goal is war in the first place, your doing a great job.

Well, I put neutrality out there because the peace process is worth the effort, whether it's successful or not. I never expected them to uphold it, but they said they would, and that lead to Rynn making a public oath about it, which quite evidently was meaningless.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on November 21, 2012, 07:33:14 PM
Well, I put neutrality out there because the peace process is worth the effort, whether it's successful or not. I never expected them to uphold it, but they said they would, and that lead to Rynn making a public oath about it, which quite evidently was meaningless.

thats clears it up, you just want war and use 'peace' negotiations just to stall the war when needed(for example if your kingdom crumbles within).
:P

But what would you have done IF they where indeed not breaking any agreement?
Attack anyway?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on November 21, 2012, 07:34:07 PM
Which came at betraying your sworn neutrality.

Break one agreement to uphold another when you feel like it, yeah you're trustworthy all right when you flip flop from agreement to agreement when it suits you. (But, at least you admit you couldn't be trusted to uphold your neutrality).

I was the PM of D'Hara who declared war on Aurvandil. When did I promise neutrality to you, or anyone else?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 07:34:56 PM
thats clears it up, you just want war and use 'peace' negotiations just to stall the war when needed(for example if your kingdom crumbles within).
:P

But what would you have done IF they where indeed not breaking any agreement?
Attack anyway?

The peace process ended some time before the internal collapse, and Aurvandil never stalls through diplomacy, we've never needed to.

If they had not broken the agreement, we would have continued to ignore D'Hara's existence and pursued the war with Terran and their allies.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 07:35:30 PM
I was the PM of D'Hara who declared war on Aurvandil. When did I promise neutrality to you, or anyone else?

...Rynn did.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 21, 2012, 07:39:04 PM
No, I mean when D'Hara originally declared war starting this whole affair from the beginning. Their declaration of war on the Provincia was a given, D'Hara could never be trusted to uphold their sworn neutrality in the first place.
You Aurvandilians say honor is important but when anybody else is honorable they are the worst. By our federation, we were honor bound to declare but it doesn't say, " Declare war when your army is on spread out all around your realm so your enemy can easily come in and destroy the realm with little to no resistance. You complain that the Barcans were doing peace talks but they are pretty crappy federation members because they rarely communicate anything including that so we were just going about the procedure, get the armies ready, then declare war.
Next you claim we were not being neutral, but we considered that being through the ways you asked, don't help Terran or any other realm against Aurvandil, which we did and you were supposed to give us Paisly. Then you make a realm we strictly said would not be tolerated as Paisly is ours and you even told you would give it to us, and we still remained neutral through official diplomacy and did not aid any realm against both Aurvandil, which we agreed to, and to Provencia despite the realm being a slap in the face to D'hara. Then abiding by the things said above, as I said official diplomacy, Machieval really wants Paisly so he attempts to religiously take it, gets tortured which was the last straw. Provencia picked the worst person to torture, second only to the Prime Minister, and then expects us to be alright with it. We should have declared war on it from the second it was made but we tried to be nice, while Provencia acted like Aurvandil but without the military power to stop people from  declaring war when others got fed up with them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 21, 2012, 07:40:20 PM
...Rynn did.
He was made PM after we declared war, so the promise of neutrality he made in the future was supposed to stop us from declaring war?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 07:47:42 PM
You Aurvandilians say honor is important but when anybody else is honorable they are the worst. By our federation, we were honor bound to declare but it doesn't say, " Declare war when your army is on spread out all around your realm so your enemy can easily come in and destroy the realm with little to no resistance. You complain that the Barcans were doing peace talks but they are pretty crappy federation members because they rarely communicate anything including that so we were just going about the procedure, get the armies ready, then declare war.
Next you claim we were not being neutral, but we considered that being through the ways you asked, don't help Terran or any other realm against Aurvandil, which we did and you were supposed to give us Paisly. Then you make a realm we strictly said would not be tolerated as Paisly is ours and you even told you would give it to us, and we still remained neutral through official diplomacy and did not aid any realm against both Aurvandil, which we agreed to, and to Provencia despite the realm being a slap in the face to D'hara. Then abiding by the things said above, as I said official diplomacy, Machieval really wants Paisly so he attempts to religiously take it, gets tortured which was the last straw. Provencia picked the worst person to torture, second only to the Prime Minister, and then expects us to be alright with it. We should have declared war on it from the second it was made but we tried to be nice, while Provencia acted like Aurvandil but without the military power to stop people from  declaring war when others got fed up with them.

We say honour is important, and honour isn't an excuse for invading some one else's war when they don't want you to, under the pretence of helping them.

And actually, Barca were perfectly aware of my movements a week before the invasion and we made no effort to conceal it, then our Knight Hausos arrived a day before the war declaration to inform them of the Aurvandilan intent to war and to tell them that are to provide terms on which the war is fought. Meaning Barca chooses when, where and how the war is fought, Suffete Karana refused so Aurvandil marched straight into Rettleville to punish Galvez, the Duke and the offender. As much as you would like to paint it as Aurvandil sucker punched Barca before they had a chance to defend themselves, that isn't the case.

Also I don't recall how Aurvandil was "supposed" to give  D'Hara Paisly, you refused our terms for the handover, but still declared that you would be entirely neutral.

And the fact D'Hara supports Chenier's action is the main reason why Aurvandil will now utterly waste Paisly and D'Hara, you don't support a man who abused his position as a priest to unleash a mob on a Lady, which as all reports state, would have had her raped, beaten and killed on the streets of Paisly, now this man  is also an Ambassador of D'Hara and a guest in Paisly, which makes his acts thoroughly shameful and heinous, below honour and decency. But you act as if you Ambassador did nothing wrong, despite launching an act of war and when it failed, using that act of war as an excuse for actual war under the pretence of defending yourself.

Aurvandil has had enough of D'Hara and particularly of your constant political manoeuvring.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 07:49:52 PM
He was made PM after we declared war, so the promise of neutrality he made in the future was supposed to stop us from declaring war?

He was the PM who signed a ceasefire agreement and then swore himself to neutrality.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 21, 2012, 08:01:02 PM
He was the PM who signed a ceasefire agreement and then swore himself to neutrality.
And we have not declared war on Aurvandil or done anything to hurt Aurvandil directly since.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 08:04:34 PM
And we have not declared war on Aurvandil or done anything to hurt Aurvandil directly since.

Well, you interfered in the wars of the west (Breaking your sworn neutrality in the west) and attacked a realm that was under the protection of Aurvandil in instance that it comes under foreign attack, something D'Hara was perfectly aware of when they declared war.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 21, 2012, 08:15:58 PM
We say honour is important, and honour isn't an excuse for invading some one else's war when they don't want you to, under the pretence of helping them.

And actually, Barca were perfectly aware of my movements a week before the invasion and we made no effort to conceal it, then our Knight Hausos arrived a day before the war declaration to inform them of the Aurvandilan intent to war and to tell them that are to provide terms on which the war is fought. Meaning Barca chooses when, where and how the war is fought, Suffete Karana refused so Aurvandil marched straight into Rettleville to punish Galvez, the Duke and the offender. As much as you would like to paint it as Aurvandil sucker punched Barca before they had a chance to defend themselves, that isn't the case.
To your first point, that's why I said Barcans are bad federated partners, we were told Aurvandil was attacking them and so we came to their aid, they never once told us about peace talks despite considerable amounts of coordinating our armies through the halls of the Veinsormoot which  includes Barca's ruler and other high ranking members so if us aiding them was a bad idea, they could have at least mentioned it since they knew we were going to be declaring war.  To your second point, to the moot it felt like a sucker punch because as I said, Barcans don't like to communicate, I am not saying it was a sucker punch though, it's just that's how every character out of Barca and Aurvandil see it.
Also I don't recall how Aurvandil was "supposed" to give  D'Hara Paisly, you refused our terms for the handover, but still declared that you would be entirely neutral.

And the fact D'Hara supports Chenier's action is the main reason why Aurvandil will now utterly waste Paisly and D'Hara, you don't support a man who abused his position as a priest to unleash a mob on a Lady, which as all reports state, would have had her raped, beaten and killed on the streets of Paisly, now this man  is also an Ambassador of D'Hara and a guest in Paisly, which makes his acts thoroughly shameful and heinous, below honour and decency. But you act as if you Ambassador did nothing wrong, despite launching an act of war and when it failed, using that act of war as an excuse for actual war under the pretence of defending yourself.

Aurvandil has had enough of D'Hara and particularly of your constant political manoeuvring.


Next, we were told if we remain neutral we get Paisly, what terms did we refuse for the handover? Also two main points to your following paragraph, we are not saying was Machievel did was right or that it warrants cause for a war, what caused the war was the torturing of Machievel which topped off all the other things they did to piss us off. Lady Florence was in no danger of any serious harm, she would have been kicked out of the position of margrave of Paisly and Machievel would have took the position, making it D'hara's. Lady Florence's only serious damage would have been to her pride. Want to argue? Look at every other religious uprising in BM, the peasants did no serious damage to the previous holder of position.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 21, 2012, 08:21:10 PM
Well, you interfered in the wars of the west (Breaking your sworn neutrality in the west) and attacked a realm that was under the protection of Aurvandil in instance that it comes under foreign attack, something D'Hara was perfectly aware of when they declared war.
We swore neutrality to Aurvandil saying we would not aid either side of your war, we did not say we would remain neutral to any war in the west for one, and secondly, a nation has to actually act neutral to be neutral. If they aren't being neutral we are not the ones violating neutrality, they are.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 08:26:38 PM
To your first point, that's why I said Barcans are bad federated partners, we were told Aurvandil was attacking them and so we came to their aid, they never once told us about peace talks despite considerable amounts of coordinating our armies through the halls of the Veinsormoot which  includes Barca's ruler and other high ranking members so if us aiding them was a bad idea, they could have at least mentioned it since they knew we were going to be declaring war.

Yes, well I made it clear to the 'Moot and quite concisely said "You don't need to attack, we've nearly attained peace, and attacking will remove any possibility of peace". But the Veinsormoot wasn't interested, their response was essentially "And?".

  To your second point, to the moot it felt like a sucker punch because as I said, Barcans don't like to communicate, I am not saying it was a sucker punch though, it's just that's how every character out of Barca and Aurvandil see it.  Next, we were told if we remain neutral we get Paisly, what terms did we refuse for the handover? Also two main points to your following paragraph, we are not saying was Machievel did was right or that it warrants cause for a war, what caused the war was the torturing of Machievel which topped off all the other things they did to piss us off. Lady Florence was in no danger of any serious harm, she would have been kicked out of the position of margrave of Paisly and Machievel would have took the position, making it D'hara's. Lady Florence's only serious damage would have been to her pride. Want to argue? Look at every other religious uprising in BM, the peasants did no serious damage to the previous holder of position.

I asked D'Hara to actually become diplomatically neutral (Within reason) for the duration of the war, as a gesture of genuine neutrality because simply declaring "I am going to be neutral" isn't enough. Upon completing these conditions Aurvandil would have no issue handing over Paisly, of course D'Hara could just then break their neutrality, but it will have lost them a lot of diplomatic face and grace with other realms. There was no consequence for D'Hara breaking their sworn neutrality because they never made themselves diplomatically neutral but continued to politically position themselves amongst their allies, who were fully supportive of their move, so they broke their word with no negative diplomatic repercussions whatsoever, which Mendicant stated was the reason why he wouldn't hand Paisly over just on the basis that D'Hara has sworn itself to neutrality. As Rynn was too much of a politician to actually be trusted to hold his word after dicking Aurvandil about one time too many times with their attempts to play both sides of the war for profit.

Also, Rynn did defend what Machiavel said, declaring it perfectly justified and saying D'Hara stood by it. And your other point is purely OOC, IC a mob of religious fanatics attack a largely undefended lady in her estate at the whims of an Ambassador with the intent to drive her out and lynch her, and when this was put forward on the rulers channel D'Hara didn't deny this was the case, but instead defended it as perfectly justified to drag her out kill/rape/beat/lynch Lady Florence. And when you don't deny something, but defend and justify it, that is admitting it did happen but trying to defend why you did it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 21, 2012, 08:29:32 PM
We swore neutrality to Aurvandil saying we would not aid either side of your war, we did not say we would remain neutral to any war in the west for one, and secondly, a nation has to actually act neutral to be neutral. If they aren't being neutral we are not the ones violating neutrality, they are.

I'm quite sure Rynn very clearly said "no interference in the wars in the west" in those exact terms.

And what exactly did the Provincia do to attack D'Hara? Torture Machiavel? Well that comes after Machiavel attacked the Provincia under the guise of diplomatic immunity as an Ambassador, so D'Hara struck first and through a thoroughly reprehensible and dishonourable way.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on November 21, 2012, 08:53:08 PM
And what exactly did the Provincia do to attack D'Hara?

Occupy Paisly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 21, 2012, 09:22:00 PM
Damn anarchists... them and their "Occupy" movements...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on November 21, 2012, 09:43:51 PM
I hate to say it but both sides are somewhat right. D'hara did dick dance all around peace talks and even an alliance with Aurvandil to get Paisly back. As far as I'm concerned D'hara deserved to lose Paisly and it was perfectly legitimate. No agreement was kept and thus Aurvandil was not under any sort of obligation to not take Paisly.  Now D'hara hasn't ceeded claim to Paisly in any of this, and of course a new realm on their claimed territory is going to provoke war. Neither side has a right to whine. Both of you are right and both of you are wrong.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 21, 2012, 10:17:39 PM
Wop nom glaumring style  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 21, 2012, 11:05:47 PM
No, I mean when D'Hara originally declared war starting this whole affair from the beginning. Their declaration of war on the Provincia was a given, D'Hara could never be trusted to uphold their sworn neutrality in the first place.

Sworn neutrality my ass. We made it clear from day one that D'Hara would not tolerate a foreign polity in Paisly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Ehndras on November 21, 2012, 11:11:42 PM
For the record, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about regarding D'haran attitudes because you saw it from Aurvandil's side which obviously was not involved in the internal affairs of D'hara and Terran, Noblesse.

Rynn and D'hara completely went neutral for a significant portion of time, giving absolutely no aid to allied forces, which caused great strife between Alura and Rynn,  and nearly ruined their relationship. Pissed us the hell off, it did. I was ready to write off D'hara at one point. Rynn was very hopeful and dedicated to stay neutral and I very pointedly remember the inconsistencies in Mendicant's actions and words being the cause of strife. Not to mention the supposed Lurian supporters who were working for Mendicant behind the scenes, though that's all speculation and pointless. Hell, Alura has contacts in every nation on the continent, that doesn't mean their entire nations are allies or even friendly with Alura (or Terran for that matter), it just means she has a lot of friends. So, on that token, the Lurian thing is just hearsay and can't really be used against Mendy, sadly. Anyway, the point is, Rynn and D'hara in fact WERE neutral, and as much as I tried I couldn't convince them to do otherwise. If it weren't for certain events and things said by Mendicant, the neutrality would have continued. The Provincia thing though was the final !@#$-you. Even with the neutrality ended, D'hara was still not going to re-join the war until that little insult came to be. It completely changed our plans and really brought the entire coalition together, so thank you for giving Rynn an excuse to marry Alura sooner than planned and bring the armies of D'hara to Paisly.

Also, for the record, Barca is horrible at communicating. Despite being a Marshal and then Ruler, I heard absolutely nothing about peace talks, and when it was finally mentioned (and far too late, might I add!), absolutely no details were given. Peace talks should ALWAYS be occurring - that doesn't mean anything's actually happening. Unless we heard from Barca that there was progress in the peace talks and they asked us to back off, it might as well be another empty Gaza Strip trick. Quite the contrary, Barca ran to us and asked us to get involved so we did, and then bailed on us. I literally sent messages to multiple Barcan nobles who, as Aurvandil was closing in, DECIDED TO LEAVE THE REGION. Who the hell LEAVES the gathered armies of the allied forces defending YOUR territory right as the enemy arrives? And not one of them ever bothered to reply to my messages. I have to admit, that was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in over a decade playing strategy-war games online. Then, Barca's General went MIA, no one would reply to our damn messages, and we figured Barca had collapsed from within. Next thing I know there's Zuma around and they're coming back to life, and I just scratched my head and wondered what the hell happened in the time they were silent. Barca's leader is actually sort of communicating in the Moot now, once in a blue moon, which is literally the most I've ever heard from Barca in the time I've been playing. I really want to trust and believe in Barca but they've not shown me much reason to. Hell, I've more faith in Asylon's ability to remain (in-)consistent right now than I do in Barca, and that's just sad.

A lot of things could have gone differently... A lot of things.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 21, 2012, 11:12:18 PM
Sworn neutrality my ass. We made it clear from day one that D'Hara would not tolerate a foreign polity in Paisly.

Well, here's the question, I think, Chénier: can you be absolutely certain that Rynn never promised something utterly boneheaded to them, and didn't fully inform the realm of it? Because our impression of him in Luria suggests that he might do just that...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 21, 2012, 11:18:32 PM
Well, you interfered in the wars of the west (Breaking your sworn neutrality in the west) and attacked a realm that was under the protection of Aurvandil in instance that it comes under foreign attack, something D'Hara was perfectly aware of when they declared war.

I thought you said they were "neutral".

Make up your mind. D'Hara didn't attack you. It merely reclaimed its city from Quadvrium#2. Florence could have tried to appease us, rather she pissed us off every chance she got. And her realm paid the price for it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:26:58 PM
I remember a time when D'Hara was going to ally with Aurvandiil but Vellos in Terran hated Aurvandiil so much it wasn't allowed to happen. I remember D'Hara was going to be a launch point for Aurvandiil to attack north. Good thing that never happened... But to think D'Hara even entertaining the thought and so recently!  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Ehndras on November 21, 2012, 11:29:01 PM
That's true. I offered her asylum and friendship to see if she was legit, she tried to play me at first saying her and Mendicant are totally at odds but a number of inconsistencies in her story later, she dropped the act and very clearly displayed how Provincia is just another of Mendicant's tactics, which Mendicant then confirmed. I would never alienate someone on the basis of other people's opinions, so I gave it a shot and in the end she proved everyone right.

Also, I WISH there was an option to save messages, like in many of these types of games. It'd be very useful, and I want to save this glimmering gem for all time.

Quote
Letter from Glaumring Apasurain
(Personal message to Alura Aurea)

Magistrate, I would like to apologize to Terran for the previous war and take responsibility for the confusion caused during that time. My kingdom has paid a heavy price for my actions and I hope to turn things around and redeem myself.

Glaumring Apasurain
Viscount of Vakreno Heaps
Priest of Cult of Bloodmoon

D'aaaaaaw! <3 Only took a few RL months to get him to admit it, but still.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:33:27 PM
I decided it was politically expedient to apologize dudes...  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 21, 2012, 11:49:50 PM
Well, here's the question, I think, Chénier: can you be absolutely certain that Rynn never promised something utterly boneheaded to them, and didn't fully inform the realm of it? Because our impression of him in Luria suggests that he might do just that...

Rynn consulted Machiavel much on the issue, because Machiavel was involved in a lot of talks with a lot of people at the time.

Both said the same thing to Mendicant: We'll stay neutral in the Western war, but we expect to get Paisly back, and would not tolerate a realm there.

But Mendicant decided to promise us Paisly in exchange for peace, and then changed his mind and created a puppet there instead, because suddenly, D'Hara wasn't worthy of trust.

Just like he had suddenly decided that Barca wasn't a legitimate realm anymore. Or that suddenly the treaty of Evanburg didn't mean anything anymore. Or that suddenly, D'Hara's neutrality towards Aurvandil isn't neutrality anymore.

But clearly, the Chevaliers are the shining examples of honour. You can totally trust them to respect anything they say.

D'Hara offered very simple terms: give Paisly back, and it won't be used in the war. Mendicant first agreed, then changed his mind. D'Hara has yet to break their neutrality towards Aurvandil, they just did what they always said they would, for reasons purely of their own (claims to the region and Florence's aggravating attitude).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 21, 2012, 11:56:55 PM
I remember a time when D'Hara was going to ally with Aurvandiil but Vellos in Terran hated Aurvandiil so much it wasn't allowed to happen. I remember D'Hara was going to be a launch point for Aurvandiil to attack north. Good thing that never happened... But to think D'Hara even entertaining the thought and so recently!  ::)

Yes, because you are clearly the #1 source to understand what D'Hara said and what's going on in D'Hara.

What goes on in D'Hara and the 'moot isn't some kind of simple dichotomy as you present it. All of your points are either misleading or outright false.

Had D'Hara wanted to ally with Aurvandil, it would have done so. Terran has no authority to tell us otherwise. As for "attack north", change "north" for "Kabrinskia", and put it in context of Kabrinskian aggressions, then water it down a bunch, and maybe you'll get a picture that's somewhat close to what happened.

D'Hara's strategy via Aurvandil was always to pacify via friendship. Aurvandil was a mighty erratic realm that'd we would have rather seen attack others than ourselves. That doesn't mean we wanted to go attack others with them, much less ally them. The only time some people proposed an alliance was to get rid of Madina, and that was just a few people who merely brought the idea up without ever insisting on it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 12:07:45 AM
Yes, because you are clearly the #1 source to understand what D'Hara said and what's going on in D'Hara.

What goes on in D'Hara and the 'moot isn't some kind of simple dichotomy as you present it. All of your points are either misleading or outright false.

Had D'Hara wanted to ally with Aurvandil, it would have done so. Terran has no authority to tell us otherwise. As for "attack north", change "north" for "Kabrinskia", and put it in context of Kabrinskian aggressions, then water it down a bunch, and maybe you'll get a picture that's somewhat close to what happened.

D'Hara's strategy via Aurvandil was always to pacify via friendship. Aurvandil was a mighty erratic realm that'd we would have rather seen attack others than ourselves. That doesn't mean we wanted to go attack others with them, much less ally them. The only time some people proposed an alliance was to get rid of Madina, and that was just a few people who merely brought the idea up without ever insisting on it.


Oh Chenier always tonne of convenient ways out... You silver-tongued devil you
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 22, 2012, 12:21:44 AM

Oh Chenier always tonne of convenient ways out... You silver-tongued devil you

Funny how that works, that everyone who disagrees with you always seems to have a "tonne of convenient ways out" of the webs you attempt to spin with your words.

Funny, like how those webs tend to end up looking like rat's nests or cat's cradles rather than resembling anything particularly...web-like.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 12:30:06 AM
Who are you anyways? His alt account?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on November 22, 2012, 12:32:26 AM
Who are you anyways? His alt account?

Glaumring, the very fact that Chénier and I agree that you're nuts should tell you something. Assuming you paid enough attention to know anything about either of us.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 12:33:39 AM
Your opinion of me means jack !@#$.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 22, 2012, 12:59:51 AM
Your opinion of me means jack !@#$.

It is really beyond me why you keep coming back to these threads and keep dictating what others think.

I mean, Terran leaders explain their stances, and you dismiss it. I explain Machiavel's stance, or D'Hara's in general, and you dismiss it. You then claim that reasons were used or things were said in forums you have no access to. And it isn't even due to leaks... If there are leaks, either they are pretty unreliable, or you incorrectly understand what is given to you.

The 'moot is a complex organisation. I don't think anyone outside of it can really grasp what goes on inside, how things evolve and why they evolve so.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
I used to rule a kingdom Chenier, we used to talk all the time.. All of these things we spoke of together ingame, when we used to be friends of course.

I remember many things and I merely point out after reading many things in this thread that you are a shifty one, your position shifts like the wind when it comes down to it. You shifted on Asylon, on Terran , on Aurvandiil... The only time D'Hara has actually done anything for any of its allies is when it is actually in need of a city returned.

Shifty opportunist...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 22, 2012, 02:34:36 AM
I used to rule a kingdom Chenier, we used to talk all the time.. All of these things we spoke of together ingame, when we used to be friends of course.

I remember many things and I merely point out after reading many things in this thread that you are a shifty one, your position shifts like the wind when it comes down to it. You shifted on Asylon, on Terran , on Aurvandiil... The only time D'Hara has actually done anything for any of its allies is when it is actually in need of a city returned.

Shifty opportunist...

Machiavel is pragmatic. He owes his allegiance to D'Hara, nothing else. However, he also does value his engagements. Which is why he makes sure to offer as little solid promises as possible, and often speaks as vaguely as he can.

As for shifting on Terran, ask Vellos if he thinks D'Hara failed them. He'd be the best one to say, not you. And Aurvandil... they attacked our federated ally, not the other way around. Finally, for Asylon, we only had a defensive agreement. Machiavel would have never supported any offensive campaign against Kabrinskia, which he viewed as making D'Hara vulnerable to Lurian sneak attacks.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 02:48:29 AM
Machiavel is pragmatic. He owes his allegiance to D'Hara, nothing else. However, he also does value his engagements. Which is why he makes sure to offer as little solid promises as possible, and often speaks as vaguely as he can.

As for shifting on Terran, ask Vellos if he thinks D'Hara failed them. He'd be the best one to say, not you. And Aurvandil... they attacked our federated ally, not the other way around. Finally, for Asylon, we only had a defensive agreement. Machiavel would have never supported any offensive campaign against Kabrinskia, which he viewed as making D'Hara vulnerable to Lurian sneak attacks.

Fair enough, I'm not going to argue all day about your/our faults. I merely point out that everyone on Dwilight has dirty hands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on November 22, 2012, 03:40:37 AM
Yes, but everyone else doesn't dictate what others think of them. Nor do they reject actual facts and keep clinging on to the idyllic world wherein their opinions are the only things that matter.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 22, 2012, 03:44:05 AM
Well, I've gone through the estate names, the RC names, and the region description. I think there isn't any more of the Florentine propaganda left.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 03:45:34 AM
Yes, but everyone else doesn't dictate what others think of them. Nor do they reject actual facts and keep clinging on to the idyllic world wherein their opinions are the only things that matter.

The pot calling the kettle black... You can climb back into your hole now.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 22, 2012, 01:08:19 PM
So Aurvandil's going to break its neutrality now, is it?

Hillareous how they swear the Florentine squatters are a separate entity, and then are unhappy when a neutral realm settles its feud with them.

Now of course, there's gonna be some nonsense spouting about attempts to rape Florence and whatever. Aurvandil likes to decide what others do for them. I'm thinking we should start RPing how the Aurvandilian forces act ourselves. I'm assuming they probably wear fur speedos and fight with pointed sticks.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 02:31:40 PM
You would be stealing the elite fighting uniforms of Asylon if you did that...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 05:53:59 PM
Sworn neutrality my ass. We made it clear from day one that D'Hara would not tolerate a foreign polity in Paisly.

Well, you then declared neutrality, so do I believe the thing you said first, or said last? You can never know which thing to believe from the Veinsormoot when they contradict their previous stances. You put a lot of emphasis on the "We absolutely will be neutral, we swear it" so I was inclined to you know, take you on your word.

For the record, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about regarding D'haran attitudes because you saw it from Aurvandil's side which obviously was not involved in the internal affairs of D'hara and Terran, Noblesse.

Rynn and D'hara completely went neutral for a significant portion of time, giving absolutely no aid to allied forces, which caused great strife between Alura and Rynn,  and nearly ruined their relationship. Pissed us the hell off, it did. I was ready to write off D'hara at one point. Rynn was very hopeful and dedicated to stay neutral and I very pointedly remember the inconsistencies in Mendicant's actions and words being the cause of strife. Not to mention the supposed Lurian supporters who were working for Mendicant behind the scenes, though that's all speculation and pointless. Hell, Alura has contacts in every nation on the continent, that doesn't mean their entire nations are allies or even friendly with Alura (or Terran for that matter), it just means she has a lot of friends. So, on that token, the Lurian thing is just hearsay and can't really be used against Mendy, sadly. Anyway, the point is, Rynn and D'hara in fact WERE neutral, and as much as I tried I couldn't convince them to do otherwise. If it weren't for certain events and things said by Mendicant, the neutrality would have continued. The Provincia thing though was the final !@#$-you. Even with the neutrality ended, D'hara was still not going to re-join the war until that little insult came to be. It completely changed our plans and really brought the entire coalition together, so thank you for giving Rynn an excuse to marry Alura sooner than planned and bring the armies of D'hara to Paisly.

Also, for the record, Barca is horrible at communicating. Despite being a Marshal and then Ruler, I heard absolutely nothing about peace talks, and when it was finally mentioned (and far too late, might I add!), absolutely no details were given. Peace talks should ALWAYS be occurring - that doesn't mean anything's actually happening. Unless we heard from Barca that there was progress in the peace talks and they asked us to back off, it might as well be another empty Gaza Strip trick. Quite the contrary, Barca ran to us and asked us to get involved so we did, and then bailed on us. I literally sent messages to multiple Barcan nobles who, as Aurvandil was closing in, DECIDED TO LEAVE THE REGION. Who the hell LEAVES the gathered armies of the allied forces defending YOUR territory right as the enemy arrives? And not one of them ever bothered to reply to my messages. I have to admit, that was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in over a decade playing strategy-war games online. Then, Barca's General went MIA, no one would reply to our damn messages, and we figured Barca had collapsed from within. Next thing I know there's Zuma around and they're coming back to life, and I just scratched my head and wondered what the hell happened in the time they were silent. Barca's leader is actually sort of communicating in the Moot now, once in a blue moon, which is literally the most I've ever heard from Barca in the time I've been playing. I really want to trust and believe in Barca but they've not shown me much reason to. Hell, I've more faith in Asylon's ability to remain (in-)consistent right now than I do in Barca, and that's just sad.

A lot of things could have gone differently... A lot of things.

Yes I've been quite candid about how my opinions are just that, opinions built upon my perception from here in Aurvandil and I've even said on this thread that my perception is likely to be incorrect but I won't know that unless I'm corrected. But anyway.

And it's hard for Mendicant to be consistent in his strategy and palns when he's getting screwed over and told different things by different people all the time with most of them trying to be politicians and playing him, with a constantly changing diplomatic and war front.

As for Barca, understandable they were hideous to try and talk to in diplomacy, which is what fuelled the invasion, perhaps they'd be more inclined to pay attention to Mendicant and put the effort in when they were given the impetus, a la war. Interesting that Barca asked you to get involved when Suffete Brackern was trumpeting to Mendicant how he agreed this was a duel and one easily resolvable between our two realms with no need for foreign interference whatsoever, and when you did involved made it quite clearly sound as if you forced it on Barca and he had no choice because Barca is just a duchy of the Moot (My way of describing it).

I thought you said they were "neutral".

Make up your mind. D'Hara didn't attack you. It merely reclaimed its city from Quadvrium#2. Florence could have tried to appease us, rather she pissed us off every chance she got. And her realm paid the price for it.

They are neutral, but they are under the diplomatic paradigm of "If Aurvandil attacks Terran, they will support Terran, if Terran attacks Aurvandil through their lands, they will support Aurvandil, if they are attacked by the Moot, then Aurvandil will defend them". Closest thing to a balanced neutrality when Terran could otherwise just walk in and attack them on the basis of "Well Aurvandil will be attacking through here anyway", so we made it perfectly clear that we won't be using the Provincia as an ally, or route to attack, ever.

And you call them Quadrivium 2 ... as if that's a thing or means something.

Rynn consulted Machiavel much on the issue, because Machiavel was involved in a lot of talks with a lot of people at the time.

Both said the same thing to Mendicant: We'll stay neutral in the Western war, but we expect to get Paisly back, and would not tolerate a realm there.

But Mendicant decided to promise us Paisly in exchange for peace, and then changed his mind and created a puppet there instead, because suddenly, D'Hara wasn't worthy of trust.

Just like he had suddenly decided that Barca wasn't a legitimate realm anymore. Or that suddenly the treaty of Evanburg didn't mean anything anymore. Or that suddenly, D'Hara's neutrality towards Aurvandil isn't neutrality anymore.

But clearly, the Chevaliers are the shining examples of honour. You can totally trust them to respect anything they say.

D'Hara offered very simple terms: give Paisly back, and it won't be used in the war. Mendicant first agreed, then changed his mind. D'Hara has yet to break their neutrality towards Aurvandil, they just did what they always said they would, for reasons purely of their own (claims to the region and Florence's aggravating attitude).


Yes, well I think you'll find Aurvandil retracted the offer of Paisly for peace when Rynn refused it. There is a reason why we went from demanding nothing, to demanding something but negotiable, to then demanding something non negotiable, and that's because D'Hara consistently refused so we upped the stakes and made it clear we won't be diddled because D'Hara thinks we're a soft touch in diplomacy, which is the attitude you seem to have in talks with us. You think you can play us and manipulate us and we'll just roll over in talks, and we got sick of it. D'Hara isn't worthy of trust because its a realm of manipulative politicians who repeatedly tried to play both sides of the war to get the most out of it. It was only weeks ago Rynn was asking Mendicant to help him leave the Moot then wage war on S.A. and then when Mendicant offers his support, Rynn  then shows all of that to S.A. as proof of Aurvandilan duplicity and aggression when S.A. can offer him a better deal. He did the same with the split from the Veinsormoot as well. You aren't worthy of trust because you'll screw us over five ways to Sunday if you're given half a chance and think you stand to gain from it.

Barca isn't a legitimate realm anymore, they're farmers living under the whim of Reine Démoniaque Haktoo, they're a non state and they lost all legitimacy in doing so. Just a more servile people under the reign of the Zuma Coalition.

So Aurvandil's going to break its neutrality now, is it?

Hillareous how they swear the Florentine squatters are a separate entity, and then are unhappy when a neutral realm settles its feud with them.

Now of course, there's gonna be some nonsense spouting about attempts to rape Florence and whatever. Aurvandil likes to decide what others do for them. I'm thinking we should start RPing how the Aurvandilian forces act ourselves. I'm assuming they probably wear fur speedos and fight with pointed sticks.

Hilarious how but hurt you sound over it. You sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. D'Hara can't act like the good guy middle man when they just aren't, they've tried to hard to !@#$ over Aurvandil whilst pretending to be our friends. Broken their word to many times. At this point, the position has reversed, Aurvandil thinks much higher of Terran now than D'Hara, when it had always since our founding been the other way around by a massive margin. Which is one hell of an achievement, considering how determined Mendicant was to hold D'Hara in a high esteem and consider them a worthy friend.

Aurvandil is going to break the ceasefire, yes, but I never declared any neutrality. I did however declare "I won't enter the lands of the Provincia nor ever use them, but if you attack the Provincia, then I will fight you". It was however D'Hara who swore not to get involved in wars in the west... then a week later did. 'Cause the sworn oath and word of D'Haran is only good for about a weeks guarantee?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on November 22, 2012, 06:02:46 PM
And it's hard for Mendicant all rulers in history to be consistent in his strategy and palns when he's getting screwed over and told different things by different people all the time with most of them trying to be politicians and playing him, with a constantly changing diplomatic and war front.

In other words, all the time. Otherwise there would never be any war, wouldn't there?

I mean, the ruler of a country acting like he's a politician! Who has heard that before? Preposterous!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 06:05:31 PM
In other words, all the time. Otherwise there would never be any war, wouldn't there?

I mean, the ruler of a country acting like he's a politician! Who has heard that before? Preposterous!

Mendicant has done a good job of making it illegal to be a politician in Aurvandil.

And of course there would be war, it would just be unseemly to live in peace, unbecoming of a people.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 06:28:28 PM
Everything Mendicant said about D'Hara and being screwed six ways side ways by a kingdom that is shifty sounds like I myself said it. Secondly enjoyed his statement about inconsistancy, sounds like D'Hara has bit off more than it can chew and others will realize the true nature of its character. And people wonder why I was complaining, now Mendicant is sounding exactly like me... Could it be I wasnt wrong after all? I will be vindicated!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 06:37:41 PM
Everything Mendicant said about D'Hara and being screwed six ways side ways by a kingdom that is shifty sounds like I myself said it. Secondly enjoyed his statement about inconsistancy, sounds like D'Hara has bit off more than it can chew and others will realize the true nature of its character. And people wonder why I was complaining, now Mendicant is sounding exactly like me... Could it be I wasnt wrong after all? I will be vindicated!

Well to be fair to D'Hara, I think your complaints and experiences were with a different administration ruling D'Hara, I never had any problems with the old Administrations under Gornak and Machiavel (If you discount the whole... war declaring thing, but that's bridge under the water [Edit: Water under the bridge >. >]).

And D'Hara have been a bit too impetuous and tried to bite of too much, it's why others realm have realised not to trust the word of D'Hara because there isn't "anything true whatsoever" in their dealings, as it was put to Mendicant. As I keep saying, people have sort of noticed their attempts to play both sides of the war and then pander to the neutrals and it hasn't done them any favours. The good name of D'Hara is pretty much gone.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 06:57:13 PM
It is exactly how I felt about the whole Moot for a long time.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 22, 2012, 06:58:51 PM
Quote
As for Barca, understandable they were hideous to try and talk to in diplomacy, which is what fuelled the invasion, perhaps they'd be more inclined to pay attention to Mendicant and put the effort in when they were given the impetus, a la war. Interesting that Barca asked you to get involved when Suffete Brackern was trumpeting to Mendicant how he agreed this was a duel and one easily resolvable between our two realms with no need for foreign interference whatsoever, and when you did involved made it quite clearly sound as if you forced it on Barca and he had no choice because Barca is just a duchy of the Moot (My way of describing it).

Quote
Barca isn't a legitimate realm anymore, they're farmers living under the whim of Reine Démoniaque Haktoo, they're a non state and they lost all legitimacy in doing so. Just a more servile people under the reign of the Zuma Coalition.

I guess it's quite easy to be independent in a realm with more than the triple of nobles, and a very good proportion of them with quite a lot of experience and wealth to sustain a large troop. I've been playing for little time, and if Aurvandil had hard times, it had to be a long time ago.

When you've got the guarantee of a huge army at your back, you don't have to do politics. You just have to decide which could be a good pretext to invade a region whether it's an active part of an enemy realm, or it has gone rogue for some reason. I can understand it of course, it has to be just awesome. Moreover, it's interesting to see you talk about "being screwed" by constant changes in the diplomatic relations with other realms. Does it really affect Aurvandilians somehow? A king who can move at least 20 nobles whenever he wants, each one of them with at least 700CS has to be difficult to screw, doesn't he?

So you think Barcans are peasants of the Zuma. Yeah, it would be probably much nicer just to blow us from the map to put a good bunch of Fiorenze or just expand your realm; it is surprising to see it bothers you.

Justify your invasions as you like, but please don't show Aurvandil as a victim of the inconsistent politics of other realms. For your fortune, I think you can't be a victim of anyone, and you will be a probable choice for new members (everybody like to fight battles with an overwhelming numeric superiority, right?).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 22, 2012, 07:05:06 PM
While it can be fun to be on the side with the overwhelming numerical advantage (consistently losing a war sucks, after all), some of the funnest times I had in BattleMaster were while playing the smaller, valiant army fighting for survival against multiple, larger invaders. Winning may not be *everything*, but all in all, it's better than losing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 22, 2012, 07:13:35 PM
While it can be fun to be on the side with the overwhelming numerical advantage (consistently losing a war sucks, after all), some of the funnest times I had in BattleMaster were while playing the smaller, valiant army fighting for survival against multiple, larger invaders. Winning may not be *everything*, but all in all, it's better than losing.
Losing is fun because you have to try hard and get all your nobles working together and such to have a chance at winning. So basically, I would say losing is fun because of the challenge of losing, and the unity because your fighting for your realm's survival.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 22, 2012, 07:21:03 PM
My character hasn't participated yet in a very disadvantaged battle, but I guess it's a matter of time. I'm not complaining anyway, I chose Barca because I was caught by its background, and personally I think it's nice to join a realm in which you can actually mean something for the rest of your realm mates. Of course it has to be funny as hell aswell being told to join a huge army and crash your enemy, as you say, Indirik, winning battles is better than losing.

What I disliked in those posts is that supposed feeling of being upset by the rulers of a realm as D'Hara for their inconsistency. Of course, a little realm in war with Luria-Supernova, and whose one of its allies is a "farmers of the Zuma and servile people" realm, has to be quite pragmatic. If Aurvandil would have to reconsider some decision in its politics, I would think Mendicant is starting to get old.

I don't know which was the problem between Glaumring and Chénier, but seems like the first one is willing to play Aurvandil chorus while is a member of the Veinsormoot guild.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on November 22, 2012, 07:21:34 PM
Losing is fun because you have to try hard and get all your nobles working together and such to have a chance at winning. So basically, I would say losing is fun because of the challenge of losing, and the unity because your fighting for your realm's survival.

It's all true.

also, Aurvandil, please be a doll and attack *after* Thanksgiving  :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 22, 2012, 07:23:29 PM
It's all true.

also, Aurvandil, please be a doll and attack *after* Thanksgiving  :P
Now only if I can get you to agree with me about Egamma.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 07:27:42 PM
When our closest allies abandoned us, when we fought against Astrum, Corsanctum, Kabrinskia and even a bit of Morek and Iashular only Aurvandiil stood up for us. I didnt want bad relations with Terran or D'Hara they found it convenient to throw us under the bus and did so when time served them right. The new leadershio of D'Hara and Terran has improved by lightyears and things are no longer like they were, I just want to make sure everyone knows Vellos and Chenier are shifty.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 22, 2012, 07:33:21 PM
As much as you claim to not care what anyone else thinks, you sure do spend a lot of time trying to convince them that you're really the good guy, and that it really is everyone else's fault.

At this point, everyone has already made up their minds. You're not going to convince anyone else to switch sides. Why don't we all just give it a rest? Go have some turkey. Or you can come over to my place. I'm making some homemade pumpkin pie today. Yumm-O! :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bael on November 22, 2012, 07:39:04 PM
As much as you claim to not care what anyone else thinks, you sure do spend a lot of time trying to convince them that you're really the good guy, and that it really is everyone else's fault.

At this point, everyone has already made up their minds. You're not going to convince anyone else to switch sides. Why don't we all just give it a rest? Go have some turkey. Or you can come over to my place. I'm making some homemade pumpkin pie today. Yumm-O! :P

Directions? Google map co-ordinates?  :D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 22, 2012, 07:42:59 PM
I understand your reasons Glaumring. It has to be really disappointing to be abandoned by your allies in hard times, if that's what really happened. But just think that if they helped Asylon it maybe was because they weren't menaced by anyone else. They've got their Falkirkian Shield-State and Barca in their borders. If the Zuma were frustrating their attempts for a quick and clean conquest over Barca, they could look for some foreigner wars to participate. Maybe D'Hara was under direct menace of Luria in that time, I don't know. But if they were, I can understand they couldn't lose a single man in any other war apart from their survival.

That's why I said a little realm has to be pragmatic. I'm not justifying D'Hara's decisions about you, but I wouldn't see Aurvandil as the altruist ally that it seems they become for you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2012, 07:48:18 PM
I understand your reasons Glaumring. It has to be really disappointing to be abandoned by your allies in hard times, if that's what really happened. But just think that if they helped Asylon it maybe was because they weren't menaced by anyone else. They've got their Falkirkian Shield-State and Barca in their borders. If the Zuma were frustrating their attempts for a quick and clean conquest over Barca, they could look for some foreigner wars to participate. Maybe D'Hara was under direct menace of Luria in that time, I don't know. But if they were, I can understand they couldn't lose a single man in any other war apart from their survival.

That's why I said a little realm has to be pragmatic. I'm not justifying D'Hara's decisions about you, but I wouldn't see Aurvandil as the altruist ally that it seems they become for you.

Thank you for your understanding. All I want is for people to realize nothing is one sided in war and diplomacy and I dont like how people have decided to push me under the bus just to get rid of me politically. I wont go out like that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 08:05:45 PM
They've got their Falkirkian Shield-State

Our what now?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 22, 2012, 08:11:28 PM
A consistent ally which ensures your eastern front and allows you to focus in your northern borders. I think shield could be an accurate word in this case.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 08:12:07 PM
I guess it's quite easy to be independent in a realm with more than the triple of nobles, and a very good proportion of them with quite a lot of experience and wealth to sustain a large troop. I've been playing for little time, and if Aurvandil had hard times, it had to be a long time ago.

When you've got the guarantee of a huge army at your back, you don't have to do politics. You just have to decide which could be a good pretext to invade a region whether it's an active part of an enemy realm, or it has gone rogue for some reason. I can understand it of course, it has to be just awesome. Moreover, it's interesting to see you talk about "being screwed" by constant changes in the diplomatic relations with other realms. Does it really affect Aurvandilians somehow? A king who can move at least 20 nobles whenever he wants, each one of them with at least 700CS has to be difficult to screw, doesn't he?

So you think Barcans are peasants of the Zuma. Yeah, it would be probably much nicer just to blow us from the map to put a good bunch of Fiorenze or just expand your realm; it is surprising to see it bothers you.

Justify your invasions as you like, but please don't show Aurvandil as a victim of the inconsistent politics of other realms. For your fortune, I think you can't be a victim of anyone, and you will be a probable choice for new members (everybody like to fight battles with an overwhelming numeric superiority, right?).

The irony of you arguing Aurvandil hasn't had a hard time in a long is overpowering. Considering Evanburg, Gallaecia, Celtiberia, Zerujil and Candiels all recently revolted, well the Candiels revolt was put down.  As it turns out, Aurvandil is surprisingly easy to screw into ruin just by war declarations which is the state we're currently in internally, we have the best army on Dwilight and quite arguably the game, but out enemies found a way to make that irrelevant and force us to bend over.

And I rather like having Barca on our border, it's like having a desert, it's easy to ignore. Which suits Aurvandil just fine, so long as Barca doesn't make us notice them, we won't and we'll leave them be.

And your argument of our wealth and power makes it impossible for us to be victimised in anyway is just silly.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 08:13:56 PM
A consistent ally which ensures your eastern front and allows you to focus in your northern borders. I think shield could be an accurate word in this case.

Not an ally.
Doesn't ensure our eastern front.
Doesn't shield us in the slightest.

In fact, were the Grand Duchy not determined to invade Falkirk we'd have to look to our east, the Falkirkian's have an declared hatred of Monarchy and that makes them natural enemies to Aurvandil, they especially hate the Aurvandilan form of rulership, which is especially juxtaposed to their own Kommandantry. Really, Falkirk and Aurvandil at opposite ends on a lot of things.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 22, 2012, 08:17:45 PM
Thank you for your understanding. All I want is for people to realize nothing is one sided in war and diplomacy and I dont like how people have decided to push me under the bus just to get rid of me politically. I wont go out like that.
No one pushed you under the bus, you jumped in front of the bus and your mad we didn't run out there. The alliances made were for defense, not you escalate a war and we have to help you because you f'ed it up. But enough of that, it's long over, and it's thanksgiving so I am with Bael on wondering where that homemade pumpkin pie is. Have a happy thanksgiving everyone!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 08:19:54 PM
It's all true.

also, Aurvandil, please be a doll and attack *after* Thanksgiving  :P

Such a shame Aurvandil is ruled by an Englishman, eh?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 22, 2012, 08:33:23 PM
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As it turns out, Aurvandil is surprisingly easy to screw into ruin just by war declarations which is the state we're currently in internally, we have the best army on Dwilight and quite arguably the game, but out enemies found a way to make that irrelevant.

I can't imagine a non-violent way to make "the best army on Dwilight and quite arguably the game". Maybe with roleplay such as that one about a lady being raped, and beaten?

Quote
And I rather like having Barca on our border, it's like having a desert, it's easy to ignore. Which suits Aurvandil just fine, so long as Barca doesn't make us notice them, we won't and we'll leave them be.

Did I say anything to make you think Barca is in my opinion a dangerous opponent to Aurvandil? I think you were complaining about the relations between Barca and the Zuma Coalition.

Quote
In fact, were the Grand Duchy not determined to invade Falkirk we'd have to look to our east, the Falkirkian's have an declared hatred of Monarchy and that makes them natural enemies to Aurvandil, they especially hate the Aurvandilan form of rulership, which is especially juxtaposed to their own Kommandantry. Really, Falkirk and Aurvandil at opposite ends on a lot of things.

Maybe the information about the diplomatic relations in the game should be renewed, according what you say.

Quote
And your argument of our wealth and power makes it impossible for us to be victimised in anyway is just silly.

Please, if you entertain us with some endless posts, read at least the replies. My "argument" was a sceptic comment about that way Aurvandil feels apparently upset constantly by some "voluble" politics. I didn't mean to make you feel like victims of your power and wealth, I was asking you to not show yourselves like such victims.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 22, 2012, 08:35:37 PM
... and it's thanksgiving so I am with Bael on wondering where that homemade pumpkin pie is. Have a happy thanksgiving everyone!
I'm not promising it will be any good, mind you. Despite all the turkeys I've cooked, this is my first pumpkin pie from scratch.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 08:37:18 PM
I can't imagine a non-violent way to make "the best army on Dwilight and quite arguably the game". Maybe with roleplay such as that one about a lady being raped, and beaten?

Not quite sure what you're trying to say there.

Did I say anything to make you think Barca is in my opinion a dangerous opponent to Aurvandil? I think you were complaining about the relations between Barca and the Zuma Coalition.

Indeed, though the fact Haktoo tried to cockblock Aurvandil's army upon Barcan request is grudge that'll last a long time, Mendicant doesn't take well to people trying to dictate to him what he can or can't do.

Maybe the information about the diplomatic relations in the game should be renewed, according what you say.

Oh, well by all accounts Barca and Aurvandil should be at peace, but for Aurvandil to sign peace with Barca we would have to acknowledge them as something more than a rogue non-state.

Please, if you entertain us with some endless posts, read at least the replies. My "argument" was a sceptic comment about that way Aurvandil feels apparently upset constantly by some "voluble" politics. I didn't mean to make you feel like victims of your power and wealth, I was asking you to not show yourselves like such victims.

No, we're just annoyed at being played in politics.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on November 22, 2012, 08:37:38 PM
Such a shame Aurvandil is ruled by an Englishman, eh?

Better than having a frog run it into the ground ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 08:38:47 PM
Better than having a frog run it into the ground ;)

We're worse than that.

We're Englishmen pretending to be French.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 22, 2012, 08:57:48 PM
Quote
Not quite sure what you're trying to say there.

Sorry, I didn't write correctly. I can't imagine a non-violent way to screw into ruin by war declarations "the best army on Dwilight and quite arguably the game". Maybe with roleplay such as that one about a lady being raped and beaten? Anyway, you should be able to put order at home with a bunch of nobles while you take some others to raid other regions.

Woah. The Dev Team has to be licking tropical frogs if they allowed a "rogue non-state" to summon some nasty demons to try to dictate Your Majesty what he can or can't do! Well, at least for that period maybe you could feel something similar to some other realms in Dwilight ;D  Anyway I was talking about your Falkirkian affairs. A pitty, though; you seemed such a nice couple...

Quote
No, we're just annoyed at being played in politics.

Big boys tricked by the Moot? The world is going crazy... Problem solved anyway, right?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 09:08:27 PM
Sorry, I didn't write correctly. I can't imagine a non-violent way to screw into ruin by war declarations "the best army on Dwilight and quite arguably the game". Maybe with roleplay such as that one about a lady being raped and beaten? Anyway, you should be able to put order at home with a bunch of nobles while you take some others to raid other regions.

War protests, brought Aurvandil to its knees in a day. We had to take the entire time since the Provincia's founding to now just to stabilise, and even then we've just lost another two regions to revolt. And Aurvandil doesn't really do raids, it goes against the way we conduct war. We march with as fuller force as possible and look to fight the enemy in battle. We rarely march without the full panoply of our four armies arrayed and rarely with the intent for anything but victory against the enemy in battle. We seek the glory of battle more than we seek the path to victory. And when we do defeat our enemies, we never sack or raid, the only time we have done that was the destruction of Madina, otherwise as with regions like Rettleville we wiped out all fortifications, take the gold and leave.

Woah. The Dev Team has to be licking tropical frogs if they allowed a "rogue non-state" to summon some nasty demons to try to dictate Your Majesty what he can or can't do! Well, at least for that period maybe you could feel something similar to some other realms in Dwilight ;D  Anyway I was talking about your Falkirkian affairs. A pitty, though; you seemed such a nice couple...

Big boys tricked by the Moot? The world is going crazy... Problem solved anyway, right?

It's a GM who runs the Zuma, not a Dev as far as I am aware.

And Falkirk and Aurvandil are a good couple. As Aurvandil is master at reconciling seemingly contradictory beliefs and notions and making them work, I am sure we can form an excellent partnership with Falkirk, one that will more than likely involve us frequently warring however. Part of the reason why I gave the Averothoi Madina as the notion that they'd shape up to be a worthy opponent in future wars based upon their defence of Valkyrja and their epically successful campaign against Astrum. An enemy worthy of defeating, in Mendicant's eyes.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on November 22, 2012, 09:27:27 PM
We're worse than that.

We're Englishmen pretending to be French.

Goddamns trying to ribbit. Now I have seen everything.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 22, 2012, 09:40:44 PM
Quote
It's a GM who runs the Zuma, not a Dev as far as I am aware.

I didn't know that, my fault.

Quote
War protests, brought Aurvandil to its knees in a day. We had to take the entire time since the Provincia's founding to now just to stabilise, and even then we've just lost another two regions to revolt. And Aurvandil doesn't really do raids, it goes against the way we conduct war. We march with as fuller force as possible and look to fight the enemy in battle. We rarely march without the full panoply of our four armies arrayed and rarely with the intent for anything but victory against the enemy in battle. We seek the glory of battle more than we seek the path to victory. And when we do defeat our enemies, we never sack or raid, the only time we have done that was the destruction of Madina, otherwise as with regions like Rettleville we wiped out all fortifications, take the gold and leave.

Very honourable indeed. But well, maths sometimes help anyway. Looking to fight the enemy in battle in a proportion of 1200 to 250 like the recent battle in Paisland is quite a detail; a huge victory, but a lot of glory on that? Anyway, if you have a huge army and panoply, it would be silly not to use it. But I can understand why you take so long to bring back normality to your revolted lands if you don't like to set battle in a proportion inferior to 5 - 1.

"How to invade lands", page 34, paragraph 2: "If you want to set a Provincia di Fiorenza in enemy territory, don't burn raid it after blowing them away"  ;D  I'm just kidding.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 22, 2012, 09:45:34 PM
I didn't know that, my fault.

Very honourable indeed. But well, maths sometimes help anyway. Looking to fight the enemy in battle in a proportion of 1200 to 250 like the recent battle in Paisland is quite a detail; a huge victory, but a lot of glory on that? Anyway, if you have a huge army and panoply, it would be silly not to use it. But I can understand why you take so long to bring back normality to your revolted lands if you don't like to set battle in a proportion inferior to 5 - 1.

"How to invade lands", page 34, paragraph 2: "If you want to set a Provincia di Fiorenza in enemy territory, don't burn raid it after blowing them away"  ;D  I'm just kidding.

I am aware of the issues in that. Though not so long ago Terran was heading an allied army of 40,000 C.S.

Thus, why I offered Suffete Brackern the chance to fight a battle where Aurvandil caps its number of soldiers and combat strength to a limit of his choosing. So as to give both Barca and Aurvandil the chance to have a fair battle to see which soldiery is superior, this was the cornerstone of our plans for peace, so Barca could accept peace with honour and not be seen as a defeated, whipped foe.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 22, 2012, 11:01:22 PM
Quote
I am aware of the issues in that. Though not so long ago Terran was heading an allied army of 40,000 C.S.

Those should have been good times. I wonder why didn't they head south.

You have to understand why Lord Brackern is a little "stubborn" about this matter. Basically you're offering him some kind of consolation candy. By allowing him to decide the size of the belligerent armies you think you are giving an honourable chance to Barca to finish this war. If Barca loses, I assume you would theoretically stop the hostilities (I guess setting some favourable to Aurvandil neutrality rules, like those we've seen in the D'Haran case), and wouldn't try to invade our lands.

If Barca wins, would you sign and respect the "Treaty for expansion to unclaimed lands"? I don't think so. And by your strength you've acquired the right to change your mind whenever you want, and create exceptions to the rules set.

There's no honourable solution for Barca in this offer. Accepting means to be seen as a defeated and impotent nation pledged to the game of Aurvandil. Not accepting means to face what would probably be the invasion and maybe the destruction of all that Barcan nobles have constructed. It could be seen as an easy choice, but please don't talk about honour.

By the way you speak I would say your character is King Mendicant. It's been a nice conversation, NoblesseChevaleresque. It's late, so maybe we read each other tomorrow.

Regards.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 12:30:08 AM
Well to be fair to D'Hara, I think your complaints and experiences were with a different administration ruling D'Hara, I never had any problems with the old Administrations under Gornak and Machiavel (If you discount the whole... war declaring thing, but that's bridge under the water [Edit: Water under the bridge >. >]).

And D'Hara have been a bit too impetuous and tried to bite of too much, it's why others realm have realised not to trust the word of D'Hara because there isn't "anything true whatsoever" in their dealings, as it was put to Mendicant. As I keep saying, people have sort of noticed their attempts to play both sides of the war and then pander to the neutrals and it hasn't done them any favours. The good name of D'Hara is pretty much gone.

You imagine agreements were made when nothing was agreed upon. D'Hara feels no obligation whatsoever to uphold something that was proposed but never agreed upon. As none should. I'd say Glaumring had the same problem.

If the "good name of D'Hara" is gone, that's quite fine with D'Harans, because they don't care about what Aurvandil thinks of them anymore. Our pride could only stand so much of Mendicant's condescendance.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 12:34:54 AM
Thank you for your understanding. All I want is for people to realize nothing is one sided in war and diplomacy and I dont like how people have decided to push me under the bus just to get rid of me politically. I wont go out like that.

You say D'Hara threw you under the bus, but Machiavel NEVER stated that he would help you in any way should you attack Kabrinskia and Astrum.

As Lychaon guessed, we were too concerned about Luria Nova, and the Lurias in general. You just incorrectly assumed that you could pull D'Hara into a war you'd start. We'd have liked to fight against Kabrinskia, had we not considered it suicide, but we never would have went along against Astrum anyways. And I have no idea what gave you the impression we would.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 23, 2012, 12:55:14 AM
Those should have been good times. I wonder why didn't they head south.

You have to understand why Lord Brackern is a little "stubborn" about this matter. Basically you're offering him some kind of consolation candy. By allowing him to decide the size of the belligerent armies you think you are giving an honourable chance to Barca to finish this war. If Barca loses, I assume you would theoretically stop the hostilities (I guess setting some favourable to Aurvandil neutrality rules, like those we've seen in the D'Haran case), and wouldn't try to invade our lands.

If Barca wins, would you sign and respect the "Treaty for expansion to unclaimed lands"? I don't think so. And by your strength you've acquired the right to change your mind whenever you want, and create exceptions to the rules set.

There's no honourable solution for Barca in this offer. Accepting means to be seen as a defeated and impotent nation pledged to the game of Aurvandil. Not accepting means to face what would probably be the invasion and maybe the destruction of all that Barcan nobles have constructed. It could be seen as an easy choice, but please don't talk about honour.

By the way you speak I would say your character is King Mendicant. It's been a nice conversation, NoblesseChevaleresque. It's late, so maybe we read each other tomorrow.

Regards.

They couldn't do anything because their army revolted from under them due to the extreme distance from the north to the south, a saving grace against the hideous power Sea Travel gave S.A. in any given circumstance.

Don't get me wrong, the hostilities between Barca and Aurvandil had already ended, at least on the Aurvandilan part. I made it clear we had achieved satisfaction in having punished their Ambassador for his actions and having defended our and honour from his slights. The offer to continue hostilities on Barca was so that Barca could seek satisfaction over the quite swift attack on Rettleville. The battle wasn't a means to decide the terms, of which I pretty much already told Barca they are to present what terms they like, it was perfectly in Barca's court to allow them to extract terms they wanted and to gain a peace treaty to their satisfaction, Aurvandil has no interest in dominating, humiliating or reigning over Barca.

You imagine agreements were made when nothing was agreed upon. D'Hara feels no obligation whatsoever to uphold something that was proposed but never agreed upon. As none should. I'd say Glaumring had the same problem.

If the "good name of D'Hara" is gone, that's quite fine with D'Harans, because they don't care about what Aurvandil thinks of them anymore. Our pride could only stand so much of Mendicant's condescendance.

I don't "imagine agreements", I do however take note whenever D'Hara refuses to agree to something.

And I'm sure D'Hara are fine with their reputation, after all it doesn't matter how other people perceive you so long as it is a means to an end, right? So long as Sanguis Astroism will defend you and empower you it doesn't matter what level you lower yourself to so long as you're happy with it. And I wasn't talking about how Aurvandil thinks of you, but rather other realms based on my correspondences with them.

And if you think Mendicant was condescending, then you don't realise the fact D'Hara was utterly beaten in war with Aurvandil standing victorious. As much as Mendicant tried to put you on an even footing, as equals D'Hara wouldn't have it, nor would you accept the fact you fought a war and lost it and still acted as though you had a right for things to go back to the way they were originally, with no consequence so long as you stuck your head in the sand and demanded there be no consequences for your actions.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 23, 2012, 01:01:43 AM
You say D'Hara threw you under the bus, but Machiavel NEVER stated that he would help you in any way should you attack Kabrinskia and Astrum.

As Lychaon guessed, we were too concerned about Luria Nova, and the Lurias in general. You just incorrectly assumed that you could pull D'Hara into a war you'd start. We'd have liked to fight against Kabrinskia, had we not considered it suicide, but we never would have went along against Astrum anyways. And I have no idea what gave you the impression we would.

Interestingly enough our alliance was forged to protect you from Kabrinskian aggression. When it came down to it, right or wrong. You both decided to throw an ally under the bus. Instead we could have stood as one and been stronger now than anytime ever. Shortsighted policies , shortsighted strategy. Asylon went above and beyond the call of duty to take the brunt of the attacks and fight a war both of you combined couldnt even muster an ounce of loyalty, bravery and balls to fight against.

Jesus... Are we still talking about this...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 23, 2012, 01:09:11 AM
Interestingly enough our alliance was forged to protect you from Kabrinskian aggression. When it came down to it, right or wrong. You both decided to throw an ally under the bus. Instead we could have stood as one and been stronger now than anytime ever. Shortsighted policies , shortsighted strategy. Asylon went above and beyond the call of duty to take the brunt of the attacks and fight a war both of you combined couldnt even muster an ounce of loyalty, bravery and balls to fight against.

Jesus... Are we still talking about this...
Yes, we are still talking about this because your thick skull can't understand it. Throw you under a bus implies we got you in trouble with the realms you warred. You started it by your aggression and if we had helped you the moot would be in worse condition than we are now. We would have no SA help and we would have been attacked from Aurvandil while warring them as your war ended while we were fighting which would have meant we would have been screwed. Maybe the war somehow helped your realm even though you are still recovering from it but it sure wouldn't have helped the moot and quit blaming us for the war you extended to a much more extreme way than we ever wanted.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 23, 2012, 01:24:33 AM
Asylon would have protected, provided troops and you wouldnt need foreigners to help you fight a war. We'd have shared the newly conquered Kabrinskian lands, had a large well maintained army and been united , motivated and strong.

Now you have foreigners in your throne room, no help from Asylon, and an army that is suited for monster hunting. The Barcans are smashed, Terran does all the heavy lifting itself and you are now pawns of the north and south. Asylon once had a huge army, vibrant economy cannot help at all.

And this my frustration, even though what I did was wrong in parts at the time it seemed right and the best way to achieve several long term goals if only we cooperated and stood strong. Your view was short sighted, insular and without vision.

You did not trust my vision, I can understand that. One day it will become clear to you how defining the last war was to the moots long term future and you will wish that you had chosen to stand strong in those times instead of division.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 01:28:04 AM
Interestingly enough our alliance was forged to protect you from Kabrinskian aggression. When it came down to it, right or wrong. You both decided to throw an ally under the bus. Instead we could have stood as one and been stronger now than anytime ever. Shortsighted policies , shortsighted strategy. Asylon went above and beyond the call of duty to take the brunt of the attacks and fight a war both of you combined couldnt even muster an ounce of loyalty, bravery and balls to fight against.

Jesus... Are we still talking about this...

Sure, we could have begun a huge war with SA, and gotten backstabbed by the Lurias and Aurvandil. We'd be in such a GREAT position right now. You are right, we totally should have declared war on Astrum. What on earth were we thinking?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 23, 2012, 02:07:22 AM
Damn, that pumpkin pie was good!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 23, 2012, 02:12:30 AM
Damn, that pumpkin pie was good!
I knew you should have gave directions, maybe next year lol.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 23, 2012, 02:15:51 AM
Sure, we could have begun a huge war with SA, and gotten backstabbed by the Lurias and Aurvandil. We'd be in such a GREAT position right now. You are right, we totally should have declared war on Astrum. What on earth were we thinking?

Interesting you say that when Mendicant said to Machiavel he'd support you unconditionally against the Luria's and S.A. exactly during the time when Asylon was war with Kabrinskia.

You should have declared war, Barca would probably never have been invaded by Aurvandil (As we would have been supporting you) and D'Hara would have been saved from its massive collapse from famine with its markets open to Aurvandil during the longest winter.


Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 02:17:06 AM
Interesting you say that when Mendicant said to Machiavel he'd support you unconditionally against the Luria's and S.A. exactly during the time when Asylon was war with Kabrinskia.

You should have declared war, Barca would probably never have been invaded by Aurvandil (As we would have been supporting you) and D'Hara would have been saved from its massive collapse from famine with its markets open to Aurvandil during the longest winter.

Right, because Aurvandil could TOTALLY have prevented foreign armies from hitting us...

Or, lemme think a second... No, absolutely not. Too many realms in reach of D'Hara, offering ourselves as meat shields would be suicide.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 23, 2012, 02:19:31 AM
Right, because Aurvandil could TOTALLY have prevented foreign armies from hitting us...

Or, lemme think a second... No, absolutely not. Too many realms in reach of D'Hara, offering ourselves as meat shields would be suicide.

Oh you mean Aurvandil with its 35kcs mobile army and D'Hara with its four cities, one stronghold and two townslands, all of them with fortifications, plus the D'Haran army. Oh yeah, it would have been impossible to make a competent defence of D'Hara.

And we wouldn't need to defend you if we marched are our armies to war against your enemies, besides which, as you even said yourself realms would think twice about picking a fight with D'Hara so long as the strongest military on the continent was willing to defend them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 23, 2012, 02:33:15 AM
It's an interesting idea, but I doubt it would have worked. The logistics are just all wrong for that kind of thing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 23, 2012, 02:34:26 AM
It's an interesting idea, but I doubt it would have worked. The logistics are just all wrong for that kind of thing.

Well, if D'Hara cannot even raise a competent defence of a large number of fortifications with a quite vast wealth, with large amounts of allied support, then they deserve to fall quite simply.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 02:43:19 AM
Oh you mean Aurvandil with its 35kcs mobile army and D'Hara with its four cities, one stronghold and two townslands, all of them with fortifications, plus the D'Haran army. Oh yeah, it would have been impossible to make a competent defence of D'Hara.

And we wouldn't need to defend you if we marched are our armies to war against your enemies, besides which, as you even said yourself realms would think twice about picking a fight with D'Hara so long as the strongest military on the continent was willing to defend them.

Quite the contrary. Siding with you would have put huge bulleyes on our heads.

35k CS, sure... needs to refit every now and then. The north can strike through Port Raviel, though Port Nebel, and through the East. The Lurias can also strike through the east and Port Nebel. Sea routes couldn't be scouted over, we had spies. They could have easily stricken the least defended city, and started a TO to deny walls before a defense can be organized.

Yea, attacking the North would have been a great idea.

Not to mention that both Aurvandil and Asylon seem to have made the mistake of believing that because we were anti-allison, we were anti-SA, or that because we were anti-hegemony, we were anti-SA.

If you, even for a moment, thought that Machiavel wanted to see SA defeated, you were making yourself quite colorful delusions. Aurvandil hegemony would be a million times worse: at least SA doesn't have robotic activity, unnaturally large resources and armies, hive-like behavior, and pompous heterogeneity.

We can deal with SA without being SA ourselves, the only ones who got whacked by them deserved it. When one of them attacked without the others, it was isolated and defeated. I've got no problem dealing with this.

You'e just mistakenly viewed D'Haran anti-hegemonism as anti-SA, when the reality is far from that. Bunch of our nobles are SA, and we are quite happy to have them.

Well, if D'Hara cannot even raise a competent defence of a large number of fortifications with a quite vast wealth, with large amounts of allied support, then they deserve to fall quite simply.

Wether we deserve it or not, forgive us for preferring survival.

Much of our wealth was because we really didn't spend much of armed forces. If we had to buy food AND pay for troops, we wouldn't have been nearly as rich as we were. Heck, just the food alone bankrupted us a few times.

And you don't seem to realize that these sea routes allow for easy travel, while also granting a "border" that enables TOs. Sure, TOs are possible almost everywhere now, but there's no landing penalty with these sea routes. Focusing their forces while our allies would be refitting would have allowed them to strike at us quite easily. And if they hit Port Nebel by surprise, win a battle, then they could have started a TO, denied us of our walls, and cut our realm in half, preventing us from travelling from one side to the other. Effectively dooming the whole realm.

D'Hara could have been wiped off many times in the past, had people put their heads to it, and without all that much effort. The removal of the sea routes will remove this great weakness, even the current set-up kinda screws up the infrastructures to be built for the Paisly-Raviel connection.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 23, 2012, 03:04:40 AM
Asylon isn't nor wasn't anti-SA. We were anti Kabrinskian aggression and we knew/thought that once it started Astrum would back them up. So, remember when I told Terran/Vellos not to start a war with Kabrinskia? Yeah... He started the war... Remember I was one telling you both to tone down the anti-SA rhetoric and not turn the war into a holy war? Yeah... That was Asylon. I'm sure you forgot that part. I was in SA until I left it near the end of the war mainly because I felt that it was time for me to move on and do something else for a while. I had already ran kingdoms into the ground, why not a religion?

The annoying thing was how many times I told Vellos not to attack Kabrinskia and what does he do?

The annoying part was us forging a secret alliance that would have been actuated if Kabrinskia came to attack you.

The annoying part is Kabrinskia calling in the Zuma and Asylon telling Vellos that we would sign a false peace with Kabrinskia and not abandon Terran to fight the Zuma alone. We were regrouping our troops and believed the Zuma would attack Terran so we surpise attacked Kabrinskia and found out the Zuma were merely passing by. During that little lull I remember the 26k Terran troops being decimated by 11k Kabrinskian troops...face palm.

The annoying part is that the entire time the war was going on I had Aurvandiils support for the northern campaign and Vellos couldn't bear to side with Mendicant. I remember D'hara was all on board for Aurvandiil but couldn't bear to tell fat head Vellos to stop being arrogant and dumb and let Aurvandiil ship troops through D'Hara.


I was piecing together one of the largest alliances Dwilight had ever seen and both of you failed big time. You are puppets and paupers. Once Aurvandiil found that the alliance with the Moot wasn't going to work they went and attacked Barca... Basically Vellos and Chenier brought this entirely on themselves. All because of short-sighted wishy washy shifty blindness...

I grew up playing AXIS&ALLIES, RISK, Battletech and a myriad of other strategy games... foo, im like a walking tactician gangster old school mofo...ya'll don wan mess wit da glam yo
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 23, 2012, 03:07:38 AM
Quite the contrary. Siding with you would have put huge bulleyes on our heads.

35k CS, sure... needs to refit every now and then. The north can strike through Port Raviel, though Port Nebel, and through the East. The Lurias can also strike through the east and Port Nebel. Sea routes couldn't be scouted over, we had spies. They could have easily stricken the least defended city, and started a TO to deny walls before a defense can be organized.

So you planned on a permanent existence of pointlessness? You exist because you trade to feed yourselves, and you exist so you can trade. Too afraid of war or losing territory or your wealth, your vast collection of cities your biggest restraint and weakness. What is the point in having land and wealth if you're just going to sit in peace perpetually out of fear of losing it? And of course, you're quick to argue how impossible it would be to attack the north, but you wasted no time at all in attacking the south, and still managed a decent defence against the Lurian's when they did invade.


Not to mention that both Aurvandil and Asylon seem to have made the mistake of believing that because we were anti-allison, we were anti-SA, or that because we were anti-hegemony, we were anti-SA.

I never assumed that at all, you did however imply you were that ways inclined when you commented on how you would much rather see Aurvandil fight to defeat S.A. than fight some one else and asked Aurvandil for a defensive alliance in regards to the threat from the north and the east.

If you, even for a moment, thought that Machiavel wanted to see SA defeated, you were making yourself quite colorful delusions. Aurvandil hegemony would be a million times worse: at least SA doesn't have robotic activity, unnaturally large resources and armies, hive-like behavior, and pompous heterogeneity.

Lol well I'm not sure what world you live in, but S.A. does have unnaturally large resources and armies, considering they own more than half a continent, the largest continent in the game as well. But no, I'm sure Aurvandil with its modest income and economy is far, far larger in resources than S.A. could hope to be. Aurvandil doesn't have hive like behaviour, and if you were the least bit clued in you would know that by now, nor do we have robotic activity, considering how much we fail to move competently right before your very eyes, which we even showed in the battle of Paisland this turn, and the previous campaign against Terran. But as ever, you like to tout and already disproved lie to try and make some sort of a veiled accusation against us. If we had robotic activity, would our regions revolt for lack of lords work? No. Would our regions starve because lords forget to transfer food? No. If we had robotic activity would we frequently have to make as much as four turn movements before a battle just so every moves in time? No. I could go on, but I'm sure the fact of the matter isn't actually relevant as far as careless remarks go.

We can deal with SA without being SA ourselves, the only ones who got whacked by them deserved it. When one of them attacked without the others, it was isolated and defeated. I've got no problem dealing with this.

And I am sure you believe that, it's convenient to convince yourself they deserved it so you can turn a blind eye to the excesses of the church and feel as though you have done nothing wrong. (This is all in regards to IC, not OOC in case you think this is a remark upon yourself and not your character).

You'e just mistakenly viewed D'Haran anti-hegemonism as anti-SA, when the reality is far from that. Bunch of our nobles are SA, and we are quite happy to have them.

No, we assumed your anti-hegemony-ism was actually that, opposed to hegemonies on principle. Evidently not, you just like to declare your enemies hegemonies on no basis whatsoever, such as you do to Aurvandil, whilst looking at real hegemonies and going "Oh, they're pretty all right actually, I mean they mass war anyone who so much as looks at them with a squint in midday sun, but still".


Much of our wealth was because we really didn't spend much of armed forces. If we had to buy food AND pay for troops, we wouldn't have been nearly as rich as we were. Heck, just the food alone bankrupted us a few times.

My comment on your wealth was in regards to sheer gross income you must have from four cities and two townslands, all the cities being the wealth of Candiels or higher, and the Townslands not exactly shabby either. Under a competent economic administration you should have a vast treasury stored up, like S.A. does, though obviously nowhere near as large.

And you don't seem to realize that these sea routes allow for easy travel, while also granting a "border" that enables TOs. Sure, TOs are possible almost everywhere now, but there's no landing penalty with these sea routes. Focusing their forces while our allies would be refitting would have allowed them to strike at us quite easily. And if they hit Port Nebel by surprise, win a battle, then they could have started a TO, denied us of our walls, and cut our realm in half, preventing us from travelling from one side to the other. Effectively dooming the whole realm.

I am perfectly aware of how powerful these new sea routes are, considering the enemies of Aurvandil managed to bring south armies from every realm in the north in what appeared to be a weeks worth of travel when it should have taken far, far longer and at much greater equipment damage.

D'Hara could have been wiped off many times in the past, had people put their heads to it, and without all that much effort. The removal of the sea routes will remove this great weakness, even the current set-up kinda screws up the infrastructures to be built for the Paisly-Raviel connection.

We shall see how Aurvandil fairs then.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 23, 2012, 03:12:23 AM
Asylon isn't nor wasn't anti-SA. We were anti Kabrinskian aggression and we knew/thought that once it started Astrum would back them up. So, remember when I told Terran/Vellos not to start a war with Kabrinskia? Yeah... He started the war... Remember I was one telling you both to tone down the anti-SA rhetoric and not turn the war into a holy war? Yeah... That was Asylon. I'm sure you forgot that part. I was in SA until I left it near the end of the war mainly because I felt that it was time for me to move on and do something else for a while. I had already ran kingdoms into the ground, why not a religion?

The annoying thing was how many times I told Vellos not to attack Kabrinskia and what does he do?

The annoying part was us forging a secret alliance that would have been actuated if Kabrinskia came to attack you.

The annoying part is Kabrinskia calling in the Zuma and Asylon telling Vellos that we would sign a false peace with Kabrinskia and not abandon Terran to fight the Zuma alone. We were regrouping our troops and believed the Zuma would attack Terran so we surpise attacked Kabrinskia and found out the Zuma were merely passing by. During that little lull I remember the 26k Terran troops being decimated by 11k Kabrinskian troops...face palm.

The annoying part is that the entire time the war was going on I had Aurvandiils support for the northern campaign and Vellos couldn't bear to side with Mendicant. I remember D'hara was all on board for Aurvandiil but couldn't bear to tell fat head Vellos to stop being arrogant and dumb and let Aurvandiil ship troops through D'Hara.


I was piecing together one of the largest alliances Dwilight had ever seen and both of you failed big time. You are puppets and paupers. Once Aurvandiil found that the alliance with the Moot wasn't going to work they went and attacked Barca... Basically Vellos and Chenier brought this entirely on themselves. All because of short-sighted wishy washy shifty blindness...

I grew up playing AXIS&ALLIES, RISK, Battletech and a myriad of other strategy games... foo, im like a walking tactician gangster old school mofo...ya'll don wan mess wit da glam yo

Don't worry, D'Hara are good at scapegoating the realms they make under the table agreements with. They did it to you, and they did it to me, both in regards to S.A. as well.

But yes, I would have much rather marched north to fight alongside Asylon then get caught up in what is actually a quite pointless war against the Veinsormoot, I'm still not entirely sure why we're even fighting other than they didn't want to sign peace when it was offered.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 03:52:10 AM
Asylon isn't nor wasn't anti-SA. We were anti Kabrinskian aggression and we knew/thought that once it started Astrum would back them up. So, remember when I told Terran/Vellos not to start a war with Kabrinskia? Yeah... He started the war... Remember I was one telling you both to tone down the anti-SA rhetoric and not turn the war into a holy war? Yeah... That was Asylon. I'm sure you forgot that part. I was in SA until I left it near the end of the war mainly because I felt that it was time for me to move on and do something else for a while. I had already ran kingdoms into the ground, why not a religion?

The annoying thing was how many times I told Vellos not to attack Kabrinskia and what does he do?

The annoying part was us forging a secret alliance that would have been actuated if Kabrinskia came to attack you.

The annoying part is Kabrinskia calling in the Zuma and Asylon telling Vellos that we would sign a false peace with Kabrinskia and not abandon Terran to fight the Zuma alone. We were regrouping our troops and believed the Zuma would attack Terran so we surpise attacked Kabrinskia and found out the Zuma were merely passing by. During that little lull I remember the 26k Terran troops being decimated by 11k Kabrinskian troops...face palm.

The annoying part is that the entire time the war was going on I had Aurvandiils support for the northern campaign and Vellos couldn't bear to side with Mendicant. I remember D'hara was all on board for Aurvandiil but couldn't bear to tell fat head Vellos to stop being arrogant and dumb and let Aurvandiil ship troops through D'Hara.


I was piecing together one of the largest alliances Dwilight had ever seen and both of you failed big time. You are puppets and paupers. Once Aurvandiil found that the alliance with the Moot wasn't going to work they went and attacked Barca... Basically Vellos and Chenier brought this entirely on themselves. All because of short-sighted wishy washy shifty blindness...

I grew up playing AXIS&ALLIES, RISK, Battletech and a myriad of other strategy games... foo, im like a walking tactician gangster old school mofo...ya'll don wan mess wit da glam yo

I grew up playing Risk!, Axis&Allies, and Diplomacy. What's your point?

You assume we wanted a continent-wide war. We didn't.

As for Terran going to war against Kabrinskia, yea, we didn't like that either, as you very well know. Guess what? D'Hara didn't send any troops to help Terran either. If a federated ally can't force us into a war we didn't want, why did you assume we'd want to be forced into a war by Asylon?

D'Hara didn't want war with anyone. It did everything it could to avoid war with Kabrinskia, same with Aurvandil. Except that Aurvandil forced our hand by attacking a federated ally, putting the Treaty of the Maroccidens into play. Something Kabrinskia had not done.

You assume we are shortsighted, because you confuse your own objectives and ambitions for ours. Having a behemoth on our doorstep may be in Asylon's best interests, it certainly isn't in the 'moot's.

So you planned on a permanent existence of pointlessness? You exist because you trade to feed yourselves, and you exist so you can trade. Too afraid of war or losing territory or your wealth, your vast collection of cities your biggest restraint and weakness. What is the point in having land and wealth if you're just going to sit in peace perpetually out of fear of losing it? And of course, you're quick to argue how impossible it would be to attack the north, but you wasted no time at all in attacking the south, and still managed a decent defence against the Lurian's when they did invade.

You assume all realms should be the same, and that war is the only possible venture in this game. BM would be rather bland if everyone acted the same way, and sought the same thing. That if you want something done, you have to do it yourself.

D'Hara's vulnerability, combined with its great wealth, is precisely why I settled up there in the first place. And why I'm so attached to it. D'Hara is forced to spend a great deal of attention to its diplomacy, as well as to its food management. No other realm has to bother as much as D'Hara. For many people, that'd be a total bore. However, some of us actually enjoy this. Makes things quite different from the other continents.

As for attacking the South, we were treaty-bound to do so. And as predicted, getting involved in a war blew up with the Lurians backstabbing us. As we always feared they would should we send troops abroad. However, we did not attack "the South". We attacked Aurvandil, who is limited to a small chunk of the South-West. Even if Falkirk had joined in, they'd still be attacking via the same city. It's nowhere as comparable as risking invasions from a ton of realms over a bunch of sea routes. As for the Lurias, I'm still amazed at how they failed to kill us. Perhaps they overestimated us. I don't know. From what I've seen since my return, their performance is considerably sub-par for the resources they have. Whereas Aurvandil manages a whole lot with very little, they manage very little with a whole lot. We shouldn't have stood a chance against average performance on their part.

I never assumed that at all, you did however imply you were that ways inclined when you commented on how you would much rather see Aurvandil fight to defeat S.A. than fight some one else and asked Aurvandil for a defensive alliance in regards to the threat from the north and the east.

See Aurvandil fight SA, sure. To defeat Kabrinskia, at the time, sure. Despite your forces, we'd never have expected you to be able to conquer SA. We wouldn't have seen it as desirable had we thought you capable of it, either. We've made a bunch of defensive alliances in the past with a bunch of people. Pretty amazing how, until the Treaty of the Maroccidens forced us to defend Barca, every time our partners decided to go launch a war on their own, for some reason expecting our support in their suicide campaign.

Lol well I'm not sure what world you live in, but S.A. does have unnaturally large resources and armies, considering they own more than half a continent, the largest continent in the game as well. But no, I'm sure Aurvandil with its modest income and economy is far, far larger in resources than S.A. could hope to be. Aurvandil doesn't have hive like behaviour, and if you were the least bit clued in you would know that by now, nor do we have robotic activity, considering how much we fail to move competently right before your very eyes, which we even showed in the battle of Paisland this turn, and the previous campaign against Terran. But as ever, you like to tout and already disproved lie to try and make some sort of a veiled accusation against us. If we had robotic activity, would our regions revolt for lack of lords work? No. Would our regions starve because lords forget to transfer food? No. If we had robotic activity would we frequently have to make as much as four turn movements before a battle just so every moves in time? No. I could go on, but I'm sure the fact of the matter isn't actually relevant as far as careless remarks go.

SA owns half the continent and nobles, or roughly so. It's NORMAL that they get this income and armies. Aurvandil owns a bunch of rurals with a tiny city, and they somehow had the largest armies a bunch of times in history.

You seem to think your movement rates are bad... I question how many realms you've played in. In a bunch I've played in, or observed, you'd need twice as long to get half the movement rates.

And I am sure you believe that, it's convenient to convince yourself they deserved it so you can turn a blind eye to the excesses of the church and feel as though you have done nothing wrong. (This is all in regards to IC, not OOC in case you think this is a remark upon yourself and not your character).

You are obviously out of touch with SA. Heck, OOC, I'm rather impressed SA got so big. Kudos to them. They could have done things a lot differently to stifle fun. They haven't. Quite the contrary.

