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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Magistrates Case Archive => Topic started by: BattleMaster Server on November 12, 2012, 04:11:59 PM

Title: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: BattleMaster Server on November 12, 2012, 04:11:59 PM
Summary:Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Violation:Realm Mergers Rule
World:Dwilight
Complainer:Lyman Stone (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=10403)
About:Allison (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=29042)

Full Complaint Text:
By her own confession and by obvious fact, Allison has ceded Golden Farrow, the last city and capital of Kabrinskia, to Astrum. She did this despite a very recent Magistrate case:


http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3396.75.html


Wherein realm mergers had been extensively discussed. It seems highly unlikely she was unaware of the rule given the depth and breadth of recent discussions.


She claims she thought the ban changed things somehow– but this is untenable, as, to my knowledge, there is no game indication whatsoever that this may be the case.


This is a bug, and a widely known bug. It has been clearly exploited right after a Magistrate case relating to it. This can be quickly and easily addressed– and should be, and severely.


Also, THIS BUG NEEDS TO BE FIXED. This is the third time this bug has been exploited for one reason or another. This should be a very high priority.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Vellos on November 12, 2012, 04:12:22 PM
I will recuse myself from voting on the verdict.

This should be very quick.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Anaris on November 12, 2012, 04:27:35 PM
A point of fact:

Unless there is something I do not know about, this is the second time this has happened, not the third. The moving of the Duchy of Sun Hall to Luria Nova did not leave the realm deprived of duchies or regions capable of being the capital.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Naidraug on November 12, 2012, 04:29:53 PM
Another note too: Earlier today a Dev member warned that the player couldn't do that change because Golden Farrow was the only duchy of the realm, the player still changed.

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1421.1605.html

(page 108 - last 4 posts)
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Vellos on November 12, 2012, 04:51:56 PM
A point of fact:

Unless there is something I do not know about, this is the second time this has happened, not the third. The moving of the Duchy of Sun Hall to Luria Nova did not leave the realm deprived of duchies or regions capable of being the capital.

Surrender of Hammarsett was #1.

People often forget it.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Anaris on November 12, 2012, 04:52:37 PM
Surrender of Hammarsett was #1.

People often forget it.

Ah! I'm not sure I even knew about it to begin with ;D
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on November 12, 2012, 05:01:09 PM
I really think it's the fault of the system, as it relies on people being in-tune with what's on the forums in order for people to realize something is a bug and not normal. IF there had been a general announcement on battlemaster regarding the first magistrate case, this wouldn't have happened.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Vellos on November 12, 2012, 05:03:00 PM
Except for the part where Allison was personally told this was a no-no.

And the player of Allison is very regular and active on the forum.

Though I agree we need a better announcement system.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: ^ban^ on November 12, 2012, 05:51:03 PM
Except for the part where Allison was personally told this was a no-no.

And the player of Allison is very regular and active on the forum.

Though I agree we need a better announcement system.

A better announcement system than an easily and publicly accessible forum dedicated to exactly these kinds of things?

Really?
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: dustole on November 12, 2012, 05:53:05 PM
I was told I couldnt do it.  I took that as it isnt possible not that it was an exploit.  It wasnt specified.  When I had the option in Golden Farrow I assumed there was a reason for it.  I was banned and had only one option.



As for reading the Forums...  I do so sporatically. I didnt even know about the Aurvandil war protests until it was pointed out to me and the thread was over 6 pages long already.

No punishments were announced for the Solaro incident and the nobles involved were still Dukes/Lords.  I play mostly by phone and I dont read all the Forums.

Just recently Anaris commented that I live in a Forum black hole since I had no idea about some of the things going dow in Aurvandil
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Naidraug on November 12, 2012, 06:16:15 PM
The Solari incident punishment was a 1 day lockout.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Dante Silverfire on November 12, 2012, 06:17:01 PM
Surrender of Hammarsett was #1.

People often forget it.

I believe an important distinction between the surrender of Hammarsett and this case is that while the surrender of Hammarsett was an exploit of the duchy movement bug, it was not in fact a realm merger as it was not done on friendly terms.

