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BattleMaster => Helpline => Topic started by: NoblesseChevaleresque on October 25, 2012, 05:01:22 PM
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Are regional protests over wars meant to be so absolutely devastating?
Nearly all of Aurvandil has gone from core control, to province or occupied from a single morning turn change where the regions protest the state of war, these being wars declared on Aurvandil making it farcical for it to be so damaging in protests. Within a few days at this rate nearly every region in Aurvandil will revolt just from war protests. We literally cannot restore control over all of our lands if we wanted to before they start to revolt at the rate things are going. The deck is already hideously stacked in the favour of our enemies due to how obscenely powerful sea travel is, now it seems our entire realm will revolt before we can fight a battle as a result of yet more coding.
If things aren't changed, Aurvandil may as well give up now since our realm will revolt before our enemies even arrive.
Just to show you the scale of things:
Regional Events in Candiels (10 hours, 37 minutes ago)
message to everyone in Candiels
The locals are protesting against the rule of Aurvandil.
Duchy Report for Candiels (10 hours, 37 minutes ago)
message to the duke and nobles of Candiels
Agl
The local population strongly objects to the war on Astrum.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Corsanctum.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Morek Empire.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Libero Empire.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Iashalur.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Kabrinskia.
Protests against the realm and civil unrest are causing serious trouble. The peasants are seriously questioning our rule. On the plus side, it improved their morale to express themselves.
Candiels
The local population strongly objects to the war on Astrum.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Corsanctum.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Morek Empire.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Libero Empire.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Iashalur.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Kabrinskia.
Protests against the realm and civil unrest are causing serious trouble. The peasants are seriously questioning our rule. On the plus side, it improved their morale to express themselves.
Tubrel
Protests against the realm and civil unrest are causing serious trouble. The peasants are seriously questioning our rule. On the plus side, it improved their morale to express themselves. 6 gold are reported missing from tax collector offices after the unrest.
Duchy Report for Marquessate Of Evanburg (10 hours, 40 minutes ago)
message to the duke and nobles of Marquessate Of Evanburg
Celtiberia
The local population strongly objects to the war on Astrum.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Corsanctum.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Morek Empire.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Libero Empire.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Iashalur.
Evanburg
The local population strongly objects to the war on Astrum.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Corsanctum.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Morek Empire.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Libero Empire.
The local population strongly objects to the war on Iashalur.
Gallaecia
The local population strongly objects to the war on Iashalur.
Protests against the realm and civil unrest are causing serious trouble. The peasants are seriously questioning our rule. On the plus side, it improved their morale to express themselves.
Kydonia
Protests against the realm and civil unrest are causing serious trouble. The peasants are seriously questioning our rule. On the plus side, it improved their morale to express themselves.
Lusitania
The local population strongly objects to the war on Morek Empire.
Duchy Report for Margraviate Of Tower Fatmilak (10 hours, 41 minutes ago)
message to the duke and nobles of Margraviate Of Tower Fatmilak
Tower Fatmilak
The local population strongly objects to the war on Iashalur.
Protests against the realm and civil unrest are causing serious trouble. The peasants are seriously questioning our rule. On the plus side, it improved their morale to express themselves. 6 gold are reported missing from tax collector offices after the unrest.
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Diplomats can help you. Your people are afraid, they need some good old propaganda.
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Diplomats can help you. Your people are afraid, they need some good old propaganda.
Well, unless they can bring an entire realm back from the brink of revolt and offset the daily massive drop in control, morale and loyalty, I don't seen how a few diplomats will be able to do anything against the war protest coding.
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Well, unless they can bring an entire realm back from the brink of revolt and offset the daily massive drop in control, morale and loyalty, I don't seen how a few diplomats will be able to do anything against the war protest coding.
Diplomacy has consequences.
Good diplomats can fix regions. Priests can fix regions. Courtiers can fix regions. Thing is, they can't lead soldiers very well.
Also, good diplomats prevent wars from starting in the first place.
I know that, from my perspective, one of the intended reasons I wanted so many realms, even distant ones, to declare war on Aurvandil was to generate protests in Aurvandil. I didn't know they'd be so large so quickly... but this is a pretty well known feature of the game. If the whole continent declares war on you and marches armies at you, the game will try and get you to surrender.
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Good diplomats can fix regions. Priests can fix regions. Courtiers can fix regions. Thing is, they can't lead soldiers very well.
Actually, courtiers are better at fixing regions. Diplomats are better at making regions not need fixing in the first place.
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Diplomacy has consequences.
Good diplomats can fix regions. Priests can fix regions. Courtiers can fix regions. Thing is, they can't lead soldiers very well.
Also, good diplomats prevent wars from starting in the first place.
I know that, from my perspective, one of the intended reasons I wanted so many realms, even distant ones, to declare war on Aurvandil was to generate protests in Aurvandil. I didn't know they'd be so large so quickly... but this is a pretty well known feature of the game. If the whole continent declares war on you and marches armies at you, the game will try and get you to surrender.
Within a single day, the entirety of Aurvandil has suffered massive internal collapse on every front, we literally cannot do anything on a large enough scale to offset the damage in time. The coding has pretty much made it impossible for Aurvandil to actually fight a war, and over protests for wars declared on us, which is absolutely ridiculous.
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If those protests indeed cumulate, that'd be a little extreme. However, this is probably coinciding with the secession of paisly which isn't that healthy for your regions either.
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If those protests indeed cumulate, that'd be a little extreme. However, this is probably coinciding with the secession of paisly which isn't that healthy for your regions either.