No, we assumed your anti-hegemony-ism was actually that, opposed to hegemonies on principle. Evidently not, you just like to declare your enemies hegemonies on no basis whatsoever, such as you do to Aurvandil, whilst looking at real hegemonies and going "Oh, they're pretty all right actually, I mean they mass war anyone who so much as looks at them with a squint in midday sun, but still".

There are four major powers on the continent: SA, Luria, the 'moot, and Aurvandil. SA doesn't threaten us with total destruction. Only Aurvandil and Luria does. If Aurvandil hadn't been so hell-bent on picking on Barca, it could have remained a power in its corner. SA didn't really care enough for you guys at the start, neither did we, neither did the Lurias. You had world-grade armies, a bloc on your own. There was a kind of balance. All of the blocs could pose a serious threat to the other in some way or another. But if any one of the bloc annexes another... then everything changes. SA saw this: if you annexed the 'moot, they'd be in great trouble. The Lurias now see this as well. The 'moot would have reacted the same had you threatened to annex another bloc. Being anti-hegemonies isn't about raging against the big players, it's about trying to keep all of the foreign blocs at about the same strength, so that if any of them betrays you, you only need to rely on one of the other blocs to defeat them.

My comment on your wealth was in regards to sheer gross income you must have from four cities and two townslands, all the cities being the wealth of Candiels or higher, and the Townslands not exactly shabby either. Under a competent economic administration you should have a vast treasury stored up, like S.A. does, though obviously nowhere near as large.

We did have a ton of gold on hand. I personally gave over 10 000 gold to Gornak when I left for my honeymoon. No idea how all that gold was spent, though, I wasn't there. I'm kind of surprised we didn't do any better with these funds... And I know many others had significant wealth as well. You are correct on this point, though.

I am perfectly aware of how powerful these new sea routes are, considering the enemies of Aurvandil managed to bring south armies from every realm in the north in what appeared to be a weeks worth of travel when it should have taken far, far longer and at much greater equipment damage.

No. You are thinking of sea zones. I'm talking about sea routes, the ones about to disappear. If the enemies disembarked in Candiels by the sea zones, odds are they'll suffer considerable losses because of the landing, if not being pushed back altogether. With the sea routes, attacking by sea was like attacking from land, except scouts couldn't detect the movement. Now D'Hara will be vulnerable via more regions, but at least attackers will take casualties when they land, they'll be forced to pay a bunch for travel and provisions (to come and go), and won't be able to block travel on our otherwise linear realm.

But yes, I would have much rather marched north to fight alongside Asylon then get caught up in what is actually a quite pointless war against the Veinsormoot, I'm still not entirely sure why we're even fighting other than they didn't want to sign peace when it was offered.

All you had to do was not attack Barca. The unthinkable!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 23, 2012, 03:53:38 AM
Exactly... the Chenier and Vellos fiasco wars it should be called.


Wait a minute... Astrum/Morek/Corsanctum/Iashular/Libero/Terran/D'Hara and whoever else aren't a hegemony but Aurvandiil and an Asylonian priest preaching in Paisly are the greatest threat to Dwilight.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on November 23, 2012, 05:23:36 AM
So you planned on a permanent existence of pointlessness? You exist because you trade to feed yourselves, and you exist so you can trade. Too afraid of war or losing territory or your wealth, your vast collection of cities your biggest restraint and weakness. What is the point in having land and wealth if you're just going to sit in peace perpetually out of fear of losing it?

It's pointless to live a Donald Trump-like existence? To travel the continent, seeking food and conversation? We worked hard to settle these wild lands, fighting off monsters and undead. We earned it, and then we worked to keep what we have, and we're going to keep it all.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 23, 2012, 02:37:03 PM
You are entitled to nothing in BM...live by the sword, die by the sword.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 02:46:45 PM
It's pointless to live a Donald Trump-like existence? To travel the continent, seeking food and conversation? We worked hard to settle these wild lands, fighting off monsters and undead. We earned it, and then we worked to keep what we have, and we're going to keep it all.

Exactly. Mendicant proved that he had no understanding of D'Hara whatsoever, when he proposed the creation of a realm in Paisly as a BOON for us that we should be grateful for.

If D'Hara had wanted a separate entity there, we'd have formed one ages ago. It's not the opportunities or the propositions that were lacking. Coast to Coast (in a kind of opposite way to Canada's/US's) has been D'Hara's Manifest Destiny for quite some time. Even in our most pitiful days barely holding onto a region or two, we began dreaming of an age we'd have ports on both continents, wealth abound, and ties with influential people from all over the world. This last year, we achieved many things we never actually believed we'd be able to years before. D'Hara was on a high when the last great starvation occurred.

Aurvandil may live to fight, but that doesn't mean everyone else does. Or that if they do want to fight, it's to somehow prove something.

Trade was a great vector for diplomacy. Other nations had something we needed, and we could magically turn their excess rotting food into piles of gold. You may think that BM is just about CS and moving an army at the same pace. But many of us play BM for different reasons.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 23, 2012, 03:15:51 PM
Agreed, Dwilight should be diverse.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 23, 2012, 03:50:10 PM
D'Hara didn't want war with anyone. It did everything it could to avoid war with Kabrinskia, same with Aurvandil. Except that Aurvandil forced our hand by attacking a federated ally, putting the Treaty of the Maroccidens into play. Something Kabrinskia had not done.

Rubbish, if by doing everything to avoid war you mean, doing every to ignore Mendicant when he said "Don't declare war, we nearly have peace, there is no need for war, I don't want war" to which the reply was "Yeah well, we're going to have a war and that's that". You may have avoided a war with Kabrinskia, but you were definitely up for one against Aurvandil the moment the opportunity arose.

You assume we are shortsighted, because you confuse your own objectives and ambitions for ours. Having a behemoth on our doorstep may be in Asylon's best interests, it certainly isn't in the 'moot's.

I'm sure the irony of that is lost on you. You have a behemost on your doorstep and you seem quite happy to encourage their growth so long as they throw you something to nibble  on whilst they do it.

You assume all realms should be the same, and that war is the only possible venture in this game. BM would be rather bland if everyone acted the same way, and sought the same thing. That if you want something done, you have to do it yourself.

No I don't, but I do struggle to see the appeal in a realm that does nothing, ever, save for trade. That can't be fun, there's just nothing to do. Roleplay can only go so far when your realm does nothing.

D'Hara's vulnerability, combined with its great wealth, is precisely why I settled up there in the first place. And why I'm so attached to it. D'Hara is forced to spend a great deal of attention to its diplomacy, as well as to its food management. No other realm has to bother as much as D'Hara. For many people, that'd be a total bore. However, some of us actually enjoy this. Makes things quite different from the other continents.

All that effort, and to what end? Well I suppose you are happy simply with the journey, not the end result, which I can understand. I am the opposite, I always look to the end result and dislike the journey. Like now, I am looking to find the best possible end result of an Aurvandilan victory in this war, but resent the needlessness of the war in its current incarnation in the first place. Like right now, I am waiting for the time when I can begin what I refer to as my retirement roleplays for Mendicant, the climax of my character and the events he'll create in Aurvandil, but for that I need a time of genuine peace.

As for attacking the South, we were treaty-bound to do so. And as predicted, getting involved in a war blew up with the Lurians backstabbing us. As we always feared they would should we send troops abroad. However, we did not attack "the South". We attacked Aurvandil, who is limited to a small chunk of the South-West. Even if Falkirk had joined in, they'd still be attacking via the same city. It's nowhere as comparable as risking invasions from a ton of realms over a bunch of sea routes. As for the Lurias, I'm still amazed at how they failed to kill us. Perhaps they overestimated us. I don't know. From what I've seen since my return, their performance is considerably sub-par for the resources they have. Whereas Aurvandil manages a whole lot with very little, they manage very little with a whole lot. We shouldn't have stood a chance against average performance on their part.

You were treaty bound to defend Barca from the Zuma, but you were pretty quick to choose not to.

As for Luria Nova, well they are massively wealthier than Aurvandil and did at one point have more nobles, they should have been a true super power.

See Aurvandil fight SA, sure. To defeat Kabrinskia, at the time, sure. Despite your forces, we'd never have expected you to be able to conquer SA. We wouldn't have seen it as desirable had we thought you capable of it, either. We've made a bunch of defensive alliances in the past with a bunch of people. Pretty amazing how, until the Treaty of the Maroccidens forced us to defend Barca, every time our partners decided to go launch a war on their own, for some reason expecting our support in their suicide campaign.

Defeating Sanguis Astroism would never be the goal, but to sack the Vatican of the Church and to dominate them in war would be priceless. To look the biggest conglomerate the game has in the eye, challenge them and survive where people like Thulsoma and Asylon failed. That would certainly secure Aurvandil's reputation as a die hard military.

SA owns half the continent and nobles, or roughly so. It's NORMAL that they get this income and armies. Aurvandil owns a bunch of rurals with a tiny city, and they somehow had the largest armies a bunch of times in history.

We get the largest army because firstly we run efficient tax rates, and secondly we pay on a week by week basis, we don't worry about paying our men, we buy to the maximum spending all of our gold and deal with the bills later. We've been doing it so long we've gotten to the point where we can quite efficiently pay our way on a tax by tax basis leaving nothing left in between taxes, which is why Mendicant's treasury is believed to be eternal, it's always replenished before it seems to run out.

You seem to think your movement rates are bad... I question how many realms you've played in. In a bunch I've played in, or observed, you'd need twice as long to get half the movement rates.

We have high standards. In Character, we don't tolerate nobles who just fail to move for no good reason, if you can move, and you're ordered to do so, that's what you do. We put a lot of emphasis on it.

You are obviously out of touch with SA. Heck, OOC, I'm rather impressed SA got so big. Kudos to them. They could have done things a lot differently to stifle fun. They haven't. Quite the contrary.

I disagree, based upon the fact the north is deadlocked in alliances, with only the occasional gang war to keep them going, but whatever.

There are four major powers on the continent: SA, Luria, the 'moot, and Aurvandil. SA doesn't threaten us with total destruction. Only Aurvandil and Luria does. If Aurvandil hadn't been so hell-bent on picking on Barca, it could have remained a power in its corner. SA didn't really care enough for you guys at the start, neither did we, neither did the Lurias. You had world-grade armies, a bloc on your own. There was a kind of balance. All of the blocs could pose a serious threat to the other in some way or another. But if any one of the bloc annexes another... then everything changes. SA saw this: if you annexed the 'moot, they'd be in great trouble. The Lurias now see this as well. The 'moot would have reacted the same had you threatened to annex another bloc. Being anti-hegemonies isn't about raging against the big players, it's about trying to keep all of the foreign blocs at about the same strength, so that if any of them betrays you, you only need to rely on one of the other blocs to defeat them.

Well, Aurvandil never posed a threat to D'Hara, even when we were at war, Mendicant made it clear he would never have the heart to destroy, cripple or weaken D'Hara, until recently that is. Mendicant for some reason tried to hard to think highly of D'Hara, rather than utilising the killer instinct he should have and brought an end to D'Hara when they were on their knees in starvation, but that would have been dishonourable to Mendicant's eyes, there is no honour in attacking a starving wreck of a realm when they can barely defend themselves.

We did have a ton of gold on hand. I personally gave over 10 000 gold to Gornak when I left for my honeymoon. No idea how all that gold was spent, though, I wasn't there. I'm kind of surprised we didn't do any better with these funds... And I know many others had significant wealth as well. You are correct on this point, though.

Must be nice to just "lose" 10 grand, we've never had that kind of capital lying around in Aurv.

All you had to do was not attack Barca. The unthinkable!


All you had to do was heed the words of Mendicant and not rip up the peace treaty in process with Barca in some misguided belief it would protect them.

Exactly. Mendicant proved that he had no understanding of D'Hara whatsoever, when he proposed the creation of a realm in Paisly as a BOON for us that we should be grateful for.

Aurvandil may live to fight, but that doesn't mean everyone else does. Or that if they do want to fight, it's to somehow prove something.

Mendicant has made his ignorance clear on many occasions, he's very forthright in saying "I don't understand" but then, he doesn't exactly care to understand.

Aurvandil doesn't live to fight, we fight to live, and live to live. But we don't consider what D'Hara does as living, just "existing". Serving no greater purpose than to take up otherwise unoccupied space.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 04:35:59 PM
You assume that to accomplish something, you need to do it yourself.

Friends and wealth allows one to do much without ever doing it yourself. Our dependence on others isn't a weakness, it's our greatest strength.

If we had been self-dependent in terms of food, we'd likely have been an isolationist realm, and one day the Lurias would have invaded us and nobody would have given a crap. Isolationism isn't a viable long-term strategy.

And losing Paisly IS a threat to the realm, if it's long-term. You could have proposed to annex Port Raviel and Port Nebel, leaving us with Qubel Lighthouse and Sallowtown, and we wouldn't have been any more insulted than by the mere annexation of the duchy of Paisly. Paisly was, for most of D'Hara's history, the only thing keeping the realm alive. Giving it up was simply never an option, regardless of the price of refusing to let it go. You might have had the power to take more, and probably felt generous for not threatening to do so, but that's like capturing someone and telling them "Tell you what, we'll just cut off your left arm, and then we can be friends. You are right-handed, so it's not like you really NEED that arm anyways. It's just more dead weight you carry around!"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 23, 2012, 04:46:19 PM
You assume that to accomplish something, you need to do it yourself.

I don't make other people do things for me, when I can do them myself. To many people spend ages in Battlemaster waiting for some one else to make something happen, and it rarely comes about.

Friends and wealth allows one to do much without ever doing it yourself. Our dependence on others isn't a weakness, it's our greatest strength.

It's mediocrity, nothing else.

If we had been self-dependent in terms of food, we'd likely have been an isolationist realm, and one day the Lurias would have invaded us and nobody would have given a crap. Isolationism isn't a viable long-term strategy.

That depends on what you hope to achieve, but I assume you mean to survive indefinitely. I don't know, to an extent I think Aurvandilan style isolationism may have the edge, with our backs against a wall of our choosing always at war or on the verge of war, it breeds a strong, unified realm and a well disciplined army, and Aurvandil has at least shown our military power gives us relative impunity to just about any given coalition in Dwilight. Though, it's not quite applicable to D'Hara in its current form, you'd need to drastically change your realm composition and geography rather than just being sprawled out across the central south.

but that's like capturing someone and telling them "Tell you what, we'll just cut off your left arm, and then we can be friends. You are right-handed, so it's not like you really NEED that arm anyways. It's just more dead weight you carry around!"

Well, I offered friendship without the terms and D'Hara wasn't interested. Evidently I had to cut of an arm so D'Hara would learn to appreciate the other and realise their position.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on November 23, 2012, 04:56:44 PM
I don't make other people do things for me, when I can do them myself. To many people spend ages in Battlemaster waiting for some one else to make something happen, and it rarely comes about.

It's hard work, but it does work, and it is rewarding.

Working with others, you can accomplish much more than you could alone; more importantly, you can see your influence in every important event that happens around you, because you have had a hand in it. That's how you become involved; once you are involved, you begin to care.

And that's when the game stops being Risk with narrative RP's tacked on top and it starts being Battlemaster.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 23, 2012, 05:11:40 PM
+1!!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on November 23, 2012, 05:15:27 PM
+1!!

I was hoping for a piece of pumpkin pie....  :'(

 :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 05:47:25 PM
I don't make other people do things for me, when I can do them myself. To many people spend ages in Battlemaster waiting for some one else to make something happen, and it rarely comes about.

It's mediocrity, nothing else.

That depends on what you hope to achieve, but I assume you mean to survive indefinitely. I don't know, to an extent I think Aurvandilan style isolationism may have the edge, with our backs against a wall of our choosing always at war or on the verge of war, it breeds a strong, unified realm and a well disciplined army, and Aurvandil has at least shown our military power gives us relative impunity to just about any given coalition in Dwilight. Though, it's not quite applicable to D'Hara in its current form, you'd need to drastically change your realm composition and geography rather than just being sprawled out across the central south.

Well, I offered friendship without the terms and D'Hara wasn't interested. Evidently I had to cut of an arm so D'Hara would learn to appreciate the other and realise their position.

When I made Fheuv'n, I wanted war for the sake of war, with a nice slab of self-righteous propaganda on top. A realm ready to deal for its convictions.

That doesn't mean I want to play in this kind of realm everywhere, or that the game would be better off with only these kinds of realms.

If you calculate fun by raw CS, you may as well go play War Islands, Risk!, or Axis&Allies. The Lurias seem to have a blast, and with the exception of the current war, they never fought anyone other than themselves, save for Fissoa whose somewhat in their sphere of influence anyways.

You claim D'Hara is "mediocre" and pointless, but from what I heard, I'd say Aurvandil sounds like the most boring realm on Dwilight, and I'd never want to be part of it.

As for making others do something for you, this just says more about you than it does about diplomacy. It's not because you can't get others to do things for you that nobody can. You may enjoy playing with a bunch of pawns, I'd rather play with a bunch of collaborators. They may not obey me like drones, but dealing with them is a lot more fun. Not knowing who your enemies are, or what your neighbors next move will be is part of the intrigue, of what makes diplomacy interesting. If you intentionally make enemies of everyone, you lose this. If it's clear who the enemies and the friends are, something is lost. This kind of dichotomy brings very little to the game. And after a while of fighting the same guys, it grows tiresome.

And really, you are telling us that we should change our foreign policies and change our territory... In your eyes, "For D'Hara to be fun, it needs to stop being D'Hara". We've lived with our geographical constraints since day one. D'Hara isn't a realm for everyone, sure, but those who stayed, stayed for a reason. We never tried to pretend we were something we weren't. If we had war-eager people wanting to join us, we'd often redirect them to Terran instead.

We are what we are because that's what we want to be. Our geography doesn't handicap us, it defines us.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 23, 2012, 06:53:40 PM
Aurvandil is actually a lot of fun to play in. I feel like it is battlemaster's rome, or atleast could be. Our need for efficiency and infantry heavy armies certainly lean towards that. The rest of Dwilight is our Carthage. As a people most of the characters are pretty cool, some are just log in and play every day types, but a lot aren't and will voice their opinions and I feel more informed about world politics than in any other realm i play in and that was even as a knight. I've actually challenged Mendicant IC on a few things and he seems to consider your ideas even if you are just a lowly knight.

Our military society is hardly boring it's just, as you say, not for everyone.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 06:58:04 PM
Aurvandil is actually a lot of fun to play in. I feel like it is battlemaster's rome, or atleast could be. Our need for efficiency and infantry heavy armies certainly lean towards that. The rest of Dwilight is our Carthage. As a people most of the characters are pretty cool, some are just log in and play every day types, but a lot aren't and will voice their opinions and I feel more informed about world politics than in any other realm i play in and that was even as a knight. I've actually challenged Mendicant IC on a few things and he seems to consider your ideas even if you are just a lowly knight.

Our military society is hardly boring it's just, as you say, not for everyone.

My point was that tastes differ. I would never want to play in Aurvandil, despite how some of you praise it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 23, 2012, 07:18:37 PM
Aurvandil is actually a lot of fun to play in. I feel like it is battlemaster's rome, or atleast could be. Our need for efficiency and infantry heavy armies certainly lean towards that. The rest of Dwilight is our Carthage. As a people most of the characters are pretty cool, some are just log in and play every day types, but a lot aren't and will voice their opinions and I feel more informed about world politics than in any other realm i play in and that was even as a knight. I've actually challenged Mendicant IC on a few things and he seems to consider your ideas even if you are just a lowly knight.

Our military society is hardly boring it's just, as you say, not for everyone.

Nice comparison, but I think you aim a little too high. Maybe currently the Moot is comparable with Carthage facing an Aurvandil that look for ridiculous reasons to bully military inferior nations. The rest of Dwilight... well, that should be seen. Maybe some Lurian or Morekian should take this challenge  ;D Just a little curiosity, in the days of the Punic Wars, Rome was a Republic, not an absolute monarchy. But yes, as Rome did, Aurvandil likes to dictate politics to other realms.

Of course playing in Aurvandil is not for everyone. Starting this game currently in Aurvandil is just for those who like to have guarantees of victory before signing in. If you're not that kind of guy maybe you consider other options.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 07:27:43 PM
Nice comparison, but I think you aim a little too high. Maybe currently the Moot is comparable with Carthage facing an Aurvandil that look for ridiculous reasons to bully military inferior nations. The rest of Dwilight... well, that should be seen. Maybe some Lurian or Morekian should take this challenge  ;D Just a little curiosity, in the days of the Punic Wars, Rome was a Republic, not an absolute monarchy. But yes, as Rome did, Aurvandil likes to dictate politics to other realms.

Of course playing in Aurvandil is not for everyone. Starting this game currently in Aurvandil is just for those who like to have guarantees of victory before signing in. If you're not that kind of guy maybe you consider other options.

Guarantees of victory?

Aurvandil has yet to make any kinds of considerable progress. The damage the 'moot suffered was much more a result of Tom playing with the food production values than of Aurvandil's attacks.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 23, 2012, 07:33:30 PM
I agree that Aurvandil has no guarantees of victory. We are on a precipice. On one side lies glory and victory and on the other said lies defeat.
Lychaon I was comparing Aurvandil to the connotation behind the thought of Rome. Not its political situation.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 07:49:48 PM
As soon as Luria Nova defeats Luria Vesperi, things will get harder for Aurvandil...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 23, 2012, 08:10:09 PM
You say that like you have any control in Lurian politics. You don't. You only hear that LN might attack Aurvandil. They may or they may not. With the levels of military organization they've shown, barca would be a mighty enemy for them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2012, 08:19:31 PM
You say that like you have any control in Lurian politics. You don't. You only hear that LN might attack Aurvandil. They may or they may not. With the levels of military organization they've shown, barca would be a mighty enemy for them.

It'd free up D'Hara, regardless of whether LN attacks or not. And even if they declare war but scarcely send armies, that again more war protests hurting Aurvandil.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 23, 2012, 10:04:52 PM
It'd free up D'Hara, regardless of whether LN attacks or not. And even if they declare war but scarcely send armies, that again more war protests hurting Aurvandil.
Plus, if they timed their attacks, they could wreak havoc on Aurvandil while they are off fighting up north. A two front war is much harder regardless of the second fronts military strength.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 23, 2012, 11:22:38 PM
Indeed Aurvandil has done little damage to the Veinsormoot, and for a reason. Up until now in the war we were determined not actually destroy the realms we face, which is why we repeatedly declined to go and destroy D'Hara, or to burn down Terran. As Mendicant at least had faith in a peace process and you don't generate good will by burning the hell out of your opponent whilst offering them peace. The same with the Provincia, if we were fighting to win we wouldn't have let it die, we would have marched some of our forces and garrisoned maybe 15kcs behind the fortress, which would pretty much roadblock any attacking army the moot could raise. Then again, if we were fighting to win we would never have founded the Provincia, we would have kept the nobles in estates in Aurvandil, to maximise income efficiency and the amount of troop leaders we have.

But that has rather changed, Aurvandil will actually fight to win now, we will have no reservations in making "Madina" out of D'Hara. At any rate, there is almost a guarantee of survival, I am entirely confident that even if Aurvandil is reduced to our core regions (Candiels, Candiels Fields, Agl and Zerujil) we would be able to pull of an excellent come back and ensure our continued survival. I don't see how our enemies can win when their current campaigning has been so lack lustre and entirely reliant upon Aurvandil bothering to march to face them in battle in a region of their choosing. The difference is, I'm betting, that Aurvandil can actually competently launch an offensive campaign but D'Hara and Terran can't, and that's why they don't. If they had an ounce of instinct they would have launched a campaign into Aurvandil the moment we started having mass revolts from war protests, that would have genuinely hurt us. But instead they did nothing and eventually attacked the Provincia, as if it served a purpose other than to give Aurvandil more time.

The Provincia rather excellently gained Aurvandil as much time as we needed, when we needed it to recover, and in the end that's all the realm was going to be good for on a purely strategic level.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 23, 2012, 11:39:50 PM
I wish I could post secret predictions and have them pop open one by one as they came to pass...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 23, 2012, 11:42:40 PM
Aurvandil is actually a lot of fun to play in. I feel like it is battlemaster's rome, or atleast could be. Our need for efficiency and infantry heavy armies certainly lean towards that. The rest of Dwilight is our Carthage. As a people most of the characters are pretty cool, some are just log in and play every day types, but a lot aren't and will voice their opinions and I feel more informed about world politics than in any other realm i play in and that was even as a knight. I've actually challenged Mendicant IC on a few things and he seems to consider your ideas even if you are just a lowly knight.

Our military society is hardly boring it's just, as you say, not for everyone.

In a way, Aurvandil forces people to voice their opinions and question Mendicant, as we've removed all other means of political participation or personal advancement in a political or career sense, if the people want to have a say or investment in how Aurvandil operates, or the policies they run then they have only to speak up and they'll be heard, but they can't run things like political campaigns, elections, political lobbying as a means of getting what they want done, as all of that is considered treasonous. Which I think has quite nicely removed all the sort of personal disputes, political careerism and self serving endeavours that crippled the Madina Republic. But at the same time, our nobles are quite "Free" politically, religiously and ethnically, and hold equal influence on the direction Aurvandil takes as anyone else in the Commonwealth does. Everyone gets listened to and considered equally without pretence, whilst are regularly presented with the opportunity to voice their thoughts on what is happening, or going to happen. Mendicant is the political leviathan, and everyone else stands equally before him.

I'd like to think this has encouraged a culture in Aurvandil where you separate duty from politics, and the hold the former as much more important. Which is what Mendicant set out to do when he founded Aurvandil.

As soon as Luria Nova defeats Luria Vesperi, things will get harder for Aurvandil...

Or it will get easier.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 24, 2012, 12:08:28 AM
You don't need to roleplay your character all the time, so it's not necessary to pretend that you knew what was about to happen at any time. That purely fits an absolutist king, but it's not so bad to admit some false paces. You show the Provincia as a masterpiece of successful politics, but even for me, that haven't been in this game for long yet, there're some incongruities.

I think basically if you didn't set that garrison is whether you needed to effectively to lose it to justify a funny massive offensive over the Veinsormoot, or you just thought that you established so nicely your neutrality conditions that everyone would shut up and applause.

The first reason could fit with the aggressive ropleplaying you've played towards some other players, with the "raped and beaten noble Florence" matter. This is quite a glimpse of those Roman politics that some of you think accurate to Aurvandil. But it doesn't too much when you like to use words such as "honour" in your language very often.

It shouldn't bother you so much to hear complaints if you decide to invade a region which revolted from another realm to set a colony which could be a direct menace to its neighbours. If Barca had your military strength and would take over Celtiberia when you lost control over it (many times recently), would you just shut up? Moreover, I'm not sure but I think you did just like that with this region some time ago, didn't you?

I have faith that the Veinsormoot will stand long enough to avoid the destruction you're planning. Luckily enough, maybe the Astroists could decide to put down Aurvandilian ambitions a little bit, or maybe Luria has something to say as Chénier wrote. You never now, but in such a game like this, with no winning formulae, a good period for a realm probably finishes one way or another.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 24, 2012, 12:28:29 AM
You show the Provincia as a masterpiece of successful politics, but even for me, that haven't been in this game for long yet, there're some incongruities.

The Provincia was a situation of... if it lives, we stand to gain, if it falls, we stand to gain. Not so much a situation of a masterful piece of politics, just one we could profit from in either outcome.

I think basically if you didn't set that garrison is whether you needed to effectively to lose it to justify a funny massive offensive over the Veinsormoot, or you just thought that you established so nicely your neutrality conditions that everyone would shut up and applause.

To be honest, we just couldn't be bothered to defend the Provincia. It wasn't worth the time, effort or resources, and particularly not when Aurvandil was in dire straights. Really, we'd rather not have to fight D'Hara, it makes our job of bringing down the Terran threat far easier, and quicker, and D'Hara isn't much of a threat to Aurvandil on its own, though I am sure they aren't incapable of some degree of malice if left to their own devices long enough.

The first reason could fit with the aggressive ropleplaying you've played towards some other players, with the "raped and beaten noble Florence" matter. This is quite a glimpse of those Roman politics that some of you think accurate to Aurvandil. But it doesn't too much when you like to use words such as "honour" in your language very often.

Lady Florence roleplayed the whole, almost raped stuff, to Mendicant and a few others and it happened to fit quite nicely.

It shouldn't bother you so much to hear complaints if you decide to invade a region which revolted from another realm to set a colony which could be a direct menace to its neighbours. If Barca had your military strength and would take over Celtiberia when you lost control over it (many times recently), would you just shut up? Moreover, I'm not sure but I think you did just like that with this region some time ago, didn't you?

Well, the Provincia went out of its way to make it clear they wouldn't be a direct menace to their neighbours, but I don't think anyone cared. And no, Celtiberia changed allegiance to Aurvandil with a few other regions because some of the lords were sick of the tyranny and corruption in the Barcan Republic.

I have faith that the Veinsormoot will stand long enough to avoid the destruction you're planning. Luckily enough, maybe the Astroists could decide to put down Aurvandilian ambitions a little bit, or maybe Luria has something to say as Chénier wrote. You never now, but in such a game like this, with no winning formulae, a good period for a realm probably finishes one way or another.

Well it's good you have faith. It'll be an interesting fight and the deck is stacked quite highly in the favour of the Moot so it'll be interesting to see the end result.

As for Luria Nova, if they invade Aurvandil, well that is just... dreary. The war has already been dogpiled onto rather a bit excessively.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 24, 2012, 02:38:10 AM
Consider it a challenge, or a testament to your military prowes, or even your diplomatic failure.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 24, 2012, 02:48:42 AM
having 181/400 of the nobles on dwilight at war with us is all the challenge I like thank you! we don't need to put another 50 on top of that lol
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on November 24, 2012, 05:35:24 AM
Lady Florence roleplayed the whole, almost raped stuff, to Mendicant and a few others and it happened to fit quite nicely.

It is fine to roleplay that your character is almost raped. It is not okay to say that another character incited the rape, without their permission.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/RP_Primer (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/RP_Primer)
7. Roleplaying your Character
Don't RP other peoples' characters for them. This is a form of "powerplaying" and happens when, for example, you RP something with a serious effect on another character without their permission. If you are going to hit another noble over the head, steal his purse, sleep with his wife, or otherwise do anything that has more than a passing consequence, either get their permission, or have the game back you up (i.e. if you've just won a duel, then you can certainly RP winning the duel, but you should still work out the specifics of how the duel went with the other player). For example, even if I've just won a duel, I'm not going to RP that the other noble was an awful swordsman and didn't stand a chance unless I've cleared it with his player first.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 24, 2012, 05:35:35 AM
having 181/400 of the nobles on dwilight at war with us is all the challenge I like thank you! we don't need to put another 50 on top of that lol
Maybe think about that last point Indirik said
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 24, 2012, 01:23:58 PM
It is fine to roleplay that your character is almost raped. It is not okay to say that another character incited the rape, without their permission.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/RP_Primer (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/RP_Primer)
7. Roleplaying your Character
Don't RP other peoples' characters for them. This is a form of "powerplaying" and happens when, for example, you RP something with a serious effect on another character without their permission. If you are going to hit another noble over the head, steal his purse, sleep with his wife, or otherwise do anything that has more than a passing consequence, either get their permission, or have the game back you up (i.e. if you've just won a duel, then you can certainly RP winning the duel, but you should still work out the specifics of how the duel went with the other player). For example, even if I've just won a duel, I'm not going to RP that the other noble was an awful swordsman and didn't stand a chance unless I've cleared it with his player first.

Indeed, I find Aurvandilian roleplays to be extremely distasteful.

How would you like that I RPed that her guards raped me when I was emprisonned? Or that your troops are raping children in Paisland to help the TO? Because if you keep up that !@#$ty roleplaying, I'm going to start doing that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on November 24, 2012, 01:54:16 PM
Indeed, I find Aurvandilian roleplays to be extremely distasteful.

How would you like that I RPed that her guards raped me when I was emprisonned? Or that your troops are raping children in Paisland to help the TO? Because if you keep up that !@#$ty roleplaying, I'm going to start doing that.

The more intense the conflict thus becomes, doesn't make that the game much more fun?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 24, 2012, 02:11:20 PM
The more intense the conflict thus becomes, doesn't make that the game much more fun?

If you're roleplaying your character as a villain, maybe you don't mind another person roleplays him that way. If you like to show him as somebody with noble manners rather than a sanguinary with no morality, maybe you do mind.

Personally I think roleplay should help to add flavour and fun to the game, not to create exaltation attributing murderous attitudes to the characters when there's a war involved. Of course in the real word there have happened (and keep on happening) awful barbarities in war times. But if we want to play our characters as if they were gentlemen, we should avoid that kind of talking.

In my opinion, that's another thing that should make a difference between BattleMaster players from shabby players that use distasteful language in other several RPGs.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 24, 2012, 02:17:51 PM
The more intense the conflict thus becomes, doesn't make that the game much more fun?

It isn't about intense IC battles. If I had RPed that I sent mobs to rape her, and that they had RPed that they had send troops to burn every woman's faces they encountered, then that'd be fine.

If they RP that I sent mobs to rape her, and I RP that they sent troops to burn every woman's face, then that just creates OOC frustration.

Machiavel is generally against torture, and doesn't believe in such tactics as sending mobs to rape Florence. He's also quite merciless, however, and in reality he'd have no second-thought about sending mobs to behead anyone who would attempt such a thing in his name. He wanted his rule to Paisly remade, it was not about Florence in any way, and he certainly wouldn't have put his reputation on the line for someone as unworthy as her.

Same for Barca. I doubt they RP as living in mud huts.

It's a trend that Aurvandil is developing. They think themselves as gods, and they think it gives them rights to RP others as they see fit.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 24, 2012, 03:17:40 PM
Yeah but everyone knows Barcans live in mud huts... ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 24, 2012, 03:23:27 PM
IMO, if you stir up a peasant mob, I don't see too much wrong with the other person doing some impromptu RP with how that mob acts. It is, after all, a peasant mob. Just because you started the mob doesn't mean you control each and every single one of the thousands of peasants in it. The mob getting a little out of control, and committing wanton acts of violence, is a risk you take when dealing with mobs.

If someone RPd that you had actually sent them out to commit rape on purpose, then that might be crossing the line.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 24, 2012, 04:14:08 PM
Indeed, I find Aurvandilian roleplays to be extremely distasteful.

How would you like that I RPed that her guards raped me when I was emprisonned? Or that your troops are raping children in Paisland to help the TO? Because if you keep up that !@#$ty roleplaying, I'm going to start doing that.

We haven't roleplayed anything .. and well ... She Did Have Her Guards Rape You In Prison.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 24, 2012, 04:15:28 PM
IMO, if you stir up a peasant mob, I don't see too much wrong with the other person doing some impromptu RP with how that mob acts. It is, after all, a peasant mob. Just because you started the mob doesn't mean you control each and every single one of the thousands of peasants in it. The mob getting a little out of control, and committing wanton acts of violence, is a risk you take when dealing with mobs.

If someone RPd that you had actually sent them out to commit rape on purpose, then that might be crossing the line.

As far as I am aware, it was declared an attempted rape. And when you get an angry mob of fanatical peasants trying violently to drag a woman from her home, well it's rather safe to assume it would escalate to sexual violence and her being beaten to death.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 24, 2012, 05:23:09 PM
Quote
She Did Have Her Guards Rape You In Prison.

This is an example of how somebody RP two someone else's characters. In this case, it seems for a different reason from adding flavour or fun to the game, as it's intended to humiliate someone else's character.

Quote
As far as I am aware, it was declared an attempted rape. And when you get an angry mob of fanatical peasants trying violently to drag a woman from her home, well it's rather safe to assume it would escalate to sexual violence and her being beaten to death.

If Chénier finds distasteful the roleplaying that you and other players have played, I guess it's because he doesn't feel identified with all the raping thing, and didn't roleplayed that the mob were trying to rape Florence.

I think we shouldn't use that kind of RP. Maybe we could think that a medieval angry mob would have raped or beaten a lady. But you can't make just a simulation feature of a game in which many other players should enjoy. Every player should avoid that kind of RP, whether it's related to a character, or just the peasants in the game, with raped children and that sort of things. We can just assume there's another kind of interesting RP apart from this, rather than justify it at all cost.

One thing is rivalry among players, let's try to think more often OOC and not humiliate rivals.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 24, 2012, 05:36:01 PM
This is an example of how somebody RP two someone else's characters. In this case, it seems for a different reason from adding flavour or fun to the game, as it's intended to humiliate someone else's character.

If Chénier finds distasteful the roleplaying that you and other players have played, I guess it's because he doesn't feel identified with all the raping thing, and didn't roleplayed that the mob were trying to rape Florence.

I think we shouldn't use that kind of RP. Maybe we could think that a medieval angry mob would have raped or beaten a lady. But you can't make just a simulation feature of a game in which many other players should enjoy. Every player should avoid that kind of RP, whether it's related to a character, or just the peasants in the game, with raped children and that sort of things. We can just assume there's another kind of interesting RP apart from this, rather than justify it at all cost.

One thing is rivalry among players, let's try to think more often OOC and not humiliate rivals.

Quite crucially, D'Hara nor Chenier denied the accusations when they were put forward, and instead tried to justify it, which is essentially admitting it. Thus, why it has stuck. Though, it's only really been mentioned on the forum facetiously and not in character.

And the accusation was of the mob attempting to rape Florence, which is hardly anything personal on Chenier, and was exactly that, a hearsay accusation from Florence that D'Hara rather failed to deny or disprove but tried to defend so it went uncontested and got taken as a matter of fact because D'Hara made it seem to go without question. He just doesn't like us roleplaying his characters actions in a bad light? Deal with it. Madina essentially roleplayed Mendicant as baby eating despot with a proclivity to genocide and dominance, and whilst that isn't true and it goes against how I roleplay Mendicant they're perfectly at liberty to do so and I/we took it in good stride, defaming your opponents, spreading rumours and creating propaganda is part of the fun of a war and inter character interaction, and I rather object to the notion we should all be incredibly friendly and tongue in cheek about everything, it would remove a quite entertaining portion of the game. Character assassinations, rumour mongering, building up in character roleplayed rivalries and disputes. Terran have even done something similar even now and you don't see us complaining OOC at how they call us wild animals and barbarians and basically fascists, though they were pretty quick to complain and whine when Allomere was apparently "less than complimentary" about Barca /in a roleplay description of his characters perception/. That's how it works, character assassinations, removing ones credibility and debasing their reputation were immensely important during the medieval era, and that's why people work so hard to try and defame the other and history is filled with examples of things like this, and people of the time rather relished making sexual accusations about their opponents. Though, we haven't made one about Chenier so far it should be noted, but alluded to the possible sexual consequence of one of his actions.

Bad Sportsmanship is trying to enforce a policy of tongue in cheek never being able to even allude to something bad about another persons character. Good Sportsmanship by contrast, is being able to take it in your stride when some one does it to you and to find a way I.C. to get back at them rather than trying to act offended over something that doesn't require self aggrandising "offence".
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 24, 2012, 06:25:07 PM
Well, according to your comment, if somebody doesn't like another player's RP, reply with a more aggressive RP. If everybody agrees, problem solved. Maybe you're true and everybody enjoys the opposite of a "tongue in the cheek" RP.

Quote
Bad Sportsmanship is trying to enforce a policy of tongue in cheek never being able to even allude to something bad about another persons character. Good Sportsmanship by contrast, is being able to take it in your stride when some one does it to you and to find a way I.C. to get back at them rather than trying to act offended over something that doesn't require self aggrandising "offence".

I agree with you on that. But still I can't find any Good Sportsmanship or a good reason on this:

Quote
She Did Have Her Guards Rape You In Prison.

If some Terranian or D'Haran players have RP like this, then OK. But it seems that harsh RP sometimes heats up actually some players.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 24, 2012, 06:30:56 PM
Also, you say D'hara defended the rape of Florence but that's a complete and utter lie, D'hara defended Machiavel's religious takeover and that's a big difference.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 24, 2012, 08:54:14 PM
I had a full roleplayed love affair with Indirik... I just wanted to get that off my chest...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on November 24, 2012, 11:24:28 PM
So who is winning?

Astrum now has the highest CS in Dwilight's history... :o Probably highest anywhere...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on November 25, 2012, 12:10:03 AM
Chenier is winning.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Marlboro on November 25, 2012, 12:28:07 AM
Well, according to your comment, if somebody doesn't like another player's RP, reply with a more aggressive RP. If everybody agrees, problem solved. Maybe you're true and everybody enjoys the opposite of a "tongue in the cheek" RP.

Yeah, I sort of agree with this, but I can see the other side. To use an example from a few weeks ago, if someone RPed cutting my dude's hand off without my permission, I'd fire an RP back about my dude stabbing out both of the Judge's eyes with the jagged stump along with fifty Deal With It.gifs

I had a full roleplayed love affair with Indirik... I just wanted to get that off my chest...

Now I'm jealous. What does Paul have to do to get some of that hot, hot old man ass?

Astrum now has the highest CS in Dwilight's history... :o Probably highest anywhere...

Cagilan Empire's rocking about the same, and most of it's mobile as opposed to the huge amount of militia Astrum's got by way of Kabrinskia duchy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 25, 2012, 01:51:36 AM
Also, you say D'hara defended the rape of Florence but that's a complete and utter lie, D'hara defended Machiavel's religious takeover and that's a big difference.

Indeed. And I was in prison, and I never saw any RP of it IG, I just heard of it on the forums.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 25, 2012, 01:57:19 AM
As far as I am aware, it was declared an attempted rape. And when you get an angry mob of fanatical peasants trying violently to drag a woman from her home, well it's rather safe to assume it would escalate to sexual violence and her being beaten to death.

Actually, no, not at all.

A small mob of 5 people, sure. A mob of hundreds, of a thousand?

Secondly, this action never results in any kind of harm to the targeted person. That's because the action isn't targeted at a person, it's targeted at an estate. It's large-scale vandalism. It's meant to scare someone away, not to harm him or arrest him.

Thirdly, my character is present. He instigates the crowds, and leads them. That's why when the troops disperse the crowd, they get to arrest the priest. He didn't just initiate something then run away. He can oversee the process and restrict it as he wants.

Finally, the action failed because of the troops involved. The mobs therefore never got close to Florence.

She RPed something that goes completely against the spirit of the mechanic that was used, for the sole purpose of slandering my character.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 25, 2012, 02:58:55 AM
Now I'm jealous. What does Paul have to do to get some of that hot, hot old man ass?
Wear Glaumring's leopard print thong.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 25, 2012, 04:37:10 AM
Its not leopard print! How dare you roleplay my thing for me... Everyone knows my thong is cheetah print!  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on November 25, 2012, 09:23:49 AM
Quote
I had a full roleplayed love affair with Indirik... I just wanted to get that off my chest...

Quote
Now I'm jealous. What does Paul have to do to get some of that hot, hot old man ass?

Quote
Wear Glaumring's leopard print thong.

Quote
Its not leopard print! How dare you roleplay my thing for me... Everyone knows my thong is cheetah print! 

Hahahaha... you guys are crazy  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 26, 2012, 01:16:05 AM
So ladies and gentleman. What are your thoughts on the new Aurvandilan offensive?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on November 26, 2012, 01:37:45 AM
Is there one? I must have missed it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 26, 2012, 01:52:01 AM
Here I was thinking their plan was to let us take Paisly to take it right back...

They didn't even dare attack the small garrison there. My duchy is secured. XD
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 26, 2012, 02:04:27 AM
Is there one? I must have missed it.

No one suspects the Aurvandiilian invasion... 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on November 26, 2012, 02:04:36 AM
So ladies and gentleman. What are your thoughts on the new Aurvandilan offensive?

They're so douchey! All the time!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 26, 2012, 02:08:24 AM
Here I was thinking their plan was to let us take Paisly to take it right back...

They didn't even dare attack the small garrison there. My duchy is secured. XD

you presume to know Aurvandilan military strategy. we lull you into a false sense of security then POW right in the kisser. By that i mean we will soon become the niecest realm on dwilight. flowers and daisies and such
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on November 26, 2012, 02:28:03 AM
So ladies and gentleman. What are your thoughts on the new Aurvandilan offensive?

Was a bit surprised at the push into Chesland– that's not the Aurvandi strategy of days gone by. Historically ya'll have been more of a slow, unstoppable juggernaut. Interesting.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on November 26, 2012, 03:36:26 AM
Nah, they've been quite rash before. A couple of months ago both Terran and Aurvandil sensed that the other was weak, and so optimistically they launched subsequent invasions against one another, despite neither of them being fully prepared to launch said invasions. Predictably they both failed in embarrassing displays of incompetence.

The push into Chesland was likely inspired by the fact that it had gone rogue, and thus the defenders couldn't make use of it's walls and there was potential for Aurvandil to delay the takeover and mop up another tid bit of Terran's military at the same time.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on November 26, 2012, 06:40:02 AM
you presume to know Aurvandilan military strategy. we lull you into a false sense of security then POW right in the kisser. By that i mean we will soon become the niecest realm on dwilight. flowers and daisies and such
I must say I was surprised at your attack. It could have been defended, but I think of all of those of Terran that were south, went to Paisly, and all there were somewhat trapped. I expected an invasion of D'hara, not Terran. Good move.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on November 26, 2012, 10:08:14 AM
I must say I was surprised at your attack. It could have been defended, but I think of all of those of Terran that were south, went to Paisly, and all there were somewhat trapped. I expected an invasion of D'hara, not Terran. Good move.

Also, Thanksgiving week was quite the sneaky time for an attack. I play the General of Terran and my attention to the game has been extremely small to nothing the past week or so because of traveling for the holiday as well as wrapping up term papers for school.

But, yeah. Surprising attack, I guess. Mendicant hates Terran so I figured we would take the first chance he got to sock it to us.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 26, 2012, 12:40:34 PM
Meh, I still say their goal was to sack Paisly, and then we scared them away.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on November 26, 2012, 12:43:31 PM
Meh, I still say their goal was to sack Paisly, and then we scared them away.

D'haran optimisim at its finest
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on November 26, 2012, 12:46:02 PM
We were dancing gangnam style, which totally threw them off their game and made them run elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 27, 2012, 02:51:26 AM
We were dancing gangnam style, which totally threw them off their game and made them run elsewhere.
I knew there was something off about you D'Harans.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on November 27, 2012, 02:51:57 PM
We were dancing gangnam style, which totally threw them off their game and made them run elsewhere.

Oh.. The D'harans suffer from brain damage? I guess we don't need to conquer them then...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on November 27, 2012, 07:12:57 PM
Armor of Gangnam Style
+2000 defence
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on November 27, 2012, 07:25:09 PM
Hey, I found this pic of Aurvandil's infantry - it seems morale is sagging.

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me4nr45dr41qf1wulo1_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on November 28, 2012, 12:57:42 AM
you haven't been around our infantry much then. They're riding high from winning all of the skirmishes lately.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on November 28, 2012, 11:20:29 PM
We would have sacked Paisly, but to be fair that would have validated the defence Terran and D'Hara raised, and if you're happy to bottle yourself up in Paisly whilst we hem you in through a force defending the Motte and Bailey of Paisland, go for it. If Aurvandil's armies had been in better shape we would have sacked Chateau Saffalore (Chesney was a bit too well defended I think to warrant the attack) and actually done some damage to Terran, as ultimately D'Hara is the weaker link of the two and the easiest to strike, so one we can do at our leisure, whilst we actually need to weaken Terran to reach a strategic goal in the war.

Of course our armies were much too limp this campaign to do much of anything, but it has at least wasted the time of our opponents and frustrated their defences, a minor victory.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: gsklee on December 11, 2012, 08:54:02 AM
Not sure. Darfix or Gias Kay Lee (that's right—Darfix and GiasK, like the cities) developed the map. It's an awesome coincidence if not intentional.

FYI - it's an awesome coincidence.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on December 11, 2012, 09:31:01 AM
FYI - it's an awesome coincidence.
hahaha, yeah....
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 11, 2012, 11:47:43 PM
We would have sacked Paisly, but to be fair that would have validated the defence Terran and D'Hara raised, and if you're happy to bottle yourself up in Paisly whilst we hem you in through a force defending the Motte and Bailey of Paisland, go for it. If Aurvandil's armies had been in better shape we would have sacked Chateau Saffalore (Chesney was a bit too well defended I think to warrant the attack) and actually done some damage to Terran, as ultimately D'Hara is the weaker link of the two and the easiest to strike, so one we can do at our leisure, whilst we actually need to weaken Terran to reach a strategic goal in the war.

Of course our armies were much too limp this campaign to do much of anything, but it has at least wasted the time of our opponents and frustrated their defences, a minor victory.

Sure, absolutely. You totally weren't afraid of the defense, you just didn't want to "validate it". Of course.

Just as we just saw laughing at your invasion force. We just didn't move out because we didn't care to "validate it" either.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 12, 2012, 12:13:15 AM
Sure, absolutely. You totally weren't afraid of the defense, you just didn't want to "validate it". Of course.

Just as we just saw laughing at your invasion force. We just didn't move out because we didn't care to "validate it" either.

The difference is Chénier, I was being serious without need of idle boast and self complimenting auto fellatio as opposed to your passive aggressive sarcasm.

We knew it would annoy you more to just ignore your defence of Paisly entirely, as you seemed so set in the belief Aurvandil valued Paisly enough to warrant an attack regardless of the situation. We had you bottled in Paisly, which allowed us to raid Terran whilst you were too impotent to do anything about it, even as a combined army, we even forced Terran to return home by sea rather than land. It was a perfect strategic position for us, why bother attacking a low priority target like Paisly? Instead of securing Paisland and raiding Terran, to the shame of the allied forces in Paisly? Besides which, an attack on Paisly would have worked well for Aurvandil, as I recall you barely had any infantry on the walls, so once the Chevaliers reached the walls it would be an easy fight.

Quite simply we saw the effort you were putting into the defence of Paisly and considered it a great jest to circumvent it and render it quite irrelevant by not validating it with an assault. You don't value the stratagem behind it, you trapped yourself in Paisly whilst we held Paisland stopping you from leaving, then looted Terran at our leisure and left when we felt like it, leaving your combined army redundant for the entire campaign. Which, to us was both strategically sound (We trapped you in your own region and made you irrelevant for an entire campaign) and amusing (Thwarting your efforts and mocking them by trapping you in your own defence) and to an extent, it was done to antagonise D'Hara over their attack on the Provincia, it was almost a declaration of "We aren't even mad that you destroyed it, we'll recreate it when it pleases us not when you think we should" and as an extension, Aurvandil doesn't like to be predictable, and it would have been predictable to lay a siege any observer could have foretold weeks in advance.

You should remember, Mendicant likes to amuse himself with jests particularly in war, and Aurvandil likes to be unexpected and do something to the ire of their opponents, and of course, we feel perfectly secure in our current position to do this kind of thing, after everything we feel that we can drag this war out as long as we like though the longevity of this war thus far has been due to the impotence of our armies to bring a swift conclusion and Mendicant's diplomacy to secure peace. That said, another thing is, Aurvandil doesn't know why it fights, we fight because we can't get peace, but we don't particularly fight for any objective, but because we have to otherwise our enemies will take liberty of absence in battle, so our quite bipolar military policy in the war reflects that. We are an army that fights because we don't know how to get peace, which is no way to fight.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 12, 2012, 12:32:31 AM
The difference is Chénier, I was being serious without need of idle boast and self complimenting auto fellatio as opposed to your passive aggressive sarcasm.

We knew it would annoy you more to just ignore your defence of Paisly entirely, as you seemed so set in the belief Aurvandil valued Paisly enough to warrant an attack regardless of the situation. We had you bottled in Paisly, which allowed us to raid Terran whilst you were too impotent to do anything about it, even as a combined army, we even forced Terran to return home by sea rather than land. It was a perfect strategic position for us, why bother attacking a low priority target like Paisly? Instead of securing Paisland and raiding Terran, to the shame of the allied forces in Paisly? Besides which, an attack on Paisly would have worked well for Aurvandil, as I recall you barely had any infantry on the walls, so once the Chevaliers reached the walls it would be an easy fight.

Quite simply we saw the effort you were putting into the defence of Paisly and considered it a great jest to circumvent it and render it quite irrelevant by not validating it with an assault. You don't value the stratagem behind it, you trapped yourself in Paisly whilst we held Paisland stopping you from leaving, then looted Terran at our leisure and left when we felt like it, leaving your combined army redundant for the entire campaign. Which, to us was both strategically sound (We trapped you in your own region and made you irrelevant for an entire campaign) and amusing (Thwarting your efforts and mocking them by trapping you in your own defence) and to an extent, it was done to antagonise D'Hara over their attack on the Provincia, it was almost a declaration of "We aren't even mad that you destroyed it, we'll recreate it when it pleases us not when you think we should" and as an extension, Aurvandil doesn't like to be predictable, and it would have been predictable to lay a siege any observer could have foretold weeks in advance.

You should remember, Mendicant likes to amuse himself with jests particularly in war, and Aurvandil likes to be unexpected and do something to the ire of their opponents, and of course, we feel perfectly secure in our current position to do this kind of thing, after everything we feel that we can drag this war out as long as we like though the longevity of this war thus far has been due to the impotence of our armies to bring a swift conclusion and Mendicant's diplomacy to secure peace. That said, another thing is, Aurvandil doesn't know why it fights, we fight because we can't get peace, but we don't particularly fight for any objective, but because we have to otherwise our enemies will take liberty of absence in battle, so our quite bipolar military policy in the war reflects that. We are an army that fights because we don't know how to get peace, which is no way to fight.

Raid Terran? You were too weak to strike any of their cities, and were eventually forced to retreat without any significant damage. Secure Paisland? You've already lost it. Antagonize D'Hara? We've killed the squatters and retaken our city, eliminated your flag from our old lands.

But you can chant it off as an amazing victorious campaign if you wish.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on December 12, 2012, 01:57:46 AM
But you can chant it off as an amazing victorious campaign if you wish.

You should be well aware by now that Aurvandil does nothing but make grandiose and erroneous claims about pretty much. . .everything.  It's part of their charm.  Like talking with a habitual liar - the amusement comes from seeing how great the lie they weave becomes.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 12, 2012, 02:59:25 AM
The difference is Chénier, I was being serious without need of idle boast and self complimenting auto fellatio as opposed to your passive aggressive sarcasm.

We knew it would annoy you more to just ignore your defence of Paisly entirely, as you seemed so set in the belief Aurvandil valued Paisly enough to warrant an attack regardless of the situation. We had you bottled in Paisly, which allowed us to raid Terran whilst you were too impotent to do anything about it, even as a combined army, we even forced Terran to return home by sea rather than land. It was a perfect strategic position for us, why bother attacking a low priority target like Paisly? Instead of securing Paisland and raiding Terran, to the shame of the allied forces in Paisly? Besides which, an attack on Paisly would have worked well for Aurvandil, as I recall you barely had any infantry on the walls, so once the Chevaliers reached the walls it would be an easy fight.

Quite simply we saw the effort you were putting into the defence of Paisly and considered it a great jest to circumvent it and render it quite irrelevant by not validating it with an assault. You don't value the stratagem behind it, you trapped yourself in Paisly whilst we held Paisland stopping you from leaving, then looted Terran at our leisure and left when we felt like it, leaving your combined army redundant for the entire campaign. Which, to us was both strategically sound (We trapped you in your own region and made you irrelevant for an entire campaign) and amusing (Thwarting your efforts and mocking them by trapping you in your own defence) and to an extent, it was done to antagonise D'Hara over their attack on the Provincia, it was almost a declaration of "We aren't even mad that you destroyed it, we'll recreate it when it pleases us not when you think we should" and as an extension, Aurvandil doesn't like to be predictable, and it would have been predictable to lay a siege any observer could have foretold weeks in advance.

You should remember, Mendicant likes to amuse himself with jests particularly in war, and Aurvandil likes to be unexpected and do something to the ire of their opponents, and of course, we feel perfectly secure in our current position to do this kind of thing, after everything we feel that we can drag this war out as long as we like though the longevity of this war thus far has been due to the impotence of our armies to bring a swift conclusion and Mendicant's diplomacy to secure peace. That said, another thing is, Aurvandil doesn't know why it fights, we fight because we can't get peace, but we don't particularly fight for any objective, but because we have to otherwise our enemies will take liberty of absence in battle, so our quite bipolar military policy in the war reflects that. We are an army that fights because we don't know how to get peace, which is no way to fight.

You could get peace by stepping down, renouncing your whole culture, converting to an extant religion, executing your current council, and swearing to become a republic.

Cheers!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 12, 2012, 04:03:57 AM
You could get peace by stepping down, renouncing your whole culture, converting to an extant religion, executing your current council, and swearing to become a republic.

Cheers!

You forgot ceding stolen lands back to Barca, plus an extra as compensation, and a quarterly tribute.

All of that together would start appearing as reasonable.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on December 12, 2012, 04:08:00 AM
You forgot ceding stolen lands back to Barca

I'm pretty sure you guys claimed that would NEVER happen, despite Madina's ample warnings. 
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 12, 2012, 06:50:57 AM
I'm pretty sure you guys claimed that would NEVER happen, despite Madina's ample warnings.

No, Barca claimed it would never happen, D'Hara claimed it wasn't expedient to intervene at the time, and Terran didn't get the war we wanted.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on December 12, 2012, 08:30:14 AM
Why don't you guys go back to begging SA to march down with their glorious army and fight your war for you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on December 12, 2012, 08:53:39 AM
Why don't you guys go back to begging SA to march down with their glorious army and fight your war for you.

You think we've stopped doing that?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 12, 2012, 10:20:23 AM
Why don't you guys go back to begging SA to march down with their glorious army and fight your war for you.

Maybe for a different reason, but they are also in war with Aurvandil. It would be like the best birthday parties: a lot of different people that don't know each others but interact kindly by sharing the same joy.  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 12, 2012, 12:39:28 PM
I'm pretty sure you guys claimed that would NEVER happen, despite Madina's ample warnings.

Meh, many people are happy that Madina got destroyed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on December 12, 2012, 01:11:03 PM
Meh, many people are happy that Madina got destroyed.

haha i geuss, that still doesn't change the fact that Barca was very very naive to trust Aurvendil 'n support them.
I laughed hard when i heard of Aurvendil attacking them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 12, 2012, 01:27:12 PM
haha i geuss, that still doesn't change the fact that Barca was very very naive to trust Aurvendil 'n support them.
I laughed hard when i heard of Aurvendil attacking them.

Indeed, perhaps we shoulda destroyed Aurvandil, and then Madina ourselves.

Wouldn't mind seeing a new Madina now, just felt like they had to suffer a little.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on December 12, 2012, 01:53:38 PM

Wouldn't mind seeing a new Madina now, just felt like they had to suffer a little.

Why?
i must agree that this is probably more fun though.
It gave me a great rp oportunity.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 12, 2012, 04:10:40 PM
Indeed, perhaps we shoulda destroyed Aurvandil,

Hate to say I told you so, but...

Scratch that, I LOVE to say I told you so.

I told you so.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 12, 2012, 04:32:11 PM
Raid Terran? You were too weak to strike any of their cities, and were eventually forced to retreat without any significant damage. Secure Paisland? You've already lost it. Antagonize D'Hara? We've killed the squatters and retaken our city, eliminated your flag from our old lands.

But you can chant it off as an amazing victorious campaign if you wish.

We raided where we pleased.

We secured Paisland for it's intended purpose, and abandoned it when it became inconvenient, which if you haven't noticed is how Aurvandil operates in the north, we take the regions then ditch them once they have served a purpose, they aren't worth a defence or the military resources to hold. This is how we have always functioned in the north as you should have noticed, we just turn up north and you consistently abandon the regions defence which means we can take them if we want them then abandon them without consequence, you won't hold them against us and we don't need to keep them to hold them against you on a long term basis. As for Paisland, well it has served a great roleplay purpose, not that that is anything to do with D'Hara, and it gave us a great laugh to see Iashalur spectacularly fail to attack it, and D'Hara to actually flee around the region to take over Maeotis, rather than to dare to fight Matharis, which we determined was a great cause of shame to your armies.

As for an amazing victorious campaign? Are you being deliberately dense? In my previous post I made it clear I thought the entire campaign was a limp affair that achieved little, but of course you'd have to ignore that otherwise you wouldn't be able to make arsey remarks to try and belittle my post.

You could get peace by stepping down, renouncing your whole culture, converting to an extant religion, executing your current council, and swearing to become a republic.

Cheers!

It'll be faster and easier to rogue Terran, just saying.

You forgot ceding stolen lands back to Barca, plus an extra as compensation, and a quarterly tribute.

All of that together would start appearing as reasonable.

All of that was previously offered, and it was refused in favour of war, so you know.

You had your chance and you turned your nose up at the offer.

Indeed, perhaps we shoulda destroyed Aurvandil, and then Madina ourselves.

Wouldn't mind seeing a new Madina now, just felt like they had to suffer a little.

I doubt D'Hara would have been man enough to make a difference in the Madina war, all of your previous wars assert such. D'Hara can't fight, even now they are spectacularly failing to actually... war Aurvandil despite the fact we give you ample opportunity when we spend weeks refitting and holding banquets in Candiels or running lack lustre take overs in our rogue lands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 12, 2012, 07:44:26 PM
All of that was previously offered, and it was refused in favour of war, so you know.

You had your chance and you turned your nose up at the offer.

Do you mean that you offered Barca to give back Gallaecia, Kydonia and Celtiberia? I'd like to know a little bit more about that as I find it something less than probable. I won't even mention the quarterly tribute... (seriously you offered it too?) I don't know why but I guess there's something missing here, I resist the idea of the nobles of Aurvandil returning Barca these regions.

C'mon, even the "Grandiose et Magnifique Institution pour la Création des Cartographies Aurvandiliennes" had artistically painted its domain comprising these regions!  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 12, 2012, 08:46:08 PM
Do you mean that you offered Barca to give back Gallaecia, Kydonia and Celtiberia? I'd like to know a little bit more about that as I find it something less than probable. I won't even mention the quarterly tribute... (seriously you offered it too?) I don't know why but I guess there's something missing here, I resist the idea of the nobles of Aurvandil returning Barca these regions.

C'mon, even the "Grandiose et Magnifique Institution pour la Création des Cartographies Aurvandiliennes" had artistically painted its domain comprising these regions!  ::)

He offered to return them, as I recall, provided that Barca made unspecified and vague internal changes: he refused to give any suggestions about what such changes would be. They were widely interpreted in the Moot as being reform to a monarchy, abandonment of the Moot, and special legal relationships with Aurvandi nobles and Aurvandil itself. When we tried to figure out if that was what Mendicant actually wanted, our perception was that he dodged the question.

He, the player, has asserted many times that we misunderstood what was going on. And that may be the case, he may be right; but our perception of it was that he wanted to make Barca a vassal state and disassemble the Moot. Whether our perception was "true" or not depends on which story you believe; and frankly both our stories have some big holes in them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 12, 2012, 09:26:19 PM
Do you mean that you offered Barca to give back Gallaecia, Kydonia and Celtiberia? I'd like to know a little bit more about that as I find it something less than probable. I won't even mention the quarterly tribute... (seriously you offered it too?) I don't know why but I guess there's something missing here, I resist the idea of the nobles of Aurvandil returning Barca these regions.

C'mon, even the "Grandiose et Magnifique Institution pour la Création des Cartographies Aurvandiliennes" had artistically painted its domain comprising these regions!  ::)

Oh well the return of the regions and the tribute was heavily implied when Mendicant made it clear he would give Barca whatever they wanted in reason to get a peace they're happy about and redresses the damage inflicted upon their regions and their honour in war. And Aurvandil loves to flaunt its gold and how better than by being generous to a poor third world realm like Barca? I know for certain Mendicant mentioned these specifically to one or two people, I can't remember who however. But it was considered that we insisted upon rebuilding their fortifications personally until we decided that would have been too patronising.

Yes, well we were happy to give up the regions in a way, to give them away is to deny their worth and to thus, extol the value of our own lands and our inherent wealth. That is until food production got changed and most of our regions became god awful producers of barely anything except for the northern marches (Gallaecia, Kydonia and Celtiberia).

And we had drawn those regions to the map, because it looked better geographically, it sort of... completed the peninsula if you look at it.

He offered to return them, as I recall, provided that Barca made unspecified and vague internal changes: he refused to give any suggestions about what such changes would be. They were widely interpreted in the Moot as being reform to a monarchy, abandonment of the Moot, and special legal relationships with Aurvandi nobles and Aurvandil itself. When we tried to figure out if that was what Mendicant actually wanted, our perception was that he dodged the question.

He, the player, has asserted many times that we misunderstood what was going on. And that may be the case, he may be right; but our perception of it was that he wanted to make Barca a vassal state and disassemble the Moot. Whether our perception was "true" or not depends on which story you believe; and frankly both our stories have some big holes in them.

We never wanted Barca to become a monarchy, or leave the Moot and I'm sure Mendicant never even implied or suggested anything to give that impression. But I imagine peoples imaginations run wild in the Moot. What we wanted was for Barca to do something about the corruption in their Republic, and a corrupt republic has no right to become a Monarchy in Mendicant's eyes, it would sully Monarchism.

I considered asking Barca to become a vassal state, but we considered it to be an insult to Aurvandil. Aurvandil fights alone and needs no vassal states, anything less implies a weakness, to say we need a realm to support us is to imply we need help and that would shame our pride and our honour.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 12, 2012, 10:44:17 PM
Well, now we've got the two versions of the story. One of them, short on details and concise; the other one... Noblesse, be nice and don't talk just for once directly from Mendicant's mouth, for non English-speakers sake, would you?  ::)

Oh well the return of the regions and the tribute was heavily implied when Mendicant made it clear he would give Barca whatever they wanted in reason to get a peace they're happy about and redresses the damage inflicted upon their regions and their honour in war. And Aurvandil loves to flaunt its gold and how better than by being generous to a poor third world realm like Barca? I know for certain Mendicant mentioned these specifically to one or two people, I can't remember who however. But it was considered that we insisted upon rebuilding their fortifications personally until we decided that would have been too patronising.

Dear... that really touched me. How in the world such altruistic and philanthropist person becomes an absolute monarch? That's indeed a great deed and explains the nature of your character's name. In fact, maybe you should call him Mendiant ("Beggar" in French) as it's clear you find virtue in spreading gold for "poor third world realms". Real world would be a better place if there would be more Aurvandils and Mendicants around.  :P

Yes, well we were happy to give up the regions in a way, to give them away is to deny their worth and to thus, extol the value of our own lands. That is until food production got changed and most of our regions became god awful producers of barely anything except for the northern marches (Gallaecia, Kydonia and Celtiberia).

And we had drawn those regions to the map, because it looked better geographically, it sort of... completed the peninsula if you look at it.

So that means you... would have given them back or not? If your own regions were unable to feed the "Grandiose Armée", it would be inconvenient to return them to their original owners I guess. Was it the case? Hmm, it's curious how the worth of some regions can change so drastically. But I agree with you, the skilled Aurvandilian cartographers showed everyone in Dwilight a very interesting vision of its geography. How did you manage to teach them how to use Paint so nicely?

We never wanted Barca to become a monarchy, or leave the Moot and I'm sure Mendicant never even implied or suggested anything to give that impression. But I imagine peoples imaginations run wild in the Moot. What we wanted was for Barca to do something about the corruption in their Republic, and a corrupt republic has no right to become a Monarchy in Mendicant's eyes, it would sully Monarchism.

I considered asking Barca to become a vassal state, but we considered it to be an insult to Aurvandil. Aurvandil fights alone and needs no vassal states, anything less implies a weakness, to say we need a realm to support us is to imply we need help and that would shame us.

So, apart from the renewed value of the marches in the Mendicontinent, the other condition was for Barca to solve the corruption issues? And that is because... you dislike corruption wherever it comes up? Moreover, maybe to be completely accurate to your comment about vassals and self-sufficiency, we shouldn't see any green sign in Aurvandil diplomatic relations. Oh well, maybe you are in peace with other realms just to spread generosity all over Dwilight.  ;D

I have to say that I can't decide between both opinions yet. Sincerely, as Vellos said, both of the stories have got huge holes. I'd really like to know a little bit more about the corruption in Barca in that times, if someone could kindly tell me more about it. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 12, 2012, 10:48:07 PM
So what was so corrupt about Barca? I have heard plenty of times from you that they are corrupt but never how they are corrupt. It's like if you were an employer and told an employee, "Look at all these problems with you. If you don't want to be fired you better fix them." They have no idea what is wrong them in your eyes and thus no way to fix whatever is supposedly wrong.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 13, 2012, 09:59:01 PM
Dear... that really touched me. How in the world such altruistic and philanthropist person becomes an absolute monarch? That's indeed a great deed and explains the nature of your character's name. In fact, maybe you should call him Mendiant ("Beggar" in French) as it's clear you find virtue in spreading gold for "poor third world realms". Real world would be a better place if there would be more Aurvandils and Mendicants around.  :P

How does one become a Monarch (Mendicant is a limited Monarch, but everyone pretends otherwise)  without being generous with their gold? A good liege is a gold giver, one who rewards service and shares his wealth. Of course, it was considered important for Medieval monarchs to be generous with their gold. But, for Mendicant it has nothing to do with altruism or philanthropy, merely flashing the cash by treating it with contempt and derision. Mendicant's treasury didn't get reckoned to be eternal by him not being profligate with it, after all. A king must wealthier than any other and more generous as well, after all.

So that means you... would have given them back or not? If your own regions were unable to feed the "Grandiose Armée", it would be inconvenient to return them to their original owners I guess. Was it the case? Hmm, it's curious how the worth of some regions can change so drastically. But I agree with you, the skilled Aurvandilian cartographers showed everyone in Dwilight a very interesting vision of its geography. How did you manage to teach them how to use Paint so nicely?

It is the Royaliste Campagne de L'armée rather than the "Grandiose Armée" which I think should be Grande Armée anyway, and never ever ever IC call us "Aurvandilian" it won't go down well, at best we tolerate Aurvandilan, but we expect to be called Orvandeaux.

But it means, that whilst Mendicant said he was happy to hand them over, I was rather glad the Veinsormoot didn't make me live up to that obligation. It would have been... inconvenient.

So, apart from the renewed value of the marches in the Mendicontinent, the other condition was for Barca to solve the corruption issues? And that is because... you dislike corruption wherever it comes up? Moreover, maybe to be completely accurate to your comment about vassals and self-sufficiency, we shouldn't see any green sign in Aurvandil diplomatic relations. Oh well, maybe you are in peace with other realms just to spread generosity all over Dwilight.  ;D

It's because Mendicant doesn't like corrupt Republics, it's an offence to his sense of decency and good governance. And he would otherwise feel obligated to liberate such people from the tyrannical corruption of their Republic, such as what the Orvandeaux had to suffer in the Madinian Republic. It's also because the Barcan's put up gold for the death of Mendicant, which was an attack upon the Monarchy and thus we demanded action in Barca.

So what was so corrupt about Barca? I have heard plenty of times from you that they are corrupt but never how they are corrupt. It's like if you were an employer and told an employee, "Look at all these problems with you. If you don't want to be fired you better fix them." They have no idea what is wrong them in your eyes and thus no way to fix whatever is supposedly wrong.

Something about corrupt dukes, electoral tyranny, unjust banishments and a Senatorial old guard hoarding power and offering gold for the death of rival politicians and lords in Barca that caused the northern marches to defect to Aurvandil, to seek sanctuary from the Barcan political system that tried to have them killed, banished and marginalised.

I told them what was wrong in Barca, and what I wanted changing, but left it up to them to decide how they wanted to do it. Suffice to say, they didn't think of anything and instead wasted Mendicant's time and then acted offended when we weren't pleased.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 13, 2012, 10:43:08 PM
To your last paragraph, I believe that's where the issue came in. I have only heard that you complained about corruption without saying what was corrupt thus they didn't know what to fix. I read everything on the Dwilight board that was posted at that time and that was the similar OOC things I was hearing. Honestly what you did was really idiotic if you didn't intend for it to happen the way it did, as I doubt you have any solutions, because there aren't any solutions really.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 13, 2012, 11:49:25 PM
Which meant Barca could literally do anything they liked about it, aside from nothing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 14, 2012, 01:14:06 AM
Which meant Barca could literally do anything they liked about it, aside from nothing.
whats one thing they could have done?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 14, 2012, 01:14:42 AM
It is the Royaliste Campagne de L'armée rather than the "Grandiose Armée" which I think should be Grande Armée anyway, and never ever ever IC call us "Aurvandilian" it won't go down well, at best we tolerate Aurvandilan, but we expect to be called Orvandeaux.

But it means, that whilst Mendicant said he was happy to hand them over, I was rather glad the Veinsormoot didn't make me live up to that obligation. It would have been... inconvenient.

Please excuse me if I rather to use (ever ever ever) "Aurvandilian" in this forum. I think you don't, but I like to write as a player rather than a character. I think you have used some much more disrespectful words to talk about the realm my character is from. Moreover, some other of your realm-mates compared Aurvandil with Rome, and Dwilight as its Carthague; I think you don't need another player to compare you with nothing less than the mighty army of Napoleon. You can do it yourself if you like. And as far as I know, "grandiose" is a correctly written French word.  :D

What does "Royaliste Campagne de l'Armée" mean? Royal Campaign of the Army? Maybe I'm wrong, but "Armée Royaliste de Campagne" maybe fits better if you call that the army, rather than a certain campaign in a war.

Regarding the devolution of the regions, I think Aurvandilians found a candy that just came free. I find a little bit inconsistent the IC argument you used however. If you like to play Mendicant arrogant and disdainful towards anything out of the Mendicontinent, I'd expect him to just don't care about what a neighbour realm does with its government. You have called Barcans "the most servile people", "poor third world realm"... but some of them deserve your mercy if you can impose the changes you want in their politics.

About the bounty on Mendicant's head, I'm not sure but I think last time I saw it, there were about 900 gold coins on it. I'm sure it was a good amount, so I guess not just Barcans (if the first bounty was put by some of them) would like to see Mendicant's head on a silver bowl. It's not so bad, just another kind of notoriety that you like to feed as it seems.

In conclusion, I guess you could keep by force those regions, so you kept them. You did well, they resulted to be indispensable as your regions were "god awful producers of barely anything". Anyway a very important part in this game is about intrigue, propaganda, etc. so you invented an IC argument that could show Aurvandilians' power over another realm apart from military issues. That match with your taste for humiliation. Perfectly acceptable, but in my opinion even a little bit rude.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 14, 2012, 02:00:09 AM
Please excuse me if I rather to use (ever ever ever) "Aurvandilian" in this forum. I think you don't, but I like to write as a player rather than a character. I think you have used some much more disrespectful words to talk about the realm my character is from. Moreover, some other of your realm-mates compared Aurvandil with Rome, and Dwilight as its Carthague; I think you don't need another player to compare you with nothing less than the mighty army of Napoleon. You can do it yourself if you like. And as far as I know, "grandiose" is a correctly written French word.  :D

Oh don't worry about it, I was just saying it for future reference, we take exception to Aurvandilian and believe it to be a hideous denonym worthy of revilement.

And I don't think I have used disrespectful words to talk about Barca, per se, but I have said disrespectful things, mostly to an extent to be facetious or light heartedly antagonistic, but I don't know if that comes across as much as I think it does.

What does "Royaliste Campagne de l'Armée" mean? Royal Campaign of the Army? Maybe I'm wrong, but "Armée Royaliste de Campagne" maybe fits better if you call that the army, rather than a certain campaign in a war.

I forget, French isn't high up on my list of foreign languages I've made an attempt to learn. Which I should probably correct if I am imitating it in BM, though the use of French in Aurvandil is mostly to give a ... feel of Frenchiness rather than to be specifically accurate.

Regarding the devolution of the regions, I think Aurvandilians found a candy that just came free. I find a little bit inconsistent the IC argument you used however. If you like to play Mendicant arrogant and disdainful towards anything out of the Mendicontinent, I'd expect him to just don't care about what a neighbour realm does with its government. You have called Barcans "the most servile people", "poor third world realm"... but some of them deserve your mercy if you can impose the changes you want in their politics.

Mendicant is disdainful of everything, in the Mendicontinent and otherwise, he's the Highest of Sovereign's, very little in this world is worthy of him and he likes to make that clear. However, he also deigns to partake in chivalry and and pursuit of war and honour thereof, which means he must look to his borders as a Monarch can hardly take part in "private wars" as were popular in France during the age, not that the game mechanics would support such a thing sadly. As a note, Barca and Aurvandil almost held a special relationship, they both grew up alongside each other in hardship with mutual support, and Barca were considered the friends of Aurvandil, though they refused an alliance. In short, Mendicant doesn't care on a personal level, but every now and then he sort of has to pretend to care on a professional level and do his duties as a ruler which includes ensuring the borders of the Commonwealth don't have a dangerous and corrupt Republic on its borders.

But it wasn't until Mendicant was personally insulted on multiple occasions that he actually began to care on a personal level, thus the war was started.  He had to march to defend his name and honour and seek redress from those who would sully it so unjustly, and to his face.

Just to clarify to you, Mendicant has referred to Barca as a "most servile people" whilst I the player have called them a third world country (As you said I never really make myself clear on the distinction sometimes)  but to answer your point, there was a time when Aurvandil believed Barca was worth saving and defending, and that was before they drew on the benevolence and protection of Haktoo, and it is then that Mendicant declared them a rogue non-state and a most servile people undeserving of the treatment of a genuine, legitimate realm.

About the bounty on Mendicant's head, I'm not sure but I think last time I saw it, there were about 900 gold coins on it. I'm sure it was a good amount, so I guess not just Barcans (if the first bounty was put by some of them) would like to see Mendicant's head on a silver bowl. It's not so bad, just another kind of notoriety that you like to feed as it seems.

The Barcan's started the bounty, though now it is at a good 1800, Mendicant has surpassed even senior controversial figures such as Allison, clearly he must be doing something right.

In conclusion, I guess you could keep by force those regions, so you kept them. You did well, they resulted to be indispensable as your regions were "god awful producers of barely anything". Anyway a very important part in this game is about intrigue, propaganda, etc. so you invented an IC argument that could show Aurvandilians' power over another realm apart from military issues. That match with your taste for humiliation. Perfectly acceptable, but in my opinion even a little bit rude.

On an OOC level, we wanted the regions, on an IC level we were happy to give them back, that is where the inconsistencies come from.

And Aurvandil despises humiliation, Mendicant has made it clear our "path of conquest" is where we defeat our foes, but not humiliate them, where we best them but not conquer them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 14, 2012, 02:00:56 AM
whats one thing they could have done?

Oh I don't know, scribbled on a piece of toast?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Hroppa on December 14, 2012, 02:11:33 AM
My french is rusty, but I believe campagne... means countryside. So your army there is called the Royal Countryside of the Army.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 14, 2012, 02:27:33 AM
Oh I don't know, scribbled on a piece of toast?
So you wanted to have them do something so you could say you dealt with it, to your realm. Made that a bit more obvious and we wouldn't be in this situation though it is a fun one.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 14, 2012, 02:41:58 AM
What does "Royaliste Campagne de l'Armée" mean? Royal Campaign of the Army? Maybe I'm wrong, but "Armée Royaliste de Campagne" maybe fits better if you call that the army, rather than a certain campaign in a war.

It means "Royalist Campagne of the Army". Which, imo, means nothing. It's best to consider it as mock-French. Pretty much all of the "French" they use doesn't mean a thing, and even google translate would probably yield better French.

My french is rusty, but I believe campagne... means countryside. So your army there is called the Royal Countryside of the Army.

Yes. It means countryside. However, as countryside, it's a noun, not an adjective. Royalist means the same in English as in French. And as such, it makes no sense here.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on December 14, 2012, 09:23:16 AM
My french is rusty, but I believe campagne... means countryside. So your army there is called the Royal Countryside of the Army.


"Campagne militaire" = "Military campaign".

Literally, it does mean countryside or fields; it can be used both as in "field of corn" or as in "field army".
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on December 14, 2012, 09:30:11 AM
I forget, French isn't high up on my list of foreign languages I've made an attempt to learn. Which I should probably correct if I am imitating it in BM, though the use of French in Aurvandil is mostly to give a ... feel of Frenchiness rather than to be specifically accurate.

If you're interested:

Cour Impériale De La Noblesse De Chevalerie -> More or less grammatical, although it's a weird construction.
Assemblée de Royal Sovereign l'armée du Haut -> Assemblée Royale Souveraine de l'Armée du Haut
Royaliste Campagne de L'armée -> Armée de Campagne Royaliste
Rois Propriétaire Gardes Impériaux -> I assume you mean "King's household"? The it would be Gardes Impériaux de la Chancellerie
Orvandeaux Battaillon Etrangere -> Bataillon Etranger d'Orvandeaux
Caraque de la sang -> Caraque du Sang or Caraque de Sang
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on December 14, 2012, 10:03:47 AM
Rois Propriétaire Gardes Impériaux -> I assume you mean "King's household"? The it would be Gardes Impériaux de la Chancellerie... or maybe -> Gardes Impériaux de la Maison du Roi?

I think I had a funken book about the French Army in the seven years war... It had some cool units names...  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on December 14, 2012, 10:15:40 AM
or maybe -> Gardes Impériaux de la Maison du Roi?

Yep, that works too.

Then there's the problem of deciding if you're an emperor or a king. It sounds like imperial guards are guarding the king, which would mean the king is a prisoner.....
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 14, 2012, 10:41:45 AM
Have not read all the details.

But I did see NoblesseChevalier claim he told Barca what was wrong.

That's either an outright OOC lie, or the Barcan characters are all exceptionally secretive. Consider the fact that, to this day, no member of the Moot has ever gone on record in any sense documenting having ever received any message from any authority in Aurvandil identifying a definition of "corruption" or any method to resolve it.

Let's consider the situation here.

3 nobles with family histories very, very similar to many nobles in Aurvandil all show up in Barca. They all know each other. They never participate in realm politics except to make similar complaints about military matters. They demand to have their own army, and support each other in elections. They have pro-Aurvandil politics to a strangely high degree.

Then when there is a political attempt to reduce their influence ("corruption" or "politics," eye of the beholder), they all change their allegiance to Aurvandil, simultaneous with Aurvandil reneging on the treaty that allowed it to beat Madina and hold Evanburg undisturbed despite Barca's claim and the Moot's support of that claim.

Mendicant then states that he will not return the regions or discipline the nobles involved because Barca is corrupt. When asked to specify the corruption, the only example he gives is that some nobles set bounties on other nobles (which is a pretty low bar for corruption in BM if you ask me). When asked what he proposes to be done about it, he offers no answer. When asked why he gives no answer, he states that Barca is beneath him. Why is Barca beneath him? Because he's the supreme sovereign or whatever.

And as supreme sovereign (Moot's internal reasoning here, which, when presented to Mendicant ICly, he took offense at and, instead of responding to the argument, quibbled over perceived effrontery), Mendicant redrew maps to redefine established geography to include those lands as part of his fundamentally sovereign lands. He had already announced the intention to form a realm in Madina (another monarchy).

Then, while the issue was growing, he shows up and crushes Barca with a giant army rather out of the blue, offending their republican institutions while he's at it. He continues to demand changes but won't say what. Meanwhile, he refuses to conduct collective negotiations with the Moot, and actively and concretely attempts to engineer separate peaces with different Moot realms.

In sum:
Our logic was clear. We see a monarch with a repeated pattern of expansionism and a worldview fundamentally incompatible with ours. We see rampant disrespect of claims and treaty law, the bedrocks of our system. We see a military force which knows no respect for diplomacy. We see obscure demands made and massive punishment when they are not met. We see a rhetoric of generosity combined with a massive display of force. We see active efforts which amount to the sowing of dissension among Moot realms.

In sum, it looks pretty darn like a massive plot to divide and conquer the Moot, replacing the Republican southwest with a Monarchist southwest (see: Provincia di Fiorenza). Maybe we were wrong– that's possible. I'm just saying that given the facts as they were, our logic was not faulty– it made quite a bit of sense (and, I think, still does).

Maybe our reasoning was wrong, that's entirely possible. But
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 14, 2012, 10:46:35 AM
Something about corrupt dukes, electoral tyranny, unjust banishments and a Senatorial old guard hoarding power and offering gold for the death of rival politicians and lords in Barca that caused the northern marches to defect to Aurvandil, to seek sanctuary from the Barcan political system that tried to have them killed, banished and marginalised.

I told them what was wrong in Barca, and what I wanted changing, but left it up to them to decide how they wanted to do it. Suffice to say, they didn't think of anything and instead wasted Mendicant's time and then acted offended when we weren't pleased.