The current case was done on friendly terms with prior permission from leadership within Astrum. A(At least based upon Allison's IC letters)
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Indirik on November 12, 2012, 06:27:34 PM
I don't believe Hammarsett qualifies as a merger of equals. Hammarsett got the crap beaten out of it. As a single region realm it completely surrendered and gave up to Coria. That's different ahn a completely healthy, viable, and prosperous realm like Kabrinskia joining Astrum whole.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Dante Silverfire on November 12, 2012, 06:35:49 PM
I don't currently have access to a computer so I can't copy and paste the In game message right now but it appears that Allison and the Vasilif of Astrum pre-planned the move explicitly to work around game limitations.

To clarify: The Vasilif (Ruler?) Of Astrum just stated that Allison moved the duchy to Astrum with the preconceived intent to simply secede the duchy again as a new realm as soon as she is able. This is explicitly against the game mechanic that prevents the Duke of the capital from seceding to form a new realm and it seems was planned as such so that a character can avoid in game consequences.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Indirik on November 12, 2012, 06:50:39 PM
Quote from: Sergio
Letter from Sergio Mozzoni   (41 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in message group "Vasilif's Council" (7 recipients)
Lady Allison asked for political asylum for her and her duchy. I granted her a home in Astrum and offered an estate in Eidulb but not to her lands, of course. I'll share my correspondance with you asap.

Now we should focus on calming the situation and rebulding former Kabrinskia.

Please share your thoughts with this council. Any help is welcomed.
Sergio Mozzoni
Vasilif of Astrum
Duke of Eidulb
Margrave of Eidulb

That's the only message Sergio (ruler of Astrum) has had to say IG about the events that transpired. If there was any kind of agreement to accept the lands of Kabrinskia into Astrum, he didn't mention anything to anyone. He is, however, working to make plans to reform the realm. Not sure who he plans to have do it...
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Naidraug on November 12, 2012, 06:52:58 PM
The messages we have about this issue are:

Quote
Letter from Allison Kabrinski   (23 hours, 46 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (18 recipients)
If Brom doesnt remove the ban or if we dont protest him out of office I will join the Duchy to another realm to save my seat. Astrum and Dhara have said they would accept me.


I encourage you all to continue the protests
Allison Kabrinski
Duchess of the Maddening Star
Margravine of Golden Farrow
Priestess of Sanguis Astroism

and the one spoken about by Dante is:

Quote
Orders from Sergio Mozzoni   (33 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (46 recipients)
Nobles of Astrum, old and new,

Recent events have rejoined us under the banner of Astrum. It's a pleasure to meet our brothers and sisters again but this situation is only temporary. We should focus on preparing the secession of Golden Farrow and its duchy, once the political situation is clear and all parties agree.
Sergio Mozzoni
Vasilif of Astrum
Duke of Eidulb
Margrave of Eidulb

Hope this helps. This shows that Allison had already discussed this with them.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Indirik on November 12, 2012, 06:55:47 PM
Yes, that is the public message Sergio sent. The prior one I posted, where Sergio says that he did not give permission for her to bring her lands over, was in the ruler's private council.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: dustole on November 12, 2012, 07:36:18 PM
Astrum told me no and I did anyway.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Penchant on November 12, 2012, 11:25:21 PM
The messages we have about this issue are:

and the one spoken about by Dante is:

Hope this helps. This shows that Allison had already discussed this with them.
From a ruler stand point, you want to make everything sound planned as it sounds bad to say it wasn't, so he was replying IC not with the truth, as he was merely doing IC propaganda.

Also, I would like to suggest that on the secession page it states this bug in bold, red, and made big so that those who think about seceding know about this people can't say I didn't know. Ban previously said that how is the forum not the best place to announce this, as the certain people like to point out at times, those on the forum are the minority, not the majority. Important announcements should be made on the game, be it through the announcements, a short OOC message sent to everyone, or a message  put on the page, in the game is where the important announcements should be made.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Chenier on November 13, 2012, 12:16:23 AM
I really think it's the fault of the system, as it relies on people being in-tune with what's on the forums in order for people to realize something is a bug and not normal. IF there had been a general announcement on battlemaster regarding the first magistrate case, this wouldn't have happened.

I agree.

Why on earth is this even possible? To the layman not frequenting the forums, one would have seen others do it without anything to suggest it wasn't ok.