Yep, secession causes chaos.
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If those protests indeed cumulate, that'd be a little extreme. However, this is probably coinciding with the secession of paisly which isn't that healthy for your regions either.
It isn't.
We've observed the effect war protests have had on our regions in the past from our wars with the 'Moot, which was devastating to our northern regions, now it's simply spread across the realm.
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It isn't.
We've observed the effect war protests have had on our regions in the past from our wars with the 'Moot, which was devastating to our northern regions, now it's simply spread across the realm.
Then you should have known that this would happen, and prepared for it by using diplomats to make all your regions hate SA.
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Then you should have known that this would happen, and prepared for it by using diplomats to make all your regions hate SA.
Well, I expected to suffer, but not to suffer entire collapse on every level.
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Well, I expected to suffer, but not to suffer entire collapse on every level.
As Lorgan says, part of that is because of the effects of the secession compounding it.
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As Lorgan says, part of that is because of the effects of the secession compounding it.
It still remains that you can basically rogue an entire realm just through declaring war on them.
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It still remains that you can basically rogue an entire realm just through declaring war on them.
Not usually.
I think that in this case, the problem is threefold:
1) Your regions were very fond of the SA realms.
2) All the realms declared war on you together.
3) The secession.
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Not usually.
I think that in this case, the problem is threefold:
1) Your regions were very fond of the SA realms.
2) All the realms declared war on you together.
3) The secession.
Well, our regions were not "fond" of S.A. they were if anything room temperature, they had no reason to be fond of S.A.
And your second point merely compounds mine that if you mass declare at one time, you can take down a realm just through using war protest coding.
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Well, our regions were not "fond" of S.A. they were if anything room temperature, they had no reason to be fond of S.A.
And your second point merely compounds mine that if you mass declare at one time, you can take down a realm just through using war protest coding.
I'm not speaking to whether the current circumstance is fair, but the above isn't strictly true. This is a question the devs should be able to answer, though: just how fond of SA and the astrocracies your peasantry was. You really shouldn't ignore diplomat actions in any pursuit of total war, though.
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Well, our regions were not "fond" of S.A. they were if anything room temperature, they had no reason to be fond of S.A.
Hm. You're sure that they hadn't had some diplomat down there softening things up? Because those "strongly object" messages should only happen when a region is highly sympathetic/loyal to the realm in question. Like,
And your second point merely compounds mine that if you mass declare at one time, you can take down a realm just through using war protest coding.
No, it means that you can't just have 1 realm declare war on 1 other realm; you need a large coalition before it even becomes a worry.
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Hm. You're sure that they hadn't had some diplomat down there softening things up? Because those "strongly object" messages should only happen when a region is highly sympathetic/loyal to the realm in question. Like,
No, it means that you can't just have 1 realm declare war on 1 other realm; you need a large coalition before it even becomes a worry.
Why would our regions have high sympathy and loyalty to Sanguis Astroism, who are thousands of in game miles away from Aurvandil and have had no interaction with us?
And yes, that is my point, when you get a large coalition you find yourself with the power to immediately win by collapsing your opponent internally just by declaring war, which largely make Sanguis Astroism all the more untouchable.
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The war aspect of war has been removed from the game with this coding. A realm can lose a war simply by its enemies exploiting game coding. Similarly how Thulsoma survived for a long time using gold exploits, though not to this extent. Aurvandil's regions have no love for S.A and to be fair, peasants wouldn't complain en masse about a war.
To give an example, in the Hundred Years War there were some towns and villages in England that had no idea the country had been at war with the French for a century. This is ridiculous stacked against Aurvandil at a rather convenient time seeing as the northern SA realms have been gunning for our downfall for quite a long time now..
This has made victory impossible for Aurvandil on a coding level which defeats the purpose of Aurvandil even trying in this war.
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Aie....
OK, I've taken a look at the current state of Aurvandil's regions, and it looks like there's another bug at work here, which is what has caused many of the regions to be unnaturally loyal to realms they've never met.
I'm not sure exactly what the resolution should be here, but this is definitely causing the massive effects you're seeing. Normally the protests would be dramatically less widespread, and less severe where they do occur.
I will bring this up with the devs.
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Well, actually, SA priests have been preaching down their repeatedly, so they probably WOULD have met said realms. <.<
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Well, actually, SA priests have been preaching down their repeatedly, so they probably WOULD have met said realms. <.<
It's not like Allison was down there for ages with her 90%+ oratory skill and a genetic predisposition to trolling.
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Priests alone couldn't make a whole realm's regions revolt with the little work they did, perhaps to some effect, but to make majority of a realm's regions revolt just due to a declaration of war. I hope this is fixed with due haste
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Well, our regions were not "fond" of S.A. they were if anything room temperature, they had no reason to be fond of S.A.
Do you have numbers from the game to back that up? There are many ways through which your people can get sympathy to even very distant realms. Unless you had diplomats checking those values in your realm, I don't see how you can claim that wasn't the case.
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I have a very strong suspicion that Aurvandil runs very high tax rates. I suggest you drop the all to 8%--this will make your peasants a lot happier.
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Eww. 8%..
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Eww. 8%..
It's almost as bad as the 98%, but at least it's better than the 99%.
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Aie....
OK, I've taken a look at the current state of Aurvandil's regions, and it looks like there's another bug at work here, which is what has caused many of the regions to be unnaturally loyal to realms they've never met.