"Electoral tyranny"– which didn't exist and is a non sequitur to begin with
"Corrupt dukes"– wherein corruption consisted of, as I recall, not subsidizing the "Freikorps" army (oh and picking a nazi-associated army name in a game based in Germany was really unfortunate too)
"Unjust banishments"– you mean like for expressing loyalty to a different realm and threatening to secede (eventually doing so)
"Old guard hoarding power"– Welcome to Battlemaster
"Offering [bounties]"– You have a point on this, if it's true– and I gather some Barcans did in fact confess to this. But if they didn't actually confess, then you can't prove it– bounties are anonymous

Giving a list of words does not mean you told someone what was wrong.

And there's a fundamental contradiction in saying that you told them "what [you] wanted changing" and your earlier presumption of detached superiority and non-involvement. You can't have it both ways. Either you had an interventionist intent or you did not.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 14, 2012, 11:53:22 AM
So you wanted to have them do something so you could say you dealt with it, to your realm. Made that a bit more obvious and we wouldn't be in this situation though it is a fun one.

I did make it obvious, I said in clear terms do something, anything, just show that you're doing something about it and I'll be satisfied the corruption isn't going to be a future issue for Aurvandil. I also hinted strongly that I wanted judicial trials but Barca dismissed that as a waste of time.

It means "Royalist Campagne of the Army". Which, imo, means nothing. It's best to consider it as mock-French. Pretty much all of the "French" they use doesn't mean a thing, and even google translate would probably yield better French.

Yes. It means countryside. However, as countryside, it's a noun, not an adjective. Royalist means the same in English as in French. And as such, it makes no sense here.

Yes well Orvandeaux (The language of Aurvandil) is mock French, as put above it's to give you a taster for roleplay purposes, not to be specifically accurate. I would thank you to not be so critical of our efforts.

If you're interested:

Cour Impériale De La Noblesse De Chevalerie -> More or less grammatical, although it's a weird construction.
Assemblée de Royal Sovereign l'armée du Haut -> Assemblée Royale Souveraine de l'Armée du Haut
Royaliste Campagne de L'armée -> Armée de Campagne Royaliste
Rois Propriétaire Gardes Impériaux -> I assume you mean "King's household"? The it would be Gardes Impériaux de la Chancellerie
Orvandeaux Battaillon Etrangere -> Bataillon Etranger d'Orvandeaux
Caraque de la sang -> Caraque du Sang or Caraque de Sang

Thank you for the clarification, naturally the French would order their grammar differently to the English.

For Rois Proprietaire, I got that of Wikipedia I think (Reputable as ever) and I think it's meant to be "King's Imperial Household Guard".
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 14, 2012, 12:04:49 PM
Have not read all the details.

But I did see NoblesseChevalier claim he told Barca what was wrong.

That's either an outright OOC lie, or the Barcan characters are all exceptionally secretive. Consider the fact that, to this day, no member of the Moot has ever gone on record in any sense documenting having ever received any message from any authority in Aurvandil identifying a definition of "corruption" or any method to resolve it.

I did, I explained it in great detail and I'm sure I even sent a letter explaining it to Terran, though my memory might be faulty there. I told them step by step, what I saw was wrong, and what I was told was wrong. Anything less would be inefficient.


3 nobles with family histories very, very similar to many nobles in Aurvandil all show up in Barca. They all know each other. They never participate in realm politics except to make similar complaints about military matters. They demand to have their own army, and support each other in elections. They have pro-Aurvandil politics to a strangely high degree.

!@#$ing Prussians for you then eh?

Mendicant then states that he will not return the regions or discipline the nobles involved because Barca is corrupt. When asked to specify the corruption, the only example he gives is that some nobles set bounties on other nobles (which is a pretty low bar for corruption in BM if you ask me). When asked what he proposes to be done about it, he offers no answer. When asked why he gives no answer, he states that Barca is beneath him. Why is Barca beneath him? Because he's the supreme sovereign or whatever.

Mendicant said he wouldn't discipline the nobles because they swore themselves to him and where thus under his protection, he didn't say he wouldn't return the regions but did say he would be happy to hand them over on a condition.

When did Mendicant give no answer because Barca was beneath him? That... never, ever happened. And Mendicant did make proposals, but made it clear at the same time he was speculating and wasn't in a position to actually tell them what to do about it.

And as supreme sovereign (Moot's internal reasoning here, which, when presented to Mendicant ICly, he took offense at and, instead of responding to the argument, quibbled over perceived effrontery), Mendicant redrew maps to redefine established geography to include those lands as part of his fundamentally sovereign lands. He had already announced the intention to form a realm in Madina (another monarchy).

Actually the maps were created some time before this.

And the realm in Madina is not a Monarchy, the Averothoi despise Monarchy having overthrown a monarchy in Averoth, they're a Freestate, not a Monarchy. This could not have been made more apparent.

Then, while the issue was growing, he shows up and crushes Barca with a giant army rather out of the blue, offending their republican institutions while he's at it. He continues to demand changes but won't say what. Meanwhile, he refuses to conduct collective negotiations with the Moot, and actively and concretely attempts to engineer separate peaces with different Moot realms.

Mendicant invaded Rettleville because the Duke threatened him with war and insulted him on several occasions, to Mendicant's face, in his own Palais. Aurvandil thus had a quarrel with the Duke and we sort redress in combat, think of it as a duel as was the dynamic of the war.

I never tried to engineer separate peace's with the Moot until after they declared war, before that I made it clear to all of them as a group that I wanted to avoid a war.

In sum:
Our logic was clear. We see a monarch with a repeated pattern of expansionism and a worldview fundamentally incompatible with ours. We see rampant disrespect of claims and treaty law, the bedrocks of our system. We see a military force which knows no respect for diplomacy. We see obscure demands made and massive punishment when they are not met. We see a rhetoric of generosity combined with a massive display of force. We see active efforts which amount to the sowing of dissension among Moot realms.

Yes, I suppose I agree, that is an accurate way to see things.

In sum, it looks pretty darn like a massive plot to divide and conquer the Moot, replacing the Republican southwest with a Monarchist southwest (see: Provincia di Fiorenza). Maybe we were wrong– that's possible. I'm just saying that given the facts as they were, our logic was not faulty– it made quite a bit of sense (and, I think, still does).

Maybe our reasoning was wrong, that's entirely possible. But

Mendicant spent too much time trying to befriend Barca and D'Hara to have ever wanted to divide and conquer the Moot. Hell, he even tried being friends with Terran but they didn't want to know and snubbed him utterly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 14, 2012, 12:58:51 PM
I won't say anything about the ever-lasting "Barcan corruption" issue, as I rather to read what the protagonists involved have to say about it. But if Mendicant protected some rebelled nobles from a realm with which he wanted some kind of peace, that's not a very honourable way of doing politics. Even worse if they really acted in the way Vellos describes. If that's accurate, he protected traitors that acted very strangely towards the realm they joined in first instance. That's not what I would expect from a king that insists so pompously on proving how superior is.

By "!@#$ing Prussians" you mean the Freikorps, it's true that army was crated in the 18th Century. That reminds me of a post I read some time ago about the "generous" use a player did of the swastikas, which are symbols present in ancient cultures from Asia, and even used by the Roman Empire and other Italic peoples before them. I think you won't deny this symbol can't be any more taken out of its recent context, so maybe you are playing down too much about an army that supported the nazism in its more recent history.

This topic is kind of becoming the playground where non-Aurvandilian players seek for an explanation for how things turned out at some point. I've done it myself, and truth is Mendicant's player can use whatever IC argument likes to prove them they're "wrong", but Mendicant did what he liked as he liked (OOC they wanted to keep the regions). If every participant likes that kind of conversation, and likes Medicant to have OOC notoriety, keep on. If I say this is because sometimes it seems there's actually tension in this topic. I guess you knew that, but maybe somebody saves some time with this  ;)


Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 14, 2012, 01:12:08 PM
If you're interested:

Cour Impériale De La Noblesse De Chevalerie -> More or less grammatical, although it's a weird construction.
Assemblée de Royal Sovereign l'armée du Haut -> Assemblée Royale Souveraine de l'Armée du Haut
Royaliste Campagne de L'armée -> Armée de Campagne Royaliste
Rois Propriétaire Gardes Impériaux -> I assume you mean "King's household"? The it would be Gardes Impériaux de la Chancellerie
Orvandeaux Battaillon Etrangere -> Bataillon Etranger d'Orvandeaux
Caraque de la sang -> Caraque du Sang or Caraque de Sang

Litterally?

Cour Impériale De La Noblesse De Chevalerie -> Imperial court of the nobility of chivalry
Assemblée de Royal Sovereign l'armée du Haut -> Assembly of royal sovereign the army of the high (the highlands? the top?)
Royaliste Campagne de L'armée -> Countryside royalist of the army / Campaign royalist of the army
Rois Propriétaire Gardes Impériaux -> Owner kings imperial guards
Orvandeaux Battaillon Etrangere -> Foreign (lack of accents) bataillon (improper gender) Orvandeaux
Caraque de la sang -> Carrack of the (improper gender) blood.

I'm not even sure what any of these are meant to mean, as a native French speaker. It's not only the improper placement of words, it's also the choice of words.

For Rois Proprietaire, I got that of Wikipedia I think (Reputable as ever) and I think it's meant to be "King's Imperial Household Guard".

A google search for "Rois Proprietaire" in wikipedia yielded no results. If it's some expression, I'm not aware of it. It just sounds awful, either way. It litterally means "owner kings", with king plural and owner not. The sole mentions of "roi propriétaire" that I found are references to "owning" king, as opposed to a king consort, which would remain an ugly expression but make sense and be appropriate.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on December 14, 2012, 01:18:57 PM
Yep, that works too.

Then there's the problem of deciding if you're an emperor or a king. It sounds like imperial guards are guarding the king, which would mean the king is a prisoner.....

One can dream!  8)

I think the Aurvandilian don't use French, they murder it!!!  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on December 14, 2012, 01:22:41 PM
One can dream!  8)

I think the Aurvandilian don't use French, they murder it!!!  ;D

Or just call it Mendirench
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on December 14, 2012, 01:24:56 PM
I find it quite strange that you guys put forward the effort to draw up new maps and come up with weird philosophical ideas and all that and not check over your obviously butchered French when that's what your realm's culture is identified as, apart from having the worst diplomacy in BM. Was there seriously not a single person in Aurv who took it in high school? I think Google translate would've done an infinitely better job.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on December 14, 2012, 01:30:39 PM
I find it quite strange that you guys put forward the effort to draw up new maps and come up with weird philosophical ideas and all that and not check over your obviously butchered French when that's what your realm's culture is identified as, apart from having the worst diplomacy in BM. Was there seriously not a single person in Aurv who took it in high school? I think Google translate would've done an infinitely better job.

I'm sorry, but I think they WANT to butcher it. They don't want French, they want Mendifrench!!!  ::)

...Another reason for the total annihilation of the Aurvandil realm!  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 14, 2012, 02:14:02 PM
I find it quite strange that you guys put forward the effort to draw up new maps and come up with weird philosophical ideas and all that and not check over your obviously butchered French when that's what your realm's culture is identified as, apart from having the worst diplomacy in BM. Was there seriously not a single person in Aurv who took it in high school? I think Google translate would've done an infinitely better job.

Well, we enjoy debating philosophy and chivalry and promoting those ideas, it plays an important in character function that everyone can take part in. The same cannot be said for our French, we don't use French in any real amount and we just use it for army names,  government departments, ship names, councils etc to give a feel of things I'm quite sure to use it any more, or to put much more emphasis on knowing or using French would be close to excluding the rest in the realm who don't speak French. It's the same reason why we have our councils in French, but not our realm government titles.

And I took French in Secondary School (Not GCSE level, the non optional beginner French before that), it just so happens they don't teach you any real French, just phrases and words, the alphabet, numbers, pronounciation etc. So nothing with any real application in Battlemaster. French is on my "to learn" list of languages it is however, far down on that list. It was google translate that gave us such awful French.

I'm sorry, but I think they WANT to butcher it. They don't want French, they want Mendifrench!!!  ::)

...Another reason for the total annihilation of the Aurvandil realm!  ;D


Real French isn't good enough for Mendicant. Hail to the barely understandable Mendifrench.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 14, 2012, 02:23:21 PM
"Electoral tyranny"– which didn't exist and is a non sequitur to begin with

Not at all, it existed. The corruption of elections to enforce tyranny.

"Corrupt dukes"– wherein corruption consisted of, as I recall, not subsidizing the "Freikorps" army (oh and picking a nazi-associated army name in a game based in Germany was really unfortunate too)

The corrupt dukes were hoarding land, colluding together to control the power and wealth of Barca to distribute it as they pleased and were forcing lords to comply and break their oaths under threat of punishment if they don't whilst being overly taxed as an attempt to force them.

"Unjust banishments"– you mean like for expressing loyalty to a different realm and threatening to secede (eventually doing so)

I don't recall any expressions of loyalty to Aurvandil until after the threat to secede, and the threat to secede came when the threat of banishment was levied.

"Old guard hoarding power"– Welcome to Battlemaster

That may be the norm for most realms, but not Aurvandil, we aspire to more than letting an old guard  hoard the power. I purposefully replace my old guard with new nobles when presented with the opportunity, and when suitable on an in character level. As Aurvandil makes an effort to ensure our old guard doesn't simply hold all the power, we take exception to those who do, it's bad governance in our eyes.

"Offering [bounties]"– You have a point on this, if it's true– and I gather some Barcans did in fact confess to this. But if they didn't actually confess, then you can't prove it– bounties are anonymous

The Ambassador and the Suffete both admitted they came from Barca. And OOC it's impossible to prove, IC it isn't, IC things like that are never as simple as just pushing a button and that leaves room for their identity to be compromised or for their to be trail of evidence etc. It's easy to roleplay frame some one for placing a bounty, after all.

Giving a list of words does not mean you told someone what was wrong.

It does if those words are cunning arranged grammatically to form sentence structures which then purvey information to the recipient. You know, a letter where you tell them something.

And there's a fundamental contradiction in saying that you told them "what [you] wanted changing" and your earlier presumption of detached superiority and non-involvement. You can't have it both ways. Either you had an interventionist intent or you did not.

I'm not sure what you're on about there.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 14, 2012, 03:21:00 PM
Why do you guys argue about the inconsistancy of roleplayed characters? Its a game, if someone wants to make something up to develop their character why does it turn into a big deal? Dont change Mendicant , people here argue because they want to change IG character or actions. Who cares if someone said this and did that, we are corrupt power hungry nobles...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on December 14, 2012, 05:06:12 PM
Back on topic please. We're here to talk about the war, not murdered french.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 14, 2012, 05:42:47 PM
Not at all, it existed. The corruption of elections to enforce tyranny.

No, it did not. I saw nearly all the messages going around in Barca at this time (which really wasn't that many, relatively speaking; they aren't the chattiest realm). Tyranny was not on anybody's mind. What was on their mind was that they had a realm-within-a-realm that clearly had no interest in the realm's established goals and policies.

The corrupt dukes were hoarding land, colluding together to control the power and wealth of Barca to distribute it as they pleased and were forcing lords to comply and break their oaths under threat of punishment if they don't whilst being overly taxed as an attempt to force them.

Oh gracious. Dukes were hoarding land. You don't say? They were distributing land as they pleased? Dukes were? Really? How corrupt! Imagine that, dukes distributing land as they pleased, and punishing lords when they break their oaths! How ghastly! And imagine dukes using taxes as a way to punish unruly or disruptive lords– that's unthinkable!

Actually, this is exactly how it's supposed to be done. And lords getting angry about it is exactly the response you'd expect, I grant. It's a powerplay by both sides. Sure they will ICly couch it in terms of rights and honor and corruption– but OOCly it's obviously just a run-of-the-mill power play where the lords got bitter that the dukes were more powerful and so, to keep their power and influence, they joined the realm to which they already paid implicit fealty.

I don't recall any expressions of loyalty to Aurvandil until after the threat to secede, and the threat to secede came when the threat of banishment was levied.

No, the Orvandeaux loyalism long predates the ban. Those nobles also favored not enforcing the Treaty of Evanburg as I recall (or, rather, simply complained a lot when it was going to be enforced). Threat to secede also preceded the banishment– though obviously the actual secession came after the banishment. It wouldn't make sense to get banished then THREATEN to secede. The whole in your story here is you've failed to explain why Barca acted the way it did– other than a presumption that they're just terrible, terrible people who like banning good people. But that just doesn't make sense.

That may be the norm for most realms, but not Aurvandil, we aspire to more than letting an old guard  hoard the power. I purposefully replace my old guard with new nobles when presented with the opportunity, and when suitable on an in character level. As Aurvandil makes an effort to ensure our old guard doesn't simply hold all the power, we take exception to those who do, it's bad governance in our eyes.

Which is why your ruler and general are the same as when you were founded, and your main duke, city lord, and ruler are one person who never has to face elections.

Tell me again about your egalitarian society.

But in all seriousness– I agree that encouraging new players to get involved is important and good. Terran does lots of that as well (we routinely give brand new members lordships).

But to argue that a realm is corrupt and needs to be destroyed because its existing lords worked together to keep power (yet still gave multiple lordships to new players?) seems a bit silly. By that standard, every realm should be destroyed.

Then again, Aurvandil is at war with nearly every realm...

I'm not sure what you're on about there.

I was pointing out an inconsistency in the position you have articulated.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 14, 2012, 08:05:01 PM
Consistency is boring... More chaos.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 14, 2012, 09:31:16 PM
Oh gracious. Dukes were hoarding land. You don't say? They were distributing land as they pleased? Dukes were? Really? How corrupt! Imagine that, dukes distributing land as they pleased, and punishing lords when they break their oaths! How ghastly! And imagine dukes using taxes as a way to punish unruly or disruptive lords– that's unthinkable!

Punishing lords if they wouldn't break their oaths, and levying taxes to try and force them to. Don't misconstrue my words so deliberately.

No, the Orvandeaux loyalism long predates the ban. Those nobles also favored not enforcing the Treaty of Evanburg as I recall (or, rather, simply complained a lot when it was going to be enforced). Threat to secede also preceded the banishment– though obviously the actual secession came after the banishment. It wouldn't make sense to get banished then THREATEN to secede. The whole in your story here is you've failed to explain why Barca acted the way it did– other than a presumption that they're just terrible, terrible people who like banning good people. But that just doesn't make sense.

I'll take your word for it, though I have only your word to support the notion that they were loyal to Aurvandil. By all accounts, the Old Guard were more loyal to Aurvandil because they actually asked Mendicant if they could defect to Aurvandil when Flavia took power as Suffete and they lost the rulership (which shows you what sort of people the Old Guard were) but the three Margraves never spoke to Mendicant they just switched.

Which is why your ruler and general are the same as when you were founded, and your main duke, city lord, and ruler are one person who never has to face elections.

Tell me again about your egalitarian society.

Gladly.

Our Knight Hausos At Arms can only be a man who is firstly, a Cavalier, and secondly proven his prowess, Allomere is the Knight Hausos because he is first amongst knights, and has displayed himself as a exemplar of chivalry, honour and valour whilst also showing his ability to command the armies and bring victory. The Knight Hausos is more than just a General, it is a very ceremonial position in Aurvandil, second to none in rank and honour and it has very, very select criteria on who can become the Knight Hauso. But at the same time, we hold elections for the Knight Hausos and we hold Allomere to account every month and our nobles grant their consent to his command each month in the elections. It is because we are egalitarian that not just any old person can take the position, they have to be the best.

As for the position of High Sovereign. It is run by rule by consent, whereby the High Sovereign is both answerable to the people, and accountable to their will, and the High Sovereign rules only so long as his people consents to his reign. Thus, ensuring that our ruler is not the most "popular" as you would get with elections, but he is the best and has the loyalty and consent of his people, nothing so trivial as temporary popularity in elections like you see in Republics.

Our main Duke, is Sarit, not Mendicant just so you know. Our Dukes are again, the best nobles in the realm, the most deserving, and it is by that logic that we don't play musical chairs with who gets the position, but at the same time we make it open for other nobles to ascend to ducal positions, as ever the best get titles such as Dukedoms, which are at their core, again very ceremonial positions more than embodiments of land based power. Our lordships are frequently given to the newest nobles who contribute the most, the same with our marshal positions and our vice marshal positions (These are the positions that most involve the player and are thus the ones we should keep fluid to the new characters) and our government positions have been known to frequently alter. Another thing you have to consider is the roleplayed titles and positions of power in Aurvandil, there are more of those than there are real titles, and these are ones we frequently hand out to knew players, for example the next highest position of honour in Aurvandil to Knight Hausos At Arms is the Porte-Auriflamme of the Rois, who bears Mendicant's personal standard the Auriflamme (Derivative obviously of the Oriflamme, but changed to Auri as in Aurv) whereby the Porte-Auriflamme is sworn to die rather than yield the ground the banner rests upon. It is an immensely important position in Aurvandil. Another position, for example, is the High Sovereign's Champion, another supremely important ceremonial position that automatically places the Chevalier in the Rois and high on the Aurvandilan hierarchy, higher than any lord or duke. Yet another position to consider, is the keeper of the Eternal Treasury, not to be confused with the Royal Purser who basically just fiddles with the granaries and does tax reports.

There are only so many titles in the game, so we make a point of making more titles and positions to then distribute to our nobles as a ways of distributing power and "involvement" to players who otherwise wouldn't be involved.

But in all seriousness– I agree that encouraging new players to get involved is important and good. Terran does lots of that as well (we routinely give brand new members lordships).

But to argue that a realm is corrupt and needs to be destroyed because its existing lords worked together to keep power (yet still gave multiple lordships to new players?) seems a bit silly. By that standard, every realm should be destroyed.

Then again, Aurvandil is at war with nearly every realm...

I was pointing out an inconsistency in the position you have articulated.

I never said that Barca needs to be destroyed because they are corrupt, I believe many of these inconsistencies in my position are simply things that you mistakenly believe to have been said.

I did however say that Barca needed to be destroyed when they sold their statehood to the Zuma and pursued a war on Aurvandil.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on December 14, 2012, 11:16:04 PM
not to be confused with the Royal Purser who basically just fiddles with the granaries and does tax reports.




Oh that's me! I'd just like to point out that in about 3 weeks time I went from a knight to a vice marshal and banker. Advancement is easy if you're active
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on December 14, 2012, 11:16:13 PM
If you were truly accountable and responsible to the will of the people, then you'd have your ruler election monthly as well. Otherwise all this talk of egalitarian and "accountable to the people" is window dresing for your standard, run-of-the-mill monarchy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 14, 2012, 11:52:14 PM

Oh that's me! I'd just like to point out that in about 3 weeks time I went from a knight to a vice marshal and banker. Advancement is easy if you're active

Active players should be rewarded for their efforts.

If you were truly accountable and responsible to the will of the people, then you'd have your ruler election monthly as well. Otherwise all this talk of egalitarian and "accountable to the people" is window dresing for your standard, run-of-the-mill monarchy.

If Mendicant were elected, then he'd derive his power from populism and reduce the crown of the High Sovereign to a mere office filled by interchangeable  self serving politicians looking to advance their careers, serving not out of duty, honour and for the betterment of the realm but because they see it as a career, a way to advance themselves. The Monarchy is never to be debased into a political office filled by divisive politicians following their own agendas and their own policies. The office of the High Sovereign is far greater than that, it serves a higher purpose. Mendicant is the arbiter of the Commonwealth, the safeguard of freedom and the protector of the rights of the gentry and Commons, the ultimate power in deciding policies and diplomacy, curbing the interests and agendas of any single noble or lobby group and ensuring a healthy political process whereby all are represented and honour, provided with the chance to contribute; Mendicant embodies his realm, he is their national symbol, the source of their unity, the keeper of all oaths sworn and the final judiciary power to uphold oaths, the very fabric of the realm, he is also the example of his people, generous, magnanimous, devoted, honourable, chivalric and just, he exists to lead the Orvandeaux, and to present to them the ideal form of a noble. And you would suggest we reduce such an incredibly important position to elections? To allow the possibility that some one with no greater intention than to advance their own career and agenda would be able to hold such a position? Madness. The Monarch is more than a simple ruler, he is the essence of everything that is his realm and people. A Monarch is therefore far more important than any elected official, than any politician and any ruler such as a Prime Minister.

And that is why he is not elected, but consented to. The people do not choose their Monarch through elections, but they consent to whether or not that Monarch indeed exemplifies all of the above and more. Consent is far more powerful than any vote, it is far more important than popularity and it is far more representative than any electoral process. The people consent to their Monarch, or they do not, and that ultimately decides on whether or not a Monarch is worthy of ruling them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 15, 2012, 12:15:01 AM
Monarchy is the only true way to govern a kingdom! 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 15, 2012, 12:16:13 AM
Monarchy is the only true way to govern a kingdom! 8)

Monarchs are overrated. House of Lords ftw.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on December 15, 2012, 12:46:04 AM
Monarchs are overrated. House of Lords ftw.

They just aren't good..
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 15, 2012, 02:01:15 AM
Monarchy is the only true way to govern a kingdom! 8)

Indeed, but... Fellow nobles, abandon those decadent chains of the Old Regime, your blood is worthy of each privilege you can earn with courage and tenacity!  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 15, 2012, 02:37:29 AM
Indeed, but... Fellow nobles, abandon those decadent chains of the Old Regime, your blood is worthy of each privilege you can earn with courage and tenacity!  ;D

Power to the lords! Free yourselves from the tyranny of the sovereign!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 15, 2012, 03:54:03 AM
I'm not going to make a detailed reply to Mendicant's points.

Not I say Mendicant, not noblessechevalier. I have a hard time believing that a modern human being actually believes that the argument he is made is logically consistent.

You don't actually think what you're saying makes sense and is true, do you? Like, it makes sense maybe from a late-Medieval perspective that basically ignored most of what we today recognize as fundamental human freedoms, and basic problems of political economy... but I get the impression you think what your saying is true on an OOC level. And that... really shocks me.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on December 15, 2012, 04:15:50 AM
If Mendicant were elected, then he'd derive his power from populism and reduce the crown of the High Sovereign to a mere office filled by interchangeable  self serving politicians looking to advance their careers, serving not out of duty, honour and for the betterment of the realm but because they see it as a career, a way to advance themselves.
So, if the High Sovereign were elected monthly, then he would be a mere interchangeable, self-serving politician like your Knight Hausos, Lord Purser, and Arbiter of Justice. Those filthy career politicians.

You can't have it both ways. You've gone to great lengths to explain to us how your unique Aurvandilian system of elections is free of all that political baggage, and is a monthly accountability and consent process.

The Knight Hausos is more than just a General, it is a very ceremonial position in Aurvandil, second to none in rank and honour and it has very, very select criteria on who can become the Knight Hauso. But at the same time, we hold elections for the Knight Hausos and we hold Allomere to account every month and our nobles grant their consent to his command each month in the elections.

He's elected every month so that you can hold him to account every month, and that you demonstrate your consent to his command. Yet somehow this monthly process does not devalue him into nothing more than a filthy career politician seeking only to advance his career. (I will assume that you will claim the same rigmarole for the other two monthly-elected offices, so no need to argue them separately.)

Now, as far as the High Sovereign goes...

Quote
As for the position of High Sovereign. It is run by rule by consent, whereby the High Sovereign is both answerable to the people, and accountable to their will, and the High Sovereign rules only so long as his people consents to his reign. Thus, ensuring that our ruler is not the most "popular" as you would get with elections, but he is the best and has the loyalty and consent of his people, nothing so trivial as temporary popularity in elections like you see in Republics.

Oh look... the High Sovereign is accountable to the people, has to answer to the people, and rules by consent of the people. Kind of like the general, banker, and judge. Except that with no monthly/quarterly elections, there is no accountability/consent process. Mendicant has never been through the consent and accountability process that the rest of his government is subjected to on a regular basis.

So how do you explain that the monthly consent process does not turn your banker/judge/general into filthy career politicians, but it would with your ruler?

Hence my assertion that your consent and accountability are window dressing and/or double talk. If Mendicant really ruled by an accountability and consent process, he would be held accountable and receiving the consent on a regular basis, just like the rest of his government. But he isn't. He's the standard, garden-variety absolute ruler, just like pretty much every other monarch in the game.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 15, 2012, 04:59:34 AM
I'm not going to make a detailed reply to Mendicant's points.

Not I say Mendicant, not noblessechevalier. I have a hard time believing that a modern human being actually believes that the argument he is made is logically consistent.

You don't actually think what you're saying makes sense and is true, do you? Like, it makes sense maybe from a late-Medieval perspective that basically ignored most of what we today recognize as fundamental human freedoms, and basic problems of political economy... but I get the impression you think what your saying is true on an OOC level. And that... really shocks me.

Yes, well you give the impression you believe things such as elections truly safeguard the freedoms and civil liberties of the people, and in turn represents the people, which in this day and age for anyone to still believe such nonsense is shocking, as you would put it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 15, 2012, 05:19:23 AM
So, if the High Sovereign were elected monthly, then he would be a mere interchangeable, self-serving politician like your Knight Hausos, Lord Purser, and Arbiter of Justice. Those filthy career politicians.

They are no self serving, nor politicians during these elections exactly because they are not allowed to politically campaign, nor are they allowed to announce their candidacy, therefore they cannot serve themselves in doing so, in essence they step forward in an effort to be afforded an opportunity only to serve. The government positions of Royal Purser and Arbiter of Justice, are just civil servants, they exist to do as they're told and to run the government, they don't exist to run the government in a style of their choosing, or to enact an agenda. Those who are elected to the position, are elected only to serve, and thus by putting yourself forward, you put yourself forward to be little more than a labourer.

The Eternal Treasury is kept and maintained by Sarit after all, the Royal Purser simply fills out the forms. The courts and the Noblesse decide verdicts and the High Sovereign passes judgement, the Arbiter of Justice merely enforces the punishment and ruling he is told to enforce. They cannot be politicians in this system, nor can they serve themselves by being placed in these positions, they can only serve the High Sovereign and the Commonwealth.

This, however would change were it the High Sovereign, this is a position exactly where people can run to advance themselves, to make a career, to self serve and to push agendas.

Now, as far as the High Sovereign goes...

Oh look... the High Sovereign is accountable to the people, has to answer to the people, and rules by consent of the people. Kind of like the general, banker, and judge. Except that with no monthly/quarterly elections, there is no accountability/consent process. Mendicant has never been through the consent and accountability process that the rest of his government is subjected to on a regular basis.

So how do you explain that the monthly consent process does not turn your banker/judge/general into filthy career politicians, but it would with your ruler?

Mendicant is subject to the consent of his gentry each and every day, with every decision, and the people hold the power to at any time oust him from power by removing their consent. The peoples power over the Monarchy is thus, unlimited, whereas it is limited in the other positions.

Hence my assertion that your consent and accountability are window dressing and/or double talk. If Mendicant really ruled by an accountability and consent process, he would be held accountable and receiving the consent on a regular basis, just like the rest of his government. But he isn't. He's the standard, garden-variety absolute ruler, just like pretty much every other monarch in the game.

He is always under scrutiny of consent, at any given time the nobles can cease to grant their consent, the Monarch is held under a different standard exactly because the Monarch is the most powerful position, the one position in which those who want to could pursue a path of self serving careerism, to push agendas, to lobby, to be politicians and take power for powers sake. We do not confine the power of the gentry to remove the High Sovereign to elections after a set period of time, nor can trust elections to be the best means by which we grant consent to the Monarch.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 15, 2012, 05:29:19 AM
True nobles live under monarchy. The rest are just Republican politicians, or sheep of the Gods under theocracy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 15, 2012, 05:34:46 AM
Well when you say it like that Mendicant it makes perfect sense. Noblesse that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. My IC noble might not find that completely idiotic, though somewhat, while I believe that to be incredibly terrible logic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 15, 2012, 05:39:29 AM
True nobles live under monarchy. The rest are just Republican politicians, or sheep of the Gods under theocracy.
Bull crap, every noble is a politician except in Aurvandil as claimed by Mendicant, which I wish I could participate in for a month, or a week, but my character at the moment would not join. I nearly said never but because of the way I role play my character in a long term, seen by few, manner it could perhaps happen eventually, but no time soon. OOC, not even talking about your military or gold maneuvering, Aurvandil is amazing due to its political system, which is that it does not exist.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 15, 2012, 07:27:16 AM
Yes, well you give the impression you believe things such as elections truly safeguard the freedoms and civil liberties of the people, and in turn represents the people, which in this day and age for anyone to still believe such nonsense is shocking, as you would put it.

 :o

erm...

Okay, yeah, I'm just gonna' drop the mic now and claim victory. You actually just claimed that dictatorship is a better safeguard of liberty than democracy, on an OOC level, not ICly at all. Methinks you need a history lesson– especially French history. You could learn the language and some historical truth all at once.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on December 15, 2012, 10:14:39 AM
:o

erm...

Okay, yeah, I'm just gonna' drop the mic now and claim victory. You actually just claimed that dictatorship is a better safeguard of liberty than democracy, on an OOC level, not ICly at all. Methinks you need a history lesson– especially French history. You could learn the language and some historical truth all at once.

:o....

Dictatorship grants more freedom? :o...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Draco Tanos on December 15, 2012, 10:17:13 AM
In theory I guess it could...  If say the preceding Republic curtailed many freedoms.  There is such a think as a benevolent dictator. 

Those are far less common in the modern era.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 15, 2012, 11:53:05 AM
Bull crap, every noble is a politician except in Aurvandil as claimed by Mendicant, which I wish I could participate in for a month, or a week, but my character at the moment would not join. I nearly said never but because of the way I role play my character in a long term, seen by few, manner it could perhaps happen eventually, but no time soon. OOC, not even talking about your military or gold maneuvering, Aurvandil is amazing due to its political system, which is that it does not exist.

Everyone's got a price, eh?  :P

When I first met BattleMaster I was tempted to enter Aurvandil, I guess like many other people that don't integrate the main player-core, because of the number of people (which almost ensures a realm is in the top of the relevance in the continent), and because their Wiki background was quite elaborated comparing other realms. As I said some time ago, for many players it seems the main thing here is knowing from the beginning they're going to join a powerful realm, rather than the idea of helping on the construction of a small realm that is in its growing-surviving phase. Once they taste that notoriety, I guess for them the possibility to access the highest positions goes in a second place, if the ruler gets to keep the illusion of a promotional system.

I'm glad to haven't chosen Aurvandil, and mostly after visiting this forum regularly. But I can understand new players find it a very tempting place to start.

:o

erm...

Okay, yeah, I'm just gonna' drop the mic now and claim victory. You actually just claimed that dictatorship is a better safeguard of liberty than democracy, on an OOC level, not ICly at all. Methinks you need a history lesson– especially French history. You could learn the language and some historical truth all at once.

I think he wasn't saying that exactly. I agree that many times our idea of Democracy has little to do with our true capacity to practice our right to chose our representatives. Unfortunately, politic parties have uncountable ways to protect themselves against "disturbing ideas". So finally, we the citizens, only can choose what we think is the "less bad" option among the very limited options we have.

Democracy as we know it today isn't a good politic system, but indeed is the best way a modern society can chose to rule itself.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on December 15, 2012, 12:16:14 PM
Depends also what kind of democracy.
Yet still the peoples majority rules, not the absolute perfect solution or that which is best for everyone(or most people).
No it's simple the outcome of a choice from the majority of the population.
And there opinions are again formed by there environment threw the years and how they process that.
If that society is also a free market society and allows campaigning and commercially selling out ideals or political parties, it is thus those who have the most influence on the environment of the people who have the influence on the election and thus rule.
The politicians who derive from this endlessly compete with each other for a chance to rule.
This will eventually aslo effect what will happen and how the outcome will serve the voter.
There is no clear leadership because the politician is there because of the popele who again voted for them because of there opinions formed by all the aspects in there life that made them/society.
Society is again influenced by culture religion, and now a days mostly all forms of media and the culture of individualism which is dominate in the western world(and more and more in the rest of it).Good and bad is not as clear as it used to be as now it changes constantly and while mc donalds tells me there right while the go green mega store tells me there right.
Its snake that bites his own tail (ouroboros) where no one is 'really' in charge, but more what ever is the leading trend at that time.

The point with a monarchy is that every choice made is the absolute perfect solution or decision.
There blood line is destined 'n blessed by god him self to rule and thus the ultimate form of justice as it is gods will.
Yet the problem with this is that obviously people just claim to be that and we never really know if there really gods favourite pick.
But still if that King was dedicated to create a stable and peaceful society and always did whats close to a common good, he could.
Where in a democracy that is shrouded in the shadow of competition with no consistent leadership.

But offcourse theres also the effect of becoming ' the man' of the nation and losing your sanity to replace it with extreme narcisism or megalomania.
Which happens all to often.

The point with a king is that he can really amke things done, good or bad.
An insane king can do ALOT of damage.
And that gives the people a feeling of helplessness and opression.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on December 15, 2012, 03:08:33 PM
:o

erm...

Okay, yeah, I'm just gonna' drop the mic now and claim victory. You actually just claimed that dictatorship is a better safeguard of liberty than democracy, on an OOC level, not ICly at all. Methinks you need a history lesson– especially French history. You could learn the language and some historical truth all at once.

The problem is that most historical dictators have gone mad. Finding a consistantly sane one beats the problem
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 15, 2012, 03:10:04 PM
The problem is that most historical dictators have gone mad. Finding a consistantly sane one beats the problem

The problem is finding a successor that's just as good, should you truly have found the perfectly benevolent dictator.

I, for one, would love to see something happen to Mendicant, such as capture in battle, to see what happens with the rulership elections.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on December 15, 2012, 03:16:22 PM
The problem is finding a successor that's just as good, should you truly have found the perfectly benevolent dictator.

I, for one, would love to see something happen to Mendicant, such as capture in battle, to see what happens with the rulership elections.

You'll be disapointed I assure you...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on December 15, 2012, 04:13:13 PM
All that nonsense about elections is the double speak and propaganda I'm talking about. Not being allowed to announce or discuss your candidacy only serves to enshrine the old guard and existing power structure in place. You've guaranteed that the only people that will hold power are those who already have it. Which is perfect if the only thing you're interested in is ensuring that nothing changes. It's very convenient if one of your old guard happens to get kicked out via capture or wounds, and some outsider happens to get himself elected on a fluke. Just wait a couple weeks and elect him back into office. Gets rid of all that inconvenient placeholder/benchwarmer controversy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 15, 2012, 04:42:12 PM
All that nonsense about elections is the double speak and propaganda I'm talking about. Not being allowed to announce or discuss your candidacy only serves to enshrine the old guard and existing power structure in place. You've guaranteed that the only people that will hold power are those who already have it. Which is perfect if the only thing you're interested in is ensuring that nothing changes. It's very convenient if one of your old guard happens to get kicked out via capture or wounds, and some outsider happens to get himself elected on a fluke. Just wait a couple weeks and elect him back into office. Gets rid of all that inconvenient placeholder/benchwarmer controversy.

Not so lucky with the unelected ruler, though. :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on December 15, 2012, 07:40:38 PM
Here's a fun exersize -read through what Mendicant/NoblesseChevaleresque has to say, but replace "Aurvandil" with "North Korea" and "Mendicant" with "Kim Jong Un", and "Nobles" with "Communist Party".

Quote
The Eternal Treasury is kept and maintained by Sarit after all, the Royal Purser simply fills out the forms. The courts and the Communist Party decide verdicts and Kim Jong Un passes judgement, the Arbiter of Justice merely enforces the punishment and ruling he is told to enforce. They cannot be politicians in this system, nor can they serve themselves by being placed in these positions, they can only serve Kim Jong Un and the People's Republic of North Korea.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 15, 2012, 08:34:11 PM
Here's a fun exersize -read through what Mendicant/NoblesseChevaleresque has to say, but replace "Aurvandil" with "North Korea" and "Mendicant" with "Kim Jong Un", and "Nobles" with "Communist Party".

Rather my point.

Except he's advocating his position OOCly. Which has me simultaneously very amused and a wee bit concerned.

The problem is finding a successor that's just as good, should you truly have found the perfectly benevolent dictator.

The problem is that most historical dictators have gone mad. Finding a consistantly sane one beats the problem

No, the problem is they fail. And they're morally wrong to begin with. It's fun in a game, just like playing god-mode is fun in a game. But leaving the game and talking like in-game systems make sense out-of-game is like turning off god-mode, walking outside, and trying to alter the weather. You've made two major errors: external validity bias and self-delusion.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Uzamaki on December 15, 2012, 11:18:49 PM
Here's a fun exersize -read through what Mendicant/NoblesseChevaleresque has to say, but replace "Aurvandil" with "North Korea" and "Mendicant" with "Kim Jong Un", and "Nobles" with "Communist Party".

So much win.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on December 16, 2012, 01:08:34 AM
:o

erm...

Okay, yeah, I'm just gonna' drop the mic now and claim victory. You actually just claimed that dictatorship is a better safeguard of liberty than democracy, on an OOC level, not ICly at all. Methinks you need a history lesson– especially French history. You could learn the language and some historical truth all at once.

did he mention dictatorship in that quote? I don't think so. I think what he meant to say is that constituents can almost never be truely and fairly represented in a democracy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on December 16, 2012, 01:45:06 AM
did he mention dictatorship in that quote? I don't think so. I think what he meant to say is that constituents can almost never be truely and fairly represented in a democracy.

As I understand it, he was literally saying that a monarchy better represents the people than a representative democracy.

I thought Aurvandil was interesting prior to this. Now knowing that their beliefs aren't just roleplayed, but like, are acted out in a delusional gratification of their perverse ideal real world... yeah not just a wee bit scary, closer to psychotic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: BarticaBoat on December 16, 2012, 01:49:16 AM
As I understand it, he was literally saying that a monarchy better represents the people than a representative democracy.

I thought Aurvandil was interesting prior to this. Now knowing that their beliefs aren't just roleplayed, but like, are acted out in a delusional gratification of their perverse ideal real world... yeah not just a wee bit scary, closer to psychotic.
more like noblesse chevalresque confirmed for 2edgy4u 20-something year old
stopped responding to my letters so karibash has to come stab him personally. damn shame!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 16, 2012, 02:22:36 AM
Rather my point.

Except he's advocating his position OOCly. Which has me simultaneously very amused and a wee bit concerned.

No, the problem is they fail. And they're morally wrong to begin with. It's fun in a game, just like playing god-mode is fun in a game. But leaving the game and talking like in-game systems make sense out-of-game is like turning off god-mode, walking outside, and trying to alter the weather. You've made two major errors: external validity bias and self-delusion.

Individuals are not by definition unable to be more just and moral than a group. The dictatorship of the majority isn't the most just way to go about, either.

I just think it tends to be easier to question the government when there are open elections. But then again, justice is not determined by the form by which a leader is chosen, but rather by the mechanics that protect justice and freedom in all levels of government, at all times.

I may favor democracy, but I also don't let myself be fooled that simply having a guy be elected makes him necessarily legitimate and just.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on December 16, 2012, 06:23:31 PM
Individuals are not by definition unable to be more just and moral than a group. The dictatorship of the majority isn't the most just way to go about, either.

I just think it tends to be easier to question the government when there are open elections. But then again, justice is not determined by the form by which a leader is chosen, but rather by the mechanics that protect justice and freedom in all levels of government, at all times.

I may favor democracy, but I also don't let myself be fooled that simply having a guy be elected makes him necessarily legitimate and just.

mmm... I think when you said just, you mean good? It's true Individuals are not by definition unable to be more just and moral than a group... but if you are trying to 'organize' the living of a group, it's only just they decide their own destiny... maybe not every time the better choice, but THEIR choice.

All democracies have problems, (as everything made by humans) but they can be solved by pacific ways. A dictator only can be 'solved' by his death... the fast way usually cost too much blood and the slow way too much sufferings and years.

In a democracy, people can be fooled to elect the 'wrong' guy? Give them education! The more educated the people are, the less able to be fooled, they will.
Someone can abuse of his position? Make efficient 'control' procedures. A good democratic government system is the one who every power is controlled by another.

In the democracies, the government election is not only the 'just way', It's the 'main' system of control. The people have the right and the duty to try to chose the better government possible for their country. If the people don't want (or can't) to do this, the democracy will crumble and an eager 'patriot/saviour' will take control.

But all of this is OOT... or we are discussing Aurvandill government?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 16, 2012, 06:47:06 PM
mmm... I think when you said just, you mean good? It's true Individuals are not by definition unable to be more just and moral than a group... but if you are trying to 'organize' the living of a group, it's only just they decide their own destiny... maybe not every time the better choice, but THEIR choice.

All democracies have problems, (as everything made by humans) but they can be solved by pacific ways. A dictator only can be 'solved' by his death... the fast way usually cost too much blood and the slow way too much sufferings and years.

In a democracy, people can be fooled to elect the 'wrong' guy? Give them education! The more educated the people are, the less able to be fooled, they will.
Someone can abuse of his position? Make efficient 'control' procedures. A good democratic government system is the one who every power is controlled by another.

In the democracies, the government election is not only the 'just way', It's the 'main' system of control. The people have the right and the duty to try to chose the better government possible for their country. If the people don't want (or can't) to do this, the democracy will crumble and an eager 'patriot/saviour' will take control.

But all of this is OOT... or we are discussing Aurvandill government?

OOT.

But still. Give them education? Who chooses to? And when the trend is to make higher education more and more expensive and inaccessible to the lower and middle classes? When the people who decide what is taught are the ones with the most interests in lowering standards? To claim that problems in democracies can always be solved by pacific means and that problems in dictatorships can only be solved in a leader's death is a false dichotomy. Disregarding the fact that what sets one aside from the other is usually pretty arbitrary, dictators have passed down power without dying and democratically-elected leaders have used their armies against their own citizen.

I do wish for a society where everyone is better educated and officials fully accountable. Sadly, all you need to do is follow the opinion polls, the political news, and follow election campaigns and it's pretty clear that marketing has long replaced political science and philosophy and that most peoples votes will remain the same no matter what.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on December 16, 2012, 09:34:54 PM
The only inherent advantage democracy has over monarchy is that it's less susceptible to political agitation. In this day and age political agitation has become a science, hence why democracies are so abundant while monarchies are few and relegated to retrograde areas or special cases. Monarchies in progressive countries were torn to bits for the fact that they were unable to contend with their up-in-coming political opponents.

One inherent disadvantage democracy comes with, however, is that it lacks long-term planning. The people who run democratic governments are only held responsible for things that happen during their terms, thus they tend to plan only for the short term often neglecting the long term.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 16, 2012, 09:53:41 PM
This is empirically nonsense.

Democratic states are MORE likely to engage in long-term projects than less democratic states. Please do not extrapolate to all non-democratic states based on media presentations of China, or extrapolate to all democratic states based on media presentations of the US congress. Empirically speaking, infrastructural and long-term investments, controlling for geographical and economic factors and opportunity costs, are more frequent in democracies than more authoritarian states. So that argument is bunk.

Collective rule IS more just: always and everywhere. Because any rule which is not collective is of its very nature unjust. We can pretend otherwise for a video game– but in the real world, this is obvious. Rule by a king, or a general, or a politburo, is unjust.

Now, a dictator may carry out more just actions than some democracy might– that may be true. Empirically, it is unlikely: authoritarian states tend to offer fewer freedoms and liberties and be more prone to use violence against their people. The possibility of benevolent dictators is defeated by the fact of their non-existence.

Democracies are flawed, yes. Duh. But seriously people, this is showing a shocking amount of historical blindness: do I really hear educated people questioning whether democracy is good for us, whether we might not be better off not as democracies? Please tell me this is some kind of strange devil's advocate situation. Because that's just gross ignorance. Democracy is not promoted abroad by nearly every democratic state because it is so strategically advantageous or something. It's promoted abroad because even the most realpolitiking democratic states have realized that this system is so obviously better than to not promote it would be such an obvious travesty and crime against humanity as to constitute a national embarrassment before all of history. It's like walking into Botswana and going, "Nah man, AIDS ain't a problem."
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 16, 2012, 10:17:01 PM
This is empirically nonsense.

Democratic states are MORE likely to engage in long-term projects than less democratic states. Please do not extrapolate to all non-democratic states based on media presentations of China, or extrapolate to all democratic states based on media presentations of the US congress. Empirically speaking, infrastructural and long-term investments, controlling for geographical and economic factors and opportunity costs, are more frequent in democracies than more authoritarian states. So that argument is bunk.

Collective rule IS more just: always and everywhere. Because any rule which is not collective is of its very nature unjust. We can pretend otherwise for a video game– but in the real world, this is obvious. Rule by a king, or a general, or a politburo, is unjust.

Now, a dictator may carry out more just actions than some democracy might– that may be true. Empirically, it is unlikely: authoritarian states tend to offer fewer freedoms and liberties and be more prone to use violence against their people. The possibility of benevolent dictators is defeated by the fact of their non-existence.

Democracies are flawed, yes. Duh. But seriously people, this is showing a shocking amount of historical blindness: do I really hear educated people questioning whether democracy is good for us, whether we might not be better off not as democracies? Please tell me this is some kind of strange devil's advocate situation. Because that's just gross ignorance. Democracy is not promoted abroad by nearly every democratic state because it is so strategically advantageous or something. It's promoted abroad because even the most realpolitiking democratic states have realized that this system is so obviously better than to not promote it would be such an obvious travesty and crime against humanity as to constitute a national embarrassment before all of history. It's like walking into Botswana and going, "Nah man, AIDS ain't a problem."

I can't speak for others, but I do firmly believe that democracies are better, and that we should strive to make them as perfect as possible.

I'm just stating that I also don't buy the praises about how simply having elected officials is a safeguard for freedom or justice. Nor that imposing elections upon other states guarantees them greater freedom and justice.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on December 16, 2012, 10:46:29 PM
Democratic states are MORE likely to engage in long-term projects than less democratic states. Please do not extrapolate to all non-democratic states based on media presentations of China, or extrapolate to all democratic states based on media presentations of the US congress. Empirically speaking, infrastructural and long-term investments, controlling for geographical and economic factors and opportunity costs, are more frequent in democracies than more authoritarian states. So that argument is bunk.

I don't see how that's empirically true. Democracies do not consist entirely of Western democracies, they consist of the likes of Liberia and Sierra Leone as well. As far as Western democracies go, their relative inclination towards long term planning could be owed to cultural reasons rather than government.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 16, 2012, 10:49:08 PM
Bull crap, every noble is a politician except in Aurvandil as claimed by Mendicant, which I wish I could participate in for a month, or a week, but my character at the moment would not join. I nearly said never but because of the way I role play my character in a long term, seen by few, manner it could perhaps happen eventually, but no time soon. OOC, not even talking about your military or gold maneuvering, Aurvandil is amazing due to its political system, which is that it does not exist.

The political system is rightfully outlawed, Mendicant is teh politics.. It's interesting that Aurvandil functions without it, whilst ensuring the nobles are heard and represented without need of one.

:o

erm...

Okay, yeah, I'm just gonna' drop the mic now and claim victory. You actually just claimed that dictatorship is a better safeguard of liberty than democracy, on an OOC level, not ICly at all. Methinks you need a history lesson– especially French history. You could learn the language and some historical truth all at once.

No I didn't

And since when was the world split between only two government systems, democracy and dictatorships? It's not as black and white as that, and yet you would go so far as to say I am the one who needs educating, despite the gross ignorance you've just displayed.

And indeed I do need to learn French, but learn French history? I know it well enough and am still learning it, and I'm not exactly sure why a greater knowledge of French history is relevant, Aurvandil takes elements from it and are mostly influenced by it, but pursue a unique culture from it. Unless of course you were just making a needless, derisive comment.

The problem is finding a successor that's just as good, should you truly have found the perfectly benevolent dictator.

I, for one, would love to see something happen to Mendicant, such as capture in battle, to see what happens with the rulership elections.

Mendicant has already been captured in battle, Madina tried to execute him and luckily they failed. When Mendicant is captured, the throne remains vacant. Though, even if an election would be called, that'd be declared high treason and any who ran would be banished, I imagine. Mendicant can only be deposed through rebellion, protests, or the public removing their consent.

did he mention dictatorship in that quote? I don't think so. I think what he meant to say is that constituents can almost never be truely and fairly represented in a democracy.

What I said, were that elections are not the best means by which a people are represented (short of perhaps, direct democracy). Of course some people immediately associate anything like that with tyranny and dictatorship, 'cause obviously the only form of freedom in this world comes at the end of a vote.

As I understand it, he was literally saying that a monarchy better represents the people than a representative democracy.

I thought Aurvandil was interesting prior to this. Now knowing that their beliefs aren't just roleplayed, but like, are acted out in a delusional gratification of their perverse ideal real world... yeah not just a wee bit scary, closer to psychotic.

Well, it does.

And spare me the drama as everyone seems to be putting words in my mouth and freaking the !@#$ out that I doubted the efficacity of elections, it has nothing to do with my personal views, of which Aurvandil is greatly juxtaposed to. My ideal real world is nothing like Aurvandil, nor my ideal political system. Aurvandil of course, is some of those views taken to a deliberate roleplayed extreme. But psychotic? Oh come on get a grip man.

more like noblesse chevalresque confirmed for 2edgy4u 20-something year old
stopped responding to my letters so karibash has to come stab him personally. damn shame!

As Mendicant told Karibash, send him something worthy of reading or don't reply at all. All Karibash did in that last letter was wank over himself.



Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 16, 2012, 10:50:25 PM
Also, I think this is the first thread I've posted on where I've managed to change the topic not to Aurvandil but something else entirely, the purpose built Aurvandil thread now talking about something entirely different whilst every other thread talks in regards to Aurvandil (Or did, anyway).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on December 17, 2012, 12:40:20 AM
OOT.

But still. Give them education? Who chooses to? And when the trend is to make higher education more and more expensive and inaccessible to the lower and middle classes? When the people who decide what is taught are the ones with the most interests in lowering standards? To claim that problems in democracies can always be solved by pacific means and that problems in dictatorships can only be solved in a leader's death is a false dichotomy. Disregarding the fact that what sets one aside from the other is usually pretty arbitrary, dictators have passed down power without dying and democratically-elected leaders have used their armies against their own citizen.

I do wish for a society where everyone is better educated and officials fully accountable. Sadly, all you need to do is follow the opinion polls, the political news, and follow election campaigns and it's pretty clear that marketing has long replaced political science and philosophy and that most peoples votes will remain the same no matter what.

Who chooses to? Nobody. Education is free and mandatory to all people. (at least until... 16 y.o.?) and then, it's only free (or almost free) to all people who wants get higher education. Of course you can try to destroy the people education... if you do it, the democracy will be destroyed in a few years.

 :o??? How many democracies you know that solve government problems by violent means? (Hey! I don't like this law!... who did it?... not matter, kill him!) and dictators... well, they don't accept the criticism very well, usually they solve the criticism killing the critic.

And yes, dictators have passed down power without dying... and nothing has been solved. Still a dictatorship.
"democratically-elected leaders have used their armies against their own citizen"... A democratically-elected leader don't make a democracy. As I said, in a democracy ALL powers are controlled by others powers. If a leader can control the army, and can order it to attack his own people... then this is not a democracy. Of course, they can call themselves as they want. Many dictatorships call themselves democracies.

The last part... Yes, sadly, in this you are right. We must know no democracy is perfect, and no democracy is invulnerable. We must see the imperfections and must try to make it right... because, not matter the country, there will be some 'powers' who will want to use this imperfections to control the democracy, to destroy it, and only leave a controlled, void pantomime... or a dictatorship. And usually the first step to destroy a democracy is to put the people against it.

Honestly, I'm not very optimistic about the occidental democracies. Maybe we are living the begin of the end. If some things don't change (and fast), in 25-50 years probably they will be all void pantomimes... or worse.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on December 17, 2012, 01:14:03 AM
And since when was the world split between only two government systems, democracy and dictatorships? It's not as black and white as that, and yet you would go so far as to say I am the one who needs educating, despite the gross ignorance you've just displayed.

Since democracies exist?... if you want, we can call them democracies and non-democratic governments? ... A democracy is like a contract, you try respect it or you break it... some, but not too many greys in the middle.

What I said, were that elections are not the best means by which a people are represented (short of perhaps, direct democracy). Of course some people immediately associate anything like that with tyranny and dictatorship, 'cause obviously the only form of freedom in this world comes at the end of a vote.

mmm... yes? Obviously, the vote isn’t enough, but for sure (until reading minds are tested and approved) is a needed steep for a democratic government... 'freedom' is a wonderful word, but it mean something distinct for every person, so, in the end, it don't have any real meaning.

I'm curious, if elections aren't the best way to represent people... what it's? and how it works?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 17, 2012, 01:54:14 AM
In Canada, political profiling by police is pretty standard procedure. The Canadian intelligence agency grouped up with the CIA to infiltrate a political party and steal membership lists. The War Measures Act was decreed in times of peace to have the armed forces arbitrarily arrest thousands of innocent people due to their political allegiance. Recently, wearing a political symbol was enough to get you detained without cause in some places. People peacefully protesting were given multi-hundred dollar fines for obstructing unused public roads. The federal government keeps cutting down "bureaucracy" and "red tape", however a clear pattern immediately presents itself where the ministries most aligned with the party's interests get almost no cuts and those least aligned get almost all of them. Protected waterways get reduced from thousands to just a few dozens, almost all of which in ridings held by the party in power. The newer bills being proposed at the federal level are hundreds of pages long so that nobody can make any sense of them, hiding a ton of non-budgetary laws in what would otherwise be a budget vote.

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

Democracy are the ideal model to strive for. Obtaining elected officials is not even a fraction of the job towards having a just and free society, however.

And this is only using Canada as an example, a NATO founding member, up-to-recently on the UN's security council, part of the G8, etc. And that's only part of the crap going on.

Poliorketes, you ask how many democracies use violence? They all do. The armed forces and police forces have the monopoly of legitimate violence. I didn't say they went about shooting everyone. But that doesn't mean that the army is never used. Nor does it mean that there is no violence. Because there is PLENTY of violence in the streets by the forces of "order" against peaceful protesters. Physical violence, as well as moral and financial violence by the use of courts, injunctions, and fines against legitimate pacific protests. The latest in Québec were the students against the tuition fee hikes. Hikes they wouldn't even suffer themselves, the hikes being gradual and only truly affecting the students who will sign up in three years or so. They protest to safeguard accessible public higher education. A fundamental necessity to a healthy democracy (going to school until you are 16 doesn't make you a good citizen, it barely teaches you to count). And yet they are demonized by two of the bigger parties, including the last one in power.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on December 17, 2012, 03:05:41 AM
Quote
Mendicant can only be deposed through rebellion, protests, or the public removing their consent.
And how would people "remove their consent"? Wouldn't someone else running and being elected equate to people removing their consent, and it being granted to someone else?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 17, 2012, 03:48:58 AM
And how would people "remove their consent"? Wouldn't someone else running and being elected equate to people removing their consent, and it being granted to someone else?

Nah, that'd be high treason.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on December 17, 2012, 04:13:29 AM
Well, yes, I see that he said that. But the whole system doesn't make sense. IMO it does the exact opposite of what he claims. It creates an exclusive old guard that is the only one that can ever win elections. Denying anyone else the opportunity to even run in an election is the most blatant example of it. How do people "remove consent"? Do 10 people have to stand up and say "go away mendicant"? 20? 30?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on December 17, 2012, 04:25:25 AM
You say it maintains the old guard, but I just got elected as banker. As for the position of general if people WANTED to see allomere gone they would vote in a new general. Probably the marshal of the imperial guard, but allomere wins battles so they don't.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on December 17, 2012, 04:59:43 AM
Mmmm... banker. Can you *feel* the power in your hands?

No offense to you here, but NobleWhatsit (sorry, can't remember the spelling) already told us that you're just a faceless functionary who exists simply to carry out his orders.

And I still want to know how the nobility is supposed to remove consent from Mendicant so they can put someone else in place. Since you're the banker of Aurvandil, and thus one of the top four most powerful nobles in the realm (which is odd, because you're just a functionary), perhaps you could explain the procedure for removing your consent for him to rule? Surely you must be aware of the criteria and/or procedure...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 17, 2012, 05:02:49 AM
*hint hint* remove mendincant lol IG... I mean lets just talk about it on the forums, cuz whats said here would never leak IG, and the last think we would want is for Aurvandiils nobles to *hint hint* RISE UP against Mendicant...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 17, 2012, 05:08:19 AM
Poliorketes, you ask how many democracies use violence? They all do. The armed forces and police forces have the monopoly of legitimate violence. I didn't say they went about shooting everyone. But that doesn't mean that the army is never used. Nor does it mean that there is no violence. Because there is PLENTY of violence in the streets by the forces of "order" against peaceful protesters. Physical violence, as well as moral and financial violence by the use of courts, injunctions, and fines against legitimate pacific protests. The latest in Québec were the students against the tuition fee hikes. Hikes they wouldn't even suffer themselves, the hikes being gradual and only truly affecting the students who will sign up in three years or so. They protest to safeguard accessible public higher education. A fundamental necessity to a healthy democracy (going to school until you are 16 doesn't make you a good citizen, it barely teaches you to count). And yet they are demonized by two of the bigger parties, including the last one in power.

"Financial violence" is not violence. Violence means, like, guns and bayonets and broken bottles and stuff.

Politicians speaking harshly about their opponents and publicly badmouthing protestors is not violence.

Police brutality is violence. But now we have to, again, recognize a slippery slope fallacy when we see one. Because democracies sometimes exercise violence, especially when other means are exhausted, in a generally constrained fashion does not make them categorically identical to, say, Syria's present regime, or Egypt, Tunisia, or Libya's former regimes. It just isn't the same. And to assert that those phenomena can even be discussed with the same words is to denigrate and demean the struggles of thousands of dead people fighting for rights, while inappropriately elevating the status of people who are already residents of some of the richest, most peaceful, most entitled, most powerful nations in the world.

I'm not saying, "Because there's someone worse off, you can't complain." I'm saying, "You can't complain with the same words."

*hint hint* remove mendincant lol IG... I mean lets just talk about it on the forums, cuz whats said here would never leak IG, and the last think we would want is for Aurvandiils nobles to *hint hint* RISE UP against Mendicant...

Personally, I don't want Mendicant removed. Hireshmont want to compel his debasement and force gross indignities upon him. Then maybe force him to become a priest or something.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on December 17, 2012, 05:20:11 AM
Then maybe force him to become a priest or something.

+1
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 17, 2012, 06:01:05 AM
+1
Breaks IRs though
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 17, 2012, 06:11:27 AM
*hint hint* remove mendincant lol IG... I mean lets just talk about it on the forums, cuz whats said here would never leak IG, and the last think we would want is for Aurvandiils nobles to *hint hint* RISE UP against Mendicant...
Quit with the thinly veiled cheating accusations. Indirik is arguing Mendicant's logic of his consent concept for his rule.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 17, 2012, 07:06:47 AM
Breaks IRs though

Was a joke. ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 17, 2012, 07:22:32 AM
Was a joke. ;)
I was merely pointing out it could never actually happen sadly, not that you would break IRs.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on December 17, 2012, 07:23:48 AM
It is true for all realms that the majority of characters are essentially automatons with barely any say in what goes on. It is also true for all realms that older players (and players who know each other from IRC...) tend to reserve most power for themselves. If it is true for Aurvandil as well, then at least they are roleplaying it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on December 17, 2012, 07:27:21 AM
Mmmm... banker. Can you *feel* the power in your hands?

No offense to you here, but NobleWhatsit (sorry, can't remember the spelling) already told us that you're just a faceless functionary who exists simply to carry out his orders.

And I still want to know how the nobility is supposed to remove consent from Mendicant so they can put someone else in place. Since you're the banker of Aurvandil, and thus one of the top four most powerful nobles in the realm (which is odd, because you're just a functionary), perhaps you could explain the procedure for removing your consent for him to rule? Surely you must be aware of the criteria and/or procedure...


hey hey I'm quite proud of my functionary position. Makes me feel almost important.

STEPS FOR REMOVING MENDICANT

1. acquire 6 ducklings

2. sacrifice 3 duclkings to the zuma and 3 to the bloodstars

3. wait 16.79 days

d.eat a sammwich(optional)

sinco: convince entire CE populace to move to dwilight

6. CE, Zuma and the astroists proceed to declare war on aurvandil

7. mendicant drowns them with gold from: THE ETERNAL TREASURY!tm

8.convince everyone that they need to oust mendicant because we can't afford sandwiches while maintaining our 1500cs per person law

9.commence Austille day (see what i did there?)

10. ??????

11. profit
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 17, 2012, 07:28:53 AM
It is true for all realms that the majority of characters are essentially automatons with barely any say in what goes on. It is also true for all realms that older players (and players who know each other from IRC...) tend to reserve most power for themselves. If it is true for Aurvandil as well, then at least they are roleplaying it.
Reserving power based on OOC things is Clanning which I will not blanket accuse all realms with let alone Aurvandil.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Eldargard on December 17, 2012, 08:55:02 AM
I do not really understand a few things regarding the Aurvandil government.

Some positions are elected. These positions are limited to civil service. People can not campaign or any of that. Candidates should be voted for based on perceived performance. All makes sense so far. Here is the confusing part: Who is allowed to run for a position? At one point it sounded as if no one aside for the incumbent was allowed to run which breaks the whole system.

The ruler is elected once. They rule at the consent of the people and for the people. Or some such. Without a regular vote, I can imagine only two ways to withdraw consent. Refuse to follow the orders of the government or try to rebel against and overthrow the government. Both sound like they would be treasonous acts. As was asked before, how then, can the people remove consent and oust the ruler?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 17, 2012, 01:28:52 PM
"Financial violence" is not violence. Violence means, like, guns and bayonets and broken bottles and stuff.

Politicians speaking harshly about their opponents and publicly badmouthing protestors is not violence.

Police brutality is violence. But now we have to, again, recognize a slippery slope fallacy when we see one. Because democracies sometimes exercise violence, especially when other means are exhausted, in a generally constrained fashion does not make them categorically identical to, say, Syria's present regime, or Egypt, Tunisia, or Libya's former regimes. It just isn't the same. And to assert that those phenomena can even be discussed with the same words is to denigrate and demean the struggles of thousands of dead people fighting for rights, while inappropriately elevating the status of people who are already residents of some of the richest, most peaceful, most entitled, most powerful nations in the world.

I'm not saying, "Because there's someone worse off, you can't complain." I'm saying, "You can't complain with the same words."

Non-physical violence is a universally accepted concept. A quick search on the internet yields this as the most-cited definition: Violence is "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation." If fines are used to intimidate and to financially cripple protesters (an anti-strike law was voted in, threatening tens of thousands of dollars in fines), I call it violence. If the police arbitrarily detain people for no motive whatsoever other than a political symbol that was worn, I call it unconstitutional political profiling and violence. If the police charges into a group of peaceful protesters in full armor to surround a group of protesters for hours without letting them leave, I call it violence.

I never mentioned Libya or Syria, nor Egypt and Tunesia. I never said our armies shoot into crowds to kill them. I'm just refusing to accept the dichotomy that it's either really really bad, or really really good. Our forces of order do shoot into peaceful crowds for political purposes. They just use less-lethal weapons, so the death rate is much lower. People still die, however, or lose their eyes, or get broken bones. It still happens. If it were the nutjobs attacking full-armored riot police with bricks, then I'd kinda understand. Usually, it's just people who were there in the wrong place at the wrong time. Often, they weren't even protesters. We cannot let our politicians use foreign tyrants as smoke guards to the problems of justice, legitimacy, and freedom in our own electoral systems. We must compare ourselves to the best, not the worst. And the way I see it, we have a LOT of work to do before we can call what we have a just and free government system. The existence of worse doesn't justify this, no matter its spread. "The systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective" is not limited to the Arab countries. State terrorism is done by some western democracies as well. And I am seriously concerned as to what it will evolve into. There is no excuse for systematically causing fear as a weapon against a political movement. The fines were so systematic that I was afraid to exercise my constitutional rights and join the peaceful protests. Employees who showed their support for the cause were systematically threatened.

Maybe they weren't shot and buried in some mass grave somewhere. Sure. But our democracy is still sick. The government still terrorizes its own citizen and robs them to enrich their own political parties and the firms that finance them. Corruption is here too.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 17, 2012, 02:55:09 PM
To get this thread back on topic, before I askew it again by replying to people.

Aurvandil has launched it's attack.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on December 17, 2012, 03:15:22 PM
Woohoo! Can't wait to see those battle reports rolling in!

Even if my character is a priest and can't fight, I can still llive vicariously through the battles of others. :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 17, 2012, 03:24:16 PM
Since democracies exist?... if you want, we can call them democracies and non-democratic governments? ... A democracy is like a contract, you try respect it or you break it... some, but not too many greys in the middle.

That's nonsense, anything that isn't a Democracy isn't automatically a Dictatorship though a lot of people in the modern world could do with learning the difference.

A Dictatorship is a country where it is ruled in absolute power, or by a Dictator, a Dictator being defined by the Oxford Dictionary as "a ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force. " Evidently this isn't applicable to all instances of non democratic government.


mmm... yes? Obviously, the vote isn’t enough, but for sure (until reading minds are tested and approved) is a needed steep for a democratic government... 'freedom' is a wonderful word, but it mean something distinct for every person, so, in the end, it don't have any real meaning.

I'm curious, if elections aren't the best way to represent people... what it's? and how it works?

That depends on what sort of representation you want, and there are a myriad of different types of representative government democratic and non democratic.

And how would people "remove their consent"? Wouldn't someone else running and being elected equate to people removing their consent, and it being granted to someone else?

As the people exist in open dialogue with their Monarch, and their Monarch answers to them, they have simply to cease providing their consent and Mendicant will abdicate as his coronation oath and fealty to the Commonwealth demands of him.

Well, yes, I see that he said that. But the whole system doesn't make sense. IMO it does the exact opposite of what he claims. It creates an exclusive old guard that is the only one that can ever win elections. Denying anyone else the opportunity to even run in an election is the most blatant example of it. How do people "remove consent"? Do 10 people have to stand up and say "go away mendicant"? 20? 30?

How does that even work? For a  start you can see for a fact that anyone can win elections, and frequently do, and then you can look at other positions and titles in Aurvandil, where they are deliberately given to the new players. Which is the opposite of an Old Guard hoarding power and controlling elections.

We don't deny people the opportunity to run in elections per se, they instead step up and offer themselves for the position.

As for your question, well you have only to look to previous examples in history where King's have been dethroned by popular demand, as they would be accepted means of removing Mendicant I.C.

Other examples are the Noblesse could one day just turn around one day and lock Mendicant in his throne room till he starves to death, or drown him in a vat of wine, or Mendicant could attend a meeting of the Noblesse one day and they simply dismiss his presence. Mendicant could wake up one night to see his entire palace has been abandoned and he's forced to flee like Nero did. Hell, the Knight Hausos At Arms could walk into the Throne Room, hand Mendicant a sword and tell him to relieve us of his presence and save himself from being deposed. The Gentry could simply acclaim a new Monarch, or declare Mendicant's Monarchy invalid, the Gentry could dissolve the Commonwealth and that would strip Mendicant of his throne. The Noblesse could revoke Mendicant's rank as High Sovereign, keep him as King of the Orvandeax and declare a new High Sovereign.

Yes, these are deliberately roleplay heavy means of removing Mendicant, because the game doesn't really support many other forms (And I'll be a good sport about it and roleplay along, hell I'll help them write it, I went into this expecting Mendicant's deposition by roleplay). And when Mendicant is finally deposed, it'll be done through roleplay means most likely. A rebellion would be dreadfully boring and divisive after all. The Orvandeaux aren't like the Averothoi after all, who can only accept a new government through rebellion, we'd rather take exception to it (The royal "We" right there).

But to directly answer your question, the people have only to make it clear Mendicant is to pack his bags and he'll do so.

You say it maintains the old guard, but I just got elected as banker. As for the position of general if people WANTED to see allomere gone they would vote in a new general. Probably the marshal of the imperial guard, but allomere wins battles so they don't.

There is no one better for the position of Knight Hausos, so Allomere is maintained in that position by being the best, he's never lead us wrong yet.

Mmmm... banker. Can you *feel* the power in your hands?

No offense to you here, but NobleWhatsit (sorry, can't remember the spelling) already told us that you're just a faceless functionary who exists simply to carry out his orders.

And I still want to know how the nobility is supposed to remove consent from Mendicant so they can put someone else in place. Since you're the banker of Aurvandil, and thus one of the top four most powerful nobles in the realm (which is odd, because you're just a functionary), perhaps you could explain the procedure for removing your consent for him to rule? Surely you must be aware of the criteria and/or procedure...

Lanyon didn't run for banker to get "power", anyone who runs just for power won't last long in Aurvandil, we have ways of dealing with them... camps... mass sterilisations... exile to the Whaling Fleet.

People who "deserve" power get power in Aurvandil, through one means or another. Drage for example, doesn't find his power as Vice Marshal or Royal Purser, but through the influence and authority he has a proven loyal noble and valued asset of the Commonwealth, which in turn grants him... other titles and favour in the Noblesse.


Personally, I don't want Mendicant removed. Hireshmont want to compel his debasement and force gross indignities upon him. Then maybe force him to become a priest or something.

That's cute, but the Orvandeaux hold honour in high esteem, and they'd rather see their High Sovereign fall in battle than reduced or debased, and Mendicant is obliged to do so by his own chivalry. Mendicant will die before he allows such small men to impose themselves on him, so you needn't bother hoping on forcing surrender terms on Mendicant, the Orvandeaux stand and fight, never surrender and never flee.

I do not really understand a few things regarding the Aurvandil government.

Some positions are elected. These positions are limited to civil service. People can not campaign or any of that. Candidates should be voted for based on perceived performance. All makes sense so far. Here is the confusing part: Who is allowed to run for a position? At one point it sounded as if no one aside for the incumbent was allowed to run which breaks the whole system.

The ruler is elected once. They rule at the consent of the people and for the people. Or some such. Without a regular vote, I can imagine only two ways to withdraw consent. Refuse to follow the orders of the government or try to rebel against and overthrow the government. Both sound like they would be treasonous acts. As was asked before, how then, can the people remove consent and oust the ruler?

The ruler isn't elected, Mendicant just declared himself so.

Anyone is allowed to run for the position, so long as they are within the law. The laws state only a Cavalier may become High Sovereign (Anyone who runs and isn't a Cavalier has committed High Treason and an attempt to usurp the throne), and only a hero can become Knight Hausos (The Knight Hausos is expected, nay obligated to die and to do so in good time and fashion before their prolonged life becomes shameful to them, like Allomere) .



Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 17, 2012, 03:27:27 PM
Woohoo! Can't wait to see those battle reports rolling in!

Even if my character is a priest and can't fight, I can still llive vicariously through the battles of others. :P

Prepare to be disappointed, Terran are off wasting their time in Paisland with D'Hara, the rest of D'Hara appear to be losing to Luria Nova and Barca seem to have their army on the other side of their realm whilst leaving about 60 men to defend Rettleville (Genius, I know) which is just ridiculous when you consider that they recently attacked Gallaecia but then made no defences to prepare for an Aurvandilan retalation.

And as Barca actually dares to fight and attack Aurvandil, we shall honour their valour. As opposed to Terran and D'Hara who just... hide behind their walls and the time and never dare to attack Aurvandil (Which is immensely boring for us to deal with and amounts to little more than low gains attrition for us). Barca are thus the bravest and most honourable of the Veinsormoot, whilst being the smallest, poorest and weakest, and that is worthy of respect.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on December 17, 2012, 04:20:05 PM
Barca are thus the bravest and most honourable of the Veinsormoot, whilst being the smallest, poorest and weakest, and that is worthy of respect.
Thank you.  ::) I always considered ourselves such, haha.

And the last time we were in Gallaecia, we had hoped to do a little more than sitting around.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 17, 2012, 05:03:52 PM
Oh, did you arrive in Barca? I didn't even notice!  :P

That would explain those huge multicolour feather headdresses poking out among Rettlewood forests... and the cries of the people robbed and their possessions looted, of course.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 17, 2012, 05:17:22 PM
Thank you.  ::) I always considered ourselves such, haha.

And the last time we were in Gallaecia, we had hoped to do a little more than sitting around.

And Barca is such, your defiance is much greater than that of your allies.

I imagine you wanted to run a take over to give you access to Evanburg, realised you didn't have enough men and contented yourselves on the granaries of Gallaecia before just wandering off again, we wouldn't have known you had been there at all if it wasn't for the infiltrator getting caught.

Oh, did you arrive in Barca? I didn't even notice!  :P

That would explain those huge multicolour feather headdresses poking out among Rettlewood forests... and the cries of the people robbed and their possessions looted, of course.

We didn't loot their possessions, we set them on fire, as it turns out the people of Rettlewood have very little.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 17, 2012, 05:35:51 PM
Was the Barcan noble you caught an infiltrator? So that's why she was tortured without a word from your butchers...

And Barca is such, your defiance is much greater than that of your allies.

I imagine you wanted to run a take over to give you access to Evanburg, realised you didn't have enough men and contented yourselves on the granaries of Gallaecia before just wandering off again, we wouldn't have known you had been there at all if it wasn't for the infiltrator getting caught.

We didn't loot their possessions, we set them on fire, as it turns out the people of Rettlewood have very little.

I would be appreciative of those words, but since you put them in the same topic that your triumphal vision setting peasants on fire, I think I'm not. And yes, the full Gallaecian attemp was as almost as you describe, but our troops carried lunch with them, so they didn't have to touch Aurvandilian grain.

I guess it's true our peasants haven't got much of worth, your comrades and you are dedicating intensively to find some souvenir to take to your wives. I wouldn't like to know what you do to the enemies whose valour you don't recognize...  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 17, 2012, 05:53:34 PM
Was the Barcan noble you caught an infiltrator? So that's why she was tortured without a word from your butchers...

I would be appreciative of those words, but since you put them in the same topic that your triumphal vision setting peasants on fire, I think I'm not. And yes, the full Gallaecian attemp was as almost as you describe, but our troops carried lunch with them, so they didn't have to touch Aurvandilian grain.

I guess it's true our peasants haven't got much of worth, your comrades and you are dedicating intensively to find some souvenir to take to your wives. I wouldn't like to know what you do to the enemies whose valour you don't recognize...  ::)

We're not setting the peasants on fire, that would be distasteful. We are however burning down their homes and crops so as to cripple the Barcan economy once again, whilst we honour your valour, we disapprove of the distraction in a nigh endless war.  There is little value in killing peasants for peasants sake, but damaging the Barcan economy holds worth in this fight. We will most likely just knock you back out of the war for a few months again so we can focus on our other enemies, whilst they remain behind the walls of Paisly.

And what we do to enemies whose valour and honour we find lacking, we "Madina" them, so named after what we did to Madina City. It wasn't pretty.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 17, 2012, 06:08:07 PM
And what we do to enemies whose valour and honour we find lacking, we "Madina" them, so named after what we did to Madina City. It wasn't pretty.

Hum. Said I wouldn't like to know, pal... But thanks for sharing... I guess... ;D

Well, I hope next time we'll be able to give you a warmer welcome so you won't have to make fire of crops and homes. 

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on December 17, 2012, 08:15:21 PM
Non-physical violence is a universally accepted concept. A quick search on the internet yields this as the most-cited definition: Violence is "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation." If fines are used to intimidate and to financially cripple protesters (an anti-strike law was voted in, threatening tens of thousands of dollars in fines), I call it violence. If the police arbitrarily detain people for no motive whatsoever other than a political symbol that was worn, I call it unconstitutional political profiling and violence. If the police charges into a group of peaceful protesters in full armor to surround a group of protesters for hours without letting them leave, I call it violence.

I never mentioned Libya or Syria, nor Egypt and Tunesia. I never said our armies shoot into crowds to kill them. I'm just refusing to accept the dichotomy that it's either really really bad, or really really good. Our forces of order do shoot into peaceful crowds for political purposes. They just use less-lethal weapons, so the death rate is much lower. People still die, however, or lose their eyes, or get broken bones. It still happens. If it were the nutjobs attacking full-armored riot police with bricks, then I'd kinda understand. Usually, it's just people who were there in the wrong place at the wrong time. Often, they weren't even protesters. We cannot let our politicians use foreign tyrants as smoke guards to the problems of justice, legitimacy, and freedom in our own electoral systems. We must compare ourselves to the best, not the worst. And the way I see it, we have a LOT of work to do before we can call what we have a just and free government system. The existence of worse doesn't justify this, no matter its spread. "The systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective" is not limited to the Arab countries. State terrorism is done by some western democracies as well. And I am seriously concerned as to what it will evolve into. There is no excuse for systematically causing fear as a weapon against a political movement. The fines were so systematic that I was afraid to exercise my constitutional rights and join the peaceful protests. Employees who showed their support for the cause were systematically threatened.

Maybe they weren't shot and buried in some mass grave somewhere. Sure. But our democracy is still sick. The government still terrorizes its own citizen and robs them to enrich their own political parties and the firms that finance them. Corruption is here too.

There are people who argue the same thing in the U.S. You know what we do to them? Ignore them, because they tend to be the conspiracy theorist crackpots.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 17, 2012, 08:31:31 PM
There are people who argue the same thing in the U.S. You know what we do to them? Ignore them, because they tend to be the conspiracy theorist crackpots.

I don't care for most conspiracy theories.

But people ignoring marginal opinions are the core of the problem with electoral systems. Ignoring minority opinions is the first step to ignoring minority rights and constructing a tyranny of the majority.

But to be quite honest, I have no idea what the heck I said that you can compare to conspiracy theories. Everything I stated was documented and is generally acknowledged. Corruption? There's a public inquiry going on right now that keeps putting out names. And even before that, for years we've only had scandal after scandal of it. Political profiling? Even journalists from some of the top provincial newspaper tried it out, and got arrested and harassed as soon s they put the red square on (a bit of tissue representing opposition to tuition fee hikes). Fines, arbitrary arrests, police brutality... it's all plenty documented. Look up agent "728" for just an example, a female officer that took joy in beating up protesters, peppering them for nothing, and even invaded someone's home for no reason, strangled him for merely asking what he was being arrested for, and stealing their cell phones (which she accidentally turned on, allowing one of the guy's friend to record her conversation to her superior about how she beat up these "rats" with very colorful language).

Conspiracy... it's just "business". That's what they call it. You want your firm to win a contract and get a ton of "extras", better bribe an public servant for him to approve your overpriced submission, threaten competitors, and hold events to finance the minister's campaign. This is all public knowledge. This was all confirmed in the public inquiry (though we knew since long ago).

Call people who hold marginal opinions "conspiracy theorist crackpots" if you want. But then again, you are stuck with a two-party system in which the contenders have nothing but cosmetic differences between them. Great democracy there, am I ever so envious. Hard to pity those under a one-party system when regardless of your vote you end up with basically the same policies.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on December 17, 2012, 08:52:13 PM
I would like to gently but firmly urge that discussion of RL political systems, philosophies, and suchlike be moved to a more appropriate subforum.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 17, 2012, 08:53:09 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_General_of_Canada

Great democracy there. :P

You obviously missed my non-ending rants about Canadian democracy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 17, 2012, 10:42:55 PM
To get this thread back on topic, before I askew it again by replying to people.

Aurvandil has launched it's attack.

This'll be a interesting campaign. The war has entered a strange phase– there are lots of things that MIGHT happen, but we'll see how things turn out.

You have indeed invaded Rettlewood; we'll see how far that gets you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 18, 2012, 12:18:22 AM
This'll be a interesting campaign. The war has entered a strange phase– there are lots of things that MIGHT happen, but we'll see how things turn out.

You have indeed invaded Rettlewood; we'll see how far that gets you.

One thing you don't realise is that Rettlewood isn't protected by the Zuma. I spoke with Haktoo extensively and it turns out the treaty Barca made was exceptionally flawed and gave me great extent to prosecute war on Barca without incurring her wrath. Barca got cocky and ballsed up the treaty in their haste.

Assuming that is what you hope will happen.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 18, 2012, 12:38:52 AM
One thing you don't realise is that Rettlewood isn't protected by the Zuma. I spoke with Haktoo extensively and it turns out the treaty Barca made was exceptionally flawed and gave me great extent to prosecute war on Barca without incurring her wrath. Barca got cocky and ballsed up the treaty in their haste.

Assuming that is what you hope will happen.

I prefer not to reveal sensitive IC correspondence on the forum. ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on December 18, 2012, 01:04:11 AM
Why not just kill Zuma along with Barca?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on December 18, 2012, 01:12:22 AM
Go Aurvandil! Go Aurvandil! Kill the Zuma! Go Aurvandil!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 01:27:55 AM
Why not just kill Zuma along with Barca?