While ignorance of the law is not an excuse, and that an experienced player as himself really ought to know better, I really do feel like this should have been made impossible a long time ago.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: BardicNerd on November 13, 2012, 12:28:36 AM
Is it really a realm merger if the ruler of Kabrinska didn't have any say in it?  It seems like it's more a case of a duke taking their duchy away without the permission of the rest of the realm . . . now, it's possibly exploitation of a bug that they could do so, but that's not actually a merger in the sense that we've been told is Bad.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Dante Silverfire on November 13, 2012, 12:44:19 AM
Is it really a realm merger if the ruler of Kabrinska didn't have any say in it?  It seems like it's more a case of a duke taking their duchy away without the permission of the rest of the realm . . . now, it's possibly exploitation of a bug that they could do so, but that's not actually a merger in the sense that we've been told is Bad.

What is the definition of realm merger other than:

1. All nobles of realm A join realm B.
2. All regions of realm A join realm B.
3. Aside from government positions, all nobles from realm A retain all of their titles.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Anaris on November 13, 2012, 12:46:41 AM
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: fodder on November 13, 2012, 01:05:38 AM
a quick band-aid would be an announcement post.

something like

"duchy flipping is a bit buggy atm. you are not meant to be able to flip the last duchy. don't do it."

the issue is not whether it's a merger, that is sort of irrelevant. the person who flipped the duchy is ultimately responsible for flipping a duchy that isn't meant to be flippable.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Chenier on November 13, 2012, 01:17:58 AM
As I'm quite sure was mentioned in the earlier threads on this subject:

It was impossible. Then we rewrote the code that handles this stuff from scratch due to a completely new hierarchy system and the Doctrine transition. This check was lost in translation somehow.

Since the earlier instances, the dev team has not had the time and energy to dive into this code and fix the bug.

If you're still sore about it, go become a PHP super-whiz so you can join the dev team and fix every single bug in BattleMaster before any player could possibly find it. Based on your tone in this and many other posts, I'm quite sure you're just super-mega-awesome enough to do that in no time flat, right?

If there really isn't time to fix it, then a band-aid solution of letting everyone who saw the events know it wasn't okay would be in order. Instead, everyone saw the Solaria merger, and no visible consequences came out of it for those who don't follow the magistrates' subforum.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: egamma on November 13, 2012, 01:37:21 AM
The messages we have about this issue are:
Letter from Allison Kabrinski   (23 hours, 46 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (18 recipients)
If Brom doesnt remove the ban or if we dont protest him out of office I will join the Duchy to another realm to save my seat. Astrum and Dhara have said they would accept me.


I encourage you all to continue the protests
Allison Kabrinski
Duchess of the Maddening Star
Margravine of Golden Farrow
Priestess of Sanguis Astroism

As an aside, D'Hara's ruler (after myself and other lords pointed out the rule violation) told Allison she could not join D'Hara. I'm not sure if our ruler pointed out the rule violation or if he kept his communication IC.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: dustole on November 13, 2012, 01:51:39 AM
Neither Astrum or D'Hara said yes.  Astrum said I could join but not my regions.  D'Hara asked for time to think about it.   The Judge "asked me to leave".   My letter was propaganda. 
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: House Talratheon on November 13, 2012, 04:26:24 AM
What is the definition of realm merger other than:

1. All nobles of realm A join realm B.
2. All regions of realm A join realm B.
3. Aside from government positions, all nobles from realm A retain all of their titles.

Using this argument, only "friendly realm mergers" are unallowed the realm council stupidly chose to ban the last Duke/Duchess of their realm and instead of the Duke/Duchess taking it lying down she chose to take her duchy with her. None of those falls under "friendly" terms, apparently it was done in protest to her ban and in spite of the judge and King that banned her, nothing about this says "friendly".

If the King and Judge didn't want this to happen .. then they shouldn't have attempted to ban a Duchess/Duke they hold considerable power, it's why they hold power to appoint Regional Lords.


Lets note that none of the three above are fault of the accused.

In Closing was there a merger? Yes, a merger of one duchy moving into another realm. However this was done on unfriendly terms and not in violation of the official rules of "No FRIENDLY mergers" However technically by game mechanics should not have been possible. But we aren't arguing the semantics of game mechanics rather than if the accused party is guilty of violating a rule of the game. There was a civil internal strife in her previous kingdom that attempted to ban her in which turn she'd lose her Ducal seat, position as Margravine and instead of losing it all preferred to simply move her duchy away.