I'm not sure exactly what the resolution should be here, but this is definitely causing the massive effects you're seeing. Normally the protests would be dramatically less widespread, and less severe where they do occur.
I will bring this up with the devs.
Hey, I've seen this everywhere. Regions that are worshipful of Falkirk but never interacted with their nobles, for example... I've often seen cases of regions loving realms that they have had no reason to like, and not only on Dwilight.
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Hey, I've seen this everywhere. Regions that are worshipful of Falkirk but never interacted with their nobles, for example... I've often seen cases of regions loving realms that they have had no reason to like, and not only on Dwilight.
Very weird... maybe the entire game is suffering from something...
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Very weird... maybe the entire game is suffering from something...
There's nothing new here.
Many enweilian regions loved Sint... These two were never on good terms, there were never Sintian priests or diplomats in Enweil, and the only time their troops came was to fight and loot.
Such things are everywhere.
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Kind of to be expected when you get the majority of a continent to declare war on you. Make peace?
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This seems a bit extreme, and somewhat counterproductive to the "We want more war in BM" attitude. I would think having a half dozen realms declare war on you is enough punishment for an ignorance of or failure of diplomacy without your regions rebelling from under you.
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There has always been a certain amount of the effect that is causing this problem. To the extent that it is nonsensical, we have tried to tweak it to be less so. It will be going through further changes in the near to medium term, and hopefully continue to get less silly.
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Well Aurvandil has suffered hideously this turn.
Candiels, which was at core control and 80% loyalty, has tried to revolt against and invoked a massacred, which is so ridiculous it's almost unbelievable. All of our regions are trying to revolt and some already have.
This war protest coding has completely removed any point in Aurvandil trying to fight now, and even if the coding is scaled back, the damage has been done. We can't repair the damage.
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In the next few turns all regions will revolt ....
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In the next few turns all regions will revolt ....
Mendicant may as well give the order for his Commonwealth to fall on its sword, rather than accept a scenario where we get overwhelmed by our enemies as all of our regions revolts from under us. There pretty much isn't any point in trying now.
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This war protest coding has completely removed any point in Aurvandil trying to fight now, and even if the coding is scaled back, the damage has been done. We can't repair the damage.
You could start by heeding the advise given on this forum. Your tax rate is still more than 30% higher than the island average. Most of your regions have been getting messages like "Many people are complaining about the high taxes." for pretty much forever. You ignored them or thought you could handle them. Maybe before the everyone-hates-us you could, but now you can't. I can tell you from looking at the code that the tax message is the equivalent of 2-3 of the war protest messages in morale impact. It adds up, you know?
Don't try to blame the game for something that you brought upon yourself at least in parts. Don't expect the dev team to save you if you continue to contribute to making the situation worse for yourself.
Now I agree that war protests should not add up in a linear fashion, and I've just added code to dampen it a bit, so that the 2nd, 3rd, etc. war they protest on counts progressively less. But it will always count for something, and when pretty much half the world has declared that they want you wiped off this earth, don't expect your peasants to wait until it happens. The feudal oath pretty much went "we work for you, and in return you protect us". Right now, your peasants think you've let them down on your obligation of protection.
Lower your tax rates, considerably. I'm not talking 2 points here. At the VERY least you should drop them until you don't get messages complaining about high tax rates anymore. At best, you lower them until you get messages that the peasants are happy about low taxes. And you should err on that side. If I were you, I would go to 5% tax rate RIGHT NOW and then slowly raise it until the happy message disappears and then go back one step so I get it again and stay there until the worst is over.
Also, you need to work double-time on diplomacy and civil work. Get your courtiers and your priests working on changing the peasants opinion of other realms. You should've done that before, but you need to get started on doing that right now, double-time.
The game has LOTS of options to handle bad situations. Complaining on the forum isn't one of them. You are right in pointing out that these protests accumulate too badly, and that has been changed now. But you need to solve your problem within the game, with the tools given to you by the game, which as far as I can see you have not done so far. In two days of complaining, you've not even reduced the tax rates (I'm going round and round about tax rates because that is the most obvious part - it's not so easy for us to see if you've had your diplomats work on changing the peasants minds, etc.
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30% taxes!? God damn, how is that even possible?
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30% taxes!? God damn, how is that even possible?
30% higher than the average. Not 30% rate, I presume.
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30% higher than the average. Not 30% rate, I presume.
Oh, I read that quickly. Thank god.
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I don't see how you can try to blame high tax rates in Aurvandil with a straight face.
We have run the exact same tax rates across the realm continuously since the new estate system was implemented without fault for the entire time (Save for a few experiments in the north where we tried lowering taxes to ease the damage of war protests, didn't do anything), before the new estate system we ran even higher taxes. So Aurvandil collapses entirely within two days as a result of war protests and you say that our taxes are at fault.
I'm not trying to blame the game for "something I brought on myself" I'm blaming the game for an ill considered piece of coding that has needlessly crippled Aurvandil and would in affect, remove the war component of war and entirely erase a realm within days, not that it even makes sense for mass protests in the first place.
And again, I question in what universe a capital of a realm at core control and 80% loyalty would suddenly rise up and try to rebel when it was perfectly fine a turn before. The very notion of that makes the core statistic meaningless, and the loyalty statistic a joke, as it doesn't reflect control or loyalty or the condition the region is actually in.
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*shrugs* If he's not going to listen, then I feel we should just ignore his whining...
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*shrugs* If he's not going to listen, then I feel we should just ignore his whining...