Yea. If the 'moot is so unworthy go bash the Zuma to show everyone your real strength.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on December 18, 2012, 03:15:26 AM
Yea. If the 'moot is so unworthy go bash the Zuma to show everyone your real strength.

So the unworthy moot can stab Aurvandil in the back? Better to remove the moot first
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on December 18, 2012, 03:49:24 AM
Go Aurvandil! Go Aurvandil! Kill the Zuma! Go Aurvandil!

Yesss.  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 04:01:26 AM
So the unworthy moot can stab Aurvandil in the back? Better to remove the moot first

Same northern front. A real badass could take both on at the same time. Us insignificant bugs can grasp for crumbs.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on December 18, 2012, 05:29:51 AM
The Barcans, and the moot as a whole, would be doing better if there was more communication. I have never once received a letter from a Barcan, and I am a full member of the guild for the moot. I think they hear our messages, but we never hear a reply from them, at least not as far as I know.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 18, 2012, 08:43:23 AM
The Barcans, and the moot as a whole, would be doing better if there was more communication. I have never once received a letter from a Barcan, and I am a full member of the guild for the moot. I think they hear our messages, but we never hear a reply from them, at least not as far as I know.

Truth.

They usually tell us what's going on down there... after it actually happens.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 12:36:15 PM
Truth.

They usually tell us what's going on down there... after it actually happens.

Yea, and only to the elders.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 18, 2012, 04:21:27 PM
The Barcans, and the moot as a whole, would be doing better if there was more communication. I have never once received a letter from a Barcan, and I am a full member of the guild for the moot. I think they hear our messages, but we never hear a reply from them, at least not as far as I know.

You sound exactly like I did in dealings with Barca...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 18, 2012, 05:15:52 PM
Aurvandil can't do anything till the Veinsormoot decide they want peace.

You sound exactly like I did in dealings with Barca...

And when I was dealing with Barca as well, suffice to say Barca don't make for good compatriots or partners

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 18, 2012, 05:21:09 PM
"Barca may be a sonofabitch, but it's our sonofabitch, dammit!"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 05:27:08 PM
"Barca may be a sonofabitch, but it's our sonofabitch, dammit!"

True dat.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 18, 2012, 05:33:57 PM
Aurvandil can't do anything till the Veinsormoot decide they want peace.

And when I was dealing with Barca as well, suffice to say Barca don't make for good compatriots or partners

I guess that means that Aurvandilians will keep on raiding Barca until their allies decide to pact. In such a different way, I think Aurvandil wouldn't make for good compatriots or partners. But that should be decided by Terran and D'Hara, which I think don't need any propaganda to do so.

I'd have liked also to see sometimes more communication in Barca, but none of us should see it from a IC point of view. I just know an isolated case, but probably many of our realm-mates can't dedicate themselves as they'd like to the game. And with a slight amount of players in our realm, it affects a lot to its development. Honestly, I think it's as simple as that.

Quote
"Barca may be a sonofabitch, but it's our sonofabitch, dammit!"

That's very kind of you guys...  ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 05:36:20 PM
That's very kind of you guys...  ;)

No matter how old or big or strong Barca may one day grow to be, I think both Terran and D'Hara will always view themselves as its parents. Maybe not in a patronizing way, but at least in a protective way.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 18, 2012, 05:42:43 PM
No matter how old or big or strong Barca may one day grow to be, I think both Terran and D'Hara will always view themselves as its parents. Maybe not in a patronizing way, but at least in a protective way.

And a historical, "Yes this is actually the truth" kind of way.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 18, 2012, 06:14:58 PM
Oh Barca, the red headed stepchild of southern Dwilight... The Tiny Tim of the Marociddens.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 18, 2012, 07:03:00 PM
Oh Barca, the red headed stepchild of southern Dwilight... The Tiny Tim of the Marociddens.

The what?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 07:06:32 PM
And a historical, "Yes this is actually the truth" kind of way.

And it WILL grow to be large and powerful one day. We'll make sure of that.

Sure would help if they had more nobles, though...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 18, 2012, 08:32:51 PM
Being active, responding to communications and interesting insures success.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 18, 2012, 10:50:58 PM
And it WILL grow to be large and powerful one day. We'll make sure of that.

Sure would help if they had more nobles, though...

Quite the substantial boast when both Terran and D'Hara are weak (Terran less so), you are only strong in your needless defiance, but it seems defiance alone isn't getting you any closer to beating Aurvandil. We're pretty used to being bored to death in war Madina were quite good at it, but it only brought them just over a year of war till they finally succumbed. I suppose we'll have to do the same with the Veinsormoot as they seem to believe in the virtue of war for wars sake.


I guess that means that Aurvandilians will keep on raiding Barca until their allies decide to pact. In such a different way, I think Aurvandil wouldn't make for good compatriots or partners. But that should be decided by Terran and D'Hara, which I think don't need any propaganda to do so.

I'd have liked also to see sometimes more communication in Barca, but none of us should see it from a IC point of view. I just know an isolated case, but probably many of our realm-mates can't dedicate themselves as they'd like to the game. And with a slight amount of players in our realm, it affects a lot to its development. Honestly, I think it's as simple as that.

That's very kind of you guys...  ;)

We only raid Barca when they give us reason to do so, you attacked Gallaecia and the Provincia, so we loot Rettleville. That and it's good at provoking the Veinsormoot, since they retreat and hide behind walls every time we march north. If they won't bother to war us, we may as well preserve our forces, bring Aurvandil back up to the full strength we had at the start of the war and then zerg rush the Moot to ruin.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 10:56:31 PM
Quite the substantial boast when both Terran and D'Hara are weak (Terran less so), you are only strong in your needless defiance, but it seems defiance alone isn't getting you any closer to beating Aurvandil.

D'Hara has regained pretty much all of its lands, despite ongoing wars.

I'd say we are doing just fine.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 18, 2012, 11:05:42 PM
D'Hara has regained pretty much all of its lands, despite ongoing wars.

I'd say we are doing just fine.

Yes, well that isn't saying much when you have had months to do so by and large unopposed unless you count one Lurian incursion and the Provincia, with massive allied aid.

You're doing "fine", well you haven't advanced your war aims whatsoever, the most damage done to Aurvandil was by war protests and you have yet to win a single battle against us. If you call that doing fine, I question what you would consider doing badly. Because I consider Aurvandil to be performing awfully, and yet we've actually achieved much from our strength, and its only by our refusal to press our advantage early on when you were all starving to misery that the war is so static at the moment.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on December 18, 2012, 11:07:16 PM
Oh Barca, the red headed stepchild of southern Dwilight... The Tiny Tim of the Marociddens.

The magicarp of countries?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 18, 2012, 11:09:12 PM
Quite the substantial boast when both Terran and D'Hara are weak (Terran less so), you are only strong in your needless defiance, but it seems defiance alone isn't getting you any closer to beating Aurvandil. We're pretty used to being bored to death in war Madina were quite good at it, but it only brought them just over a year of war till they finally succumbed. I suppose we'll have to do the same with the Veinsormoot as they seem to believe in the virtue of war for wars sake.


We only raid Barca when they give us reason to do so, you attacked Gallaecia and the Provincia, so we loot Rettleville. That and it's good at provoking the Veinsormoot, since they retreat and hide behind walls every time we march north. If they won't bother to war us, we may as well preserve our forces, bring Aurvandil back up to the full strength we had at the start of the war and then zerg rush the Moot to ruin.

Methinks, as in the diplomatic issues Aurvandil had earlier, you still don't understand the larger strategy of this war.

In Battlemaster, it is quite far from impossible to lose almost every battle and yet have crushing victory in war. And we certainly haven't lost every battle, as the CS charts make clear.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 18, 2012, 11:11:37 PM
Yes, well that isn't saying much when you have had months to do so by and large unopposed unless you count one Lurian incursion and the Provincia, with massive allied aid.

You're doing "fine", well you haven't advanced your war aims whatsoever, the most damage done to Aurvandil was by war protests and you have yet to win a single battle against us. If you call that doing fine, I question what you would consider doing badly. Because I consider Aurvandil to be performing awfully, and yet we've actually achieved much from our strength, and its only by our refusal to press our advantage early on when you were all starving to misery that the war is so static at the moment.

We have won some battles. Again, go look at the CS charts. BM's declared winner is irrelevant.

D'Hara has grown in land, income, CS, and population. They have done so while fighting two wars with varying intensity. They have reconquered numerous regions since the Long Winter.

The Moot is weaker than it was at the start of the war (Terran is stronger, but Barca and D'Hara are weaker). However, Aurvandil is also significantly weaker.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 11:12:29 PM
Yes, well that isn't saying much when you have had months to do so by and large unopposed unless you count one Lurian incursion and the Provincia, with massive allied aid.

You're doing "fine", well you haven't advanced your war aims whatsoever, the most damage done to Aurvandil was by war protests and you have yet to win a single battle against us. If you call that doing fine, I question what you would consider doing badly. Because I consider Aurvandil to be performing awfully, and yet we've actually achieved much from our strength, and its only by our refusal to press our advantage early on when you were all starving to misery that the war is so static at the moment.

D'Hara isn't actually at war with you... And you assume our priorities are the same as yours. Yet I think it has been pretty clearly demonstrated that we don't operate the same way at all. Because from where we stand, Aurvandil hasn't  achieved much of anything. D'Hara was crippled by starvation, Barca by a sneak attack.

We don't even need to loot you, your regions revolt on their own. And nowadays your tax rates are much closer to what would otherwise be considered normal.

Nah, we've been involved on two fronts against two behemoths, and we barely lost any ground in the East while we regained a ton of land in the West. Ya, I'd say we did just fine.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 18, 2012, 11:15:23 PM
Methinks, as in the diplomatic issues Aurvandil had earlier, you still don't understand the larger strategy of this war.

In Battlemaster, it is quite far from impossible to lose almost every battle and yet have crushing victory in war. And we certainly haven't lost every battle, as the CS charts make clear.

No I understand the strategy well enough, and I am dismissive of it, you can use war protests and dog pile enemies on me as much as you like whilst trying to drum up support for wars against the Freestate which you still seem to believe are controlled by Aurvandil (Despite the fact I haven't sent my armies over to Madina Fissoa city so Falkirk can scourge the D'Haran isle, which is what I would have done if I had the power to command Lex). At some point, you will have to come south and fight Aurvandil, infiltrators, priests and war coding will only get you so far.

And well, what battle have you won? Swatting the Provincia doesn't count.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 18, 2012, 11:18:36 PM
D'Hara isn't actually at war with you... And you assume our priorities are the same as yours. Yet I think it has been pretty clearly demonstrated that we don't operate the same way at all. Because from where we stand, Aurvandil hasn't  achieved much of anything. D'Hara was crippled by starvation, Barca by a sneak attack.

We don't even need to loot you, your regions revolt on their own. And nowadays your tax rates are much closer to what would otherwise be considered normal.

Nah, we've been involved on two fronts against two behemoths, and we barely lost any ground in the East while we regained a ton of land in the West. Ya, I'd say we did just fine.

It's a de facto war.

And no, our tax rates are back up to their original levels, we worked quick to repair our lands. What hurt us, was losing Evanburg, but all of our regions are back to their old levels so I hope you weren't hoping on that. It isn't hard to run high taxes efficiently, and it isn't hard to restore regions. You should have attacked when we were crippled by war protests, you would have driven us into the ground, but you didn't, you sat around and let us regain our regions and our strength.

And our regions don't revolt of their own accord, save for Celtiberia, and we'll bring that region into line.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 11:20:10 PM
Celtiberia counts. :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 18, 2012, 11:22:59 PM
No I understand the strategy well enough, and I am dismissive of it, you can use war protests and dog pile enemies on me as much as you like whilst trying to drum up support for wars against the Freestate which you still seem to believe are controlled by Aurvandil (Despite the fact I haven't sent my armies over to Madina Fissoa city so Falkirk can scourge the D'Haran isle, which is what I would have done if I had the power to command Lex). At some point, you will have to come south and fight Aurvandil, infiltrators, priests and war coding will only get you so far.

And well, what battle have you won? Swatting the Provincia doesn't count.

1. We don't have to come south. Maybe we will, but that's far from necessary. Again, you really don't get the strategy at work here, or even our objectives. But I'll leave that to IC.

2. We won the last campaign pretty solidly. Again, look at the CS chart. In fact, the whole history of the war has been one of Terran displaying a faster and bigger recovery after each campaign than Aurvandil. Maybe ya'll will turn that around this time, wouldn't surprise me, but thus far you've managed to "win" battles but lose every fighting season.

The Moot has seen uninhibited growth since the Long Winter, but Aurvandil continues to struggle.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 11:28:28 PM
1. We don't have to come south. Maybe we will, but that's far from necessary. Again, you really don't get the strategy at work here, or even our objectives. But I'll leave that to IC.

2. We won the last campaign pretty solidly. Again, look at the CS chart. In fact, the whole history of the war has been one of Terran displaying a faster and bigger recovery after each campaign than Aurvandil. Maybe ya'll will turn that around this time, wouldn't surprise me, but thus far you've managed to "win" battles but lose every fighting season.

The Moot has seen uninhibited growth since the Long Winter, but Aurvandil continues to struggle.

This. And hey, Luria Nova wants to attack you too... it's not like the Luria-D'Hara conflict will last forever. Once the big ol' Lurian family is reunited, I'm sure they'll be able to send you plenty of christmas gifts.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 18, 2012, 11:29:17 PM
Celtiberia counts. :P

Lost Celtiberia, regained Evanburg. A fair trade.

1. We don't have to come south. Maybe we will, but that's far from necessary. Again, you really don't get the strategy at work here, or even our objectives. But I'll leave that to IC.

2. We won the last campaign pretty solidly. Again, look at the CS chart. In fact, the whole history of the war has been one of Terran displaying a faster and bigger recovery after each campaign than Aurvandil. Maybe ya'll will turn that around this time, wouldn't surprise me, but thus far you've managed to "win" battles but lose every fighting season.

The Moot has seen uninhibited growth since the Long Winter, but Aurvandil continues to struggle.

You recover yes, but to what end? You don't march your armies, you don't fight. Aurvandil only weakens itself by marching to fight you, so what happens when we refuse? What happens when we keep the armies in our barracks, hoard our gold and prepare ourselves for a protracted siege of the Commonwealth. As you will recall, Aurvandil can reach 60,000 C.S. when we are given the time to do so.

So, either Aurvandil weakens itself in marching to fight you and wasting soldiers on campaigns, and you "recover" or we keep our forces at home, build them up to strength and then you are forced to march against us, and who then will be in the better position?

I am sure this is just the opening moves of your strategy no doubt, whilst Aurvandil wastes its strength and you bide your time however.

Well, it's not like we'd just burn our energy in this duel on swiping at you unless we were prepared for the consequences of such expenditure. I would like to see what your next move is, we only attack you because you won't attack us, after all.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 18, 2012, 11:42:30 PM
Lost Celtiberia, regained Evanburg. A fair trade.

You recover yes, but to what end? You don't march your armies, you don't fight. Aurvandil only weakens itself by marching to fight you, so what happens when we refuse? What happens when we keep the armies in our barracks, hoard our gold and prepare ourselves for a protracted siege of the Commonwealth. As you will recall, Aurvandil can reach 60,000 C.S. when we are given the time to do so.

So, either Aurvandil weakens itself in marching to fight you and wasting soldiers on campaigns, and you "recover" or we keep our forces at home, build them up to strength and then you are forced to march against us, and who then will be in the better position?

I am sure this is just the opening moves of your strategy no doubt, whilst Aurvandil wastes its strength and you bide your time however.

Well, it's not like we'd just burn our energy in this duel on swiping at you unless we were prepared for the consequences of such expenditure. I would like to see what your next move is, we only attack you because you won't attack us, after all.

You really only think about this one way, don't you? It's all about stacking up CS so you can march in and capture a city and show'em who's boss?

Why on earth should that be the Moot's goal? What do we possibly gain by sacking Candiels?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on December 18, 2012, 11:44:49 PM
Aurvandil should just destroy the Moot and get this over with.

Zaki cheers for Aurvandil
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 18, 2012, 11:46:47 PM
You really only think about this one way, don't you? It's all about stacking up CS so you can march in and capture a city and show'em who's boss?

Why on earth should that be the Moot's goal? What do we possibly gain by sacking Candiels?

Oh God. You are actually trying to just be a minor inconvenience aren't you.

That is just cruel.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 18, 2012, 11:48:01 PM
Aurvandil should just destroy the Moot and get this over with.

Zaki cheers for Aurvandil

But what would Aurvandil stand to gain?

A vast and sprawling empire? They'd set to fighting each other if it came to that. Victory over the Moot would leave Aurvandil without nearby enemies. Maybe they'd go long-distance against Astroism, or go fight Fissoa– but that wouldn't seem in keeping with their prodigious honor.

No, they'd eat each other.

Neither side really stands to gain more than a few rurals at best, in terms of raw conquest.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 18, 2012, 11:49:11 PM
Oh God. You are actually trying to just be a minor inconvenience aren't you.

That is just cruel.

Actually, we are diehard Mendicant loyalists, ensuring you always have an external foe around which to unite your people.

That's even why we mock you on the forum: to supply Aurvandil's players a sense of OOC solidarity.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 18, 2012, 11:49:51 PM
Actually, we are diehard Mendicant loyalists, ensuring you always have an external foe around which to unite your people.

That's even why we mock you on the forum: to supply Aurvandil's players a sense of OOC solidarity.

Stop spilling the beans!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 18, 2012, 11:51:05 PM
But what would Aurvandil stand to gain?

A vast and sprawling empire? They'd set to fighting each other if it came to that. Victory over the Moot would leave Aurvandil without nearby enemies. Maybe they'd go long-distance against Astroism, or go fight Fissoa– but that wouldn't seem in keeping with their prodigious honor.

No, they'd eat each other.

Neither side really stands to gain more than a few rurals at best, in terms of raw conquest.

Your lands would be given to whomever would have them, if we could give them away that is. Not that we want to conquer you all to begin with.

Falkirk will be our enemies.

The Anti Monarchists will be tested in battle by the Orvandeaux. They fight well against Fissoa, whom they humiliate with great regularity, at least the Falk'yrj'an's can be trusted to face us in honourable combat.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 18, 2012, 11:53:11 PM
Actually, we are diehard Mendicant loyalists, ensuring you always have an external foe around which to unite your people.

That's even why we mock you on the forum: to supply Aurvandil's players a sense of OOC solidarity.

A cruel fate!

Aurvandil can never implode if we're forced to exert ourselves outwards, how sinister of you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 19, 2012, 02:12:05 AM
A cruel fate!

Aurvandil can never implode if we're forced to exert ourselves outwards, how sinister of you.

Oh, the Moot is nothing if not sinister. It's why we have handled the war so... un-dextrously.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on December 19, 2012, 02:19:49 AM
It takes some serious effort and deviousness to be that bad?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on December 19, 2012, 02:27:12 AM
Oh, the Moot is nothing if not sinister. It's why we have handled the war so... un-dextrously.

I shudder to think what you could come up with if you tried with both hands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on December 19, 2012, 03:08:15 AM
1. We don't have to come south. Maybe we will, but that's far from necessary. Again, you really don't get the strategy at work here, or even our objectives. But I'll leave that to IC.

2. We won the last campaign pretty solidly. Again, look at the CS chart. In fact, the whole history of the war has been one of Terran displaying a faster and bigger recovery after each campaign than Aurvandil. Maybe ya'll will turn that around this time, wouldn't surprise me, but thus far you've managed to "win" battles but lose every fighting season.

The Moot has seen uninhibited growth since the Long Winter, but Aurvandil continues to struggle.

Only on the battlemaster forums will people say that charts matter more than actually victories. just FYI the greatest deal of our loses were from starvation in taking Celtiberia (because my army doesn't listen to me -.-)



No, they'd eat each other.

Neither side really stands to gain more than a few rurals at best, in terms of raw conquest.

I think we would more likely become a libero and just be boring. the dukes are to pro-aurvandil to even think of revolting.

We stand to gain the honour of defeating the corrupt republics that are cheap facsimiles of true and righteous government. Oh! and oranges. WE SHALL HAVE YOUR ORANGES!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 19, 2012, 03:16:20 AM
I shudder to think what you could come up with if you tried with both hands.

Awe-inspiring mediocrity.

Only on the battlemaster forums will people say that charts matter more than actually victories. just FYI the greatest deal of our loses were from starvation in taking Celtiberia (because my army doesn't listen to me -.-)


I think we would more likely become a libero and just be boring. the dukes are to pro-aurvandil to even think of revolting.

We stand to gain the honour of defeating the corrupt republics that are cheap facsimiles of true and righteous government. Oh! and oranges. WE SHALL HAVE YOUR ORANGES!

If your battles were significant, it'd show on the statistics charts.

As for oranges, I'm afraid you are out of luck. I hear Lurians grow 'em though. We do have pomegranates, however, which are infinitely superior to oranges.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on December 19, 2012, 06:47:54 AM
Which war also demonstrates that casualties and soldiers lost in battle don't matter: your ability to replace losses is what matters.

I'm supporting your argument, derp.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Eldargard on December 19, 2012, 07:59:01 AM
Poor Barca, however, gets to live right in the middle of the three larger, waring realms...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on December 19, 2012, 03:45:44 PM
You're doing "fine", well you haven't advanced your war aims whatsoever, the most damage done to Aurvandil was by war protests and you have yet to win a single battle against us.

You have something to this effect several times now; your amazement at the 'Moot not attacking Aurvandil, at the 'Moot "hiding behind walls" all the time, and not having the honor to come out and fight Aurvandil, all the while Aurvandil has been just so "forced" to come attack the 'Moot.


....is it finally dawning on you yet that that is because Aurvandil is the aggressor in this war and the 'Moot is on defense just like we have all been saying since Day 1? Because, yeah, that's generally how things go when a stronger, militaristic realm attacks some weaker, peaceful realms: the stronger realm launches attacks against the smaller realms who hide behind walls because they are, you know, weaker... and, you know, defending.


---


In other news.... Aurvandil is back to calling Barca uncivilized... their General declaring Barca the "Farmer Republic" needing to be put in their place.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 19, 2012, 06:01:05 PM
Weaker, peaceful... Terran attacked Kabrinskia, not vise versa.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on December 19, 2012, 11:17:49 PM
Could we have a moderator put all the military arguments into a separate thread?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on December 20, 2012, 12:13:03 AM
The Union was never losing, only at risk of losing. The odds were on their side the whole time.

Not true for WW1 and definitely not true for WW2. If soldiers ever lacked for weapons it was due to logistical problems in getting the weapons to them NOT because they didn't have enough weapons to begin with.

USSR had superior manufacturing capabilities as well major support from USA. They also had superior numbers and as the war progressed the technological edge of either powers' armaments swung back and forth, always in contention. One thing that remained stable though is that German engineering tended towards more extravagant weaponry and that's what's earned them the myth that they totally had the Soviets outclassed techwise. Soviet weaponry for it's part was robust, easy to repair and easy to manufacture.

But still inferior. German weaponry, artillery, and armor outclassed the Soviets, and the combined factors of hostile terrain and sheer numbers are what ended up winning the day for the Soviets, who while possessing a robust manufacturing base, did not have enough armaments in the beginning of the war to equip all of their men. The Soviets spent the blood of their people quite recklessly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on December 20, 2012, 12:24:36 AM
The T-34 was more capable (leaving out the lack of radio equipment) than most of the panzers employed by the germans, barring the Tiger, until the introduction of the Panther and King Tiger. Then, as it was with the western allies, sheer weight of numbers told.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on December 20, 2012, 12:30:08 AM
The T-34 was more capable (leaving out the lack of radio equipment) than most of the panzers employed by the germans, barring the Tiger, until the introduction of the Panther and King Tiger. Then, as it was with the western allies, sheer weight of numbers told.

If you consider a tank that can't travel capable. In June 1941 half a CORP was lost on the way to Dubno, not to enemy fire, but to wear and tear.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on December 20, 2012, 01:57:08 AM
yes, mechanical issues dogged the T-34. That was early in the war, many of those issues were partially fixed by the time the Soviet army was on the offensive.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on December 20, 2012, 02:00:45 AM
If you consider a tank that can't travel capable. In June 1941 half a CORP was lost on the way to Dubno, not to enemy fire, but to wear and tear.


mmm... I consider a tank than is better armed, better protected, faster, lighter, cheaper and with a very low kg/cm2 (this in on snow or mud terrain is VERY important)

The BT-7, BT-9 and T-26 were better than the Pz-I and Pz-II, the T-34 was better than the Pz-III and the T-34(43) or the T-34(85) were better than the Pz-IV, the Tiger and the KV-I were similar, as were the Panther and the T-34(85).

The German advantage was their new tactic, the Blitzkrieg... and their elite crews. Even in the first days (1941) only ONE KV, well positioned, could stop the advance of one whole Panzer Division for one or two days... until the Russian tank retreated, or finally was destroyed. (usually by a FlaK-88, the German tanks were totally useless against the KV's)

After a battle, the Russian mechanics find on one KV-I more than 230 impacts of German guns (the usual was 30-40 'hits')... the tank was totally unharmed.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on December 20, 2012, 02:04:00 AM
And respect the mechanical problems... all the new tanks had them, see the Panthers in Kursk!!!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 20, 2012, 05:25:44 AM
Yeah, the Aurvandi armored column sweeping through the jungles of Barca is really proving to be a problem. I hope they don't suffer mechanical problems when monsoon season begins.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Uzamaki on December 20, 2012, 07:13:05 AM
And respect the mechanical problems... all the new tanks had them, see the Panthers in Kursk!!!

Panzers*
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on December 20, 2012, 07:17:10 AM
Yeah, the Aurvandi armored column sweeping through the jungles of Barca is really proving to be a problem. I hope they don't suffer mechanical problems when monsoon season begins.

Yeah Aurvandil has secret factory that produces King Tigers 24/7 that are awaiting to be deployed, they just need to pass mechanical tests and they are good to go.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 20, 2012, 07:22:13 AM
Yeah Aurvandil has secret factory that produces King Tigers 24/7 that are awaiting to be deployed, they just need to pass mechanical tests and they are good to go.

SEE!?!?! THEY EVEN CONFESS TO HACKING THE GAME!!!

I knew it.

;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on December 20, 2012, 08:47:39 AM
Panzers*

No, Panthers is correct. The Panther was introduced just before that battle, but had severe mechanical problems. I do believe the Panther is part of the Panzer line of tanks.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on December 20, 2012, 12:06:58 PM
No, Panthers is correct. The Panther was introduced just before that battle, but had severe mechanical problems. I do believe the Panther is part of the Panzer line of tanks.

Yes, the Panther was the Panzer-V. Especially designed to fight the formidable T-34. Well protected, agile and armed with a 75/L70 gun... although in Kursk battle, the Germans lost more to mechanical problems than in combat!

The Aurvandilians have King Tigers?... well... we will send them ours T-34/85!!! And with a few JS-II, if they enjoy better something more 'heavy'!!!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 21, 2012, 02:49:04 PM
You have something to this effect several times now; your amazement at the 'Moot not attacking Aurvandil, at the 'Moot "hiding behind walls" all the time, and not having the honor to come out and fight Aurvandil, all the while Aurvandil has been just so "forced" to come attack the 'Moot.


....is it finally dawning on you yet that that is because Aurvandil is the aggressor in this war and the 'Moot is on defense just like we have all been saying since Day 1? Because, yeah, that's generally how things go when a stronger, militaristic realm attacks some weaker, peaceful realms: the stronger realm launches attacks against the smaller realms who hide behind walls because they are, you know, weaker... and, you know, defending.


---


In other news.... Aurvandil is back to calling Barca uncivilized... their General declaring Barca the "Farmer Republic" needing to be put in their place.

The Moot started this war, the Moot refused peace, the Moot is therefore the aggressor, they are also, however, on the back foot in the war.

And how is that calling the Barca uncivilised? They're a Republic of farmers, unless you seem to think that being a republic is uncivilised, or being a farmer is equally uncivilised, in and of itself it's not calling them uncivilised, and if you did think so then that's your own bizarre perception on things that makes you believe it is a slight on their civilisation. They are a Republic by the grace of Haktoo who does so on the provision that they farm for her, thus they are a farmer Republic... a Republic which exists so long as they farm at the whims of another. Which is nothing to do with civilisation and if you paid attention for just one second and stretched your mental wherewithal, what it actually is, is a concise repudiation of Barca's statehood and legitimacy, not their civilisation. I do tire of people constantly getting the wrong impression of things. People were upset when Allomere mentally referred to the peasants as poorly dressed, not because he sharpened his sword on their senate house stones, the greatest insult imaginable to us. You're bothered because we referred to them as farmers, a derogatory remark upon the means by which they exist at all in the service of another, and not an attack upon their level of civilisation.


Christ if we wanted to call Barca uncivilised we would outright say it, we wouldn't be coy about it. Some people are determined however to sit there and think we're calling them barbarians so they can then ostracise Aurvandil for saying such a thing.

Honestly.

Also, to Chenier.

If we were struggling to replace our losses, don't you think we would do something about it? Evidently it's not an issue as we feel free to march north every other week, if it was a genuine problem well then we'd retire the armies to their barracks until such a time as their strength is restored. You can tout how we aren't recovering as much, as if that actually matters, we have gold and soldiers lying around waiting for use if they're needed, it's just not economical or efficient to spend it all at once so the statistics chart can be our electronic penis, and Aurvandil has a mild obsession with efficiency. That, and as we face enemies innumerable, we sort of have to keep our resources for the rainy day when you inevitably form your horde again and march on us, we're not exactly idiots.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 21, 2012, 02:56:39 PM
Barca is a backwater, its hardly the essense of ostentatious wealth and culture of Dwilight, hell its nobles barely no how to talk, perhaps even language is rare there.

Asylon isnt even civilized, its a poor backwater , but at least it has its own culture.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 21, 2012, 03:03:11 PM
Barca is a backwater, its hardly the essense of ostentatious wealth and culture of Dwilight, hell its nobles barely no how to talk, perhaps even language is rare there.

Asylon isnt even civilized, its a poor backwater , but at least it has its own culture.

Well they don't exactly live in vast palaces and a grand cities, lets put it that way.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 21, 2012, 03:32:23 PM
I wouldnt roleplay Barca anything more than a passsable city of mud and farm animals, dirty, uncouth its nobles wrapped in animal furs a war torn land struggling to be a republic under the watchful eye of the Zuma. Its a frontier kingdom that never rose beyond that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 21, 2012, 04:56:18 PM
I wouldnt roleplay Barca anything more than a passsable city of mud and farm animals, dirty, uncouth its nobles wrapped in animal furs a war torn land struggling to be a republic under the watchful eye of the Zuma. Its a frontier kingdom that never rose beyond that.

Nah, I say if they haven't ever gotten a huge army, it's because they built vast golden castles from D'Haran gold. Must be splendid to see! ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 21, 2012, 05:22:04 PM
Quote
Barca is a backwater, its hardly the essense of ostentatious wealth and culture of Dwilight, hell its nobles barely no how to talk, perhaps even language is rare there.

Asylon isnt even civilized, its a poor backwater , but at least it has its own culture.

I think we can all agree that the language Barcans use is quite more understandable than that rather orthopedic and artificial slang that their southern neighbours imported to the lands they inhabit. Glaumring, have you had any comprehension issue when talking to a Barcan noble?

I wouldnt roleplay Barca anything more than a passsable city of mud and farm animals, dirty, uncouth its nobles wrapped in animal furs a war torn land struggling to be a republic under the watchful eye of the Zuma. Its a frontier kingdom that never rose beyond that.

Your talk reminds very much of our pal Noblesse. Honestly, things like that remind me of those little monkeys dancing the tune of their master's accordion. Noblesse's tune isn't so cool that we need that little dance, in fact, it's sometimes quite repetitive. What surprises me is to hear all that Zuma thing when Aurvandilian hordes adorned in feathers have been up to mischief until they were bored, with no uncomfortable visit from them in their recent visit to Barca.

I guess Glaumring has had a very close relation to Barcan people to be so judgemental, if that wouldn't the case I'd think he's just a blabbermouth. Since I don't know anything about Asylonian background, I'll remain quiet about it. And whether you don't seem to have a good opinion of Barcans, Asylonians are fine for me, I don't know why but I don't think Glaumring could be some kind of good portrait of his people. But it's nice to see two friends that understand each other so nicely.  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 21, 2012, 05:26:22 PM
I also find it amusing that Auvandil condemns Barca for dealing with the Zuma, but are all buddies with Asylon who practically sleep in bed with them and worship them as gods.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 21, 2012, 07:50:43 PM
I wouldnt roleplay Barca anything more than a passsable city of mud and farm animals, dirty, uncouth its nobles wrapped in animal furs a war torn land struggling to be a republic under the watchful eye of the Zuma. Its a frontier kingdom that never rose beyond that.

Nonsense, they're a Republic, which no doubt means their people live in poverty whilst their Senators live in luxury and finery. As is the way.

I think we can all agree that the language Barcans use is quite more understandable than that rather orthopedic and artificial slang that their southern neighbours imported to the lands they inhabit. Glaumring, have you had any comprehension issue when talking to a Barcan noble?

Your talk reminds very much of our pal Noblesse. Honestly, things like that remind me of those little monkeys dancing the tune of their master's accordion. Noblesse's tune isn't so cool that we need that little dance, in fact, it's sometimes quite repetitive. What surprises me is to hear all that Zuma thing when Aurvandilian hordes adorned in feathers have been up to mischief until they were bored, with no uncomfortable visit from them in their recent visit to Barca.

I guess Glaumring has had a very close relation to Barcan people to be so judgemental, if that wouldn't the case I'd think he's just a blabbermouth. Since I don't know anything about Asylonian background, I'll remain quiet about it. And whether you don't seem to have a good opinion of Barcans, Asylonians are fine for me, I don't know why but I don't think Glaumring could be some kind of good portrait of his people. But it's nice to see two friends that understand each other so nicely.  ::)

His talk sounds nothing like mine.

I don't go round calling the Barcan's hut dwelling savages living in cities of mud and animals, and I seem to spend my time more denying that I state such than I do actually saying anything about Barca. And I'm flattered you think Glaumring is my trained dancing monkey, I'll have to summon him in the Imperial City to see to what tune he will dance when Mendicant calls.

I also find it amusing that Auvandil condemns Barca for dealing with the Zuma, but are all buddies with Asylon who practically sleep in bed with them and worship them as gods.

We're not buddies with Asylon, we can just stand ourselves in mutual conversation without reaching for our swords. Mendicant treats them with a cool detachment as he does with most of his friendlier contacts.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 21, 2012, 08:05:46 PM
Asylon is nothing more than wretched mud huts, raining all the time, farflung, foggy, endemic poverty, uncouth, barbarians. We are nothing special, we strive for our freedoms nothing more, our kingdoms is built upon the foundations of the warrior poets and we are far removed from the ostentatious wealth of Aurvandiil. You think I was insulting Barca? Asylon is a backwater and we are proud of it. We see the wealth and culture of Corsanctum and steal bits of it, we see Aurvandiil in its glory and are awed by it, every nation in Dwilight is a glorious golden kingdom, Asylon is just a collection of rabble, we sleep in our armour, we barely wash, we wear animal skins and gold and diamonds are things we see very rarely.

Everyone in Asylon is aware of this, we are humble yet proud of our culture. I have nothing against Barca, but if you want to say the smallest, most wartorn kingdom on Dwilight from before they even arrived is some shining pearl, perhaps you should learn to roleplay what that stats tell us what your kingdom is, if Asylon was at the top of the stats page we would roleplay it as rich and powerful, its like no one would say Astrum is a backwater, it would be a lie, but Barca and Asylon clearly are and they should roleplay it and be proud of their diversity instead of pretending to be bastions of civilization and culture.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 21, 2012, 08:08:39 PM
One day Mendicant will liberate you from your misery.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 21, 2012, 08:51:20 PM
Honestly, I don't even know which background should be given to Barca in order to help me get an idea of it. We've had enough boosting from Mendicant's spokesperson to know how Aurvandilian cities are paved in gold, how coloured are the crests of their knights, how efficient are, how many times what-so-noble has sharpened his tooth-stick in the stones of foreign senate buildings (he loves that one  ::)), how their dogs defecate croissants, and quite a looooong etc. Tons of it.

Far from getting tired of roleplaying, he's taken the right to roleplay Barca. Quite widely also, with all those interesting arguments about Zumas, farmers, Zumas' farmers, rogue non-realms and such.

We've also learned some of the Asylonian background from Glaumring, of the crudeness of their weather, their warring traditions, etc. And also have freely roleplayed about Barca and its lack of culture and power... In an actually similar way to Noblesse.

It's nice that such a small realm is very often recently in words of these notorious players, but maybe it would be even nicer to get a real roleplaying background from Barca. I mean, without the cheap boasting and harshness. I guess our realm-mates don't like so much as these players to spend time here like that, but it would be cool.  :)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 21, 2012, 08:56:16 PM
I have never roleplayed Barca being uncivilized. I have said it on the forum , in order to RP with Barca one would first have to have a conversation with a Barcan. When I was king I had great relations with one of the Barcan rulers, a major fault with republics is rulers change so often and rarely do they carry over information and dealings with their peers.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 21, 2012, 09:08:04 PM
I have never roleplayed Barca being uncivilized. I have said it on the forum , in order to RP with Barca one would first have to have a conversation with a Barcan. When I was king I had great relations with one of the Barcan rulers, a major fault with republics is rulers change so often and rarely do they carry over information and dealings with their peers.

I'm sorry Glaumring, I'm getting used to read some hardly distinguishable posts here from player/character that I assumed you were doing the same. You're right, republican or democratic governments chose their rulers each X period of time so they often change. So, different members of a Senate that become rulers can steal gold from peasants, as our pal Noblesse seems to insinuate, while in a monarchy always the same king steals it. I'm sure that's the way Aurvandil is filled with gold Mendicants in every square. I hadn't think about it, but that's also a more efficient way to steal!  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on December 21, 2012, 09:20:52 PM
Nonsense, they're a Republic, which no doubt means their people live in poverty whilst their Senators live in luxury and finery. As is the way.

You are free to believe that—or anything else—as much as you want. However, I want to reinforce that you are not free to RP Barcan culture, or its peasants or nobles, being a certain way without general permission from the Barcans (or prior RP from the Barcans describing their culture in that way).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 21, 2012, 09:28:45 PM
You are free to believe that—or anything else—as much as you want. However, I want to reinforce that you are not free to RP Barcan culture, or its peasants or nobles, being a certain way without general permission from the Barcans (or prior RP from the Barcans describing their culture in that way).

+1
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 21, 2012, 09:34:06 PM
Thats true, but any look at the stats page should be a good indicator of how you rp your or others kingdoms to a degree, if Barca said their city was paved with gold and their culture superior to etc etc, we'd laugh because it doesnt reflect the history or economy of Barca
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on December 21, 2012, 09:35:29 PM
Thats true, but any look at the stats page should be a good indicator of how you rp your or others kingdoms to a degree, if Barca said their city was paved with gold and their culture superior to etc etc, we'd laugh because it doesnt reflect the history or economy of Barca

Sure. That would be dumb. RP cannot trump game mechanics in that way. Just like you can't RP that you won the recent battle where your entire army was wiped out and your capital sacked, and expect to be taken seriously.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 21, 2012, 09:46:59 PM
You are free to believe that—or anything else—as much as you want. However, I want to reinforce that you are not free to RP Barcan culture, or its peasants or nobles, being a certain way without general permission from the Barcans (or prior RP from the Barcans describing their culture in that way).

That implies that I roleplay about Barca culture at all, which I don't.

There is a world of difference between talking on the forum and roleplaying in game.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on December 21, 2012, 09:53:56 PM
That implies that I roleplay about Barca culture at all, which I don't.

There is a world of difference between talking on the forum and roleplaying in game.

That's fine, and I appreciate that.

I just know that I've heard of some people roleplaying such things, though I didn't remember who it was, and wanted to remind all here of the general rules of good RP.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 21, 2012, 09:58:03 PM
Pre-War Asylon was turning into an economic powerhouse, with thriving population and farming. Since the war if you were to visit Asylon you would see massive endemic poverty in the once glorious cities you would see ruins and you would see a nobility not much better off than the people they rule. There is no real education system, there is little safety net. Asylon has become a very dark and hopeless place in many ways. Yet, it is forged in the ideal of almost rabid independence and individualism. Not matter how bad it gets many people will always say 'At least it is not Barca' lol... I'm joking...

When Glaumring deals with Aurvandiil it is like the most uncouth, uncivilized kingdom dealing with a much richer and perhaps more enlightened kingdom. Glaumring is constantly surprised by their wealth and their differences. Its the same for all the kingdoms Asylon deals with , Terran is an old kingdom, its reflected in their architecture and their culture, yet if you travelled northward near the border with Farronite you would still probably see massive poverty and signs of the ravages of war. Farronite is probably much the same, their lands from Mech alb to Demansyk are probably wretched places to live since the wars there. 

Barca was built upon the ashes of two previous civilizations, the Ordenstaat and Silverfall? Its an ancient forested area probably littered with old buildings in the jungles, there is probably signs of poverty and different cultures of villages throughout the area, Barca probably has 2 or 3 native languages, the people are forest inclined and probably are a bit isolationist being so far from the major powers. The Barcans are an invasion outsider race, very few of them were actually born there, so they probably brought pieces of culture from their previous homeland in the eastlands, much like Asylon. Perhaps the peasantry dislike their alien rulers, or adore them? I don't know but Barca has a lot of potential to create a very interesting RP for its kingdom just because it is so messed up and diverse. You should be proud of your backwater mishmash melting pot. I am proud of Asylons diversity and backwardness, its much more fun to RP imperfection.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Eldargard on December 21, 2012, 10:15:14 PM
You are free to believe that—or anything else—as much as you want. However, I want to reinforce that you are not free to RP Barcan culture, or its peasants or nobles, being a certain way without general permission from the Barcans (or prior RP from the Barcans describing their culture in that way).

I may not be able to role play on their behalf but I can see no reason why I can not role play my perception of them I choose (As Jimbo rode into the capital city of Barca, the smell struck him as offensive. Jimbo could never live in such a place. It was all so barbaric and dreary.) This was just my perception. It was a bunch of opinions. It could very well be that a Barcan would think the same upon entering Jimbo's country.

I can also role play my character portraying them any way i chose (Dear Important Person, It surprises me that Barca continues to exist. They are nothing more than a bunch of pig farmers. The problem is that they confuse their pigs and their peasants and have a little too much fun with both! We really should wipe such filth off the map and build a civilized, functional nation in Barca's place). This is me bad mouthing Barca. It doesn't make it true.

I really think that people seem to be taking ones expressed perception or opinion as making decisions for the other party. I would like to point out that I have nothing against Barca, despite it never turned out how I had once hoped. The above are not true opinions of myself or any of my characters!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on December 21, 2012, 10:19:37 PM
I may not be able to role play on their behalf but I can see no reason why I can not role play my perception of them I choose (As Jimbo rode into the capital city of Barca, the smell struck him as offensive. Jimbo could never live in such a place. It was all so barbaric and dreary.) This was just my perception. It was a bunch of opinions. It could very well be that a Barcan would think the same upon entering Jimbo's country.

The only part of that particular example that's a bit questionable is the smell.

Quote
I can also role play my character portraying them any way i chose (Dear Important Person, It surprises me that Barca continues to exist. They are nothing more than a bunch of pig farmers. The problem is that they confuse their pigs and their peasants and have a little too much fun with both! We really should wipe such filth off the map and build a civilized, functional nation in Barca's place). This is me bad mouthing Barca. It doesn't make it true.

Certainly. You can write whatever you want in a letter. Letters are purely in-character documents written by your character, from your character's point of view. ("Did I say the Enterprise should be towing garbage? I meant that she should be hauled away as garbage!")

What I'm talking about here is narrative RP, where you are describing what your character sees around him, and you are describing it as being mud huts and sewage in the streets.

Quote
I really think that people seem to be taking ones expressed perception or opinion as making decisions for the other party.

No; what I have heard about is people actually roleplaying that this is what the Barcan peasants are like, not simply describing it as such IC to other nobles.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 21, 2012, 10:30:24 PM
Ordenstdaat and whoever may have preceded it were isolated, they tried to do everything on their own.

Barca always was backed by D'Hara and Terran. And having a solid food surplus for most of their history, they've sold incredible amounts to D'Hara over time. I don't remember us having sent actual troops there since the early days, but I do recall a few direct gold transfers, though the lump of D'Haran financing came via trade. Terran sent more actual troops, I believe.

I tend to imagine Barca as having barely tamed wild lands, with pockets of agriculture here and there, a large number of very tiny isolated towns, but pestigious public institutions in the urban cores, with most cultural products (and products in general) being imports from Terran and D'Hara.

As for agricultural products, what I'd imagine would be: game (deer, elk), boar, yak, maple syrup, honey (from D'Haran-imported bees), mushrooms, beets, and cabbage.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Eldargard on December 21, 2012, 10:51:05 PM
The only part of that particular example that's a bit questionable is the smell.

I must disagree regarding smells. I hate the spell of coffee though most everyone else I know loves it. I know people who love the smell of wet paint while I find it nauseating. My great grandmother loves the smell of ripe fertilizer fresh from the stall. It smells like crap to me!

I guess the difference is that I strive to accurately portray opinions as such. Others may have a different style. Just because a noble describes dwellings as mud huts and peasants as leaf-clad it does not necessarily have to be taken literally. Everyone sees a different picture. Even if it was taken literally the meaning of the supposed facts do not have to match what the character doing the RP suggests.

If I had been on the receiving end of such a role play I could imagining reacting in many ways. One could role play that it was a show being put on for the knight  to serve some purpose. It could be role played that the Barcans, upon seeing the knight and his retinue, found wonder at the level of decedance on display. Or, if there was no prior RP against it, it could be accepted. The peasants of Barca, for cultural reasons, like mud houses (not uncommon in history) and made their clothing from plant materials. Or perhaps they wore flowers and leaves decoratively.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 22, 2012, 12:05:54 AM
Barca was built upon the ashes of two previous civilizations, the Ordenstaat and Silverfall? Its an ancient forested area probably littered with old buildings in the jungles, there is probably signs of poverty and different cultures of villages throughout the area, Barca probably has 2 or 3 native languages, the people are forest inclined and probably are a bit isolationist being so far from the major powers. The Barcans are an invasion outsider race, very few of them were actually born there, so they probably brought pieces of culture from their previous homeland in the eastlands, much like Asylon. Perhaps the peasantry dislike their alien rulers, or adore them? I don't know but Barca has a lot of potential to create a very interesting RP for its kingdom just because it is so messed up and diverse. You should be proud of your backwater mishmash melting pot. I am proud of Asylons diversity and backwardness, its much more fun to RP imperfection.

I tend to imagine Barca as having barely tamed wild lands, with pockets of agriculture here and there, a large number of very tiny isolated towns, but pestigious public institutions in the urban cores, with most cultural products (and products in general) being imports from Terran and D'Hara.

As for agricultural products, what I'd imagine would be: game (deer, elk), boar, yak, maple syrup, honey (from D'Haran-imported bees), mushrooms, beets, and cabbage.

I've found these descriptions much more useful to have an idea of the Barcan background than some others previously seen here. At least it doesn't seem slanted, which is nice.

I agree with Unwin referring to personal opinions from certain characters who come from a rather chauvinistic and pompous background, with all the luxury and overspend of the court of an absolutist monarchy. It's not weird to hear a pejorative opinion IC from a rich noble when visiting a modest realm. The smelling... well, we all know that Aurvandilian Troop Leaders can't leave their tents before having a bath in Eau de Rochas.  ;)

There is a world of difference between talking on the forum and roleplaying in game.

You have admitted that you don't make any distinction when writing in this forum very often. In fact, I'd say doubtless that you roleplay constantly in this forum, that's something I think everyone could agree with. It's not the same that roleplaying in game indeed, as the range of your words here is probably wider, but it comes to be your character's opinion as well.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 22, 2012, 12:13:34 AM

You have admitted that you don't make any distinction when writing in this forum very often. In fact, I'd say doubtless that you roleplay constantly in this forum, that's something I think everyone could agree with. It's not the same that roleplaying in game indeed, as the range of your words here is probably wider, but it comes to be your character's opinion as well.


I make plenty of distinction between in character and out of character remarks on a forum.

My opinion on here is exactly that, my own, it isn't Mendicant's by a long shot. Half of what I talk about and comment upon Mendicant wouldn't even deign to note much less care about. That's why I go on the forums, it means I can have all the discussions, all the debates and all the petty tit for tat exchanges I can't have in  character without breaching Mendicant's established character and personality.


At best I don't make the distinction between Mendicant's opinion and my own opinion apparent enough, but you cannot say with any certainty that anything I put on this forum is straight from Mendicant unless I specicifically say it is.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 22, 2012, 12:22:33 AM
Just to clarify to you, Mendicant has referred to Barca as a "most servile people" whilst I the player have called them a third world country (As you said I never really make myself clear on the distinction sometimes)  but to answer your point, there was a time when Aurvandil believed Barca was worth saving and defending, and that was before they drew on the benevolence and protection of Haktoo, and it is then that Mendicant declared them a rogue non-state and a most servile people undeserving of the treatment of a genuine, legitimate realm.

It's true I can't state with no doubt that all you say is from Mendicant, but I think you've fed quite a bunch of times that perception. That was something that confused me sometimes, because some of your opinions were expressed in what for me was a rather crude way that I attributed to the character.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on December 22, 2012, 12:28:08 AM


I am aware of what I said, funnily enough.

And it's what I just said in my previous post, sometimes I don't make the distinction clear whether I am talking through Mendicant's mouth or my own, but that is by no means a reason to assume most of what I say is from Mendicant's mouth. Because in truth, Mendicant doesn't care about Barca, they are wholly below notice. He wouldn't waste his own time calling them uncivilised, or making scything comments about the quality of life they have in Barca. Mendicant's reply to Brackern summarises that, it took Brackern two messages to get a reply out of Mendicant and he basically said "Yeah cool, whatever".

Whereas I take the time to comment and talk about Barca where Mendicant wouldn't even bother to think about them or consider them worthy of conversation.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 22, 2012, 12:37:32 AM
Barca's context is similar to New France, imo. Dwilight was a newly discovered continent with no native kingdom, populated by colonists from the old worlds. Barca was in one of the last edges of civilization, close to the only native nation and with shaky relations with them. A lot of woods. Small cities at most. Sponsored by more stable states.

It would be reasonnable to assume that the Barcan colonists (the general population at least, if not the nobles) would have adopted some aspects of Zuma culture, be it tools, food, clothing, or folklore. As the French did in America, especially with the «courreurs des bois».

That's also part of what inspired me for agricultural products. With all these untamed woodlands, there must be a lot of game. Hunting must be important. I imagine there being a lot of white-tail deer, possibly elk. And with all these forests, there must also be a lot of mushrooms. And with these winters, why not maple sap to turn into syrup? As for livestock, I'd figure that all of  these untamed woods and Zuma lands must have a lot of predators in them. As such, it's much more likely to have large livestock, like cattle or yak, than smaller animals like sheep. I also imagine a more livestock-focused agriculture than vegetable-growing, as it needs less work to move cattle through the prairies than to plow lands that had never been cultivated. D'Haran honeybees would likely have been imported to be able to produce some sugar, and the bees would likely collect wildflower nectar from the prairies.

Now, I don't recall any actual Barcan RP about what they look like, but given all of the context, that's the general picture I give myself of Barca.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 22, 2012, 12:37:55 AM
That's something I've heard before, it's not the first time you expose that attitude of Mendicant. And it's fine, 'cause if there's nothing of worth to say, silence is much better  :P We all say too much sometimes.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on December 22, 2012, 12:47:24 AM
Thanks Chénier, copied. You've got to have an interesting cultural mixture in Québec.

And regarding to the native peoples in Dwilight, some time ago I read that according to the "Dwilightean calendar" it's been about twenty years that the first colonists arrived. Truth is even oldest realms wouldn't be but government structures placed on which should be a still strong native culture, and all that maybe mixed with some colonist civil population.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 22, 2012, 12:58:27 AM
Thanks Chénier, copied. You've got to have an interesting cultural mixture in Québec.

And regarding to the native peoples in Dwilight, some time ago I read that according to the "Dwilightean calendar" it's been about twenty years that the first colonists arrived. Truth is even oldest realms wouldn't be but government structures placed on which should be a still strong native culture, and all that maybe mixed with some colonist civil population.

Population was very low in the regions that were conquered. And with all of the starvations and invasions, I'd say that there's probably not much native population left. In some realms, at least, D'Hara especially. I'd tend to think that there isn't a single native left in D'Hara. D'Hara is some kind of colonial nation that seeks to maintain the same level of civilization as in the old world. Which it actually had managed to achieve, prior to the last great starvation. But Barca's a different story, for sure. There are a ton of neighboring regions that were never conquered by anyone, and even the most populous regions never had a really strong population. Probably a lot of metis, though. But for all of this frontier feel, the 'moot is a very proud confederation that puts a lot of importance to "civilization". Their cities would defniately have some luxurious institutions, Barca's partners would not tolerate their dignitaries working in buildings that are anything less.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 22, 2012, 02:16:34 AM
Barca's context is similar to New France, imo. Dwilight was a newly discovered continent with no native kingdom, populated by colonists from the old worlds. Barca was in one of the last edges of civilization, close to the only native nation and with shaky relations with them. A lot of woods. Small cities at most. Sponsored by more stable states.

It would be reasonnable to assume that the Barcan colonists (the general population at least, if not the nobles) would have adopted some aspects of Zuma culture, be it tools, food, clothing, or folklore. As the French did in America, especially with the «courreurs des bois».

That's also part of what inspired me for agricultural products. With all these untamed woodlands, there must be a lot of game. Hunting must be important. I imagine there being a lot of white-tail deer, possibly elk. And with all these forests, there must also be a lot of mushrooms. And with these winters, why not maple sap to turn into syrup? As for livestock, I'd figure that all of  these untamed woods and Zuma lands must have a lot of predators in them. As such, it's much more likely to have large livestock, like cattle or yak, than smaller animals like sheep. I also imagine a more livestock-focused agriculture than vegetable-growing, as it needs less work to move cattle through the prairies than to plow lands that had never been cultivated. D'Haran honeybees would likely have been imported to be able to produce some sugar, and the bees would likely collect wildflower nectar from the prairies.

Now, I don't recall any actual Barcan RP about what they look like, but given all of the context, that's the general picture I give myself of Barca.

Syrup is unlikely.

RP for southern Dwilight has always been subtropical; Madina Gardens, Palm Seas, etc.

Much more likely to be something like India in terms of flora and fauna. Jungles, not woodlands.

But culturewise about the diversity and settlement patterns, yeah, Quebec may be a good comparison. I also see it as Numenor in LOTR. The locals worship the Shadow (Zuma), but the tall men from over the seas have come and built settlements over them, etc, etc.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on December 22, 2012, 02:30:04 AM
When determining the culture of the region, don't forget to account for the gold and food ratings of the regions. It seems highly unlikely that a region full of naked peasants living in mud huts could generate the same gold and food numbers as the supposedly more affluent and cultured areas around. All that gold and food has to come from somewhere.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on December 22, 2012, 03:07:21 AM
RP for southern Dwilight has always been subtropical; Madina Gardens, Palm Seas, etc.

Much more likely to be something like India in terms of flora and fauna. Jungles, not woodlands.

If Terran/D'Hara are Mediterranean and Madina is Carribean, then that makes Barca something like... well, something like Kentucky, really. I hear there are people who can tell us what's that like.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 22, 2012, 03:15:28 AM
Syrup is unlikely.

RP for southern Dwilight has always been subtropical; Madina Gardens, Palm Seas, etc.

Much more likely to be something like India in terms of flora and fauna. Jungles, not woodlands.

But culturewise about the diversity and settlement patterns, yeah, Quebec may be a good comparison. I also see it as Numenor in LOTR. The locals worship the Shadow (Zuma), but the tall men from over the seas have come and built settlements over them, etc, etc.

Latitude is not the sole factor in determining climate. Take Québec City's latitude, and then check for a city with the same latitude in France, and you'll have a very different climate.

Even the weather map places Barca is a completely different weather zone than D'Hara, Terran, Madina, Luria Vesperi, and Fissoa. http://wiki.battlemaster.org/images/Westcontinentweatherareht2.jpg (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/images/Westcontinentweatherareht2.jpg)

Sure, despite it being a continent, travel times place them actually very close to each other and make such climate differences odd (mind you, that it only takes a week by boat to go from one extremety to the other also makes it odd).

Personally, I imagine Barca as being on some kind of horst, with a coldstream along the western coast, and its rurals being on something akin to the Russian plains. I tend to imagine it being colder than on the inner coast. Might not match with existing RP, though. Then again, I can't imagine Terran's northern woods being the same as Sherwood. In any case, I wouldn't extend any description of climate from Madina, Terran, or D'Hara to Barca just because of latitude.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 22, 2012, 07:30:13 AM
If Terran/D'Hara are Mediterranean and Madina is Carribean, then that makes Barca something like... well, something like Kentucky, really. I hear there are people who can tell us what's that like.

The only snow that falls in Terran is in the Phantarian forest in the north, and even then it's not deep. We've always RPed Odona as basically a jungle; Thysan too.

Evanburg and the west might be cooler... but still not THAT much cooler. I'm not sure how the Orvandeaux RP their climate. I hope subtropical. :/

Barca's furthest west might get some snow in winter, but I have a hard time imaging maple trees and such in Rettlewood.

Also, Terran's players, when they are RPing seasons, tend to refer to winter as monsoon season. We're really into this whole tropical thing. We dig the palm trees and stuff.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on December 22, 2012, 10:17:02 AM

Also, Terran's players, when they are RPing seasons, tend to refer to winter as monsoon season. We're really into this whole tropical thing. We dig the palm trees and stuff.

Madina always used to do that, fissoa still does it.

I thought aurvendil didn't really rp seasons at all.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 22, 2012, 02:20:02 PM
The only snow that falls in Terran is in the Phantarian forest in the north, and even then it's not deep. We've always RPed Odona as basically a jungle; Thysan too.

Evanburg and the west might be cooler... but still not THAT much cooler. I'm not sure how the Orvandeaux RP their climate. I hope subtropical. :/

Barca's furthest west might get some snow in winter, but I have a hard time imaging maple trees and such in Rettlewood.

Also, Terran's players, when they are RPing seasons, tend to refer to winter as monsoon season. We're really into this whole tropical thing. We dig the palm trees and stuff.

There are no maples in India, but there are some in indochina, which is right next to it. In northern Africa as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_genus_Acer.png

I have a hard time imagining palm trees in Barca, because that's not actually what's on the map. All of the drawn palm trees are on the east continent. Further, it's called "RettleWOOD" and "TwainWOOD". I never hear people refer to jungles as "the woods". There's also the climate zones, Barca clearly being out of the mediteranean climate zone.

It's easy to picture palm trees on Terran's coast, in Old Maroccidens. But I have a hard time imagining Barca having the same climate as Terran. The terrain is quite different. You are stretched along the eastern coast, with a major river going through you and a great lake on one border. Proximity to the badlands and mountains. Heck, even the Volcano seems to be sending its junk your way.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on December 22, 2012, 02:44:43 PM
not all forests in sub or tropical lands are jungles, jungles are just tightly grown old forests that are almost impenetrable.
That still doesn;t change the fact that barca is subtropical.

Also i always thought about the water streams of the inner sea.
If you look at the map it is imaginable that the hot water streams flow close to the surfice upwards along the east inner sea up north where the water cools down and flows back down the west side of the inner sea.
That would mean the east is warmer then the west.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 22, 2012, 03:07:20 PM
On the inner sea, I'd say there are warm currents along the western coast and cold currents along the eastern coast, hence why the climate is dryer in the east and why all the deserts are there.

Given the two deserts, I'd say Chesney is on the equatorial line.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on December 22, 2012, 04:57:28 PM
There are no maples in India, but there are some in indochina, which is right next to it. In northern Africa as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_genus_Acer.png

I have a hard time imagining palm trees in Barca, because that's not actually what's on the map. All of the drawn palm trees are on the east continent. Further, it's called "RettleWOOD" and "TwainWOOD". I never hear people refer to jungles as "the woods". There's also the climate zones, Barca clearly being out of the mediteranean climate zone.

It's easy to picture palm trees on Terran's coast, in Old Maroccidens. But I have a hard time imagining Barca having the same climate as Terran. The terrain is quite different. You are stretched along the eastern coast, with a major river going through you and a great lake on one border. Proximity to the badlands and mountains. Heck, even the Volcano seems to be sending its junk your way.

Oh, yeah– Barca probably isn't very palm-tree-ish. I would image it far less sandy than that. Again, methinks India is probably a good analog for Barca.

And good find on the maples. Can those maples actually be tapped for syrup?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on December 22, 2012, 05:07:10 PM
Barca is probably like California redwood... Think Endor
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on December 22, 2012, 07:40:14 PM
Oh, yeah– Barca probably isn't very palm-tree-ish. I would image it far less sandy than that. Again, methinks India is probably a good analog for Barca.

And good find on the maples. Can those maples actually be tapped for syrup?

Various maples can be tapped. The most common one is the sugar maple (acer saccharum), but I believe the red maple and black maple are tapped as well. Sugar contents aren't as high, however, and I would assume that taste may also be influenced. It does still allow for some maple syrup to be produced in some regions of Canada where the sugar maple isn't dominant or present.

The fact that the sugar maple is mostly in eastern canada doesn't mean it couldn't have evolved elsewhere as well. Norvegian maples are pretty invasive here, and I'm sure that sugar maples could also thrive in other parts of the world.

However, the sap is only harvested at spring, when the days are warm enough and the nights cool enough. After a while, it is no longer harvested because it acquires a "bud" taste. It requires a winter, as far as I know.

So perhaps no maple syrup from Barca.

A Dwilight climate map would be interesting to draw. We've got the weather areas as a base already, could be interesting to pursue this discussion into fleshing out what the climate is like in all corners of Dwilight. We could even map the water streams.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on December 22, 2012, 10:46:22 PM
However, the sap is only harvested at spring, when the days are warm enough and the nights cool enough. After a while, it is no longer harvested because it acquires a "bud" taste. It requires a winter, as far as I know.

So perhaps no maple syrup from Barca.

More precisely, it can only be tapped in the weeks where the temperature is below freezing at night and above in the day. The freeze "resets" the process every day ensuring you have clear sap. There's plenty of maples in Germany, but no syrup.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 04, 2013, 07:50:24 AM
HERESY IN AURVANDIL!

Time to fund the 'moot, northerners! We developed quite a specialty in dealing with usurpers. And it looks to us as if Allison is trying to usurp the name and legitimacy of your church. :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Eldargard on January 04, 2013, 07:52:27 AM
There's plenty of maples in Germany, but no syrup.

Sure there is! Imported Canadian Syrup! Boy am I glad to have found it too. I was dreading years of jam covered pancakes during my stay....
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on January 04, 2013, 08:01:01 AM
I could be wrong i was out of action about a week but i don't think Mendicant approve of that action. We will see...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Meneldur on January 04, 2013, 12:02:22 PM
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the new religion. I can't imagine many in Aurvanil would be interested in joining, and with the present hostilities I doubt an Aurvandil-based religion will be able to spread outside Aurvandil and Falkirk.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 04, 2013, 12:18:36 PM
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the new religion. I can't imagine many in Aurvanil would be interested in joining, and with the present hostilities I doubt an Aurvandil-based religion will be able to spread outside Aurvandil and Falkirk.

Why would it spread to Falkirk at all? That would almost defeat it's point.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Meneldur on January 04, 2013, 12:51:18 PM
Why would it spread to Falkirk at all? That would almost defeat it's point.

I just meant that Falkirk is one of the few realms on good enough terms with Aurvandil not to denounce a religion emerging out of Aurvandil at first sight.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Shizzle on January 04, 2013, 01:04:03 PM
Why would it spread to Falkirk at all? That would almost defeat it's point.

So why would Aurvandil would want a religion, apart from the OOC gains?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on January 04, 2013, 02:43:48 PM
What OOC gains are there to having a religion?   


Allison came to Aurvandil because she could found a new church.   It will be small for a while, but I have high hopes for it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 04, 2013, 03:11:35 PM
You assume Aurvandil wants anything from a religion at all.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on January 04, 2013, 03:15:39 PM
This is good for Dwilight.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 04, 2013, 03:21:21 PM
How optimistic of you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on January 04, 2013, 04:08:13 PM
Well I prefer a melting pot to a hegemony...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on January 04, 2013, 04:41:38 PM
There are OOC gains to religions– like an ability to manipulate your peasants, and prevent their manipulation by other religions.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lorgan on January 04, 2013, 04:47:15 PM
There are OOC gains to religions– like an ability to manipulate your peasants, and prevent their manipulation by other religions.

What's OOC about that?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 04, 2013, 05:11:56 PM
This is good for Dwilight.

Indeed. This will make getting support against Aurvandil even easier.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on January 04, 2013, 05:17:32 PM
Indeed. This will make getting support against Aurvandil even easier.

Not that your still relevant...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on January 04, 2013, 06:13:22 PM
So why would Aurvandil would want a religion, apart from the OOC gains?

Because it gets Allison to be on their side?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on January 04, 2013, 06:36:47 PM
isn't the entire SA bloc already against Aurvandil?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on January 04, 2013, 06:58:45 PM
isn't the entire SA bloc already against Aurvandil?

lol, um, yes and no.

They are against in principle, but their commitment to support is somewhat limited.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 04, 2013, 07:09:28 PM
lol, um, yes and no.

They are against in principle, but their commitment to support is somewhat limited.

Indeed, and a crusade hasn't been called.

If the north was actually funding the 'moot, this war would be a total piece of cake.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on January 04, 2013, 08:05:11 PM
The north has very limited options for waging war. About all we can do is offer food/gold. Or maybe monster hunting support. Unless Terran's capital gets attacked. It's just too far.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 04, 2013, 08:30:39 PM
Because it gets Allison to be on their side?

I thought the spreading of religion was forbidden in Aurvandil, I don't know if it was because it's another kind of power that in a certain moment could mean some rivalry for the monarchic regime or if there's another reason. However, if they're allowing it to happen I guess is somehow because of the reason VonGenf says.

Maybe not to have Allison within their ranks, she has probed to be a quite ambitious character, which in a realm with such strong and restricted hierarchy seemed to have not room. But as Dustole said, she was well accompanied in number of acolytes and funds, and whether Aurvandil is strong, it's never so bad to have a bunch of new nobles with some experience and filled pockets.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on January 04, 2013, 08:47:44 PM
Allison didn't take that many people with her. 5 or 6, tops. I'm waiting until the day she leads a rebellion against Mendicant. :p
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 04, 2013, 08:53:38 PM
Oh, maybe she exaggerated a little bi then. But even so, it's a candy everyone would appreciate, and...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 04, 2013, 09:08:13 PM
The north has very limited options for waging war. About all we can do is offer food/gold. Or maybe monster hunting support. Unless Terran's capital gets attacked. It's just too far.

Gold... and food... and LOTS of it.

You talk as if gold and food were worthless... We don't care about your armies that cost a fortune to sail to our lands and then desert as soon as they arrive. Instead of spending all that gold on worthless armies, give them to us, and we'll recruit large armies ourselves to deal with the heretics.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on January 04, 2013, 09:31:09 PM
It may be that a crusade could be called.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on January 04, 2013, 09:46:31 PM
Of course gold and food would be useful. But most people would rather march 80 soldiers down than send 300 gold every other week. Marching troops is exciting. Sending gold is boring. And giving it away? Meh... there's no excitement for most people in bankrolling someone else's war.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Hroppa on January 04, 2013, 10:06:59 PM
Yeah, not to mention the prestige for our characters.

But Chenier, be fair, Astrum's army has been sitting around down South for weeks and weeks waiting for some Moot forces to turn up. It's not the Astrocracies that've failed to put troops in the field.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 04, 2013, 11:05:44 PM
Yeah, not to mention the prestige for our characters.

But Chenier, be fair, Astrum's army has been sitting around down South for weeks and weeks waiting for some Moot forces to turn up. It's not the Astrocracies that've failed to put troops in the field.
Weeks and weeks, I am not so sure about that though I know that there are some noble's of Astrum a region away from where everyone else is gathered strangely enough. Also, if I can work away at that D'haran pride, Morek may be joining the war again and in big numbers.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on January 04, 2013, 11:35:51 PM
Bear in mind that I am not dumb enough to take all of my followers out of Astrum when I realized they were going to try and refound a realm.  How else am I going to get a religious foot hold in my old realm?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on January 04, 2013, 11:59:56 PM
Quite simply, you won't.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 05, 2013, 12:02:03 AM
Quite simply, you won't.
It may be a Republic, but SA is keeping a firm grasp on the realm, making sure that it stays only SA and basically theocratic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on January 05, 2013, 12:11:28 AM
Quite simply, you won't.


Meh... time will tell.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 05, 2013, 12:52:22 AM
Of course gold and food would be useful. But most people would rather march 80 soldiers down than send 300 gold every other week. Marching troops is exciting. Sending gold is boring. And giving it away? Meh... there's no excitement for most people in bankrolling someone else's war.

Do both?

If you can send troops and fight, sure, totally do it. However, last time everyone came, distance from the realm seemed to K.O. your armies.

You did send small forces to good effect, though.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on January 05, 2013, 01:05:56 AM
Only few people in Aurvandil knew about decision to make new religion. I wonder how many times did old Allison spread her legs for Mendicant for him to agree on this xD
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 05, 2013, 01:35:46 AM
Only few people in Aurvandil knew about decision to make new religion. I wonder how many times did old Allison spread her legs for Mendicant for him to agree on this xD

51 years old Allison and about 30 years old Mendicant? Ugh... nice show...  :o  I think gold and crew is enough in this case. Or maybe also some information and/or the wish to piss off the Astroists by giving home a self-declared renegade who wanted to create a schism in the SA.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on January 05, 2013, 04:40:09 AM
51 years old Allison and about 30 years old Mendicant? Ugh... nice show...  :o  I think gold and crew is enough in this case. Or maybe also some information and/or the wish to piss off the Astroists by giving home a self-declared renegade who wanted to create a schism in the SA.

Not to mention the hole in her head... Though maybe Mendicant has a perversion in that way ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 05, 2013, 03:34:11 PM
Ha, you don't even want to know what's been going on lately.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on January 05, 2013, 04:01:03 PM
I was amazed when I heard about the new religion... in Aurvandil...  :o??
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 05, 2013, 04:05:44 PM
We hate religion, we despise organised religion, and we outright loathe foreign superstition and now we have all three.

"This can only end well"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on January 05, 2013, 05:10:52 PM
Ha, you don't even want to know what's been going on lately.

It seems 2013 will be the year of Aurvandil ! =) , some big changes and lots of exciting war campaigns!.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on January 05, 2013, 08:01:48 PM
We hate religion, we despise organised religion, and we outright loathe foreign superstition and now we have all three.

"This can only end well"

Too bad its not SMA to hold that attitude and your kingdom has finally decided to join the rest of Dwilight in actually playing the game the way Tom intended it. No one cares if you hate religion in RL and you are a rabid internet Atheist... In BM you love religion, no buts ifs or ands about it. Its not like following an IG religion will somehow sully your OOG holy atheism.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 05, 2013, 10:10:45 PM
Too bad its not SMA to hold that attitude and your kingdom has finally decided to join the rest of Dwilight in actually playing the game the way Tom intended it. No one cares if you hate religion in RL and you are a rabid internet Atheist... In BM you love religion, no buts ifs or ands about it. Its not like following an IG religion will somehow sully your OOG holy atheism.
He never said he was atheist and Aurvandil's dislike of religion has nothing to do with that based on what they have stated. Their dislike of religion is it taking their nobles focus away from the realm.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on January 05, 2013, 10:35:49 PM
Most Aurvandilians are pagans. Pagan worship ftw  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 05, 2013, 10:37:06 PM
It seems 2013 will be the year of Aurvandil ! =) , some big changes and lots of exciting war campaigns!.

Yay! Did you finally noticed you've got more than 50 players among your ranks? Happy New Year!  :)

Regarding the religious matter, maybe Arvandilians receive financial support from Allison & friends in exchange of the promise of a satellite realm somewhere in what today are 'Moot regions. It's a raisonable symbiosis, and it's been already seen.

But all this time of silent... Indeed plagues and fire are being plotted in Candiels!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on January 06, 2013, 12:10:05 AM
Pagan religions are uncivilized, Aurvandiil is not uncivilized.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 06, 2013, 12:16:06 AM
Pagan religions are uncivilized, Aurvandiil is not uncivilized.
Pagan religions are unorganized, that's its.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on January 06, 2013, 12:51:58 AM
Pagan religions are unorganized, that's its.

Order is a sign of civilization!   It is a nobles duty to organize that which surrounds him, and give it meaningful form!

No?

No. . probably not.   Just wait, I'm sure Mendicant will soon be worshiped as a deity king, to affirm his right to govern all of Dwilight :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 06, 2013, 01:20:11 AM
Order is a sign of civilization!   It is a nobles duty to organize that which surrounds him, and give it meaningful form!

No?

No. . probably not.   Just wait, I'm sure Mendicant will soon be worshiped as a deity king, to affirm his right to govern all of Dwilight :P
Order and orginization are not the same, and though that argument could maybe be used, it can also be said that they could claim there faith believes in a handful of things that basically say helping your realm is important, thus not becoming a priest for that faith is valid.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on January 06, 2013, 06:55:07 AM
Paganism has no priests nor temples. Its a mishmash of superstition and nonsense. A civilized nation would not deal in the religion of the 'peasants' a civilized kingdom would bind the peasants under the faith of the nobles. So basically Aurvandiilians worship kitchen gods and straw effigies of birds and frogs.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on January 06, 2013, 02:19:13 PM
I disagree. Pagans certainly had their 'priests', in the sense that there were people who claimed to be mediums of higher powers, or prophets, or seers. They also had their places of worship, to an extent. You have to remove your idea that the general features of organized religions - constructed temples, hierarchies, and codified beliefs - are the only features that constitute a religion.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on January 06, 2013, 03:17:54 PM
Feylonis, I believe Glaumring is speaking from the perspective of Battlemaster. In which case he would indeed be correct.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on January 06, 2013, 03:32:37 PM
I disagree. Pagans certainly had their 'priests', in the sense that there were people who claimed to be mediums of higher powers, or prophets, or seers. They also had their places of worship, to an extent. You have to remove your idea that the general features of organized religions - constructed temples, hierarchies, and codified beliefs - are the only features that constitute a religion.

Please do not ever make the mistake of thinking that "pagan" in BM means either what it has come to mean in RL, or what it used to mean in RL.

"Pagan" means, specifically and exactly, any and all religion that does not have a game-mechanic presence on the continent. Thus, by definition, no priests, no temples, no prophets, etc.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on January 06, 2013, 06:35:55 PM
And herein lies the problem people insist on playing BM with their RL beliefs and warp the rules to reflect that. No one plays RISK with such aspiration or a D&D campaign, you follow the rules of the game you play no ifs about it.

And yes everything I say is in regards to the BM world and rules. I could care less about real world religion or your internet philosophies..  I follow the flying fish god for he is the greatest and all powerful.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 06, 2013, 11:02:20 PM
But all this time of silent... Indeed plagues and fire are being plotted in Candiels!

When our foes don't make fun for us, we make our own fun.

We've been left with pretty much nothing to do but to scheme, so that's what we've been doing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 06, 2013, 11:12:47 PM
Too bad its not SMA to hold that attitude and your kingdom has finally decided to join the rest of Dwilight in actually playing the game the way Tom intended it. No one cares if you hate religion in RL and you are a rabid internet Atheist... In BM you love religion, no buts ifs or ands about it. Its not like following an IG religion will somehow sully your OOG holy atheism.

Our In Game attitude has nothing to do with our Out of Game attitude towards religion, not that there is even one unified religious stance amongst the key players of Aurvandil. Were I one to be insulted, I would be that you consider me so shallow as to use Battlemaster as an outlet for some sort of rampant boner for Atheism, which I don't even consider myself anyway. It has also been established what Aurvandil believes in, and that is Monarchism, certain branches of Philosophy and Chivalry. Our disdain for religion In Game was born from the In Game religions and the way they acted, and we decided not to conform to such genericism, which has been a source of much roleplay and In Character happenings, so it's been quite successful and not just some passive aggressive contrarianism.

And no, Aurvandil hasn't joined the rest of Dwilight to play the game "As Tom intended", that would just be predictable. We're just in the opening moves of our plans.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on January 07, 2013, 12:17:54 AM
you consider me so shallow as to use Battlemaster as an outlet for some sort of rampant boner for Atheism

You use BM as an outlet for all your bizarre nihilistic OOC political beliefs, I think it stands to reason to assume the same for your religious ones.

And no, Aurvandil hasn't joined the rest of Dwilight to play the game "As Tom intended"

You mean, like, SMA? Yeah, following the rules sure is predictable.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 07, 2013, 12:19:40 AM
You use BM as an outlet for all your bizarre nihilistic OOC political beliefs, I think it stands to reason to assume the same for your religious ones.

Well no, that's just something you reckon to be true because "Sure why not".


You mean, like, SMA? Yeah, following the rules sure is predictable. Wouldn't want to, you know, follow the big bold yellow words that display when you sign up for the continent.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Serious_Medieval_Atmosphere

Just in case you've forgotten what the SMA actually is.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on January 07, 2013, 12:28:40 AM
Well no, that's just something you reckon to be true because "Sure why not".

See:

(blah blah blah elections suck)
And you would suggest we reduce such an incredibly important position to elections? To allow the possibility that some one with no greater intention than to advance their own career and agenda would be able to hold such a position? Madness. The Monarch is more than a simple ruler, he is the essence of everything that is his realm and people. A Monarch is therefore far more important than any elected official, than any politician and any ruler such as a Prime Minister.

And that is why he is not elected, but consented to. The people do not choose their Monarch through elections, but they consent to whether or not that Monarch indeed exemplifies all of the above and more. Consent is far more powerful than any vote, it is far more important than popularity and it is far more representative than any electoral process. The people consent to their Monarch, or they do not, and that ultimately decides on whether or not a Monarch is worthy of ruling them.

Pages ~57 through like ~64 or something of this thread are chock full of this crap - literal OOC argumentation about why democracies aren't representative and other such 1st year poli sci shenanigans. It's pretty clear that BM is your outlet for all this horse!@#$.

But sure I'm just saying all of this stuff because of confirmation bias.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on January 07, 2013, 12:28:59 AM
Religion and war are in the game and it does make your realm better to have an army of priests doing your bidding the same as soldiers. Nothing is stopping the Astroists from conducting mass auto-de fes in your lands you have nothing to fight back against the religions of Dwilight decimating your lands with our preaching.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 07, 2013, 12:35:01 AM
See:

Pages ~57 through like ~64 or something of this thread are chock full of this crap - literal OOC argumentation about why democracies aren't representative and other such 1st year poli sci shenanigans. It's pretty clear that BM is your outlet for all this horse!@#$.

But sure I'm just saying all of this stuff because of confirmation bias.

If you'll note, I took no part in that debate, save to point out that my In Game Roleplayed government was not reflective of my OOC attitudes and beliefs, as a defence to the accusation that it was. So you have just assumed something to be true because you reckon it could be, on the basis of sure why not.

So you know, no.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 07, 2013, 12:38:00 AM
Religion and war are in the game and it does make your realm better to have an army of priests doing your bidding the same as soldiers. Nothing is stopping the Astroists from conducting mass auto-de fes in your lands you have nothing to fight back against the religions of Dwilight decimating your lands with our preaching.

Aside from the fact we'd arrest them the moment they arrived, we're pretty good at border control, as we've shown on multiple occasions when priests have tried to do exactly that. Oh, and the indigenous religions, and the foray of foreign religions that crept into our realm that ensures no one has a direct majority and to gain one would require sufficient time for us to deal with a priest.

It's not like we haven't considered such a situation and considered what we would do to when it occurs, and it's not like we haven't handled such situations in the past.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on January 07, 2013, 12:42:37 AM
In response to:

I'm not going to make a detailed reply to Mendicant's points.

Not I say Mendicant, not noblessechevalier. I have a hard time believing that a modern human being actually believes that the argument he is made is logically consistent.

You don't actually think what you're saying makes sense and is true, do you? Like, it makes sense maybe from a late-Medieval perspective that basically ignored most of what we today recognize as fundamental human freedoms, and basic problems of political economy... but I get the impression you think what your saying is true on an OOC level. And that... really shocks me.

You said:

Yes, well you give the impression you believe things such as elections truly safeguard the freedoms and civil liberties of the people, and in turn represents the people, which in this day and age for anyone to still believe such nonsense is shocking, as you would put it.

Slapping an addendum saying "oh hey btw I was just kidding all along lol" doesn't suddenly revoke everything you said, when you explicitly stated, right there, that holding democratic political views OOC in the modern age is shocking. Please don't try to BS me when it takes two clicks to prove otherwise.

I've been immature enough in digging into this flame war already so I'm gonna quit now. Have the last word if you'd like.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 07, 2013, 12:50:17 AM
In response to:

You said:

Slapping an addendum saying "oh hey btw I was just kidding all along lol" doesn't suddenly revoke everything you said, when you explicitly stated, right there, that holding democratic political views OOC in the modern age is shocking. Please don't try to BS me when it takes two clicks to prove otherwise.

I've been immature enough in digging into this flame war already so I'm gonna quit now. Have the last word if you'd like.

Oh that's all very darling and such, but I made one statement doubting the representative powers of an election and you go "Look, the Aurvandil government is an allegory for his bizarre OOC political beliefs!" so as I said, you've just assumed something to be true on next to no basis whatsoever, and equally assumed you could make it stick based on a single sentence I posted in which I (My OOC person and not the IG character of Mendicant) doubted modern elections, but in no way connected that on an OOC level to the IG government, ideology or philosophy of Aurvandil. In fact Aurvandil doesn't doubt elections at all, they just believe everyone else to be doing it wrong. So I fail to see how you've come to the conclusion that the Aurvandil system is representative of my own personal beliefs on anything other than the basis of "Yeah I reckon, 'cause why not".

A flame war? I would have called it a debate because that's what it is, not a petty attempt to flame each other, but whatever, if you don't want to held accountable for your accusations then don't make them in the first place.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 07, 2013, 12:53:06 AM
Yeah I would call that a flame war. Maybe a bit of an aggressive debate but it was overall pretty civil which is the opposite of a flame war.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on January 07, 2013, 01:00:31 AM
Oh that's all very darling and such, but I made one statement doubting the representative powers of an election and you go "Look, the Aurvandil government is an allegory for his bizarre OOC political beliefs!" so as I said, you've just assumed something to be true on next to no basis whatsoever, and equally assumed you could make it stick based on a single sentence I posted in which I (My OOC person and not the IG character of Mendicant) doubted modern elections, but in no way connected that on an OOC level to the IG government, ideology or philosophy of Aurvandil. In fact Aurvandil doesn't doubt elections at all, they just believe everyone else to be doing it wrong. So I fail to see how you've come to the conclusion that the Aurvandil system is representative of my own personal beliefs on anything other than the basis of "Yeah I reckon, 'cause why not".

A flame war? I would have called it a debate because that's what it is, not a petty attempt to flame each other, but whatever, if you don't want to held accountable for your accusations then don't make them in the first place.

You know... I think your being trolled by Norrel
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Arundel on January 07, 2013, 03:08:57 AM
.... so as I said, you've just assumed something to be true on next to no basis whatsoever....

Norrel provided you with two quotes of yours, in which the first you outright declared that there are no elections for the ruler's position, while the second highlighted a fervent OOC perspective that granted the first an obvious source of creation. Rebutting with the same statement "you reckon it could be, on the basis of sure why not" does absolutely nothing to disprove Norrel's claims or the things you've said. Stating that they're not true because they're assumptions is an equally crap argument.

Moreover, stating "Aurvandil doesn't doubt elections at all" is utterly pointless and a petty deviation from the primary point. Norrel isn't arguing whether or not Aurvandil "doubts" elections: in all fairness, no one cares. Norrel is arguing that you're possibly tying passionate OOC beliefs to your character and realm, in a fashion that many people obviously disapprove of.

Perhaps providing better arguments than "No, you're wrong, hence you're assuming things and doing it because why not" or "Those two concrete examples aren't proof, hence they're assumptions and obviously stated because why not" will go far as to shed a clearer light on the differences between you, Mendicant, and latter's decisions.