So If I was to make an opinion based on this, I'd say she isn't guilty however the dev. team should work on factors to prevent this from happening in the future.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Draco Tanos on November 13, 2012, 04:52:04 AM
Common sense also dictates that one cannot, or should not be able to, merge an entire realm as Duke. 

It is well known that such actions were prohibited by code before they rewrote it in the new language. 

Either way, the player should have realized that it seemed strange and at least ASKED someone before hand.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Velax on November 13, 2012, 04:54:59 AM
By Tom's own definition in the other Magistrates case, this is not a realm merger, friendly or otherwise:

A "friendly realm merger" does not require a precise definition of every word. What I intend by those words is that I don't want realm A and realm B to sit together and say "hey, as one realm we would have better game mechanics on our side" or whatever, and then simply join up.

What happened here was NOT the scenario I see as a "friendly realm merger", because it was not an agreed act of cooperation between two parties. You can discuss the "friendly" part if you want, but there wasn't a merger. Whatever you call it, and it sure is a strange event, but it's not the event I ruled disallowed.

Certainly seems as if both sides did not sit down and say that they should merge because the game mechanics would then favour them.

This case should have been brought forward on the basis of it being a bug exploit, not a breaking of the realm merging rule. But you would need to prove that dustole knew it was a bug, despite there being no in-game announcement that it was. I would argue that this is not an obvious exploit - in the way that getting infinite family gold is, for example, or falsely reporting sensitive message as vulgar in the hopes that another realm will read and act on them - and people should not be necessarily expected to know it is a bug. As I said in another thread, if this bug won't be fixed quickly, then there needs to be a message put on the Secession page for dukes.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Dante Silverfire on November 13, 2012, 05:41:27 AM
Using this argument, only "friendly realm mergers" are unallowed the realm council stupidly chose to ban the last Duke/Duchess of their realm and instead of the Duke/Duchess taking it lying down she chose to take her duchy with her. None of those falls under "friendly" terms, apparently it was done in protest to her ban and in spite of the judge and King that banned her, nothing about this says "friendly".

If the King and Judge didn't want this to happen .. then they shouldn't have attempted to ban a Duchess/Duke they hold considerable power, it's why they hold power to appoint Regional Lords.

  • Should this have been able to happen? No.
  • Should it have been announced in some form, in game until the issue was addressed? Yes.
  • Was it? No.

Lets note that none of the three above are fault of the accused.

In Closing was there a merger? Yes, a merger of one duchy moving into another realm. However this was done on unfriendly terms and not in violation of the official rules of "No FRIENDLY mergers" However technically by game mechanics should not have been possible. But we aren't arguing the semantics of game mechanics rather than if the accused party is guilty of violating a rule of the game. There was a civil internal strife in her previous kingdom that attempted to ban her in which turn she'd lose her Ducal seat, position as Margravine and instead of losing it all preferred to simply move her duchy away.

So If I was to make an opinion based on this, I'd say she isn't guilty however the dev. team should work on factors to prevent this from happening in the future.

I would just like to point out, that the ban was made intentionally with the knowledge that it was "impossible" for Allison to take her duchy away with her.

My character wouldn't be so stupid as to ban someone who could actually get away with taking regions away from the realm in order to avoid it.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: ^ban^ on November 13, 2012, 02:41:05 PM
If you should have known, it's an exploit. Otherwise, it's a mistake. There is no point in making knowing more difficult than it should be. Figuring out the rules is not part of the game.

In this case, dustole was both aware that the action should not have been possible (re: a bug) and that the action was against the rules (re: cheating). He did it anyway.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Fury on November 13, 2012, 02:47:38 PM
Realm mergers as stated in the rules and policies does not, as originally envisioned,  refer to a 'push button to join' another realm but through the welcome and friendly take over of all the regions of a realm which is not allowed. Realm mergers are only allowed if all its regions are taken over through war. This would be the meaning of 'no friendly realm mergers allowed'. Also, previously, the last duchy (with the capital) could not join another realm. This was regulated through game mechanics.

It is currently through a bug that realm mergers with the last duchy containing the capital can join another realm by 'pushing a button'. Even so, any merger of an entire realm by its original conception whether it is by by pushing a button or through the friendly takeover of all its regions outside of a war is not allowed.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: vonGenf on November 14, 2012, 12:45:22 PM
Still considered a friendly realm merger. Want to take on destroy realm A, realm B take over all regions.