Oh I listened. But it isn't good enough to just say for us to lower our taxes, when as I said regions at core revolt and near full loyalty rise up in revolt only to be put down by soldiers, that doesn't make any in game sense whatsoever and it makes the entire situation a joke.
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.... actually.. the only bit that doesn't make sense is the severity, not the direction.
your regions will still go tits up without the bug. just not that bad.
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We have run the exact same tax rates across the realm continuously since the new estate system was implemented without fault for the entire time (Save for a few experiments in the north where we tried lowering taxes to ease the damage of war protests, didn't do anything), before the new estate system we ran even higher taxes. So Aurvandil collapses entirely within two days as a result of war protests and you say that our taxes are at fault.
Not true--after your attacks on Maeotis/Paisland/Paisly, several of your regions revolted, and several others nearly so. We were scouting your regions.
The only way you can maintain the tax rate you have is by having your army sitting at home performing police/diplo/civil work daily--that's a pretty clear indication that something is seriously wrong with your taxes. The war declarations was just enough to push your regions over the edge.
Follow the advice given you, and see if you keep your regions. If you follow our advice and still lose your regions, then you have a right to complain. Otherwise, you aren't going to get much sympathy from us.
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Not true--after your attacks on Maeotis/Paisland/Paisly, several of your regions revolted, and several others nearly so. We were scouting your regions.
The only way you can maintain the tax rate you have is by having your army sitting at home performing police/diplo/civil work daily--that's a pretty clear indication that something is seriously wrong with your taxes. The war declarations was just enough to push your regions over the edge.
Follow the advice given you, and see if you keep your regions. If you follow our advice and still lose your regions, then you have a right to complain. Otherwise, you aren't going to get much sympathy from us.
They revolted because we neglected to feed them during the witner, it had nothing to do with the tax rates.
We've never had to sit at home doing police work to maintain our regions under their current tax rate.
And yes, I'll have to follow the advice if I am to salvage anything of this wreck.
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We have run the exact same tax rates across the realm continuously since the new estate system was implemented without fault for the entire time
So, you've been holding up 100 pounds over your heads for years. And now someone has added another 100 pounds on top. Don't you think that putting the first hundred pounds down will help you hold up the second hundred until you can get rid of it?
You guys have focused so much on having the ultimate war machine that you've completely neglected everything else in the game. And now it's coming back to bite you. Everyone is giving you very good advice. Use it, even if it means 5 or 6 of your warriors have to put down their swords for the next few weeks.
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So, you've been holding up 100 pounds over your heads for years. And now someone has added another 100 pounds on top. Don't you think that putting the first hundred pounds down will help you hold up the second hundred until you can get rid of it?
You guys have focused so much on having the ultimate war machine that you've completely neglected everything else in the game. And now it's coming back to bite you. Everyone is giving you very good advice. Use it, even if it means 5 or 6 of your warriors have to put down their swords for the next few weeks.
Yes, well we are adjusting tax rates. Though the war protest coding rather cripples any attempt we can make at actually making war, firstly by losing our regions, secondly by impoverishing us, thirdly by killing our own peasants, and fourthly by making us have to delete a large chunk of our army to then have courtiers and diplomats. So we can lose to war protests, or we can lose to our enemies trying to fight the war protests.
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So, you've been holding up 100 pounds over your heads for years. And now someone has added another 100 pounds on top. Don't you think that putting the first hundred pounds down will help you hold up the second hundred until you can get rid of it?
You guys have focused so much on having the ultimate war machine that you've completely neglected everything else in the game. And now it's coming back to bite you. Everyone is giving you very good advice. Use it, even if it means 5 or 6 of your warriors have to put down their swords for the next few weeks.
I doubt that the damage could be repaired with 20 nobles let alone 5 and with the Astrum army imminently arriving...
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I doubt that the damage could be repaired with 20 nobles let alone 5 and with the Astrum army imminently arriving...
Well, some of the damage can be. But many of our regions we may not even be able to arrive in in time to make a difference. The fact the internal situation collapsed in three turns is what is really the annoying part, it fell apart before we even knew there was a problem, let alone before we could do something about it.
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it fell apart before we even knew there was a problem
You had a daily report on it every single day that said "many people complain about high taxes". That is how you are supposed to know that there is a problem.
FYI, when/if you get things stabilized, you can keep things steady when it says "some people are complaining about high taxes".
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Asylon had quite some protests during the last war too,although it didn't hurt us that much. Starvation really crippled used. Despite all that we made it through. My region received 200 bushles just as it was starving like mad a and was enough to get passed the winter.
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Yes, well we are adjusting tax rates. Though the war protest coding rather cripples any attempt we can make at actually making war, firstly by losing our regions, secondly by impoverishing us, thirdly by killing our own peasants, and fourthly by making us have to delete a large chunk of our army to then have courtiers and diplomats. So we can lose to war protests, or we can lose to our enemies trying to fight the war protests.
OH MY GOSH.
AURVANDIL MIGHT BECOME A NORMAL REALM.
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WHAT BLASPHEMY ARE YOU SPEWING, VELLOS!
AURVANDIL IS BETTER THAN ALL!
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The fact the internal situation collapsed in three turns is what is really the annoying part, it fell apart before we even knew there was a problem, let alone before we could do something about it.