Edit: clearer for better, and to remove accusations of violations of the game rules, as they were not intended in that fashion.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on January 07, 2013, 03:13:08 AM
Norrel is arguing that you're tying passionate OOC beliefs to your character and realm, and thus bending the game's rules in a fashion that many people obviously disapprove of.

Please avoid accusations of violations of the game rules. If you have such accusations, the Magistrates can hear them.

Let's get back on topic, shall we?

So... all's quiet on the southern front...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 07, 2013, 04:08:01 AM
Let's get back on topic, shall we?

So... all's quiet on the southern front...
Aurvandil is fixing up their realm or something and we are letting them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on January 07, 2013, 09:01:37 AM
Aurvandil is fixing up their realm or something and we are letting them.

While Fissoa keeps pounding at the falkirians.
Perhaps there is an opening in this war.

Ps what IS the moot doing in this war actually?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 07, 2013, 12:50:58 PM
Well, we crushed the squatters and D'Hara regained all of its lost lands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on January 07, 2013, 01:24:07 PM
Well, we crushed the squatters

No you didn't, the squatters just moved.
but yes you regained your lands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on January 07, 2013, 02:21:45 PM
Next step : write up a peace treaty!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on January 07, 2013, 07:40:24 PM
Wasn't Pasily originally lost to starvation, not Aurvandil?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 07, 2013, 07:59:58 PM
Wasn't Pasily originally lost to starvation, not Aurvandil?

Which realm is that?  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on January 07, 2013, 08:20:57 PM
Um, Pasily is the abyssal realm that shall one day rise from the ocean depths and rain terror upon all.

But that was a typo, I actually meant Paisly, the region, yeah...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 07, 2013, 10:21:41 PM
- "Wasn't Paisly originally lost to Starvation, not Aurvandil?"

- "Which realm is that?"

... Bah, forget it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 07, 2013, 11:45:38 PM
Wasn't Pasily originally lost to starvation, not Aurvandil?
Yes
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 07, 2013, 11:46:55 PM
No you didn't, the squatters just moved.
but yes you regained your lands.
Do you think they left for no reason? They left because they were crushed.  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 07, 2013, 11:57:56 PM
Do you think they left for no reason? They left because they were crushed.  ;D

LIKE THE MISERABLE INSECTS THEY WERE.

 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on January 08, 2013, 12:02:57 AM
Yeah, no kiding. You showed those three nobles who's boss!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 08, 2013, 01:08:58 AM
Yeah, no kiding. You showed those three nobles who's boss!

Hell yea!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 08, 2013, 01:20:03 AM
Yeah, no kiding. You showed those three nobles who's boss!
Woah! Lets not understate this, it was at least 6, maybe 7 nobles and all their militia.  ;)
But yeah, we crushed them because they were small not because we are amazing, which is also why I said the northerners haven't done anything important because AFAIK, that's the only thing they have actually aided with.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Eldargard on January 08, 2013, 05:40:40 AM
What about the series og region revolts caused by the war decelerations? It seems like that was quite helpful in providing a bit of a breather.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 08, 2013, 06:25:06 AM
What about the series og region revolts caused by the war decelerations? It seems like that was quite helpful in providing a bit of a breather.
That was when we crushed Provincia. If you are talking about now, Aurvandil is doing whatever they feel like right now while we sit around too scared to attack.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on January 15, 2013, 09:12:28 PM
Some big events happened down the South, any thoughts, opinions?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on January 15, 2013, 09:17:36 PM
Some big events happened down the South, any thoughts, opinions?

Havn't been able to get anything done today due to ALL THE CRAP!

Anyway, check the last few pages of the Lurian thread for the play by play.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 15, 2013, 11:36:42 PM
That was when we crushed Provincia. If you are talking about now, Aurvandil is doing whatever they feel like right now while we sit around too scared to attack.

Yes, well I find there is more than one way to convince the Moot that attacking Aurvandil is a good idea. It's certainly more convenient than marching north, only to find that Terran and D'Hara won't leave their walls end up wandering around looting and then returning home disappointed.

So lets see how well the Moot can fight when they're the aggressors attacking a foe on their own territory. Should be fun.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 16, 2013, 03:07:09 AM
Yes, well I find there is more than one way to convince the Moot that attacking Aurvandil is a good idea. It's certainly more convenient than marching north, only to find that Terran and D'Hara won't leave their walls end up wandering around looting and then returning home disappointed.

So lets see how well the Moot can fight when they're the aggressors attacking a foe on their own territory. Should be fun.
It will be quite interesting to see, though always the biggest obstacle is the military leaders coordinating.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on January 18, 2013, 08:47:17 AM
So lets see how well the Moot can fight when they're the aggressors attacking a foe on their own territory. Should be fun.
I must see that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 19, 2013, 01:12:39 AM
I must see that.
This just shows !@#$ty Barca is as an ally. You want to see it instead of take part and you are Barca's general.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on January 19, 2013, 02:11:18 PM
The meaning of it, it has never happened before.

And at least this '!@#$ty' ally doesn't allow their lands to be consumed by Aurvandil. Then you would have a much bigger problem.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 19, 2013, 02:51:17 PM
The meaning of it, it has never happened before.

And at least this '!@#$ty' ally doesn't allow their lands to be consumed by Aurvandil. Then you would have a much bigger problem.

If Aurvandil had a mind to take your lands you wouldn't have a realm right now. You only haven't had your lands taken because we chose not to take them, aside from Gallaecia, Kydonia and Celtiberia (I don't see you retaking them). You can't really slag off D'Hara and Terran for having lost land just because you've had it easy and your enemy doesn't want to take your lands. At least they reconquered their lost territory from us.

Barca has no place acting smug because you're relatively intact when it's Terran and D'Hara who have actually been fighting this war on the front lines with all the risks and consequences that have come with it.

If you hadn't noticed, Aurvandil doesn't even bother to fight Barca unless you make a foray into our lands, as your realm and it's regions are detritus to us.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 19, 2013, 03:24:09 PM
If Aurvandil had a mind to take your lands you wouldn't have a realm right now. You only haven't had your lands taken because we chose not to take them, aside from Gallaecia, Kydonia and Celtiberia (I don't see you retaking them). You can't really slag off D'Hara and Terran for having lost land just because you've had it easy and your enemy doesn't want to take your lands. At least they reconquered their lost territory from us.

Barca has no place acting smug because you're relatively intact when it's Terran and D'Hara who have actually been fighting this war on the front lines with all the risks and consequences that have come with it.

If you hadn't noticed, Aurvandil doesn't even bother to fight Barca unless you make a foray into our lands, as your realm and it's regions are detritus to us.

The Zuma obviously have nothing to do with this. Right, you don't attack just because you don't want to...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on January 19, 2013, 04:09:39 PM
The Zuma obviously have nothing to do with this. Right, you don't attack just because you don't want to...

Correct the zuma are not relevant and Aurvandil knows it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 19, 2013, 04:13:30 PM
The Zuma obviously have nothing to do with this. Right, you don't attack just because you don't want to...

The Zuma didn't really pan out when we last waltzed into Rettleville and Twainwood and did as we pleased, did it?

Haktoo and Mendicant have an understanding over Barca. Besides which, when have you known Aurvandil to cow to military threats? Never.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 19, 2013, 04:17:28 PM
The Zuma didn't really pan out when we last waltzed into Rettleville and Twainwood and did as we pleased, did it?

Haktoo and Mendicant have an understanding over Barca. Besides which, when have you known Aurvandil to cow to military threats? Never.

Prove your might against the Zuma, then, if everyone else' armies bore you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on January 19, 2013, 04:20:09 PM
Prove your might against the Zuma, then, if everyone else' armies bore you.

Why would we take on another fight while we're fighting all of you. Your realm may be a waste of space but we only have so many fly swatters.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 19, 2013, 04:33:41 PM
Prove your might against the Zuma, then, if everyone else' armies bore you.

Aurvandil isn't a cudgel for beating other realms with.

I'd rather have Mendicant court Haktoo for the hilarity of it.

You almost sound offended that we have a low opinion of your armies. Well you aren't even fighting us, and when you deigned to say you were you didn't do it properly. Terran and D'Hara both refuse to fight conventionally and would rather let us walk around and raid their lands till we get bored and leave than face us in the field. That's no fun, at least Fissoa man's up and faces their opponent in the field.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 19, 2013, 04:35:00 PM
Why would we take on another fight while we're fighting all of you. Your realm may be a waste of space but we only have so many fly swatters.

D'Hara isn't a waste of space, and we're not even fighting them any more.

And we sort of just did take on another fight whilst "fighting them".
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 19, 2013, 06:49:23 PM
If Aurvandil had a mind to take your lands you wouldn't have a realm right now. You only haven't had your lands taken because we chose not to take them, aside from Gallaecia, Kydonia and Celtiberia (I don't see you retaking them). You can't really slag off D'Hara and Terran for having lost land just because you've had it easy and your enemy doesn't want to take your lands. At least they reconquered their lost territory from us.

Barca has no place acting smug because you're relatively intact when it's Terran and D'Hara who have actually been fighting this war on the front lines with all the risks and consequences that have come with it.

If you hadn't noticed, Aurvandil doesn't even bother to fight Barca unless you make a foray into our lands, as your realm and it's regions are detritus to us.

It is good to see you don't have interest in Barca, and I'm glad to read from you "D'Hara reconquered" rather than your so habitual "we just let them take it because that was our plan". As you say, Barca can't do anything to retake the regions you mentioned. However, it's surprising you like to mention them when you got them by giving home to traitors and deserters.

You talk about detritus, but turns out that you seem to like the presence of many detritus of other realms within your borders. You have big armies and plenty of characters to feed your smug attitude, but you aren't quite selective to accept new ones of doubtless reputation and shady origins. It's clear it's the goal what matters rather than the way.

I remember some posts in which you talked contemptuously about the deals Barca have with the Zuma, and seems Mendicant make them too. If the Zuma didn't supported Barca in your invasion I think it was rather due to the fact Barca threw the first stone. And I'd like to add that if it was because of your deals with the Zuma, in your place I wouldn't say it loud after all the boasting on Aurvandil you have had.

Talking about Fissoa, I don't know the whole story but it seems you just shown up with almost 2000 men landing in the core of they realm with no war declaration.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on January 19, 2013, 06:52:39 PM

Talking about Fissoa, I don't know the whole story but it seems you just shown up with almost 2000 men landing in the core of they realm with no war declaration.

15/1600, but for the rest your assumptions are correct.
Allthough Mendicant sent out a message declaring war just before the landing, he did not officially declare war game mechanics wise.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 19, 2013, 07:06:42 PM
15/1600, but for the rest your assumptions are correct.
Allthough Mendicant sent out a message declaring war just before the landing, he did not officially declare war game mechanics wise.

I see. I guess that's the way to avoid the squeezed peasants to have some wish of independence for a real war declaration. I am curious to know how much is "just before". The turn before? Enough time to allow the Fissoan nobles fighting in Falkirk to return and defend their lands?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on January 19, 2013, 07:23:31 PM
I see. I guess that's the way to avoid the squeezed peasants to have some wish of independence for a real war declaration. I am curious to know how much is "just before". The turn before? Enough time to allow the Fissoan nobles fighting in Falkirk to return and defend their lands?

the turn before the landing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on January 19, 2013, 07:25:06 PM
Plenty of warning. What more could you want?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 19, 2013, 08:23:56 PM
The meaning of it, it has never happened before.

And at least this '!@#$ty' ally doesn't allow their lands to be consumed by Aurvandil. Then you would have a much bigger problem.
I apologize for the harsh description of you and your realm in my previous post.
D'Hara isn't a waste of space, and we're not even fighting them any more.

And we sort of just did take on another fight whilst "fighting them".
Thank you for your kind words.
It is good to see you don't have interest in Barca, and I'm glad to read from you "D'Hara reconquered" rather than your so habitual "we just let them take it because that was our plan". As you say, Barca can't do anything to retake the regions you mentioned. However, it's surprising you like to mention them when you got them by giving home to traitors and deserters.

You talk about detritus, but turns out that you seem to like the presence of many detritus of other realms within your borders. You have big armies and plenty of characters to feed your smug attitude, but you aren't quite selective to accept new ones of doubtless reputation and shady origins. It's clear it's the goal what matters rather than the way.

I remember some posts in which you talked contemptuously about the deals Barca have with the Zuma, and seems Mendicant make them too. If the Zuma didn't supported Barca in your invasion I think it was rather due to the fact Barca threw the first stone. And I'd like to add that if it was because of your deals with the Zuma, in your place I wouldn't say it loud after all the boasting on Aurvandil you have had.

Talking about Fissoa, I don't know the whole story but it seems you just shown up with almost 2000 men landing in the core of they realm with no war declaration.
To the detritus stuff, Aurvandil's sees the lords that joined them not as traitors but as lords escaping a corrupt realm that may have put bounties on their own lords. As to Allison, she isn't scum or anything but many see her as a heretic which can equate to the same except that you can't fault a realm for not caring about someone's religious troubles when they believe in a separation of state and religion.

To the Zuma stuff, AFAIK, Mendicant has spoke with the Zuma to find out what of Barca he can attack without the Zuma caring to defend it but there has been no deals as that would be considered dishonorable.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on January 19, 2013, 09:32:19 PM
Also, Allison is in Aurvandil.  She has a great relationship with the Zuma.  I am quite sure that Aurvandil has little to fear from the Zuma.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 19, 2013, 10:01:55 PM
It is good to see you don't have interest in Barca, and I'm glad to read from you "D'Hara reconquered" rather than your so habitual "we just let them take it because that was our plan".

The two stances don't contradict each other, D'Hara did reconquer because we made no effort to defend them. Unless D'Hara has an army larger and stronger than Aurvandil, which they don't, and capable of beating Aurvandil behind a level 5 fortress, or a level 2 motte and bailey, which they can't, then it substantiates the claim that they would never have taken the lands if we made an effort to defend them, which is perfectly true. The lands were a throwaway to buy us time and weren't worth the renewed war to defend.

You talk about detritus, but turns out that you seem to like the presence of many detritus of other realms within your borders. You have big armies and plenty of characters to feed your smug attitude, but you aren't quite selective to accept new ones of doubtless reputation and shady origins. It's clear it's the goal what matters rather than the way.

It's not smugness.

And no, I'm not selective. Anyone can join Aurvandil within reason, so long as they abandon their previous culture and affiliation for the Commonwealth. We're very accepting of foreign nobles, as the original Orvandeaux was a mixture of Liberite's and Madinian's we don't set much astore to ethnicity.

I remember some posts in which you talked contemptuously about the deals Barca have with the Zuma, and seems Mendicant make them too. If the Zuma didn't supported Barca in your invasion I think it was rather due to the fact Barca threw the first stone. And I'd like to add that if it was because of your deals with the Zuma, in your place I wouldn't say it loud after all the boasting on Aurvandil you have had.

Mendicant has made no deals with the Zuma nor has Aurvandil, ever, we simply have an understanding. Which is to say, Mendicant understands what Haktoo will or won't do regarding Barca.

Talking about Fissoa, I don't know the whole story but it seems you just shown up with almost 2000 men landing in the core of they realm with no war declaration.

We wouldn't want to give the Moot enough forewarning to make a competent advance into Aurvandil when we're invading another realm, would we?

We declared war before our arrival, as is the Aurvandilan way. We might have spoken earlier but Blacksheep is famous for refusing any sort of peace talks or negotiations.

I see. I guess that's the way to avoid the squeezed peasants to have some wish of independence for a real war declaration. I am curious to know how much is "just before". The turn before? Enough time to allow the Fissoan nobles fighting in Falkirk to return and defend their lands?

I would have declared war, but I forgot that you can't declare war straight from peace for some reason.

Then I held back on a game mechanics declaration because of negotiations with Luria Nova, Aurvandil doesn't intend a long term war with Fissoa anyway and a game mechanics declaration would rather give the impression we do. We're just jousting Fissoa at the moment.

To the Zuma stuff, AFAIK, Mendicant has spoke with the Zuma to find out what of Barca he can attack without the Zuma caring to defend it but there has been no deals as that would be considered dishonorable.

Exactly that. I just asked her what her treaty was with Barca, she explained, so I pointed out the holes in the treaty that allows me to attack them and she said she would uphold what was written in the treaty and nothing else.

Also, Allison is in Aurvandil.  She has a great relationship with the Zuma.  I am quite sure that Aurvandil has little to fear from the Zuma.

I shall have to make a dynastic marriage, marry Allison off to Haktoo.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on January 19, 2013, 10:42:22 PM
Then I held back on a game mechanics declaration because of negotiations with Luria Nova, Aurvandil doesn't intend a long term war with Fissoa anyway and a game mechanics declaration would rather give the impression we do. We're just jousting Fissoa at the moment.

The thing is mate, that doesn't work.

You only intended to joust with Barca too. And you're still at war.

Limited wars only work if both sides want to keep them limited.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 19, 2013, 11:35:11 PM
The two stances don't contradict each other, D'Hara did reconquer because we made no effort to defend them. Unless D'Hara has an army larger and stronger than Aurvandil, which they don't, and capable of beating Aurvandil behind a level 5 fortress, or a level 2 motte and bailey, which they can't, then it substantiates the claim that they would never have taken the lands if we made an effort to defend them, which is perfectly true. The lands were a throwaway to buy us time and weren't worth the renewed war to defend.

Of course they're not contradictory sentences, but the first one sounded something different from the usual disdain I'm getting used to read from Aurvandilians towards their foes. It couldn't last for long.

And no, I'm not selective. Anyone can join Aurvandil within reason, so long as they abandon their previous culture and affiliation for the Commonwealth. We're very accepting of foreign nobles, as the original Orvandeaux was a mixture of Liberite's and Madinian's we don't set much astore to ethnicity.

As you know, I wasn't talking about ethnic origins. I was pointing that I would expect from a realm with a background supposedly based on chivalry and honour to have more scruples towards nobles accused of treason (in a case) and bribery (in another). As Penchant says, Aurvandilians justified their will to keep those regions with the "corruption" issue that some time ago was discussed here. Penchant, Aurvandil has (as far as I know) impeded the spreading of any religion; I think it's something different from a separation of state and religion, maybe rather an imposed state secularism, which could contradict the acceptation of a noble who wants to create a new religion. Anyway I wasn't talking about giving home to a schismatic or heretic noble within a religion's point of view.

We declared war before our arrival, as is the Aurvandilan way. We might have spoken earlier but Blacksheep is famous for refusing any sort of peace talks or negotiations.

I don't know who "Blacksheep" is, and I guess a turn before can be enough for the Aurvandilian way. Which I guess I'd expect from someone from a realm who doesn't complain regularly because can't get a nice war from his enemies. The "Moot forewarning" reason contradicts an announcement one of your realm-mates made in the forum about the invasion of Fissoa. And if it is actually a reason, it surprises me to see so much prudence from you when not even 1/3 of your nobles went for tourism there, and later you challenged in this topic your enemies to attack you in your own lands. And as you know, "jousting" talks about combats under equally conditions amongst gentlemen, rather than furtive landing attacks against a surprised enemy.

Regarding Mendicant's conversations with the Zuma, you say you don't bother about Barca but it seems you "look for the holes on a treaty" to know how to inflict damage to an enemy with no reprisals. Very chivalric indeed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 12:11:12 AM
Of course they're not contradictory sentences, but the first one sounded something different from the usual disdain I'm getting used to read from Aurvandilians towards their foes. It couldn't last for long.

You shouldn't take the disdain so personally. It's not an act of contempt as you seem to think it is, it's what the English refer to as a Cavalier attitude, which is to say an attitude of offhand disregard and being more non chalant about things as they occur.

As you know, I wasn't talking about ethnic origins. I was pointing that I would expect from a realm with a background supposedly based on chivalry and honour to have more scruples towards nobles accused of treason (in a case) and bribery (in another). As Penchant says, Aurvandilians justified their will to keep those regions with the "corruption" issue that some time ago was discussed here. Penchant, Aurvandil has (as far as I know) impeded the spreading of any religion; I think it's something different from a separation of state and religion, maybe rather an imposed state secularism, which could contradict the acceptation of a noble who wants to create a new religion. Anyway I wasn't talking about giving home to a schismatic or heretic noble within a religion's point of view.

We accepted the nobles because they asked for our protection, and were fleeing political persecution. We don't accept criminals or rogues or outlaws.

Any noble who joins Aurvandil does so accepting the consequence that they keep their religion personal, restricted to their beliefs and household.

I don't know who "Blacksheep" is

Nor do I mate.
and I guess a turn before can be enough for the Aurvandilian way. Which I guess I'd expect from someone from a realm who doesn't complain regularly because can't get a nice war from his enemies.

We're not fighting Fissoa for a good war, we're fighting them for a good reason. Thus, we adopt a policy of brutal efficiency to resolve it as soon as possible without regard for enjoyment.

The "Moot forewarning" reason contradicts an announcement one of your realm-mates made in the forum about the invasion of Fissoa. And if it is actually a reason, it surprises me to see so much prudence from you when not even 1/3 of your nobles went for tourism there, and later you challenged in this topic your enemies to attack you in your own lands. And as you know, "jousting" talks about combats under equally conditions amongst gentlemen, rather than furtive landing attacks against a surprised enemy.

The Moot forewarning wasn't really the reason, it was more of an offhand remark that it was one of the benefits.

The jousting phrase was a colloquialism, which is to say we're sparring rather than fighting properly.

Regarding Mendicant's conversations with the Zuma, you say you don't bother about Barca but it seems you "look for the holes on a treaty" to know how to inflict damage to an enemy with no reprisals. Very chivalric indeed.

We spoke with Haktoo to see to what extent we may conduct warfare without breaching the sanctuary she granted them, we have no cause for war with the Zuma and we would not attack them so as to attack our other foe. One does not attack a retainer without it being an attack upon his liege, so to speak.

And you shouldn't try to use what I say directly OOC to reflect on our IC, because I speak much more informally about it from an OOC perspective.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 12:15:20 AM
The thing is mate, that doesn't work.

You only intended to joust with Barca too. And you're still at war.

Limited wars only work if both sides want to keep them limited.

Aye, but this situation is different.

Fissoa can't attack us if they continue a war with Falkirk, and by all accounts they're desperate to see Falkirk conquered. ]

And to be fair, I'm not really at war with Barca, more Barca's allies, and we can't be bothered as things are to enact a peace or destruction process with Barca, so as to bring peace. But then again, maybe I ought to. The only thing that seems to hold Barca in the Moot is the stance of war between us, remove that and the Moot will lose its unifying aspect.

But, I imagine Barca will be all Madina about it and refuse a peace where they keep their lands even when they're on their death bed. Inconvenient defiance for no good end.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 20, 2013, 12:41:13 AM
Barca was part of the 'moot since way before Aurvandil was around. To claim that the war is the only thing keep the 'moot together is rather ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on January 20, 2013, 01:06:31 AM
To be perfectly frank, I have no idea what the Moot is doing, OOC or IC  :-\
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 20, 2013, 03:00:44 AM
To be perfectly frank, I have no idea what the Moot is doing, OOC or IC  :-\
I have good news I forgot to tell you earlier. The good news is that Alura will be back. The bad news is that Greg's laptop broke so he won't be back for roughly a month still.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 03:18:18 AM
Barca was part of the 'moot since way before Aurvandil was around. To claim that the war is the only thing keep the 'moot together is rather ridiculous.

Yes, to claim that would be.

But what I did claim, was it seems the war is the only thing keep Barca in the Moot. Considering how much you seem to resent one another and hold nothing but contempt.

To be perfectly frank, I have no idea what the Moot is doing, OOC or IC  :-\

Don't worry, I feel the same about Aurvandil when I notice we're still at war, still! It's been ages already. Some one die or give up or something.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 20, 2013, 03:44:21 AM
Yes, to claim that would be.

But what I did claim, was it seems the war is the only thing keep Barca in the Moot. Considering how much you seem to resent one another and hold nothing but contempt.
I disagree, the main cases of resentment are because of the war. We got a long just fine before, especially D'hara and Barca as we were quite happy with them when we bought their food.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 03:48:16 AM
I disagree, the main cases of resentment are because of the war. We got a long just fine before, especially D'hara and Barca as we were quite happy with them when we bought their food.

I like to think of that as you got along fine until you actually had to talk and interact over anything meaningful, then you realised you were stuck with idiots.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on January 20, 2013, 04:20:56 AM
I am kind of getting tired of this dog pile to. I mean at first it's fun but then you realize terran's butt is in your face and the astroists have that stinky cologne on. and then you see Asylon coming over. and no one likes Asylon. let's make peace already so we can go fight the lurias!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on January 20, 2013, 04:51:41 AM
I am kind of getting tired of this dog pile to. I mean at first it's fun but then you realize terran's butt is in your face and the astroists have that stinky cologne on. and then you see Asylon coming over. and no one likes Asylon. let's make peace already so we can go fight the lurias!

Oh...oh Chernier help me, for the temptation is so great!... :'(
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on January 20, 2013, 05:17:59 AM
The biggest problem with the dog pile war is that everyone's dog piled in some random friendly region, rather than on the enemy. I ditched my unit a month ago because I knew I'd never be using it. I have been vindicated because so far it has not been needed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on January 20, 2013, 01:41:18 PM
I am kind of getting tired of this dog pile to. I mean at first it's fun but then you realize terran's butt is in your face and the astroists have that stinky cologne on. and then you see Asylon coming over. and no one likes Asylon. let's make peace already so we can go fight the lurias!

hey! Dont be mean, Asylon has gotten several boxes of chocolate and flowers the past weeks, so maybe someone likes Asylon, or maybe they just want us to come to the party so everyone else leaves... dunno really, we are just happy with the attention.

Ontopic: Go! Go team blue!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 02:19:07 PM
Allison with a church, Aurvandil helping Falkirk, Fissoa getting it up the wrong'un til they bleed.

This is what happens when you leave us alone. We get bored and do things we otherwise would  never have done.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 20, 2013, 03:41:19 PM
Allison with a church, Aurvandil helping Falkirk, Fissoa getting it up the wrong'un til they bleed.

This is what happens when you leave us alone. We get bored and do things we otherwise would  never have done.

Or rather you do things we have always stated you would.

The orvando-saxons unite as we always knew they would.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on January 20, 2013, 03:52:09 PM
Or rather you do things we have always stated you would.

The orvando-saxons unite as we always knew they would.

Well with your persecuting them constantly I'd hardly blame them IC or OOC
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 20, 2013, 04:41:28 PM
Well with your persecuting them constantly I'd hardly blame them IC or OOC
What?! Persecuting? What interactions suggest that. I am not saying IC or OOC we ever thought they weren't an ally of Aurvandil but I don't believe we ever persecuted them in a manner they would know about.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on January 20, 2013, 05:36:03 PM
Well with your persecuting them constantly I'd hardly blame them IC or OOC

Oh yeah.

All the times we've invaded their territory and conquered their lands.

We're hardcore persecutors.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 20, 2013, 05:41:54 PM
Well with your persecuting them constantly I'd hardly blame them IC or OOC

Poor Aurvandilians, just like the Lurians, it's not their fault if they insist on war with their neighbors!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on January 20, 2013, 05:54:32 PM
No point wasting time with diplomacy, everyone's backstabbing bitch ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 20, 2013, 06:17:42 PM
I like to think of that as you got along fine until you actually had to talk and interact over anything meaningful, then you realised you were stuck with idiots.

Don't heat up mate, maybe you're taking things too personal. Is that Cavalier attitude?  ;)

And you shouldn't try to use what I say directly OOC to reflect on our IC, because I speak much more informally about it from an OOC perspective.

... ?? I guess you talk about the "looking for the holes in a treaty" expression, because if not I can't find the sense of this sentence. If you actually discussed with Haktoo which are the limits to attack Barca without any risk to be attacked by the Zuma, you (OOC expression) were looking for the holes of the Zuma-Barca treaty or pact. Which in my opinion has little to do (IC speaking) with a Cavalier attitude. It's rather an exercise of calculation and exhaustive pragmatism. Maybe I had a romantic view of Cavaliers that you don't share as it seems.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 06:27:31 PM
Or rather you do things we have always stated you would.

The orvando-saxons unite as we always knew they would.

The.... what...

I don't even.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
Poor Aurvandilians, just like the Lurians, it's not their fault if they insist on war with their neighbors!

Sorry mate, but it's the Moot that is insisting on war... that has been the case for months now. Not the other way around, Mendicant has repeatedly asked for peace, nothing.

Poor D'Hara, they still think they're the victim of aggression in all this. Right after you attack us in Gallaecia after only yesterday having your Prime Minister say he wouldn't pursue further war with Aurvandil.

Don't heat up mate, maybe you're taking things too personal. Is that Cavalier attitude?  ;)

There was no "heating up". It's hard to inflect tone but there it was more of an indifferent remark.

Maybe I had a romantic view of Cavaliers that you don't share as it seems.

I draw my understanding of Chivalry and Chevaliers from books written in the fourteenth century for the French Order of the Star, which outline exactly what it  means to be a Chevalier and to adhere to Chivalry. You can get a good translated copy on amazon I've found.

And it's an excellent source for understanding the medieval mindset and the SMA.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 20, 2013, 06:56:15 PM
Maybe if in some time Mendicant wants peace with the Fissoan and they show him where he can put his treaty, he'll learn it's not only about the Moot. It's about giving some meaning to diplomatic relations, rather than to use them for game-mechanics to keep calm the civil population.

Who are the victims in all this? Are there any?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on January 20, 2013, 06:57:48 PM
Chenier is the only victim
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on January 20, 2013, 06:59:16 PM
Chenier is the only victim

CHenier is always the victim
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 07:00:04 PM
Maybe if in some time Mendicant wants peace with the Fissoan and they show him where he can put his treaty, he'll learn it's not only about the Moot. It's about giving some meaning to diplomatic relations, rather than to use them for game-mechanics to keep calm the civil population.

Who are the victims in all this? Are there any?

That isn't why we didn't formally declare war, as I said it's due to on going talks with Luria Nova. As if I'd be so cheap to use such a ploy to try and circumvent game mechs.

And is there a victim? I don't think there is. This has gone on far too long on account of both the Moot and Aurvandil for one side to simply be a victim.

Chenier is the only victim

After the Paisly incident? Definitely.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 20, 2013, 07:09:22 PM
There was no "heating up". It's hard to inflect tone but there it was more of an indifferent remark.

Oh, sorry. I don't usually use insults when I feel indifferent.

I draw my understanding of Chivalry and Chevaliers from books written in the fourteenth century for the French Order of the Star, which outline exactly what it  means to be a Chevalier and to adhere to Chivalry. You can get a good translated copy on amazon I've found.

And it's an excellent source for understanding the medieval mindset and the SMA.

Maybe you copied and pasted it perfectly to the Wiki, but it doesn't mean your actions fit to those of the French Order of the Star. Thanks for the reference.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 07:14:35 PM
Oh, sorry. I don't usually use insults when I feel indifferent.

Maybe you copied and pasted it perfectly to the Wiki, but it doesn't mean your actions fit to those of the French Order of the Star. Thanks for the reference.

Nope, haven't copy and pasted anything onto the wiki, and if you notice there isn't anything about chivalry on our wiki pages, yet.

And well, we're not trying to copy the Order of the Star, we are however using the Codes of Chivalry of the time as a guideline. Sadly the game mechanics don't support some of the things we'd have to do to, such as never retreating.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 20, 2013, 07:40:24 PM
Poor D'Hara, they still think they're the victim of aggression in all this. Right after you attack us in Gallaecia after only yesterday having your Prime Minister say he wouldn't pursue further war with Aurvandil.

I have received a report about a skirmish in Gallaecia involving a Barcan noble, which I don't know the reason. After the way you raided Barcan lands last time, I think he's not in his right mind. I guess some explanation will come soon.

Nope, haven't copy and pasted anything onto the wiki, and if you notice there isn't anything about chivalry on our wiki pages, yet.

And well, we're not trying to copy the Order of the Star, we are however using the Codes of Chivalry of the time as a guideline. Sadly the game mechanics don't support some of the things we'd have to do to, such as never retreating.

"The Candielian Kingdom and Commonqwealth of Aurvandil; a Monarchy and Commonwealth built upon the founding principles of Sovereignty, Royalism and Chivalry (...)"

The first lines. I won't spend more time to check for more. Maybe some day I'll take a look to the book you quoted to see if the arrogance is other of the principles the Codes if Chivalry defend. I think however it's more like being humble and selfless.

Why would you have to retreat if you wouldn't engage a combat against overwhelming numbered enemies?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 20, 2013, 07:52:31 PM
Oh, we can "want peace" like Aurvandilians too. Tell you what: Give all coastal regions you own on the Western Continent to D'Hara, and the rest to Barca, and we can be friends.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on January 20, 2013, 08:06:03 PM
Oh, we can "want peace" like Aurvandilians too. Tell you what: Give all coastal regions you own on the Western Continent to D'Hara, and the rest to Barca, and we can be friends.

Very few comments i have ever seen you make have furthered the conversation at all. Is it that hard to put your emotions aside and objectively talk about the war?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 20, 2013, 08:10:37 PM
Very few comments i have ever seen you make have furthered the conversation at all. Is it that hard to put your emotions aside and objectively talk about the war?
Well his point was we want you dead and you never offer peace. (At the beginning with Barca and the big communication fiasco and to D'hara when you took the duchy of Paisly, said we could have it back if we were neutral so we stayed neutral and you made a realm there which was a huge !@#$ you in D'hara's eyes.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 08:18:13 PM
Oh, we can "want peace" like Aurvandilians too. Tell you what: Give all coastal regions you own on the Western Continent to D'Hara, and the rest to Barca, and we can be friends.

That's cute.

Well his point was we want you dead and you never offer peace. (At the beginning with Barca and the big communication fiasco and to D'hara when you took the duchy of Paisly, said we could have it back if we were neutral so we stayed neutral and you made a realm there which was a huge !@#$ you in D'hara's eyes.

I kept offering peace to D'Hara. Hell, even yesterday I asked D'Hara if they would be happy to maintain peace between our realms. Though D'Hara are now rallying to attack Aurvandil, rather than keep the peace.

And didn't your mother ever tell you "I want never gets"? You've gotta ask nicely.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 20, 2013, 08:25:05 PM
That's cute.

I kept offering peace to D'Hara. Hell, even yesterday I asked D'Hara if they would be happy to maintain peace between our realms. Though D'Hara are now rallying to attack Aurvandil, rather than keep the peace.

And didn't your mother ever tell you "I want never gets"? You've gotta ask nicely.
I have only ever seen those two peace offers and I have been a part of the House of Lords for months. I am not saying Rynn isn't keeping things to himself but you could include ambassadors in the convo so its not one person with the info, ie an ambassador could bring things to the HoL if they think Rynn should have and didn't. Also, its kinda BS your whole D'hara is rallying to attack Aurvandil as one rogue dame does not mean we are rallying an offensive. I don't even think the dame is in an army and when has D'hara ever attacked Gallecia or attacked period?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 08:29:00 PM
I have received a report about a skirmish in Gallaecia involving a Barcan noble, which I don't know the reason. After the way you raided Barcan lands last time, I think he's not in his right mind. I guess some explanation will come soon.

"The Candielian Kingdom and Commonqwealth of Aurvandil; a Monarchy and Commonwealth built upon the founding principles of Sovereignty, Royalism and Chivalry (...)"

The first lines. I won't spend more time to check for more. Maybe some day I'll take a look to the book you quoted to see if the arrogance is other of the principles the Codes if Chivalry defend. I think however it's more like being humble and selfless.

Depends on which school of Chivalry you go by. Though neither word particularly fits it.

Chevaliers were expected to be humble in the sense of what they were and the finery they had, it was considered most unbecoming for them to wear ridiculous fine clothes that revealed the shape of your body and so forth. As for selfless, well it depends on what you mean. But Aurvandil holds itself to the selfless part rather well, we make a strong point of it.

Why would you have to retreat if you wouldn't engage a combat against overwhelming numbered enemies?

Since when did the larger force automatically win? A smaller force of soldiers can prove themselves superior on the battlefield, as was repeatedly shown during the hundred years war. You would have to retreat if you lost the battle and weren't willing to stand and die.

Very few comments i have ever seen you make have furthered the conversation at all. Is it that hard to put your emotions aside and objectively talk about the war?

He's just permanently upset over the whole Paisly and "Chenier is rapist" thing.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 08:29:47 PM
I have only ever seen those two peace offers and I have been a part of the House of Lords for months. I am not saying Rynn isn't keeping things to himself but you could include ambassadors in the convo so its not one person with the info, ie an ambassador could bring things to the HoL if they think Rynn should have and didn't. Also, its kinda BS your whole D'hara is rallying to attack Aurvandil as one rogue dame does not mean we are rallying an offensive. I don't even think the dame is in an army and when has D'hara ever attacked Gallecia or attacked period?

No I mean, you're rallying in Fissoa to attack us.

Forget Gallaecia.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 20, 2013, 08:36:29 PM
Quote
Though D'Hara are now rallying to attack Aurvandil, rather than keep the peace.
No I mean, you're rallying in Fissoa to attack us.

Forget Gallaecia.
We may be rallying in Fissoa to help defend an ally but I consider aiding an ally in defense against your army quite different than attacking your realm. Also even if it ends being us attacking your army I still consider it defense as we are defending our ally from your army.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 08:37:06 PM
We may be rallying in Fissoa to help defend an ally but I consider aiding an ally in defense against your army quite different than attacking your realm. Also even if it ends being us attacking your army I still consider it defense as we are defending our ally from your army.

Oh yes that is true enough, my mistake.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on January 20, 2013, 08:39:54 PM
No I mean, you're rallying in Fissoa to attack us.

Forget Gallaecia.

If you weren't attacking Fissoa, D'Haran forces wouldn't be preparing to defend their ally against your attacks.

It's not "attacking" when it's the Aurvandilians who are on the offensive, we usually refer to that as "defending".  It's a cute slight though, implying that D'Hara is the aggressor when in fact it's Aurvandil who is at fault.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 08:44:19 PM
If you weren't attacking Fissoa, D'Haran forces wouldn't be preparing to defend their ally against your attacks.

It's not "attacking" when it's the Aurvandilians who are on the offensive, we usually refer to that as "defending".  It's a cute slight though, implying that D'Hara is the aggressor when in fact it's Aurvandil who is at fault.

Yes well my apologies well what I meant to say was that D'Hara are the ones moving to recontinue hostilities, not attack Aurvandil. Though, it'll be interesting to see if they do attack the Aurvandilan army rather than hold up a defensive position in Fissoa.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 20, 2013, 08:44:39 PM
If you weren't attacking Fissoa, D'Haran forces wouldn't be preparing to defend their ally against your attacks.

It's not "attacking" when it's the Aurvandilians who are on the offensive, we usually refer to that as "defending".  It's a cute slight though, implying that D'Hara is the aggressor when in fact it's Aurvandil who is at fault.
Are you playing now? And yeah though no need to continue arguing when he already agreed to that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on January 20, 2013, 08:48:44 PM
Yes well my apologies well what I meant to say was that D'Hara are the ones moving to recontinue hostilities, not attack Aurvandil. Though, it'll be interesting to see if they do attack the Aurvandilan army rather than hold up a defensive position in Fissoa.

Offcourse that also depends on what Aurvendil and falk forces in fissoa do.
There in massive numbers, there isnt going to be a nice/decent battle if falk/aurvendil don't attack the fields.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 08:54:44 PM
Offcourse that also depends on what Aurvendil and falk forces in fissoa do.
There in massive numbers, there isnt going to be a nice/decent battle if falk/aurvendil don't attack the fields.

We could have sacked the Fields in a late turn move if we wanted to, as it had what was it, a hundred men defending it? Well it's doomed to failure if we attack with just the Fissoan army defending it, let alone Fissoa and D'Hara. And we've nicely cut the Grand Duchy in half, from Libba, to Munawai to Mangai. Once Munawai and Libba revolt as well your realm will be severed in two. No sense deviating from this course.

I suppose we'll also have to consider the Lurian army turning up as well when we least expect it.

But if Aurvandil was serious about taking down Fissoa we would have sent more than one and a half armies. We're just here to put you in a position sufficiently bad to discourage any forays in Falkirk and to pressure you into accepting a peace without the conquest of Falkirk. ('Cause it always works when I try to pressure realms to peace militarily sigh).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 20, 2013, 09:27:34 PM
But if Aurvandil was serious about taking down Fissoa we would have sent more than one and a half armies. We're just here to put you in a position sufficiently bad to discourage any forays in Falkirk and to pressure you into accepting a peace without the conquest of Falkirk. ('Cause it always works when I try to pressure realms to peace militarily sigh).

Doesn't it sound like:

"Aurvandil, !@#$ YEAH! Coming again to save the m*ther f*cking day, YEAH!"

Loved the film.  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on January 20, 2013, 09:28:49 PM
We could have sacked the Fields in a late turn move if we wanted to, as it had what was it, a hundred men defending it? Well it's doomed to failure if we attack with just the Fissoan army defending it, let alone Fissoa and D'Hara. And we've nicely cut the Grand Duchy in half, from Libba, to Munawai to Mangai. Once Munawai and Libba revolt as well your realm will be severed in two. No sense deviating from this course
obviously, yes, just hoping for a huge battle, we all love that, it ain't a crime.


Quote
We're just here to put you in a position sufficiently bad to discourage any forays in Falkirk and to pressure you into accepting a peace without the conquest of Falkirk. ('Cause it always works when I try to pressure realms to peace militarily sigh).
Perhaps try a different diplomatic strategy? given that the sigh implicates its ineffectiveness.
Your dfinatly weakening Fissoa somewhat for a certain amount of time, 'n also lowering our effective offensive amry a bit.
But mostly, what your doing effectively is showing Fissoa how your army rocks, which we already knew :)
Thanks for the show.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 20, 2013, 09:49:33 PM
obviously, yes, just hoping for a huge battle, we all love that, it ain't a crime.

As am I...

Perhaps try a different diplomatic strategy? given that the sigh implicates its ineffectiveness.
Your dfinatly weakening Fissoa somewhat for a certain amount of time, 'n also lowering our effective offensive amry a bit.
But mostly, what your doing effectively is showing Fissoa how your army rocks, which we already knew :)
Thanks for the show.

I'm betting Falkirk could have dealt with Fissoa easily enough, considering how they keep massacring the armies every time they march; Falkirk's army is far stronger than it was at the start of the war and on top of that, they've gone from being a two region realm, to owning all the east Mendicontinent whilst beating back Fissoa.

So I guess it is rather overkill for Aurvandil to be there as well. But our army needs exercising, our nobles need something to do, and the Moot needs provoking into attacking us, either they !@#$ or they get of the pot, basically. We haven't fought a battle in months against each other. I mean, unless we start fighting we may as well formalise peace.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on January 21, 2013, 03:38:15 AM
I'm betting Falkirk could have dealt with Fissoa easily enough, considering how they keep massacring the armies every time they march; Falkirk's army is far stronger than it was at the start of the war and on top of that, they've gone from being a two region realm, to owning all the east Mendicontinent whilst beating back Fissoa.

So I guess it is rather overkill for Aurvandil to be there as well. But our army needs exercising, our nobles need something to do, and the Moot needs provoking into attacking us, either they !@#$ or they get of the pot, basically. We haven't fought a battle in months against each other. I mean, unless we start fighting we may as well formalise peace.

mmm... Good attempt!... but I don't buy it!  ;D

I think you really had a big indigestion of falk propaganda! Aurvandil is in Fissoa because the falkirkians were collapsing... Your presence in Fissoa only shows Flakir? is a puppet state... Not that we didn't know it already!  :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 21, 2013, 03:41:47 AM
That's cute.

I kept offering peace to D'Hara. Hell, even yesterday I asked D'Hara if they would be happy to maintain peace between our realms. Though D'Hara are now rallying to attack Aurvandil, rather than keep the peace.

And didn't your mother ever tell you "I want never gets"? You've gotta ask nicely.

You take our lands, and want peace without even proposing to, at the very least, respect your previous treaties.

Or did you forget about all the Barcan lands you are holding onto?

And yea, offering us peace... "We'll give you Paisly back if you stand down... Nah, we don't care that you stood down after all, we'll still put a puppet in your duchy". Aurvandilians make such great peace offers...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on January 21, 2013, 04:45:55 AM
After 81 pages, I don't see why people are still arguing about this. Everyone (except Falkirk, and maybe Luria) hates Aurvandil. No point in trying to make the other side believe your propaganda.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on January 21, 2013, 04:52:19 AM
After 81 pages, I don't see why people are still arguing about this. Everyone (except Falkirk, and maybe Luria) hates Aurvandil. No point in trying to make the other side believe your propaganda.

We've gone through the "we don't care if people like us" bit a 1000 times too. The propaganda is there because if one side isn't challenged it becomes the accepted fact.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on January 21, 2013, 04:56:20 AM
Everyone (except Falkirk, and maybe Luria) hates Aurvandil.

Asylon do not hate Aurvandil. We find them very interesting and personally I would like to have them as neighbour. Would make a nice addition next to the Zuma and Astrum.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on January 21, 2013, 01:43:25 PM
Luria may not exactly hate Aurvandil, but we're hardly their buds.

We'll be coming to fight them just as soon as we can get our armies straightened out and pointed in the right direction.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on January 21, 2013, 02:30:06 PM
We'll be coming to fight them just as soon as we can get our armies straightened out and pointed in the right direction.
I can almost see the fall of Mendicant. Can't wait for it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on January 21, 2013, 02:30:38 PM
Luria may not exactly hate Aurvandil, but we're hardly their buds.

We'll be coming to fight them just as soon as we can get our armies straightened out and pointed in the right direction.

At least you guys have the balls to march into Aurvandil territory unlike some ... or do you?! ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on January 21, 2013, 02:32:45 PM
At least you guys have the balls to march into Aurvandil territory unlike some ... or do you?! ::)

The balls? Certainly. The only question is whether we can keep all our collective swords pointed in the same direction long enough.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on January 21, 2013, 02:41:32 PM
The balls? Certainly. The only question is whether we can keep all our collective swords pointed in the same direction long enough.

Trust me that once you manage to 'get there attention'  your swords will be directed at the same direction.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on January 21, 2013, 02:51:01 PM
The balls? Certainly. The only question is whether we can keep all our collective swords pointed in the same direction long enough.
Your swords will be pointed in the same direction as long as you ignore Mendicant. His tongue is like poison.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on January 21, 2013, 03:23:31 PM
Your swords will be pointed in the same direction as long as you ignore Mendicant. His tongue is like poison.

Well, I can't speak for all of us, but Alanna rarely listens to someone whose name means "beggar."
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on January 21, 2013, 04:23:38 PM
Well, I can't speak for all of us, but Alanna rarely listens to someone whose name means "beggar."

+1
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on January 21, 2013, 09:08:26 PM
Well, I can't speak for all of us, but Alanna rarely listens to someone whose name means "beggar."
I remember her as someone who rarely listens to anyone.  ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on January 21, 2013, 09:12:02 PM
From what I've seen, she is a character who listens to everyone, but doesn't say much in response. Damned scheming Lurian!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on January 21, 2013, 09:16:50 PM
I remember her as someone who rarely listens to anyone.  ;)

...Has Julian ever actually interacted with her? Or just heard about her from people who felt they were wronged by her? (Like Gwendolyn Elorie Archbane, who spent multiple RL years trying her level best to get Alanna dethroned with no success...)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 21, 2013, 09:21:59 PM
mmm... Good attempt!... but I don't buy it!  ;D

I think you really had a big indigestion of falk propaganda! Aurvandil is in Fissoa because the falkirkians were collapsing... Your presence in Fissoa only shows Flakir? is a puppet state... Not that we didn't know it already!  :P

Falkirk didn't attack Fissoa because we were preparing to jointly take down Fissoa. Falkirk got told at the last minute, Mendicant turned round to Lex and said "My armies are on the move to fight Fissoa, so that's happening". Falkirk as a puppet state, well you realise Aurvandil wouldn't even be fighting with Falkirk right now if people didn't keep saying that? Because everyone assumed Falkirk was a puppet, they went on and on about how they're going to destroy Falkirk and conquer it after Aurvandil and how they're Orvandeaux. Which had the affect of making our enemies, their enemies, forcing us both to the same side.

I don't know, if people had a bit more tact about things then Falkirk wouldn't have been made enemies of the same people who are trying to destroy Aurvandil. Putting Aurvandil in a weaker position. You basically got two of the best militarise to join together when they didn't want to, at all and rather treated each other with indifference (We still do). Lets see how that works out for you. It's given Fissoa quite the beating already.

I can almost see the fall of Mendicant. Can't wait for it.

Sorry mate, that's just not going to happen.

You underestimate just what Aurvandil is capable of. We went into this war with a mindset of delaying our foes militarily to have a chance to negotiate, but as we've lost all chance of negotiations we're fully free to max our our military (which, with 60 nobles is over 4,000 mobile soldiers plus militia, as the upper tier of our limits) and then use it.

Your swords will be pointed in the same direction as long as you ignore Mendicant. His tongue is like poison.

Thank you. Sincerity can do that to a man when he speaks.

As Rynn said, Mendicant has a certain amount of "purity" and sincerity when he bothers to write letters that is rather endearing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 21, 2013, 09:27:53 PM
We've gone through the "we don't care if people like us" bit a 1000 times too. The propaganda is there because if one side isn't challenged it becomes the accepted fact.

Well most of the presented reasons why people hate us is all rubbish anyway. That aside, most people just complain they don't like our attitude. But then, they don't like it when Mendicant is trying to be reasonable and offer them highly advantageous peace and alliances and an all round amicable solution.

Asylon do not hate Aurvandil. We find them very interesting and personally I would like to have them as neighbour. Would make a nice addition next to the Zuma and Astrum.

Asylon make for good conversationalists.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 21, 2013, 09:47:19 PM
Quote
I don't know, if people had a bit more tact about things then Falkirk wouldn't have been made enemies of the same people who are trying to destroy Aurvandil. Putting Aurvandil in a weaker position. You basically got two of the best militarise to join together when they didn't want to, at all and rather treated each other with indifference (We still do). Lets see how that works out for you. It's given Fissoa quite the beating already.
That is total bull!@#$, IMO. Until a week ago there had been 0 thought of anyone aiding Fissoa and by the time D'hara came Aurvandil was already there, with LN not even on the way. Fissoa is doing a land grab which has nothing to do with Aurvandil. D'hara and LN are aiding an ally in defense. There has been 0 aggression against Falkirirk except by Fissoa, who has not done anything against Aurvandil. Fissoa does a decent job against Falkirirk so you bring in the Aurvandilian army and boss Falkirirk around. In what way is that not acting like Falkirirk is a puppet realm of Aurvandil? You complain everyone does all this propaganda but you do propaganda just as much.
Quote
But then, they don't like it when Mendicant is trying to be reasonable and offer them highly advantageous peace and alliances and an all round amicable solution.
Again, I am calling BS. I recall once where D'hara considered an alliance against LN, but then we thought about how you treated Barca after they lent you a city and thought that was a bad idea. As to peace, I don't know about the offer to Barca but the one you gave to D'hara was reasonable except that when you said you would give the duchy of Paisly to D'hara, you then made a realm there instead which was a massive insult. I have never heard of or seen any other peace talks happen, so without any proof or a player with a character outside of Aurvandil confirm it,  I am not going to believe your constant offerings of peace.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 21, 2013, 09:55:25 PM
That is total bull!@#$, IMO. Until a week ago there had been 0 thought of anyone aiding Fissoa and by the time D'hara came Aurvandil was already there, with LN not even on the way. Fissoa is doing a land grab which has nothing to do with Aurvandil. D'hara and LN are aiding an ally in defense. There has been 0 aggression against Falkirirk except by Fissoa, who has not done anything against Aurvandil. Fissoa does a decent job against Falkirirk so you bring in the Aurvandilian army and boss Falkirirk around. In what way is that not acting like Falkirirk is a puppet realm of Aurvandil? You complain everyone does all this propaganda but you do propaganda just as much.

Oh what rubbish, I've seen the letters were Rynn declares he will have Falkirk destroyed and how he incites Fissoa to keep Falkirk occupied so they don't help Aurvandil, and no these letters didn't come from Falkirk so they weren't doctored for the Freestate cause. I've seen the letters were others encourage such actions and incite realms to war with Falkirk, I saw the promises to have Fissoa reinforced in their war.

D'Hara outright declared that after Aurvandil was beaten, they would scourge Falkirk from existence. Many in the Veinsormoot declared Aurvandil and Falkirk as one in the same, what is this whole Orvando-saxon wank if not a unified term to describe both Aurvandil and Falkirk? That, evidently all people think of Falkirk when they see it is a vassal of Aurvandil, that make that clear IC, so it stands to reason on that basis alone that they will war Falkirk, when they declare them puppets of Aurvandil, give them the same derogatory ethnic slur and incite war against them.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 21, 2013, 10:36:09 PM
Oh what rubbish, I've seen the letters were Rynn declares he will have Falkirk destroyed and how he incites Fissoa to keep Falkirk occupied so they don't help Aurvandil, and no these letters didn't come from Falkirk so they weren't doctored for the Freestate cause. I've seen the letters were others encourage such actions and incite realms to war with Falkirk, I saw the promises to have Fissoa reinforced in their war.

D'Hara outright declared that after Aurvandil was beaten, they would scourge Falkirk from existence. Many in the Veinsormoot declared Aurvandil and Falkirk as one in the same, what is this whole Orvando-saxon wank if not a unified term to describe both Aurvandil and Falkirk? That, evidently all people think of Falkirk when they see it is a vassal of Aurvandil, that make that clear IC, so it stands to reason on that basis alone that they will war Falkirk, when they declare them puppets of Aurvandil, give them the same derogatory ethnic slur and incite war against them.
I am not arguing against that per say but you act like Falkirk and Aurvandil are on the edge of survival and forced to band together. That and Falkirk has only ever acted like a puppet to Aurvandil and both Aurvandil and Falkirk never try to act like or say anything that would suggest they are not allies. Sure OOC you claim to not be and actually hate each other or some crap but IG you just go along with what everyone says.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on January 21, 2013, 10:51:47 PM
You underestimate just what Aurvandil is capable of. We went into this war with a mindset of delaying our foes militarily to have a chance to negotiate, but as we've lost all chance of negotiations we're fully free to max our our military (which, with 60 nobles is over 4,000 mobile soldiers plus militia, as the upper tier of our limits) and then use it.

Thank you. Sincerity can do that to a man when he speaks.

As Rynn said, Mendicant has a certain amount of "purity" and sincerity when he bothers to write letters that is rather endearing.

61 If i may correct  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 21, 2013, 11:45:25 PM
Aurvandil just felt threatened, and wanted to go help the Saxons of Madina before D'Haran and Luria Nova could lend Fissoa any help.

Taunting us to "be the attackers" is just a facade.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on January 22, 2013, 12:11:04 AM
Oh what rubbish, I've seen the letters were Rynn declares he will have Falkirk destroyed and how he incites Fissoa to keep Falkirk occupied so they don't help Aurvandil, and no these letters didn't come from Falkirk so they weren't doctored for the Freestate cause. I've seen the letters were others encourage such actions and incite realms to war with Falkirk, I saw the promises to have Fissoa reinforced in their war.

D'Hara outright declared that after Aurvandil was beaten, they would scourge Falkirk from existence. Many in the Veinsormoot declared Aurvandil and Falkirk as one in the same, what is this whole Orvando-saxon wank if not a unified term to describe both Aurvandil and Falkirk? That, evidently all people think of Falkirk when they see it is a vassal of Aurvandil, that make that clear IC, so it stands to reason on that basis alone that they will war Falkirk, when they declare them puppets of Aurvandil, give them the same derogatory ethnic slur and incite war against them.

Well the thought process is pretty simple: If, by some miracle, Aurvandil collapses, where will all those disenfranchised nobles go? Additionally, Fissoa is an official Ally of D'Hara who've been asking for help, so of course D'Hara was coming. Even without Aurvandil arrayed against them, they needed help.

Alliances, people. They are viral. Essential to D'Hara's survival, but potentially one of our greatest weaknesses as well.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 22, 2013, 12:48:27 AM
Alliances, people. They are viral. Essential to D'Hara's survival, but potentially one of our greatest weaknesses as well.

Time will tell.

I tend to consider that alliances are the only reason we are still alive, both thanks to the direct support we got from them and from the passive dissuasive it's offered to would-be invaders.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on January 22, 2013, 08:04:39 AM
...Has Julian ever actually interacted with her? Or just heard about her from people who felt they were wronged by her? (Like Gwendolyn Elorie Archbane, who spent multiple RL years trying her level best to get Alanna dethroned with no success...)
Yes he has. You might not remember but before Julius founded the Republic of Barca, he served Pian en Luries and later Giask.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on January 22, 2013, 01:24:57 PM
Why we think Falkir is a pupet state? Easy, because it seceded peacefully from Aurvandil, because make the same ridiculous diplomacy, and because are as arrogant as the Aurvandils... Oh, and because both are 'heathens'!  ;D

If we believe your words, Falkir is not a puppet state, but a disgraced, ignored puppet state.  :P

BTW. Fissoa didn't attack Falkir, It was the Falkirians the ones to attack Fissoa, without any war declaration! Even in this, both are the same!

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on January 22, 2013, 01:55:06 PM
Yes he has. You might not remember but before Julius founded the Republic of Barca, he served Pian en Luries and later Giask.

Damn, you're right. I had forgotten.

And sorry for getting the name wrong :)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on January 22, 2013, 03:46:33 PM
Damn, you're right. I had forgotten.

And sorry for getting the name wrong :)
No problem. But I love how you play Alanna. Good for the fun.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on January 22, 2013, 08:20:58 PM
Isnt Orthodox Astroism the religion of Aurvandiil now?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on January 23, 2013, 12:06:20 AM
It is the religion of Allison Kabrinski, not Aurvandil.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Eldargard on January 26, 2013, 02:02:48 AM
I recall once where D'hara considered an alliance against LN, but then we thought about how you treated Barca after they lent you a city and thought that was a bad idea.

I was so completely against Barca lending them a city. I have no idea why everyone was so compelled to take that track but I was dead certain that getting Evanburg back would not be pretty. I was outvoted though...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 26, 2013, 02:54:35 AM
I was so completely against Barca lending them a city. I have no idea why everyone was so compelled to take that track but I was dead certain that getting Evanburg back would not be pretty. I was outvoted though...
Well no one really liked Madina is what I hear. The treaty should of been something like, when a clear victory of the war has been established Aurvandil must give back the city.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on January 26, 2013, 03:01:47 AM
Isnt Orthodox Astroism the religion of Aurvandiil now?
I believe it to be the Cult of Reason actually.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on January 26, 2013, 08:15:11 AM
I believe it to be the Cult of Reason actually.

Yep it seems Cult of Reason will be Aurvandils religion. I wonder what effects will Cult of Reason have on OA.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 26, 2013, 04:40:03 PM
Well no one really liked Madina is what I hear. The treaty should of been something like, when a clear victory of the war has been established Aurvandil must give back the city.

You can look it up to confirm, but I'm pretty sure it did.

And yea, nobody liked Madina. They refused until the very end to promise not to invade D'Hara again for Paisly. By then, it was too late. Had they done so when the war broke out, Aurvandil would have been destroyed quickly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on January 26, 2013, 07:29:32 PM
You can look it up to confirm, but I'm pretty sure it did.

And yea, nobody liked Madina. They refused until the very end to promise not to invade D'Hara again for Paisly. By then, it was too late. Had they done so when the war broke out, Aurvandil would have been destroyed quickly.

I don't even remember anyone who was on the Lord's Council that wanted to take Paisly after the Capital was moved to the Tower.   Our issue was Barca, never Paisly.   And then Barca supporting Aurvandil - well, at least that turned out just like Madina said it would. . . pretty sure Vallyn flat up told the Moot that Aurvandil would betray them and keep the city.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on January 26, 2013, 07:43:52 PM
Evanburg is a townsland, not a city.

And well to be fair, Vallyn was talking out of his arse when he said that. Unless he actually predicted the defection of three lords, the subsequent diplomatic slight by Julius and the declaration of war. His assertion was baseless.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on January 26, 2013, 08:11:27 PM
Evanburg is a townsland, not a city.

And well to be fair, Vallyn was talking out of his arse when he said that. Unless he actually predicted the defection of three lords, the subsequent diplomatic slight by Julius and the declaration of war. His assertion was baseless.

"Diplomatic slight"? Shameless Aurvandilians...  ::)

Indeed a diplomatic slight from Aurvandilian side. I guess the change of mind of Aurvandil regarding relations with Barca would have been different if those nobles wouldn't have switched carrying their regions with them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on January 26, 2013, 09:15:08 PM
Evanburg is a townsland, not a city.

And well to be fair, Vallyn was talking out of his arse when he said that. Unless he actually predicted the defection of three lords, the subsequent diplomatic slight by Julius and the declaration of war. His assertion was baseless.

No - he just claimed that Aurvandil would not be a friend of the Moot's at the end of the day.  And I think it would be safe to say that has passed.

Of course he didn't have any proof - other than the fact that Aurvandil was formed by defecting nobles, so clearly they were traitors.  And you can't trust a traitor.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 26, 2013, 09:41:24 PM
No - he just claimed that Aurvandil would not be a friend of the Moot's at the end of the day.  And I think it would be safe to say that has passed.

Of course he didn't have any proof - other than the fact that Aurvandil was formed by defecting nobles, so clearly they were traitors.  And you can't trust a traitor.

Yea, but then again: would Madina have been a friend at the end of the day?

Madina had griefed us for too long. Yes, we may have Aurvandil to worry about now, but at least we got closure about Madninian "claims" to what was then our capital. The idea wasn't that Aurvandil would be our friend forever, but that we'd take care of them in due time as well.

I don't even remember anyone who was on the Lord's Council that wanted to take Paisly after the Capital was moved to the Tower.   Our issue was Barca, never Paisly.   And then Barca supporting Aurvandil - well, at least that turned out just like Madina said it would. . . pretty sure Vallyn flat up told the Moot that Aurvandil would betray them and keep the city.

Whether people wanted it or not, your ruler, until VERY late in the conflict (like, until you were obviously doomed and beyond saving to everyone's eyes but your own) refused to promise not to ever let such a war erupt again. There might not have been any plans, but he refused to curtail the "rights" of his nobles to "uphold their claims", and that this was not a promise a Madinian ruler could legally make. Which honestly quite undermined the later promise and pissed off some D'Harans more than anything.

And as I said above, the idea was never that Aurvandil would never betray us. We were just sick of Madina, and did not consider that Aurvandil or Madina were  our sole options for who would reside to our South.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on January 26, 2013, 10:39:03 PM
Yea, but then again: would Madina have been a friend at the end of the day?

Madina had griefed us for too long. Yes, we may have Aurvandil to worry about now, but at least we got closure about Madninian "claims" to what was then our capital. The idea wasn't that Aurvandil would be our friend forever, but that we'd take care of them in due time as well.

Whether people wanted it or not, your ruler, until VERY late in the conflict (like, until you were obviously doomed and beyond saving to everyone's eyes but your own) refused to promise not to ever let such a war erupt again. There might not have been any plans, but he refused to curtail the "rights" of his nobles to "uphold their claims", and that this was not a promise a Madinian ruler could legally make. Which honestly quite undermined the later promise and pissed off some D'Harans more than anything.

And as I said above, the idea was never that Aurvandil would never betray us. We were just sick of Madina, and did not consider that Aurvandil or Madina were  our sole options for who would reside to our South.

Oh I don't disagree - the format for Madinan Council of Lords was a pain to deal with IC.    Vallyn himself saw more value in D'Hara as a good trading partner (we needed to send all that food somewhere), but convincing some of the Lords of that matter was almost a dead end.  Especially considering the established RP's on the importance of the book of claims.    Really as Doge I was more interested in securing D'Hara and Terran as allies but the long standing animosity was obviously an issue - plus the fact you wanted food prices at a certain level and the Lord who actually *controlled* that food. . . would not change his stance.    Again - in-fighting in Madina was three quarters of our fun (and really, caused its demise unfortunately).

Major issue with being the Doge (or Lord Admiral) was that almost *all* the political power in Madina resided with the Council of Lords, the Doge was the head of the Council but had no authority to force something onto the Lords as they were all "equals".   Awesome for RP and keeping things active in the Realm - a nightmare to deal with when trying to convince one Lord to do something he didn't want to (or more so, needed to be convince IC why his stubborn character should).

Oh I know - OOC I think it was a devil you know vs devil you don't option.   For D'Hara there was no incentive to go either way and Madina failed to unify and provide a concrete reason for their long-time foe to help them.   Really expecting you to come help us *would* be unreasonable since Madina for a long time saw D'Hara as our primary foe (I mean really, you were the only people we could reasonably go after who weren't Fissoans).

I think the war was great fun ^.^  And as lead to this war, which is good times as well.   Vallyn. . .he might be a little angry with Aurvandil though :D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on January 27, 2013, 12:49:05 AM
Yea, but then again: would Madina have been a friend at the end of the day?

Madina had griefed us for too long. Yes, we may have Aurvandil to worry about now, but at least we got closure about Madninian "claims" to what was then our capital. The idea wasn't that Aurvandil would be our friend forever, but that we'd take care of them in due time as well.

Whether people wanted it or not, your ruler, until VERY late in the conflict (like, until you were obviously doomed and beyond saving to everyone's eyes but your own) refused to promise not to ever let such a war erupt again. There might not have been any plans, but he refused to curtail the "rights" of his nobles to "uphold their claims", and that this was not a promise a Madinian ruler could legally make. Which honestly quite undermined the later promise and pissed off some D'Harans more than anything.

And as I said above, the idea was never that Aurvandil would never betray us. We were just sick of Madina, and did not consider that Aurvandil or Madina were  our sole options for who would reside to our South.

As a member of the pro-Madina faction, Hireshmont argued Madina was the lesser of two evils– and certainly an impotent foe, as repeated defenses of Paisly demonstrated.

And Hireshmont is feeling very vindicated these days.

The bit about Madinian constitutional limitations was interesting though. Reason 947 why Moot realms have a preoccupation with forms of government.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on January 27, 2013, 01:11:02 AM
it was really cool to read that reply from Phellan on his experience as a government member in Madina, haha.
that was exactly what i hoped to achieve with a !@#$ed up goverment system like madinas system.

There where no laws forcing anyone to make consesion about things or work 'together' as a 'realm' (unless a state of emergency was declared, like the roman dictator the Admiral would finally become a real general and only in the situation Madina would be a real nation).
There where however laws in place that allows you to pratically kill anyone who you would have a problem with(not that it happened like that)

Seeing Madina as a realm was the bigest misunderstand of Madina i think.
It was more a nation in the sense that there lack of nation binds them and agree that this kind of feudal liberty is what is the norm for good and just.
It was almost more of a religion then something else :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on January 27, 2013, 01:25:44 AM
it was really cool to read that reply from Phellan on his experience as a government member in Madina, haha.
that was exactly what i hoped to achieve with a !@#$ed up goverment system like madinas system.

There where no laws forcing anyone to make consesion about things or work 'together' as a 'realm' (unless a state of emergency was declared, like the roman dictator the Admiral would finally become a real general and only in the situation Madina would be a real nation).
There where however laws in place that allows you to pratically kill anyone who you would have a problem with(not that it happened like that)

Seeing Madina as a realm was the bigest misunderstand of Madina i think.
It was more a nation in the sense that there lack of nation binds them and agree that this kind of feudal liberty is what is the norm for good and just.
It was almost more of a religion then something else :P

True - it was more a fight most days to get the Lords to agree to a plan, than it was to get another nation to support it.

I agree with Vellos - Madina was never a threat because it was always too busy with internal politic's and rivalries to look outside its own borders for the most part.   It had to be - we were so far from everyone else that we never had a chance to really focus on external threats (except for monsters until Tom fine tuned them down).

Most Realm politics are boring - everyone follows the Dukes or Ruler and just hobbles along as a unified group.   In Madina you had to negotiate backroom deals with Lords just to get them to agree with you in the Lords' Council.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on January 27, 2013, 04:53:12 AM
D'Hara's house of lords is quite jealous and very powerful, but we also have a history of very strong rulers, despite the move to the republic. As long as he gets some kind of support from the lords, rulers have been known to force other lords to do many things other rulers could never dream of.

As for Madina being a lesser threat... I see no reason to chose one or the other, I'd have been content to see both gone. And in due time... :P

And we "got" Madina. But there's no way to contact dukes directly. And we didn't like dealing with that kind of inept government system. :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Galvez on January 27, 2013, 03:13:54 PM
I don't even remember anyone who was on the Lord's Council that wanted to take Paisly after the Capital was moved to the Tower.   Our issue was Barca, never Paisly.   And then Barca supporting Aurvandil - well, at least that turned out just like Madina said it would. . . pretty sure Vallyn flat up told the Moot that Aurvandil would betray them and keep the city.
I remember that Vallyn and Julius couldn't get along. Something that greatly irritated Hireshmont to hear Julius speak as he did. Because Julius didn't liked Madina and Vallyn, we prevented the 'Moot to cross Barca to attack Aurvandil while we gave them Evanburg in fief. This all didn't turned out the way we hoped for, mostly because Aurvandil grew stronger than the 'Moot.

Evanburg is a townsland, not a city.

And well to be fair, Vallyn was talking out of his arse when he said that. Unless he actually predicted the defection of three lords, the subsequent diplomatic slight by Julius and the declaration of war. His assertion was baseless.
It were not the 'diplomatic slights' from Julius which caused this war. When I arrived in Candiels, I wasn't received as warmly as the first time. And from the first moment until the end of Julius and Mendicant's negotiation, Mendicant twisted Julius' words and took insult at the slightest of things. That while Julius was enduring insults after insults. It was soo clear that Mendicant had zero intention of ever handing back Barca's region, and eventually blamed my 'insults' for the war that followed. It was shameless, but I am loving the action.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on February 05, 2013, 03:39:09 AM
Terran ruler just quit the game?! Any news about that? Its sad when players leaves the game but oh well what can you do. I wonder who will take his place.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 05, 2013, 03:42:10 AM
Terran ruler just quit the game?! Any news about that? Its sad when players leaves the game but oh well what can you do. I wonder who will take his place.
Well, I should know this, but who was Terran's ruler? I barely had their banker down which is more relevant to me, and I hear their ruler is gone.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on February 05, 2013, 04:40:02 AM
Mendicant scared him away.  :-X
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 05, 2013, 07:37:37 AM
It's quite surprising to us too.

He was a very fun player with a very interesting character– I was really looking forward to seeing what he did.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on February 05, 2013, 07:50:13 AM
Well, I should know this, but who was Terran's ruler? I barely had their banker down which is more relevant to me, and I hear their ruler is gone.

That's because he was just elected like.... last week. No warning or expectation for quitting the game, either. The character was Roavan Collingwood.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 05, 2013, 04:53:56 PM
I can't imagine this will have a good affect on peace talks, Roaven actually seemed interested in them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on February 05, 2013, 06:26:22 PM
I can't imagine this will have a good affect on peace talks, Roaven actually seemed interested in them.

Perhaps the moot realizes that this is the only chance they have right now to open up there western front.
Or they will never win a war against Aurvendil ever again, because by the time Falkirk falls, Fissoa would be wise to sue for peace with Aurvendil.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 05, 2013, 06:55:09 PM
Perhaps the moot realizes that this is the only chance they have right now to open up there western front.
Or they will never win a war against Aurvendil ever again, because by the time Falkirk falls, Fissoa would be wise to sue for peace with Aurvendil.

Well, the Moot has nothing to fear from Aurvandil really. Aurvandil has had ample opportunity to war with the Veinsormoot with the intent to see it destroyed and we've pointedly refused to do so, and refused to escalate hostilities when we thought peace was attainable. Before this entire war happened, Aurvandil was going to march up north and to help Terran and Asylon, but we couldn't do so whilst Barca was threatening future wars. It was never our intention to fight D'Hara or Terran, and it still isn't.

Falkirk won't fall, I don't know what convinced you they will. You can't harm any part of them that matters, which is Madina Gardens and Madina City (which is why your war policy so far has been a disastrous failure as it involves looting their rurals which had no peasants or production anyway) Aurvandil sells them all their food, and Falkirk has what... a 14kcs mobile army plus militia, plus Aurvandilan support which if we deployed all of our forces right now, is over 30kcs mobile. Which combined is far more than what D'Hara, Fissoa and Luria Nova can combine to send against us, plus Madina Gardens and Madina City have high level fortifications. In months of war Fissoa is further from beating Falkirk than they've ever been, a single Aurvandil raid of Fissoa was more decisive and damaging than any other event in the war.

And if Falkirk does fall? Well they will just rejoin Aurvandil, and I would love to see how powerful we'd become with 90 or so nobles. The best choice for a power balance is to keep Falkirk around, particularly as Falkirk and Aurvandil hold each other in relative contempt due to Falkirk being a Freestate, and Aurvandil being a Monarchy (which, Freestatism decries as tyranny) and as mutual adversaries when it comes to knighthood and Chivalry which will inevitable lead to war just to prove whose chivalry is superior.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on February 05, 2013, 07:02:48 PM

And if Falkirk does fall? Well they will just rejoin Aurvandil, and I would love to see how powerful we'd become with 90 or so nobles. The best choice for a power balance is to keep Falkirk around, particularly as Falkirk and Aurvandil hold each other in relative contempt due to Falkirk being a Freestate, and Aurvandil being a Monarchy (which, Freestatism decries as tyranny) and as mutual adversaries when it comes to knighthood and Chivalry which will inevitable lead to war just to prove whose chivalry is superior.

I'm curious, how does a tyranny call itself a freestate? I'm fine with cognitive dissonance (after all I play a D'Haran), but this one wracks my feeble little brain.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 05, 2013, 07:06:57 PM
He meant that the Falkirkian Freestate calls Aurvandil a tyranny.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 05, 2013, 07:20:30 PM
Simple, Falkirkian Freestate are a tyranny as a government system, but they're not tyrannical in the modern interpretation of the word. I've always thought that Battlemaster tyrannies are simply self made realms under self made rulers kind of thing, with no overtones as to a "tryannical" nature as we might interpret it on an OOC level through a modern perspective on the word.

And Freestatism is juxtaposed to Monarchism, which they consider to be tyrannical in the modern sense, dictatorships basically. As Freestatism overthrew the Averothian Monarchy for much the same reasons.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 05, 2013, 07:31:09 PM
And if Falkirk does fall? Well they will just rejoin Aurvandil, and I would love to see how powerful we'd become with 90 or so nobles. The best choice for a power balance is to keep Falkirk around, particularly as Falkirk and Aurvandil hold each other in relative contempt due to Falkirk being a Freestate, and Aurvandil being a Monarchy (which, Freestatism decries as tyranny) and as mutual adversaries when it comes to knighthood and Chivalry which will inevitable lead to war just to prove whose chivalry is superior.

"We hate each other; but anytime anyone threatens either of us we always band together and pledge to welcome each others' nobles in case of defeat."

And you wonder why people lump you together....
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 05, 2013, 07:37:53 PM
Well, the Moot has nothing to fear from Aurvandil really. Aurvandil has had ample opportunity to war with the Veinsormoot with the intent to see it destroyed and we've pointedly refused to do so, and refused to escalate hostilities when we thought peace was attainable. Before this entire war happened, Aurvandil was going to march up north and to help Terran and Asylon, but we couldn't do so whilst Barca was threatening future wars. It was never our intention to fight D'Hara or Terran, and it still isn't.

It is absurd to say Barca was the reason for you to not help Terran and Asylon. It was proved that Barca could complain all it would like because of the regions you stole, but nor in diplomatic neither military way it could do anything to get them back. Did you see Barca as a threat? At this point it sounds just ridiculous. And we still have got the Provincia di Fiorenza matter. That was an awful way to prove your good intentions towards Terran and D'Hara.

Falkirk won't fall, I don't know what convinced you they will. You can't harm any part of them that matters, which is Madina Gardens and Madina City (which is why your war policy so far has been a disastrous failure as it involves looting their rurals which had no peasants or production anyway) Aurvandil sells them all their food, and Falkirk has what... a 14kcs mobile army plus militia, plus Aurvandilan support which if we deployed all of our forces right now, is over 30kcs mobile. Which combined is far more than what D'Hara, Fissoa and Luria Nova can combine to send against us, plus Madina Gardens and Madina City have high level fortifications. In months of war Fissoa is further from beating Falkirk than they've ever been, a single Aurvandil raid of Fissoa was more decisive and damaging than any other event in the war.

In "single combat" Fissoa could have beaten Falkirk. And I think you underestimate your enemy if you think a combined force of Fissoa, D'Hara and Luria Nova couldn't put you in a tight spot. Moreover, I don't think you could indefinitely support economically and in food supply Falkirk. You have already squeezed your regions and pushed the peasants to their limits, and maybe a new war declaration from Luria Nova and D'Hara could induce to a civil rebellion.

And if Falkirk does fall? Well they will just rejoin Aurvandil, and I would love to see how powerful we'd become with 90 or so nobles. The best choice for a power balance is to keep Falkirk around, particularly as Falkirk and Aurvandil hold each other in relative contempt due to Falkirk being a Freestate, and Aurvandil being a Monarchy (which, Freestatism decries as tyranny) and as mutual adversaries when it comes to knighthood and Chivalry which will inevitable lead to war just to prove whose chivalry is superior.

Maybe in a short term if Falkirk falls it would be beneficial for you. But your lands can't produce enough gold and food to maintain the army that would correspond to 90 nobles. At some point, they wouldn't just be able to pay their troops, and of course it would help to block the eventual commerce you could have with the current Falkirkian lands. They would have to start using their own family wealth and if there is actually some kind of rivalry between you, maybe they would start to be willing to return to the lands they owned although they were called in a different way and sustained a new realm.

But that's assuming too much. I don't think you will fight the Falkirkians since you have now hostile neighbours in both northern and easter fronts. Things would have to change a lot for that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 05, 2013, 07:43:11 PM
"We hate each other; but anytime anyone threatens either of us we always band together and pledge to welcome each others' nobles in case of defeat."

And you wonder why people lump you together....

Actually, this only came after people lumped together and threatened us both, and your statement pays no deference at all to the former nobles of Madina that invoked such a response from Aurvandil anyway.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on February 05, 2013, 07:46:07 PM
the Averothoi and Vandils are definatly more brother some as Fissoa and any ally.
There realms are ruled and strategy conducted in a similiar way with Aurvendil the only one to have an identity.
Thats also why your two realm cooperate the best (which will hopefully change or else having allies is still useless)

I said it and say it again that the reason falkrik is a realm has mostly to do because the players where already a group before they joined BM.
Aurvendil has finally grown in a real realm with indentity and diferent kind of families form different backgrounds, quite alot also report its fun playing there.
Falkirk on the other hand still mostly is those same few players.

I would actually look forth to see those nobles integrate in Aurvendil, perhaps that would give them some more character.
I am still puzzled why they actually all should join Aurvendil and not leave the continent all together.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on February 05, 2013, 07:49:09 PM
Actually, this only came after people lumped together and threatened us both, and your statement pays no deference at all to the former nobles of Madina that invoked such a response from Aurvandil anyway.

What did you suspect that those nobles weren't out to defeat aurvendil after it suceeded in the way it did?
Not that i am a fan of 'friendly' successions, yours defiantly wasn't one, nor even came close to being one.
If those nobles hated you enough, your realm would in fact have been destroyed the first moment they retook Candiels, instead they where so stupid not to loot Candiels to the ground, instead they tried to do no damage at all.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 05, 2013, 07:53:32 PM
It is absurd to say Barca was the reason for you to not help Terran and Asylon. It was proved that Barca could complain all it would like because of the regions you stole, but nor in diplomatic neither military way it could do anything to get them back. Did you see Barca as a threat? At this point it sounds just ridiculous. And we still have got the Provincia di Fiorenza matter. That was an awful way to prove your good intentions towards Terran and D'Hara.

Barca threatened future war and hostile actions against Aurvandil, whilst insulting the High Sovereign and telling Aurvandil we owed our existence to them and we should do as they say on that basis, yeah that didn't go down well. You can call it absurd, but Aurvandil likes to be SMA about diplomacy, and insulting and threatening a monarch is not something that would have been tolerated by a foreign realm.

In "single combat" Fissoa could have beaten Falkirk. And I think you underestimate your enemy if you think a combined force of Fissoa, D'Hara and Luria Nova couldn't put you in a tight spot. Moreover, I don't think you could indefinitely support economically and in food supply Falkirk. You have already squeezed your regions and pushed the peasants to their limits, and maybe a new war declaration from Luria Nova and D'Hara could induce to a civil rebellion.

If they could have beaten Falkirk, they would have, but as you have seen Falkirk consistently destroyed and defeated the Fissoan army in the field more than five times. The Fissoan armies were being consecutively destroyed by Falkirk every time they marched over.  Oh I'm sure they could put us in a tight spot, but we know our !@#$ when it comes to war. Falkirk especially, as they are all veterans of the League of Free Nations and the continent wide war, they've shown they can take down bigger, stronger enemies despite being in a tight spot.

And civil rebellion? I doubt it, not now that Aurvandil has a lot of diplomats, courtiers, priests and indigenous religion, plus enough nobles that allow us to police and work on our regions whilst still being able to send over 50 nobles on campaign.

Maybe in a short term if Falkirk falls it would be beneficial for you. But your lands can't produce enough gold and food to maintain the army that would correspond to 90 nobles. At some point, they wouldn't just be able to pay their troops, and of course it would help to block the eventual commerce you could have with the current Falkirkian lands. They would have to start using their own family wealth and if there is actually some kind of rivalry between you, maybe they would start to be willing to return to the lands they owned although they were called in a different way and sustained a new realm.

You underestimate what Aurvandil can do on  a limited budget, and food? We're rolling in a surplus of thousands even after supplying the Freestate, we won't be short on food at any point due to maintaining an army, and we don't recruit to the maximum at all times, we reserve the bulk of recruitment before we go on campaign so our forces aren't sitting in the capital eating gold and food needlessly.

And the Falkirkian's are professionals, that means we can put aside our personal rivalries when our duty/honour/mutual causes call for it. Plus, Aurvandil would re-found them a realm anyway, Mendicant doesn't like the Averothoi, he respects them, but he doesn't like them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 05, 2013, 08:01:01 PM
the Averothoi and Vandils are definatly more brother some as Fissoa and any ally.
There realms are ruled and strategy conducted in a similiar way with Aurvendil the only one to have an identity.
Thats also why your two realm cooperate the best (which will hopefully change or else having allies is still useless)

I said it and say it again that the reason falkrik is a realm has mostly to do because the players where already a group before they joined BM.
Aurvendil has finally grown in a real realm with indentity and diferent kind of families form different backgrounds, quite alot also report its fun playing there.
Falkirk on the other hand still mostly is those same few players.

I would actually look forth to see those nobles integrate in Aurvendil, perhaps that would give them some more character.
I am still puzzled why they actually all should join Aurvendil and not leave the continent all together.

Falkirk is made up of the Averothoi, who came to Aurvandil over a fairly extensive period during the Madinian war.

Dwilight has the best prospects for founding  a new realm, and it's the home of the Averothoi, so they wouldn't leave to a different continent that wouldn't make any IC or OOC sense, and it'd be far harder to orchestrate, not that foreign continents take very kindly to anyone even remotely related to Averoth being together from what I've heard anyway.

Plus, Aurvandil is made up partly of nobles and government who tried to support Averoth and Caerwyn, so really Aurvandil was one of the few realms they could join.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on February 05, 2013, 08:43:32 PM

If they could have beaten Falkirk, they would have, but as you have seen Falkirk consistently destroyed and defeated the Fissoan army in the field more than five times. The Fissoan armies were being consecutively destroyed by Falkirk every time they marched over.  Oh I'm sure they could put us in a tight spot, but we know our !@#$ when it comes to war. Falkirk especially, as they are all veterans of the League of Free Nations and the continent wide war, they've shown they can take down bigger, stronger enemies despite being in a tight spot.


Without Aurvandil's intervention, Falkirk would be on it's deathbed already - they hardly "destroyed" the armies of Fissoa.   Each time Fissoa refitted it's mobile strength grew, while Falkirk's weakened.   That is not a good sign when fighting a prolonged war of attrition.    A quick look at the last two months comparing both Realms effective CS shows the attrition war was being lost by Falkirk.

As for a tight spot -  well executed pillaging and burning raids to ruin the food production and stores of Aurvandil over the course of a few months would likely result in wide spread starvation - you'd need to pick either your cities or food producing regions to feed.  Leaving you short either on food or gold as a result - which either way ruin your ability to wage war.