Wrong. Refer to the rule:

Quote
Realm mergers are illegal. Realms may surrender to another, including annihilation of their lands, but they may not merge as equal entities on friendly terms.

Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: egamma on November 14, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
Offtopic posts have been moved:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3499.15.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3499.15.html)

A reminder of the rules:
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Fury on November 15, 2012, 08:48:44 PM
In the case of Kabrinskia Realm Merger the Magistrates unanimously find the accused, the player of Allison (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=29042): Guilty- 3 day lock, 5 votes (100%).

Rules and Policies (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies#Policies)
Quote
Realm mergers are illegal. Realms may surrender to another, including annihilation of their lands, but they may not merge as equal entities on friendly terms.

Realm mergers as stated in the Rules and Policies does not, as originally envisioned, refer to a 'push button to join' another realm but through the welcome and friendly take over of all the regions of a realm which is not allowed. Realm mergers are only allowed if all its regions are taken over through war. This would be the meaning of 'no friendly realm mergers allowed'. Also, previously, the last duchy (with the capital) could not join another realm. This was regulated through game mechanics.

It is currently through a bug that realm mergers with the last duchy containing the capital can join another realm by 'pushing a button'. Even so, any merger of an entire realm by its original conception whether it is by by pushing a button or through the friendly takeover of all its regions outside of a war is not allowed.

This thread will remain open for a brief time to allow for any questions or clarification regarding the verdict.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Anaris on November 15, 2012, 08:57:05 PM
This is of only passing relevance to the case at this point, but I believe it is worth noting that the bug that allowed this has now been fixed.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Geronus on November 15, 2012, 09:06:31 PM
This is obviously late in coming, but here are my two cents on bug exploits:

Honestly, I think we need to consider taking a different stance on a bug like this. For one thing, it is NOT an obvious exploit. I suspect that very few players are long-standing enough or follow the forums closely enough to be expected to be aware of problems like this that are not obvious. After all, logically speaking there is no reason why a player should not assume that if:

1. The game has a button that says, "If you click this button, X will happen,"

2. The game allows him to click on said button

and

3. When he clicks on said button, X happens exactly as the game specified,

he is actually witnessing a bug in action. What reasonable person would leap to that conclusion? The game says nothing to indicate that what happened was not exactly what was supposed to happen. This is not the player's fault in any way. The game says you can do it, allows you to do it, then makes it happen when you tell it that's what you want! Where, in this picture, is a player supposed to get suspicious?

I was the ruler of Hammarsett who merged Shanandoah with Coria. I have been playing this game for going on five years and have been moderately active on the forums since they were brought online, and subscribed to the d-list before that, and I had no idea that it was a bug. The only reason I became aware of it was because I read a forum post shortly thereafter by Anaris where he stated in no uncertain terms that this was wrong behavior and said it was not possible, whereupon I filed the bug report. It has become my opinion that any bug that does not explicitly qualify as an obvious exploit is not a bug that we can punish players for taking advantage of, especially if it appears for all intents and purposes that the game is working as designed.

Considering dustole's known playing habits (he has long specified that he plays exclusively by phone) I do not think it is unreasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to whether or not he closely followed the forum threads where discussion of this bug took place. Nowhere in the Social Contract does it say that players are required to keep up with the forums. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but what is and is not a bug is not a matter of "law". The closest thing you get to "law" in BM is the IRs and the Social Contract, and not much else. This is not a case where dustole is pleading ignorance of the Social Contract, so that argument is irrelevant.

If you could prove to me that dustole knew that the ability to change the allegiance of Golden Farrow was a bug before he did it, I would vote to find him guilty. What Indirik said in the SA thread on the forum did not say it was a bug. What he said was:

Also, Kabrinskia only has one city and one duchy. Allison can't secede, nor change allegiance to another realm.

This does not say "That is a bug, you shouldn't do it." It says "You can't do it," which dustole quite correctly pointed it was not true after discovering this fact for himself. The Magistrate thread that Vellos cites was not posted in by dustole, thus you cannot prove that he ever read it or was even aware of it before this. As I stated in my post on the related Q&A thread, I am inclined to set a very high standard of proof for bug exploits.