This is a stability issue. It is possible to maintain insanely high tax rates and high stats so long as nothing else happens. But regions in that state are extremely fragile. Ask those who have played the "how much can I milk my city for?" game, and they will all tell you that they might run 20-25% taxes, but as soon as anything goes wrong you drop by at least 5%, because if you don't the region collapses. This is not a unique feature of the regional protests. This is one of the reasons you don't see taxes that high in most places, because it is dangerous, and most people are worried about missing some sign of trouble that causes a rapid collapse.
I remember there was some muck up with the food and Askileon went hungry (not starving, just hungry) for a day, and stats dropped 20-25% across the board and control dropped from Core to Province.
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I really do not know the circumstances but it seems clear that Aurvandil may have been neglecting their commoners a bit. At the same time, I would expect complaints of high taxes, protests of war and such to slowly eat away at region stats. The sudden change seems unrealistic. Of course this is all hear say for me!
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This is a stability issue. It is possible to maintain insanely high tax rates and high stats so long as nothing else happens. But regions in that state are extremely fragile. Ask those who have played the "how much can I milk my city for?" game, and they will all tell you that they might run 20-25% taxes, but as soon as anything goes wrong you drop by at least 5%, because if you don't the region collapses. This is not a unique feature of the regional protests. This is one of the reasons you don't see taxes that high in most places, because it is dangerous, and most people are worried about missing some sign of trouble that causes a rapid collapse.
I remember there was some muck up with the food and Askileon went hungry (not starving, just hungry) for a day, and stats dropped 20-25% across the board and control dropped from Core to Province.
So taxes set at 5% is fine?
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So taxes set at 5% is fine?
If you have taxes at 5%, you shouldn't have any problems maintaing your regions unless they are actively starving or being attacked by hostile forces. Rebuilding them after they have collapsed is, unfortunately, a hell of a lot harder.
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So taxes set at 5% is fine?
used to be you can only drop max 5% a day. if i remember correctly. seems to be no limit as such now given how the tax rate drop down list is shown nowadays
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used to be you can only drop max 5% a day. if i remember correctly. seems to be no limit as such now given how the tax rate drop down list is shown nowadays
Which is very good!
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I don't see how you can try to blame high tax rates in Aurvandil with a straight face.
We have run the exact same tax rates across the realm continuously since the new estate system was implemented without fault for the entire time (Save for a few experiments in the north where we tried lowering taxes to ease the damage of war protests, didn't do anything), before the new estate system we ran even higher taxes. So Aurvandil collapses entirely within two days as a result of war protests and you say that our taxes are at fault.
You can listen to me or you can plug your ears and go "la la la", the choice is yours, but only one of these options will actually help you.
Yes, you could run those taxes BEFORE HALF THE WORLD DECLARED WAR ON YOU.
Does that mean they have no effect? No.
Does it mean you should be able to run them now? No.
Your regions WERE getting those tax complaint messages every day, weren't they? Before, however, positive effects compensated, so you were essentially having stable morale.
Now with the war protests, you feel the FULL force of the war protests. If you weren't running a limit tax rate, you would NOT - you would have some positive morale effects left to compensate for parts of it.
You run your engine on its physical limits, don't be surprised if it blows up when it meets a bump in the road, and while you can blame the bump, your driving style DID contribute.
And until you realize that and act on it, we have nothing to discuss. I see that a few of your regions have now reduced tax rates, though by far not as much as I had suggested. But you will probably notice a difference in the morale drops between those and the other 2/3rd of your regions which are still running high tax rates.
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No protests against the war with Barca? I mean they are neighbors.
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This coding destroys the tactical aspect of the war, it puts the power entirely in the hands of one side, SA in this case. How can you expect us to even begin to fight this war when all our regions are revolting, when Sea Travel makes it way too easy for SA to land anywhere on the coast and begin a takeover. This isnt even a practical code for the times, there was a thing known as patriotism, the belief in ones nation and ones ruler.
There were people that followed every word their rulers said unto their dying breath. I already pointed out earlier in this thread that during the mid-evil times in England there were some villages and towns that had no idea that their nation was at war with the french for more than a century. So if they had no knowledge of the war how can they protest to it? They cannot. Declarations of war were not always released to the general public, and especially not immediately after they were declared. Especially regions on the fringes of the realm. It, in a practical and realistic sense, would take time for the message to reach the outlying regions and a turn after war is declared there are protests and region revolts to the declaration.
To me it also doesn't make a lot of sense that peasants would protest against their own realm after their own realm had war declared against them. It would be slightly more reasonable and believable if they were protesting a war that Aurvandil declared, but they are not.
It just outrages me that this stuff happens. Similar things happened in Thulsoma with the entirety of the northern realms, with the exception of Averoth, ganged up on Thulsoma simply because they would not accept SA as their official religion. Then they cried about it when they could not break the level 6 walls the stronghold in Storms Keep had.
This code makes it unfair for Aurvandil, there is no longer a tactical aspect to war. There is the mass declaration of war and then watch as the target realm crumbles into rubble and ash from the inside out because of protests to the DECLARATION of a war. Not even the actual war taking place yet. The mere declaration sends a realm into an uproar... How does that make any sense?
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Because your people are scared that half the continent is seeking to destroy you. Also, simultaneous declaration of war is pretty tactical. It's not like war protest is something new - you should have had the foresight to prepare for it, firstly by bringing down taxes, secondly by making sure your people are hateful towards the SA and Moot realms.
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Patriotism? Patriot peasants in the middle age?... ;D
Your peasant only know you are one realm at war with more realms than they can count... And they protest, with good reasons, because they are going to be killed for fun, and their wives and daughters are going to 'give a lot of fun' (before killed) at the soldiers of this enemy realms... then, they will burn all their town and go to the next one in their path to Candiels.
honestly, I would protest too!