After that it's a waiting game till the internal economy of Aurvandil collapses and it's regions rebel.

The destruction of Aurvandil is possible through the destruction of its outer regions - which the Moot has easy access to should they bother to actually war. 
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 05, 2013, 09:12:21 PM
Barca threatened future war and hostile actions against Aurvandil, whilst insulting the High Sovereign and telling Aurvandil we owed our existence to them and we should do as they say on that basis, yeah that didn't go down well. You can call it absurd, but Aurvandil likes to be SMA about diplomacy, and insulting and threatening a monarch is not something that would have been tolerated by a foreign realm.

I'd really like to see those conversations, from Julius' point of view Mendicant was rather trying to turn every word he said as an insult, while talking to him with disdainful manners. Since you confirmed some time ago your OOC intention to keep the regions on your side, I guess you was just trying to force a situation that allowed you to act feeling insulted. So, you would be able to say "you've insulted the High Sovereing, and failed diplomatically in your attempt to have back your regions", rather than "we're going to keep these regions because our army is much stronger, so don't even try".

It's already a recurrent topic but I think it's not very "SMA about diplomacy" to offer a realm peace and then put a puppet state in its lands. As it isn't either to raid the lands of other realm to help your allies and then offering peace.

Someone who is consequent with his own actions don't do such thing. It can be interpreted as an attempt to have some guarantees that war won't come from that side whilst you don't start it, or just a way to keep civil population calm. If you raid an enemy's lands, or interfere in its politics, what kind of non-imposed peace could you expect?

You've mentioned SMA and also your recently founded indigenous religion, and in my humble opinion a religion called "Cult of Reason" sounds rather a late 18th century philosophical current than a medieval-looking religion. Things like that could make other players think that it's been founded in order to keep the peasants tied to their lords and fight the spreading of other religions, included the Orthodox Astroism. I insist, it's just my opinion.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on February 06, 2013, 01:37:04 AM
I'd really like to see those conversations, from Julius' point of view Mendicant was rather trying to turn every word he said as an insult, while talking to him with disdainful manners. Since you confirmed some time ago your OOC intention to keep the regions on your side, I guess you was just trying to force a situation that allowed you to act feeling insulted. So, you would be able to say "you've insulted the High Sovereing, and failed diplomatically in your attempt to have back your regions", rather than "we're going to keep these regions because our army is much stronger, so don't even try".

It's already a recurrent topic but I think it's not very "SMA about diplomacy" to offer a realm peace and then put a puppet state in its lands. As it isn't either to raid the lands of other realm to help your allies and then offering peace.

A mendicant is a beggar. It is very ironic that the character, Mendicant, is rather arrogant and imperious. If you slavishly bow and kiss his feet, he will nonchalantly give you what you wish. If you try -- at all -- to stand head to head with him, he will demonstrate his superiority by cowing you into submission. I'm not privy to what went on between Mendicant and Julius, but I wouldn't be surprised if Julius refused to submit to Mendicant; that unwilling to sacrifice his dignity, he attempted some form (however timid) of posturing instead. In this light, Mendicant's actions make perfect sense -- although, this is all postulation, perhaps I've read him entirely wrong.

Quote
You've mentioned SMA and also your recently founded indigenous religion, and in my humble opinion a religion called "Cult of Reason" sounds rather a late 18th century philosophical current than a medieval-looking religion. Things like that could make other players think that it's been founded in order to keep the peasants tied to their lords and fight the spreading of other religions, included the Orthodox Astroism. I insist, it's just my opinion.

"Cult" makes it sound antiquated, however "reason" brings to mind the age of reason, which is more modern. So it does sound odd. I'm not familiar with it's tenets though, so I will not judge. For all I know, it' could be very clever.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on February 06, 2013, 02:52:54 AM
Do you know the definition of cult? The word was first used in the 17th century its hardly antiquated... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on February 06, 2013, 02:58:09 AM
For some reason 'cult' makes me think of something primitive and ancient. Maybe it's from reading C'thulu stuff...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 06, 2013, 03:12:04 AM
Do you know the definition of cult? The word was first used in the 17th century its hardly antiquated...
Are you trying to say that the word doesn't fit with SMA, because the game targets things no later than, what, the 1300's?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on February 06, 2013, 03:16:14 AM
Are you trying to say that the word doesn't fit with SMA, because the game targets things no later than, what, the 1300's?

No specific date, for if I remember correctly, some aspects of BM fit better with the 900s, whereas many others fit better with the late 1500s.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on February 06, 2013, 03:21:27 AM
Simple, Falkirkian Freestate are a tyranny as a government system, but they're not tyrannical in the modern interpretation of the word. I've always thought that Battlemaster tyrannies are simply self made realms under self made rulers kind of thing, with no overtones as to a "tryannical" nature as we might interpret it on an OOC level through a modern perspective on the word.

And Freestatism is juxtaposed to Monarchism, which they consider to be tyrannical in the modern sense, dictatorships basically. As Freestatism overthrew the Averothian Monarchy for much the same reasons.

Okay, I think I follow. Thanks for the explanation!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 06, 2013, 03:50:56 AM
No specific date, for if I remember correctly, some aspects of BM fit better with the 900s, whereas many others fit better with the late 1500s.
700-1300, I think, is the semi-official guideline. It's on the wiki somewhere...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 06, 2013, 04:04:46 AM
A mendicant is a beggar. It is very ironic that the character, Mendicant, is rather arrogant and imperious. If you slavishly bow and kiss his feet, he will nonchalantly give you what you wish. If you try -- at all -- to stand head to head with him, he will demonstrate his superiority by cowing you into submission. I'm not privy to what went on between Mendicant and Julius, but I wouldn't be surprised if Julius refused to submit to Mendicant; that unwilling to sacrifice his dignity, he attempted some form (however timid) of posturing instead. In this light, Mendicant's actions make perfect sense -- although, this is all postulation, perhaps I've read him entirely wrong.

"Cult" makes it sound antiquated, however "reason" brings to mind the age of reason, which is more modern. So it does sound odd. I'm not familiar with it's tenets though, so I will not judge. For all I know, it' could be very clever.
From what I have heard about the Galvez family with diplomacy, it was likely that and more and I don't really doubt the insults or whatever else Noblesse claims related to negotiations with Barca oringinally.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on February 06, 2013, 04:06:11 AM
Are you trying to say that the word doesn't fit with SMA, because the game targets things no later than, what, the 1300's?

Well, the definition of the word 'cult' was coined in the 17th century but I think we can agree that cults have existed since antiquity. I think you could classify the Knights Templar as  a type of cult or there appears to be a 'cult of saints' etc in medieval times, plus the people who used to whip themselves, there are many medieval cults.

"deriving their inspiration from outside of the predominant religious culture" Mainstream culture is SA.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on February 06, 2013, 05:14:39 AM
Do you know the definition of cult? The word was first used in the 17th century its hardly antiquated... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

1600 is most definitely antiquated. Unless you wish to continue to march around with a flintlock.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on February 06, 2013, 05:21:38 AM
I went goat hunting on a small island in the Pacific once with this Aboriginal guy and he had a homemade flintlock, we were climbing jungle cliffs hacking through super dense jungle, like 3ft every 15 -20 minutes, the foilage was so dense we just sat on the trees and grass and roots on the side of the mountain and ate the inside of some betel palm that tasted like raw bamboo. Well anyways we didnt find any goats and ended up shooting trees in a small valley at the base of the mountain.flintlocks are loud!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 06, 2013, 07:27:04 AM
"Cultus" is used in Latin to refer to care for temples.

I rather doubt it's really a 17th century origin– maybe a 17th century entry into mainstream English usage... but many words don't enter written English usage until 15th, 16th century... because Latin was still a major written language before that. Why would religious vocab associated with high liturgy be translated into English?

/nerdiness
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Nosferatus on February 06, 2013, 07:42:26 AM
I went goat hunting on a small island in the Pacific once with this Aboriginal guy and he had a homemade flintlock, we were climbing jungle cliffs hacking through super dense jungle, like 3ft every 15 -20 minutes, the foilage was so dense we just sat on the trees and grass and roots on the side of the mountain and ate the inside of some betel palm that tasted like raw bamboo. Well anyways we didnt find any goats and ended up shooting trees in a small valley at the base of the mountain.flintlocks are loud!

Hunting goats?
Isnt that someones cattle usually? :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on February 06, 2013, 10:25:27 AM
"Cult" makes it sound antiquated, however "reason" brings to mind the age of reason, which is more modern. So it does sound odd. I'm not familiar with it's tenets though, so I will not judge. For all I know, it' could be very clever.

In the real world, the Cult of Reason is the atheist system that briefly replaced catholicism in the period ramping up to the Terreur in the French Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_reason

If that's the historical reference, then it's not SMA, but I haven't seen anything about the in-game religion except its name, so I'll withhold judgement. There are no wiki pages for the new religion, or have I not looked in the right places?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on February 06, 2013, 11:48:21 AM
In the real world, the Cult of Reason is the atheist system that briefly replaced catholicism in the period ramping up to the Terreur in the French Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_reason

If that's the historical reference, then it's not SMA, but I haven't seen anything about the in-game religion except its name, so I'll withhold judgement. There are no wiki pages for the new religion, or have I not looked in the right places?

This is what I assumed it was mimicking. Obviously not SMA. But nothing about Aurvandil is SMA and nothing happens about it, so whatever.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on February 06, 2013, 12:39:08 PM
Hunting goats?
Isnt that someones cattle usually? :P

Goat hunting, the next big thing after cow trapping.  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on February 06, 2013, 01:37:26 PM
This is what I assumed it was mimicking. Obviously not SMA. But nothing about Aurvandil is SMA and nothing happens about it, so whatever.

For the 9,731st time, for anything to "happen about it," someone needs to officially report it.

The Titans do not troll through the game looking for SMA violations.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 09, 2013, 04:20:11 AM
So I don't remember if this is the thread Vellos said it was super easy to become elder of the moot if you are in Terran, and its pathetic because he is right. Terran is lacking an elder even now.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 09, 2013, 10:16:35 AM
So I don't remember if this is the thread Vellos said it was super easy to become elder of the moot if you are in Terran, and its pathetic because he is right. Terran is lacking an elder even now.

Yup.

We'll get to it eventually.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Astinus on February 09, 2013, 01:23:25 PM
The whole "honourable noble" thing where almost every character is a knight in a shiny armor who  always put his honour in front of everything is much more a modern era idealization rather than an actual medieval representation.

In bm people tend to forget that for the most part, knights was just a little more than bandits with horses and steel.


The Aurvandil's "Noblesse Oblige" doesn't seem less historical accurate than the usual way noble characters are played in bm so unless you want to fully reform the way the game is played I don't think it could be considered a SMA violation


Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 09, 2013, 03:49:06 PM
The whole "honourable noble" thing where almost every character is a knight in a shiny armor who  always put his honour in front of everything is much more a modern era idealization rather than an actual medieval representation.

In bm people tend to forget that for the most part, knights was just a little more than bandits with horses and steel.


The Aurvandil's "Noblesse Oblige" doesn't seem less historical accurate than the usual way noble characters are played in bm so unless you want to fully reform the way the game is played I don't think it could be considered a SMA violation

I don't think it's been discussed if the supposed honourable manners of the Aurvandilians are accurate to a SMA, they probably are. Maybe it's been discussed if the "honourable noble" thing fits to the way they've performed very often, IC.

I think this debate about SMA in Aurvandil has arisen related to the Cult of Reason, but I wouldn't call it a violation of the SMA. I don't know if the idea for that religion was taken from the reference quoted by Perth, but anyway secularism wasn't a quite definitive characteristic in medieval times.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on February 09, 2013, 03:51:35 PM
How do people act in reallife is probably very close to how they operate in medieval times, except nobles are the old school baby boomer bitchy guy that is your supervisor in industrial and is a prick snd treats you like !@#$.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 09, 2013, 03:57:14 PM
The whole "honourable noble" thing where almost every character is a knight in a shiny armor who  always put his honour in front of everything is much more a modern era idealization rather than an actual medieval representation.

In bm people tend to forget that for the most part, knights was just a little more than bandits with horses and steel.

That is entirely wrong, go read some of the Chivalry prose written from the 12th century to the fourteenth or even fifteenth. Or even research the Chivalric orders, such as the Order of the Garter or the Order of the Star, both of which produced their own written codes of chivalry to instruct knights on how to conduct themselves.

It's a more modern view that knights were simply men in flashy armour who were little better than bandits, as those who did so were reviled and outright punished in Medieval Europe.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 09, 2013, 03:59:38 PM
For everyone clamouring over the Cult of Reason.

Calm down, it's just a name.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on February 09, 2013, 04:02:49 PM
No, seriously, it's just a name—the religion has no content and nearly no members.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 09, 2013, 04:18:11 PM
I guess some people will just have to wait until they can try and deride it as un SMA.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 09, 2013, 04:25:35 PM
Is it just a name? Thanks God, I couldn't barely sleep with that on mind!  :D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 09, 2013, 05:12:13 PM
That is entirely wrong, go read some of the Chivalry prose written from the 12th century to the fourteenth or even fifteenth. Or even research the Chivalric orders, such as the Order of the Garter or the Order of the Star, both of which produced their own written codes of chivalry to instruct knights on how to conduct themselves.

It's a more modern view that knights were simply men in flashy armour who were little better than bandits, as those who did so were reviled and outright punished in Medieval Europe.
+1. Honor and largess were key things that differentiated rich peasants and actual nobility.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 09, 2013, 06:55:22 PM
Um, no.

Noctus prima kids.

Knights were serial rapists too.

It's not called "raping and burning" for idle reasons.

Codes of Chivalry were drafted as prescriptive correctives to a problem– not as descriptive accounts of behavior. Now, certainly many knights did try to aspire to such things. But it's tough to rule the peasants without raping and mauling some here or there.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Hroppa on February 09, 2013, 07:35:54 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

Primae Noctis was a myth, first mentioned in the 16th century.

The idea of the chivalrous knight is one with complex origins. One explanation for it is that the church tried to promote a moral code for warriors from the 10th century onwards, because so many knights (or at least mounted soldiers) were killing and robbing people (most relevantly, church people). The notion of chivalry itself with more specific connotations originated in the chivalric literature NoblesseChevaleresque mentions.

Basically, the idea of what a knight was changed dramatically over the medieval period, as did their actual activities and attributes (up to and including the degree to which you could say what we call knights existed), so it's easy to pick and choose examples to support most generalisations you could make.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on February 09, 2013, 08:57:37 PM
What about the knights in white satin?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Marlboro on February 09, 2013, 10:20:25 PM
With no one able to call them out on it though I'm damn sure they all saw themselves as knights in shining armor. Anyone who disagreed got to face off against the medieval equivalent of a main battle tank. Unless they were higher nobility, in which case the knight would just sit out the next big battle in the shade.

Bad people think they're great. Rich bad people with absolute power KNOW they're great.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on February 09, 2013, 11:04:46 PM
Bad people think they're great. Rich bad people with absolute power KNOW they're great.

+1

Human nature truth ftw.

We can quote all the books we want  - people are corrupt and even modern day armies (or politicians/power groups) mistreat and abuse people.  And "human rights" have really only been around for the last 50 or 60 years (and even the nations that "signed" onto them . . ignore them when its convenient).  Prior to that they were laws meant to empower certain groups or classes of people.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on February 09, 2013, 11:27:31 PM
Nobles: people who dressed well yet were still infested with the same fleas, ticks and mites as the peasants.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 09, 2013, 11:54:10 PM
Nobles: people who dressed well yet were still infested with the same fleas, ticks and mites as the peasants.
Pretty much.
+1

Human nature truth ftw.

We can quote all the books we want  - people are corrupt and even modern day armies (or politicians/power groups) mistreat and abuse people.  And "human rights" have really only been around for the last 50 or 60 years (and even the nations that "signed" onto them . . ignore them when its convenient).  Prior to that they were laws meant to empower certain groups or classes of people.
I disagree with the words used by Marlboro. Everybody generally sees himself or herself as a good person, or in the right, its society that determines if they are though.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on February 10, 2013, 12:05:43 AM
Pretty much. I disagree with the words used by Marlboro. Everybody generally sees himself or herself as a good person, or in the right, its society that determines if they are though.

And like people, society tends to view itself as being in the "right" when compared to others.   So who judges societies?  Those societies that follow usually I suppose. . .
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 10, 2013, 12:43:50 AM
So who judges societies?  Those societies that follow usually I suppose. . .
Yeah. But this discussion does not belong in this thread.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on February 10, 2013, 08:42:04 PM
Yeah. But this discussion does not belong in this thread.

Back to why we should wipe out the Vandils and their ilk!

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 10, 2013, 10:42:52 PM
Back to why we should wipe out the Vandils and their ilk!
+1. Cracks me up how the Vandals have so many different names people call them, except the one they actually want to be called no one ever does. Terran seems to not really care about the war though so that sucks.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 10, 2013, 11:10:18 PM
They want to be called Orvandeaux, don't they? That's the name Hireshmont usually uses.

And I don't know what you mean about Terran not caring. It's hard to do anything when neither of your allies are willing to help and you don't share a border. What's the point in invading Aurvandil if it's just going to lead to your allies bitching at you about endangering them, and if your allies aren't willing to take any regions?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 11, 2013, 01:56:29 AM
You know, now this is just a thought, but if you're not actually intending to fight you ought to make peace because all this continuation of an endless war does is galvanise the opinion in Aurvandil that the Veinsormoot will not accept peace by any means, by any concessions or agreement, and that leaves only violence as a resort.

Terran's demand that we pay them three thousand gold just to open up peace talks exacerbating what is now becoming a prevalent opinion in Aurvandil,  and whilst Mendicant doesn't want to fight the Veinsormoot, nor even weaken them or to destroy any realm in the Veinsormoot, he won't be ruler for much longer if the Veinsormoot continues to spurn peace talks and he continues to refuse to launch military campaigns on the Veinsormoot.

If you're just going to uphold an endless war that you have no intention of either ending, or fighting, then Aurvandil is going to lash out because the current state of mass war is bad for internal affairs (Though, it has allowed Mendicant to get away with a lot of stuff that previously would have gotten him deposed, like Orthodox Astroism and Cult of Reason, or actually signing an alliance and with the Freestate no less) we don't want to keep fighting, and we don't want to be forced into a climate of constant hostility with our neighbours, which if they won't accept peace leaves their complete capitulation or destruction.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 11, 2013, 02:03:22 AM
You know, now this is just a thought, but if you're not actually intending to fight you ought to make peace because all this continuation of an endless war does is galvanise the opinion in Aurvandil that the Veinsormoot will not accept peace by any means, by any concessions or agreement, and that leaves only violence as a resort.

Terran's demand that we pay them three thousand gold just to open up peace talks exacerbating what is now becoming a prevalent opinion in Aurvandil,  and whilst Mendicant doesn't want to fight the Veinsormoot, nor even weaken them or to destroy any realm in the Veinsormoot, he won't be ruler for much longer if the Veinsormoot continues to spurn peace talks and he continues to refuse to launch military campaigns on the Veinsormoot.

If you're just going to uphold an endless war that you have no intention of either ending, or fighting, then Aurvandil is going to lash out because the current state of mass war is bad for internal affairs (Though, it has allowed Mendicant to get away with a lot of stuff that previously would have gotten him deposed, like Orthodox Astroism and Cult of Reason, or actually signing an alliance and with the Freestate no less) we don't want to keep fighting, and we don't want to be forced into a climate of constant hostility with our neighbours, which if they won't accept peace leaves their complete capitulation or destruction.

1. You hold three regions, we asked for 3,000 gold. Sounds fair.

2. How again is anything you just said supposed to convince us peace is a good idea?

"If I don't burn you to the ground soon, my people will revolt against me."

Sounds like you're dangerous neighbors, and we shouldn't be doing anything to ease up on you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 11, 2013, 02:12:02 AM
1. You hold three regions, we asked for 3,000 gold. Sounds fair.

2. How again is anything you just said supposed to convince us peace is a good idea?

"If I don't burn you to the ground soon, my people will revolt against me."

Sounds like you're dangerous neighbors, and we shouldn't be doing anything to ease up on you.


I am not sure how you convinced yourself that it's a case of I have to burn you down, or Mendicant gets deposed, but whatever. It's a case of Mendicant gets peace, or he burns you down, or he gets kicked out and is replaced by some one who will. Mendicant wants the former, which is preferable to getting kicked out or extensive warfare over the coming months against the Veinsormoot, which would be the end result of him being deposed anyway. As for dangerous neighbours, well that's a fascinating outlook but somewhat contradicted by the like five attempts at peace Mendicant's made, his refusal to wage war and his refusal to have both D'Hara and Barca taken down when they were starving and held maybe five regions between them. Yeah that's pretty dangerous, it's almost like Aurvandil genuinely doesn't want to fight you or destroy you.

You want the three regions? Try having Barca ask for them, Mendicant might be more inclined to listen. Demanding gold just to open peace talks is a sure fire way to kill any chance of peace stone dead.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 11, 2013, 02:28:26 AM
Peace is boring. More war!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 11, 2013, 02:41:15 AM

I am not sure how you convinced yourself that it's a case of I have to burn you down, or Mendicant gets deposed, but whatever. It's a case of Mendicant gets peace, or he burns you down, or he gets kicked out and is replaced by some one who will. Mendicant wants the former, which is preferable to getting kicked out or extensive warfare over the coming months against the Veinsormoot, which would be the end result of him being deposed anyway. As for dangerous neighbours, well that's a fascinating outlook but somewhat contradicted by the like five attempts at peace Mendicant's made, his refusal to wage war and his refusal to have both D'Hara and Barca taken down when they were starving and held maybe five regions between them. Yeah that's pretty dangerous, it's almost like Aurvandil genuinely doesn't want to fight you or destroy you.

You want the three regions? Try having Barca ask for them, Mendicant might be more inclined to listen. Demanding gold just to open peace talks is a sure fire way to kill any chance of peace stone dead.

A hyperviolent ruler who wants to burn down the Véinsørmoot, but who isn't named Mendicant, is better than a peaceful Mendicant, frankly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 11, 2013, 02:42:39 AM
A hyperviolent ruler who wants to burn down the Véinsørmoot, but who isn't named Mendicant, is better than a peaceful Mendicant, frankly.

That explains a lot.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 11, 2013, 02:43:31 AM
Peace is boring. More war!

Get Astrum to fight a war?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 11, 2013, 04:46:34 AM
Sounds good to me. I was hoping we'd get a good Astrum/Iashalur vs. Farronite/Asylon war going. Unfortunately the Farronites decided to rethink their position on preaching. Looks like no war there, for now. Maybe eventually the rulers will get tired of Asylon's interference, and declare war. It would be interesting to see how good these various realms are at waging war after so much peace. I have a feeling we'd all suck at it. Meh... my character is a priest, and probably won't go back to being a warrior any time soon, if ever.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on February 11, 2013, 04:59:58 AM
A lot of Farronite regions are protesting the Asylon war, but the FR government's still trying to salvage the alliance.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on February 11, 2013, 05:03:40 AM
A lot of Farronite regions are protesting the Asylon war, but the FR government's still trying to salvage the alliance.

Does this make any sense?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 11, 2013, 05:04:39 AM
A lot of Farronite regions are protesting the Asylon war, but the FR government's still trying to salvage the alliance.
Protesting the Asylon war? Do you mean the Asylon alliance?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 11, 2013, 08:29:34 AM
You know, now this is just a thought, but if you're not actually intending to fight you ought to make peace because all this continuation of an endless war does is galvanise the opinion in Aurvandil that the Veinsormoot will not accept peace by any means, by any concessions or agreement, and that leaves only violence as a resort.

Terran's demand that we pay them three thousand gold just to open up peace talks exacerbating what is now becoming a prevalent opinion in Aurvandil,  and whilst Mendicant doesn't want to fight the Veinsormoot, nor even weaken them or to destroy any realm in the Veinsormoot, he won't be ruler for much longer if the Veinsormoot continues to spurn peace talks and he continues to refuse to launch military campaigns on the Veinsormoot.

If you're just going to uphold an endless war that you have no intention of either ending, or fighting, then Aurvandil is going to lash out because the current state of mass war is bad for internal affairs (Though, it has allowed Mendicant to get away with a lot of stuff that previously would have gotten him deposed, like Orthodox Astroism and Cult of Reason, or actually signing an alliance and with the Freestate no less) we don't want to keep fighting, and we don't want to be forced into a climate of constant hostility with our neighbours, which if they won't accept peace leaves their complete capitulation or destruction.
This is what I am talking about. Barca has been reclaiming regions, D'hara has constantly been fighting-previously LN, now Falkirik, and Terran occasionally has an army sit in Paisland. If the complaint is TO's then your not talking to anybody or at least not more than one person. Barca obviously cares about getting land and I don't know where you get the idea D'hara doesn't care. I have considered sending Terran military advice, some of which I know is good because its obvious just not apparent, but not because I don't actually see Terran doing anything anymore.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on February 11, 2013, 01:01:16 PM
+1. Cracks me up how the Vandals have so many different names people call them, except the one they actually want to be called no one ever does. Terran seems to not really care about the war though so that sucks.

I can just picture a D'Haran and a Fissoan arguing.
"Vandals!"
"Saxons!"
"Vandals!"
"Saxons!"

They want to be called Orvandeaux, don't they? That's the name Hireshmont usually uses.

And I don't know what you mean about Terran not caring. It's hard to do anything when neither of your allies are willing to help and you don't share a border. What's the point in invading Aurvandil if it's just going to lead to your allies bitching at you about endangering them, and if your allies aren't willing to take any regions?

No, that would be Aurvandil. I honestly have no idea what the Falkirkians want to be called.

They're all orvando-saxons anyways.  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 11, 2013, 06:56:02 PM
You want the three regions? Try having Barca ask for them, Mendicant might be more inclined to listen. Demanding gold just to open peace talks is a sure fire way to kill any chance of peace stone dead.

It's been all an awful misunderstanding, it seems Barca forgot to ask for them before the declaration of war. Would Mendicant get deposed  by their servants for not sending them to destroy the enemy realms, but they would be willing to give back these regions? Mendicant can pretend to be "more inclined to listen", but what does it mean?

Maybe last time he was inclined to listen while being absolutely sure he would keep them. What Barca got was time wasted in useless negotiations and an enemy army at the gates of the capital. I'm more inclined to think that the only peace talks will start by the renounce of Barca to the stolen regions. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on February 11, 2013, 07:10:38 PM
I'm more inclined to think that the only peace talks will start by the renounce of Barca to the stolen regions. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, I'm sure adding on an offer of yearly tribute would really get you guys moving towards peace.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 11, 2013, 08:47:44 PM
Actually, I'm sure adding on an offer of yearly tribute would really get you guys moving towards peace.

Maybe we could send 30 virgins as well.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on February 11, 2013, 09:50:29 PM
Maybe we could send 30 virgins as well.

Aurvandil needs more than 30 virgins, we almost got 70 nobles, and some of us prefer more than one.  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 11, 2013, 10:12:49 PM
Apparently you have none left in Aurvandil, eh?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on February 11, 2013, 11:20:20 PM
In yo face Aurvandiil!!!!!! Boooyeah Indirik all up in yo face beeeeyarches!!!!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on February 11, 2013, 11:35:39 PM
Once we deaurvandilize all yo virgins our mission will be done.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on February 12, 2013, 01:41:24 AM
Aurvirgindal... 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on February 12, 2013, 11:27:02 AM
Aurvandil demanding virgins? No young boy is safe!

:p
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 12, 2013, 08:09:06 PM
Aurvandil demanding virgins? No young boy is safe!

:p

+1
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on February 23, 2013, 10:35:42 PM
The Western Theatre of the War has gone hot again with Aurvandil now trying to TO Twainville.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on February 23, 2013, 11:10:44 PM
Meanwhile, Falkirk's down to 3 regions.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 23, 2013, 11:23:31 PM
If Falkirk can't even defend themselves then they deserve to be conquered.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 24, 2013, 01:07:32 AM
Meanwhile, Falkirk's down to 3 regions.

Aye.

And I'll wager that Aurvandil has talked to the Zuma and found a way to ensure their non-involvement.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on February 24, 2013, 01:23:14 AM
Aye.

And I'll wager that Aurvandil has talked to the Zuma and found a way to ensure their non-involvement.

As would I.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 24, 2013, 01:24:58 AM
dun dun dun...

And Twainwood changes allegiance to Aurvandil. The reason remains unclear...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on February 24, 2013, 01:28:54 AM
dun dun dun...

And Twainwood changes allegiance to Aurvandil. The reason remains unclear...

Barcan lords love defecting to Aurvandil it seems...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 24, 2013, 01:31:12 AM
Barcan lords love defecting to Aurvandil it seems...
he was probably just tired of being on the losing side, so was like, !@#$ it I might as well join Aurvandil.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 24, 2013, 01:32:05 AM
he was probably just tired of being on the losing side, so was like, !@#$ it I might as well join Aurvandil.

I'm curious to find out what the story is.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 24, 2013, 01:48:38 AM
The story is probably as Penchant says. He wasn't a specially involved player in the realm, but he had been in the realm for long time and got to become Vice-Marshal. Fighting for the survival of a realm is much harder than joining a powerful and overcrowded one and just follow orders from the top. Cowards need to have plenty of fellows around to keep on fighting. At least this time we won't hear any stupidity about "Barcan corruption".

About the Zuma, it's been a while Mendicant said in the forum he had talked with Haktoo to exploit the holes in the pact within Barca and the Zuma Coalition. Seen Falkirk is in its last hours he probably wants to just dissolve Barca before we can mean a significant support to our allies. Well played, and another demonstration of how absurd is hearing talking about honour in battle, chévalerie and such from Aurvandilians.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 24, 2013, 01:48:58 AM
Maybe he was just bored of the endless war?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 24, 2013, 01:52:51 AM
Sure mate, he was sooo tired... of fighting against monsters over and over again. In the best of cases he just didn't want to lose his privileges as lord of a region before the takeover succeed, even that meaning to join the enemy and betray the companions who trusted on him.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 24, 2013, 01:56:17 AM
Well, he actually messaged me before Aurvandil arrived in Twainwood about defecting.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 24, 2013, 01:59:29 AM
How nice... taking under your protective cape all traitors of Dwilight. That's most humanistic. I'm curious to know a little bit about that. Was he a spy or did just suddenly noticed he wanted to be an Aurvandilian after he was elected as Senator of a region and appointed as Vice-Marshal?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on February 24, 2013, 02:07:56 AM
"once a traitor, always a traitor."--Dune
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 24, 2013, 02:14:37 AM
Quote
Orders from Lychaon Abdheran   (31 minutes ago)

Message sent to: Eachann Fohl
Sir Eachann,

After all this time fighting within us, is that your sense of loyalty to our realm? Is to keep your region and privileges more important to you than honour? Or has it all been a finely performed farce of an Aurvandilian spy? Our Boetarch and me have trusted you as Vice-Marshal of the Sacred Legion of Maroccia, and our Senate has given you the government of Twainwood; is that how you pay the Republic of Barca in exchange?

Now you have decided your path,  show what you are!
Lychaon Abdheran
Senator of Nark
Marshal of Sacred Legion of Maroccia
____________________________

Letter from Eachann Fohl   (5 minutes ago)

Marshal Lychaon,

I have never liked you and I probably never will. After all the time I have fought for Barca, I came to realize that Barca was not worth to fight for.

I joined Aurvandil on a whim. They crushed my plans, so I thought that I might as well join up with them as we shared goal. So no, I am not a spy. Sorry to disappoint you.

Julius and you trusted me as the Vice-Marshal as there were no other candidate. Same with Twainwood. So much for the trust in my skills or ability.

And do not worry; I will show you what I am capable of.

Until we meet again,
Eachann Fohl
Viscount of Twainwood
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 24, 2013, 02:38:17 AM
A duel to death has been issued and accepted. Let's see what happens.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 24, 2013, 02:42:33 AM
Aurvandil is passed the point of caring if our enemies retain their territory, so we will welcome all Barcan's who defect. It will be a cleaner end to Barca than the one Mendicant ordered this week, this war has been going on so long we've agreed that the Madina Contingency is the only viable solution. That, and the number of protests against the current policy in Aurvandil rose to the point where Mendicant could no longer refuse to fight the Veinsormoot, and refuse to fight with intent to make them capitulate utterly at sword point.

Also, posting letters to the forum does sort of undermine the in character aspects of what is going on at the moment.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 24, 2013, 03:06:31 AM
It seems those letters enclose some kind of global strategy according to your words.

Let's skip that pretended refusal to war you've played here for so long. Aurvandil has provoked and has played hard with every realm that has surrounded it. It has profited of betrayal and deflection, and has exploited any imaginable hole in a treaty to its own benefit. It has interfered on the politics and the wars other realms were playing, and it has willingly brought war to the realms it wanted to.

Your complaint has been that once you have "sharpened your swords in the stones of others' Senate houses", you have expected those realms to just nod and sign peace quick as pan, instead of hating your arrogance. Now Falkirk is about to fall, instead of destroying periodically the productivity of your enemy realms, you'll just try to dissolve the members of the Veinsormoot one by one to avoid your armies to face an equal enemy.

"Madina Contingency". I'd really like to see someday how it works on Candiels.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 24, 2013, 03:34:35 AM
Aurvandil is passed the point of trying to preserve the territory and integrity of the Veinsormoot, at this point it's quicker, easier and more efficient to just fight you. Evidently the Veinsormoot are too busy manoeuvring amongst other realms to consider peace, and are too confident in the defence and resources provided by Sanguis Astroism and the overall reticence of the Commonweath to consider Aurvandil a genuine threat. Of which you can hardly be blamed, it's hard to take Aurvandil as a serious threat when we don't fight you, you have us surrounded and you have thus far maintained a state of hostilities relatively without reprisal.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 24, 2013, 03:50:05 AM
I've always maintained that if Aurvandil went head-to-head against the moot, that Aurvandil would kick the moot's ass.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on February 24, 2013, 03:51:19 AM
I've always maintained that if Aurvandil went head-to-head against the moot, that Aurvandil would kick the moot's ass.

But... but... D'hara! Their military genius will destroy all in their path!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on February 24, 2013, 04:02:42 AM
Now is the time to start making bets.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 24, 2013, 04:57:11 AM
But... but... D'hara! Their military genius will destroy all in their path!
Can you please quit? When has D'Hara ever claimed to be military geniuses? We haven't.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 24, 2013, 04:57:44 AM
Now is the time to start making bets.
Nothing too new so I don't know why.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on February 24, 2013, 05:01:01 AM
We have 70 nobles and are finally going away from playing "nice" yea it wouldn't be a fight now. We are superior in everything except gold production. Now a couple months ago would be a different story.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 24, 2013, 05:17:17 AM
Yea bro, 68 nobles (plus your 27 Saxon fellas) against the 152 of the realms that are actively involved in the war against Aurvandil, not taking on account any Astroist realm. Indeed in 1 vs 1 combat Aurvandil does fine, but thankfully you have been doing awful diplomatic relations.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 24, 2013, 05:34:40 AM
Yea bro, 68 nobles (plus your 27 Saxon fellas) against the 152 of the realms that are actively involved in the war against Aurvandil, not taking on account any Astroist realm. Indeed in 1 vs 1 combat Aurvandil does fine, but thankfully you have been doing awful diplomatic relations.
We  are going to most likely get our asses kicked on the western front.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on February 24, 2013, 06:52:59 AM
Evidently the Veinsormoot are too busy manoeuvring amongst other realms to consider peace, and are too confident in the defence and resources provided by Sanguis Astroism and the overall reticence of the Commonweath to consider Aurvandil a genuine threat.

Uh.. since when has the 'Moot ever not considered Aurvandil a threat? We've considered you a major threat this entire war. Hell, that is half the reason the whole war even exists, because the 'Moot is terrified of you doing... exactly what you say you are about to do. Yeah, Aurvandil has the highest noble count and most active noble movement on the entire island... that's been known for a very long time. Anyone who has said otherwise is off their rocker.


Aurvandil is passed the point of trying to preserve the territory and integrity of the Veinsormoot,

*barf* Give me a break, when has Aurvandil EVER been concerned with "preserving the territory" or "integrity" of the 'Moot?

Oh, was it when you:

- Took in 3 regions from Barca and refused to give them back?
- Went back on the Evanburg treaty?
- Were preserving their integrity when you marched into Rettleville and "sharpened your swords on their Senate building"?
- When you proclaimed Barca's civilization nothing more than people living in sticks and mud?
- When you colonized the Marocciden's most important city with a puppet state?
- Was it when you captured nobles and council members during battles, called them uncivilized vermin, and stole their gold?


Aurvandil cared about preserving 'Moot territory and integrity? Don't talk to us like we're idiots right to our faces, man... sheesh.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Arundel on February 24, 2013, 07:36:45 AM
Yea bro, 68 nobles (plus your 27 Saxon fellas) against the 152 of the realms that are actively involved in the war against Aurvandil, not taking on account any Astroist realm. Indeed in 1 vs 1 combat Aurvandil does fine, but thankfully you have been doing awful diplomatic relations.

Unfortunately, everyone has their own interests. Some end where others begin, and that might spell victory for the Southrons.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on February 24, 2013, 07:52:44 AM
Unfortunately, everyone has their own interests. Some end where others begin, and that might spell victory for the Southrons.

*Southroners
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 24, 2013, 08:01:13 AM
Unfortunately, everyone has their own interests. Some end where others begin, and that might spell victory for the Southrons.
Aka, LN doesn't give a !@#$, they are only in this war for Fissoa...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 24, 2013, 10:08:03 AM
I've always maintained that if Aurvandil went head-to-head against the moot, that Aurvandil would kick the moot's ass.

Oh, most definitely. Moot vs. Aurvandil it'll be Aurvandil every time. The best imaginable outcome for the Moot is a bloody stalemate that leaves the whole mid-Maroccidens a worthless mess.

Which is, of course, why Terran spends all of its time and effort on diplomacy.

Aka, LN doesn't give a !@#$, they are only in this war for Fissoa...

We'll see.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on February 24, 2013, 11:13:00 AM
Everything else aside, Terran and D'Hara have pretty much zero reason to continue fighting if Barca defects. I mean, D'Hara is intact, Terran is intact, and most of the rhetoric was over reclaiming Barcan regions, yet Twainwood defected. OOC, I simply don't see this lasting much longer.

Rynn would rather be fighting Lurians anyway. That's the cool thing to do.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 24, 2013, 11:58:56 AM
Maybe too late for that, they're starting to "go away from playing nice" and the "Madina Contingency" has started.

Crap I lost the duel.  :(
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Astinus on February 24, 2013, 12:03:37 PM
Aka, LN doesn't give a !@#$, they are only in this war for Fissoa...

Why should LN give a !@#$ about Aurvandil? It keeps its D'Haran neighboroughs distracted while being too far to be a threat. I see more reasons for them to be Ourvandoux friends than enemies, even if probably the most suited diplomatic position is ignore them
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bael on February 24, 2013, 12:06:23 PM
Oh, most definitely. Moot vs. Aurvandil it'll be Aurvandil every time.

Yep, all of those players from the two deceased northern realms really helps...

Sarcastic comments aside, I must admit that a good job has been done in Aurvandil - creating a realm where people login often only for that realm, and where people are enthusiastic about the realm is not easy. Something that I couldn't adequately foster - Barca always seems very quiet. Same as Caerwyn before it.

Oh well.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on February 24, 2013, 02:12:01 PM
Nothing too new so I don't know why.

Bet on time of death and order of realm deaths?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on February 24, 2013, 02:15:07 PM
Well, Barca is now cut in half.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on February 24, 2013, 02:44:10 PM
This situation sort of reminds me of the Nova server in Astro Empires. The biggest guild, King, would have several spies in the enemy guild suicide their fleet into the enemy fleet just before the King fleet crashed the enemies main JG. They didn't even need to do so in order to win, but did so anyways.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Meneldur on February 24, 2013, 02:53:47 PM
Everything else aside, Terran and D'Hara have pretty much zero reason to continue fighting if Barca defects. I mean, D'Hara is intact, Terran is intact, and most of the rhetoric was over reclaiming Barcan regions, yet Twainwood defected. OOC, I simply don't see this lasting much longer.

Rynn would rather be fighting Lurians anyway. That's the cool thing to do.

I can very much imagine this happening, particularly in D'Hara. Of course Constantine will vehemently oppose it if it does but most D'Haran's are fundamentally pragmatic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on February 24, 2013, 02:58:17 PM
Yea bro, 68 nobles (plus your 27 Saxon fellas) against the 152 of the realms that are actively involved in the war against Aurvandil, not taking on account any Astroist realm. Indeed in 1 vs 1 combat Aurvandil does fine, but thankfully you have been doing awful diplomatic relations.

It's 72 now actually. Also, those 72 nobles follow orders precisely and really want this war to be over. Oh did you die from the death duel?

I hope d'hara can see the futility in this war now. A quick peace would most likely be welcomed by mendicant
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bael on February 24, 2013, 03:07:45 PM
A new war is breaking out   (12 minutes ago)
Zuma Coalition has declared war on Aurvandil.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 24, 2013, 03:17:41 PM
Nope, I didn't. Live today to fight another. And contrarily to your rounds, I checked the realm list before writing; 72 is the current amount after the last deflections. Congratulations, you can be proud to be host of the greatest amount of traitors in Dwilight!

Of course nobody likes to renounce to the government of a region just to keep clean honour. And you are so thirsty of new servants that don't even mind to openly boast about your new acquisitions. I'm sure they'll do fine as long as things go well for Aurvandil.

Diplomatic isolation can be perfectly compensated by fighting just wars you know you can win and so keep happy your realm-mates, I admit you've done a good work there.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on February 24, 2013, 03:26:03 PM
Nope, I didn't. Live today to fight another. And contrarily to your rounds, I checked the realm list before writing; 72 is the current amount after the last deflections. Congratulations, you can be proud to be host of the greatest amount of traitors in Dwilight!

Of course nobody likes to renounce to the government of a region just to keep clean honour. And you are so thirsty of new servants that don't even mind to openly boast about your new acquisitions. I'm sure they'll do fine as long as things go well for Aurvandil.

Diplomatic isolation can be perfectly compensated by fighting just wars you know you can win and so keep happy your realm-mates, I admit you've done a good work there.
You seem rather bitter over this whole war. Defectors are something that has always happened in war. Some people always put wealth over  loyalty. I think some of the lords honestly think that aurvandil will be more fun to play with. I, for one, would be part of morek right now if I didn't value loyalty.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on February 24, 2013, 03:57:07 PM
Mendicant is so pompous that its impossible to be pragmatic around him anymore.

Also, with the Zuma's war declaration... things might change.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on February 24, 2013, 04:10:00 PM
Can you please quit? When has D'Hara ever claimed to be military geniuses? We haven't.

Um...how about every single time Chénier speaks about the war with Luria?

If you don't like what he says, go tell him to shut up, but don't try to pretend it doesn't exist so you can be rude to others.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on February 24, 2013, 04:28:32 PM
Um...how about every single time Chénier speaks about the war with Luria?

If you don't like what he says, go tell him to shut up, but don't try to pretend it doesn't exist so you can be rude to others.

Claiming the Lurias are inept is not the same as claiming that D'Hara is brillant.

I never claimed D'Hara had glorious awe-inspiring armies. I just repeatedly claimed that the Lurias' performances were pathetic.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on February 24, 2013, 05:07:12 PM
You seem rather bitter over this whole war. Defectors are something that has always happened in war. Some people always put wealth over  loyalty. I think some of the lords honestly think that aurvandil will be more fun to play with. I, for one, would be part of morek right now if I didn't value loyalty.

I have to admit my sense of loyalty is far less pragmatic, I guess I've always seen BM as a more sophisticated browser-game than many others where "fun" is for most of the players much more important than any other consideration. But it's true that playing the villain is very often much funnier than playing the righteous character.

It's not bitterness, but of course some things here have actually pissed me off. I don't like to lose in games, as everyone, but that's part of the game. What I have most criticised is the cocky and ignoble attitude I've seen very often (both IC and OOC) from a realm that puts so much emphasis in all the honourable thing. My bad anyway, characters are not alive but played by plain regular people and it's impossible to separate one from another completely.

Claiming the Lurias are inept is not the same as claiming that D'Hara is brillant.

I never claimed D'Hara had glorious awe-inspiring armies. I just repeatedly claimed that the Lurias' performances were pathetic.

That's definitely the way to get the opposition to Aurvandil divided and lose the war. The Greeks got united to fight the Persians, even Athenians and Spartans!  :D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 24, 2013, 05:35:12 PM
Um...how about every single time Chénier speaks about the war with Luria?

If you don't like what he says, go tell him to shut up, but don't try to pretend it doesn't exist so you can be rude to others.
Thats not D'hara claiming to be military geniuses, that's Chenier, a priest, pointlessly arguing about whether or not LN was inept.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on February 24, 2013, 08:10:55 PM
That's definitely the way to get the opposition to Aurvandil divided and lose the war. The Greeks got united to fight the Persians, even Athenians and Spartans!  :D

I only said as much OOC, on these forums, and not IG, and I haven't really repeated it since the ceasefire was signed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on February 24, 2013, 09:42:35 PM
IG messages beg to differ. When D'hara defeated the one or two Solarian nobles that attacked Sallowwild they boasted of the victory far and wide. Stop and listen everytime D'hara wins a battle. It doesn't happen often but just listen.

Also if LN's performance was pathetic, what does that make D'hara's? I remember this realm they sent military aid to, Luria Vesperi. What happened to them?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Woelfy on February 24, 2013, 09:48:08 PM
IG messages beg to differ. When D'hara defeated the one or two Solarian nobles that attacked Sallowwild they boasted of the victory far and wide. Stop and listen everytime D'hara wins a battle. It doesn't happen often but just listen.

Also if LN's performance was pathetic, what does that make D'hara's? I remember this realm they sent military aid to, Luria Vesperi. What happened to them?

Dhara beat one or two Solarian nobles, after a single Solarian Cav unit decimated four seperate units.

And then they started boasting how amazing they were. Haven't heard anything positive from the dharans since though.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 24, 2013, 10:04:37 PM
You both sucked in the "war".
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 24, 2013, 10:40:11 PM
You both sucked in the "war".

+1

On peace:

It'd be an interesting proposition.

And frankly, I think the chronology would go:
1. Peace
2. (post-war power re-arrangement)
3. Terran takes vengeance on D'Hara for hating Lurians too much and not participating in the western front.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on February 24, 2013, 10:52:22 PM
IG messages beg to differ. When D'hara defeated the one or two Solarian nobles that attacked Sallowwild they boasted of the victory far and wide. Stop and listen everytime D'hara wins a battle. It doesn't happen often but just listen.

Also if LN's performance was pathetic, what does that make D'hara's? I remember this realm they sent military aid to, Luria Vesperi. What happened to them?

Luria Vesperi was too busy ordering suicide charges in waves and hoarding gold for defeat tournaments to be properly defended.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on February 25, 2013, 12:36:33 AM
Why do all of these threads turn into people bashing each other's realms? We all suck, just in different ways! *the more you know*

Let's go back to talking about Barca splitting in two. Zuma to the rescue? Will Zuma join the Moot? Oh snap!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 25, 2013, 12:43:48 AM
They could join as observers. ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 25, 2013, 03:10:48 AM
They could join as observers. ;)
I don't think its ever been considered but I don't actually know why they couldn't join as full members.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 25, 2013, 03:20:32 AM
Because they do not embrace the "Republican" style of government, do they? I mean, I thought that they were pretty much a tyranny with Haktoo as absolute ruler.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on February 25, 2013, 03:25:05 AM
Because they do not embrace the "Republican" style of government, do they? I mean, I thought that they were pretty much a tyranny with Haktoo as absolute ruler.
Well that doesn't mean it can't change, that and the Zuma could just say they are running a republic style of government, and we just believe them as we have no way to actually prove it, like we can with other realms.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 25, 2013, 06:28:35 AM
Because they do not embrace the "Republican" style of government, do they? I mean, I thought that they were pretty much a tyranny with Haktoo as absolute ruler.

hmmm... I suppose we don't technically require that it be a republic of HUMANS...

But no, I don't think they could qualify as republican.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on February 25, 2013, 08:17:40 AM
hmmm... I suppose we don't technically require that it be a republic of HUMANS...

But no, I don't think they could qualify as republican.

Plus Glaumring would flip his lid if we let the Zuma in and not him  ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on February 25, 2013, 02:23:34 PM
Ooh...  a bonus!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on February 25, 2013, 03:38:40 PM
Oh the Moot? That old thing... I totally forgot about it with all the hot new action of the council of Mech Albion.  ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on February 27, 2013, 01:22:32 PM
So, how 'bout that Fissoa/Astrum game?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on February 27, 2013, 09:50:26 PM
So, how 'bout that Fissoa/Astrum game?

When I saw that...

Just about died laughing.

And I feel vindicated. Now Hireshmont has plenty of reason to get everybody involved to agree on FORMAL alliances.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Poliorketes on February 27, 2013, 11:36:23 PM
It was wonderful battle! A magnificent victory!... It was a shame it wasn't against the correct army!  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on February 28, 2013, 02:34:31 AM
It was wonderful battle! A magnificent victory!... It was a shame it wasn't against the correct army!  ;D

Some rather ignominious honour points were accumulated that day.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 05, 2013, 08:47:32 PM
Sooo anyone catch the score of that game in Terran?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 05, 2013, 08:49:08 PM
Something I don't get... now that all of SA is united against Aurvandil, and that Orvandil houses a religion that has been declared to be evil and heretical... Where are all the SA priests? Why aren't they sneaking into Aurvandil, preaching and causing trouble?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 05, 2013, 08:52:05 PM
That's not really something we've ever done as an official policy. Not in any concerted manner. There have been a few individual incidents, but nothing big.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 05, 2013, 08:57:40 PM
That's not really something we've ever done as an official policy. Not in any concerted manner. There have been a few individual incidents, but nothing big.

There's never been a heretical faith like this before, housed by a realm your armies had such difficulties to reach. ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on March 05, 2013, 08:58:52 PM
Something I don't get... now that all of SA is united against Aurvandil, and that Orvandil houses a religion that has been declared to be evil and heretical... Where are all the SA priests? Why aren't they sneaking into Aurvandil, preaching and causing trouble?

That was Allison's plan. You won't catch anyone implementing one of Allison's plan for a while....
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 05, 2013, 08:59:13 PM
'Tis true. I can't argue against that. But that kind of thing would be the bailiwick of the office of the Maddening Star. If you want it to happen, talk to Rabisu.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 05, 2013, 09:00:42 PM
'Tis true. I can't argue against that. But that kind of thing would be the bailiwick of the office of the Maddening Star. If you want it to happen, talk to Rabisu.

Rabisu sucks, someone replace him already!  >:(
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on March 05, 2013, 09:10:15 PM
Preaching unrest in Aurvandil would be the office of the Maddening... but preaching unrest would have little effect if there weren't already a fair number of Astroists in the regions. And converting peasantry - missionary work - is the office of the Auspicious. And really, neither is going to happen without either the permission of Aurvandil, or the support of Astroist military forces.  So there's that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 05, 2013, 10:52:01 PM
Preaching unrest in Aurvandil would be the office of the Maddening... but preaching unrest would have little effect if there weren't already a fair number of Astroists in the regions. And converting peasantry - missionary work - is the office of the Auspicious. And really, neither is going to happen without either the permission of Aurvandil, or the support of Astroist military forces.  So there's that.

There are 'moot armies. That can give enough cover to start some preaching.

Back in the days, The Blood Cult did some nice damage against the usurper's regime in Fwuvoghor, with a bunch of priests from different realms coming in and doing their stuff.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 06, 2013, 12:53:13 AM
Rabisu sucks, someone replace him already!  >:(

AS of now, the person to replace him would be Jonsu. :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 06, 2013, 01:42:51 AM
AS of now, the person to replace him would be Jonsu. :P

Okay, Rabisu can stay for now.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 06, 2013, 01:52:33 AM
Okay, Rabisu can stay for now.

I lol'ed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on March 06, 2013, 03:53:57 AM
Okay, Rabisu can stay for now.

+10
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on March 06, 2013, 04:18:03 AM
AS of now, the person to replace him would be Jonsu. :P

There is a charter revision coming up  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 06, 2013, 05:30:54 AM
There is a charter revision coming up  ;D

There's been a charter revision coming up for forever.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 06, 2013, 08:48:51 AM
There's been a charter revision coming up for forever.

*grumbles about people always being in a rush*

I've got to finish writing a paper about the determinants of student achievement in Kentucky public high schools. It's rivetting. Maybe when I finish that I'll get around to the exhilerating task of charter reform.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 06, 2013, 12:57:35 PM
*grumbles about people always being in a rush*

I've got to finish writing a paper about the determinants of student achievement in Kentucky public high schools. It's rivetting. Maybe when I finish that I'll get around to the exhilerating task of charter reform.

I have nothing but free time if you want help with it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 06, 2013, 03:19:35 PM
I have nothing but free time if you want help with it.

Somehow I feel like Jonsu's help would not be entirely productive.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 06, 2013, 03:36:34 PM
There are 'moot armies. That can give enough cover to start some preaching


Considering that Terran and Barca combined have less strength than two armies of Aurvandil (when we're on a military economy run as well) , I highly doubt that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 06, 2013, 03:40:51 PM
Don't you dare let Jonsu anywhere near that charter... you'll probably have three schisms inside a week. Srsly, she's the biggest threat to SA that we've ever had. Worse than Allison...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 06, 2013, 04:30:10 PM
Oh god please let her near the charters!!!!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on March 06, 2013, 07:17:13 PM
Okay, Rabisu can stay for now.

And before, Rabisu's luminary was Allison.

It's sort of like how Bush's vice president was Dick Cheney.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 07, 2013, 02:33:24 AM
Somehow I feel like Jonsu's help would not be entirely productive.

Nonsense! Lets streamline the prosecution and burning of heretics. Give Jonsu the power! YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO. *evil laughter*
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on March 07, 2013, 02:49:56 AM
Don't you dare let Jonsu anywhere near that charter... you'll probably have three schisms inside a week. Srsly, she's the biggest threat to SA that we've ever had. Worse than Allison...

Dangit Indirik, you went and made it sound like a fun idea.  ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on March 07, 2013, 04:39:48 AM
Oh god... Stabbity... no don't let him go near anything. It seems where-ever he goes, he brings nothing but misfortune and ruin :o
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 07, 2013, 04:44:57 AM
Oh god... Stabbity... no don't let him go near anything. It seems where-ever he goes, he brings nothing but misfortune and ruin :o

Lies and slander good sir! i had not part in the ruin of Dunnera. It was doomed before I arrived.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 07, 2013, 01:20:48 PM
Oh god please let her near the charters!!!!
+1

Also, did anyone else get the message that D'Hara and Luria Nova successfully fought a battle together...against someone else?! o_0
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 07, 2013, 03:06:03 PM
+1

Also, did anyone else get the message that D'Hara and Luria Nova successfully fought a battle together...against someone else?! o_0

More than once! Falkirkians just won't die. Would I be mistaken to assume we have an archer-heavy army?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on March 07, 2013, 06:43:59 PM
More than once! Falkirkians just won't die. Would I be mistaken to assume we have an archer-heavy army?

That is classified.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 07, 2013, 11:36:23 PM
That is classified.

Our army composition, or the undead nature of Falkirk's forces?  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 09, 2013, 04:24:57 PM
It wasn't Rynn's fault this time. I swear.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 09, 2013, 04:32:45 PM
Terran shall need to gird their loins, the Barcan campaign proved their army is too small, too poorly lead and too slow to even remotely challenge Aurvandil in the field.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 09, 2013, 04:35:58 PM
I was referring specifically to this new stuff with Asylon.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 09, 2013, 04:37:41 PM
I wasn't replying to you so much as making a general statement. But yes, I was talking about this new Asylon stuff as well, and no it wasn't Rynn's fault... as far as I'm aware, but then Rynn does have his fingers in just about every pie.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 09, 2013, 04:42:11 PM
Pies are delicious and good for the soul.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 09, 2013, 04:44:01 PM
I thought it was chicken soup that was good for the soul.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on March 09, 2013, 04:54:23 PM
I thought it was chicken soup that was good for the soul.

You can put chicken soup in the preparation used to prepare a chicken pie.

Then you bake the pie, cut it in small parts, and boil these parts in broth. That creates a chicken soup pie soup. I believe the tibetan word for that is "nirvana".
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 09, 2013, 05:04:42 PM
You can put chicken soup in the preparation used to prepare a chicken pie.

Then you bake the pie, cut it in small parts, and boil these parts in broth. That creates a chicken soup pie soup. I believe the tibetan word for that is "nirvana".

+1
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 09, 2013, 06:14:56 PM
We dont eat soup in Asylon. It is forbidden and that is why we invade Terran, to stop them from eating soup aswell.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 09, 2013, 06:33:40 PM
How does one do this thing called soup?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on March 09, 2013, 07:18:38 PM
It's time for Astrumese to have some fun close to home! I guess things in Iashalur will depend on the resulting government after the rebellion. Soon we'll have to found the "Great Dwilightean War" thread  :D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: MediumTedium on March 09, 2013, 08:32:08 PM
Even if Aurvandil looses their army when invading Terran, we can easily go back to Candiels for refit as no northern realm can march down to counterattack. But we will see what will happen  ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on March 09, 2013, 08:50:32 PM
That's true. Nevertheless I was talking about the war declaration by Asylon on Terran, almost simultaneous to the alliance between Aurvandil and Asylon. The war declaration places Terran in a delicate situation with two enemies really close. However, being Astrum and Iashalur allies of Terran, I guess they could offer some support in case of a direct threat from Asylon.

Aurvandil's got a really privileged geographical position. Falkirk seems to not be a filter to any attack from the east anymore, and maybe that pushed Aurvandil to seek another diplomatic advantage. I remember I read some time ago that alliances were some kind of dishonourable thing for Aurvandil, but I guess times and necessities change.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 09, 2013, 09:45:33 PM
I am sure Astrum will come marching down soon preventing us spreading our anti-soup ideology.
Ishalur too maybe, but i am curious to see how their rebellion goes. Maybe their new ruler is Anti-soup aswell(but i doubt it).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 09, 2013, 10:10:57 PM
 We personally do not want to war Terran as much as we really want to war D'Hara. The problem being distance and Terran in the way. Perhaps in a few days Terran will be willing to throw D'Hara under the bus to save their hides and nullify their alliance as a mere formality. Interesting how things turn out.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daimall on March 09, 2013, 10:13:22 PM
I am sure Astrum will come marching down soon preventing us spreading our anti-soup ideology.
Ishalur too maybe, but i am curious to see how their rebellion goes. Maybe their new ruler is Anti-soup aswell(but i doubt it).

Isn't it a bit premature to assume that there will be a new ruler for Iashalur?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 09, 2013, 10:53:50 PM
Isn't it a bit premature to assume that there will be a new ruler for Iashalur?

Sorry, poor choice of words, IF there will be a new ruler.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: mikm on March 09, 2013, 11:35:40 PM
Finally something important happening in Asylon and drought in the north.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 09, 2013, 11:42:06 PM
We personally do not want to war Terran as much as we really want to war D'Hara. The problem being distance and Terran in the way. Perhaps in a few days Terran will be willing to throw D'Hara under the bus to save their hides and nullify their alliance as a mere formality. Interesting how things turn out.

Good, finally an excuse to chop down all of the bloodmoon fruit trees that rot your minds!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 10, 2013, 12:02:37 AM
Good, finally an excuse to chop down all of the bloodmoon fruit trees that rot your minds!

You focus on chopping down trees and we'll focus on the war effort.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 10, 2013, 12:11:21 AM
You focus on chopping down trees and we'll focus on the war effort.

Fair enough. I'm sure that a lot of people slighted by your alliance with Aurvandil will be happy to focus on the war effort for us.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 10, 2013, 12:29:33 AM
The choices you made in the last war have made it clear what choices we had to make in this war.Its over for you guys in more ways than you know.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 10, 2013, 01:01:25 AM
The choices you made in the last war have made it clear what choices we had to make in this war.Its over for you guys in more ways than you know.

How DARE we not let foreign realms dictate our foreign policies, right? XD
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 10, 2013, 01:16:36 AM
The choices you made in the last war have made it clear what choices we had to make in this war.Its over for you guys in more ways than you know.
You have a completely irrational opinion of that war, so please, quit talking about it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 10, 2013, 01:16:44 AM
Terran shall need to gird their loins, the Barcan campaign proved their army is too small, too poorly lead and too slow to even remotely challenge Aurvandil in the field.

Because we ever thought otherwise?

We've just been trying to survive the aggression of Aurvandil this whole time. Duh you all are bigger.


EDIT: Also, WTF Asylon!? Out of the freaking blue. Man I hope Astrum is bored.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 10, 2013, 01:17:24 AM
We personally do not want to war Terran as much as we really want to war D'Hara. The problem being distance and Terran in the way. Perhaps in a few days Terran will be willing to throw D'Hara under the bus to save their hides and nullify their alliance as a mere formality. Interesting how things turn out.
AFAIK, thats just Glaumring BS and not truth.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 10, 2013, 01:17:45 AM
How DARE we not let foreign realms dictate our foreign policies, right? XD

I thought that was the point of alliances, to give suggestions and work together towards a common goal... Oh I forgot, Alliances under your definition are used to prop you up and save your ass.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 10, 2013, 01:19:55 AM
Because we ever thought otherwise?

We've just been trying to survive the aggression of Aurvandil this whole time. Duh you all are bigger.


EDIT: Also, WTF Asylon!? Out of the freaking blue. Man I hope Astrum is bored.

You see that we signed an alliance with asylum and you think it's is just out of the blue? Come on guys? You can't reason better than that?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 10, 2013, 01:21:12 AM
I thought that was the point of alliances, to give suggestions and work together towards a common goal... Oh I forgot, Alliances under your definition are used to prop you up and save your ass.

The common goal was the prevention of Kabrinskian expansionism. We were all united behind that.

But when it came to Asylonian expansionism... Yea, no. :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 10, 2013, 01:21:48 AM
AFAIK, thats just Glaumring BS and not truth.

Sadly it is truth...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 10, 2013, 01:24:27 AM
Sadly it is truth...

We hate X, so let's strike Y!

Sounds totally Asylonian to me. I believe it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 10, 2013, 01:26:33 AM
The common goal was the prevention of Kabrinskian expansionism. We were all united behind that.

But when it came to Asylonian expansionism... Yea, no. :P

Shot yourself in the toe on that one. If we had destroyed Kabrinskia we'd have Terran and Asylon with lands all the way up to Golden Farrow, a united strong army, a strong alliance and when it came to either the Astroists and or Aurvandiil we would be able to make our own independent decisions. Instead you chose to bring foreigners into your court, turn your back on your fellow brothers of the west and eventually lead to a choice where the Moot will be utterly destroyed in a short period of time. You might be good at politics  and signing alliances but you blow at long term strategy...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 10, 2013, 01:29:46 AM
Anyways I am done here arguing on the forums. I am not going to waste my time trying to change the way you think. The entire time I have argued for strength, independence and our own alliances and cultures to be honoured above all else and all you guys can say to me is that I am the enemy,  that I am crazy... If thats the definition of crazy then I am so glad I'm not completely sane like you guys.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 10, 2013, 01:30:28 AM
Shot yourself in the toe on that one. If we had destroyed Kabrinskia we'd have Terran and Asylon with lands all the way up to Golden Farrow, a united strong army, a strong alliance and when it came to either the Astroists and or Aurvandiil we would be able to make our own independent decisions. Instead you chose to bring foreigners into your court, turn your back on your fellow brothers of the west and eventually lead to a choice where the Moot will be utterly destroyed in a short period of time. You might be good at politics  and signing alliances but you blow at long term strategy...

Doubtful. More likely, the astrocracies would have ganged up on us, with the Lurias colonizing the isles, with a crippled 'moot to face an imperialist Aurvandil, alone and without meaninful allies.

Nah, I think we did the right thing. Quite happy to be at war with Asylon, actually, I was planning to make it happen eventually. Gotta save you from yourselves.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daycryn on March 10, 2013, 01:35:29 AM
Yay, war by proxy time!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 10, 2013, 02:07:38 AM
Just wait till Rynn's wife finds out about this...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 10, 2013, 02:12:44 AM
Quote
Just wait till Rynn's wife finds out about this...

I have already sent her a letter.


EDIT: Also, WTF Asylon!? Out of the freaking blue. Man I hope Astrum is bored.

Not really out of the blue, I kept rejecting the offers (I think it was two, or maybe one and then a conversation where he tried to make me come to my senses) that the Terran regent gave me a long time ago where he wanted to re-create the good ol' friendship with Asylon. Should been a small give away that something was up... But I didnt actually make warplans then, they where spawned much later, I am just not very fond of having a bunch of meaningless alliances that just keeps us protected by game mechanics.

**edit** I just wrote a large piece of text on the views, plans and a bit of personal history about D'hara and then I thought I'd just restrain myself from posting it here, dont want to give you a bunch of IC/OOC knowledge and the perspective of Grimrog, so stick with the ramblings of Glaumring and think thats the whole truth.

**edit 2**
And when I say you, I mean you who play ForumMaster.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 10, 2013, 02:20:55 AM
Nothing about this declaration is surprising, neither the opposition to the 'moot nor the suicidary way in which it was declared.

The indicators leading up to this were numerous and obvious.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daimall on March 10, 2013, 02:30:47 AM
What about the almost eerily simultaneously timed revolt in Iashalur? Was that foreseen?  :P

Anyways, just glad that something is actually happening up here that have the possibility of validating our existence.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 10, 2013, 02:31:08 AM
Allison Kabrinski, Mendicant and Glaumring all on one team... You ain't seen nothing yet.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 10, 2013, 02:46:08 AM
Because we ever thought otherwise?

We've just been trying to survive the aggression of Aurvandil this whole time. Duh you all are bigger.


EDIT: Also, WTF Asylon!? Out of the freaking blue. Man I hope Astrum is bored.

Aurvandil wouldn't have to be aggressive if you weren't hell bent on a suicidal war against us.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 10, 2013, 02:56:05 AM
Allison Kabrinski, Mendicant and Glaumring all on one team... You ain't seen nothing yet.

How should any of that be surprising... You've been buddies forever.

What about the almost eerily simultaneously timed revolt in Iashalur? Was that foreseen?  :P

Anyways, just glad that something is actually happening up here that have the possibility of validating our existence.

More or less. Asylon's been threatening to do this since a while, now sounds like a rather good time to finally, for once, act on its words.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 10, 2013, 03:02:41 AM
How should any of that be surprising... You've been buddies forever.

Mendicant and Allison have been far from "buddies", considering most of their communication used to consist of mutual scorn and threats until quite recently when they realised they could amicably work together.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 10, 2013, 03:06:06 AM
Mendicant and Allison have been far from "buddies", considering most of their communication used to consist of mutual scorn and threats until quite recently when they realised they could amicably work together.

Asylon and Aurvandil. Allison came in later, but even that is old news.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 10, 2013, 03:19:41 AM
Remember when D'Hara and Asylon were trying to get Aurvandiil to land in Terran so they could attack north into Kabrinskia but Terran wouldn't allow it... Those were such simple times.  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 10, 2013, 03:26:01 AM
Remember when D'Hara and Asylon were trying to get Aurvandiil to land in Terran so they could attack north into Kabrinskia but Terran wouldn't allow it... Those were such simple times.  ::)

A brief discussion on the possibility is not "try to make it happen"...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 10, 2013, 03:31:54 AM
It only required a brief discussion on its possibility, as Aurvandil could have fielded its armies against Kabrinskia if we chose to.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Graeth on March 10, 2013, 04:15:26 AM
Long term, even if Asylon is wiped off the map it will only feed Aurvandil more nobles to deploy in war.  Whatever the outcome I expect the map of Western Dwilight to be significantly changed when this is all settled.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on March 10, 2013, 04:42:13 AM
You see that we signed an alliance with asylum...

That you did... That you did  ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 10, 2013, 04:48:54 AM
That you did... That you did  ;)
That's the thing about being lazy and playing on your iPhone. It thinks it knows how to spell better than me.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 10, 2013, 04:58:56 AM
Asylum is a place of safety a place of rest a calm grove, an orchard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_(antiquity)


http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=57424.0
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on March 10, 2013, 06:46:31 AM
Asylum is a place of safety a place of rest a calm grove, an orchard.

Or, you know, this.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/insane+asylum
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on March 10, 2013, 06:50:43 AM
Isn't it a bit premature to assume that there will be a new ruler for Iashalur?

No, there certainly will be a new ruler. The burning question is whether he'll able to keep the throne.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 10, 2013, 07:03:32 AM
Or, you know, this.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/insane+asylum

Fitting isnt it? ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daimall on March 10, 2013, 07:34:25 AM
No, there certainly will be a new ruler. The burning question is whether he'll able to keep the throne.

I guess there is a saying that if its easy to take, it will be hard to hold. Or something of that sort. I'm guessing Sanguis Astroism is not exactly happy with a revolt in one of its theocracies, especially the one that is closest to the bloodstars.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 10, 2013, 08:03:27 AM
Aurvandil wouldn't have to be aggressive if you weren't hell bent on a suicidal war against us.

Oh yeah, we're real hell bent on it. We totally love fighting wars against realms with 3 times our Noble count. What in the world, man?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 10, 2013, 12:58:52 PM
It only required a brief discussion on its possibility, as Aurvandil could have fielded its armies against Kabrinskia if we chose to.

And retaliation against D'Haran would have been swift annihilation. Yea, no, I don't we'll sacrifice ourselves for you you, nicely isolated in your corners.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Arrakis on March 10, 2013, 02:36:11 PM
No, there certainly will be a new ruler. The burning question is whether he'll able to keep the throne.

Leopold is surely walking a thin line. Trying to do things his own way but simultaneously ensuring that no crusade is announced can be a hard job. It remains to be seen whether he can truly unite the ex-Niselur lands, or whether will Gaston's refusal to follow him cause a greater rift that might spark a long term civil war.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on March 10, 2013, 07:01:33 PM
I love it. Way to spice up Iashalur!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 10, 2013, 09:16:43 PM
Ayo Vellos! How ya doin, buddy?!  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 11, 2013, 06:33:34 AM
Busy.

I be on spring break yo.

I have time to bitch people out with brevity, little more.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 11, 2013, 06:55:49 AM
Busy.

I be on spring break yo.

I have time to bitch people out with brevity, little more.

Who leaked your Spring Break dates to Glaumring!?

Worst. Timing. Ever.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 11, 2013, 11:45:43 AM
Also, fun fact:

Priestess Ven's execution was greatly a result of D'Haran anger over Glaumring's own preaching in D'Haran lands. Her RP about being so miserable sealed the deal, but it's really Glaumring who was had caused anger over bloodmoon cultist unauthorized preachings before she even arrived herself.

Weren't it for Glaumring, rehabilitation may have been attempted.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 01:27:23 PM
Shut up Chenier... Worst  ,what a troll.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 11, 2013, 01:33:00 PM
"My actions have consquences? BULL!@#$."
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 11, 2013, 02:30:17 PM
Is the player of Ven forum-active?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 02:38:23 PM
Im not sure. Ven is a super player. It was a huge loss for Dwilight her leaving/dying/murdered by Chenier.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 11, 2013, 02:47:25 PM
Nope, that was Rynn that ordered her execution. Much as I enjoy watching you rant against Chernier, I'm afraid that one was all me.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 04:32:23 PM
 ;D my pleasure and Chenier still gets the blame.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 11, 2013, 04:36:44 PM
Im not sure. Ven is a super player. It was a huge loss for Dwilight her leaving/dying/murdered  Lawfully Executed by Chenier the relevant authorities.

Fixed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Graeth on March 11, 2013, 06:07:13 PM
Lawful by D'Haran standards.  That doesn't mean other realms recognize your laws.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 06:13:02 PM
Yeah just because D'Harans allow fornication with dolphins does it mean the rest of Dwilight should allow it in their laws.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on March 11, 2013, 06:26:01 PM
Im not sure. Ven is a super player. It was a huge loss for Dwilight her leaving/dying/murdered by Chenier.

Please learn to differentiate IC and OOC. The character was executed in a manner that was entirely within the game's parameter and for IC reasons. Your characters may not agree with these reasons, and that's good RP.

Ven was not executed out of spite against Dhalgren's player. Don't insinuate that it was; that's insulting.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 11, 2013, 06:38:12 PM
So Asylon's king literally just told the head of the Moot and a major political figure, "Nah, I'm not gonna tell you why we're invading you..."

He doesn't get it does he...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 11, 2013, 06:43:51 PM
No he dosent. He dosent play the diplomatic/political/intrigue-game very well.

As a player I know its a bad move, but I am playing my headstrong character the way he is.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 11, 2013, 06:47:46 PM
You don't think it would be common courtesy to tell someone why you're attacking them? How else do you expect to achieve your goals? Unless your goal is just to have a war (and if that's what you want, then go for it), you may be able to get what you want rather quickly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 11, 2013, 07:04:55 PM
Lawful by D'Haran standards.  That doesn't mean other realms recognize your laws.

Rogues are rogues whatever realm you belong to.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 11, 2013, 07:07:47 PM
Yes, I would recon it is common courtesy. And expected. But I do not wish to tip my hand OOC-wise.

And IC-wise, Grimrog do not like Hireshmont since the days when Asylon and Terran tried to cooperate, and unfortunaly his feelings is getting in the way for diplomacy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 11, 2013, 07:16:10 PM
I'm not saying that you should say OOC what the reason is, if you're not providing it IC. I was really talking IC. It seems really weird that you would declare war without stating your reasons and/or demands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 07:17:13 PM
You don't think it would be common courtesy to tell someone why you're attacking them? How else do you expect to achieve your goals? Unless your goal is just to have a war (and if that's what you want, then go for it), you may be able to get what you want rather quickly.

Oh now common courtesy becomes an issue? Never mind Morek ignoring my messages back during Thulsoma, Caerwyn doing the same and even Astrum whenever they feel we are beneath them. I see how it works now, there is the Asylon standard and then the rest standard. You guys are experts at the double standard.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 07:18:37 PM
Please learn to differentiate IC and OOC. The character was executed in a manner that was entirely within the game's parameter and for IC reasons. Your characters may not agree with these reasons, and that's good RP.

Ven was not executed out of spite against Dhalgren's player. Don't insinuate that it was; that's insulting.

I made no insinuation. Whats your problem?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: mikm on March 11, 2013, 07:19:09 PM
I've noticed the theocracies are low on nobles.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 11, 2013, 07:23:01 PM
There's no double standard here. I would think that declaring war on someone would bring things to a whole new level. Did Morek ignore and refuse to talk to Asylon, and then declare war without telling anyone why? Did Astrum, or Caerwyn?

You need to get over the persecution complex. I'm trying to have a reasonable, polite conversation with someone. The last thing we need is you barging in with all your historical baggage and trying to start a flame-fest.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on March 11, 2013, 07:27:55 PM
I made no insinuation. Whats your problem?

Im not sure. Ven is a super player. It was a huge loss for Dwilight her leaving/dying/murdered by Chenier.

I understand that you think Chénier wanted for the player of Ven to leave Dwilight. I'm sure that wasn't the case. The character is gone, the player isn't.

The actions of our characters are not personal attacks. It's just a game. Sometimes characters will die.

If I read too much into it, sorry. It's probably not what you meant, but it's how I read it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 11, 2013, 07:33:32 PM
So I just looked at the letter of Morek's cassus belli against Asylon. Correct me if i'm wrong in saying so but the SA profit never said anything bad about SA correct? just about OA?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 11, 2013, 07:40:06 PM
Morek Empire declared Aurvandil an enemy of Sanguis Astroism, and Mendicant is just sitting there thinking "Oh, well you never mentioned it and I don't see why this should be Aurvandil's problem". Really, Mendicant is the height of ambivalence when it comes to Sanguis Astroism, whatever problems the church have they can refrain from troubling Aurvandil with them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 11, 2013, 07:44:08 PM
I'm not saying that you should say OOC what the reason is, if you're not providing it IC. I was really talking IC. It seems really weird that you would declare war without stating your reasons and/or demands.

Yea, I hear you. But there are several reasons, all of the sort that I rather not make them public on ForumMaster. Thoose few that Grimrog trusts or respects has been given some of the reasons, not all. For Grimrog this war is far more complicated then a simple "We want region X a region Y"-type of war. Or a religious war for that matter, Asylon do not fight against any faith, we welcome all faiths.

So I understand that this might be slightly frustrating for some and annoying that I'm not really playing the game the way alot of other people do. Or that my character dosent openly explains his reasons and plans to characters he never exhange letters with until now.

After all, Grimrogs pride was very much hurt when only 3-4 regents congratulated him on his crown and rise to the throne ;).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 07:46:09 PM
Morek is welcome to join the fight. Infact we encourage it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 07:48:39 PM
There's no double standard here. I would think that declaring war on someone would bring things to a whole new level. Did Morek ignore and refuse to talk to Asylon, and then declare war without telling anyone why? Did Astrum, or Caerwyn?

You need to get over the persecution complex. I'm trying to have a reasonable, polite conversation with someone. The last thing we need is you barging in with all your historical baggage and trying to start a flame-fest.

So why did you bring up historical baggage and flamefests? You started off good and then flubbed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 11, 2013, 08:02:35 PM
Yea, I hear you. But there are several reasons, all of the sort that I rather not make them public on ForumMaster. Thoose few that Grimrog trusts or respects has been given some of the reasons, not all. For Grimrog this war is far more complicated then a simple "We want region X a region Y"-type of war. Or a religious war for that matter, Asylon do not fight against any faith, we welcome all faiths.

So I understand that this might be slightly frustrating for some and annoying that I'm not really playing the game the way alot of other people do. Or that my character dosent openly explains his reasons and plans to characters he never exhange letters with until now.

After all, Grimrogs pride was very much hurt when only 3-4 regents congratulated him on his crown and rise to the throne ;).

I guess you could say Terran just aren't relevant enough to know why you're burning them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Graeth on March 11, 2013, 08:04:27 PM
Rogues are rogues whatever realm you belong to.

This is true, but the way in which rogues are treated is different on a realm to realm basis.  Asylon is not in the habit of treating the life of rogues as we please.  More so, as a member of the Cult of the Bloodmoon there are much more nuanced relations than purely rogue or not rogue.  I'm not saying you guys were wrong within the framework of D'Haran law, I'm just saying that within a broader context others don't need to recognize that law as their own.  This issue was certainly complicated by the fact that she was both rogue and on D'Haran land, I admit, but externally D'Haran law is still a relative to D'Hara and others may interpret the events as they wish.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 11, 2013, 08:12:13 PM
Being rogue is a bad thing. Intended to be. No one should ever want to be rogue. Rogues die, because rogues are obviously criminals.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Graeth on March 11, 2013, 08:27:07 PM
In most cases yes, but in this case Lady Ven willingly took off the crest of Asylon as she was on a religious quest.  Obviously it isn't ideal but a rogue is not always in that state because of criminal activity.  Yes, this means she was no longer under protection of a realm but some characters might still have certain humanitarian or religious standards that fall outside of realm laws or lead to various interpretations on the justness or unjustness in how said laws are applied.

You can keep arguing this all day but it is pretty pointless.  My character doesn't have to recognize the laws of D'Hara as legitimate, that is just the way it is.  Saying that we cannot interpret the actions of D'Hara as unjust because it was lawful by D'Haran standards is a silly retort.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 11, 2013, 08:39:57 PM
In most cases yes, but in this case Lady Ven willingly took off the crest of Asylon as she was on a religious quest.  Obviously it isn't ideal but a rogue is not always in that state because of criminal activity.  Yes, this means she was no longer under protection of a realm but some characters might still have certain humanitarian or religious standards that fall outside of realm laws or lead to various interpretations on the justness or unjustness in how said laws are applied.

You can keep arguing this all day but it is pretty pointless.  My character doesn't have to recognize the laws of D'Hara as legitimate, that is just the way it is.  Saying that we cannot interpret the actions of D'Hara as unjust because it was lawful by D'Haran standards is a silly retort.

Its not so much the laws of D'hara that matter, as the individual in question, by becoming a Rogue, placed themselves outside the protection of the law. Rogues are outlaws (not the status outlaw as defined by the game mechanics) and thus anybody can do whatever they want the the individual in question.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 11, 2013, 09:13:33 PM
D'Haran's do not care if people break D'Haran laws OUTSIDE of D'Hara. But Ven broke them INSIDE D'Hara. More than once, actually. Imagine, a commoner flouting the laws of lords?

"There is a natural order to this world and those that fight against it do not fair well"
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 09:14:35 PM
IC how would you have known a player is a rogue? Like seriously she could have just lied and said she was any nation, no noble would say they were rogue if they knew death was the result and if D'Hara had asked us who this noble was we would have said she was of Asylon. The mechanism is flawed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on March 11, 2013, 09:27:30 PM
IC how would you have known a player is a rogue? Like seriously she could have just lied and said she was any nation, no noble would say they were rogue if they knew death was the result and if D'Hara had asked us who this noble was we would have said she was of Asylon. The mechanism is flawed.

Character, not player.

And the same way we know all kinds of useful information: the grapevine.

If it was a noble, then the allegiance status of any of the few hundred high nobles on a given continent (the very top interesting people out of hundreds of thousands or millions) would be known. By everyone. All the time.

If it was a commoner, then pff! who cares? Execute them all you like.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 11, 2013, 09:31:45 PM
*Shrugs*

Ven was warned more than once and never even deigned to respond. I'm fairly confident she wanted to be martyred, although for what cause yet escapes me.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: mikm on March 11, 2013, 09:35:58 PM
To put it simple if the realm you are part of goes puff you become rogue. That's what happened here.
Your only option is to join a new realm before that happens.
Now we could lets say loot every single region of D'Hara to the ground and then execute all the rogues.Does that mean they were all commoners?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 11, 2013, 09:37:45 PM
IC how would you have known a player is a rogue? Like seriously she could have just lied and said she was any nation, no noble would say they were rogue if they knew death was the result and if D'Hara had asked us who this noble was we would have said she was of Asylon. The mechanism is flawed.
She was not killed just because she was a rogue. She was arrested for breaking D'haran law, which is you can only preach with permission from the regional lord, and she preached several times IIRC after being told to stop, thus she was arrested. She then was roleplaying Ven as being in an extremely terrible condition due to the blood fruit, thus the judge saw it as taking pity on her by executing her because her condition was that bad. Any roleplay about Ven's body being fine, does not count as roleplay, as it was already established by the player of Ven, that she was in terrible condition.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: mikm on March 11, 2013, 09:45:24 PM
Well, from an IC point of view we have no way of knowing what happened.No Asylon nobles were there at the time so can only speculate that the D'Hara judge was responsible for the whole thing.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 11, 2013, 09:46:10 PM
Truth. Even Rynn felt bad for her. It pretty much was a Passion of the Ven scene. The Judge tripple checked with Rynn before executing her, which Rynn then explain to Glaum and Brom (not a bad sitcom idea, btw).

In fact, the incident she sparked very nearly saw bloodmoon fruit and the religion it spawned banned in D'Hara. Rynn stepped on that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 11, 2013, 09:48:50 PM
Well, from an IC point of view we have no way of knowing what happened.No Asylon nobles were there at the time so can only speculate that the D'Hara judge was responsible for the whole thing.
Actually Glaumring has already been told about exactly what I said already. The IG Glaumring that is.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: mikm on March 11, 2013, 09:49:52 PM
Before the execution or after?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 11, 2013, 09:51:20 PM
Before the execution or after?
After.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: mikm on March 11, 2013, 09:54:33 PM
Quite pointless in that case. More of a mockery.If we executed some D'Hara nobles and informed you after saying they were crazy, I doubt you would like that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 11, 2013, 10:06:37 PM
Quite pointless in that case. More of a mockery.If we executed some D'Hara nobles and informed you after saying they were crazy, I doubt you would like that.
Why would inform Glaumring about considering executing a pitiful thing for a human, that isn't even a member of his realm?We also never claimed crazyness. Glaumring whined in Dwi univerisity so he was informed through that. It wasn't like we executed Ven, and then went btw, I heard you care about this rogue so just to let you know, we executed her.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 10:07:32 PM
Perhaps we'll get our chance to execute some crazy D'Harans soon! ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 10:08:46 PM
Why would inform Glaumring about considering executing a pitiful thing for a human, that isn't even a member of his realm?We also never claimed crazyness. Glaumring whined in Dwi univerisity so he was informed through that. It wasn't like we executed Ven, and then went btw, I heard you care about this rogue so just to let you know, we executed her.