However, it seems dustole was found guilty on other grounds.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Marlboro on November 15, 2012, 09:13:53 PM
A 3-day lock is more a punishment to everyone else in former Kabrinskia as it means at the very least three more days before Allison steps down and we can actually do something constructive with the duchy. And the city's set to starve in less than two days, oh joy.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Anaris on November 15, 2012, 09:14:42 PM
A 3-day lock is more a punishment to everyone else in former Kabrinskia as it means at the very least three more days before Allison steps down and we can actually do something constructive with the duchy. And the city's set to starve in less than two days, oh joy.

Wasn't she banned?
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Solari on November 15, 2012, 09:21:02 PM
A 3-day lock is more a punishment to everyone else in former Kabrinskia as it means at the very least three more days before Allison steps down and we can actually do something constructive with the duchy. And the city's set to starve in less than two days, oh joy.

I think you're going to find that it's impossible to for the duchy to "defect" back to Kabrinskia, even if the bug had not been fixed. The only option, IIRC, is to secede from Astrum.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Anaris on November 15, 2012, 09:21:27 PM
No, she is still in the ducal seat (and Lord of the city), except now it's an Astrum duchy.

So get Astrum to ban her.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Anaris on November 15, 2012, 09:26:57 PM
So the judge can execute her when she's unable to leave the realm because of the account lock? No thanks.

Because, of course, there's no way anyone could possibly resist something like that!!! Any player, when presented with someone whom they had been asked to ban because if they didn't their city would start to starve because they were unable to log in for totally OOC reasons, would obviously then do everything in his power to see her executed, even though he wouldn't have banned her in the first place without you asking!!! It's only common sense!!!!!!

...Well, or, y'know, you could trust that sometimes, just sometimes, people aren't absolute dicks.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Anaris on November 15, 2012, 09:31:51 PM
It's an OOC solution to an OOC problem, and IC bureaucracy is going to prevent it from being the expedient that's needed.

From what I know about what's going on IC, banning Allison from Astrum could be made to work perfectly well as an IC thing.

Quote
This judgement is an OOC punishment on Allison's former realm-mates.

No, it is not. It is a punishment on Allison.

Just because it happens to have the effect of delaying your ability to do what you want with the duchy does not mean that the judgment is a punishment on you. That is extremely small-minded and selfish thinking.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on November 15, 2012, 09:34:44 PM
From what I know about what's going on IC, banning Allison from Astrum could be made to work perfectly well as an IC thing.

No, it is not. It is a punishment on Allison.

Just because it happens to have the effect of delaying your ability to do what you want with the duchy does not mean that the judgment is a punishment on you. That is extremely small-minded and selfish thinking.

Oh, so making it so people can't play the game normally is supposed to be acceptable? Very well then.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Anaris on November 15, 2012, 09:57:37 PM
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Marlboro on November 15, 2012, 10:05:16 PM
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Draco Tanos on November 15, 2012, 10:45:56 PM
Get the nobles of the former realm together and have them approach the ruling council of Astrum.  Ask that Allison be banished and that one of their own be appointed as Duke.

I would suggest that this time when you secede, you do not allow it to be named after the family of Allison. =P
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Velax on November 16, 2012, 12:43:28 PM
Perhaps I'm misreading things here, but this decision seems to attempt to redefine what Tom has stated is a friendly realm merger:

Quote
A "friendly realm merger"...what I intend by those words is that I don't want realm A and realm B to sit together and say "hey, as one realm we would have better game mechanics on our side" or whatever, and then simply join up.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Draco Tanos on November 16, 2012, 12:53:42 PM
Which is what the Duchess attempted to do, no?  Approaching other realms (and merging anyway).  Perhaps it wasn't the true ruling council who was involved, but they didn't exactly get a say due to the bug, did they?
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on November 16, 2012, 01:30:11 PM
Actually, it was done without permission of anyone.
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: dustole on November 16, 2012, 02:13:32 PM
Gustave makes a good point there.  How can it be friendly when no one gave me permission and I am having to give up my Duchy, Lordship or Council positions or combination.  There was no equality in this merger.

How do I appeal?
Title: Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
Post by: Indirik on November 16, 2012, 02:15:56 PM
Send an email to Tom. There is no other appeal.