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Let's not forget there are also alliance protests and those hurt too.
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First, you are going at this with the base assumption that it is unfair towards you. That's a category mistake - the code is a fact of the game world and has been for a very long time, longer than your realm exists. So it can't be unfair to you any more than a tornado is. Sure it might suck to have your house blown apart, I can certainly understand the outrage - but by assuming a position as if this were a directed force against you, you are already missing half the point.
Two, your realm, which is well-known for being able to rapidly and very successfully coordinate turn-by-turn army movements STILL has an average tax rate of about 12%, with several regions at 15% and above. To me, this says that complaining on the forum is more important to you guys than actually doing what you can do to solve the real issue, that of very low region stats.
Three, broad statements like "this destroys everything" are almost always untrue. They show you are outraged to the point of tunnel vision. Please snap out of that, it does nobody any good.
Four. as several comments show by example, the roleplaying aspect of BM sometimes consists of making sense of the game events. The game only says "protest". It doesn't say if the peasants are unhappy about or afraid of the war. It doesn't say if they protest so you make peace or if they protest that you seemingly can't protect them. Making sense of the protest is more productive towards a game atmosphere than arguing on the forum about realism.
BM tries to be realistic to the "suspension of disbelief" point, but not to the "simulation" point.
Five, diplomacy IS a tactical aspect of the game. BM is not a pure strategy game, it has a huge political aspect to it. It appears that while your realm has shown it can wipe the floor with most enemies on the battlefield, your enemies have just demonstrated that they can wipe the floor with you in the halls of diplomacy.
That is why diplomacy protests aren't destroying anything in the game, they are part of the game. It's like snipers in FPS games - everyone hates them and sure it sucks being shot in the head by a guy you can't even see - but it's a part of the game and you need to figure it into your strategy.
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Five, diplomacy IS a tactical aspect of the game. BM is not a pure strategy game, it has a huge political aspect to it. It appears that while your realm has shown it can wipe the floor with most enemies on the battlefield, your enemies have just demonstrated that they can wipe the floor with you in the halls of diplomacy.
That is why diplomacy protests aren't destroying anything in the game, they are part of the game. It's like snipers in FPS games - everyone hates them and sure it sucks being shot in the head by a guy you can't even see - but it's a part of the game and you need to figure it into your strategy.
Shouldn't the fact that like 10 realms are gangbanging them be enough of a punishment for the bad diplomacy? Why should the game influence things in the favor of the guys with the enormous numerical advantage?
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Shouldn't the fact that like 10 realms are gangbanging them be enough of a punishment for the bad diplomacy? Why should the game influence things in the favor of the guys with the enormous numerical advantage?
Its Aurvandil's fault. You are saying the game is punishing, but its not true- the players are punishing Aurvandil though if they would have done proper diplomacy work they would be fine. When I say proper diplomacy work I do not mean making sure that war isn't declared on them by a bunch of realms, it's that if they saw it as quite possible ahead of time, which they did- then they should of have had their diplomats bad mouthing the realms they were going to war with. If they have no diplomats to change the peasants sympathies, it is the characters' faults for none being one because it is a choice that none can command other to do, it does not mean that they can't be hurt due to it.
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Why should the game influence things in the favor of the guys with the enormous numerical advantage?
"The game" does not influence anything in favor of anyone, or against anyone. The game responds to the situation set up by the players. It doesn't care who is who, or anything like that. All it knows is that Realm X is at war with Realms A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I. And that the peasants of Realm X happen to *like* Realms A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I. So regardless of how the war happened, they are going to be pissed off at their government, either through "Why the hell did you declare war on all these guys, we love them?!" protests, or "How could you be so stupid as to piss off so many of these people that they all declared war on us?!" protests.
Certain people completely ignored some basic mechanics of the game, and ignored or misunderstood what the game was telling them. Proper preparation via diplomats/ambassadors or priests (oh wait, that's right, religion is, for all intents and purposes, illegal there, regardless of assertions otherwise), having courtiers and other non-combat roles standing by (oh wait, that's right, that realm doesn't believe in non-combat roles), lowering tax rates to something that doesn't cause the peasants to be pissed at you to begin with, and, how about this: maybe NOT planning a secession a day before you *know* the !@#$ is gonna hit the fan.
There is a huge confluence of negative factors all coming together at the same time that caused this to happen, and many experienced players could have predicted something like this, given a good idea of the sequence of events that were going to occur. You cannot ignore all the facets of the game you don't feel like dealing with, and expect nothing to come of it.
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Aurvandil's players think they are playing on the old war islands.
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Tom when i want to invade some realm ill pm you and you can make me teleport feature mkay?
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There is a huge confluence of negative factors all coming together at the same time that caused this to happen, and many experienced players could have predicted something like this, given a good idea of the sequence of events that were going to occur. You cannot ignore all the facets of the game you don't feel like dealing with, and expect nothing to come of it.
At least one experienced player (me) was calculating his strategy reliant upon the assumption that declarations by even distant powers would matter. Didn't no it'd be so huge– but I wouldn't have gone to so much effort if I thought the only northern contributions to the war would be in swords and bodies.
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Tom when i want to invade some realm ill pm you and you can make me teleport feature mkay?
...because trolling makes your argument so much more convincing. Especially trolling the guy that created, runs and provides without charge the game that you're playing.
Right?