'Whined'  no wonder dealing with you guys is always so pleasant. Wankers
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: mikm on March 11, 2013, 10:15:55 PM
Exactly that rude attitude IC as well.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 11, 2013, 10:20:10 PM
Ive noticed that anyone here can insult me or be rude but I do it its such a drama.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 11, 2013, 10:25:06 PM
I understand that you think Chénier wanted for the player of Ven to leave Dwilight. I'm sure that wasn't the case. The character is gone, the player isn't.

The actions of our characters are not personal attacks. It's just a game. Sometimes characters will die.

If I read too much into it, sorry. It's probably not what you meant, but it's how I read it.

I don't think that ANYONE in D'Hara had any idea who this character was, nor even the player. I had never heard of that family before, all I knew is that she was illegally preaching the same faith that Glaumring was illegally preaching shortly prior in support of the saxons, and that's probably all that others likely knew as well. That along with RP she wrote about what miserable condition she was in. The fact that she was rogue meant we couldn't blame anyone for her activities, so the options left were limited. I also have no idea what that had in mind when he brought his char to D'Hara and wrote his RP. Did he expect execution? Did he make another character since? Ven was a stranger who got executed for a mix of mercy killing, to put her out of her misery, and to punish for Glaumring's actions.

Truth. Even Rynn felt bad for her. It pretty much was a Passion of the Ven scene. The Judge tripple checked with Rynn before executing her, which Rynn then explain to Glaum and Brom (not a bad sitcom idea, btw).

In fact, the incident she sparked very nearly saw bloodmoon fruit and the religion it spawned banned in D'Hara. Rynn stepped on that.

Indeed, and then the issue was tabled to not cause useless disputes with Asylon, something which is no longer of any concern. I don't suppose that anyone saved her RP somewhere, though, did they? I'd love to reuse it...

Why would inform Glaumring about considering executing a pitiful thing for a human, that isn't even a member of his realm?We also never claimed crazyness. Glaumring whined in Dwi univerisity so he was informed through that. It wasn't like we executed Ven, and then went btw, I heard you care about this rogue so just to let you know, we executed her.

Indeed, nobody had any idea this person had any importance to anyone. People who care for their own sakes don't become rogues and then go preach in foreign realms despite multiple warnings not to. And usually, few people care about people who don't care for themselves.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 11, 2013, 10:53:52 PM
Perhaps we'll get our chance to execute some crazy D'Harans soon! ;D
Another BS part of that incident. Ven was not an Asylonian but a rogue.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 11, 2013, 10:54:33 PM
'Whined'  no wonder dealing with you guys is always so pleasant. Wankers
Whined, slandering D'hara, its all the same.
Exactly that rude attitude IC as well.
What did I say that you find rude?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: mikm on March 11, 2013, 11:12:26 PM
Everything.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on March 11, 2013, 11:16:17 PM
Can we please talk about something else? I'd rather not this thread get locked too.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Graeth on March 11, 2013, 11:21:32 PM
I don't doubt one bit that a lot of stuff went on RP wise within D'Hara related to Lady Ven and her having a very real (in the RP sense) sickness, but Asylonians characters have no way of verifying any of it.  You might have informed Glaumring, but that doesn't mean you didn't lie to him.  All we in Asylon know for sure is that the leader of the Bloodmoon Cult showed up in D'Hara and was then executed.  There was no contact between us and Ven or between us and anyone in D'Hara who wasn't a member of that realm anyways.  Also my character wasn't able to make contact with the body of Lady Ven until quite some time after her execution, do to it being stored in D'Hara for awhile then being shipped off to Morek.  I think there might be some ambiguous quality as to the state of her body due to decomposition.  I never tried to say one way or another whether I interpreted her body as being ravaged by sickness or not when I first saw it.

Also there is some confusion based on this indecent and its relation to Asylon as a realm.  The Cult of the Bloodmoon is not a state religion, though many of the higher nobility in Asylon subscribe to it.  Nor was she a member of our realm at the time of her execution.  She was a good friend to many of us though and the leader of the Cult and played a not insignificant role in Asylon's history.  Her death angered many of us, but it never officially changed our kingdom's stance regarding D'Hara.  The only reason we are discussing it is because Chenier tried baiting Glaumring with it a few pages back (I apologize if it was brought up earlier in this thread, as I haven't gone through the entire thing).  It has little direct connection to this war.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 11, 2013, 11:54:27 PM
Can we please talk about something else? I'd rather not this thread get locked too.
Bring up a topic.
Everything.
Well than I guess I will just continue to be rude. If you stated something specific that I said was rude or why everything was rude, I could see a point/ actually get something out of it to change so that I am not viewed as rude but just saying everything I say is rude, doesn't help in anyway.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 12:03:02 AM
Graeth hits it on the head perfectly and this is why we feel the way we do. We had not talked to Ven until we found out she was dead. I know it was just a IG announcement, but basically IG announcement meant that someone in D'Hara some peasant or jailer mentioned it and through the grapevine it arrived in Asylon. We had no idea she was rogue, all we knew is that our priest was out wandering and from word we heard in Barca. The next thing we know or hear she is in D'Hara, perhaps some CoB peasants mentioned it as it would be a big deal in the same vein as if the Prophet of SA was wandering around and peasants noticed it. Asides from that our anger was that D'Hara killed our head priest and member of Asylon.

Anyways, Chenier has an OOC/IC hatred of Glaumring so ergo IG he hates everything I do be it the Council of Mech Albion, CoB or Asylon so we just have to deal with it and play the game.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 12:04:16 AM
Can we please talk about something else? I'd rather not this thread get locked too.

Maybe we should shut up and just focus on Moot/SA issues?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 12, 2013, 12:13:03 AM
FWIW the player of Ven does still have a character on Dwilight. The character name is Aristobulous, or something like that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 12:14:42 AM
FWIW the player of Ven does still have a character on Dwilight. The character name is Aristobulous, or something like that.

Thats cool beans and totally awesome.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 12, 2013, 12:17:03 AM
FWIW the player of Ven does still have a character on Dwilight. The character name is Aristobulous, or something like that.
What realm?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 12, 2013, 12:35:37 AM
Aurvandil. Started near the end of January, almost two months ago.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 12:44:15 AM
Aurvandil. Started near the end of January, almost two months ago.

whew... At least we know Aurvandiil has one good roleplayer... ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 12, 2013, 12:52:55 AM
Aurvandil. Started near the end of January, almost two months ago.
Looks like the next Dhalgren needs to die. ;)
whew... At least we know Aurvandiil has one good roleplayer... ;)
I hear Luria Nova has several really good ones too. D'hara's is probably Rynn, though Ghaundan does some good stuff too-they are the only two I can think of off the top of my head anyways.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on March 12, 2013, 01:01:06 AM
....
Asides from that our anger was that D'Hara killed our head priest and member of Asylon.


She was not a member of Asylon, hence she was able to be executed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 01:08:16 AM
She was not a member of Asylon, hence she was able to be executed.

We didn't know that.  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 12, 2013, 01:20:01 AM
You should keep better track of your prophet. ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Graeth on March 12, 2013, 01:24:12 AM
You'd think it would be easier.  To tell the truth I don't even remember what was going on that we lost track of her.  Too much Bloodmoon IMO
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 12, 2013, 01:25:00 AM
You should keep better track of your prophet. ;)

+1
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 01:32:02 AM
You should keep better track of your prophet. ;)

What fun would that be... Our prophet is now a martyr... That leaves the powerful and corrupt to make up the rest. 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 12, 2013, 01:50:11 AM
Mmmm.... martyrs...  every religion needs a good supply them ready for the making.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 12, 2013, 01:53:09 AM
Mmmm.... martyrs...  every religion needs a good supply them ready for the making.
Any actual reason?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 01:59:35 AM
Mmmm.... martyrs...  every religion needs a good supply them ready for the making.

Glaumring is a 61 year old Hero... Fighting at the frontline of a war... Come get me!!!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 12, 2013, 02:34:40 AM
Martyrs make everything better. A great rallying point for drumming up religious fervor, and justifying extremism. Need to start a war against someone? Find yourself a martyr, and the people will lap it up, letting you get away with stuff you would *never* be able to do otherwise.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 02:39:37 AM
Here is a picture of the Terrans waiting for battle...

(http://i.imgur.com/MIJnVUq.jpg)


Here is the Asylonian horde...

(http://i.imgur.com/qU2oPiX.jpg)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 12, 2013, 02:43:14 AM
Where's Aurvandil glaumring?  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 02:47:04 AM
Where's Aurvandil glaumring?  ;D

Sorry I am working on all who are involved... Here is the arrival of  Aurvandiil.
(http://i.imgur.com/NlUAYPU.jpg)

The D'Harans in their long boats....

(http://i.imgur.com/QUId1Vw.jpg)

The Barcans in their forest...

(http://i.imgur.com/AxaWeah.jpg)


The armies of Morek are blessed by the prophet before leaving their homeland....

(http://i.imgur.com/Wy3oehu.jpg)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 12, 2013, 03:31:44 AM
Glaum, this is cool enough to deserve a thread of its own.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 12, 2013, 03:32:18 AM
Very interesting. I see some flaws, but its not like its going to be easy to find a picture that perfectly represents a realm. Thanks for the pics.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 12, 2013, 03:39:52 AM
Glaumring... credit where it is due: those are really cool and yes deserve a thread of its own. Great idea.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 12, 2013, 03:41:47 AM
Very interesting. I see some flaws, but its not like its going to be easy to find a picture that perfectly represents a realm. Thanks for the pics.


For one I think mendicant is the only cav in the entire aurvandil army
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 03:47:19 AM


For one I think mendicant is the only cav in the entire aurvandil army

Well for Aurvandiil I was trying to find some really ostentatious armoured knights or cataphracts. Its quite hard to find so basically you get a sort of flawed representation of what Asylon thinks the Aurvandiil army looks like. I am sure all of you have your own views of your kingdoms and the way they dress but I am trying to imagine the world from an Asylonians view. Morek and SA would be very muslim or Indian mughul or Saracen etc. The Moot would be Viking/Roman style. Asylon has turned into a barbarian type wasteland horde after the war with Kabrinskia and the long starvation, plus eating Bloodmoon has made them appear more savage. And Aurvandiil of course would be this glittering horde of diamond encrusted silver knights.


Asylon and Terran soldiers

(http://i.imgur.com/FaBDPEP.jpg)

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 12, 2013, 05:52:23 AM
Very nice Glaumring, exept that you made the Barcans look like Grimrog =/.... Coz thats how I picture Grimrog, haha.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 12, 2013, 05:27:25 PM
Barca plays with a Carthaginian RP, btw.

Rome is probably a fair RP basis for depicting Terran.

This is neat though.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on March 12, 2013, 06:39:33 PM
A proper Barcan captain, in a Medievocarthaginian fashion  ;D

(http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/19/barcancaptain.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/19/barcancaptain.jpg/)

Good idea though, Glaumring.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 07:18:25 PM
Yeah thats a better representation of the Barcans!

I want Asylon to be like tattoed woad covered picts or celts with Gaul and germanic tribe mix. Barbarian Viking mix.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 12, 2013, 07:28:48 PM
Yeah thats a better representation of the Barcans!

I want Asylon to be like tattoed woad covered picts or celts with Gaul and germanic tribe mix. Barbarian Viking mix.


Well, we are a mix from the original Asylonians(and the first Caerwyn colonist), Viking-Thulsomans and Caerwyn-english/welsh(Not sure what culture old Caerwyn had, just have this vauge image that they would be medieval English or welsh?), then add some Zuma radiation and 2 drops of bloodmoon juice, voila a fine example of Asylon warriors.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 12, 2013, 07:48:05 PM
Yeah thats a better representation of the Barcans!

I want Asylon to be like tattoed woad covered picts or celts with Gaul and germanic tribe mix. Barbarian Viking mix.

Mendicant will be horrified when he finally meets them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 12, 2013, 08:43:14 PM
Mendicant will be horrified when he finally meets them.

That thought has crossed my mind, several times =D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 12, 2013, 08:48:25 PM
Mendicant will be horrified when he finally meets them.

Look whose coming to dinner... Its like Star Trek the undiscovered country.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on March 15, 2013, 04:26:33 AM
Mendicant will be horrified when he finally meets them.

I would loooove to be a fly on the wall for that!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 16, 2013, 03:46:33 AM
So I think Aurvandil has pretty much won this war. barca and D'Hara have signed peace and left terran to be our play thing. Good times.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lychaon on March 16, 2013, 11:40:26 AM
Well, I wouldn't call that winning. You've moved your armies around indeed, but the short control on other regions you've gained has been thanks to betrayal. And as soon you've seen the Zuma approach you've started kicking your asses with your heels  ;) In Barca we were ready for an honourable death defending the walls of our capital, but it's also good to survive.

But yes, you've gotten neutrality with Barca and D'Hara. And it'd be even smoother to have a play thing with Terran after the express war declaration by Asylon and their attack.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 17, 2013, 10:32:26 PM
Aurvandil has landed in Larur.

Terran is done.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 17, 2013, 10:49:11 PM
NOT IF HIRESHMONT CAN FALL ON HIS OWN SWORD FIRST!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 17, 2013, 10:59:49 PM
Oh, and Asylon won't even stand and fight us. Annoying.

It would have been a fun battle too. The two armies are of essentially equal strength, result could go either way based on troop composition and/or line settings. Those are the most fun battles.


Honestly, a 1v1 war between Terran and Asylon would be pretty fun. Similar to the 1v1 between Terran and Kabrinskia.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 17, 2013, 11:21:28 PM
Yes, a war/battle with Asylon would have been fun.

However, what they did was smart. Diverting Terran North with their looting so that Aurvandil could land unopposed in the South achieved them a quick and total victory. It also, importantly, preserved their forces, which will benefit them as they still have yet to repel Astrum and the Golden Farrow.

Had they attempted a more blunt strategy, Terran could have inflicted casualties, either by interrupting Aurvandil's landing or by defeating Asylon on the field. This strategy they chose rendered Terran totally helpless.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 18, 2013, 12:05:16 AM
Yes, a war/battle with Asylon would have been fun.

However, what they did was smart. Diverting Terran North with their looting so that Aurvandil could land unopposed in the South achieved them a quick and total victory. It also, importantly, preserved their forces, which will benefit them as they still have yet to repel Astrum and the Golden Farrow.

Had they attempted a more blunt strategy, Terran could have inflicted casualties, either by interrupting Aurvandil's landing or by defeating Asylon on the field. This strategy they chose rendered Terran totally helpless.

And here I thought Aurvandil was too strong and proud to resort to this kind of thing, attacking a weaker foe with their backs turned...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 18, 2013, 12:47:22 AM
Yes, a war/battle with Asylon would have been fun.

However, what they did was smart. Diverting Terran North with their looting so that Aurvandil could land unopposed in the South achieved them a quick and total victory. It also, importantly, preserved their forces, which will benefit them as they still have yet to repel Astrum and the Golden Farrow.

Had they attempted a more blunt strategy, Terran could have inflicted casualties, either by interrupting Aurvandil's landing or by defeating Asylon on the field. This strategy they chose rendered Terran totally helpless.

Not really at all actually.

We couldn't have  done much of anything to stop Aurvandil no matter what. We field 12,000 CS max. No way we could stop Aurvandil's full force even if we wanted.

Also, Asylon could have engaged us and had the same effect. Our forces are of equal size so both armies would have taken significant casualties and Terran's army would be forced to refit anyways meaning we wouldn't be able to do anything to Aurvandil, either.

Also, Asylon could have just NOT attacked Terran and we still wouldn't have been able to repel Aurvandil. So, honestly, they've had little real effect.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 18, 2013, 12:55:34 AM
Having Asylon raid Terran, withdraw and deny battle forcing Terran to advance on them was the plan from the start, alongside provoking Terran to attack Aurvandil in our own regions so we could defeat their army (As we hoped they would when we camped in Twainwood for four days waiting for them) force them to slowly refit with heavy casualties and captured nobles just before the turning of winter to give Asylon the maximum possible chance of success in a campaign against Terran. Almost worryingly Terran did everything Mendicant wanted them to do every step of the way since the start of the attack on Barca up until this point.

It's always nice when everything goes as intended.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on March 18, 2013, 01:12:02 AM
For you, perhaps. Though you're about to lose an ally.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 18, 2013, 01:18:11 AM
For you, perhaps. Though you're about to lose an ally.

If I thought Falkirk was in any danger, I'd have sent everything Aurvandil has to defend them. Besides which, Aurvandil still has armies nearby if they're needed, we're not so clumsy as to throw everything against Terran, especially when we don't need to.

I'll believe all the nonsense about Falkirk falling when I see it. But Lex and his Averothoi don't fall easily and not to the level of foe presented to them currently.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 18, 2013, 01:26:36 AM
We couldn't have  done much of anything to stop Aurvandil no matter what. We field 12,000 CS max. No way we could stop Aurvandil's full force even if we wanted.

We could have reinforced the two most likely landing spots (Larur and Gretchew) inflicting heavy casualties on Aurvandil when they disembarked. It's also possible that we could have prevented their advance Northwards by fortifying Chesland. Remember, transporting siege engines over seas is expensive, so it's unlikely that Aurvandil's army has many of them; even low level fortifications like those in Chesland could make a difference. A combination of those two tactics could also work. Deploy 6,000 CS in both Larur and Gretchew to inflict casualties upon the event of Aurvandil's landfall, then, in that contingency, have them retreat after low casualties and fall back to Chesland with a bunch of militia waiting to support them. Had things gone well, Terran could have mounted a competent defence. At the least it could have caused some attrition to Aurvandil and prevented their strike from being a fatal blow.

As for Asylon engaging Terran's army. That is simply not a good idea for them. They don't need to engage Terran's army in order to hurt Terran. They merely need to loot the Northern lands, causing economic damage and drawing Terran's armies Northwards to allow Aurvandil to land unopposed. As it is, both Asylon and Aurvandil will suffer minimal casualties while Terran will suffer tremendous economic damage and be placed in a horrible strategic position, what with her entire army shadowing Asylon's in a futile chase in the far North, in the winter no less. Basically Terran has been placed in disarray and her enemies are now able to pick her apart at their leisure. It was a very good move on their part and well orchestrated too, as Noblesse said they've pulled off every step of their plan without a hitch.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 18, 2013, 01:46:47 AM
Had Larur or Chesland been defended, we simply would have landed on a beachhead secured by Asylon.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 18, 2013, 01:56:19 AM
We could have reinforced the two most likely landing spots (Larur and Gretchew) inflicting heavy casualties on Aurvandil when they disembarked. It's also possible that we could have prevented their advance Northwards by fortifying Chesland. Remember, transporting siege engines over seas is expensive, so it's unlikely that Aurvandil's army has many of them; even low level fortifications like those in Chesland could make a difference. A combination of those two tactics could also work. Deploy 6,000 CS in both Larur and Gretchew to inflict casualties upon the event of Aurvandil's landfall, then, in that contingency, have them retreat after low casualties and fall back to Chesland with a bunch of militia waiting to support them. Had things gone well, Terran could have mounted a competent defence. At the least it could have caused some attrition to Aurvandil and prevented their strike from being a fatal blow.

As for Asylon engaging Terran's army. That is simply not a good idea for them. They don't need to engage Terran's army in order to hurt Terran. They merely need to loot the Northern lands, causing economic damage and drawing Terran's armies Northwards to allow Aurvandil to land unopposed. As it is, both Asylon and Aurvandil will suffer minimal casualties while Terran will suffer tremendous economic damage and be placed in a horrible strategic position, what with her entire army shadowing Asylon's in a futile chase in the far North, in the winter no less. Basically Terran has been placed in disarray and her enemies are now able to pick her apart at their leisure. It was a very good move on their part and well orchestrated too, as Noblesse said they've pulled off every step of their plan without a hitch.


Again, it would matter little in the end. No, Aurvandil and Asylon are not strategic masterminds to realize that having 4 times the Nobles count and being on opposite ends of Terran will result in an easy victory. It simply is not a winnable or sustainable war for Terran. Or anyone. Regardless of it we had the greatest General on the face of the planet. You can't win a BM war when your enemy has over 100 nobles between two realms, one in your North and one in your South. BM wars just don't work like that.

Sure, like I said, we could have prepped and engaged Aurvandil and caused some causulties, but it would have only been an inconvenience to Aurvandil. They are far to strong, to numerous, and to well organized for it to ultimately make a difference.

Also, I never said it was smart for Asylon to engage us, I said it was ultimately irrelevant to Terran's fate. The result would be the same: we would be unable to properly engage Aurvandil (even if we wanted to) whether they engaged us or not.

Having Asylon raid Terran, withdraw and deny battle forcing Terran to advance on them was the plan from the start, alongside provoking Terran to attack Aurvandil in our own regions so we could defeat their army (As we hoped they would when we camped in Twainwood for four days waiting for them) force them to slowly refit with heavy casualties and captured nobles just before the turning of winter to give Asylon the maximum possible chance of success in a campaign against Terran. Almost worryingly Terran did everything Mendicant wanted them to do every step of the way since the start of the attack on Barca up until this point.

It's always nice when everything goes as intended.


Just for the record, the offensive into Aurvandil had been in planning for over a month. It may have been what you had hoped we would do, sure. But we had already made the decision to do it before you invaded Barca.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 18, 2013, 02:13:27 AM
Out of curiosity, did Terran even try contacting Farronite or Astrum and ask for help? I, for one, had no idea things were going so bad for Terran. We never heard any details about Asylon's invasion.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: NoblesseChevaleresque on March 18, 2013, 02:19:04 AM
Just for the record, the offensive into Aurvandil had been in planning for over a month. It may have been what you had hoped we would do, sure. But we had already made the decision to do it before you invaded Barca.

This was planned before our invasion of the Grand Duchy of Fissoa, which in part was done to get D'Hara to attack Falkirk (Making them our wasp cake) and as an analogue to see how much damage we could do with a third of total forces looting overseas for a week.

All Mendicant and Allomere do is spend hours discussing plans based on everything we think our opponents might do and then deciding on what we think is the best long term course of action to ensure our complete victory under any circumstance. Aurvandil never does anything that isn't intended to have multiple consequences so that if the main reason behind it fails, the secondary or tertiary reasons don't, that we we always advance our war aims regardless of the outcome. The invasion of Barca, for example had about five distinct and separate reasons for doing it, and all them were successful. The invasion of the Grand Duchy had about four, and they were all mostly achieved.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 18, 2013, 02:25:22 AM

Again, it would matter little in the end. No, Aurvandil and Asylon are not strategic masterminds to realize that having 4 times the Nobles count and being on opposite ends of Terran will result in an easy victory. It simply is not a winnable or sustainable war for Terran. Or anyone. Regardless of it we had the greatest General on the face of the planet. You can't win a BM war when your enemy has over 100 nobles between two realms, one in your North and one in your South. BM wars just don't work like that.

Sure, like I said, we could have prepped and engaged Aurvandil and caused some causulties, but it would have only been an inconvenience to Aurvandil. They are far to strong, to numerous, and to well organized for it to ultimately make a difference.

Also, I never said it was smart for Asylon to engage us, I said it was ultimately irrelevant to Terran's fate. The result would be the same: we would be unable to properly engage Aurvandil (even if we wanted to) whether they engaged us or not.

Sure, Terran's loss was inevitable, assuming the war would go on long enough. I am not doubting that. What Asylon's maneuver changed, however, is the totality and abruptness of Terran's defeat. Only a week ago the horrible position that Terran is in now was unthinkable. A week ago, Terran's rurals were intact and it's cities were defensible. Now, it's rurals are in ruins and it's cities are at the complete mercy of Aurvandil. This cataclysmic turn of events was well orchestrated and is responsible for forcing Terran to sue for peace. Before, peace was a luxury that most people were willing to support. Now, it's an absolute necessity, as even the capital is poised to fall. Before, Terran was in steady decline. Heck, perhaps it was even treading water; there was some optimism of defeating Falkirk and, eventually, Aurvandil. Now, Terran is in complete free-fall and nothing can be done to save it from defeat.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 18, 2013, 02:50:22 AM
Terran has been a circus for months. There is a reason nobody runs for Chief Magistrate.

Quintus hasn't rebelled because he would feel kinda sorta bad screwing over Hireshmont and Kale, but it's just as much that I don't have time to take a bigger role in Terran (assuming Quintus would even win, which is doubful given that Terran consists of a half-dozen blocs of four nobles each).

At any rate, long past due for somebody to steamroll their way in there.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 18, 2013, 03:33:17 AM
Terran has been a circus for months. There is a reason nobody runs for Chief Magistrate.

Quintus hasn't rebelled because he would feel kinda sorta bad screwing over Hireshmont and Kale, but it's just as much that I don't have time to take a bigger role in Terran (assuming Quintus would even win, which is doubful given that Terran consists of a half-dozen blocs of four nobles each).

At any rate, long past due for somebody to steamroll their way in there.

Agreed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 03:48:17 AM
Agreed.
Me thinks Terran should spread the word they need a real ruler. Marco would be interested. (Can't do worse than those before him.)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on March 18, 2013, 04:09:32 AM
If I thought Falkirk was in any danger, I'd have sent everything Aurvandil has to defend them. Besides which, Aurvandil still has armies nearby if they're needed, we're not so clumsy as to throw everything against Terran, especially when we don't need to.

I'll believe all the nonsense about Falkirk falling when I see it. But Lex and his Averothoi don't fall easily and not to the level of foe presented to them currently.

Who said I was talking about Falkirk?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 18, 2013, 04:12:47 AM
Me thinks Terran should spread the word they need a real ruler. Marco would be interested. (Can't do worse than those before him.)

The problem, as Scarlett's character in Terran has alluded to many times, is that the position is pretty redundant and powerless. I suppose unless someone with a very big personality got in there. Even then, it would be frustrating for them.

The realm is run by the Senate, and specifically those Senators who care to contribute, which means the Chief Magistrate's job is primarily foreign relations/diplomacy.... however, that is mostly de facto dominated by Hireshmont and the Elder representation in the 'Moot.

It's a thankless position with little point and not much fun. Plus you lose your landed title.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 18, 2013, 04:57:28 AM
Also, random people start flaming each other for no reason. Kas accidently travelled to Overroot and everyone started insulting him and accusing him of things, then they banned him. Shino kept on getting shouted down every time he said some minor thing. Erasmus was insulted and banned because he was executing peasants or something. Everyone who does anything is basically painting a target on themselves in that realm.

Then there's the lethargic army, where only five people follow orders willingly. The rest have to be threatened with fines. There are random starvations, too. I get that Terran is volatile in the food department, but in the past regions (Mistight, Chesland) have been completely depopulated through starvation. And for some reason there's always monsters attacking Odona :(

Yeah Terran's been doomed for a long time. If it weren't for it's alliances it would probably have fallen sooner.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 18, 2013, 04:59:48 AM
And now Mendicant quotes my forum posts at Hireshmont in letters explaining why he doesn't believe Hireshmont is serious about the surrender...

Whoop-dee-doo.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 05:04:26 AM
The problem, as Scarlett's character in Terran has alluded to many times, is that the position is pretty redundant and powerless. I suppose unless someone with a very big personality got in there. Even then, it would be frustrating for them.

The realm is run by the Senate, and specifically those Senators who care to contribute, which means the Chief Magistrate's job is primarily foreign relations/diplomacy.... however, that is mostly de facto dominated by Hireshmont and the Elder representation in the 'Moot.

It's a thankless position with little point and not much fun. Plus you lose your landed title.
I'd be making more gold as ruler of Terran. I am used to the rather thankless positions. Foreign relations/diplomacy, I see many failures in Hireshmont's foreign relation activities, thus he can keep doing his thing, and I would do everything I think he should be doing, but isn't. Obviously we can't be talking to the same person about the same thing, though same person with topics different enough they warrant separate people doing the talking, could be fine sometimes. I love the diplomacy aspect, but I have been playing Marco in such a way, that Ambassador he will never aspire to be, but ruler, even if it is primarily powerless except for diplomacy, he could aspire to be.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 18, 2013, 05:06:02 AM
I think Terran has some good candidates in our current election. One real dud, one steady hand, and one unknown: here's hoping for the steady hand!

Vote Maloudi!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 05:11:49 AM
I think Terran has some good candidates in our current election. One real dud, one steady hand, and one unknown: here's hoping for the steady hand!

Vote Maloudi!
Terran is !@#$ed again in the ruler department. Anyone outside of Terran ever heard of Maloudi? Me thinks not. Ruler, especially when their only real power is foreign relations, should be known outside of his realm, IMO. Not going to claim Marco is a legend but he has been in every almost every realm and speaks with people while he travels, due to his business he is on, so Marco is likely known by members of every realm.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 18, 2013, 05:13:57 AM
Oh, and on the whole "we planned this forever ago" motif:

Bull!@#$.

Aurvandil did nothing to provoke Terran's renewed assault. The Feb. 26 campaign is one of those rare instances where you can basically point at less than 4 or 5 people and give them full credit/blame for pretty much everything that happened. As someone playing the idealist warmonger character who's been engineering this whole war, Aurvandil has given me almost nothing to work with. Ya'll basically haven't provoked us in forever.

I the player wanted to do the Feb 26. campaign because it seemed like a neat challenge for me as a player. As it were, I miscalculated, but certainly learned a bit.

Hireshmont did it because as he gets older he gets crazier. The Hireshmont from a year ago, or two years ago, would have been very content to have a cold war with Aurvandil, or make a negotiated settlement. But this Hireshmont is older and feels a need to rework the world to make a legacy, and perceives himself as being personally important to the war (a prideful belief to be sure).

Claiming that you planned the campaign that I planned is kinda bollocks. There was no provocation for Terran. I'm sure you made some contingency plans but, no, I really do not believe you planned all this. AFTER we attacked, from then on, sure, I believe it. Sitting in TWainwood to invite our over-reach? Yeah, I do believe you planned that. A canny set of campaigns to get a free landing in Terran? Absolutely, you did a damn good job planning that, especially in combination with our disordered retreat.

But the whole kit-and-kaboodle with Aurvandil as initiator?

Nah. That's what we call a lie.

Out of curiosity, did Terran even try contacting Farronite or Astrum and ask for help? I, for one, had no idea things were going so bad for Terran. We never heard any details about Asylon's invasion.

Two things:
1. It was all very sudden. We haven't had much time to react.

2. Kas did reach out for help, with some success actually. But Kas is a bit of a Glaumring, to be frank: a million miles a minute in fifty different directions.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 18, 2013, 05:14:48 AM
Terran is !@#$ed again in the ruler department. Anyone outside of Terran ever heard of Maloudi? Me thinks not. Ruler, especially when their only real power is foreign relations, should be known outside of his realm, IMO. Not going to claim Marco is a legend but he has been in every almost every realm and speaks with people while he travels, due to his business he is on, so Marco is likely known by members of every realm.

Actually, having a known ruler is a very, very bad thing when your long-term rivals are about to destroy you and your long-term allies can't or won't help you.

A known ruler is a horrible idea at that point.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 05:18:47 AM
Actually, having a known ruler is a very, very bad thing when your long-term rivals are about to destroy you and your long-term allies can't or won't help you.

A known ruler is a horrible idea at that point.
Well I disagree, for several reasons. What is your reasoning for an unknown to be made ruler?/A known being bad?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 18, 2013, 05:24:45 AM
Well I disagree, for several reasons. What is your reasoning for an unknown to be made ruler?/A known being bad?

Known people have baggage. And Terran needs to shed a lot of baggage in record time.

Plus, as a player, I hate seeing the same players become rulers all the time. Yeah, Terran has had some crappy rulers. But I don't regret it a bit: it's meant that a ton of players who've never gotten to have a rulership anywhere else have had a chance to experience it.

For an RP perspective, Terran is a realm with an extremely powerful upper-level bureaucracy. Terran only works effectively with a ruler who can either serve as a moral center for the realm but who has no particular political interests, or else a ruler who is of titanic strength, will, and political acumen and can break the will of the elites.

I know of only 2 or 3 nobles who might be able to achieve the latter, so we roll with the former.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 05:25:54 AM
Also, random people start flaming each other for no reason. Kas accidently travelled to Overroot and everyone started insulting him and accusing him of things, then they banned him. Shino kept on getting shouted down every time he said some minor thing. Erasmus was insulted and banned because he was executing peasants or something. Everyone who does anything is basically painting a target on themselves in that realm.

Then there's the lethargic army, where only five people follow orders willingly. The rest have to be threatened with fines. There are random starvations, too. I get that Terran is volatile in the food department, but in the past regions (Mistight, Chesland) have been completely depopulated through starvation. And for some reason there's always monsters attacking Odona :(

Yeah Terran's been doomed for a long time. If it weren't for it's alliances it would probably have fallen sooner.
I thought what you were saying might have been valid until I read you see Erasmus as doing nothing wrong. You lose all credit if you don't know why he got banned.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 05:31:32 AM
Known people have baggage. And Terran needs to shed a lot of baggage in record time.

Plus, as a player, I hate seeing the same players become rulers all the time. Yeah, Terran has had some crappy rulers. But I don't regret it a bit: it's meant that a ton of players who've never gotten to have a rulership anywhere else have had a chance to experience it.

For an RP perspective, Terran is a realm with an extremely powerful upper-level bureaucracy. Terran only works effectively with a ruler who can either serve as a moral center for the realm but who has no particular political interests, or else a ruler who is of titanic strength, will, and political acumen and can break the will of the elites.

I know of only 2 or 3 nobles who might be able to achieve the latter, so we roll with the former.
Known, does not equal been ruler already. Ex-rulers are known people, but that doesn't mean that only ex-rulers are known.  As to what you think Terran needs, I don't know the internal things that some pointless figurehead is really going to help out Terran. As to your second, Marco could be that person but I don't have the time to make that happen. Also Marco is more of semi-known, he knows people minorly but generally always having good relations.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 18, 2013, 05:46:47 AM
Known, does not equal been ruler already. Ex-rulers are known people, but that doesn't mean that only ex-rulers are known.  As to what you think Terran needs, I don't know the internal things that some pointless figurehead is really going to help out Terran. As to your second, Marco could be that person but I don't have the time to make that happen. Also Marco is more of semi-known, he knows people minorly but generally always having good relations.

Um, internal figureheads are very, very important. They set the tone for the realm. Kas did an excellent job at that for a little while... then he turned into a Glaumring-clone.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 05:53:30 AM
Um, internal figureheads are very, very important. They set the tone for the realm. Kas did an excellent job at that for a little while... then he turned into a Glaumring-clone.
So is diplomacy. I see extreme failures on Terran's part. They did great getting the north to join, but beyond that its been downhill. Sure you have convinced then to suicide their army south, but there are a lot of other things they could do, that actually help, especially now. Also, I see your point on ruler's setting the mood, but that doesn't mean they should do nothing but help out realm morale.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 18, 2013, 05:54:28 AM
So is diplomacy. I see extreme failures on Terran's part. They did great getting the north to join, but beyond that its been downhill. Sure you have convinced then to suicide their army south, but there are a lot of other things they could do, that actually help, especially now.

This amuses me.

Please, tell me more about Terran's extreme diplomatic failure.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 18, 2013, 05:55:59 AM
I thought what you were saying might have been valid until I read you see Erasmus as doing nothing wrong. You lose all credit if you don't know why he got banned.

Was it because he ran an international gang of peasant hunters? That was pretty cool, imo, and would have fleshed Terran out had it stayed and been elaborated upon. Terran could have been the evil nation that promotes privateering, smuggling, slavery and all sorts of vile activities. Terran needs something to give it character, as one of it's main flaws is that it doesn't have a strong, unifying theme, other than a vague Roman thing, to get people active. It's a blank canvas, waiting to be painted, or torn down and replaced with something new. Erasmus was a good roleplayer, he could have painted it and saved it from destruction, had he not been immediately banned the moment his unorthodox activity was unveiled.

Quote
Um, internal figureheads are very, very important. They set the tone for the realm. Kas did an excellent job at that for a little while... then he turned into a Glaumring-clone.

Kas only became 'glumring' because everyone was insulting him. I saw private messages where he was called an idiot and even the realm-wide channel was full of people bashing him.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 05:59:55 AM
Was it because he ran an international gang of peasant hunters? That was pretty cool, imo, and would have fleshed Terran out had it stayed and been elaborated upon. Terran could have been the evil nation that promotes privateering, smuggling, slavery and all sorts of vile activities. Terran needs something to give it character, as one of it's main flaws is that it doesn't have a strong, unifying theme, other than a vague Roman thing, to get people active. It's a blank canvas, waiting to be painted, or torn down and replaced with something new. Erasmus was a good roleplayer, he could have painted it and saved it from destruction, had he not been immediately banned the moment his unorthodox activity was unveiled.

Kas only became 'glumring' because everyone was insulting him. I saw private messages where he was called an idiot and even the realm-wide channel was full of people bashing him.
You thinking Erasmus was banned over the peasant killings proves my point. You don't even know what goes on in your own realm, even when the game is giving you the important messages on the topic.
This amuses me.

Please, tell me more about Terran's extreme diplomatic failure.
Maybe not extreme but still a failure. Will edit in stuff.

Basically, its failure to use your resources. I hear Terran has had food issues, but never once asked for food. This entire war, like I said has been a failure of using SA to aid us. For instance, having SA take care of Terran's lands, would mean Terran has no reason to be at home except for a quick refit instead of dicking around for a month every time after they do something, which could just be sitting in Paisland for a week.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 18, 2013, 06:12:17 AM
You thinking Erasmus was banned over the peasant killings proves my point. You don't even know what goes on in your own realm, even when the game is giving you the important messages on the topic.

Well, would you care to enlighten me? It happened shortly after I joined, so you need to give me a break here. I barely knew who everyone was at that point, let alone what their histories or private dealings were. As far as I could tell, it was revealed that he was killing peasants and was banned, not before leaving a nice RP message about how he and his troops were travelling to Zuma lands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 06:20:41 AM
Well, would you care to enlighten me? It happened shortly after I joined, so you need to give me a break here. I barely knew who everyone was at that point, let alone what their histories or private dealings were. As far as I could tell, it was revealed that he was killing peasants and was banned, not before leaving a nice RP message about how he and his troops were travelling to Zuma lands.
Well that's a good thing to mention earlier. He was banning anybody who disagreed with him once his organization was put out in the open. His advy killing was bad for the realm's reputation, but the bigger issue was he had a spy network !@#$ing !@#$ up in Solaria I believe. People complained, and he basically tried to become a tyrant of the senate by banning those who disagreed with him. My info is probably flawed, but is more towards the actual reasons.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 18, 2013, 06:26:06 AM
Well that's a good thing to mention earlier. He was banning anybody who disagreed with him once his organization was put out in the open. His advy killing was bad for the realm's reputation, but the bigger issue was he had a spy network !@#$ing !@#$ up in Solaria I believe. People complained, and he basically tried to become a tyrant of the senate by banning those who disagreed with him. My info is probably flawed, but is more towards the actual reasons.

Now I remember the spy thing. But by the time he started banning people it was already clear that he would be kicked out. Plus, it was a pretty entertaining drama. It was the kind of conflict that this game should have more of, and it was only possible because he was willing to let himself be vilified. Villains = good.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 06:35:35 AM
Now I remember the spy thing. But by the time he started banning people it was already clear that he would be kicked out. Plus, it was a pretty entertaining drama. It was the kind of conflict that this game should have more of, and it was only possible because he was willing to let himself be vilified. Villains = good.
I think everyone would agree it was good, but you can't expect villains to not be punished.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 18, 2013, 06:39:06 AM
If groups of people operated differently, people could have joined up with him and created the malignant state that I mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, everyone wants to play the hero, so he was fired and instead I get to witness canned self-righteousness... oh joy.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 18, 2013, 06:43:40 AM
Also, random people start flaming each other for no reason. Kas accidently travelled to Overroot and everyone started insulting him and accusing him of things, then they banned him.

This is a completely inaccurate rendition of what happened.

Yeah, Kas traveled into Overroot and engaged the Zuma and it was probably an accident. However, for several reasons it was a big deal.

1) Most obviously is risked a ZUMA !@#$STORM INVADE TERRAN which has happened before.
2) It came very eerily after he had been reporting on himself contacting Haktoo trying to garner some kind of Zuma aid.
3) Also eerily after he was messaging the Strategium about some grand plan to win the war in one fell swoop by swinging the army around through Zuma lands.
4) It has been the, for some time now, an unofficial rule of Terran foreign policy to remain completely apathetic toward the Zuma. That is: to ignore them completely and utterly. Because the first era or two of Terran's history of trying to interact with them always lead to bad things happening.
5) Kas had already been stirring up tensions by trying to make power grabs and suggesting he was going to try to change the government form to allow him to appoint Lords, etc. instead of elections. Both Kale and Quintus were heavily put off by this.


Despite all of this, Kas would have been fine had he just said "Sorry, accident, I apologized to Haktoo, now I'm heading back to the Chateau to get another unit." Unfortunately, he did choose that course of action. He proceeded to make up excuses, glorify Haktoo in front of Senate, and then when he came under some heat, completely lost all of his composure and started basically name calling everyone in the realm, accusing people of corruption, etc., and finally by messaging the rulers of Dwilight with an incredibly treasonous message about the 'shadow gov't' of Terran run by "the Dukes." As if a realm's Dukes and long time members being significant and influential power players in a realm is some kind of surprise.

He was not banned for running into Zuma territory. It was his complete and utter failure to handle criticism and the resulting breakdown that saw him lose power.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 18, 2013, 06:46:04 AM
If groups of people operated differently, people could have joined up with him and created the malignant state that I mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, everyone wants to play the hero, so he was fired and instead I get to witness canned self-righteousness... oh joy.

It has nothing to do with being a hero. I know for a fact Hireshmont has a large information gathering ring.

It was more of a "your dirty laundry just got revealed to everyone on the continent and we sure as hell aren't letting you bring us down with you." If we were heroic, maybe we would have stood by him and tried to defend our countryman.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 18, 2013, 11:45:59 AM
The problem, as Scarlett's character in Terran has alluded to many times, is that the position is pretty redundant and powerless. I suppose unless someone with a very big personality got in there. Even then, it would be frustrating for them.

The realm is run by the Senate, and specifically those Senators who care to contribute, which means the Chief Magistrate's job is primarily foreign relations/diplomacy.... however, that is mostly de facto dominated by Hireshmont and the Elder representation in the 'Moot.

It's a thankless position with little point and not much fun. Plus you lose your landed title.

Hireshmont babysits every moot realm's diplomacy. I wasn't expecting such consequences at home, but I can believe it.

And now Mendicant quotes my forum posts at Hireshmont in letters explaining why he doesn't believe Hireshmont is serious about the surrender...

Whoop-dee-doo.

Well isn't that swell...

Terran is !@#$ed again in the ruler department. Anyone outside of Terran ever heard of Maloudi? Me thinks not. Ruler, especially when their only real power is foreign relations, should be known outside of his realm, IMO. Not going to claim Marco is a legend but he has been in every almost every realm and speaks with people while he travels, due to his business he is on, so Marco is likely known by members of every realm.

Nop, never heard of him. But then again, I never heard of most of Terran and Barca's previous rulers these days before they got elected, so...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on March 18, 2013, 01:04:32 PM
I think everyone would agree it was good, but you can't expect villains to not be punished.

Good RP is not ever a good enough reason to keep someone from getting what they deserve IC.

I have seen far, far too many nobles whose public RP makes quite clear that they are insane, evil, depraved, or just plain disgusting who get given high positions and allowed to continue doing whatever horrible things they're doing just because people think that their RP is good.

You know what this means? It means that the RP of everyone around them is very bad.

Villains should totally be punished. Even if that means you lose their good RP.

The only other reasonable option is for those around them to explicitly accept and endorse their villainy, and thus join them in it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on March 18, 2013, 01:05:34 PM
For an RP perspective, Terran is a realm with an extremely powerful upper-level bureaucracy. Terran only works effectively with a ruler who can either serve as a moral center for the realm but who has no particular political interests, or else a ruler who is of titanic strength, will, and political acumen and can break the will of the elites.

Y'know, that reminds me very much of some other realm I once knew...can't quite put my finger on it...begins with "R"... ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 18, 2013, 02:08:06 PM
Terran always seemed to me a realm set up to sort of 'get by' while the 'moot was the 'real' organization.  Short of rebellion, there is no way for any one person in Terran to get anything done. The Chief Magistrate is a vote-counter.

I've never seen a Republic work in BM without a strong central government, and both Kale and Hireshmont have (on purpose?) seen to it that that never occurs.

That's perfectly fine IC, but as a player in the realm it's made it a bit dull because all the real decisions get made by the 'moot and there is no feudal hierarchy at all. There is no reason to give a !@#$ what happens in the region next door, or who the up and coming knights are. It's just election after election and the only person who ever gets any criticism is poor Kale because his is the only job with regularly quantifiable results, even if those results (at least in this most recent case) have more to do with 'realm with no cohesion can't move as one army' and less to do with poor generalship. There isn't really even any politicking because at this point all the little mini-groups in Terran just loathe each other.

But this has been apparent forever. Terran needed to be recycled into a new realm a long time ago, but because it would have threatened the 'moot, that didn't happen. What authority does exist is typically bent toward defending the status quo and/or electing someone who won't rock the boat too much with respect to SA or the 'moot.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 02:29:38 PM
Just like to say, if Terran is having food issues, they are being dumb because they aren't talking with their federated partners to get some relief.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on March 18, 2013, 02:51:17 PM
Now I remember the spy thing. But by the time he started banning people it was already clear that he would be kicked out. Plus, it was a pretty entertaining drama. It was the kind of conflict that this game should have more of, and it was only possible because he was willing to let himself be vilified. Villains = good.

He was a villain right up until the moment that he (and his OOC buddies) got caught, and then he was just another griefer, kinda-sorta abusing game mechanics to exact revenge. Don't confuse villainy with being a troll, or being chronically predisposed to betraying your own team.  ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 18, 2013, 02:59:46 PM
This is a completely inaccurate rendition of what happened.

Yeah, Kas traveled into Overroot and engaged the Zuma and it was probably an accident. However, for several reasons it was a big deal.

1) Most obviously is risked a ZUMA !@#$STORM INVADE TERRAN which has happened before.
2) It came very eerily after he had been reporting on himself contacting Haktoo trying to garner some kind of Zuma aid.
3) Also eerily after he was messaging the Strategium about some grand plan to win the war in one fell swoop by swinging the army around through Zuma lands.
4) It has been the, for some time now, an unofficial rule of Terran foreign policy to remain completely apathetic toward the Zuma. That is: to ignore them completely and utterly. Because the first era or two of Terran's history of trying to interact with them always lead to bad things happening.
5) Kas had already been stirring up tensions by trying to make power grabs and suggesting he was going to try to change the government form to allow him to appoint Lords, etc. instead of elections. Both Kale and Quintus were heavily put off by this.


Despite all of this, Kas would have been fine had he just said "Sorry, accident, I apologized to Haktoo, now I'm heading back to the Chateau to get another unit." Unfortunately, he did choose that course of action. He proceeded to make up excuses, glorify Haktoo in front of Senate, and then when he came under some heat, completely lost all of his composure and started basically name calling everyone in the realm, accusing people of corruption, etc., and finally by messaging the rulers of Dwilight with an incredibly treasonous message about the 'shadow gov't' of Terran run by "the Dukes." As if a realm's Dukes and long time members being significant and influential power players in a realm is some kind of surprise.

He was not banned for running into Zuma territory. It was his complete and utter failure to handle criticism and the resulting breakdown that saw him lose power.

Ah, but you see a lot of that stuff could only be known to the highest echelons of the realm. From my point of view the debacle was solely about him making his misclick and half heartedly proposing a power grab. It would be nice for those other reasons to be laid out in game so that the people involved don't come off as vain psychopaths.

Quote
Good RP is not ever a good enough reason to keep someone from getting what they deserve IC.

I have seen far, far too many nobles whose public RP makes quite clear that they are insane, evil, depraved, or just plain disgusting who get given high positions and allowed to continue doing whatever horrible things they're doing just because people think that their RP is good.

You know what this means? It means that the RP of everyone around them is very bad.

Villains should totally be punished. Even if that means you lose their good RP.

The only other reasonable option is for those around them to explicitly accept and endorse their villainy, and thus join them in it.

That's a matter of opinion. Mine is that RPing the hero, or the status quo maintainer, is boring and that players should strive towards more exciting things. Punishing the 'villain,' from a character's practical standpoint, doesn't make much sense when the villainy only is of no personal detriment. Erasmus was in conflict with Solaria and some peasants, which isn't much reason for the common nobles of Terran to care. One could say that it was damaging relations with Solaria, but I don't buy that explanation in a medieval setting. Other instances of crazy or malicious characters gaining power are perfectly fine from a realism standpoint. Crazies are easy to manipulate and the malicious are probably sociopaths willing to lie, cheat and bribe their way to success. It actually makes more sense for them to gain power than for the goody-two-shoes, altruistic big brother types.

Quote
He was a villain right up until the moment that he (and his OOC buddies) got caught, and then he was just another griefer, kinda-sorta abusing game mechanics to exact revenge. Don't confuse villainy with being a troll, or being chronically predisposed to betraying your own team.

Haha, well I can't help if that's something I can relate to :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on March 18, 2013, 03:09:10 PM
That's a matter of opinion.

Certainly—I'm wearing my player hat here, not my dev hat :)

Quote
Mine is that RPing the hero, or the status quo maintainer, is boring and that players should strive towards more exciting things.

That makes the assumption that "doing bad stuff" and "shaking up the status quo" are synonymous. They aren't.

In fact, most of those "villainous" characters I mentioned in my previous post were, in fact, pretty much status quo maintainers in every (or nearly every) mechanical sense: it was only in RP that they were evil, depraved, etc.

Furthermore, it's perfectly possible to RP a character who fully has the realm's interests at heart, and has no interest in stooping to dirty, underhanded methods, but also shakes up the status quo significantly.

Quote
Punishing the 'villain,' from a character's practical standpoint, doesn't make much sense when the villainy only is of no personal detriment.

It does if the character—and the realm as a whole—has a standing RP and reputation as being upstanding and supporting Good and Right and whatnot.

Quote
Erasmus was in conflict with Solaria and some peasants, which isn't much reason for the common nobles of Terran to care. One could say that it was damaging relations with Solaria, but I don't buy that explanation in a medieval setting.

Erm...whether or not you buy it, it's completely the truth. Solaria, and Luria in general, were very unhappy with that incident, and if Terran had tolerated it, the shape of politics and alliances since then would have been quite different: it would have been nearly impossible to get Luria to agree to do anything better than tolerate the 'moot in general, and Terran in specific, and most likely, we would have been at war with them, probably leading to their collapse much sooner.

And whether or not you would have enjoyed that outcome, it's pretty obvious that it's not something that is good for Terran.

Quote
Other instances of crazy or malicious characters gaining power are perfectly fine from a realism standpoint. Crazies are easy to manipulate and the malicious are probably sociopaths willing to lie, cheat and bribe their way to success. It actually makes more sense for them to gain power than for the goody-two-shoes, altruistic big brother types.

It may make more sense for them to seek power, but it doesn't mean it makes more sense to hand it to them.

Like it or not, the vast majority of characters in BM are played as being relatively upstanding and of noble disposition. They dislike a bully (even if they are, themelves, bullies), they will support defense over first strike, and they generally oppose unnecessary cruelty.

Thus, someone who bullies, attacks without provocation, and wantonly slaughters the populace is likely to make a lot of enemies fast.

Again, you may think that's fun—but in terms of what's best for the realm, it's really not.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 18, 2013, 03:13:34 PM
Quote
Ah, but you see a lot of that stuff could only be known to the highest echelons of the realm. From my point of view the debacle was solely about him making his misclick and half heartedly proposing a power grab.

I didn't really care that he did it - bad things are going to happen when you're the boss. It's how you handle them that matters.

He screwed up royally in deciding that he was going to employ the opportunity to try and bring down all of the dukes at once. Bringing down one duke is hard enough. He decided he was going to get rid of all of them ... by referendum.

It was a pretty classic case of power-mad tantrum: ineffective lever-pulling (protesting Kale?), conspiracy theories, shouting. But then it was a wonder that the guy was ever put in charge to begin with.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on March 18, 2013, 03:17:15 PM
It was a pretty classic case of power-mad tantrum: ineffective lever-pulling (protesting Kale?), conspiracy theories, shouting. But then it was a wonder that the guy was ever put in charge to begin with.

Character family name is Mayhem, right?

Methinks that may have been a clue....
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 18, 2013, 03:26:24 PM
Character family name is Mayhem, right?

Methinks that may have been a clue....
He is talking about Erasmus I believe, not Kas.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on March 18, 2013, 03:31:09 PM
He is talking about Erasmus I believe, not Kas.

Oh, sorry. I got confused.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: kobetheist on March 18, 2013, 08:26:32 PM
He was a villain right up until the moment that he (and his OOC buddies) got caught, and then he was just another griefer, kinda-sorta abusing game mechanics to exact revenge. Don't confuse villainy with being a troll, or being chronically predisposed to betraying your own team.  ;)

Can you please explain how I, the player of Erasmus, abused game mechanics?

Not sure what you mean by "being chronically predisposed to betraying your own team" but I'll say that Erasmus never did anything to betray Terran (excluding his distrust and attempts to discredit Hireshemont near the end, which he saw as trying to help/save Terran) until after he felt he was betrayed by them due to all the threats and protests engineered by Hireshmont; his info was used to help Terran and D'Hara, the "spy network" was a one-way street into the Senate and Strategium of Terran--rarely used and usually unknowingly by the people he got the info from, and his other "activities" of torture and murder were pretty well known and tolerated in Terran for quite a while, including by the Chief Magistrate. I don't deny the griefing (if you mean destroying granaries/renaming recruitment centers in his region when it became apparent they were gonna ban him and try to kill him)  to get revenge, though, and still have (or had, now that I hear Terran is getting jacked up badly right now) plans for more against Hireshemont and his guys ;) BUT, I didn't see any of that as abuse, and it seemed like something the character would do out of spite and hatred.


And, Kas was ruler of Terran?!? I'm sorry I missed that, that guy always said the funnest and craziest things :)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 18, 2013, 08:47:58 PM
I was referring to Kas, not Erasmus. Not even in the same league.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 18, 2013, 08:54:25 PM
Can you please explain how I, the player of Erasmus, abused game mechanics?

Not sure what you mean by "being chronically predisposed to betraying your own team" but I'll say that Erasmus never did anything to betray Terran (excluding his distrust and attempts to discredit Hireshemont near the end, which he saw as trying to help/save Terran) until after he felt he was betrayed by them due to all the threats and protests engineered by Hireshmont; his info was used to help Terran and D'Hara, the "spy network" was a one-way street into the Senate and Strategium of Terran--rarely used and usually unknowingly by the people he got the info from, and his other "activities" of torture and murder were pretty well known and tolerated in Terran for quite a while, including by the Chief Magistrate. I don't deny the griefing (if you mean destroying granaries/renaming recruitment centers in his region when it became apparent they were gonna ban him and try to kill him)  to get revenge, though, and still have (or had, now that I hear Terran is getting jacked up badly right now) plans for more against Hireshemont and his guys ;) BUT, I didn't see any of that as abuse, and it seemed like something the character would do out of spite and hatred.


And, Kas was ruler of Terran?!? I'm sorry I missed that, that guy always said the funnest and craziest things :)


I will say that the whole incident with Erasmus was a lot of fun. Everyone knew he did some weird torture stuff with advys, but we all just kind of looked the other way because Erasmus was a competent judge and noble in the realm who contributed. Then all of the info coming out about the Hunters of the Sacred Right, etc. was really interesting, turned into this big thing, and then the power struggle to remove a Judge was pretty epic.

The Erasmus debacle was a lot of fun and I think it remained fairly free of any hard OOC feelings, which is always great.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on March 18, 2013, 09:21:45 PM
Can you please explain how I, the player of Erasmus, abused game mechanics?

Using elections to hop around from vacant lordship to lordship to avoid being banned under the "new lord" protections. Wasn't there an entire thread about this?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: kobetheist on March 18, 2013, 09:41:49 PM

I will say that the whole incident with Erasmus was a lot of fun. Everyone knew he did some weird torture stuff with advys, but we all just kind of looked the other way because Erasmus was a competent judge and noble in the realm who contributed. Then all of the info coming out about the Hunters of the Sacred Right, etc. was really interesting, turned into this big thing, and then the power struggle to remove a Judge was pretty epic.

The Erasmus debacle was a lot of fun and I think it remained fairly free of any hard OOC feelings, which is always great.

Yeah, definitely. Was great and everyone in the realm seemed to enjoy the brief excitement and drama. And all the IG rivalry aside between Erasmus and Hireshemont, I always though his player was a very successful ruler because he made a lot of effort to involve everyone and spice things up when they would get boring.

Using elections to hop around from vacant lordship to lordship to avoid being banned under the "new lord" protections. Wasn't there an entire thread about this?

I do remember reading you guys talking about that way back when, but no one directly accused me of anything so I didn't feel the need to defend myself like now. And from what I remember, many of you devs didn't even know about that thing... so what makes you think I would've known, and then assume that I did know and do it with that intention?Erasmus ran for that election (only one) in the hopes of getting a quick boost of tax gold before he left for zuma lands, seeing an easy opportunity since no one else was running; and funny thing was 3 or 4 other nobles voted for him too :)  I had no idea what was going on with Erasmus' ban or why they were waiting but figured it had to do with a trial they kept alluding to , and Erasmus figured the delay was from his psudo-confession/mocking rant to SA about repenting and seeking forgiveness for his crimes. I had no idea about any new lord protections.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 18, 2013, 11:17:28 PM
Terran always seemed to me a realm set up to sort of 'get by' while the 'moot was the 'real' organization.  Short of rebellion, there is no way for any one person in Terran to get anything done. The Chief Magistrate is a vote-counter.

I've never seen a Republic work in BM without a strong central government, and both Kale and Hireshmont have (on purpose?) seen to it that that never occurs.

That's perfectly fine IC, but as a player in the realm it's made it a bit dull because all the real decisions get made by the 'moot and there is no feudal hierarchy at all. There is no reason to give a !@#$ what happens in the region next door, or who the up and coming knights are. It's just election after election and the only person who ever gets any criticism is poor Kale because his is the only job with regularly quantifiable results, even if those results (at least in this most recent case) have more to do with 'realm with no cohesion can't move as one army' and less to do with poor generalship. There isn't really even any politicking because at this point all the little mini-groups in Terran just loathe each other.

But this has been apparent forever. Terran needed to be recycled into a new realm a long time ago, but because it would have threatened the 'moot, that didn't happen. What authority does exist is typically bent toward defending the status quo and/or electing someone who won't rock the boat too much with respect to SA or the 'moot.

I find this view to be quite intriguing, really, because as far as I can remember, there's nothing the 'moot elders can agree to without support from the various senates. The Treaty limits every realm's sovereignty, but it also can't dictate anything to them...

Using elections to hop around from vacant lordship to lordship to avoid being banned under the "new lord" protections. Wasn't there an entire thread about this?

Wtf, why does this protection even exist?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 18, 2013, 11:19:31 PM
Yeah, definitely. Was great and everyone in the realm seemed to enjoy the brief excitement and drama. And all the IG rivalry aside between Erasmus and Hireshemont, I always though his player was a very successful ruler because he made a lot of effort to involve everyone and spice things up when they would get boring.

I do remember reading you guys talking about that way back when, but no one directly accused me of anything so I didn't feel the need to defend myself like now. And from what I remember, many of you devs didn't even know about that thing... so what makes you think I would've known, and then assume that I did know and do it with that intention?Erasmus ran for that election (only one) in the hopes of getting a quick boost of tax gold before he left for zuma lands, seeing an easy opportunity since no one else was running; and funny thing was 3 or 4 other nobles voted for him too :)  I had no idea what was going on with Erasmus' ban or why they were waiting but figured it had to do with a trial they kept alluding to , and Erasmus figured the delay was from his psudo-confession/mocking rant to SA about repenting and seeking forgiveness for his crimes. I had no idea about any new lord protections.

Erasmus was an awesome character.

It made me sad it ended the way it did: I really was hoping that Erasmus could be a trigger for Hireshmont's plunge into darkness. Their conversations about peasants and Erasmus' odd hobbies could really have been a segue to something bigger. But then Erasmus got involved with Hireshmont's political rivals. He changed from being a personally evil but reasonably neutral politician to being a political rival with a wee bit too much power. So Hireshmont had to address the situation.

I will say: I thought it was awesome when Erasmus arrested Hireshmont. It had never, ever occurred to me to do such a thing, but it was really a clever move.

Simpler times.

Wtf, why does this protection even exist?

I don't remember. It is a bit frustrating that we weren't able to get a ban on Erasmus... but such is the way of things.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: ^ban^ on March 20, 2013, 02:51:55 AM
I don't remember. It is a bit frustrating that we weren't able to get a ban on Erasmus... but such is the way of things.

It may have been (be?) a remnant of the time when you could purchase region lordships.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 20, 2013, 02:58:12 AM
It may have been (be?) a remnant of the time when you could purchase region lordships.
I know its from some old feature that is no longer in practice. I think Tim specified which one when the incident happened.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on March 20, 2013, 03:13:30 AM
I believe that's correct—the new-lord-protection is from when you could purchase lordships from within your realm, and Judges had to be forcibly reminded that in-character, they should at least give the "ancient claim" on the region the benefit of the doubt.

The extreme disconnect between the logical in-character reaction and the logical out-of-character reaction was what eventually led to the death of that feature (buying lordships within your realm, that is).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 21, 2013, 02:25:01 AM
Is it me, or is this war finally winding down?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 21, 2013, 02:25:41 AM
Is it me, or is this war finally winding down?

There are 30,000 CS of Aurvandil soldiers about to drive Chateau Saffalore rogue.

Yeah it's winding down.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 21, 2013, 02:26:20 AM
well...!@#$.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 21, 2013, 02:27:53 AM
Ah the sweet taste of victory. Good game moot. Now lets be FWENDS!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 21, 2013, 02:35:46 AM
Ah the sweet taste of victory. Good game moot. Now lets be FWENDS!

Yeah...

There's gonna be some hardcore anti-SA bitterness in Terran after this I think. See "Stab-in-the-Back Myth" for more details.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on March 21, 2013, 03:00:47 AM
The Farronite Republic will welcome any Terran refugees. *hug*
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: D'Espana on March 21, 2013, 03:11:53 AM
No, no! Come to D'Hara! We have gold and food need and gold and food need! Who wants some shiny toythings when you have those?

Now seriously, that's no good. The only military competent member of the 'Moot is being roflstomped. D'Hara, watch your ass from now onwards...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 21, 2013, 03:23:17 AM
There's gonna be some hardcore anti-SA bitterness in Terran after this I think. See "Stab-in-the-Back Myth" for more details.
Well, you shot yourself in the foot the way it was handled. My character still doesn't even know that Aurvandil attacked your capital, let alone that it's almost rogue. Hell, I don't think I even heard, IC, about Aurvandil's landing in Larur.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 21, 2013, 03:45:09 AM
Well, you shot yourself in the foot the way it was handled. My character still doesn't even know that Aurvandil attacked your capital, let alone that it's almost rogue. Hell, I don't think I even heard, IC, about Aurvandil's landing in Larur.

I so badly want to say " I told you all so" but I'll hold my tongue...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 21, 2013, 04:20:13 AM
Well, you shot yourself in the foot the way it was handled. My character still doesn't even know that Aurvandil attacked your capital, let alone that it's almost rogue. Hell, I don't think I even heard, IC, about Aurvandil's landing in Larur.

Come to think of it, neither does MY character... :-\
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 21, 2013, 04:25:12 AM
Come to think of it, neither does MY character... :-\
Terran does good at getting allies, it does bad at communicating with allies though. That is their diplomatic downfall. They need to convey their need for aid, instead of just assume it is expected.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Arundel on March 21, 2013, 06:44:22 AM
Terran does good at getting allies, it does bad at communicating with allies though. That is their diplomatic downfall. They need to convey their need for aid, instead of just assume it is expected.

Indeed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 21, 2013, 08:16:28 AM
Well, you shot yourself in the foot the way it was handled. My character still doesn't even know that Aurvandil attacked your capital, let alone that it's almost rogue. Hell, I don't think I even heard, IC, about Aurvandil's landing in Larur.

They were in Chesland before we knew they had landed, because the lord of the region they landed in (surprise!) was an Aurvandil/Asylon spy.

Oh, and the founder of the Anti-Aurvandil Alliance. Hip-hip, hoorah!

Honestly, even if we'd notified you as soon as we heard rumors of a naval assault, you never could have arrived in time. Aurvandil moves quickly and in great force.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 21, 2013, 08:22:07 AM
Honestly, even if we'd notified you as soon as we heard rumors of a naval assault, you never could have arrived in time. Aurvandil moves quickly and in great force.

This is basically why Kale didn't bring it up to anyone: he just previously sent out urgent "Come to our aid against Asylon!" and when we learned Aurvandil was coming (only a few days prior to their landing) it was way to late to get help and any aid that did come would arrive weeks after they were sitting back at home in Aurvandil.


EDIT: Also, funny thing is everyone in Terran is pretty apathetic to it all...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on March 21, 2013, 08:51:30 AM
EDIT: Also, funny thing is everyone in Terran is pretty apathetic to it all...

The thing is that you don't sound so apathetic on the forums. But if no one knows in-game....
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 21, 2013, 11:33:38 AM
This is basically why Kale didn't bring it up to anyone: he just previously sent out urgent "Come to our aid against Asylon!" and when we learned Aurvandil was coming (only a few days prior to their landing) it was way to late to get help and any aid that did come would arrive weeks after they were sitting back at home in Aurvandil.



My char knew Aurvandil was comming, and I am pretty sure he told several Terranese nobles, in his "strange" attempt to save lives.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 21, 2013, 11:35:37 AM
Come to think of it, neither does MY character... :-\

We just got a huge battle rumor, no? But indeed, I didn't know they were about to strike either...

I so badly want to say " I told you all so" but I'll hold my tongue...

You do realize that saying "I really want to say X, but won't say it", is, in fact, saying X. And Asylon had little to do with it, Aurvandil was plenty able to do it on their own.

Honestly, even if we'd notified you as soon as we heard rumors of a naval assault, you never could have arrived in time. Aurvandil moves quickly and in great force.

Well... I often see that message in various places, and never report it, because thus far, 100% of the time it has been a realm-mate (with or without units) or an ally. If the message was truly reserved for enemies, people would take more heed to it...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 21, 2013, 02:06:41 PM

You do realize that saying "I really want to say X, but won't say it", is, in fact, saying X. And Asylon had little to do with it, Aurvandil was plenty able to do it on their own.
Its called a sense of humour...

And ok I have noticed this a few times in this thread and its funny but you guys belittle Asylons part in the war. I have also noticed that the hatred for Asylon lately has hilariously outstripped Aurvandiils. Does it matter? No, because after all is said and done Asylon survived and outlasted the Moot even though it was isolated and strategically inferior and without a massive alliance. And is still snubbing their nose at the entire world. Even if we are beaten to a pulp tommorow everyone in Asylons can still hold their head up proud for putting on agood show, bravery and just straight up balls to the wall cocky strategy. Perhaps the Moot won the diplomacy war and the popularity contest of Dwilight, big deal. Asylon won its own contest, with itself against the world in a kingdom that wasnt supposed to survive its founding. We are proud of being Asylon. And we will take that spirit everywhere we go. And funny enough we aren't even done yet.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 21, 2013, 06:28:05 PM
it matter? No, because after all is said and done Asylon survived and outlasted the Moot even though it was isolated and strategically inferior and without a massive alliance. And is still snubbing their nose at the entire world.

Bro.

The Moot isn't dead.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 21, 2013, 06:38:26 PM
Bro.

The Moot isn't dead.

In the same way a human vegetable isn't.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 21, 2013, 07:09:01 PM
Bro.

The Moot isn't dead.

 ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 21, 2013, 07:40:18 PM
In the same way a human vegetable isn't.

Mr. Potatohead would like to have a word with you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 21, 2013, 07:42:10 PM
Mr. Potatohead would like to have a word with you.

He can't. I stole his mouth.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 21, 2013, 08:37:15 PM
Said the spider to the fly... Come into my web.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 21, 2013, 08:38:47 PM
Said the spider to the fly... Come into my web.

Then the spider realized the fly was a Tarantula Hawk, which proceeded to paralyze the spider, drag it into its hole, and lay eggs inside of it. Not long after, little tarantula hawks were born and proceeded to eat the poor spider from the inside.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 21, 2013, 09:10:00 PM
Then the spider realized the fly was a Tarantula Hawk, which proceeded to paralyze the spider, drag it into its hole, and lay eggs inside of it. Not long after, little tarantula hawks were born and proceeded to eat the poor spider from the inside.

 :o
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 21, 2013, 09:36:48 PM
:o
Perfect emoticon for it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 22, 2013, 12:16:15 AM
Then the spider realized the fly was a Tarantula Hawk, which proceeded to paralyze the spider, drag it into its hole, and lay eggs inside of it. Not long after, little tarantula hawks were born and proceeded to eat the poor spider from the inside.

Wonderful.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 22, 2013, 01:14:01 AM
And welcome Astrum, you have been expected for some time now, how pleasant that you finaly drop by, may I offer some food and drinks?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 22, 2013, 01:20:45 AM
And welcome Astrum, you have been expected for some time now, how pleasant that you finaly drop by, may I offer some food and drinks?
If you give it all to us, that does make things a bit easier. (I know you only offered some but we will just take it all.)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 22, 2013, 01:22:07 AM
Don't trust him, it's probably contaminated with bloodmoon.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 22, 2013, 01:23:52 AM
Don't trust him, it's probably contaminated with bloodmoon.
D'hara doesn't need it, we just don't want them to have any.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 22, 2013, 02:07:35 AM
Yeah! Astrum finally showed up. This party is rocking now.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAEzAjFZPys
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 22, 2013, 04:51:04 AM
Terran in the south, Astrum in the north.

We need FR to get in on the party and it'll be a full house.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: cenrae on March 22, 2013, 06:30:34 AM
Oh FR would love to gain Itau that is for sure...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 22, 2013, 11:45:11 AM
Oh FR would love to gain Itau that is for sure...

I wouldn't mind setting up a colony in Koshtlom, right by Chénier's Sea. :P

One that swears fealty to me, that is. I wouldn't actually go live there, obviously.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 22, 2013, 12:39:11 PM
Terran in the south, Astrum in the north.

We need FR to get in on the party and it'll be a full house.

Isnt your kingdom being sacked? You are delusional. Good luck this winter.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 22, 2013, 01:20:26 PM
He he he ... if there were a region named after my family, I would *totally* go live there.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 22, 2013, 02:55:24 PM
I wouldn't mind setting up a colony in Koshtlom, right by Chénier's Sea. :P

One that swears fealty to me, that is. I wouldn't actually go live there, obviously.

You can't even properly defend or parttake in the war to save the Moot. How you going to get to Koshtlom?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 22, 2013, 04:03:12 PM
Isnt your kingdom being sacked? You are delusional. Good luck this winter.

I have no kingdom.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 22, 2013, 05:04:05 PM
I have no Republic.

There fixed...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 22, 2013, 10:25:27 PM
You can't even properly defend or parttake in the war to save the Moot. How you going to get to Koshtlom?

Terran is not the 'moot and the 'moot is not Terran. An important partner, sure, but I see no threat to D'Hara or Barca. As for getting to Koshtlom... with the number of armies converging on your realm, that ought to be an easy task.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: sharkattack on March 22, 2013, 10:47:00 PM
It seems Terran will sign peace soon and Aurvandil will get a colony? near the North, time for Aurvandil to focus on SA ?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 22, 2013, 11:12:12 PM
If Asylon gets steamrolled, I see things changing. The 'moot may not have been doing that great pre-Asylon, but if Asylon gets steamrolled, the north will really be involved then and its much easier to keep them involved, then to get them involved.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 23, 2013, 12:17:32 AM
It seems Terran will sign peace soon and Aurvandil will get a colony? near the North, time for Aurvandil to focus on SA ?

lol.

Don't get ahead of yourself.

Aurvandil's friends in Terran haven't won yet.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 23, 2013, 12:23:42 AM
lol.

Don't get ahead of yourself.

Aurvandil's friends in Terran haven't won yet.

You mean, Hireshmont hasn't won yet? :P

No victory in getting destroyed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 23, 2013, 12:39:33 AM
Hireshmont must be smoking something. There are not (nor ever were) any plans for a colony, at least not that were made clear to Quintus.

They control his castle and he's their prisoner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parole
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 23, 2013, 01:02:40 AM
lol.

Don't get ahead of yourself.

Aurvandil's friends in Terran haven't won yet.

But Aurvandil has. We own the Terran's capital. Check and mate. What I feel bad about is that you guys have to talk to Allomere instead of Mendicant. Mendicant has a soft spot. Allomere...he scares me and im on his team
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 23, 2013, 01:05:37 AM
But Aurvandil has. We own the Terran's capital. Check and mate. What I feel bad about is that you guys have to talk to Allomere instead of Mendicant. Mendicant has a soft spot. Allomere...he scares me and im on his team
So are you guys going to elect Allomere? And you haven't took it over so you don't own it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 23, 2013, 01:22:06 AM
If Asylon gets steamrolled, I see things changing. The 'moot may not have been doing that great pre-Asylon, but if Asylon gets steamrolled, the north will really be involved then and its much easier to keep them involved, then to get them involved.


Steamrolled by who?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 23, 2013, 01:28:25 AM

Steamrolled by who?

D'Hara.  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 23, 2013, 01:42:24 AM
D'Hara.  8)
Astrum, and hopefully Terran once Aurvandil leaves. That, and perhaps Iashalur or FR help some.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 23, 2013, 01:50:02 AM
Hireshmont must be smoking something. There are not (nor ever were) any plans for a colony, at least not that were made clear to Quintus.

They control his castle and he's their prisoner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parole

His friends at odds, what will Kale do!?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 23, 2013, 01:55:39 AM
Astrum, and hopefully Terran once Aurvandil leaves. That, and perhaps Iashalur or FR help some.

You've needed all that just to fight Aurvandiil, you'll need a lot more to take on Asylon.  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 23, 2013, 02:43:19 AM
His friends at odds, what will Kale do!?

I almost wish I'd had a proper scheme to oppose Hireshmont because that would've been fun. There's not really a 'Quintus' side' in this that I can see, though. An army took over his castle and he promised to behave. If Terran falls, it won't be because Quintus didn't fight to the last man.

In other words, even if Quintus does do something to defy Hireshmont's plans (whatever those plans are), I'm not sure I see how it could be a strong enough move to make a difference. At best he could save Aurvandil a week of effort.

I'm all in favor of intrigues and there were some discussed a while back, but they didn't happen for various reasons. The 'senate trial' seems like a weirdly-timed power play against someone who just lost the power he had. So Hireshmont could ban Quintus...Aurvandil takes the Chateau. Hireshmont doesn't ban Quintus...Aurvandil takes the Chateau. If Vellos has a rabbit to pull out of his hat, Quintus being Duke or not or banned or not can hardly make a difference.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 23, 2013, 03:15:55 AM
You've needed all that just to fight Aurvandiil, you'll need a lot more to take on Asylon.  8)

Aurvandil is remote, strong, and apparently packed with cheaters. Asylon, as far as I know, has none of that.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 23, 2013, 03:50:21 AM
Aurvandil is remote, strong, and apparently packed with cheaters. Asylon, as far as I know, has none of that.
Only one of those things actually mattered, they were too far away for our allies to do anything, but Asylon is right by them.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 23, 2013, 04:30:52 AM
Aurvandil is remote, strong, and apparently packed with cheaters. Asylon, as far as I know, has none of that.

Asylon has Asylonians... 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 23, 2013, 04:32:11 AM
Only one of those things actually mattered, they were too far away for our allies to do anything, but Asylon is right by them.

Once they get to Asylon they wont last long...  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 23, 2013, 04:36:23 AM
Once they get to Asylon they wont last long...  8)
Against your 12k-15k CS army? I am so scared. Astrum's forces they will bring could take that out.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Velax on March 23, 2013, 04:59:37 AM
Against your 12k-15k CS army? I am so scared. Astrum's forces they will bring could take that out.

You were scared enough of it before Astrum and SA got involved.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 23, 2013, 05:03:29 AM
Against your 12k-15k CS army? I am so scared. Astrum's forces they will bring could take that out.

 ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on March 23, 2013, 05:17:43 AM
There are some interesting things afoot.  It seems that an ex Iashalurian and a Terran have tried their hand at intrigue and may have ruined some of the northern realms plans.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 23, 2013, 06:44:49 AM
You were scared enough of it before Astrum and SA got involved.
i was never afraid of it, as I had no doubt SA would get involved. Terran obviously can't win against Aurvandil and Asylon, even if Barca and D'hara help.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 23, 2013, 08:24:01 AM
I almost wish I'd had a proper scheme to oppose Hireshmont because that would've been fun. There's not really a 'Quintus' side' in this that I can see, though. An army took over his castle and he promised to behave. If Terran falls, it won't be because Quintus didn't fight to the last man.

In other words, even if Quintus does do something to defy Hireshmont's plans (whatever those plans are), I'm not sure I see how it could be a strong enough move to make a difference. At best he could save Aurvandil a week of effort.

I'm all in favor of intrigues and there were some discussed a while back, but they didn't happen for various reasons. The 'senate trial' seems like a weirdly-timed power play against someone who just lost the power he had. So Hireshmont could ban Quintus...Aurvandil takes the Chateau. Hireshmont doesn't ban Quintus...Aurvandil takes the Chateau. If Vellos has a rabbit to pull out of his hat, Quintus being Duke or not or banned or not can hardly make a difference.

It's not a power play.

Hireshmont, as you note, has nothing to gain here: and any chance he may have had of securing personal mercy for himself (which was basically impossible) will certainly be ruined by punishing the one noble in Terran who has thus far taken such an option.

What Hireshmont is interested in is making sure that there is a republic of Terran after all of this: and not just a realm called Terran. He's asserting the superiority of the Senate and the Republic over any individual Senator.

Here's another way of thinking about it:

When I created Hireshmont II, I did so intending to play a very idealistic character who would be strictly law-and-order all the way, and deeply committed to a lofty ideal of nobility. The polar opposite of his father, who was an opportunist and pragmatist who would do anything he had to in order to achieve his (sometimes dubious) objectives.

Hireshmont is the kind of person who doesn't speed on the highway even if there aren't cops because its the Law and the Law is the manifestation of the Good. And when he brings a legal suit, he does so because its the Law– you don't have to think any more about reasons. When a lord negotiates without Senatorial permission, he attacks that lord. When Rynn negotiates with Luria without working alongside the Moot, he attacks Rynn. When a Chief Magistrate sticks his toe over the legal line, he attacks him. In Terran's early days, when a series of Generals tried to veto dukes' picks for marshals, Hireshmont the duke attacked them. He's an obsessive treaty-writer, law-giver, and idealist about the nature of order and law. If you think back on Hireshmont that interpretation will explain most everything he does. And it explains the legal suit now. Quintus broke the law. Even if breaking the law saved Terran, Quintus has got to pay, because a Terran without the law is a Terran better off dead.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: sharkattack on March 23, 2013, 10:32:14 AM
Quote
"Secession   (23 minutes ago)
message to Everyone on Dwilight
The duchy of Phantaria has seceded from Terran and formed a new realm called Phantaria."


 :o
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: mikm on March 23, 2013, 11:12:45 AM
This winter came just in time.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 23, 2013, 03:10:19 PM
Quote
When a lord negotiates without Senatorial permission, he attacks that lord

I understand the characterization but either you or Hireshmont are mistaking 'surrender' for 'negotiation.'

I don't usually like to talk about this stuff OOCly because I enjoy a good intrigue, and I very nearly didn't RP the surrender of the Chateau (which will continue) because I knew some people would go 'wtf why is he bowing and scraping to those people why isn't he spitting in their eye.'

What he's doing is an absolutely typical medieval surrender: find out what the bad guys want (in the short term, like 'what are your terms to stop blowing up my shizzle', not 'what are your goals for this war' as Hireshmont keeps asking them) and then give his word that he won't oppose them while they're around on this particular trip. I was surprised they even accepted since they don't gain very much for having done so but they have to trust Quintus now. Striking colors, turning over the sword, that would be grounds for exactly what Hireshmont was doing if there hadn't been a battle, or if Quintus was about to betray the Republic.

I've had characters in Hireshmont's position before where they've gone after people for trying to strike deals on behalf of the realm when not empowered to do so, and that's definitely a legit choice. But this particular move makes me think more 'Hireshmont has gone Citizen Kane' than Inspector Javert. Particularly if the goal was to insure that the Republic of Terran continued to exist. Quintus may be an old bastard but he was one of the few people propping the place up. Once you lost Dallas and Labell you were really down to two or maybe three such people in the whole realm.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: ^ban^ on March 23, 2013, 04:02:30 PM
When I created Hireshmont II, I did so intending to play a very idealistic character who would be strictly law-and-order all the way, and deeply committed to a lofty ideal of nobility. The polar opposite of his father, who was an opportunist and pragmatist who would do anything he had to in order to achieve his (sometimes dubious) objectives.

Hireshmont II is - in many ways - not only the polar opposite of his father, but also his mother, and brother, each in different ways. Considering Retravic's need to constantly have more power, and Valachi's fanaticism, Hireshmont II wasis probably the best of the whole bunch.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 23, 2013, 08:50:40 PM
I understand the characterization but either you or Hireshmont are mistaking 'surrender' for 'negotiation.'

I don't usually like to talk about this stuff OOCly because I enjoy a good intrigue, and I very nearly didn't RP the surrender of the Chateau (which will continue) because I knew some people would go 'wtf why is he bowing and scraping to those people why isn't he spitting in their eye.'

What he's doing is an absolutely typical medieval surrender: find out what the bad guys want (in the short term, like 'what are your terms to stop blowing up my shizzle', not 'what are your goals for this war' as Hireshmont keeps asking them) and then give his word that he won't oppose them while they're around on this particular trip. I was surprised they even accepted since they don't gain very much for having done so but they have to trust Quintus now. Striking colors, turning over the sword, that would be grounds for exactly what Hireshmont was doing if there hadn't been a battle, or if Quintus was about to betray the Republic.

I've had characters in Hireshmont's position before where they've gone after people for trying to strike deals on behalf of the realm when not empowered to do so, and that's definitely a legit choice. But this particular move makes me think more 'Hireshmont has gone Citizen Kane' than Inspector Javert. Particularly if the goal was to insure that the Republic of Terran continued to exist. Quintus may be an old bastard but he was one of the few people propping the place up. Once you lost Dallas and Labell you were really down to two or maybe three such people in the whole realm.

Oh I know it was a typically medieval surrender.

Hireshmont is arguing that Quintus had no right to surrender; that only the Magistracy can offer a typically Medieval surrender. He was asserting the primacy of the Senate.

But now the end of Terran has basically come. It'll be neat to see what comes in its place. Honestly, I thought Hireshmont was done for after the Erasmus affair– I've been shocked at how I've managed to rehabilitate his career. I guess we'll see now if I'll be able to pull anything out of this debacle.

Well played to Kale though. I've known about his Phantarian contingency plan with Labell for several RL years, but I completely forgot about it in this instance. And now he's played his trump card. Hireshmont really has nothing left.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on March 23, 2013, 09:06:31 PM
Isnt that a Strategic Secession though?  By my interpretation of the rules I would say yes, but I am not sure and so I opened up a topic on it in the Question and Answer part of the Courthouse.   
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 23, 2013, 09:42:45 PM
It wouldn't work to Kale's advantage to make it anything like a strategic secession. If he just sets up Terran Mk II, Aurvandil and Asylon will show up and clobber it.

Besides which, I don't think that all of Terran is going with it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 23, 2013, 09:55:27 PM
Quote
Hireshmont is arguing that Quintus had no right to surrender; that only the Magistracy can offer a typically Medieval surrender

There is no precedent for this, even in the Roman Republic. Provinces still had governors and governors would make that call. The Senate can surrender for the whole realm, which Quintus obviously can't do; but they don't collectively hold every castle.

Even so - since precedent is hardly required - seems to be in the camp of fiddling while Rome burns.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 23, 2013, 10:23:40 PM
But now the end of Terran has basically come. It'll be neat to see what comes in its place. Honestly, I thought Hireshmont was done for after the Erasmus affair– I've been shocked at how I've managed to rehabilitate his career. I guess we'll see now if I'll be able to pull anything out of this debacle.