Don't be disingenuous. You're smart people: that you can manage your military as well as you have proves that. There is no developer conspiracy against you. The fact is that BattleMaster is about war in all of its aspects, and those extend far beyond simply "I have the bigger army." While you have an excellent military, you have neglected (and in some instances, completely rejected) other aspects of the game that ultimately tie in to how a war plays out.
You've essentially done the same thing as Robb in A Song of Ice and Fire. Sure, you can win on the battlefield with swords. But it wasn't on the battlefield that you lost your war.
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Tom when i want to invade some realm ill pm you and you can make me teleport feature mkay?
What is this I don't even...
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Tom when i want to invade some realm ill pm you and you can make me teleport feature mkay?
Trololol :o
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Tom when i want to invade some realm ill pm you and you can make me teleport feature mkay?
Are you in an SA realm? Coz that's a good idea to help them war those damn Aurvandilians!
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well.. obviously you missed the boat on the teleport. we've been doing it a couple of years back.
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IIRC there are teleport scrolls in the game already.
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Though the effects do seem extreme, doing so poorly at diplomacy that so many realms declare war on you is rather extreme as well.
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Tom when i want to invade some realm ill pm you and you can make me teleport feature mkay?
Sure. Send me $2,000 like the other guys have... oh, wait... they haven't.
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IIRC there are teleport scrolls in the game already.
I can confirm this, Gustav Kuriga used teleportation scrolls to travel across the continent. They CANNOT, however, teleport units, only nobles.
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I can confirm this, Gustav Kuriga used teleportation scrolls to travel across the continent. They CANNOT, however, teleport units, only nobles.
do you get to choose where to teleport to?
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Also I just want to say, toxic OOC messages do not help anybody. There is NO discussion on how to fix the situation before the ships arrive. Instead it's just a huge "dev-team conspiracy" circle jerk. It's really insulting as a player to get nothing but garbage OOC message for 2 days straight.
Why don't we do something about it instead of complaining. It's happened. Nothing's getting changed. It's on us if we want to save Aurvandil. (Which I do)
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If I recall correctly, Tom did change some code to reduce the effect of multiple war declarations. So something did change. It may not have been the change your compatriots were hoping for though.
I really hope to see you guys manage to pull through the situation though. From what I have read, Aurvandil provides a lot of fun to the game. I would hate to see such a colorful realm get taken out so easily. Do not give up! Fight on!
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do you get to choose where to teleport to?
Yes, so if you get an infiltrator with several of those, you're a very happy man.
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You've essentially done the same thing as Robb in A Song of Ice and Fire. Sure, you can win on the battlefield with swords. But it wasn't on the battlefield that you lost your war.
NA NA NA NA NA NOT LISTENING!
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if there's such a thing as conspiracy... then the quick and simple thing would be... zuma. or quick account delete or some such. no point having to involve anyone else.
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Also I just want to say, toxic OOC messages do not help anybody. There is NO discussion on how to fix the situation before the ships arrive. Instead it's just a huge "dev-team conspiracy" circle jerk. It's really insulting as a player to get nothing but garbage OOC message for 2 days straight.
Why don't we do something about it instead of complaining. It's happened. Nothing's getting changed. It's on us if we want to save Aurvandil. (Which I do)
I agree, I Really HATE Aurvandil, I will make whatever takes to destroy it!!! ... IG. But OOG I must admit they are fun to play against... what better than an evil godless realm! ;D
I hope they will get out of this in one piece... well, maybe better if is in two or three pieces?
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A lot of players seem to like Aurvandil. They have the most characters.
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Also I just want to say, toxic OOC messages do not help anybody. There is NO discussion on how to fix the situation before the ships arrive. Instead it's just a huge "dev-team conspiracy" circle jerk. It's really insulting as a player to get nothing but garbage OOC message for 2 days straight.
Indeed. There was a similar explosion of OOC messages badmouthing the dev team as being a massive conspiracy against them in both Averoth and Thulsoma.
I would like to point out a few things, that I hope that Mendicant will take to heart, and into the in-game discussion (I can't remember, is he played by DamnTaffer or NoblessChevaleresque?):
- The devs have already located two separate bugs that, together, made this effect much greater than it would otherwise have been. These bugs have been fixed. No, the damage hasn't been reverted: we just don't do that. We didn't take away the family gold that Thulsoma got through exploits, either.
- The situation that Aurvandil has come across is, indeed, an unusual one. In addition to the bugs (one of which may have caused extremely high sympathy to the SA realms in some regions), they had a large number of realms declare war on them, immediately after a secession, when they had already been running very high tax rates, and without any non-combat-class nobles available to mitigate the damage beforehand or repair it afterwards. This unusual—even unprecedented—confluence of circumstances can make it appear as though there's something shady going here. However, if you take it all apart and look carefully, you'll find that only the bugs have anything to do with the devs' actions or lack thereof. All the rest is due to Aurvandil's own action and inaction.
- Despite what has been claimed, both previously in Thulsoma and Averoth and again in Aurvandil, the devs do not run SA. In fact, there are only two devs in SA, and neither of them writes code. I know of at least three other devs on Dwilight (including myself) who have, at various times, interacted with SA, but who have never been on better than lukewarm terms with them. As a concrete example, Alanna Anaris, during her time as Queen of Pian en Luries, invited SA priests to the realm, but had already ensured that they would find next to no interest in the religion amongst the nobility. She has always opposed SA hegemony in the southeast.
Naturally, you can dismiss all this as lies designed to take suspicion away from the true conspiracy. Indeed, that's the usual response when someone provides evidence that contradicts a conspiracy theory, even when it is not provided by someone who is accused of being part of the conspiracy. However, I would hope that Mendicant's player has enough integrity to at least provide this information to his realm in-game, to let them see a rebuttal of all the hatred and flaming being spewed there in OOC messages, even if some of them will dismiss it as nothing but propaganda.
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I agree, I Really HATE Aurvandil, I will make whatever takes to destroy it!!! ... IG. But OOG I must admit they are fun to play against... what better than an evil godless realm! ;D
I hope they will get out of this in one piece... well, maybe better if is in two or three pieces?
i completly agree.
It's a bit sad some players feel taht everyones against them or something.
While perhaps most of us really like to see a realm like aurvendil around even thou it destroyed the realm and culture you worked years on and plays an pagan one.
Unfortunatly as others have said, these players are extremly paranoid and beliecve everyones against them in an OOC plot.
Which is only true to the part that there diplomatic actions had logical consequences in game, like taking regions claimed or owned by other realms, close to there culutral center or capital, a pagan/heathen stance and other claims or statements that would in any situation not positively benfit its diplomatic stance with others.
Perhaps it comes from the many acusations lots of players made against them for beeing in a clan (me included, i still see it that way) and even multi acount cheating, just or not.
It went on for a long while and probably still does for some.
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Do the theocracies actually have gods? Stars are not exactly gods.
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Do the theocracies actually have gods? Stars are not exactly gods.
No. They do not worship gods. They do not deny the existence of gods however.
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The Bloodstars are divine things. They are not explicitly described as "gods", though they are worshiped and prayed to.
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btw... has anyone looked at sympathy towards a brand new realm formed from secession (from the point of view of all the other realms) yet?
eg.
all regions of A B at low sympathy to each other
C split from B
how does A view C? (don't think the regions of C would view A differently, not much anyway)
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Regarding the no atheism policy I saw on wiki. How does Aurvandil fit here?
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btw... has anyone looked at sympathy towards a brand new realm formed from secession (from the point of view of all the other realms) yet?
eg.
all regions of A B at low sympathy to each other
C split from B
how does A view C? (don't think the regions of C would view A differently, not much anyway)
It feels random, even though it probably isn't. Sure feels like the regions sometimes have much higher sympathy for new realms than their parent realms.
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Regarding the no atheism policy I saw on wiki. How does Aurvandil fit here?
They are considered pagans.
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Wow, I just read this. Finally the silver tongue is stronger than a sword eh?
Diplomacy is going be a key part of realm survival. Time to badmouth every realm other than my own realm, should do the trick then 8)
If the message "Realm A people protest over alliance with realm B" appear, time to solve this before any big war is declared. Or else suffer the consequence... ;)
Here's something for you all to think about. If you have a good silver tongue Ambassador/Diplomat.
8 hours of Badmouth Realm B in my realm region.
You spend your bribe money, and are admitted to the mansion of a group of minor nobility known for keeping abreast of local events. You sit down in an elegant parlor with your host and his friends, and talk with them for 8 hours. You feel like your tongue is silver tonight, and every word comes out just right. You feel that your position as Ambassador is lending your words some additional weight in the minds of your listeners.
Your arguments and descriptions are dazzling tonight, and not a person there fails to be impressed. They are hanging on your every word about realm B, and before the end of the evening, you are assured by several very influential people there that they will make sure that everyone they know hears just how bad realm B really is. You have a hard time leaving, with so many people telling you that they would be glad to host another such event for you.
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Wow, I just read this. Finally the silver tongue is stronger than a sword eh?
Diplomacy is going be a key part of realm survival. Time to badmouth every realm other than my own realm, should do the trick then 8)
If the message "Realm A people protest over alliance with realm B" appear, time to solve this before any big war is declared. Or else suffer the consequence... ;)
Here's something for you all to think about. If you have a good silver tongue Ambassador/Diplomat.
I think it will be ideal for you to keep a balance instead of choosing either way of the extreme in the game of diplomacy.
if the people don't care about foreign realms(indiferent, not wary) they won't protest over any of your decisions.
If your talking about regions that don't belong to your realm, just make sure those people love your realm, it has many advantages.
The region will protest once war is declared, and if it goes rogue it will join your realm most likley.
This way you could even join a war of your ally and not attack the enemy physicaly, but just with protest and by waiting for there regions to be looted rogue by your ally. ;)
A nice sneaky deal.
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The epic struggle between Aurvandil and Terran rages on as Aurvandil plays Courtiermaster while Terran's allies all mutiny due to being too far away from home. Terran for it's part undertakes a perilous expedition against the mighty horde of <20 (!!!) monsters marauding across it's Northernmost regions. Never before has such a cataclysmic struggle between two cosmic titans ever been fought!
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From what I've seen, peasants seem to like almost every realm. Few are those they are indifferent to or hate. I thinks looting helps them hate neighbors.
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... here's another thought...
a dead realm (ie... no regions, just the odd noble or 2 staying in there) can still exert such influence (until it gets deleted by tom or some such...)
obviously, it can be dealt with by our own diplomats.... (i'm doing that..) but still..
or for that matter... they can have their diplomats doing stuff... theoretically.
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I find this whole debacle a nice example of imperial overstretch.
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Holy thread necromancy. Please look at the date of the last post in a thread before bumping it. This one has been dead for a month.
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same topic, new material. don't remember anyone talking about effects and dead realm before.