Well played to Kale though. I've known about his Phantarian contingency plan with Labell for several RL years, but I completely forgot about it in this instance. And now he's played his trump card. Hireshmont really has nothing left.

Maybe it's about time to break out that interesting Zuma orphan you've been holding back for so long?  ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 24, 2013, 03:14:05 AM
Maybe it's about time to break out that interesting Zuma orphan you've been holding back for so long?  ;)

Problem: He's in Riombara.

Hireshmont still has a career in the church to conclude before I dispose of him in the first of Walfurgisnacht.

I think launching my characters into magical fire or mystical sacrifice is going to be a trope for this line of characters.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 24, 2013, 03:16:31 AM
There is no precedent for this, even in the Roman Republic. Provinces still had governors and governors would make that call. The Senate can surrender for the whole realm, which Quintus obviously can't do; but they don't collectively hold every castle.

Even so - since precedent is hardly required - seems to be in the camp of fiddling while Rome burns.

Hireshmont is arguing that they do collectively hold every castle: that every noble has a duty to the republic prior to their own lands.

I the player do not expect other characters to side with Hireshmont. But this argument is a logical necessity based on his whole career. Obviously it's an extremely restrictive position– but that doesn't matter.

Hireshmont is fiddling while Rome burns because he believes that Rome without music is worthless.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on March 24, 2013, 03:26:32 AM
Hireshmont is arguing that they do collectively hold every castle: that every noble has a duty to the republic prior to their own lands.

This is called Luria. Stabbity knows this. He's trolling you, I think.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Arundel on March 24, 2013, 04:47:44 AM
Hireshmont is arguing that they do collectively hold every castle: that every noble has a duty to the republic prior to their own lands.

This is called Luria.

I sure as heck hope it's not Luria. I most certainly have no intention of promulgating this kind of behavior.
Riombara has this behavior, and it really irks me. I would hate to have that in my realm as well.

On the note of Luria, I must say everything progressed quickly, without much notification from Terran. We promised food, gold, and military aid should things get dire, but I've not heard a word beyond what's been said in SA channels. Sup with all the silence, holmes?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 24, 2013, 04:52:45 AM

I sure as heck hope it's not Luria. I most certainly have no intention of promulgating this kind of behavior.
Riombara has this behavior, and it really irks me. I would hate to have that in my realm as well.

On the note of Luria, I must say everything progressed quickly, without much notification from Terran. We promised food, gold, and military aid should things get dire, but I've not heard a word beyond what's been said in SA channels. Sup with all the silence, holmes?
More support, for what I said is Terran's big diplomatic failure. They get all these allies, then tell them nothing. No body can help you if you don't tell them that bad !@#$ is happening.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on March 24, 2013, 05:18:11 AM
Terran was boring and uninteresting. Now that they are gone for good, I hope things become more interesting in the southern west corner of Dwilight ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 24, 2013, 07:46:03 AM

I sure as heck hope it's not Luria. I most certainly have no intention of promulgating this kind of behavior.
Riombara has this behavior, and it really irks me. I would hate to have that in my realm as well.

On the note of Luria, I must say everything progressed quickly, without much notification from Terran. We promised food, gold, and military aid should things get dire, but I've not heard a word beyond what's been said in SA channels. Sup with all the silence, holmes?

Its happened too fast to react practically.

For example: our newly elected Chief Magistrate... is now in prison.

Go figure.

The silence is the silence of hopelessness. There's nothing to be done.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 24, 2013, 08:15:40 AM
Its happened too fast to react practically.

For example: our newly elected Chief Magistrate... is now in prison.

Go figure.

The silence is the silence of hopelessness. There's nothing to be done.

His unit kept attacking the walls in Shokalom for reason, even though our realms are neutral. I don't know why unless he was set on aggressive. There are other Terran units in Phantaria that haven't triggered combat I don't think.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 24, 2013, 08:28:54 AM
Quote
Foreign Leave   (27 minutes ago)
Mendicant Anhangar, High Sovereign of Aurvandil, Royal of Aurvandil, Duke of Candiels, Margrave of Candiels has abdicated (automatically, due to inactivity).

 :o
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 24, 2013, 08:35:44 AM
:o

Maybe click around on some accounts in Aurvandil for more info.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 24, 2013, 09:04:51 AM
Maybe click around on some accounts in Aurvandil for more info.

Mendicant's account is flagged as locked by the GM's.

I also counted 12 total account locks in Aurvandil (that's like... 18% of the realm).

I don't know what that means though.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on March 24, 2013, 09:10:03 AM
Maybe click around on some accounts in Aurvandil for more info.
... Or Iashalur.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on March 24, 2013, 09:11:07 AM
lolololololololol that's so hilarious
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Arrakis on March 24, 2013, 10:21:54 AM
... Or Iashalur.

Hey, Iashalur has only one so far... :)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on March 24, 2013, 12:09:42 PM
Well, this has gotten interesting...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on March 24, 2013, 03:14:02 PM
I think this will be good for Aurvandil.   11 accounts.  The one guy controlled Ruler, Judge, 2 Dukes and 7 Lordships.   This will shuffle up Aurvandil and allow some of the other characters to get some positions which I think will strengthen it and make it more close knit.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 24, 2013, 03:33:09 PM
Wish I had a character in Aurvandil... that's a lot of positions to be filled!

Ah, but given the power vacuum and Allison's presence, this could turn out to be Kabrinskia 2.0, correct?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 24, 2013, 03:38:41 PM
We will know in about 4 days if Allison has enough support to grab the reigns.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on March 24, 2013, 03:42:38 PM
I dunno if it will work.  I see 3 factions right now.  Allison, Saxons and other.  Other most likely being Allomere.


Interestingly enough, there are only 3 people legally eligible to fun for the position of High Sovereign.  They have a law that states only cavaliers may run for the position of High Sovereign.  Allison and 2 others are the only cavaliers in the realm and one of those is locked.  So really it is technically between Allison and 1 other...   This will be fun to see if Aurvandil will scrap their own rules.  If anyone else runs they will be committing High Treason.  Which might mean there will be a fundamental shift in the realm.  Can't claim to be honorable and chivalric if your first act to becoming ruler is to commit high treason.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: sharkattack on March 24, 2013, 03:54:31 PM
A lot of stuff will be changed in Aurvandil post Mendicant.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 24, 2013, 03:59:13 PM
Quote
High Treason.

No, they'll be breaking election laws. High treason has a very specific definition.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 24, 2013, 04:02:07 PM
"Cavaliers" or "chevaliers"? I seem to recall that they have some kind of "chevalier" group, or army, or something like that.

@Scarlett: if their laws call it High Treason, then so it is, in their realm.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: sharkattack on March 24, 2013, 04:04:55 PM
"Cavaliers" or "chevaliers"? I seem to recall that they have some kind of "chevalier" group, or army, or something like that.

Yes its a group of chevaliers that i think are only the eligible ones to become High Sovereign. Not sure 100% tho.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 24, 2013, 04:16:54 PM
I thought the Chevaliers just referred to their army. Same thing as a cavalier linguistically. French word for dude on horse gonna mess you up.

Do they actually have to be cavaliers class-wise though? BM treats the cavalier class as a sort of 'double plus knight' but a regular knight is still technically a cavalier if he's fighting battles rather than, say, being a priest.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on March 24, 2013, 04:36:13 PM
Mendicant & Co.'s locks present a valuable lesson in humility: if you're going to cheat, don't come onto the forums and repeatedly protest the unwarranted suspicion that your activity draws. You'll still be caught, by the way—but at least you won't look like a total moron. If it seems as though the gears of justice turn slowly around here, it's because nobody gets paid for their BM volunteer work, and there are many other fires to put out. Don't take it as sign that cheating goes unnoticed. There isn't any combination of techniques that we haven't yet seen. And if you wonder why chasing down cheaters is worth any of the effort, think of all the honest players who had their efforts and experiences ruined by this kind of dishonesty. This is a game, sure, but it's also a community. Cheaters don't respect that. Accordingly, they shouldn't be given any respect in return.

Sorry to threadjack. Back to the topic at hand.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 24, 2013, 04:38:15 PM
Mendicant & Co.'s locks present a valuable lesson in humility: if you're going to cheat, don't come onto the forums and repeatedly protest the unwarranted suspicion that your activity draws. You'll still be caught, by the way—but at least you won't look like a total moron. The gears of justice occasionally turn slowly, because nobody gets paid for their BM volunteer work, but there isn't any combination of techniques that we haven't yet seen. And if you wonder why chasing down cheaters is worth any of the effort, think of all the honest players who had their efforts and experiences ruined by this kind of dishonesty. This is a game, sure, but it's also a community. Cheaters don't respect that. Accordingly, they shouldn't be given any respect in return.

Sorry to threadjack. Back to the topic at hand.

I am quite disappointed/pissed off by the cheating. It is really annoying.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on March 24, 2013, 05:03:53 PM
I am quite disappointed/pissed off by the cheating. It is really annoying.


The worst part is that it tars the reputation of everyone else in Aurvandil.  No matter what it is hard to shake that stigma.  Look at Thulsoma and Aquilegia.  That stigma still follows some of the nobles that were associated with that realm.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 24, 2013, 05:07:36 PM
IIRC there is an actual group in Aurvandil known as the "Chevaliers de Somethingorother". Some kind of elite warrior/advisor or something. If the law states that only Chevaliers can run for High Sovereign, then it must certainly mean that, and no the Cavalier character class.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Velax on March 24, 2013, 05:11:25 PM
If it seems as though the gears of justice turn slowly around here, it's because nobody gets paid for their BM volunteer work, and there are many other fires to put out.

I don't mean to have a go at the volunteers, but this guy and others in Aurvandil were getting accused of cheating every five minutes. And no one thought to check if they actually were?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on March 24, 2013, 05:22:15 PM
I don't mean to have a go at the volunteers, but this guy and others in Aurvandil were getting accused of cheating every five minutes. And no one thought to check if they actually were?

The player of the multis was much more careful than your average multi—otherwise we certainly would have caught him long ago. The automated tools we have currently didn't pick him up, but once we had a tipoff of two specific characters to look at, we found some oddities they had in common. Then we were able to use that as our key to pick up the rest of the characters in the multi cluster.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 24, 2013, 05:34:51 PM
Quote
then it must certainly mean that, and no the Cavalier character class.

Their wiki page has that listed right next to a requirement that the General be a Hero, so I think it may actually be a class requirement.

Is that an IR gray area? It makes plenty of sense ICly but let's say you're a cavalier, you get elected ruler, then you want to change classes for a while and you can't?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Velax on March 24, 2013, 05:41:43 PM
The player of the multis was much more careful than your average multi—otherwise we certainly would have caught him long ago. The automated tools we have currently didn't pick him up, but once we had a tipoff of two specific characters to look at, we found some oddities they had in common. Then we were able to use that as our key to pick up the rest of the characters in the multi cluster.

Fair enough. Good that they were caught. Were these characters just on Dwilight?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 24, 2013, 05:51:14 PM
No, there were other character on other islands.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 24, 2013, 05:55:47 PM
Geez. After all the accusation and suspicion, turns out to be true.

Chenier is gonna have a ball.


Also, what a dick that guy was. All pompous and what not. He was essentially the character Mendicant on the forums, too.

And look at all the stuff he effed up on Dwilight. I would venture that Aurvandil would not have been quite so powerful the past year without all his multi's. Strong, sure. But maybe not as crazy good as they were.

Really makes me mad.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lorgan on March 24, 2013, 05:59:13 PM
Tststststs
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on March 24, 2013, 06:09:07 PM
No, there were other character on other islands.

Yup, the Ohnarian defector to Coralynth, for one.  >:(
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on March 24, 2013, 06:19:39 PM
"Only a Dame or Knight of the realm who follows the path Chivalry as a Cavalier, are deemed legally eligible to be crowned as High Sovereign of Aurvandil. Anyone who assumes the Throne and Crown who does not follow the path of a Cavalier, is considered to have committed High Treason against the Kingdom and Commonwealth. "


They specify Cavalier twice in the law.  In the end, I don't think it will matter.  Others will run who aren't Cavaliers and our Judge is locked right now so no way to enforce it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 24, 2013, 06:39:09 PM
Wups. Sounds like a fun time to be in Aurvandil right now. Maybe you'll have a lot of class changes overnight. A sudden outbreak of cavalierly honor. :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on March 24, 2013, 07:03:02 PM
Almost everyone is out of the realm sacking Terran and can't change classes...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 24, 2013, 07:04:08 PM
Almost everyone is out of the realm sacking Terran and can't change classes...

Well the Chateau will be part of the realm pretty soon so you should be able to change again in a bit.

:P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 24, 2013, 07:10:55 PM
Quote
Well the Chateau will be part of the realm pretty soon so you should be able to change again in a bit.

Unlikely.

Also because I can't log in to Quintus due to a bug. :/
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 24, 2013, 08:06:00 PM
Unlikely.

Also because I can't log in to Quintus due to a bug. :/

Seriously?

That's weird.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 24, 2013, 08:54:43 PM
Well, so much for the "Mendicontinent"

Oh, and for ya'll who don't know, Chernier's getting a crown... :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 24, 2013, 09:02:05 PM
Well, so much for the "Mendicontinent"

Oh, and for ya'll who don't know, Chernier's getting a crown... :P

Maybe a crown of pig guts after we tar and feather him. :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 24, 2013, 09:17:30 PM
Maybe a crown of pig guts after we tar and feather him. :P

Of course you are welcome to come and try, but D'Hara plays a pretty fair defensive game and we actually let our allies (of which we have many) know whats up. We're like the neighborhood peewee of Dwilight.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Marlboro on March 24, 2013, 09:51:13 PM
Their wiki page has that listed right next to a requirement that the General be a Hero, so I think it may actually be a class requirement.

Is that an IR gray area? It makes plenty of sense ICly but let's say you're a cavalier, you get elected ruler, then you want to change classes for a while and you can't?

Well, some theocracies only let Priests be the Ruler so I don't see how that would be much different.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on March 24, 2013, 10:04:43 PM
. . . I quit playing for over a year because it was blatant that guy was cheating.

Guess I need to go see if I can recruit a few ex-players who also quit because of the cheating and get them back.

Regardless.  Most awesome.   Now to get back to ruling the South with my iron-clad fist.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 24, 2013, 10:16:34 PM
Seriously?

That's weird.

Yeah, something happened at the sunrise turn today. Everything was fine yesterday, today I get a big long ORM entity error. Did anything happen this morning?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 24, 2013, 10:38:41 PM
I didn't see anything. Maybe it's just the death throws of Terran?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on March 24, 2013, 10:41:30 PM
Yeah, something happened at the sunrise turn today. Everything was fine yesterday, today I get a big long ORM entity error. Did anything happen this morning?

I had problems logging into the server around the morning turn.    Timed out numerous times trying to log into the server as well and got a few log in errors.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on March 24, 2013, 11:16:40 PM
There was some kind of bug in the cleanup script this morning (runs 10AM server time). I haven't had chance to look more closely into it yet, but it looked like the kind of bug that would cause the errors you're seeing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on March 24, 2013, 11:41:07 PM
Geez. After all the accusation and suspicion, turns out to be true.

Chenier is gonna have a ball.


Also, what a dick that guy was. All pompous and what not. He was essentially the character Mendicant on the forums, too.

And look at all the stuff he effed up on Dwilight. I would venture that Aurvandil would not have been quite so powerful the past year without all his multi's. Strong, sure. But maybe not as crazy good as they were.

Really makes me mad.

I'm pretty pissed off with the game as a whole right now. A bunch of cheaters changed the continent permanently, and no amounts of political effort could stand in their way.

It was fishy as hell since the beginning, and now all of those people who didn't care about how suspicious their peers were, who preferred to look the other way as long as it payed off for them, now these people are set for quite a while. Aurvandil is now there to stay, probably, and these locks only come after they have succeeded in breaking all of their neighbors. The cheaters get locked, and all of the complacent and unscrupulous who helped them achieve their goals get to enjoy the spoils of the cheat.

I hate the Zuma, but a Zuma invasion of Aurvandil, to destroy or at least cripple the realm that gained supremacy through illegitimate means, would seem fair at this time. Cheating should never pay off for anyone. Looking the other way should never pay off for anyone.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on March 25, 2013, 12:02:22 AM
I'm pretty pissed off with the game as a whole right now. A bunch of cheaters changed the continent permanently, and no amounts of political effort could stand in their way.

It was fishy as hell since the beginning, and now all of those people who didn't care about how suspicious their peers were, who preferred to look the other way as long as it payed off for them, now these people are set for quite a while. Aurvandil is now there to stay, probably, and these locks only come after they have succeeded in breaking all of their neighbors. The cheaters get locked, and all of the complacent and unscrupulous who helped them achieve their goals get to enjoy the spoils of the cheat.

I hate the Zuma, but a Zuma invasion of Aurvandil, to destroy or at least cripple the realm that gained supremacy through illegitimate means, would seem fair at this time. Cheating should never pay off for anyone. Looking the other way should never pay off for anyone.

You're not the only way who feels that way.

Madina was destroyed by a bunch of Cheaters - I put years into building that Realm. 

We flagged Mendicant as a cheater almost immediately - but damned if we could "prove" it - but there are were just far too many things that were off or inconsistent with how every other Realm (even extremely good ones) behave and act.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Wolfsong on March 25, 2013, 12:05:01 AM
All I have to say about the matter is it's about damn time somebody finally nailed him for cheating - it was pretty blatant (but still circumstantial) if you played in Aurvandil, or around the realm in any close proximity.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 25, 2013, 12:17:08 AM
This whole cheating thing sucks. I had no idea and it sucks to support a realm that does it. I thought the matter had been settled a while ago and for it to come up now in the middle of an important war pisses me off even more. I am very annoyed that any Asylonian victory will be tarnished by the actions of Mendicants cheating.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 25, 2013, 12:24:48 AM
Meh, I see no difference between a realm being destroyed by cheaters and a realm being destroyed by some big gang bang alliance. One's legal and one's not, but they both result in the same thing. The injustice is integral to the battlemaster experience.

So, yeah, it's a shame that Madina got destroyed (not Terran that realm was boring), but, eh, the game was rigged from the beginning -- there's no way to win, after all.

I can relate to the guilty feeling of associating with and even aiding Mendicant. I gave him five hundred gold! This makes all of my treachery seem rather pointless.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on March 25, 2013, 12:32:41 AM
Meh, I see no difference between a realm being destroyed by cheaters and a realm being destroyed by some big gang bang alliance. One's legal and one's not, but they both result in the same thing. The injustice is integral to the battlemaster experience.

So, yeah, it's a shame that Madina got destroyed (not Terran that realm was boring), but, eh, the game was rigged from the beginning -- there's no way to win, after all.

I can relate to the guilty feeling of associating with and even aiding Mendicant. I gave him five hundred gold! This makes all of my treachery seem rather pointless.

Ah well.   We'll rebuild with a new Realm :)   Now that the Kirks are pretty much destroyed ;)

And ooo thats 500 well. . uh. . . disappeared?  Oh well!

I agree it's part of the game - we just do our best to remove it and keep playing.  I'm not a fan of the big gang-bang wars myself.  Given that Nighthelm was destroyed that way as well.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Marlboro on March 25, 2013, 12:36:01 AM
Chenier Rant

I have some pretty big issues with your guilt-by-association hypothesis, but on the whole that was much more restrained than I was expecting. Bravo.

My big question to everyone: How do we wanna RP this? Black Death? Wrath of the gods? Rampant scurvy?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 25, 2013, 12:42:03 AM
I have some pretty big issues with your guilt-by-association hypothesis, but on the whole that was much more restrained than I was expecting. Bravo.

My big question to everyone: How do we wanna RP this? Black Death? Wrath of the gods? Rampant scurvy?

How about Alison using cultists to poison them in preparation for a coup? Imagine! If the player and others involved were cool with that, otherwise i really like the plague idea. Might even give some people RP reason to leave Aurvandil.

And in response to the whole world ganging up on Aurvandil being cheating: False. Players from all over worked together over IG years to make that happen and it still did not go as hoped (logistics being what they are). I do believe it's time to let go of it all though, both IC and OOC.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Wolfsong on March 25, 2013, 12:42:40 AM
They were finally struck down (by accident, by disease?) by the gods for their flagrant disregard of them?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 25, 2013, 12:53:16 AM
I'm pretty pissed off with the game as a whole right now. A bunch of cheaters changed the continent permanently, and no amounts of political effort could stand in their way.

It was fishy as hell since the beginning, and now all of those people who didn't care about how suspicious their peers were, who preferred to look the other way as long as it payed off for them, now these people are set for quite a while. Aurvandil is now there to stay, probably, and these locks only come after they have succeeded in breaking all of their neighbors. The cheaters get locked, and all of the complacent and unscrupulous who helped them achieve their goals get to enjoy the spoils of the cheat.

I hate the Zuma, but a Zuma invasion of Aurvandil, to destroy or at least cripple the realm that gained supremacy through illegitimate means, would seem fair at this time. Cheating should never pay off for anyone. Looking the other way should never pay off for anyone.

It definitely isn't far to insult me and the rest of the realm for the actions of one of our players. Even if Mendicant hadn't multied we still wouldve had a much bigger army than the moot.

Oh and i think we are RPing it as disease IC.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 25, 2013, 01:06:14 AM
You are missing out on a chance to RP alien space clones!!!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on March 25, 2013, 01:16:15 AM
I said sorcerous mind control like we RPed Aquilegia
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 25, 2013, 01:42:08 AM
I've been saying Plague.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: ^ban^ on March 25, 2013, 01:47:27 AM
You are missing out on a chance to RP alien space clones!!!

That'll get Titans yelling at you about SMA violations :P

Personally, I'd go with the "shady group of underground assassins".
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Arundel on March 25, 2013, 02:11:51 AM
All I know is things will prove from here: if Allison takes the lead, then doubly so.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on March 25, 2013, 02:39:03 AM
An underground assassins guild from Terran deal a last blow against Aurvandil. Now to deal with Asylon...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on March 25, 2013, 02:52:30 AM
All I know is things will prove from here: if Allison takes the lead, then doubly so.

If you meant to write "improve" and Allison in same the sentence, then you haven't considered the implications of a declared heretic becoming head of state. Oh, the howling that will commence.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on March 25, 2013, 02:55:17 AM
If you meant to write "improve" and Allison in same the sentence, then you haven't considered the implications of a declared heretic becoming head of state. Oh, the howling that will commence.

The impotent howling!!!    Personally if elected I would set up a new realm in Terran lands then lead that realm myself.  I would be closer and then when the real fight started you would see how many friends I really do still have.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 25, 2013, 03:06:46 AM
To be honest dustole, I don't think there's an ice cube's chance in hell of Allison getting elected, but I do have to applaud you on how ballsy and well thought out allison is. Her actions made me realize a lot of things about how I play. Kudos to you man. I think just how many people hate or love allison is testament to this.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 25, 2013, 03:20:59 AM
That being said I have decided to run in the election... 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 25, 2013, 04:14:25 AM
The impotent howling!!!    Personally if elected I would set up a new realm in Terran lands then lead that realm myself.  I would be closer and then when the real fight started you would see how many friends I really do still have.

Unless you have a whole realm full of people to bring with you or else you want the realm to be you and Kas, I wouldn't suggest this.

Terran the realm was in bad shape but many of the nobles are salvageable. I've heard three separate plans for what to do with the land between the Chateau and Paisly and the big flaw in two of those three is that it assumes all of Terran's nobles are going to defect to D'Hara or something.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 25, 2013, 04:43:34 AM
Unless you have a whole realm full of people to bring with you or else you want the realm to be you and Kas, I wouldn't suggest this.

Terran the realm was in bad shape but many of the nobles are salvageable. I've heard three separate plans for what to do with the land between the Chateau and Paisly and the big flaw in two of those three is that it assumes all of Terran's nobles are going to defect to D'Hara or something.

Phantaria seceded; Chesney will shortly. The half dozen nobles remaining in Terran will probably join one of those two realms. Some of the regions may even follow after.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 25, 2013, 04:51:16 AM
Hmm, a realm destined to fight against huge gang bang alliances? Sounds fun, I'd join it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 26, 2013, 12:09:04 AM
Complex plans can at times appear irrational to those who have no clue of the design.  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 26, 2013, 12:11:43 AM
Irrational plans can sometimes appear merely complex to those who have no clue. ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 26, 2013, 12:23:12 AM
Wouldn't be the first time we were hung out to dry... :-[
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 26, 2013, 01:11:00 AM
So you were treated to the same thing that you claim every realm experiences, yet also claim that you deserve to be compensated because of it... ???

Compensated, because they were tricked.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 26, 2013, 01:40:33 AM
Im about to compensate them with my sword... 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 26, 2013, 02:23:01 AM
Is there going to be any more Maroccidenian warfare? Aurvandil has already reached peace with both Barca and D'Hara, and Terran is imploding/capitulating. Phantaria is at peace with Asylon. D'Hara is still neutral with Asylon. Who is left to fight down there?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on March 26, 2013, 02:29:07 AM
The Marrocidens probably need some time to recuperate. Meanwhile, the north is brewing! Asylon vs western SA realms go!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 26, 2013, 02:37:26 AM
The Marrocidens probably need some time to recuperate. Meanwhile, the north is brewing! Asylon vs western SA realms go!

so a roflstomp gang bang? Sounds cool
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 26, 2013, 02:38:39 AM
Hey, they volunteered. You can't blame us for giving them what they asked for.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 26, 2013, 02:40:48 AM
Astrum couldnt fight its way out of a paperbag... and even if it could it'd still need half of Dwilight to hold its hand on the way out 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 26, 2013, 03:06:24 AM
Good thing Asylon isn't stronger than a paper bag, then. :D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 26, 2013, 03:34:04 AM
Asylon currently has more nobles than Astrum, so unless Astrum has a bunch of allies to bail them out I think that they are screwed.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lefanis on March 26, 2013, 03:52:28 AM
...unless Astrum has a bunch of allies to bail them out I think that they are screwed.

Lol wut  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 26, 2013, 04:12:11 AM
Good thing Asylon isn't stronger than a paper bag, then. :D

We are recycled organic hemp paper though...  :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on March 26, 2013, 05:04:20 AM
Asylon can surely call on its Falkirk and Aurvandil allies against Astrum and its own allies and federates: Corsanctum, Iashalur, Morek, and FR.

Waaaaaar!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on March 26, 2013, 07:04:53 AM
Yes, I'm sure Falkirk is totally in condition to go wage a war halfway across the continent.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on March 26, 2013, 04:56:18 PM
Quote
And now the same has happened to the walls of the Terran Capital,

The Chateau's walls were not totally destroyed. Down to level 3 and then Quintus talked his way out of further destruction. Might've been earlier but he was wounded.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 26, 2013, 06:19:25 PM
Yup.   And my Realm was fully annihilated and destroyed by Mendicant and his posse, its name tarnished, the whole nine yards.   

You know what I'm going to do?  Crush Aurvandil - and to do that, I need to get back to playing.

you can try, but Aurvandil will not let you remake madina in any form while it still has troops to fight with.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 26, 2013, 06:27:38 PM
you can try, but Aurvandil will not let you remake madina in any form while it still has troops to fight with.
Because he really thought you guys would totally be like, "You want to destroy my realm to remake Madina? Sounds good we will get rid of all of our troops so you can do that." Btw, Madina would be started in Madina, and Aurvandil doing a terrible job defending it does not suggest they will survive much longer.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 26, 2013, 07:02:48 PM
Because he really thought you guys would totally be like, "You want to destroy my realm to remake Madina? Sounds good we will get rid of all of our troops so you can do that." Btw, Madina would be started in Madina, and Aurvandil doing a terrible job defending it does not suggest they will survive much longer.

Well if you're done being a condescending ass, My point was really to say that no affair we have would be more important than keeping Madina from being refounded. Even if falkirk falls we will just retake the city.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on March 26, 2013, 07:18:49 PM
Well if you're done being a condescending ass, My point was really to say that no affair we have would be more important than keeping Madina from being refounded. Even if falkirk falls we will just retake the city.

Oh don't worry.   I think new Capital of any such realm will be firmly founded in Candiels.  I was Duke there once, I think I'd like to be Duke there again. ^.^

Don't disappointed me, the south would be awfully boring if you guys just rolled over and died.   I'd like to stretch it out for another year or so, keeps the battles and wars interesting.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 27, 2013, 01:54:47 AM
Its annoying because of how contrived it all was. You think you are involved in an actual strategy game and making interesting choices and then find out that all of it is a sham. I feel like Terran should get back what it lost, I feel that Barca should get back what they lost. If they lost if fair and square I wouldn't have an issue, I have no problem fighting between realms but when I find out that this war is and was a complete sham it makes me a bit annoyed that we also were used in a weird way. I don't want to win because of cheating. I am fairly pure about taking my hits and would like to see victories because of actual strategy and skill and not just because someone gamed the system.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 27, 2013, 07:15:29 AM
Update:

Hireshmont has decided to go out with a bang.

All Vandals shall be tortured.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 27, 2013, 11:34:07 PM
Tell me, would Allison have left the church if she had nowhere to run to?
She probably would have been kicked out. The writing was already on the wall. Too many people were too unhappy with her. She had been permanently denied any form of control or authority in the religion. For Allison, that's as good as kicking her out.

Quote
And whatever the answer, many people have put great efforts to keeping SA in the same direction, and many have commented that it may not otherwise be so united.
I maintain that these people, all relative newcomers to SA, have no idea what they're talking about.

Quote
Morek's impact on Dwilight is rather minimal. They could have more impact, but they chose not to. Same with Astrum.
I'm sorry, but this just proves that you have no idea what's going on in the world outside D'Hara.

Quote
What did Astrum or Morek do since Aurvandil was founded?
Destroyed ThulsomaAveroth. Destroyed Caerwyn. Founded Iashalur. Founded Swordfell. Killed Summerdale.

So, yeah, pretty much nothing.

Quote
To say that it had a "big" effect is an understatement. Mendicant single-handedly caused the most changes on Dwilight by himself, with the help of whoever didn't mind playing in a realm with a lot of fishy behavior.
There's no denying that Aurvandil had a huge effect on the island. I don't deny it. I just dispute how much different the island would be without the multi-accounting. Would the moot still be around? Sure. Madina? Maybe.

Quote
Why not just go raze the damn thing to the ground, lest we leave Dwi as a testament of how much one can pull off by cheating if he wants to.
Not gonna happen, no matter how much you scream and yell that it should. Treat it like any other bug, and play through it.


Edit: Wups, meant Averoth, not Thulsoma...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 27, 2013, 11:44:41 PM
Without Mendicant and his wars, Rynn would not have become Prime Minister when he did, or reigned for as long as he has. Think on how much influence that alone has had. kthxbai.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 28, 2013, 12:01:29 AM
Without Mendicant and his wars, Rynn would not have become Prime Minister when he did, or reigned for as long as he has. Think on how much influence that alone has had. kthxbai.

Or how about all the alliances between 'Moot realm and SA realms? Almost all of those came AFTER the war with Aurvandil started. Actually, Terran had just finished FIGHTING an SA Theocracy when the war between Barca and Aurvandil broke out.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 28, 2013, 12:50:09 AM
ummm excuse me but Astrum exists to get its ass kicked by Asylon.  8)  8)  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on March 28, 2013, 01:32:42 AM
So if you don't care... why are you here? You're just making yourself sound like more and more of an idiot. If you're weighing in simply to disagree or have your own super-edgy-totally-original opinion, you probably need something more exciting in life.

Have you seen the RCs in Aurvandil? They're incredible.
How condescending. I'm crushed. I'm abject, desolate, undone. I'm going to quit BM forever and cry. Your words, so powerful in their utmost perfection and wisdom, have shattered my feeble image of the world and proven to me my own ignorance. Oh the shame...


So, You're just posting to insult people now and make yourself sound idiotic? That's cool. No he's posting because that's what people do on a game forum... discuss the game.

Let me also say that in no way shape or form am I saying the players or characters of Aurvandil are victims here. The only thing we have lost is the founder of our realm.

Chenier, about what you said about glorifying the cheater: We aren't glorifying The man who plays Mendicant, we are glorifying the character who created our realm, and is now indisposed. It is RP, SMA rp at that, and in no way a reflection of the PLAYERS views of the other PLAYER.


Edit: agree with Anaris. Let's stop discussing anything about the OOC cheating in this thread or I am locking it and you guys can squabble somewhere else.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: BarticaBoat on March 28, 2013, 01:38:39 AM

So, You're just posting to insult people now and make yourself sound idiotic? That's cool. No he's posting because that's what people do on a game forum... discuss the game.

If he says "I've already stated my case on this issue, your attacks don't reveal any flaws in my reasoning nor bring up anything I might have overlooked, so I will simply refer you to my previous post." and  "I did not benefit or lose from this ordeal, nor am I particularly concerned. I am discussing this on a whim, if you must know. " then why is he discussing it? If Kwanstein wants to be condescending and arrogant instead of defending his points or shrugging and letting the frustrated be frustrated, why am I going to give him anything less than beautifully snarky remarks?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 28, 2013, 01:47:27 AM
Surprise for you, maybe, 'cause they all happened before Aurvandil seceded.
Aurvandil was most definitely in existence when Astrum was fighting against Averoth and Caerwyn. Candiels seceded two weeks after Caerwyn declared war. Rowan Geronus died two days after Caerwyn declared war, and my character Brance was elected ruler. Averoth died two months later, and Caerwyn three months after that. I distinctly remember Aurvandil's secession.

Quote
D'Hara funded realms with tens of thousands of gold in the past, and the results never were all that spectacular.
And yet you tried to blame the SA theocracies for the failure of the war against Aurvandil because we didn't give Terran tens of thousands of gold, even though you admit that the results of such an endeavor were never good.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 28, 2013, 02:15:34 AM
If he says "I've already stated my case on this issue, your attacks don't reveal any flaws in my reasoning nor bring up anything I might have overlooked, so I will simply refer you to my previous post." and  "I did not benefit or lose from this ordeal, nor am I particularly concerned. I am discussing this on a whim, if you must know. " then why is he discussing it? If Kwanstein wants to be condescending and arrogant instead of defending his points or shrugging and letting the frustrated be frustrated, why am I going to give him anything less than beautifully snarky remarks?

First you thought that I was being angry, now you think that I am being condescending and arrogant. The truth is that I am none of those things. You should not read so far into my words; they are meant to be taken plainly, not as projections of my emotions. As for referring Chenier and that other fellow to a prior post, that was done because the prior post was sufficient enough to answer everything that they brought up and I didn't feel like retyping it differently. It was meant to save time, basically. None may accuse me of wasting time.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 28, 2013, 04:38:16 AM
Chenier goes and plays on another world... I could only dream... :'(
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 28, 2013, 04:43:56 AM
We should exile the two of you, together, to the Colonies. You two can have a cage match, with only one coming out alive.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on March 28, 2013, 05:06:37 AM
We should exile the two of you, together, to the Colonies. You two can have a cage match, with only one coming out alive.

Two men enter, one man leaves...     been too long since I watched Mad Max!!!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 28, 2013, 05:13:05 AM
Two men enter, one man leaves...     been too long since I watched Mad Max!!!

Yes. Please. Please.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 28, 2013, 06:52:19 AM
Haha!

And now Hireshmont has been arrested by Aurvandil.

This is going to get fun.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Arundel on March 28, 2013, 07:08:25 AM
Who's gonna pick up all those counties that Terran left behind? Be cool if Asylon walked in and took a thing or two.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on March 28, 2013, 07:42:01 AM
Believe it or not, the vast majority of their wealth is in gold...

Interesting. So the new ruler of Aurvandil won't benefit from Mendicant's gold after all. Well not 100%.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 28, 2013, 09:45:26 AM
So the Mistight peasants defect to the Zuma... does this mean I have to declare war on the Zuma to get it back?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 28, 2013, 11:59:12 AM
Who's gonna pick up all those counties that Terran left behind? Be cool if Asylon walked in and took a thing or two.

Maybe, or it will whip up the Anti-Asylon sentiments again and make people start threatning us for beeing too, um, i dont remember the word.... Imperialistic? expansive? something negative that makes them want to declare war on us to prevent us from expanding further.

So the Mistight peasants defect to the Zuma... does this mean I have to declare war on the Zuma to get it back?

Nah, you can negotiate with Haktoo to get it back.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 28, 2013, 12:58:21 PM
Maybe, or it will whip up the Anti-Asylon sentiments again and make people start threatning us for beeing too, um, i dont remember the word.... Imperialistic? expansive? something negative that makes them want to declare war on us to prevent us from expanding further.

Mmmm... I'm pretty sure it was supporting Aurvandil, bro.  lol
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 28, 2013, 01:43:03 PM
Mmmm... I'm pretty sure it was supporting Aurvandil, bro.  lol

haha, nah, we was getting thoose messages waaaay before we allied with Aurvandil. But they did come again after we allied them. So maybe you're partial right ;).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 28, 2013, 05:32:49 PM
So have the Zuma attacked Chesney yet? I thought that Kas convinced them to do that awhile ago. But no mention of it on the forums, I am dissapoint.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 28, 2013, 10:04:09 PM
So have the Zuma attacked Chesney yet? I thought that Kas convinced them to do that awhile ago. But no mention of it on the forums, I am dissapoint.

Well, Haktoo just gave me permission to DoW on the Zuma to retake Mistight... so she doesn't seem to angry... I hope..
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on March 28, 2013, 10:17:01 PM
Well, Haktoo just gave me permission to DoW on the Zuma to retake Mistight... so she doesn't seem to angry... I hope..

Did she add "Go ahead, make my day"?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 28, 2013, 10:54:49 PM
Mmmm... I'm pretty sure it was supporting Aurvandil, bro.  lol

Naw, the Moot and the northern theocracies attitude had kind of pushed us closer to Auravndiil and the Zuma. Which has worked out excellently in this war. Oh sweet isolation breeds innovation...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 29, 2013, 01:48:02 AM
Naw, the Moot and the northern theocracies attitude had kind of pushed us closer to Auravndiil and the Zuma. Which has worked out excellently in this war. Oh sweet isolation breeds innovation...
Its worked out excellently in this war? Asylon has done next to nothing. You lured Terran's army away, but even if they did defend, they would have been defeated easily anyways.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 29, 2013, 04:49:49 AM
Its worked out excellently in this war? Asylon has done next to nothing. You lured Terran's army away, but even if they did defend, they would have been defeated easily anyways.

Oh Penchant ye have little patience...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 29, 2013, 05:28:43 AM
Oh Penchant ye have little patience...
Aurvandil is going to abandon you because they are busy with stopping Madina from being set up and I don't really see the Zuma caring about you so there seems to be nothing for me to wait to learn of that would make me think Asylon has done something that could be said to have worked out excellently for them already. As to hoping something will work out well, you can't really say that is it has worked out well just because you expect/hope it will, as it has no guarantee to actually happen.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 29, 2013, 06:44:34 AM
Aurvandil is going to abandon you because they are busy with stopping Madina from being set up and I don't really see the Zuma caring about you so there seems to be nothing for me to wait to learn of that would make me think Asylon has done something that could be said to have worked out excellently for them already. As to hoping something will work out well, you can't really say that is it has worked out well just because you expect/hope it will, as it has no guarantee to actually happen.

Yeah... Dude...  :o
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 29, 2013, 07:06:08 PM
MUAHAHA!

Hireshmont escaped from Aurvandil's dungeons torture-free.

Now give Hireshmont more prisoners to torture! Quickly now, before he gets protested out of office!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on March 29, 2013, 07:40:39 PM
This is the decent into madness you've been looking for for a while now, no? lol
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 29, 2013, 07:57:24 PM
This is the decent into madness you've been looking for for a while now, no? lol

Madness? No.

Hireshmont's actions are very calculated.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 29, 2013, 07:58:15 PM
Madness? No.

Hireshmont's actions are very calculated.
Calculated to lose all power and become an outcast? (Well for the 'moot anyways, Hireshemont is doing pretty decent for SA.)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 29, 2013, 08:01:02 PM
Madness? No.

Hireshmont's actions are very calculated.

 ::) thats what I said...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on March 29, 2013, 08:11:48 PM
Calculated to lose all power and become an outcast? (Well for the 'moot anyways, Hireshemont is doing pretty decent for SA.)

Calculated to tie up some loose ends.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: mikm on March 30, 2013, 11:00:07 AM
Asylon keeps geting new nobles, even with the server issues. The thocracies will colaps simply because of lack of nobles if this keeps up.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on March 30, 2013, 06:21:50 PM
Well its a good beginning for Asylon but it won't last long.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: sharkattack on March 30, 2013, 06:41:12 PM
Is it just me or does character "Allison" is running out of options?
Quote
Allison Kabrinski has changed the allegiance of Tovabur to the duchy of Fissoa, a part of the realm of Grand Duchy of Fissoa
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Astinus on March 30, 2013, 06:53:38 PM
not at all, she's playing a really interesting storyline right now.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on March 30, 2013, 08:17:06 PM
She's flailing for some way to escape the hole she dug.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on March 30, 2013, 09:34:47 PM
Asylon keeps geting new nobles, even with the server issues. The thocracies will colaps simply because of lack of nobles if this keeps up.

They are not interesting enough to attract people. If they are not interesting, they should die. It is as simple as that. This game is called 'battlemaster' after all. When one stops fighting that is when one dies.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on March 30, 2013, 11:14:32 PM
Gustav should bring some interest to the area...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 31, 2013, 07:20:17 PM
Well its a good beginning for Asylon but it won't last long.

I am still waiting for the large Astrum army to come and crush our unorganized "army"... But since Terran is about to be no more, will Astrum withdraw their declaration of war before they beat us bloody?


And Perth,

Since Asylon are getting more and more new Knights, I might need to promote some Knights to Lords, but I dont have land... You had land you wanted us to take, right? ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on March 31, 2013, 09:20:45 PM
Mendicant again, or did one of yours decide to follow his example? After all, he seems to be recreating some of his accounts in Aurvandil.


I too find it odd, that during a time when most Realms are suffering low activity due to the DNS issue a Realm would be getting "lots" of new knights.

Just saying, it seems a bit weird.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on March 31, 2013, 09:30:59 PM
Mendicant again, or did one of yours decide to follow his example? After all, he seems to be recreating some of his accounts in Aurvandil.


Well, I would hate it if it was someone that started to cheat in Asylon.

I too find it odd, that during a time when most Realms are suffering low activity due to the DNS issue a Realm would be getting "lots" of new knights.

Just saying, it seems a bit weird.

Hmm, maybe, or maybe some of us have been talking with our irl friends about this awesome game we are playing and its getting really exciting since we are in a war and some other stuff going on, so maybe that sparked some interest?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on March 31, 2013, 09:48:34 PM
Asylon is really active when it comes to public dialogue and RP. In a lot of other realms the action is mostly, sometimes even entirely, confined to the upper echelons, hidden from the lower strata -- the noobs. For this reason newer players are probably more likely engaged and retained in Asylon.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on March 31, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
My sister plays in Asylon. Not saying who, but she invited some people recently.

Plus a few I know came from other servers. We are an underdog realm fighting against 4 attackers. People like those odds, victory will be so much sweeter and shattering to the defeated.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on March 31, 2013, 10:30:48 PM
And Perth,

Since Asylon are getting more and more new Knights, I might need to promote some Knights to Lords, but I dont have land... You had land you wanted us to take, right? ;)

Hmmm... no, I don't think so. Unless you mean Astrum?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: D'Espana on April 01, 2013, 12:54:54 AM
Had ya'll been D'Haran newcommers, that would have been the case. Rynn, Ghaundan and Ismail are all on the national welcoming comittee  ;D

Damn right. But, I do have something to say now. Something related to how, even being Holy Week in my country and thus being in holiday (spare time FTW), I haven't felt like answering letters the latter days.

If I go back to my first arrival in this game, which happened pretty much by hazard, I found it slightly exciting, though I was dissapointed by the turn system (why do I have only so many hours to use? That's silly! - those were my thoughts ;D)

Still, I read the manual, the RP guide and nearly everything the wiki had to say about the game. Then I thought: heck, this thing has potential. Let's stick to it.

Some months later, I won my first region (yay, Port Nebel!) and started getting involved a little bit more with the politics and all that. That's when I said: dude, this game's awesome!

But do you know why did I say that? Not for politicking, not for the region and definitely not for what was happening. It was all about the atmosphere. After playing so many directly competitive games, BM was refreshing as hell, and above all: I thought it had an extremely healthy environment, where everyone was kind and everything went fluent, no grudges between players and all kept within IC.

Errrr... no. Now I'm close to the 2 years mark, and even though I still consider myself a sort of newcomer, since there are people who have been here for ages, my opinion of the atmosphere has changed quite a bit. And it all started by OOC bitching and, especially, my first visits to the forum. Hell, no. That was not healthy anymore. Some of it had indeed quite harsh words between PLAYERS, and resentments hold for literally RL years.

Has anyone considered that the loss of players may be simply because of a "professionalization" of the game and the change in atmosphere? Those two things tend to scare casual players as myself, and were I not as involved as I already am in some stuff I would possibly say: that's it, here it ends.

Anyway, I don't even know why I have written this here. Perhaps because I don't know where else write it, perhaps only with the vain hope that people may start being nice to other people again so the overall feeling is improved a bit and IC becomes important one more time. Apologies for the long post.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Meneldur on April 01, 2013, 01:24:30 AM
Damn right. But, I do have something to say now. Something related to how, even being Holy Week in my country and thus being in holiday (spare time FTW), I haven't felt like answering letters the latter days.

If I go back to my first arrival in this game, which happened pretty much by hazard, I found it slightly exciting, though I was dissapointed by the turn system (why do I have only so many hours to use? That's silly! - those were my thoughts ;D)

Still, I read the manual, the RP guide and nearly everything the wiki had to say about the game. Then I thought: heck, this thing has potential. Let's stick to it.

Some months later, I won my first region (yay, Port Nebel!) and started getting involved a little bit more with the politics and all that. That's when I said: dude, this game's awesome!

But do you know why did I say that? Not for politicking, not for the region and definitely not for what was happening. It was all about the atmosphere. After playing so many directly competitive games, BM was refreshing as hell, and above all: I thought it had an extremely healthy environment, where everyone was kind and everything went fluent, no grudges between players and all kept within IC.

Errrr... no. Now I'm close to the 2 years mark, and even though I still consider myself a sort of newcomer, since there are people who have been here for ages, my opinion of the atmosphere has changed quite a bit. And it all started by OOC bitching and, especially, my first visits to the forum. Hell, no. That was not healthy anymore. Some of it had indeed quite harsh words between PLAYERS, and resentments hold for literally RL years.

Has anyone considered that the loss of players may be simply because of a "professionalization" of the game and the change in atmosphere? Those two things tend to scare casual players as myself, and were I not as involved as I already am in some stuff I would possibly say: that's it, here it ends.

Anyway, I don't even know why I have written this here. Perhaps because I don't know where else write it, perhaps only with the vain hope that people may start being nice to other people again so the overall feeling is improved a bit and IC becomes important one more time. Apologies for the long post.

I'll second this; the Dwilight forum in particular is very bad for this sort of thing. There appears to be some genuine OOC resentments between certain players of opposing realms that regularly manifests itself on these forums and it really makes the whole game, both IC and OOC, less fun to play in. Logging onto the forums only to see the conflict you were enjoying IC turning into a massive OOC flame-war is not very nice, and were I a new player I would certainly have been discouraged by it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 01, 2013, 03:39:39 AM
Can someone make an official "Mendicant/Aurvandil Flame" thread so I can eavesdrop on whats going on with the wars across the pond and not sift through this?

I'd say go to the Cases thread that is up, but it's horribly placed for a vitriol thread.

What are the Terran babies planning to do? How does Asylon fare? Does anyone care about Barca?

Asylon is doing very well and actually I wish I could say more but I want it to be a surprise... 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on April 01, 2013, 04:18:07 AM
What are the Terran babies planning to do? How does Asylon fare? Does anyone care about Barca?

Asylon's winning. Look at the world news feed and see for yourselves; they recently defeated 50% of the nobles in Astrum army.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on April 01, 2013, 04:31:14 AM
Asylon's winning. Look at the world news feed and see for yourselves; they recently defeated 50% of the nobles in Astrum army.
Yeah...no 50% of the nobles of Astrum army was not defeated. They may have won the recent battles but Astrum obviously has much a much larger army. Are they perhaps not the most organized, maybe, but they have a bigger army then whats been shown.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on April 01, 2013, 04:43:00 AM
Yeah...no 50% of the nobles of Astrum army was not defeated. They may have won the recent battles but Astrum obviously has much a much larger army. Are they perhaps not the most organized, maybe, but they have a bigger army then whats been shown.

But how much of their army is active, is the question.

Look at it this way.

Astrum has thirty nobles, of which I'm guessing that only two thirds of which are warriors (the rest being courtiers, diplomats, priests, that sort). So twenty warriors. Statistics indicate that only thirty percent of this game's players log in every day, so that is seventy percent of the Astrum army which is only sporadically active. That means that the Astrum army has less than ten players who log in every day to follow orders, and five of them were recently defeated.

That is how I do my math.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 01, 2013, 04:56:54 AM
Meh, you're probably not too far off the mark.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 01, 2013, 05:33:10 AM
Yeah...no 50% of the nobles of Astrum army was not defeated. They may have won the recent battles but Astrum obviously has much a much larger army. Are they perhaps not the most organized, maybe, but they have a bigger army then whats been shown.

Umm, Astrum has a large militia force. They do not have a large active army. This has always been the case. Astrum is a realm of gold collectors, they are fat and bored, complacent. Asylon is a realm of hungry sleek killing machines surrounded by hostile enemies, hated by all. We are the panther in the jungle. Astrum is a chubby little sow in its pen. Astrums allies are very far away and Asylon does not fear a living soul. We are ready to take on the entire world!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: BarticaBoat on April 01, 2013, 06:00:23 AM
Umm, Astrum has a large militia force. They do not have a large active army. This has always been the case. Astrum is a realm of gold collectors, they are fat and bored, complacent. Asylon is a realm of hungry sleek killing machines surrounded by hostile enemies, hated by all. We are the panther in the jungle. Astrum is a chubby little sow in its pen. Astrums allies are very far away and Asylon does not fear a living soul. We are ready to take on the entire world!
You forget the original bloodlusting barbarians on dwilight, the Toren, still live in Astrumese lands  ;)
Karibash will have a hell of a time when he meets you. Please don't try to duel him  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on April 01, 2013, 06:29:54 AM
Please keep all Mendicant cheating references to the new thread:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4085.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4085.0.html)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on April 01, 2013, 08:15:02 AM
Heh. It seems Astrum is becoming a bit more interesting these days though it doesn't seem like it is enough to make me unpause ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Kwanstein on April 01, 2013, 06:54:37 PM
Does Astrum not care that it's lands are being looted?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 01, 2013, 07:45:29 PM
No, why would we? They're just dumb peasants.

Or maybe, just maybe, it takes some time for the army to get home, refit, and get back. Dunnbrook to Eidulb and back isn't exactly a short trip.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 01, 2013, 08:12:48 PM
The army of Astrum is scattered from Shuberstone to Walefishire. We have been smashing piecemeal habberdash of nobles that rest inbetween those regions. We are not cocky but confidence is high that we will do the impossible over the next few weeks. By the time Astrum arrives we will have refitted repaired and returned with a larger army that will be like rolling thunder on the plains and shake the very foundations of western Dwilight... Hooowarghhh
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on April 01, 2013, 08:29:44 PM
The army of Astrum is scattered from Shuberstone to Walefishire. We have been smashing piecemeal habberdash of nobles that rest inbetween those regions. We are not cocky but confidence is high that we will do the impossible over the next few weeks. By the time Astrum arrives we will have refitted repaired and returned with a larger army that will be like rolling thunder on the plains and shake the very foundations of western Dwilight... Hooowarghhh

Keep at it Glau. Show Astrum the might of Asylon. You should destroy everything between Eidulb and Itau ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on April 01, 2013, 08:35:06 PM
Create that Asylonian confederacy you always dreamed of!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 01, 2013, 10:07:12 PM
What we will do once Astrum is tamed is take the lands and form a handful of new kingdoms from Kosht to and Itau and beyond and then they can fight it out in glorious battle and build their own histories. We have no desire to rule a vast empire. When we are done I hope that Asylon will return to a bickering backwater with tales to tell. What we are going to do is shatter the powers of the west and be the black horse riding on lightning across the sky , like an act of nature one that forever will be like a legendary flood in the minds of all and then recede like waves on that shore and watch what worlds are built in our wake... Hooowarghhh
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 01, 2013, 10:11:06 PM
This war is a godsend for Astrum. I hope it wakes people up. Too bad you guys couldn't wait another couple months. I was seriously considering abandoning the realm, and moving somewhere else. But now I have to stick around long enough to crush you. :)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 01, 2013, 10:14:15 PM
No rest for the wicked... 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on April 01, 2013, 10:15:37 PM
This war is a godsend for Astrum. I hope it wakes people up. Too bad you guys couldn't wait another couple months. I was seriously considering abandoning the realm, and moving somewhere else. But now I have to stick around long enough to crush you. :)

Happy to oblige! =D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 01, 2013, 10:51:21 PM
I tried to get some peole interested in getting a war going in Astrum, but it's so slow in there... like the proverbial molasses in January.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 02, 2013, 02:40:28 AM
You need to get Morek involved too.

In other news: I just realized Terran lost regions. I totally thought that no regions had been lost in the secessions. Woops!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 02, 2013, 02:44:04 AM
You need to get Morek involved too.

In other news: I just realized Terran lost regions. I totally thought that no regions had been lost in the secessions. Woops!

What do you mean? You didn't think duchies seceding took the whole duchy with them?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 02, 2013, 02:44:41 AM
Ummm, Morek did arrive and they ran away when they saw the Zuma. Silly Morek...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 02, 2013, 02:48:28 AM
What do you mean? You didn't think duchies seceding took the whole duchy with them?

No I mean all the rogue regions.

I didn't realize anything went rogue.

Or that Saffalore was captured.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 02, 2013, 02:51:30 AM
No I mean all the rogue regions.

I didn't realize anything went rogue.

Or that Saffalore was captured.

Oh, yeah.

Asylon's looting hit Phantaria hard. The place is starving out.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 02, 2013, 02:52:14 AM
Oh, yeah.

Asylon's looting hit Phantaria hard. The place is starving out.

Serves you damn rebels right.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 02, 2013, 02:52:44 AM
Oh, yeah.

Asylon's looting hit Phantaria hard. The place is starving out.

But, you know... the end of Terran will be the end of Triunism.

You could convert to Astroism and move north! :)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 02, 2013, 02:55:24 AM
Any Truinists who wish to see their faith thrive should come to Asylon. We are the keepers of faiths and all are welcome.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 02, 2013, 07:08:50 AM
But, you know... the end of Terran will be the end of Triunism.

You could convert to Astroism and move north! :)

Not necessarily. We've got a temple in Shokalom and Shoka, for sure. And Kale is still Triunist after all these years.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 02, 2013, 07:27:29 AM
Not necessarily. We've got a temple in Shokalom and Shoka, for sure. And Kale is still Triunist after all these years.

Bah.

Just convert all ready. It's way more fun. You know I'm telling the truth.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 02, 2013, 07:35:56 AM
Bah.

Just convert all ready. It's way more fun. You know I'm telling the truth.

Maybe.

But the Astroist membership card also comes with a big ole' target on your back.


Bloodmoon Cult is another option, on the other hand....



Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 02, 2013, 07:37:34 AM
Maybe.

But the Astroist membership card also comes with a big ole' target on your back.


Bloodmoon Cult is another option, on the other hand....

Kale is no Cultist and you know it: that would be some serious shark-jumping there.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 02, 2013, 02:28:56 PM
Oh yeah because Truinism and Astroism are so close.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 02, 2013, 02:33:21 PM
Triunism... three bloodstars... that's closer. Closer than three gods and a psychedelic fruit.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 02, 2013, 02:54:40 PM
Foreign religion or local...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 02, 2013, 03:28:52 PM
Everything is local to SA.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 02, 2013, 03:58:10 PM
Oh yeah because Truinism and Astroism are so close.

Triunism acknowledges Astroism as a variant man. They're very, very close.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 02, 2013, 04:39:40 PM
Well so does CoB... Considering we acknowledge the Bloodstars as having influence in the fruit. The stars influence man and nature. Bloodmoon being one discovered thing that is directly influenced by changes in the star phases.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on April 02, 2013, 04:42:52 PM
Well so does CoB... Considering we acknowledge the Bloodstars as having influence in the fruit. The stars influence man and nature. Bloodmoon being one discovered thing that is directly influenced by changes in the star phases.

Indeed. The CoB cultists should convert to SA, just like the Triunists should convert to SA.  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 02, 2013, 04:45:46 PM
Well we believe that anyone can become a prophet and that to achieve proper commune with the myriad of gods you must eat the fruit. If the prophet was to acknowledge the fruits powers hmmmm maybe you could convert to the true faith of COB  ;D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on April 02, 2013, 08:56:16 PM
I'm glad Asylon so stalwartly resists the spread of SA into all corners. It's a breath of fresh air.

The Marrocidens seems like the perfect place for some Astroistic spinoff-religion to pop up, much like Catharism or Bogilism, considering all the convergent influence of SA, Triunism, and VE.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 02, 2013, 09:09:45 PM
I'm glad Asylon so stalwartly resists the spread of SA into all corners. It's a breath of fresh air.

The Marrocidens seems like the perfect place for some Astroistic spinoff-religion to pop up, much like Catharism or Bogilism, considering all the convergent influence of SA, Triunism, and VE.

I think that is Allison's objective.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 02, 2013, 09:59:33 PM
We dont resist SA ,we resist Astrums influence and the government style of theocracy, we still have SA temples in Asylon, we welcome priests. We are not anti-SA. We are against Astrums reach in our region and we desire to be the power of the messociddens. We actually want us and the Farronites to be that power but they keep hanging out with those Moot losers instead of stepping up and casting off the shackles, fight for freedom of their realm to do what it wishes and have the Moot realms come to us as the new order in the west lands. No longer will we bow to outside influence, no longer will we fear what Astrum wants or who they desire to take our lands. We will decide our own future from now on without the Moot or Astrum to cow us and shale our chain... Freedom for the Messocidens! Since Caerwyn, since Kabrinskia,we have been under the boot. No more!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Phellan on April 02, 2013, 10:19:47 PM
We dont resist SA ,we resist Astrums influence and the government style of theocracy, we still have SA temples in Asylon, we welcome priests. We are not anti-SA. We are against Astrums reach in our region and we desire to be the power of the messociddens. We actually want us and the Farronites to be that power but they keep hanging out with those Moot losers instead of stepping up and casting off the shackles, fight for freedom of their realm to do what it wishes and have the Moot realms come to us as the new order in the west lands. No longer will we bow to outside influence, no longer will we fear what Astrum wants or who they desire to take our lands. We will decide our own future from now on without the Moot or Astrum to cow us and shale our chain... Freedom for the Messocidens! Since Caerwyn, since Kabrinskia,we have been under the boot. No more!

You had me till you bad mouthed Caerwyn.

Go get 'em Astrum!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 02, 2013, 10:40:30 PM
Caerwyn played its cards wrong when they isolated us and went all anti-SA on us. If they had of maintained good relations we would have marched with them. Around Asylon is the graveyard of nations who underestimated the kingdom of the Bear, the Raven and the Fox.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 03, 2013, 02:48:30 AM
Nice to see that your hallucinations are still going strong. I think I might come to miss them if you started acting rational. :D
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on April 03, 2013, 04:08:41 AM
Nice to see that your hallucinations are still going strong. I think I might come to miss them if you started acting rational. :D

I just thought you were tom because of the battlemaster logo.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Zakilevo on April 03, 2013, 04:09:57 AM
I just thought you were tom because of the battlemaster logo.

Same here :o
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 03, 2013, 04:28:08 AM
Nice to see that your hallucinations are still going strong. I think I might come to miss them if you started acting rational. :D

This is a roleplaying game, if I wanted rational I'd play chess by myself in an enclosed box at the bottom of the ocean in the belly of a whale...  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 03, 2013, 04:35:51 AM
The fact that you're roleplaying doesn't mean that the character you are playing can't be rational, and make decisions/plans based on what's really happening in-game. If you try to keep your motivations more in line with what's really going on in-game, you may find yourself less frustrated (and less pissed off) by the actions of your fellow players. I'm sure everyone would appreciate that.

That doesn't mean you can't have fun. But maybe you can throw us off track, and maybe trip us all up every now and then, by doing/saying something that is understandable?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 03, 2013, 05:06:55 AM
The fact that you're roleplaying doesn't mean that the character you are playing can't be rational, and make decisions/plans based on what's really happening in-game. If you try to keep your motivations more in line with what's really going on in-game, you may find yourself less frustrated (and less pissed off) by the actions of your fellow players. I'm sure everyone would appreciate that.

That doesn't mean you can't have fun. But maybe you can throw us off track, and maybe trip us all up every now and then, by doing/saying something that is understandable?

I do that at work all day.  ;D

Regarding the plans and decisions based on whats happening ingame. My decisions and the decisions of my realm are whats happening in game. That is why we act like we do or did.  My motivations are are exactly what is in line with what is happening ingame because my character and realm survive where others flounder, cannot draw players, nor cooperate long term. Perhaps if my actions are not understandable it is those who do not understand that should try to understand. In a strategy game, for people to understand what you are doing would allow them to predict your actions, if someone cannot predict your actions they cannot beat you, if they cannot beat you they will have to adapt or be destroyed. If you can make your actions clear to those who follow you but befuddle those who oppose you, it doesn't matter that they cannot understand for they are the enemy.  8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 03, 2013, 05:07:50 AM
I just thought you were tom because of the battlemaster logo.

Ditto. Indirik's been throwin me off all day.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on April 03, 2013, 05:12:25 AM
Ditto. Indirik's been throwin me off all day.
He is an admin now for the forums, so it comes with title/job.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Norrel on April 03, 2013, 06:32:36 AM
I do that at work all day.  ;D

Regarding the plans and decisions based on whats happening ingame. My decisions and the decisions of my realm are whats happening in game. That is why we act like we do or did.  My motivations are are exactly what is in line with what is happening ingame because my character and realm survive where others flounder, cannot draw players, nor cooperate long term. Perhaps if my actions are not understandable it is those who do not understand that should try to understand. In a strategy game, for people to understand what you are doing would allow them to predict your actions, if someone cannot predict your actions they cannot beat you, if they cannot beat you they will have to adapt or be destroyed. If you can make your actions clear to those who follow you but befuddle those who oppose you, it doesn't matter that they cannot understand for they are the enemy.  8)

Doesn't explaining this sort of negate anything you might be gaining from it?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 03, 2013, 07:44:35 AM
I'm glad Asylon so stalwartly resists the spread of SA into all corners. It's a breath of fresh air.

The Marrocidens seems like the perfect place for some Astroistic spinoff-religion to pop up, much like Catharism or Bogilism, considering all the convergent influence of SA, Triunism, and VE.

That would be fun. We need a good, dynamic religion in that part of the continent.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on April 03, 2013, 07:46:56 AM
That would be fun. We need a good, dynamic religion in that part of the continent.
Or you know...Orthodox Astroism (I am kinda neutral to it myself).
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 03, 2013, 08:25:53 AM
Or you know...Orthodox Astroism (I am kinda neutral to it myself).

If it wasn't Allison, and if it wasn't the sole thing Astroism is willing to crusade/get angry about, and therefore had any chance of success, then yeah I'de be open to it.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 03, 2013, 01:11:03 PM
Allison shut down OA.

Not that joining it would have done you any good. It was just a shell anyway.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 03, 2013, 01:59:26 PM
Allison shut down OA.

Not that joining it would have done you any good. It was just a shell anyway.

Shuts down realms and religions often enough...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 03, 2013, 02:02:00 PM
Well, she didn't have much choice about it. She tried to use it as a bargaining chip to buy her way back into SA, but it didn't work.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 03, 2013, 02:02:20 PM
Doesn't explaining this sort of negate anything you might be gaining from it?

No, it doesn't matter. 
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 03, 2013, 02:06:25 PM
He's the master of the unpredictable.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 03, 2013, 02:59:33 PM
He's the master of the unpredictable.

I mastered it ... Oh wait a minute no I didnt! ... Or maybe I did? 8)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 03, 2013, 08:20:41 PM
If it wasn't Allison, and if it wasn't the sole thing Astroism is willing to crusade/get angry about, and therefore had any chance of success, then yeah I'de be open to it.

Bro.

Join SA, and then start some kind of pseudo-syncretic semi-Triunist faction within SA. It isn't hard and probably wouldn't get that bad of a reaction if you brought enough converts with you.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 03, 2013, 08:37:16 PM
Yeah call it Orthodox Astroism...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 03, 2013, 08:54:05 PM
Yeah... because that's exactly what OA was about.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 03, 2013, 09:57:11 PM
Yeah... because that's exactly what OA was about.

Lol wasnt about anything at all  :'(
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Indirik on April 03, 2013, 10:01:57 PM
Yes, it was about something. That something just had nothing to do with creating a real religion.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 03, 2013, 10:48:49 PM
Bro.

Join SA, and then start some kind of pseudo-syncretic semi-Triunist faction within SA. It isn't hard and probably wouldn't get that bad of a reaction if you brought enough converts with you.

Now that has the gears turning... hm...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 03, 2013, 11:00:09 PM
Yes, it was about something. That something just had nothing to do with creating a real religion.

Oh SA you secretive cabal you, I just want to pinch your chubby bloodstar cheeks.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 03, 2013, 11:01:16 PM
Meanwhile, Phantaria is slowly wasting away due to severe starvation.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on April 03, 2013, 11:38:28 PM
Meanwhile, Phantaria is slowly wasting away due to severe starvation.
You deserve to starve. No effort to get food means you deserve starvation. I still don't understand why you don't ask your federation partners for food, or at least tell them you are having troubles and ask if they know where you can get some.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 04, 2013, 12:24:53 AM
Typical Terran fashion not communicating between allies...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 04, 2013, 01:41:47 AM
Typical Terran fashion not communicating between allies...

Sad but true.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 04, 2013, 02:55:39 AM
You deserve to starve. No effort to get food means you deserve starvation. I still don't understand why you don't ask your federation partners for food, or at least tell them you are having troubles and ask if they know where you can get some.

1. I didn't say we didn't, I was more just reporting for new's sake.

2. Phantaria doesn't have any federated allies.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on April 04, 2013, 04:09:45 AM
1. I didn't say we didn't, I was more just reporting for new's sake.

2. Phantaria doesn't have any federated allies.
2. You never asked your federated allies when you were Terran either. Plus, its not like we instantly hate you because left so since you are practically still a part of the moot. (Not officially but still in guild, still liked, etc.)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 04, 2013, 04:15:30 AM
2. You never asked your federated allies when you were Terran either. Plus, its not like we instantly hate you because left so since you are practically still a part of the moot. (Not officially but still in guild, still liked, etc.)

We we were fine on food as Terran. The reason Phantaria is starving is because of the raiding/looting done by Asylon right before the secession coupled with some moral penalties from the whole new realm process.

But, I know, you're right we need to ask around more. :)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on April 04, 2013, 05:06:35 AM
2. You never asked your federated allies when you were Terran either. Plus, its not like we instantly hate you because left so since you are practically still a part of the moot. (Not officially but still in guild, still liked, etc.)

No, D'Hara gave Terran at least 1000 bushels...right before the Great Drought hit. That's part of why D'Hara lost half its regions--we helped Terran survive.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 04, 2013, 08:02:14 AM
No, D'Hara gave Terran at least 1000 bushels...right before the Great Drought hit. That's part of why D'Hara lost half its regions--we helped Terran survive.

That's one of the few times we've ever needed imports to get through.

And kinda a long time ago. We've been food-sufficient for a long time.

In other news: Hireshmont is ruler again.

I'm giving it a 95% chance that Aurvandil rejects the most recent surrender offer. But if they DON'T reject it... well I almost hope they do. Because it'd be awfully humiliating to swallow the terms Terran is offering.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: sharkattack on April 04, 2013, 09:28:32 AM
Vellos i think you should prepare yourself. We will see  ::) . I hope Allomere accepts the offer so we can focus on other "potential" military campaigns.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 04, 2013, 03:01:43 PM
Vellosis the whole reason your republic has been laid to ashes... Good luck with that one.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 04, 2013, 04:06:24 PM
Vellos i think you should prepare yourself. We will see  ::) . I hope Allomere accepts the offer so we can focus on other "potential" military campaigns.

Heh, not much to prepare. We'll starve in about 2 or 3 days.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: sharkattack on April 04, 2013, 05:32:30 PM
I am talking about the other thing.  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: vonGenf on April 04, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
I am talking about the other thing.  ::)

Well, you're not supposed to talk about the other thing on the forum, are you? :o
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Tandaros on April 04, 2013, 06:35:37 PM
Well, you're not supposed to talk about the other thing on the forum, are you? :o

Forum meta-gaming is so cool tho, takes away the need for roleplaying!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 04, 2013, 07:03:52 PM
Peace with Asylon - check!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 04, 2013, 08:02:23 PM
Peace with Asylon - check!

We're sorry bro  :'(
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on April 05, 2013, 12:53:17 AM
We we were fine on food as Terran. The reason Phantaria is starving is because of the raiding/looting done by Asylon right before the secession coupled with some moral penalties from the whole new realm process.


Sorry bout that, but thats how Asylon wages war. We come, we pillage, we retreat back into our backwater realm that is no threat to anybody.

And on another note, I remember selling food to the previous Duke of Shokalom several times, I keep forgeting his name... When I was trying to befriend him and improve Asylon-Terran(well, Phantaria-Duchy relations really). Point beeing: Phantaria starved before we did our raid there, so we only take partial blame, well, most of the blame.

Peace with Asylon - check!

Yeah, going to upset a few of my nobles, but hey, we left the conflict a long time ago when we started to march north instead.

Now the excitment of watching how Astrum will act begins =D

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Scarlett on April 05, 2013, 12:55:42 AM
Quote
Phantaria starved before we did our raid there,

A lot of Terran starved because there was a month or so when nobody could be arsed to sell their food. The food was there. It just wasn't moving.

Terran, 'the realm where nothing is ever anybody's fault, except Erasmus'
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 05, 2013, 01:03:47 AM
A lot of Terran starved because there was a month or so when nobody could be arsed to sell their food. The food was there. It just wasn't moving.

Terran, 'the realm where nothing is ever anybody's fault, except Erasmus'

We got things moving eventually. We did everything eventually.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 05, 2013, 01:49:07 AM
Sorry bout that, but thats how Asylon wages war. We come, we pillage, we retreat back into our backwater realm that is no threat to anybody.

And on another note, I remember selling food to the previous Duke of Shokalom several times, I keep forgeting his name... When I was trying to befriend him and improve Asylon-Terran(well, Phantaria-Duchy relations really). Point beeing: Phantaria starved before we did our raid there, so we only take partial blame, well, most of the blame.

Yeah, going to upset a few of my nobles, but hey, we left the conflict a long time ago when we started to march north instead.

Now the excitment of watching how Astrum will act begins =D

No hard feelings. You all were quite effective at it.

And Labell Enstance was the former (and only) Duke before Kale. He used to have some fancy glowing position in SA. He was a bro.


Terran, 'the realm where nothing is ever anybody's fault, except Erasmus'

Lol. Hey, it was a realm of politicians, wuddya expect?  ;D

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 05, 2013, 02:04:19 AM
Vellosis the whole reason your republic has been laid to ashes... Good luck with that one.

Not much left to lose, either way.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 05, 2013, 06:47:48 AM
Not much left to lose, either way.

I will make a fancy title and go into exile.

Boo-ya.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Feylonis on April 05, 2013, 08:23:44 AM
FR accepts all refugees! It's the place to be right now, what with the return of Allison Kabrinski and her cabal to the Golden Farrow.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 05, 2013, 12:54:25 PM
I will make a fancy title and go into exile.

Boo-ya.

Roam the lands, like Stanislav Chénier, King and Justiciar of Minas Ithil?

I'm trying to find people to interact with, but even the big cities are empty. :(
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 05, 2013, 01:32:43 PM
Roam the lands, like Stanislav Chénier, King and Justiciar of Minas Ithil?

Rally up a posse.

Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 05, 2013, 08:22:32 PM
Roam the lands, like Stanislav Chénier, King and Justiciar of Minas Ithil?

I'm trying to find people to interact with, but even the big cities are empty. :(

My plan exactly.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 12, 2013, 02:52:43 PM
Love how Aurvandil was all like "we like small independant players, and Falkirk's totally independant", and now they are going to war with D'Hara and Fissoa because of Falkirk and are allying with the most imperialistic realm of all, not to mention the new top realm: Luria Nova.

As for those saying Aurvandil is crippled... the stats page show no significant change as far as characters and active characters go. Military strength waned, sure, but they had waned to even lower levels in January, and are already bouncing back up. So nope. Still there, still strong, still taking advantage of their illegitimate might to continue pressing on the neighboring realms they used their illegitimate might to cripple in the first place. Only difference is that they are siding with more unscrupulous people now.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on April 12, 2013, 03:16:49 PM
Still there, still strong, still taking advantage of their illegitimate might to continue pressing on the neighboring realms they used their illegitimate might to cripple in the first place. Only difference is that they are siding with more unscrupulous people now.

You wanna maybe reconsider calling a realm with three devs in prominent positions "more unscrupulous" than a realm built on the back of a multicheater?

Or are you actually accusing us of abusing our devly powers? 'Cause if so, I think that would probably fall under §2.3 of the Social Contract.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: DamnTaffer on April 12, 2013, 03:20:45 PM
You wanna maybe reconsider calling a realm with three devs in prominent positions "more unscrupulous" than a realm built on the back of a multicheater?

Or are you actually accusing us of abusing our devly powers? 'Cause if so, I think that would probably fall under §2.3 of the Social Contract.

He is accusing Aurvandil of abuse again, not Luria. Oh no wait, reread that, he is accusing both. Bravo.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Velax on April 12, 2013, 03:31:19 PM
You wanna maybe reconsider calling a realm with three devs in prominent positions "more unscrupulous" than a realm built on the back of a multicheater?

Or are you actually accusing us of abusing our devly powers? 'Cause if so, I think that would probably fall under §2.3 of the Social Contract.

I believe Chenier was saying Lurian nobles are more unscrupulous than those Aurvandil was allied with before.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on April 12, 2013, 03:32:26 PM
I believe Chenier was saying Lurian nobles are more unscrupulous than those Aurvandil was allied with before.

Given that his statement about the Lurias was immediately following a statement about the gains Aurvandil got from cheating, I don't think mine is an unreasonable interpretation.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: egamma on April 12, 2013, 03:53:35 PM
Love how Aurvandil was all like "we like small independant players, and Falkirk's totally independant", and now they are going to war with D'Hara and Fissoa because of Falkirk and are allying with the most imperialistic realm of all, not to mention the new top realm: Luria Nova.

As for those saying Aurvandil is crippled... the stats page show no significant change as far as characters and active characters go. Military strength waned, sure, but they had waned to even lower levels in January, and are already bouncing back up. So nope. Still there, still strong, still taking advantage of their illegitimate might to continue pressing on the neighboring realms they used their illegitimate might to cripple in the first place. Only difference is that they are siding with more unscrupulous people now.

The subject of both those paragraphs is Aurvandil, not Luria Nova. First paragraph states that Aurvandil has allied with Luria Nova and Falkirk. The second paragraph states that Aurvandil is still strong, and has yet another one of Chenier's rants about Aurvandil as a realm not getting punished for the actions of the multi.

Luria Nova is not accused of anything other than being the "new top realm". I don't see how that is a social contract violation.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Solari on April 12, 2013, 03:54:24 PM
I believe Chenier was saying Lurian nobles are more unscrupulous than those Aurvandil was allied with before.

Historically, it is very difficult to tell whether Chénier is speaking about things as he perceives them to be IC, or OOC. Especially when it comes to the Lurian bogeyman. We could go back to bitching about the subject of this thread, though!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Anaris on April 12, 2013, 03:55:08 PM
The subject of both those paragraphs is Aurvandil, not Luria Nova. First paragraph states that Aurvandil has allied with Luria Nova and Falkirk. The second paragraph states that Aurvandil is still strong, and has yet another one of Chenier's rants about Aurvandil as a realm not getting punished for the actions of the multi.

Luria Nova is not accused of anything other than being the "new top realm". I don't see how that is a social contract violation.

Only difference is that they are siding with more unscrupulous people now.

They, Aurvandil, are siding with more unscrupulous people, Luria Nova.

I really, honestly can't see how that sentence could mean anything else.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: sharkattack on April 12, 2013, 04:01:01 PM
Aurvandil + Luria Nova vs CE + Tara. Who would win?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on April 12, 2013, 04:01:56 PM
Aurvandil + Luria Nova vs CE - Tara. Who would win?

The Zuma... or D'hara, on because of military might the other on diplomatic wordsmithing.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Vellos on April 12, 2013, 09:37:28 PM
So, Maroccidenian war.

Real quiet right now in Terran.

We're gonna try to TO Saffalore. Wish us luck.

Also: Aurvandil still hasn't responded to our surrender. We sit in awkward anxiousness.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on April 12, 2013, 11:13:25 PM
So, Maroccidenian war.


Asylon is refitting and preparing to head north to protect its border once again. Maybe this time we wont retreat when winter turn to spring, letting our enemies crush us beenth their heels as we get stuck in the mud from the insta-melting snow.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on April 13, 2013, 12:01:30 AM
Well the war is going to start backup it seems. Aurvandil demanded we give Saffalore back Odona after the lord defected and that we give back the regions on Madina Isle. The short version of Rynn's letter was !@#$ no/!@#$ you. Also, I find it incredibly hard to claim D'hara's current diplomacy being successful through its wordsmithing, as it seems much more like its successful simply through Rynn's personal relationships with others and less so of D'hara as a whole.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on April 13, 2013, 12:16:55 AM
Well the war is going to start backup it seems. Aurvandil demanded we give Saffalore back Odona after the lord defected and that we give back the regions on Madina Isle. The short version of Rynn's letter was !@#$ no/!@#$ you. Also, I find it incredibly hard to claim D'hara's current diplomacy being successful through its wordsmithing, as it seems much more like its successful simply through Rynn's personal relationships with others and less so of D'hara as a whole.

Well, Rynn is the only D'haran I (well, my char) really have had any contact with, and he is a pretty good wordsmith ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Perth on April 13, 2013, 08:36:20 AM
Well the war is going to start backup it seems. Aurvandil demanded we give Saffalore back Odona after the lord defected and that we give back the regions on Madina Isle. The short version of Rynn's letter was !@#$ no/!@#$ you. Also, I find it incredibly hard to claim D'hara's current diplomacy being successful through its wordsmithing, as it seems much more like its successful simply through Rynn's personal relationships with others and less so of D'hara as a whole.

Oh... NOOOWW D'Hara wants to fight Aurvandil. *facepalm*
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: sharkattack on April 13, 2013, 09:30:52 AM
I think we might see Paisly get steamrolled again  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Stabbity on April 13, 2013, 10:09:02 AM
Oh... NOOOWW D'Hara wants to fight Aurvandil. *facepalm*

Ikr?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 13, 2013, 01:56:22 PM
Oh... NOOOWW D'Hara wants to fight Aurvandil. *facepalm*

We were fighting Falkirk so that, you know, Fissoa and Luria Nova may join in against Aurvandil too?

And we were fighting Aurvandil until our whole realm fell apart and we needed some time to get back on our feet...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on April 13, 2013, 03:17:13 PM
Status of D'Hara:

Laughing @ Alice
I know that feel, bro (told you so) @Fissoa
Where's your messiah now?! @ Aurvandil
sup guys, what'll you guys be up to in the next few months Wanna send your armies to come visit (defend) D'Hara? @ Farronite Republic, Corsanctum, Astrum, Swordfell, and Morek
thx 4 the sweet new coat n spear, Grimdawg! @ Asylon
wat r u doin?! @ Saffalore and Terran
umm, who are ya'll again? @ Phantaria & Niesalur

Oh, also Machiavel left VE for SA. have fun with that.

Did I leave anyone out?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: dustole on April 13, 2013, 07:05:03 PM
Love how Aurvandil was all like "we like small independant players, and Falkirk's totally independant", and now they are going to war with D'Hara and Fissoa because of Falkirk and are allying with the most imperialistic realm of all, not to mention the new top realm: Luria Nova.

As for those saying Aurvandil is crippled... the stats page show no significant change as far as characters and active characters go. Military strength waned, sure, but they had waned to even lower levels in January, and are already bouncing back up. So nope. Still there, still strong, still taking advantage of their illegitimate might to continue pressing on the neighboring realms they used their illegitimate might to cripple in the first place. Only difference is that they are siding with more unscrupulous people now.

A 33% drop in military strength is no laughing matter.  Considering that more than a few of the characters that were locked and later auto paused automatically dropped their units as militia when they did that.   Also, those accounts that were locked haven't been deleted yet so they won't show up on the Aurvandil stats.  From first glance it looks like they have about 4 fairly new accounts in Aurvandil and not all of the nobles have that followed Allison have made their exodus.  Also, it may take some time for all the extra gold that was funneled into the realm to run out. 
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 13, 2013, 08:34:33 PM
A 33% drop in military strength is no laughing matter.  Considering that more than a few of the characters that were locked and later auto paused automatically dropped their units as militia when they did that.   Also, those accounts that were locked haven't been deleted yet so they won't show up on the Aurvandil stats.  From first glance it looks like they have about 4 fairly new accounts in Aurvandil and not all of the nobles have that followed Allison have made their exodus.  Also, it may take some time for all the extra gold that was funneled into the realm to run out.

How many capital sacks will they get to do before this happens, I wonder?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Penchant on April 13, 2013, 09:14:29 PM
How many capital sacks will they get to do before this happens, I wonder?
Actually none, as most of the gold is gone since it was mostly gold and not bonds during autopause, I believe. Its cheaper to maintain an army than it is to recruit an army.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 13, 2013, 10:38:22 PM
Actually none, as most of the gold is gone since it was mostly gold and not bonds during autopause, I believe. Its cheaper to maintain an army than it is to recruit an army.

They army that they already have and which is cheaper to maintain is quite enough...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on April 14, 2013, 10:51:35 PM
They army that they already have and which is cheaper to maintain is quite enough...

You're right Chenier, we are coming for you. All our units and armies have been renamed to the boogeymen and we are gonna getcha. 2000 infantry will all be hiding under your bed :P
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 14, 2013, 11:15:50 PM
You're right Chenier, we are coming for you. All our units and armies have been renamed to the boogeymen and we are gonna getcha. 2000 infantry will all be hiding under your bed :P

Your own ruler said he was coming to invade us...
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on April 15, 2013, 12:20:06 AM
Your own ruler said he was coming to invade us...

We just want to scare you :P Really, you're pretty selfish thinking you would be our first target. SMH
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 15, 2013, 01:27:40 AM
We just want to scare you :P Really, you're pretty selfish thinking you would be our first target. SMH

We ALWAYS think we are EVERYONE's first targets.

Eesh, you clearly don't know a thing about your neighbors.  ::)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Bjarnson on April 15, 2013, 02:03:55 AM
We ALWAYS think we are EVERYONE's first targets.


Could have sworn that someone from Asylon would have said that... lets get paranoid togheter? ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 15, 2013, 02:24:05 AM
Could have sworn that someone from Asylon would have said that... lets get paranoid togheter? ;)

Asylon is OUR first target. ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Daimall on April 15, 2013, 03:34:13 AM
We ALWAYS think we are EVERYONE's first targets.

Wait... Niselur's first target is D'hara?!? I know our deposed King went there, but do we really need his corpse or something to ensure Leopold's rule?
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Chenier on April 15, 2013, 12:19:00 PM
Wait... Niselur's first target is D'hara?!? I know our deposed King went there, but do we really need his corpse or something to ensure Leopold's rule?

Most probably, yes.  ;)
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Arrakis on April 15, 2013, 02:50:54 PM
Yay, I love it when the shadows of the past arrive for vengeance. Fun times!
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: JeVondair on April 17, 2013, 03:31:36 PM
So is it about time to close this part of Dwili history? I mean, I don't see any more offensive heading towards Aurvandil any time soon. I'm actually surprised the new Prince_Regent hasn't gone about signing cease-fires and peace treaties yet.
Title: Re: The Marrocidenian war
Post by: Lanyon on April 17, 2013, 03:41:25 PM
I agree. This war is over. I'm going to lock the thread and I'll open it up again if any new developments happen.